ROB: [00:00:00] Hi, Rach.

RACHEL: Hi, Rob.

ROB: Now listen, we've got two real veterans of the industry on today who've been in the industry for 20 years. So I wanted to ask you, what were you doing 20 years ago?

RACHEL: That's a good question. 20 years ago, um, I was 16, so I think my biggest concern was probably passing my driver's test the first, the first go around.

ROB: And did you?

RACHEL: I did, yeah. I'm, I'm actually a really good driver.

ROB: Have you got any points? Do you have points in the US?

RACHEL: Yeah. You, you, you can get points. Um, I've definitely had a few speeding tickets. I don't know what that looks like from a, from a points standpoint. But I mean, it's still a valid driver's license, so it can't be that bad.

ROB: They've not taken your car off you yet.

RACHEL: Exactly. It's still parked on the street.

ROB: Welcome back to another episode of Awin-Win Marketing Podcast, and once again, a warm welcome to Rachel Tyrer. Second episode in a row, [00:01:00] Rach. I think this is the third one you've done this year, how does it feel to be the, uh, the kind of featured co-host in 2026?

RACHEL: Honestly, I'm starting to feel a little special, um, and it feels like I live here now, so I'm happy to be back, and I think you're stuck with me.

ROB: I mean, you are very special, Rach.

RACHEL: Okay. Well, if you could just get me my own mic, that would be good.

So for today's episode, Rob and I sat down with UpSellit and eAccountable.

UpSellit is a conversion optimization and customer acquisition partner. They are one of our more popular technology partners. And then we had eAccountable, who is a US-based performance marketing agency, um, specializing in affiliate marketing and performance-driven growth.

ROB: That's right. And Rach and I actually sat down with these guys in Chicago at Think Tank, um, another one of the recordings that we managed to capture there in person, which was great.

And this one really stood out actually because it's such a long-standing partnership between the agency and the tech partner themselves, isn't it?

RACHEL: Yeah. I think it was really interesting to [00:02:00] hear from Jeremy how much the UpSellit solutions and products have changed over time. But generally speaking, their relationship has been a really important part of their success, working together, making sure their teams are working together.

I think that's something that is still a very important piece of affiliate marketing.

TERESA: We run affiliate and performance PR for our clients.

RACHEL: That's Teresa Grammatke, Senior Director at eAccountable.

TERESA: Every day you never know what it's going to be, but a good day would be, you know, meetings with clients to discuss their programs and optimizations, meeting publisher partners to, either it's discovering new ones or new ways to optimize with them, and then working with my team to make sure they are getting all the resources they need.

So we always, you know, like, get excited with success. It was when, you know, we're hitting their goals at a profitable way, whether [00:03:00] that means through a new partnership, new, new uses of it, um, it could be a press hit-

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: ... Um, things like that, so.

ROB: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And how long have you been in the industry for?

TERESA: I started in 2006.

ROB: Wow.

TERESA: Same, same year Jeremy did.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: We both started in 2006. Yeah, yeah. So a long time.

ROB: Yeah, yeah, veterans.

TERESA: Yes.

ROB: Jeremy, same question to you. What does a good day look like, and what's your role at UpSellit?

JEREMY: Well, when I don't feel like I'm a firefighter putting out fires.

RACHEL: And that's Jeremy Aaronson, Chief Revenue Officer at UpSellit.

JEREMY: A good day for me is starting the day with my UK team, talking with them-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... see what's going on over there. Um, talking about partnerships, what's working, what's not working.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And then kind of working through the day with my, my US team as well. So, you know, I've got 10 people here and five over in the UK, so it's really just keeping connected with them and see what's going on-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...and what's working.

ROB: And so can you describe for our listeners what it is in one sentence that UpSellit does?

JEREMY: Conversion rate optimization, full funnel strategy.

ROB: Yeah. Yeah.

JEREMY: Yeah. And- So really everything from top to bottom of the funnel, trying to get sales to stay on the site.

ROB: And how long has the business been [00:04:00] going for?

JEREMY: 20 years this last year.

ROB: Right. Yeah.

JEREMY: It's pretty wild.

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: Um, be my 20th year there this year.

ROB: Wow. So you were-

JEREMY: It's-

ROB: ... employee hire?

JEREMY: Number two.

ROB: Wow.

JEREMY: Yeah. And there was just four people playing games and- ... having fun, and then making it a real company.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: It's been a wild ride.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: And how about eAccountable?

How long has that company been going for?

TERESA: Uh, it started in 2000.

ROB: Okay.

TERESA: Yeah.

ROB: Oh, wow.

TERESA: Yeah, so quite a while.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: Yes.

ROB: And what is it that you do as a, as an agency? What's your focus?

TERESA: So it's all digital marketing. So I lead up, like, the affiliate p- performance PR side, but we have marketplace management-

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: ...we have paid, we have SEO, um, a little bit of everything, so.

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: So you guys have known each other for 20 years. How did you first start working together, and what made it a yes for both of you?

JEREMY: Well, we started working with eAccountable - trying to do the math on it, probably about 12 or so years ago.

A big part of when it was just me, when I was employee number one is, how do we build up a sales force without having a sales force, right?

RACHEL: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: And it was going to the networks and going to the agencies and saying, "Hey, we're, we're all in the same boat here trying [00:05:00] to drive sales for our clients. Let's work together and use our solutions for your clients," right?

So took a long time to get buy-in, especially when e-commerce wasn't, you know, back then still people were just sending traffic to a website and-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ...didn't really care about converting, and then there's kind of this convergence point of everyone realizing, well, we gotta actually convert and, and drive sales, right?

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: And so I think that was, they were one of the first ones we really kind of started doing that with. Um, yeah.

ROB: What was the single biggest block about that in terms of those conversations? Was it just literally-

JEREMY: Tech.

