Jessica Wickham (00:01.224)
Yes, I've just counted down an action.

Paul Ashcroft (00:06.67)
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Curious Advantage podcast. My name is Paul Ashcroft. I'm here today with my co-author, Garak Jones. Hi, Garak. Simon can't be with us, unfortunately, but today we are delighted to be joined by Dr. Laura Cicola. Hi, Laura.

GAJ (00:14.84)
Bye now.

Dr. Laura Sicola (00:23.122)
Hi, Paul. Thank you so much for the invitation and Garrick, it's great to meet you as well.

Paul Ashcroft (00:27.768)
Great to have you here. Laura is an executive communication coach, three-time TEDx speaker, and author of Speaking to Influence, Mastering Your Leadership Voice. A cognitive linguist by training and a former faculty member of the University of Pennsylvania, Laura helps leaders communicate with confidence, clarity, and executive presence in high-stakes moments, from boardrooms and media interviews to investor meetings and organizational change. Her work helps leaders command the room.

connect with our audience and make sure their message lands. Her TEDx talk has reached over 7 million views and she's worked with organizations including Amazon, Intel, HP and the US Department of Commerce. Well, Laura, it's a pleasure to have you here. We're really looking forward to this conversation. Let's get straight into it. We'll start where we always start, talking about curiosity. What would be your definition of curiosity and...

What's been the role of curiosity in your life and work over the years?

Dr. Laura Sicola (01:26.912)
For me, very simply, Paul, curiosity is whatever gets your wheels turning, whatever is something that makes you what kind of compels you to keep digging. And for me that's what makes people tick. I have always had an obsession with trying to understand what was going on in other people's minds and what compelled them to say something a certain way or interpret something a different way and and the quest keeps going.

Paul Ashcroft (01:52.751)
we'd agree with that. In your introduction, we mentioned the leadership voice. For listeners who are new to your work, what does it mean to have a leadership voice? And how is that different from simply being a good public speaker or confident presenter?

Dr. Laura Sicola (01:58.591)
Mm.

Dr. Laura Sicola (02:08.403)
The leadership voice is actually two parts. There is the literal voice and there's the figurative voice. And the the literal leadership voice is the instrument that you are born with, your your physical voice and how well you learn to play it, whether you were born with a trumpet or a piccolo or a tuba one way or another. It's

Can you use it? Because the way that you use your voice does change how a message lands, how it resonates with someone else. So learning to deliver your message well is an important component. The figurative voice, for those of you who are authors, you may refer to it as your author's voice. What is your point of view? What is, are you clear on the point that you're trying to make and can you articulate it? Can you put it together in a way that makes sense from the

perspective of the audience that you want it to to connect with. So when you can do both the you've got a clear message that you want to convey and you deliver it well, that is the beauty of the leadership voice.

GAJ (03:12.12)
I'm always interested in where people come from and what they've studied and how we take these amazing journeys through our lives. You're a cognitive communicator, you're a cognitive linguist. How did being a cognitive linguist bring you to this point?

Dr. Laura Sicola (03:29.871)
The original focus for me in in the research in my academic life many moons ago was looking at how people learn. So from the pedagogical learning perspective, when you're trying to teach and really teaching and training and explaining and

All of those words really mean the same thing. It's you've got information and you need to convey it to someone else. You're looking in many ways to put the square peg of your information into the round hole of someone else's brain. And understanding what is it about the way that you structure your instruction or your explanation so that it does or doesn't click.

with that other person? How do you identify the moments when something clicks and then reverse engineer it a bit to figure out what is it that made that happen this time? That's all been where I started from. And that's a it actually quite a natural transition into leadership coaching and training. It's just a different audience.

GAJ (04:33.046)
And it's natural, of course, the link to speaking with influence. Speaking to influence is the name of your book, the latest one. Influence can sometimes sound like persuasion or performance or even manipulation. But you're talking about how do you use language to click with somebody? What is it that causes somebody to be clicked with, if you know what mean? What is the thing that enables us to put that square peg?

Dr. Laura Sicola (04:39.785)
Yes.

