00:00.03
Nandi K
going okay okay great all right ready welcome to write quick that's you boo yeah do you have the script in front of you no i'd be i'd be hi to you

00:00.22
Jenn M. Jackson
Okay, and there's a thunderstorm outside, so there might be some rumbling, but yeah.

00:15.48
Jenn M. Jackson
Me? I do. I'm just really high. Sorry.

00:21.27
Jenn M. Jackson
Wait, what you want me to say? The abide side part?

00:22.82
Nandi K
Yours is a bite-sized pop culture conversation.

00:24.45
Jenn M. Jackson
Well, I'm really saying it?

00:25.50
Nandi K
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26.55
Jenn M. Jackson
Okay, go ahead.

00:27.03
Nandi K
Everyone has to say it.

00:27.23
Jenn M. Jackson
Go ahead. Okay, go ahead.

00:29.34
Nandi K
Welcome to Right Quick.

00:33.75
Jenn M. Jackson
A bite-sized pop culture conversation with your favorite queer unfriendly Black hotties.

00:41.03
Nandi K
We're unfriendly today because it's low-key tough being a non-monogamous Black queer lesbian these days. I'm Nandi Kay and we have a special guest, unfriendly Black hottie.

00:54.39
Nandi K
Introduce yourself.

00:54.73
Jenn M. Jackson
I'm Jenn. Hey, I'm Jenn m Jackson, online Jenn m Jackson, PhD, but really just D&D friend.

01:01.69
Nandi K
Yes, oh my god, yes. We should, okay, we're definitely gonna have you back for an episode for On D&D, on Black D&D, so note that. But today, we're actually talking about Black lesbians. It's Pride, we're doing gay shit all month. This is our second guest this month, and yeah, we're talking about being Black lesbians. It's Pride Month, have you done any Pride activities, boo?

01:30.81
Jenn M. Jackson
So unfortunately, I feel like the ancestors and the universe have sat me down because every time I try to go outside, every time I try to go outside, i can't go outside.

01:36.92
Nandi K
Well.

01:42.98
Jenn M. Jackson
So I have missed pride so far.

01:43.38
Nandi K
well

01:45.30
Jenn M. Jackson
I'm trying to get outside soon. I'm trying my best, but we might have to do pride in July.

01:52.16
Nandi K
Amen. You can do Pride anytime. Yeah, i feel like you posted recently about like, what are we doing? Because we're like old. and we talked about this on our last on our like kickoff episode for Pride is like, I'd be tired. i don't want to be outside drinking all day.

02:11.29
Nandi K
I need to sit down.

02:13.40
Jenn M. Jackson
yeah

02:13.66
Nandi K
Like, I hurt my back standing up, twisting my hair the other day for too long. And I was dying. It took me all night to recover for standing up for two hours.

02:25.94
Nandi K
But um earlier this week is one of my friend's birthdays that I grew up with here in town. And actually, she's my cousin, but I only recently found out that she was my cousin. That's how it works when you live in a small town.

02:41.37
Nandi K
Sometimes you find out people that you've been friends with for like your whole life actually are your cousin.

02:47.32
Jenn M. Jackson
course.

02:47.93
Nandi K
um But she had a birthday. It's her birthday this week. And so she's been having stuff all week. And so we had a dream girls karaoke concert on Monday night. And i brought a bunch of wigs for everyone.

03:02.70
Nandi K
i brought, everyone brought like their microphones. So people have microphones. I brought like a real microphone with like a dangling XLR cable.

03:12.83
Nandi K
Some people had the headsets and we just sung like dream girls.

03:13.24
Jenn M. Jackson
curse

03:17.27
Nandi K
And it was a bunch of black queer people. I literally didn't even know it was going to be like that. Um, and it was so nice. And i was like, yeah, this is the kind of pride i think I can see myself doing.

03:30.35
Nandi K
Doesn't that sound nice?

03:31.46
Jenn M. Jackson
That is so cute. I'm over here. I'm like, I never have FOMO. But that gave me a little bit of FOMO.

03:36.70
Nandi K
Yeah, it was really fun.