ROB: ... getting their head around the tech and, yeah.

JEREMY: Yeah, tech's always kind of been it, right?

Um, and then when we started doing the universal tags and whatnot-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... that was obviously a game changer. But back then was, how do we put the tag up? Who's gonna do it? How are we gonna, you know, how are we gonna do it, and do we have time to do it? Um, and, and as we know, marketing and tech sometimes don't, you know -

ROB: Speak the same language.

JEREMY: Yeah, exactly, um. And so they have different priorities, and so that was a, that definitely a big one.

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Then the market started turning, and here we are.

RACHEL: And Teresa, how did you find the start of the partnership with... Did your, did your team kind of immediately accept [00:06:00] kind of that role, or was it a learning curve?

TERESA: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think now it's more common, but you, you know, like 10, 12 years ago-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... people still just thought of affiliate as the traditional affiliates.

JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: And including a lot of our clients and the marketing teams, and so you come with them, to them with a totally different solution, but that's through affiliate.

It was a thing of, you know, like some, some of them got it, and some-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... are like, "This doesn't make... How is this affiliate?" And you're like, "It doesn't, you know, like, it doesn't have to be just like a, a cou- coupon site- A coupon ... or a- "

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: "...Loyalty site or whatever. Affiliate is so much more than that." And so it was exciting though.

Like, it, I mean, I personally, and I know like my team loves when there's something that's different to talk about.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: And bring these types of opportunities to clients, and it, you know, like when it makes sense, and they can provide the data to back it up, um, so. And I would say definitely agree though, like the tech was, it's cra- it's not a hard tech install, but it still can be the biggest -

JEREMY: And to give them-

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...Some props and kudos, and, and one of the reasons why we're [00:07:00] here together and talking is they've, they've been so good. We've been working with them for so long that it's-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ... it's seamless working with them in terms of their referrals to us, right? Like, they, their team gets it.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: And it's almost like, it's become almost just like a handoff where we don't have to sell it as much anymore either-

TERESA: Mm.

JEREMY: ...'cause your team does such a good job in just explaining what we do. 'Cause that's, again, one of the hardest things, too, is, again, we're not just a exit technology. We're not just this. We do so much more, and they get that.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: So it kind of makes the, the go live process a lot quicker.

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: And do you kind of have indicators from your side? Does your team kind of know, you know, a common problem that a brand will flag, or is it like an immediate kind of light bulb for them, or for your team to kind of say?

TERESA: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely like, there- there's definitely like the light bulb moments of, you know, if they bring up something about wanting to increase AOV, we're like, "Oh, the product recommendation makes sense."

And then there's some that it's really creative use of it. We have a, like a high-end linen client who really wanted to get away from sales and, you know, debranding, but they still had like this subset of customers who they knew just only [00:08:00] bought when stuff was on sale, and they wanted to do private sales through them.

And UpSellit has technology to help with that.

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: So it's, it's kind of, I love when it's like a unique solution like that, that is not what people think of always when they think of UpSellit.

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: It's like a very different thing, and it's f- a luxury client, and it's working fantastic for them, and they love it. So it solved a very unique problem.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: So what does that relationship look like in practice today? How do you actually collaborate between the two of you, particularly I guess when you are speaking to a prospective client about-

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

ROB: ... potentially working with UpSellit? How does that work in terms of pitching it to them, getting them introduced to Jeremy and the team, and then the handoff there between actually getting it live for a, for an actual advertiser?

TERESA: You know, if we see someone that we think is going to be a good fit, we'll reach out to one of Jeremy's team members, 'cause they can explain it way better than we can, you know?

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: And they're, and they're so good at, you know, walking people through all the data and each tool and what would work for them and following up with whatever they need and tailoring it specifically to the [00:09:00] client.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: So that's typically is- we're saying like, "This is the type of partnership where you wanna talk to them."

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: "And then you can truly ask them the deep questions and, and really make sure that we're picking the right products for you and implementing it the right way- "

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: "... That makes the most sense."

ROB: Yeah, yeah. And from your side, what does that process look like?

JEREMY: Yeah, the way I've always done these types of partnerships is it, it has to be kind of a one- one-on-one situation, right? So we really try to get our team to talk to their team-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... more one-on-one, like one person talking to one person, right? 'Cause they build that relationship.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And they know how each other works, and so that allows for the partnership, I think, to start at a very good place, right? Because when they're communicating and they understand how each other works or whatnot, it, it just makes, I think, the whole thing of going live seamless.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: So when they come with an idea saying, "Hey, this client, this is what we want for AOV," or, you know, new to file or whatever it may be. They, they already know solutions they've worked on together, and then kinda go from there.

ROB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TERESA: And then it's great because it's not just like it's turned on, it's always tweaking it-

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: ... And always adjusting it, [00:10:00] showing the reports- showing all of it. So it's very much an ongoing partnership, not just a-

JEREMY: Absolutely.

TERESA: ... we launched with them and now it's there.

JEREMY: Yeah. Never set it and forget it.

TERESA: It's always-

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: It's always changing.

ROB: Yeah. I wanted to go into a little bit more depth about what UpSellit actually is.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: Um, you hear a lot of people still talk about, like conversion tech, and they think about pop-ups or cart abandonment recovery solutions, et cetera. So could you give us a bit of backstory around the UpSellit story?

JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

ROB: Um, and-

JEREMY: How long you got?

ROB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

RACHEL: I've heard a lot of versions over the years- so it's, it's definitely evolved.

ROB: We'll see which one we get today.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: So, um, but what are the main kind of solution categories or buckets that you've got?

JEREMY: Yeah. I mean, I'll take a step back. So originally we started as a AI chatbot-

ROB: Okay.

JEREMY: ... 20 years ago.