GAJ (05:02.678)
in a round hole with someone else.

Dr. Laura Sicola (05:05.255)
I'm going to preface the answer Garrick with what I like to tell my audiences or my my training teams that I'm going to give you the most annoying teacher answer ever, which is it depends. Because there isn't just the one thing that makes it work. And that's really the the key is understanding that it's not just one thing. I can't stand it when people will say, well, we don't really want to do a training with we just want to can you give us a few tips and tricks.

GAJ (05:17.414)
You

Dr. Laura Sicola (05:34.898)
No, because I'm not a magician. I will tell show them all the time. See this pen? It's a pen, not a wand. So if you want tricks, go to YouTube and get, you know, a a five minute quick short of some sort. But if you're looking to l up level your true skill and effectiveness as a leader, then it is understanding that it always depends.

Who are you talking to? What is the nature of the information? How sensitive is it? What time of day is it? Have they eaten anything in the last six hours? Have they had back-to-back meetings for six hours straight? And they're just bleary-eyed at this point. Try fresh tomorrow morning. There there's so many different factors. And when we fail to acknowledge any of them, much less all of them, we're almost guaranteeing that it's not going to land the way that we want it to land. And I think it's important to

separate also some of those terms that you use that people do tend to think of as almost synonymous the influence, manipulation, persuasion, performance. Can can we just real quick dissect and distinguish between them? Because I think that's key. So the influence in general is just impact. What how do you want to move something? Manipulation is about intent. More often than not, manipulation is about running your agenda

on someone else in a way that is typically not in their best interest. It's in yours. Now that can be a little bit different if you've got children or something. I've got a l a young son, he is still the poster child for reverse psychology. If I want to get him not if I want to get him to eat vegetables, I'd have to say, I made these for me and I really don't want to share them. I guarantee at least four spoonfuls will go into his mouth. So is it manipulative? Sure, but it's not in it's not against his best interest.

Persuasion is about getting someone to agree with or concede to a specific idea or a specific concept. And performance is getting someone to act in a certain way that may f may or may not feel sincere. And that again will depend on the rest of the context. So influence in general is neutral. It's not about positive or negative. Manipulation tends to be more negative in its connotation. So it's what is the intent of the user?

GAJ (07:55.394)
Mm.

Dr. Laura Sicola (07:56.137)
As to how we interpret it.

GAJ (07:57.836)
That's fascinating. We talk about context a lot, especially in the when it comes to curiosity and how you start by defining your context. We had a great podcast the other day with the guy who trains the Navy SEALs in the US. And he talked a lot about situational awareness, which we thought of as very similar to context. People having to enter a room very quickly have a situational awareness of what's going on and come to the right decision, make a decision and act.

And you talk about similar things about the need to be aware of where the person is, what they're experiencing, where they've come from, where they're at today in this moment so that you can click with them. Do you have any other suggestions or any other hints that are useful for us to understand the context that someone may be inhabiting in that moment so that you can speak in a way that lands with them?

Dr. Laura Sicola (08:33.033)
Course.

Dr. Laura Sicola (08:57.299)
The one of the questions that is always useful to ask yourself in advance is does this person or not does this, but what preconceived notions might this person have about me or about the topic that I'm going to that I need to address with them? What are their assumptions walking into this? So is it something where they've already had four people yelling at them, giving them different instructions and different priorities?

Do they feel like this is something that is mission critical to them, to the company, to you, or is it just yet another hassle that someone else decided to create because somebody needed yet another box to check, right? What is the what is the requirement here? when you can understand and just have that moment of empathy, that moment of emotional intelligence to say, what is their lens?

Before we even get started, and then readjust your approach, i I guarantee you're going to end up much better off than where you would have had you just gone in right in with the here's what I need you to know unidirectional approach to it. That never ends well.

GAJ (10:15.874)
hear you.

Paul Ashcroft (10:16.492)
ask about a couple of ideas within that. you're talking about as a communicator, as leader tailoring essentially and using the voice you've got to best connect with your audience or the person you're communicating to. I know you've said that.