03:36.72
Jenn M. Jackson
Because that's really, really cute.

03:38.26
Nandi K
Also, because me and my friend, we went to undergrad together and we used to have Dreamgirls concerts in our dorm rooms all the time. And it was like the first time we've been together in like almost 20 years, like 18

03:50.33
Jenn M. Jackson
Oh.

03:52.60
Jenn M. Jackson
I love that.

03:52.98
Nandi K
And I was like, this is nice. And this weekend, she's having like an outdoor camping thing at her, like her house outside.

04:00.79
Jenn M. Jackson
That's so cute. see this is this is This is why I asked too, because for me, i don't do well with social interactions that are boring and meaningless and don't actually like amount to anything.

04:02.01
Nandi K
Yeah.

04:10.30
Nandi K
and here

04:12.76
Jenn M. Jackson
Like small talk is is is just exhausting for me. So going out to a club or to a little cute party or whatever and just bumping up against eat people all night, I'll be overstimulated.

04:23.03
Nandi K
Yeah.

04:23.20
Jenn M. Jackson
It'll be too many smells. I'm always looking for the food.

04:25.46
Nandi K
Ugh.

04:26.11
Jenn M. Jackson
Like, is there a taco truck? Like what, when do we leave for French fries?

04:27.74
Nandi K
Yeah.

04:29.83
Jenn M. Jackson
Like, I don't, I don't go to those parties properly, but if it's a cute little kickback, you know what saying?

04:30.12
Nandi K
Yep.

04:35.23
Jenn M. Jackson
Like it is something where we can actually hear each other speaking and I can remember your name and we can treat each other like human beings.

04:38.74
Nandi K
Yeah. here

04:42.15
Jenn M. Jackson
I'm like, wow. What a novel concept and not have it be centered around alcohol.

04:44.31
Nandi K
It was great.

04:46.25
Jenn M. Jackson
That's the other thing.

04:46.52
Nandi K
Yes.

04:46.73
Jenn M. Jackson
like oh

04:47.00
Nandi K
Also, my friend is sober.

04:49.08
Jenn M. Jackson
I love that.

04:49.28
Nandi K
So, yes, a couple of people brought wine. I brought a bottle of wine. I had a single glass of wine. I also can't drink like that. Again, we're aging, honey.

04:58.20
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

05:00.09
Nandi K
The way that alcohol and my inflammation, that doesn't go together.

05:00.25
Jenn M. Jackson
and

05:04.63
Jenn M. Jackson
and

05:04.73
Nandi K
i have my lip. I can't even drink red wine no more. i'm basically allergic to red wine.

05:09.11
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

05:09.57
Nandi K
And I used to love red wine.

05:11.86
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

05:12.06
Nandi K
So like it was, yeah, we were basically completely sober except for some smoking. and it was just the best. It was, I was like, yeah, I met a bunch of new people I didn't know.

05:25.94
Nandi K
And i was like, yeah, I wanted to have something at my house this month, but now I have a bunch of family stuff coming up, but I might do something in July, like a game night or like another karaoke night.

05:37.72
Jenn M. Jackson
I love that.

05:38.15
Nandi K
Cause I have way more space in my house. um

05:42.26
Jenn M. Jackson
We need more that.

05:42.36
Nandi K
yeah speaking of sitting down are you dating have the ancestors also sat you down from dating yeah

05:43.14
Jenn M. Jackson
We need more. Yeah. Yeah.

05:53.98
Jenn M. Jackson
no

05:55.10
Nandi K
if

05:55.38
Jenn M. Jackson
So just like we're allergic to alcohol, I'm trying to think I'm allergic to dating. I don't know. These last few dates, Nandi, wow, friend. Oh my God.

06:07.47
Jenn M. Jackson
You know, just, I, when I was younger,

06:08.73
Nandi K
yeah

06:13.56
Jenn M. Jackson
I used to watch those movies and they would be like, oh, look at all my dates. And they're always horrible. And somebody says something weird or like they try to smell your hair or, you know, I'm like, that's nuts. That doesn't really happen.

06:23.94
Jenn M. Jackson
Like, ain't nobody having no dates like that. And now, now in my 40s child, you know, I'm like, wait a minute.