ROB: Yeah. Which is obviously like, you know-

JEREMY: Um, natural language parsing, not AI as we know it today, obviously.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: But it's kind of crazy that it's come full circle.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And we don't even use that product anymore, right? It's just kind of sitting on the shelf.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Which is, it's mind-blowing, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, so that's really where we started, and that was before, really, e-commerce took off, like I said before.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, [00:11:00] but now it's, we did such a good job with cart abandonment-

ROB: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: ...and, and being in the cart that we have to constantly keep educating people that that's not all we do, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: 'Cause like I said, full funnel strategy is really, right? So-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ... entrance page, mid-level, and obviously cart is always a big one because it's the lowest hanging fruit, right?

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: People are there, they w- need a coupon, they wanna purchase, whatever.

But there is a lot more we can do-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ... beyond the coupon. And while we see, um, 68, 70% abandonment there, we're starting to see even more, you know, the abandonment's really happening on the product pages, PDP pages, right?

ROB: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: People are looking at products, they have five other tabs open, looking at competitors, similar type products.

They're confused about the pages they're on. So that's kind of been our big focus lately-

ROB: Mm-hmm, mm.

JEREMY: ... is how do we start taking in that 90% abandonment on there and leveraging that?

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: Um, so we're building products around that.

RACHEL: With the brands that you're working with, do you see them moving through different solutions?

Or typically when you start working with a brand, are they just kind of one solution and that's great to them?

JEREMY: No, they usually do move through solutions, right?

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: 'Cause they come in thinking they need one thing, right?

ROB: Mm.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Or we'll show them they need one thing. We always wanna take [00:12:00] a crawl, walk, run-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...You know, approach on things. So we always wanna start with one, right? But then we start showing data, right? We start looking at the data. How do we leverage that then for a new solution? Actually, we're, we're seeing this and we're seeing that. We actually have a way we can do a full analytic report on the website as well, and actually pinpoint where they're having the abandonment.

Not only the abandonment, it goes beyond what you were saying of not just being a cart. It's really about- Um, rules and how do we make the experience, let's say, special for that user, right? So we can actually take in data, see what they've done on the website, and use that to our advantage-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ... um, in how we execute as well.

ROB: Mm.

RACHEL: Yeah. I feel like you're in a very unique position-

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: ... because your solutions are constantly evolving-

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: ...And then it just, like, changes constantly what the, what that brand is looking for-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: ... you're kind of in a position to always have a different solution for what they need.

JEREMY: Exactly, and the fact that we have so many-

RACHEL: Yeah.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...Is sometimes-

RACHEL: Overwhelming.

JEREMY: ... sometimes not as overwhelming. Yeah. It's, right-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...and so you kinda have to narrow it down to a couple things. Then they're like, "Well, I didn't know you did this."

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Like, "Well, we didn't get to it all because- "

RACHEL: Right.

JEREMY: "...we didn't wanna overwhelm."

ROB: Yeah. I think that's always particularly interesting-

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: ...talking to technology partners-

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: ...Because they [00:13:00] often start off offering one narrowly targeted solution for a real customer pain point, and they build their success off of that, and their name, and their brand equity.

JEREMY: Exactly.

ROB: And that's a great gateway for them. Obviously, it's not the only thing that they end up doing because the more they speak to advertisers, the more they discover around the challenges that they face, the more they build things that can s- solve that for them.

JEREMY: Exactly.

ROB: But that then leads to this kinda dilemma that they've got as to, "Will people know me for this one thing? But actually I've got all of this other stuff that we've built and that we do. "

JEREMY: Exactly.

ROB: And how do you strike the right balance then around marketing yourselves in a way that is gonna speak to all of those different solutions, but is not gonna-

JEREMY: Exactly.

ROB: ... confuse and overwhelm the customer so they just kind of throw up their hands and go, "I don't really understand what you do."

JEREMY: Yep.

ROB: Is that, like, like-

JEREMY: You can, you can talk to our solution yourself.

ROB: Yeah, okay.

JEREMY: I think you got this.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: I think you got this.

RACHEL: Rob did his homework.

JEREMY: Right. And, but when you talk about, like, struggles we face as well, that, that's another big one, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And not only because they're like, "Well, I already do that."

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: "Well, you, you don't, right? Let us show you," right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Th- they won't even get on calls 'cause they're just convinced they do-

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: ...everything we do.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: [00:14:00] Well, let us show you, right? I'm sure you see that-

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...with the clients as well.

TERESA: They're like, "Oh, we can do that through our Shopify," or whatever.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: Oh, okay.

TERESA: And you're like, "Not really." Like, y- like, you can do a very paired down version-

JEREMY: Exactly.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: ... of what it is.

JEREMY: And they may do something, and that's great.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: Keep doing it, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: But let us show you a gap analysis. Let us show you what you're not doing-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...'cause there are levers that you can pull that you're not, you're not pulling yet, and let us show you how to do that.

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RACHEL: What would you say is like your most popular solution where you're like, "This is what people generally are coming to us for"?

JEREMY: We get that question a lot, and I actually turn that around. It, it kinda goes back to what Teresa said. It's really based around what the brand needs-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... Not necessarily the popular solution. 'Cause I can just ... I'll put a cart solution up all day long, exit-

RACHEL: Yep.

JEREMY: ... right? And that's where we make money, everyone will make money, that's great. But what is that gonna do for the brand? What is that gonna do for the user that's on the website? We really wanna curate an experience that is what the brand wants and needs.

So we'll actually talk to them and kinda turn it on them and say: "Where are you struggling? Where are you at? Let's, let's build that solution to that."

ROB: Mm.

RACHEL: Yeah.

ROB: Could you speak to a couple of the different solutions that are - maybe one that's much more narrowly focused on commercial outcomes-

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: ... and maybe another that is maybe more towards, like, a brand protection or brand protective solution?