Authenticity is one of the most important things, but it's not the same as just staying inside your comfort zone. It is, I presume, getting out there and exploring more of your own communication. You also talk about, and I love this, the prismatic voice, the idea that you have different colors, if I understand it correctly, in your spectrum, that you can shine in different degrees more brightly. But how does that connect if you're trying to tailor what you're doing to meet your audience?

and thinking about the different elements you can bring into your communication because there's a few things there to unpack together to then be authentic and consistent in the way you communicate, right?

Dr. Laura Sicola (11:13.683)
Yes, there is quite a bit in that, isn't there? It's kind of like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach and walk and chew gum all at the same time. The break it down. So first let's let's go back to your original point that of is authenticity the same as comfort zone? And of course the answer is no. When you think about growth in general, you're trying to

Paul Ashcroft (11:22.136)
break it down for us.

GAJ (11:23.613)
you

Dr. Laura Sicola (11:40.028)
go up the the corporate ladder as it were, you want that executive role. Well, you don't have it yet. You don't have all the skills necessary for it yet. You don't know everything you'll need to do it well. And when you do get the job, it's there's gonna be still a learning curve by just the nature of all things. So learning and learning curves by definition are uncomfortable. They are stepping outside of your comfort zone. You don't have those skills yet. But

Is it inauthentic to grow? No, of course not. A learning curve by is going to be uncomfortable and a little bit difficult, and with time it will become easier, it will become second nature. So we need to make sure that we're not saying, well, this is uncomfortable, so it's inauthentic. That will just keep you in the box of exactly where you are for the rest of your life, effectively. And for those who like to say things well like

Well, I just call it like I see it. I gotta be me. I have to just be authentic in how I talk. No, that's cathartic, not authentic. Just blurting whatever comes to your mind in the moment may feel good, but it's kind of the verbal grenade of who knows where that conversation's going to go. But after the first energetic explosion, there's gonna be a lot of mess to clean up.

GAJ (12:46.424)
Thank

Dr. Laura Sicola (13:06.557)
Most likely. That's where diplomacy comes in. Diplomacy is not about being inauthentic. It's recognizing that it's more than just the next ten seconds that matter. What is their long game? Where do you want this relationship to go? How complicated is the issue that you're trying to work through together? So th there's a couple of fun definitions of diplomacy. one is the ability, I think the important one is the ability to make a point without making an enemy. So framing

things in a way that is sensitive to their needs, not sugarcoating, not pussyfooting, but intelligently intentional in the work, judicious in your word choice. Another one is getting someone to have your way. Getting them to have your way as opposed to getting them to have their own way. So I think it was Churchill who said the the diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the chip.

GAJ (14:05.364)
Exactly one of my favorite jokes.

Dr. Laura Sicola (14:05.437)
The truth. Yes. And that's all all of that is it's still authentic, but it's not just throwing the grenade in and being quote unquote being me. So how to frame things is important. Now the prismatic voice, have you ever seen those little suncatchers, those little crystals that hang from perhaps the car rear view mirror or from the kitchen window or something? And when the sunlight hits it, a little rainbow spot.

hits the wall or hits the seat behind you. And in that same way, we are that white light of sorts that has all those colors in it. And in the same way right now, I'm in my podcaster, coach, training kind of mode. I'm in my professional mode. So in my spectrum, maybe we'll call that my blue for today, but I also mentioned I've got a young son. And I don't

Talk to him in this tone, in the this vocabulary with these topics, it wouldn't make sense to him. Nor am I going to have this conversation with you in the way that I typically talk to him, because it might be fun, but a little incongruent to say the least, if you're trying to get people to trust my advice on how to become more effective leaders. Entertaining, effective, right? That's that's the choice that we have to make. But maybe we'll call that my yellow.

Paul Ashcroft (15:11.412)
That might be fun, Doro, right? Indeed.

Paul Ashcroft (15:21.998)
100%.