06:30.46
Nandi K
Yeah.

06:33.24
Nandi K
Yeah.

06:33.40
Jenn M. Jackson
that was actual that was That was art mimicking life. I did not realize that they could go both ways like that because life my life has been mimicking that art. And I'm concerned. So for me, I've decided it um um' just i decided that people are just really weird.

06:44.28
Nandi K
Mm.

06:51.99
Jenn M. Jackson
um

06:52.19
Nandi K
A lot of people are.

06:53.50
Jenn M. Jackson
They're really weird.

06:54.34
Nandi K
It's kind of a bad time for people, I feel, too.

06:54.36
Jenn M. Jackson
And It's a bad time for people peopling. You know i'm saying?

06:58.39
Nandi K
Yeah.

06:58.80
Jenn M. Jackson
So I'm like, you know what? Instead of explicitly trying to date, I am hanging out with my friends. I'm creating bookish communities. I'm going to cute little queer events.

07:08.12
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

07:08.45
Jenn M. Jackson
I'm making pottery. you know I'm going to pool parties.

07:11.74
Nandi K
Come on, Pottery.

07:12.28
Jenn M. Jackson
Places where it was a little bit vetted and curated. And so it's not completely random off of a dating app, some rando.

07:15.66
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

07:18.66
Jenn M. Jackson
know what saying?

07:18.84
Nandi K
Yep.

07:19.70
Jenn M. Jackson
It's a little more curated.

07:19.83
Aaron Rand Freeman
Thank you.

07:21.02
Jenn M. Jackson
And I can take my time. To see if it's somebody who I even need to go on a date with.

07:24.02
Nandi K
Yeah.

07:26.32
Jenn M. Jackson
I can't be dating all willy nilly no more.

07:26.74
Nandi K
yeah

07:28.28
Jenn M. Jackson
I got to be selective because people, people be weird.

07:29.08
Nandi K
oh

07:32.95
Nandi K
Yeah, the world is just like a really strange and kind of scary place. So I understand why people are in a strange headspace.

07:42.81
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

07:43.63
Nandi K
I wish they were a little more aware. I know all of us don't necessarily have access to the type of mental health care that we might need or some of us might have worries about engaging in that care, but I

07:47.04
Jenn M. Jackson
Yes.

08:01.14
Nandi K
Like I am in EMDR therapy and have been for the past like two years. And before that we did somatic therapy and I really value like being in touch with my body and knowing when my body feels like good in a place and bad. And that's why I've given up dating. Yeah.

08:24.73
Nandi K
but I feel like the way that people in the world date is not at all how I'm interested. I'm not interested, one, in anyone I do not know.

08:36.25
Jenn M. Jackson
Right.

08:36.63
Nandi K
So that's number one for me. is I need to start getting to know you to even really start liking you.

08:43.15
Jenn M. Jackson
Right.

08:44.63
Nandi K
And I've seen, even this week, I saw somebody on threads being like, I don't believe the lesbian friends to lovers trope because I'm not even attracted to my friends.

08:53.09
Jenn M. Jackson
I saw that.

08:55.43
Nandi K
And I'm mean like, that's a lie.

08:57.34
Jenn M. Jackson
You're weird, bro.

08:58.07
Nandi K
If you weren't attracted to your friends, you would not be friends with them, guys.

09:02.46
Jenn M. Jackson
That's right.

09:02.87
Nandi K
There's all types of attraction.

09:04.57
Jenn M. Jackson
But listen, though, that's true. A lot of people don't like their friends. that's That's the problem. See, you and I, this is where this is something I've always liked about you and I've commented to other people about with you.

09:10.78
Nandi K
Yeah.

09:14.70
Jenn M. Jackson
You actually do a good job of selecting the people who you're going to be around. Like you actually genuinely care about the people who are in your orbit.

09:21.85
Nandi K
I do.

09:22.33
Jenn M. Jackson
I have to be around other people who are like that because that's how I am.

09:25.94
Nandi K
Yeah, it's like, yeah.