JEREMY: Yeah. That's a great question. So again, going back to the cart, that's the easy one, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Throw a coupon up. We don't like to just throw a coupon up, but, like, pull in products. What [00:16:00] are you looking at? Let's get you over the threshold to free shipping. You know, put $25 more in your cart.

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: Right? And tho- those are great ones.

But when you talk about, like, a luxury purse or clothing brand or something-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... they are more protective, right? So a lot of that is usually based around more, like, scarcity or, uh, uh, social proofing, right?

ROB: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: Of your friend's buying it, you're not buying it, type of a thing, so we use a lot of that to get people to purchase as well.

ROB: Right. Okay.

JEREMY: So a lot of things that we can do for the brand that, you know, again, based on what they-

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: ... what they're, um-

ROB: 'Cause I imagine with those luxury brands as well, they might be a little bit more standoffish from working with a partner-

JEREMY: Yep.

ROB: ... where they think, like, "Oh, it's just conversion. It's just basically giving away margin."

JEREMY: Exactly.

ROB: But actually you can go to them and say, "No, no, it doesn't just have to be that. There's this other suite of solutions we've got here." So yeah.

JEREMY: Exactly. Let's focus on traffic sources, right? The, obviously affiliate's a big part, but we-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... we're on all the traffic, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: So maybe you're not connecting with social media traffic as well-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ...as you are with affiliate or, or vice versa, or, you know, PPC or whatever it may be.

ROB: Yeah. Yeah.

JEREMY: So we can focus on that as well.

ROB: When you do hear from brands who have objections about working with you what are the [00:17:00] common misconceptions that they maybe have?

JEREMY: Ooh, misconceptions. Again, just that we're cart, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Showing them more that we can do, um, that we're just coupon, so how we can, you know, leverage it without coupon. You know, limited inventory or out of stock, we can do stuff there too, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Like, once we're integrated on the site, there's so much we can see and so much data that we can leverage in a very useful and productive way.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, just kind of showing them that and then giving them the options to, you know, to do that.

RACHEL: I guess from the agency side, I'm sure-

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: ... if you are kind of talking about UpSellit and there's, like, any type of, like, skepticism-

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: ... how do you kind of overcome that? Do you have, maybe you guys have worked on case studies-

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: ...or you sound like you have the data.

TERESA: There's-

JEREMY: Yeah, how do you do it?

RACHEL: Yeah, how do you get Jeremy business?

TERESA: Well- What we always say is UpSellit is always open to do AB testing-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... and show the numbers.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: So I say, "Let's test it out" is-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... how we phrase it, and then they will do the incrementality study.

They will present the data. We'll do AB testing. We'll do all of it-

RACHEL: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: ...And then see if it actually is having an impact. And let's do baby steps too, we'll start with one product and then see what [00:18:00] they see, and maybe we need to tweak it here or there and, and move it around.

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: But, um, as long as you can back it with data, most people are then more comfortable to test it out.

RACHEL: Yeah. I think in my experience as well, just working with some brands like on the Awin side, it sometimes seems to overlap with other teams-

JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

RACHEL: Not just affiliate.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: Yes.

RACHEL: And I guess how do you guys deal with that on the agency side? Because for us, I, I do feel like that takes longer.

JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

RACHEL: It's a longer process than-

TERESA: Yeah, it is definitely.

RACHEL: ... a traditional partnership.

TERESA: Yeah. No, that, I mean, that definitely is, uh, is harder if you're not, if you're talking to like a more junior person. So we see if we can get-

RACHEL: Yeah,

yeah.

TERESA: ... like that person that's in charge of it on.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: Um, and just try to talk to the right person.

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: 'Cause the reality is that they could look better too then-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... because of it, so.

JEREMY: Absolutely.

TERESA: Or just e-commerce in general, like it helps, it lifts everything, so.

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: I think that's almost the first hurdle before getting-

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: ... to the testing.

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: It's like how do you get the buy-in-

TERESA: Make sure it's the right person.

RACHEL: ...on the brand side.

JEREMY: Mm.

RACHEL: And I guess if I was a brand, like who would I need to go to within that company?

I don't know. It just seems like so many different teams, I guess, in my experience -

TERESA: Yeah, and every team is [00:19:00] structured differently too.

JEREMY: Right.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: So it's like sometimes it is e-commerce, sometimes it's the VP of marketing or, you know, like it's-

JEREMY: Or CRM.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: I think that goes back to what, you know, we were talking about before and why people just think we're one thing, especially in this space, right?

Because if we do need to work with the CRM team, we're not necessarily doing email through-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... I mean, we're doing it through affiliate, but they-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... May not, you know, see much of that, right? So they don't really think that we do emailing as, as well.

RACHEL: Yeah.

ROB: I take it, Teresa, you're working with like a whole bunch of different types of advertiser in terms of size, scale, sector.

TERESA: Absolutely.

ROB: How do some of those factors play a role in having that conversation? Because I imagine, you know, big multinational enterprise brand, that's a very different conversation maybe to a smaller local- Uh, organization that maybe only has, like, 10, 15 people working on the company.

TERESA: It is, but it's always, there's not always rhyme or reason to it.

Because we actually do have a big international billion-dollar brand that is using UpSellit.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: And it can be really hard to get stuff implemented there, but we-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... got in front of the right person then, and then it was great.

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: And then we have small ones who just, like, can't wrap their [00:20:00] heads around it or for whatever reason.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: Or, like, just want us, pay the minimal amount for everything that they can.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: So and then sometimes those are the easiest ones 'cause it's, they can implement it easily themselves, right?

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: Or, you know, like-

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: ...so it's the size, or the industry sometimes doesn't even matter. It's literally just how it's structured and-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason, for sure.