Dr. Laura Sicola (15:27.493)
And we all have those many, many, many different colors and different hues within them. So to say that well, I gotta be me, w we already naturally do that shift. We naturally adjust our approach. I'm sure are either of you major football fans or have other sports that you particularly love? Is there a any is there a Manchester United or somebody else that that you've got to scream at the telly for? No wrong ones?

GAJ (15:49.066)
careful very difficult territory this especially in the UK that's a yes exactly

Paul Ashcroft (15:50.23)
Yeah, can't talk about football this year.

Dr. Laura Sicola (15:55.408)
All right. So I take that as a yes. That's an important part. Okay. So there's everyone's got their team. And when you're watching the game and they're having a terrible day, and the calls from the from the the officials are going against them and they're unjust calls. I'm guessing there are some language that might come out of you or might come out of your listeners that you might not use in business meetings. Would that be a fair assumption? Sure. So we'll call that your

Paul Ashcroft (16:20.782)
Right, for sure.

Dr. Laura Sicola (16:25.363)
Whatever is the color of your team of choice. Your purple from your spectrum. Wonderful. So we all naturally already adjust. And that is what's referred to as code switching. And again, as a linguist, it's a term that is used very neutrally. So we code switch, meaning we adjust for our audience. There is also a a on the far end of that term, there is an unhealthy kind of code switching, which is referred to at least in many circles here as covering, which is where you feel like you have to.

GAJ (16:27.192)
Purple.

Dr. Laura Sicola (16:53.727)
Hide who you truly are. And that often has ethnic or racial or gender or some other kind of connotation to it. And and we're not condoning that by any stretch of the imagination. But that's one just like manipulation is a an a negative form of influence, which is neutral. Similarly, code switching is neutral, covering is is negative, and we're not condoning that.

Paul Ashcroft (17:19.532)
It's fascinating because, it's fascinating because if one is asked to just be authentic...

GAJ (17:19.702)
It's faster.

Paul Ashcroft (17:27.64)
You think, okay, I've got my default mode. Authentic Me has one color from the palette, I suppose. And I just go to that default and I use that. And what I'm hearing you say is actually, no, you can be authentic, but be aware that you've got a much larger palette to choose from depending on your message, your audience, the context, how you are in that day, and so on and so on. Am I understanding that correctly?

Dr. Laura Sicola (17:53.79)
One hundred percent, one hundred percent. You do all of those colors are authentic. Your default, your preference may be your purple or maybe some other color at that point. Sure, just like the way that you dress, you may prefer to have your your gym clothes, your t-shirts, your sweatpants or whatever is is comfortable, but you're not gonna go to a board meeting dressed that way. You just know better. Similarly, if you go to the pool or you go to a black tie formal event, you're going to dress

appropriate for the context, even if it's not your preferred way of dressing. You you know that your message won't land with the audience. They may not even let you in the door for that matter. So similarly you need to dress your message through the way that you articulate it, the way that you frame it for that audience. And just because it's not your preference, okay, doesn't mean it's inauthentic. That's an important distinction to make.

GAJ (18:47.864)
Are you saying, and this is for my clarification, that authenticity rules, it's the thing that enables us to connect with other people. Code switching is interesting for me because code switching, especially with language and language codes, can define boundaries and context and can define groups. For example, the codes of emojis that teenagers are using and the way that they speak online is completely different from the series of codes that I use.

speak to my friends and also to them. And I guess there's no way that I can, I mean they sometimes teach me various emojis and it's hilarious and they all laugh when I use the wrong ones. But I think what I'm hearing is that authenticity is the thing that wins the day. Even if you don't speak the code, but if you understand

Dr. Laura Sicola (19:20.041)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Laura Sicola (19:32.062)
Mm-hmm.

GAJ (19:46.486)
what you're trying to say and you clear and you will authentic with it. That's the way in. That's the way to connect with people. Is that what I'm is that am I getting this wrong? Or am I understanding what we're talking about?