09:26.23
Jenn M. Jackson
But a lot of people don't care about that. They have shitty friends.

09:29.30
Nandi K
Yeah, it's a weird, I think too, like as a traumatized person and somebody knew who spent a lot of time accepting crumbs from people, now that I know I don't have to do that, I'm extra super, super careful. And I always say it takes two years to become friends with me.

09:50.52
Nandi K
um Because I need to like know you for a while. let We need to have like maybe a difficult moment that we navigate. That's really important to me. And I feel like and even with dating, it's the same approach where people, the first conflict...

10:06.39
Nandi K
is oh it's a wrap i'm done with this person instead of let's figure out how we navigate conflict and that's why i'm like we can just be friends first and then if we want our relationship to evolve into more then that's great and also i'm kind of a relationship anarchist so i don't care what we call it if we want to fuck and we just want to also say we're friends love that for us it's up to us it's up to us

10:08.57
Jenn M. Jackson
Right.

10:14.62
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

10:16.92
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

10:31.99
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah, I agree. And I'm also a relationship anarchist. It's kind of funny because I think a lot of people are, but they don't call it that.

10:38.34
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

10:38.84
Jenn M. Jackson
I think that, you know, those of us who can see, okay, this is my best friend. This is also, my best friends are my life partners. Like I i don't do well with friend breakups.

10:45.08
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

10:47.20
Jenn M. Jackson
I've had a much harder time with friend breakups than I have with romantic breakups because I really love my friends, you know?

10:48.64
Nandi K
Woof. Yep.

10:52.32
Jenn M. Jackson
And, you know, for me, I married my best friend.

10:52.42
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

10:56.06
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

10:56.06
Jenn M. Jackson
So I, the the friends to lovers pipeline is the safest one that has ever worked forever.

11:01.88
Nandi K
Agreed.

11:01.98
Jenn M. Jackson
For me, this is the person I've been married to for 20 years. So I think what people don't understand is that, you know, people's ideas of friendship are so different.

11:04.66
Nandi K
Yeah.

11:10.90
Jenn M. Jackson
And a lot of people have friends for particular reasons. People are very, you know, materialistic and they want to ride people's coattails or they secretly don't like that person and they just spying them and they wait until they moment to escape.

11:22.54
Jenn M. Jackson
you know i'm saying? Like people do weird stuff, to even when they're friends.

11:23.08
Nandi K
Yikes, yeah.

11:25.69
Jenn M. Jackson
So I'm at the point now where i want i want to be your friend, but I also want to i want to meet your friends.

11:25.82
Nandi K
Yep.

11:32.70
Jenn M. Jackson
Like, I want to meet your friends before we're together.

11:33.18
Nandi K
Yeah.

11:34.58
Jenn M. Jackson
I want to know how you, I want to see if you talk about them behind their back when they walk away. You know what I'm saying

11:39.48
Nandi K
Hey, hey, whoo.

11:40.31
Jenn M. Jackson
Like, that matters to me.

11:43.48
Nandi K
Oh, my God.

11:43.67
Jenn M. Jackson
need to speak about your friends when they're not in the room. but I need to know that.

11:45.59
Nandi K
I had a really traumatizing experience with that with a group of people years ago. This was probably 10 years ago now, probably more.

11:55.99
Nandi K
But e fucked with me so bad. It completely like first I stopped eating with people that I did not know.

12:03.81
Jenn M. Jackson
um

12:05.30
Nandi K
Now, what that really was, was like social anxiety kind of being like triggered by because someone got up from the table. Soon as that person left, they started talking about him.

12:15.78
Nandi K
I was like, oh, my God.

12:17.30
Jenn M. Jackson
oh

12:17.62
Nandi K
Now, fast forward, that person was evil. That person was evil. However, that doesn't mean that the experience that happened should...

12:29.51
Nandi K
Like, why are you eating with people? And also, that's so okay. Because that's like a thing in the Bible where you, like, don't break bread with people that you don't fuck with.

12:33.94
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

12:37.58
Nandi K
And that's something that I also live by.

12:37.93
Jenn M. Jackson
That's right.

12:40.85
Nandi K
Like, I don't like to, like, eat with you if I don't really know you that well.