TERESA: Exactly.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: So you just never know what you're gonna get.

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

RACHEL: Going back to kind of the incrementality and the A/B testing-

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: ...that you were talking about, what does good measurement look like? How do you kind of set a baseline?

JEREMY: Honestly, for us, it's, it's fairly easy. We do 50/50 usually to start, so 50% will get our solution, and 50% will not.

RACHEL: Okay.

JEREMY: And so we'll do a holdout group.

RACHEL: Yep.

JEREMY: Um, and obviously at the end of the day, our stats better be better than the ones who didn't get our solution, right?

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, but we can, you know, we can send it back to, like, G4. We can send it back to, you know, however they're tracking, or we can do it off of their tracking. So there's lots of different ways that we can, um, we can use third-party tools that they use to, to do their incremental lift testing, or we have our own solution. Um, so really, again, it's the client and what they have the appetite to do, or, you know, what they can do internally.

RACHEL: [00:21:00] Yeah. I mean, I think that's unique that you're willing to also use kind of, like, their tools as well. Mm. I think that probably helps with building-

JEREMY: With the trust, right?

RACHEL: ... trust and confidence.

JEREMY: Yeah. If we don't have trust in the beginning, they're not gonna stay around long, right?

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: And we're not about churn and burn.

We have ... We've been doing this for 20 years for a reason, right?

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Like, so.

ROB: I think, yeah, I think that that probably happens less so these days, but there was almost, like, a deluge of dashboards. Every new partner has its own dashboard.

JEREMY: Yep.

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

ROB: And suddenly the client has to go log in, familiarize themselves, educate themselves about how to use the reporting, what it means in the context of what they're trying to achieve.

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

ROB: And it ends up being a bit of a, a kind of extra burden on the client-

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: ...rather than being supportive. And so to your point, I think that that's really helpful that you're kind of effectively aligning with what they do already, right?

JEREMY: And that's what we wanted to do, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: That you said, uh-

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...you said it great. Like, we wanted it to go on their dashboards.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: 'Cause we had s- people like, "Oh, you have stats. You can do reporting when we're onboarding." Yeah, we can. And then we go, and we see they've never logged in.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Right?

ROB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: They've never actually gone to look at the stats.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Even though, like, that was, like, the number-one thing they wanted, right?

RACHEL: The number-one ask.

JEREMY: So if we can offer to push it through their reporting, and they can see it [00:22:00] in one place, it's makes it easier, for sure.

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: With that, do you guys kind of offer as well ... I, I mean, it seems like you talk a lot directly with the brands.

JEREMY: I just talk a lot in general.

RACHEL: No. No, no, no. Like, d- directly speaking with the brands, I mean, obviously you hear a lot, but do you offer that, like, kind of management on your side?

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: Do you have people kind of assigned to accounts specifically?

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: Just is there any qualifications to-

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: ...get service from your team, or, or what do reports look like?

JEREMY: So we think of ourselves as, like, a white-glove service.

RACHEL: Okay.

JEREMY: Um, an agency type for conversion and optimization, right? And so that is really being with them, do the whole process, right? If they do qualify, and I'll get to that in a sec, but in terms of they meet minimums, which we talk about, um, and then they get a, a person who helps onboard them, a full onboarding team-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, makes sure everything gets live, makes sure the process is smooth all the way through. They will then go through a first or second solution with them as well if they can.

RACHEL: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: But we've got another team behind the scenes that works with them to look and say, "Okay, here's the stats. Let's look for what other solutions are gonna work," [00:23:00] and then put together a presentation for them on the next solutions, right?

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: So it's not, again ... Now, we do have the clients who are like, "I don't care. Let's just keep this running."

RACHEL: Right.

JEREMY: "We're good with it."

RACHEL: It's working.

JEREMY: "We're good with it. It's working. We don't need anything else."

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: That's great.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: But we wanna show that we're bringing the value all the time-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...even if they don't do it.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, and then if they qualify, they'll get a full CSM team as well. Um, which they're constantly going through and updating and whatever, so. That's a lot of things, again, people don't know that we necessarily have.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: They think they're just putting up a solution. It's, it's a big difference from just putting up a, a Shopify app.

RACHEL: Right.

JEREMY: Or putting up some other kind of do it yourself model.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Because that costs as well, right? You gotta have a full team behind that. You gotta, they gotta pull the levers and do it, and they get that for us, you know-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... on a performance basis.

RACHEL: I mean, I think that's a huge USP, 'cause I can also imagine, like... I think sometimes when you're on the brand side running the affiliate channel, there's just so much that goes into it.

JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

RACHEL: So any extra service or, like, team that you can put behind it, makes it less intimidating.

JEREMY: But even then, people are like, "Well, I still have to do this, and I have to do that." Like, you know?

RACHEL: Right.

JEREMY: We're trying to do all that for you.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: Like, we're trying to take something off your plate.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: And they still fight us on it. But then we get live, [00:24:00] and we do it, like, "Man, I wish I did this sooner."

RACHEL: Sooner.

TERESA: Well, and it's like updating the creative-

JEREMY: You actually...

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ... and stuff like that.

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: Like, which is so helpful. And they-

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: ...they take the feedback from the brands, but then they do it and show it, and they have input on every step of it, of what it's going to look like-

JEREMY: Exactly.

TERESA: ...and everything, but they're the ones that do it, so.

RACHEL: Yeah.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: Which is a lot.

ROB: What is it like from your side, Teresa, in terms of, um, the incrementality question, good measurement when you're dealing with this type of tech partner for a client? Do you have certain guardrails or benchmarks for what you would be expecting?

TERESA: Well, we definitely always say let's do the A/B testing-

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: ... to see if it has any impact. It's hard because nothing happens in a bubble, so, like, ultimately you would say, like, has your e-commerce conversion, you know, like-

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: ...increased overall?