Dr. Laura Sicola (19:58.762)
I think the idea is that authenticity is not binary. It's not just monochromatic and black and white and this is me, that's not me. You are authentic. You may not have learned the lingo of your Gen Z new hires or whoever else it happens to be. Yet you can be curious, to your point, about learning it and want to. There's a a great

video I saw not long ago and I can't think of the guy's name, but he's a millennial and he gave a a commencement speech at a a high school for a in Gen Alpha slang. The whole thing was Gen Alpha. And of course the kids thought it was hysterical and he was clearly not using words that were native to his lexicon, so to speak, but he intentionally did it to make a point for comic effect

But in a way that still got the message across to the students quite effectively. So it's the intention with how the language is used, it's a tent about are you authentically curious in wanting to understand them and wanting to be understood and wanting to negotiate that that dance in communication, which is what it is, is really how do I get you to understand me? How do I learn to understand you better? There's an expression.

That a good teacher is someone who can explain things to aren't good to those who aren't good at understanding and who are good at understanding those who are not good at explaining. And that's really the challenge. Are you authentically interested in learning to do both of those things better and continually working on that dance?

GAJ (21:50.232)
I really like this idea of being authentically interested because it's the thing, when I'm listening to you I'm going, okay, so how do I apply this in my own life and with the people that I work with and so on? And as soon as you say the word to me authentically interested, go, hang on, I can get that, I can talk to people in a way that demonstrates not only what I'm trying to say but also that I am interested and I'm interested in their perspective and their point of view. And I guess that's where the click comes from.

by being authentically interested. really lands for me, actually. It does. I have a question about the world. We talk about the Gen Z. The world we live in is so uncertain, and there's so much uncertainty and chaos and change, which is now just the norm these days. And our world is, in some respects, shaped by this uncertainty. AI, for example, change is constant. And less traditional top-down management no longer works. We have to...

Dr. Laura Sicola (22:23.22)
Yes.

Dr. Laura Sicola (22:39.977)
Mm.

GAJ (22:48.44)
all interact with the cloud and the hybrid connection between all of us in some way. What does strong leadership communication need to do in this context, do you think?

Dr. Laura Sicola (22:50.911)
Dr. Laura Sicola (23:01.085)
One of an acronym that is thrown around quite a bit nowadays is the VUCA world. So VUCA V U C A, meaning volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. And this is the the world that we are living in more and more. So in that context, I think what communication really needs to do is is the antithesis of that to find the balance to all of it. So communication needs to create stability and

Clarity, it needs to simplify a message, and it needs to be quite specific in the process, as the the antithesis or the antidote, as it were, to volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And that's harder to do than you think, but with intent, intentional effort toward it, it's not as difficult as one might fear.

GAJ (23:58.802)
intention is the kind of the heart of my authenticity and my interest in people by having intention about what I want to do when I go in being aware of that is at the heart of it you say and you know just to go further about the world we live in leaders have to speak across so many boundaries today across functions and geographies and age groups generations expert groups and cultures they all have their own codes where do you

Dr. Laura Sicola (24:18.655)
Mm.

Yes.

Dr. Laura Sicola (24:27.305)
Sure.

GAJ (24:28.034)
Where do you see, know, messages get lost in translation. How can leaders stay curious enough to check whether they've really understood, not just by nodding along. If you know what I mean, what can we do?

Dr. Laura Sicola (24:40.687)
yeah. The well where don't things get lost in translation? That's the the nature of human communication. In all of those contexts, generational, functional, cultural intersections are just all opportunities for things to get muddied along the way. there's a perpetual gap. And I think one of the things leaders need to do is

acknowledge the discomfort of the fact that there's always that gap between the likelihood or the potential for the gap between what you think you said and what they think they heard. And learning how to keep that how to keep yourself explicitly and consciously aware of that and always seeking to to make that explicit to be able to address it for everyone.

this is where you're going to get rid of some of that that volatility or that ambiguity or uncertainty that we talked about a moment ago. i you know, we it's funny, this this past weekend we had a little family get together and my my uncle was there who is in his mid eighties, late eighties at this point, but he still very much wanted to play a game with the group. And so we had this game out of if if anybody's played Tapple, it's a lot of fun. But it's it's a category game and you go around the circle and everybody has to

come up with different items from the category, whether it's foods or dog breeds or cars, et cetera, and you have to hit the letter on the board of the word that you that starts the word that you've selected. And he I was trying to explain to him how to play. And I said to him, so you know, you come up with a word and then, you know, you hit the letter that starts that word and then it passes on to the next person and you go around. And he was getting quite agitated and I couldn't figure out why. And he finally said, but