12:41.11
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

12:46.52
Nandi K
And, yeah, please don't be, like... I'm not necessarily like against talking it behind your back. If it's like a valid issue, you're expressing concern.

12:55.45
Jenn M. Jackson
Sure. Sure.

12:57.34
Nandi K
Like people, I don't worry about what's being said, quote unquote, behind my back.

13:01.33
Jenn M. Jackson
Sure.

13:01.50
Nandi K
But if it's some backbiting, hating ass shit, and this also happens to people with their partners, unfortunately, even with lesbians.

13:03.83
Jenn M. Jackson
Right.

13:11.71
Jenn M. Jackson
That's right. Let's talk about it. That's what I'm saying. Like, I think there's, that you know, we've all had friends where we've connected with other people to ask about them, how are they doing? And we might have to share some gossip, just just keep them safe.

13:20.15
Nandi K
here

13:22.91
Jenn M. Jackson
But then there's also that this is my friend, but when she walks away, im gonna tell people that she's a terrible mother.

13:22.97
Nandi K
Yeah.

13:28.29
Jenn M. Jackson
Right.

13:29.48
Nandi K
Ugh.

13:30.14
Jenn M. Jackson
Like in her face, I tell her, oh, that was a great performance. That theater show you just did. Wonderful. She walks away. I say, she's never going to make it. Like, why are you friends with somebody who you don't even actually like?

13:38.76
Nandi K
Woof.

13:41.06
Jenn M. Jackson
um these are These are actual examples from my ex. And she had a group of friends.

13:44.14
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

13:45.46
Jenn M. Jackson
And they all talked about each other. And it made me so uncomfortable because every time those people were out of the room, it was everyone had all this nasty shit to say. And I'm like, wow, that's how I know when I walk out the room, y'all saying some terrible stuff about me.

13:59.93
Nandi K
ah yeah Yeah, that's so nasty.

14:00.92
Jenn M. Jackson
You know what I'm saying? Like y'all don't like each other. And this is why I think with a lot of, so people have been talking about lesbians on threads, you know, about, you know, I can't be friends with this and I can't be friends with that.

14:13.41
Jenn M. Jackson
And masks can't hang out with masks. There's all these rules that people feel like they have to follow around how they build community.

14:17.78
Nandi K
right

14:21.77
Jenn M. Jackson
And people are so wrapped up in the rules that they're not being vulnerable.

14:26.46
Nandi K
right

14:26.58
Jenn M. Jackson
They're not building any real intimacy. Everything is a performance.

14:30.42
Nandi K
Not building connection because you're not safe. And how could you? And I want to like bring in neurodivergence because we're both ADHD.

14:40.31
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

14:40.60
Nandi K
And I know it made me feel way... I felt so much relief because I used to be like, oh, there's something wrong with me. And then it was like, oh, there is. And I did feel like relief. It was like not wrong with me specifically.

14:51.45
Jenn M. Jackson
yeah

14:52.08
Nandi K
Like... there's something wrong with the way I like process information, but stuff like that, i kind of have, You know how we learn the things that we do learn through like mistakes and then we take those and we're like, okay, this is how you should then behave in these situations.

15:11.44
Nandi K
When I experience contradictory experiences like that, it fuck it fucks me up like bad.

15:17.60
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

15:19.78
Nandi K
I'd be like, yo, like this is not the rule that I taught that. y'all said like I've been working hard to follow this rule so y'all think I'm one of you this isn't the rule like and then all these like

15:28.17
Jenn M. Jackson
Wow.

15:33.66
Jenn M. Jackson
yeah

15:37.01
Nandi K
fucking gender rules with lesbians transphobic mask of center people which is wild I definitely met a lesbian who told who I said I used they them pronouns and that I was non-binary and she was like trying to argue with me. I said, you're not a doctor or a geneticist. So let's both not go there. Like neither one of us are qualified to start talking about science.

16:08.82
Nandi K
She went online to talk shit about me. Didn't know that we had a friend in common. Actually, the friend that you just sent me, it was like, who is this?

16:18.65
Jenn M. Jackson
Ooh.