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: And hopefully yes, but we also know there's a million things happening-

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ...in the world and other channels that also impact that. So I think that that is why it's so important that they do that. Because it's, otherwise it's really hard to measure.

ROB: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: And their clients generally stay with us for a pretty long time.

TERESA: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely.

JEREMY: Long value with them.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: Definitely.

ROB: Have you, [00:25:00] Jeremy, seen, is there, like, one result or a, a kind of pattern that you've seen in, like, um, lift that is a recurring feature in these?

JEREMY: No.

ROB: No.

JEREMY: I wish there was.

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: I wish there was, right?

RACHEL: There's no cheat code.

JEREMY: I mean, think about it, right? Everyone-

TERESA: Make your life easier.

JEREMY: ... drives different traffic sources, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And it, it's changing constantly, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. They switch things up. Like, there's... I wish there was.

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

RACHEL: Teresa, you probably hear this all the time from brands.

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

RACHEL: But content partners are more and more becoming a focus for brands. How do you guys kind of balance that conversation between leveraging conversion technology but also protecting the content partners within affiliate programs? I guess, how do you kind of balance that?

TERESA: Yeah. Tools like Softclick are g- fantastic, but it's just, I think it's really in how you manage those relationships with the content partners and how you structure them. You know, like, you do the things, you definitely pay higher commission, but you can also pay in other ways too.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: Like CPC or-

RACHEL: Yep.

TERESA: ...you know, like hybrids or, you know, like, have other goals around them in how you're working with them. So I think that that's-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ... that's a lot, lot of it, is like a lot of our partnerships are [00:26:00] CPC.

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: Or if we understand, if they see, you know, like, see, see it but they understand, like, okay, no, there are rules in place, that you will still get the credit.

Could be how you structure your commission attribution. There's a lot of different ways to understand it, and we can say, look, it helps you in the long term as well.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: So.

ROB: Have you noticed in recent years a diversification trend towards more hybrid models or alternative non-CPAs-

TERESA: Yes.

ROB: ... Uh, payment? Yeah.

TERESA: Yeah. I think brands really, really want it and understand the value, and it also just kinda changes the conversation 'cause content is more open then, and you can have more say over what it's going to be and have more control, and that's super important.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: I mean, now with the, with the impact of the content on LLMs, that's-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: Totally changing the conversation where people are willing to spend a lot more on, on, on that, and they're less even concerned about if, like, another partner is getting commission because they're, you know, like, it's such a huge value of just having that, so they will just spend for it.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: So in the last few months, it's definitely changed.

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: Does [00:27:00] that kind of, like, mixed model come with challenges in terms of, I'm sure you monitor budget spend and, and things like that, kind of forecasting.

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: Do you find that... How do you tackle that as a team?

TERESA: We honestly report kinda differently for those.

RACHEL: Okay.

TERESA: Like, so the content is a totally different-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: ...discussion in how we report. And now we're working extremely close with our SEO team-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ...to talk about the value and citation authority and showing that impact as well. So it's all-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: It's all different. Yes.

ROB: Has that already started to have an impact on your recruitment of certain partners or your kind of tactics for a program?

TERESA: Yeah.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: Yeah, we're working with them to say, like, if the client asks us specifically about that-

RACHEL: Mm.

TERESA: ...we, we work with our SEO team to say which publication they want to show up for these results or these products. Which one should we partner with to help them get there?

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: And that's, it's definitely having a big impact-

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: ...on how we're, how we're working.

ROB: And Jeremy, from, on the same topic, like, what are you seeing in that regard? Because a partner like, uh, UpSellit, [00:28:00] not really kind of affected by referral traffic and-

JEREMY: Mm.

ROB: ... you know, where traffic sources are coming from. So all of this content that's being taken from maybe other affiliates-

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: ...and has been brought together and synthesized into prompt responses, that's obviously a major implication for the wider affiliate industry.

JEREMY: Sure.

ROB: On-site solutions, obviously less affected by that. Are there, are you seeing secondary, like, um, effects though, uh, from the changing behavior around LLM search?

JEREMY: Um, not necessarily yet, but kinda going back to the fact that they deal with lots of different people, right? We wanna be very cognizant of that-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... as, as a tech publisher. Um, so we will suppress all that type of traffic if we need to, right? So if they're just like, "Hey, this content publisher is just - they, they just don't want this type of solution on the site when they're driving the traffic."

ROB: Right.

JEREMY: We'll suppress specifically on that affiliate.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: So we have that ability. So that kind, that's kind of, I guess, where we-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...kind of are in that ecosystem, if you will.

ROB: Yeah. And have you seen, like, traffic volumes generally kind of, um, decline at all with the onset of LLM search, or conversion rates increasing or?

JEREMY: Not that we've seen yet. Um, we probably should look at that data. [00:29:00] Um, but no, not, not that we've seen quite yet. Not yet. But no.

ROB: Yeah. I mean, it's early days obviously, so yeah.

JEREMY: It's early days, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: But w- we're very well aware that something's gonna come down, right?

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: There is gonna be a change.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: Um, but we haven't blatantly seen it yet.

ROB: No.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: Okay. That's interesting.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: And so where does Softclick and the MasterTag actually help in making tech partnerships easier or more responsible to run, do you think?

TERESA: I mean, the MasterTag is huge-

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: ...'cause that, you see that tech can be the biggest, uh-

RACHEL: Impedement?

TERESA: ... biggest hurdle.

JEREMY: Yeah, it was a game changer.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: Honestly, game changer.

TERESA: No, biggest hurdle. And so when, you know, like if someone's on Awin and has the MasterTag capabilities, I'm like, this is fantastic.

ROB: Mm.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: Like, it's so easy-

JEREMY: Yep.

TERESA: ...to test this out and try it.