How do they know what word it is that I came up with? And I said, Well y you say it when you hit the button. And he goes, Well, you didn't tell me I had to say it. And I thought to myself at this simultaneously, well, I I didn't? And did I have to? And the answer was apparently not, and apparently so. And I hadn't done it. So it it's what's obvious to you is

GAJ (26:42.802)
Thank you.

GAJ (26:52.13)
Yeah.

Dr. Laura Sicola (26:58.767)
And what you think you said versus what they think they heard, it there's always that possible gap. So having the humility to be curious enough to say, okay, what did I miss in my explanation that created this gap and seek to see if it was actually there? So even in in creating the psychological safety in your group, to be able to say,

after your explanation or your instructions, et cetera, to say, you know what, I'm working on being a better communicator, so I I need to know what did and didn't land. What did you understand to be my instructions? It's not a quiz. I'm not testing to see if you were listening. I need to know what did and didn't land. It's on me.

Paul Ashcroft (27:43.779)
you're giving us some great tips here. You've worked, I'm sure, with probably hundreds of leaders over the years in helping them improve communication. Most folk, I mean, I'd be interested what you think of this, think of themselves as pretty good communicators. The vast majority of people they'd rate themselves, particularly in business, communicate pretty clearly, especially if you become a leader.

When you're coaching these folk and you've obviously been brought in either for a specific reason or for a specific individual, where do you start to focus? mean, have you got some stories that you could share of an individual, maybe naming names, where do you start with them and how do you really get the most bang for buck for those people that actually thought, actually I'm already a pretty good communicator, Laura. What do you do with them?

Dr. Laura Sicola (28:35.389)
Most people I and I love it, most people will say I'm I'm probably pretty average. And that's you know, f who's average at that point. You can't all be average or better than average. And I love to use the phone for the video camera. That is my tool of choice, that is my weapon of choice, as it were. I tell my clients all the time, no one escapes the video camera. Because and I don't need you to do your entire presentation on video.

Paul Ashcroft (28:42.414)
Mm.

Dr. Laura Sicola (29:03.101)
We're gonna take a piece right from the beginning and do a baseline video. One minute. We'll just test whatever maybe you're going to give some feedback to a a underperforming employee. I worked with a a new client a little while ago and she had a reputation of being a bit gruff, a bit rough around the edges and a little intimidating. And so I said, Okay, well we know we need to have this one conversation with someone.

coming up, so let's just op do the opening. Prop up your phone and you'll talk to me like I'm that person. But we're just gonna do the recording of how you open the conversation and pretending that I'm that employee. And she we did the recording and we stopped, had her play it back and watch it for herself, and I didn't say a word. I just asked her what she saw, what was her first impression. And she said, my gosh, Laura, I'm such a

Or said I sound like such a and she you could fill in the blank with your guess of choice. And she was utterly shocked because she said, I thought I was being nice. I was really just trying to be clear and direct and and not but there were details. And the devil is always in the details in these things, which is why it depends. Some people will say, Well, I've tried and this goes back to our binary, well, a lot of women in particular who are

In leadership roles will say, Well, I've got the reputation of being too aggressive, too intimidating, too this, too that. I tried being nice and that didn't work. So what am I supposed to do? And that's the binary thinking. So we have to take away that that that self-imposed black and white on or off approach or lens on stuff. And so with that client, what we had to do was reverse engineer a bit and saying, Well, what was it about what you said?

And how you say it, that made your version of strength come across as harsh. And perhaps it was the speed. Maybe it was just the intensity of the voice as it was coming through. Maybe it was that there was one eyebrow cocked the entire time, as you were didn't even realize that it was there. There's so maybe it's the fact that you never smiled once. There wasn't a greeting at the beginning. There's a thousand little details and

GAJ (31:02.594)
Mm.