16:18.71
Nandi K
That was the friend we had in common. They sent me a screenshot of the post. I said, well, well, well. And then they saw me another time and they was like, what's up? i was like, nothing.

16:32.60
Nandi K
I was like, don't you, I was like, you don't want to deal with confused people. Right. Oh, then they was trying to apologize. I said, no, thank you. I'm good. You work at a construction site.

16:41.69
Jenn M. Jackson
Oh my God, I'm so exhausted.

16:43.15
Nandi K
You're not, a you're not a medical person, but it's like dating as a, it's like, that's also hard with lesbians where like, I don't know if you're going to be transphobic.

16:53.59
Nandi K
That's a scary thing. Like,

16:55.16
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, and for me being in a six foot, four inch tall body and being androgynous and non-binary person,

17:01.76
Nandi K
Amen.

17:05.33
Jenn M. Jackson
you know i like to play with gender a lot.

17:07.29
Nandi K
Yeah.

17:07.37
Jenn M. Jackson
I wear gender like a costume. I think it's fun. So my makeup and my nails and my hairstyles all change based on you know the gender I'm experiencing in the moment.

17:10.10
Nandi K
It is.

17:17.39
Jenn M. Jackson
And so I've experienced it from you know like the mascot center folks and the very feminine folks as well. like One of my most transphobic partners was a very feminine transphobic AKA, you know, who, and she was African, right?

17:33.44
Jenn M. Jackson
And so she refused to call me by my chosen name. She would only call me my name at birth. And she would introduce me to people with that name, even though i don't use that name anywhere.

17:47.96
Jenn M. Jackson
She would never use they them pronouns. She only used she her.

17:51.18
Nandi K
Mm-mm.

17:52.66
Jenn M. Jackson
She would tell other people to use she her.

17:52.88
Nandi K
Mm-mm.

17:54.54
Jenn M. Jackson
Right? Like it was this really subtle form of transphobia where she was just like, I'm not going to argue with you about your gender expression.

17:58.72
Nandi K
Yikes.

18:02.66
Jenn M. Jackson
I'm just going to rename you. I'm just going to rename you and reframe you to other people.

18:05.40
Nandi K
Yikes.

18:08.27
Jenn M. Jackson
And I'm going to do it before you you're even in the room so that when you get there, they already have a misunderstanding. So if you disagree, it looks like you and not them. Right. And like, I've had, you know, that because in that relationship, I was the man, I was the masculine one.

18:18.46
Nandi K
Oh my god.

18:24.04
Jenn M. Jackson
ah She was six, she was five, three, I was six, four. yeah So it was like, it was like, she wanted to lean into these gender roles.

18:30.13
Nandi K
Yikes.

18:30.30
Jenn M. Jackson
But when I've dated mask of center folks, it's the exact opposite. And it's so confusing. Like the the stud I dated who, when I hugged her, her feet came off the ground and she was mad at me.

18:35.58
Nandi K
Yeah.

18:39.67
Jenn M. Jackson
And I'm like, listen,

18:39.77
Nandi K
I love that. I'm like, pick me up. I'd be begging Sean to pick me up. i'm I'm about it. As soon as we get out of here, I'm going to be like, Sean, you haven't picked me up in forever. They're going to like this again.

18:49.59
Jenn M. Jackson
I mean, it's the thing. i I'm like, why would you why would you date somebody who you have a foot of height difference with if you need to be a man and you need to be strong and all these things?

18:56.76
Nandi K
Right.

18:59.91
Jenn M. Jackson
I'm like, you saw me.

19:00.54
Nandi K
Get stronger, bitch.

19:01.05
Jenn M. Jackson
You saw like it But I think the other part of it is like, that's the only person who's ever said to me, even I've dated men. And she is the only person who said that I have emasculated her.

19:11.70
Jenn M. Jackson
I've never heard, I've never had a man ever say that to me, but this woman tells me I'm emasculating her.

19:17.59
Nandi K
Wow.