JEREMY: And, and you all have one of the easiest ones, I mean, honestly. Like not just 'cause I'm doing this here.

RACHEL: I was gonna say snip that.

ROB: Say it to the camera. Yeah.

JEREMY: Right. Um, but really, and it's so easy for the-

TERESA: Mm.

JEREMY: ...the client to do it, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: I mean, it's a couple clicks, and it's, it's up.

ROB: When you're speaking to brands about, you know, the prospect of working with a tech partner like UpSellit, is that part of the pitch, you know, it's, it's easy?

TERESA: Yes.

ROB: It's... Yeah.

TERESA: Yes, definitely, 'cause the [00:30:00] marketing team knows.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: They're like, "Oh, if I have to get this on the calendar- "

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: "...it could be six months from now."

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: And, and they have, they might have other priorities that, you know, like they, you have to pick your battles.

JEREMY: Yeah.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: And, and so they have to, you know, like work through that.

So anytime it's-

JEREMY: My team-

TERESA: ...anything, you can remove any friction.

JEREMY: Yeah, sorry.

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: And my team will actually go through the client roster with them, and we'll actually pick those out first.

ROB: Oh, okay.

JEREMY: We'll go through and say-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...Well, this is the, this is the easiest, right?

RACHEL: The target list.

JEREMY: Yeah. It's gonna be easier than trying to get it up through GTM or-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...them doing it themselves, so let's, let's go through the ones that are on Awin that have the, you know, the, the master tag.

ROB: Yeah.

RACHEL: And I guess if they do have the master tag, what's the typical lead time when someone decides, "We wanna work with you"?

JEREMY: I mean, it should be quick, but again, it's still-

RACHEL: Okay.

JEREMY: They have other priorities or whatnot as well, but-

RACHEL: Well, there's the creative and stuff too.

JEREMY: No, for us-

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: For us, it's about a two-week process-

RACHEL: Okay.

JEREMY: ... once, once they get the tag up.

RACHEL: Okay.

JEREMY: Um, sometimes shorter, sometimes not, depending.

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: But, you know, we wanna take our time. Like she said, we, we want the client to approve everything, right?

So the creative's gotta go to them first. That may take another extra week because the creative department's backed up, and they have to give their stamp of approval. Or sometimes, we have [00:31:00] clients that wanna do their own creative. It's a-

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: ... It's a very, you know, luxury brand-

RACHEL: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...and they have very strict rules.

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: I mean, we had one client that gave us, like, a 250-page brand guideline one time, right? Like- ... it's, it's wild.

ROB: You read it all?

JEREMY: Like logo size - what's that?

ROB: You read it all?

RACHEL: You read everything?

JEREMY: Yeah, right. Yeah, every word of it. Um, so it just depends, right?

RACHEL: I mean, that's still a really short lead time, though, for-

JEREMY: Yeah.

RACHEL: ...a tag solution, two weeks is-

JEREMY: Tell, tell our clients that.

RACHEL: That's re- Yeah.

ROB: Yeah, yeah.

JEREMY: They always want it quicker.

RACHEL: You can clip that for your s-

JEREMY: Right, exactly.

ROB: Yeah. When you look at the next 12 to 18 months, what is it that's changing fastest, do you think, in how brands think about partnership marketing more generally?

TERESA: I mean, I talked somewhat about this already, but it, that implosion with LLMs has been really big. Like, we're literally getting brands signing up for affiliate just for that reason-

ROB: Okay.

TERESA: ... honestly like, ones that never did it before, but they-

ROB: Oh, so they actually see it as a kind of-

TERESA: Yes.

ROB: ...spur to in- investigate.

TERESA: Yep, yeah.

ROB: And is that because they see... Obviously, a lot of the analysis that's being done at the moment is talking about this idea that it's not just about tier one publications anymore.

It's you need to kinda get your name out there-

TERESA: [00:32:00] Yeah.

ROB: ... being referred to by other external third-party sources. Yeah.

TERESA: Yeah. Yeah. Higher-ups are saying, "How do we get into these?"

RACHEL: Mm-hmm.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: You know? And, and it's affiliate links.

RACHEL: And the easiest way is through affiliate. I think-

TERESA: Yeah, it's such an easy way to do it.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: So, um-

RACHEL: I would say-

TERESA: ... it's been huge. Yeah.

RACHEL: The largest content partners, I would say, are requiring the use of affiliate links. And, like, you have-

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: ... to have an affiliate program to be featured-

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: ...with those larger content partners.

TERESA: Yeah, yeah.

ROB: Mm.

RACHEL: So it's kind of opening up a lot of brands to the affiliate space-

TERESA: It is.

RACHEL: ...that usually might not come into the space.

TERESA: Or, or and opening budgets too.

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: It's a lot of people that never would have spent on these type of partnerships, all of a sudden have the money now and it-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ...or, or they're moving it from, if you look at, you know, like, paid search volume has gone down.

ROB: Mm-hmm.

TERESA: So they have budget there, so they're moving budgets from that into affiliate-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ...a lot of times, which is interesting. And we see it because we do both, so we actually, you know, like, are doing that for clients, or that's a lot of times how these conversations come up-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ...um, from our SEO team. So, like, we've had SEO clients that we weren't doing affiliate for that we now are because-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ...it was part of that [00:33:00] strategy.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: So it's super interesting. The tracking is the part that I am like, that I cannot wait for the solution for that to be figured out. And I know, like-

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: ... What Adam was saying, the age of triangulation, like, it's really complex-

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: ... and it's really hard, but I really w- am hopeful for the day when we can actually show, like-

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: ...you know, like, between that and zero click, so much of the value of affiliate is not being tracked right now.

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: So I think it's- one it's the solution to help fix that, but it's also, we just have to talk about our value different. I know we're a performance and we've always talked about time to click, but we have to talk about, more about you're reaching these demographics on this site.