Dr. Laura Sicola (31:24.805)
When you look at things like executive presence, for example, or authority or approachability or whatever idea you want, it's not one thing. Those are constellations, not single stars. So you have to figure out what are all the pieces that come together to create that constellation that someone interprets as authoritative or approachable or intimidating. It's not just the one thing. So we had a lot of little shifts.

And it was very easy to move from there, but awareness is the first, i it is really the first wall for everybody. And that's why we use the video, because I can't coach you until you see and hear what I and everybody else sees and hears.

GAJ (32:09.048)
This is so interesting. have a sort of underlying thread that is emerging.

from this conversation. And the thing I just want to talk about is about feedback and the way that you refer to feedback. The very interesting, the story you tell about using the video, not commenting and allow people to get that direct feedback themselves and come to their own conclusions and see it for themselves. There you get a virtual feedback loop, which is virtuous, but it is also direct. It's not necessarily positive. It's positive in a, in a direct way, if you know what I mean. And it made me think earlier when you were talking

about how we get feedback or how we read the room, how important it is when we talk about people just being me, I'm just being me, giving feedback from a place of just bias or place of anxiety or place of...

what they feel, is not necessarily the feedback always needs to be based in some kind of fact, or needs to be based against in some way that you can provide information that is useful in a way of going forward, even if that information is difficult to hear. And then we talk about the feedback of the camera, which is providing you direct feedback and you're seeing it for yourself, you come to your own conclusion. And these are really powerful sort of tools for enabling us to kind of.

get who we are and how we're being perceived by other people. And that's the thing that's landing for me about being authentic in such a way that people perceive you in the way that you want or need to be perceived.

Dr. Laura Sicola (33:43.2)
It's not just in how they perceive me, but the the key with the diplomacy and how you frame things, etc., is can you what do you need to do in delivering that message to ensure that they can hear what you need them to hear? That's the key.

GAJ (34:03.682)
question about things outside of your work, if I may. What are you curious about Laura that's beyond your current work? are things that you're genuinely curious about in your broader life?

Dr. Laura Sicola (34:17.395)
Broader life, I I think there are two obsessions that I've got. One is is foreign languages and one is food. And anywhere that I can merge the two is my happy place as often as possible. So I I have been digging in quite a bit in the last couple of years to learning more Italian, getting more into my heritage, more cooking, more wine, more you know, details of learning the nuances of all the flavors and how things pair and and the words that go along with it. So that's that's always a lot of fun.

GAJ (34:47.224)
food and Italian food and language. You're very specific and precise in your use of language. That's my feeling about when I'm listening to you. Do you know the work of Stanley Tucci? You must do.

Dr. Laura Sicola (35:03.071)
love him. Absolutely love his work. I've read his books, I've watched his shows, yes.

GAJ (35:09.164)
He's amazing. And the idea that every single talk about codes, every single sort of area and city that we go to has its own language and its own language of food. Yeah, I'm a big lover of food as well. And how does that play out? Do you go to Italy a lot or?

Dr. Laura Sicola (35:20.766)
Yes.

Dr. Laura Sicola (35:30.023)
You know, I've only been once and it was just a few years ago I finally was able to get it on the calendar and make it happen and my husband still has family over there and they are from

the they probably still have the baby boomer generation. The the majority of the ones that we were able to meet didn't speak a lick of English, lived in this beautiful villa on the Mediterranean coast, kind of you could see the water on one side of the building and olive and lemon groves on the other side. And it was just so much fun. So much so great to really connect and to be able to share with my my older son the opportunity to to meet his relatives, his his ancestors, his heritage. that was really a a special opportunity for both of us.