19:19.58
Jenn M. Jackson
And it was such a mind fuck for me because I was like, wait a minute. Like,

19:23.61
Nandi K
the lesbian application infamously the hardest one like when you're a gay man you low he can't even put in any other applications if you've ever been gay but a lesbian baby that thing's under review for the duration

19:28.27
Jenn M. Jackson
oh,

19:37.75
Jenn M. Jackson
Child.

19:40.41
Jenn M. Jackson
Every day. Mm-hmm.

19:42.61
Nandi K
For the duration. And this makes me want to just like really quick before we like wrap up, talk about like queerness versus like being gay, because this is a constant conversation on this podcast about the difference.

19:58.35
Nandi K
I personally think we're way too willy nilly assigning the title queer to people just because you bump coochies or you are same gender loving.

19:58.71
Jenn M. Jackson
um

20:03.64
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

20:09.66
Nandi K
or you're bi or any of those things does not automatically make you queer. like queer but And you just wrote a subsec article on this, which was why I wanted to bring it up, because it's so important, especially in the examples you just gave about how even in queer, in quotes, I'm going to say queer in quotes, relationships,

20:33.56
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

20:36.63
Nandi K
people want to recreate the same heteroormative the cis heteronormative, at that, not even just heterormally cis heteronormative, things that I thought we're trying to get away from.

20:52.41
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah, see, that's the part I thought too, right? we but We'd be forgetting that we're ADHD, so we're silly of us.

20:59.38
Nandi K
Silly of us for thinking.

21:01.33
Jenn M. Jackson
Right. I think that's something I've contended with my whole life because of this body that I'm in. And at 12, at six four you know, the boys wasn't really fucking with me.

21:07.61
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

21:11.64
Jenn M. Jackson
And if they were fucking with me, they didn't want nobody to know they was fucking with me. right And so that taught me early on about like the liminal space that queer bodies occupy and how it conditions desire and who gets to be seen as attractive.

21:20.08
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

21:25.81
Jenn M. Jackson
And you know when we think about sexual relationships, like what does it mean if somebody is the dominant person, but then they don't show up that way in the real world and all these questions. So I had to grapple with that as ah at a very young age, knowing that I was attracted to folks of all different genders, but there was something about

21:38.20
Nandi K
Sure. Mm-hmm.

21:43.61
Jenn M. Jackson
the folks that that play with gender. It was always something about people who play with gender and who play with those norms that I found myself more drawn to both romantically and platonically. I think for a lot of people though, right?

21:53.62
Nandi K
yeah

21:56.40
Jenn M. Jackson
For a lot of black lesbians, that's just not their lesbian journey, right? am so, I am enamored. I love when people were like, yeah, I was like this in high school. I knew I was mask of center.

22:06.96
Jenn M. Jackson
I told my mom, I came out. It was no big deal. I'm like, that's incredible. Wow.

22:10.65
Nandi K
I love that yeah yeah nah I was in the south bitch I was fucking with girls and had zero consciousness of the fact that I might actually be gay like these two things were completely like separate I came out six years after my first experience with a woman

22:11.51
Jenn M. Jackson
What a blessing. What a blessing. That's not how most of us get here. It's just not, that's not norm. You know?

22:25.69
Jenn M. Jackson
Be gay. Come on. Same. Same.

22:35.99
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

22:36.47
Nandi K
ah It took me that long to really like, mind you, all my friends have always been gay.

22:38.26
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

22:43.09
Nandi K
I have been around gay people. I have friends that I've been friends with since I was 13 years old.

22:47.32
Jenn M. Jackson
Yes.

22:47.53
Nandi K
They're gay.

22:48.50
Jenn M. Jackson
Yes.

22:49.41
Nandi K
They're gay.

22:50.65
Jenn M. Jackson
Same, same. If you and i grew up together, we would be friends.

22:52.34
Nandi K
Like, yes.

22:55.01
Jenn M. Jackson
Like I have the exact same experience.

22:57.88
Nandi K
Yeah.

22:58.01
Jenn M. Jackson
i literally was sitting on the couch.

22:58.31
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

22:59.73
Jenn M. Jackson
I was like 35.