Like you do in more traditional brand marketing.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: And that brand value and alignment. And I know impressions cannot be tracked. You know, like, there's a lot of reasons impressions aren't tracked in affiliate, but also, like, it is in, at every other channel. Like, and, well, I know PR people talk about it all the time.

The PR reports are full of-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ... the reach you had. You know, like, we're undervaluing ourselves if we're not talking about [00:34:00] the channel in that way as well.

ROB: Yeah.

TERESA: So I think it's a combination of we have to get the tracking there to show it, and show the influence on the purchase when no click happens, but also just talk about- Like, hey, you know, if you're on this publisher, here are their demographics.

It's matching exactly who you're trying to reach. So things like that, too, like just expanding what we're doing for affiliate. 'Cause the channel has way expanded, and I think we're still s- so much tying it to sales and everything, that it's beyond that.

ROB: Same question to you though, Jeremy, just to talk about, like, the future of the industry in the, the near term at least, 12 to 18 months ahead. How's it-

JEREMY: I, I think she hit the nail on the head on a lot of it, right? I think affiliate's been at a crossroads for a little bit in terms of becoming, like, mainstream, right? We've... I think, I don't know, I, I feel like we've always been kind of, like, nice to have, right?

ROB: Mm.

JEREMY: Other departments have kind of come first, and I think we can really push affiliate more into the mainstream with what's happening with AI and-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... how we can leverage it. And again, going beyond the click, and how do we do that? And it kind of goes back to partnerships, not just, you know, us talking together, but networks talking together, agencies talking together. Like, what are they [00:35:00] doing to make it work, right? 'Cause we're all in the same boat together, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And I think that's a big part of where we're at, is we get to that next level, and I think it's, if we can figure it out, it, it'll be good for the industry.

RACHEL: Okay. And question for both of you.

JEREMY: Mm-hmm.

RACHEL: Um, if you had to persuade a CEO or a CFO that this channel is more than just last click-

what would you say in 20 seconds?

ROB: Go.

RACHEL: Jeremy. Start the timer.

JEREMY: I, I, I would say just look at what happened during COVID, right? Like, people came to us. We were performance-based, like. I think a lot of CEOs still don't really get that, right? Is, is how do we talk them into that, of like, performance-based is a good way to go.

You're, you're getting what you pay for, right? And the incrementality is there if done right, and all that good stuff.

ROB: Do you think those are slightly different conversations that you'd be having with a CFO versus a CEO or is it pretty much the same?

JEREMY: I think it's education, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: I think that's how I see it, right?

'Cause usually when I go to a CEO, they're like, "Well, go talk to so-and-so." I, I don't-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... I don't really know much about that, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: So it's a full education.

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And sometimes tough for us, 'cause we're like, "Well, this is easy," right? But to them it's like Greek, right? [00:36:00] Or, you know- ... a, a foreign language, right?

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: And so it's kinda just education-

ROB: Yeah.

JEREMY: ...continuing. But maybe the AI stuff's gonna push it, 'cause like you were saying, right? CEOs and other people are coming and saying-

TERESA: Yeah.

JEREMY: ... "Well, I need to start doing this. I need to start doing that."

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: Mm-hmm.

JEREMY: And maybe that forces the conversation on affiliate.

ROB: Yeah. How about you, Teresa?

TERESA: I think I would say you don't have the right partners if you think that. So c- just walking 'em-

JEREMY: yeah.

TERESA: ...through, like, an Upsell it or like a TV Scientific-

ROB: Mm.

TERESA: ...or all the content sites out there. There's so many others that, you know, like, if they really took the time and looked at who's in the affiliate space, they would understand it's not.

So, it-

RACHEL: Yeah.

TERESA: Education-

JEREMY: Yeah.

TERESA: ... I think, too.

RACHEL: And to your point, it's maybe even highlighting that it's not just last click.

TERESA: Yeah.

RACHEL: Like, all the other models that you were just talking about earlier.

TERESA: Yeah.

ROB: Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Awin-Win Marketing Podcast, which incidentally is the last one in the series.

Congrats, Rach. You've made it all the way to the end. Tell me, how have you, uh, how have you enjoyed this series?

RACHEL: I think it's been really fun. I think what's made this series especially [00:37:00] interesting, aside from me joining a few episodes, of course-

ROB: Of course.

RACHEL: ...um, is hearing the different perspectives from across the industry.

It's been nice to take a step back from the day-to-day and really have conversations that dive deep into where the space is actually heading this year and next year. And then, um, stay tuned for season four because it's not far off. Um, we've already got a great lineup of interviews in the can, and there are some really exciting partnerships and industry conversations that we'll be spotlighting.

ROB: Yeah, that's right. So make sure you are subscribed for those. And also, look out for our special Power 100 episode coming out before then, where you'll get to meet a selection of partners that have featured in this year's esteemed list.

RACHEL: Until next time, thanks for listening to Awin-Win Marketing Podcast, where we show you how affiliate marketing always offers a win-win.

ROB: Goodbye.

BLOOPER
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PRODUCER: Everybody's phones on silent?

ROB: Good question.

RACHEL: Mine's outside.

TERESA: Mine's outside too.

JEREMY: Mine's usually on silent, but yeah.

TERESA: Talk about- oh, the ding?

ROB: My, [00:38:00] my phone just dinged.

JEREMY: Oh, did it?

RACHEL: Rob.

ROB: I know. I-

RACHEL: You're supposed to be the expert!

TERESA: Do I have to do my TED Talk again?

JEREMY: I was gonna say, that was so good, too.

TERESA: Oh, I could redo my TED Talk.

ROB: Yeah. So we're gonna take this whole interview from the top, yeah?

JEREMY: Oh, man.