Paul Ashcroft (36:14.488)
Laura, we're coming to the end of the podcast. And in a moment, I'll ask you maybe if you've got a closing thoughts or an idea that you would like to leave listeners with. You've given us so many great ideas. mean, I've loved finding out about the leadership voice and how that's the combination of the message that you have, but also the way you deliver it. In particular, I I've learned a lot about authenticity and how your read of authenticity is not, you've just got one channel, you've actually got

got or in your language, a prismatic selection of colors that you can choose from to bring into the way you speak and the way you communicate, which I think is really powerful. And I'm thinking about how you dress your message, even if it's not what you normally wear. It's probably worth giving it a go, depending on your audience. And also very much like your constellation, the constellation of different things that you can bring into the way you communicate. And as you say, you're probably not aware of those. Maybe holding up the mirror is the best way of finding out using

Dr. Laura Sicola (37:01.556)
Yes.

Paul Ashcroft (37:14.372)
the phone, but just being aware of some of the things that you can pay attention to to brighten up the way you communicate. But I'm sure Garrett too really enjoyed the conversation with you. If you could leave our listeners with one specific idea or thought to explore this week, what would it be?

Dr. Laura Sicola (37:34.078)
I think to be willing to step outside of the comfort zone and not necessarily associate it with inauthenticity, even if it's not a preference. You know, I lived in Japan for a number of years and in certain contexts, again the it depends, the traditional pleasant woman's voice

especially in in customer service and other areas, is extremely high, extremely kind of squeaky and soft, a little nasal and in in case you hadn't noticed, that's really not my default. So but with when I had to be in social situations with the older generations, maybe who had never encountered a foreigner before, I could see that there was some trepidation. There was some un some discomfort about, God, I mean I have to talk to the the foreigner and I don't know if she's gonna speak Japanese, whatever. But

If I could adjust my voice and just go a little higher and a a little softer as I was again in Japanese it sounds a lot different than in English, but even though in my, you know, New York, New Jersey, Italian heritage, whatever American style, I'm going, ew, ew, that's not the why do I want to sound like Minnie Mouse? I don't want to sound like Minnie Mouse. But what was more important to me in the moment was that I helped these people feel comfortable with me so we could enjoy the event.

together and get to know each other and have them not just freaking out that they had to talk to somebody who was white. Okay, so you know what? I learned to just put aside my preference for what I thought my a pleasant voice sounds like and find a way to connect with these people. It's it's what's your priority and what can you let go of? It doesn't define me. I don't lose who I am. I expand who I am because now I have these new connections who see me

And don't just get distracted by a voice.

Paul Ashcroft (39:28.384)
that. Thank you. Laura, this has been a great conversation. If people want to stay connected with your work, we absolutely encourage them to go find the book, buy the book and explore more about you. Where would they best go to find you?

Dr. Laura Sicola (39:41.94)
They can absolutely go to my website. That's the easiest place, which is just LauraSocola.com. There's a weekly newsletter. If you'd be interested in more tips and that's a place for tips, yes, not coaching, but in newsletters are a great place for tips and tricks and those kinds of things. happy to invite people to do that. And if I may, I'd love to offer a little giveaway to to your listeners, which is a tool. It's a blind spot checklist. And it's a very simple

checklist one page, but a way to dig in and see, okay, what is it that I might be doing? Where might I have I meaning you, the listeners, not me personally, but where's how to start to ask us that question? To be able to ask the question, what's in my blind spot? Where do I think I'm being clear that others would disagree? And how do I start to close that gap? So I'm happy to give you a link.

Perhaps you can put in the in the show notes for people to download this little quick checklist to help them identify where that blind spot is and how to get more into the into the light.

Paul Ashcroft (40:53.114)
Thank you Laura. Yes, and definitely in the show notes below, check out the Leadership Blind Spot checklist. Download that when you're done listening to the podcast. Laura, once again, thank you so much for the conversation. We really enjoyed having you as a guest on the show.

GAJ (41:05.783)
Brilliant.

Dr. Laura Sicola (41:06.643)
I loved it. Thank you so much.

Paul Ashcroft (41:09.442)
You've been listening to a Curious Advantage podcast. This series is about how individuals and organizations use the power of curiosity to drive success in their lives and businesses, especially in the context of our new digital reality. It brings to life the latest understandings from neuroscience, anthropology, history, business and behaviorism about curiosity and makes these useful for everyone.

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