23:02.31
Jenn M. Jackson
Cause even at 35, I was like, well, sure. I've had experiences with women and I'm attracted to women and I prefer to be with women. and I had, right.

23:11.71
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

23:11.96
Nandi K
Yeah, exactly.

23:12.79
Jenn M. Jackson
But i was sitting on the couch and I was watching this comedy special and they was like, oh, you know how I knew I was gay? I kept playing house with my best friend and my best friend is a girl. And she starts talking about all of her experiences playing house.

23:23.30
Jenn M. Jackson
And I was like, hold on a motherfucking minute. And I look over at my partner and he's laughing, right?

23:28.89
Nandi K
Pew, pew, pew, pew.

23:30.13
Jenn M. Jackson
He's laughing. And I was like, I said, Darren, am I gay? And he fell out. I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

23:37.37
Nandi K
Oh my god. We love Darren, a Taurus.

23:41.75
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah, dance perfect. I was like, wait, is this gay?

23:42.94
Nandi K
We love a Taurus.

23:44.87
Jenn M. Jackson
So then my ass, of course, because I'm a social science scientist, I went to all my friends. I was like, hey, so how do you feel about titties? And they was like, I don't feel about titties. And I was like, what do you mean you don't feel about titties?

23:58.10
Jenn M. Jackson
They like, I don't like them.

23:58.16
Nandi K
That's crazy.

23:59.66
Jenn M. Jackson
And I was like, who doesn't like titties? They're like, Jen, I'm not gay. And I was like, oh my God, you know this?

24:04.22
Nandi K
Gay men like titties.

24:05.90
Jenn M. Jackson
don't

24:05.94
Nandi K
That's wild. But I guess that does cover the gay part because even gay men like titties. Like, yeah, that's true.

24:11.83
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah, but they gay, right? it was i've really i've really It's taken me a long time, I think, because you know we be in our own heads.

24:14.07
Nandi K
Yeah.

24:19.64
Nandi K
We do.

24:20.15
Jenn M. Jackson
And autism also, we don't really understand, right? Until people explain things to us.

24:23.90
Nandi K
Yeah.

24:25.75
Jenn M. Jackson
So I think the reason why all this data is coming out now about how a lot of autistic people are more likely to be queer, like the correlation is there.

24:32.71
Nandi K
Mm-hmm.

24:33.99
Jenn M. Jackson
There's no causation, but there is a correlation. And I think that The reason why queerness aligns so well and polyamory aligns so well with autism is because we frequently just see the world for what it is, right?

24:41.24
Nandi K
here

24:46.84
Jenn M. Jackson
We don't see it with presupposition or, you know, through these lenses and rosy colored glasses.

24:47.29
Nandi K
Yeah.

24:52.12
Jenn M. Jackson
We just see the world for what it is. And folks be gay and folks be queer. And the ways that folks move through the world when they sit at these intersections, that, that, that,

25:02.58
Jenn M. Jackson
It's sometimes is queer or queer adjacent, like the ways that we made choices to move against the status quo, to build alternative households and families, to rethink how capitalism enters our households and our bodies, right?

25:07.18
Nandi K
Yep. Mm-hmm.

25:12.82
Jenn M. Jackson
That is the life of being queer.

25:13.03
Nandi K
Yeah. Right.

25:15.64
Jenn M. Jackson
So I, for me, it's always been natural, but I always forget what's natural for me is just, that's just not how folks' is minds work.

25:22.17
Nandi K
right Yeah, and lesbians need to take this to heart, okay? Because everybody has a different journey. We're not all gold stars. Some of us slept with hundreds of men before we figured it out, okay?

25:36.65
Nandi K
Some of us were just, um that's why it's called compulsory heterosexuality, okay?

25:42.01
Jenn M. Jackson
right

25:43.08
Nandi K
Like... That's why, because you're not even necessarily thinking about it until someone says, have you ever, you're like, wait a second, wait a second.

25:53.06
Jenn M. Jackson
Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on.

25:56.63
Nandi K
Well, I think this has been a riveting conversation. Shout out to black, queer, queer, black lesbians everywhere. Shout out to Black lesbians everywhere, but if you're not queer, get queerer.

26:10.86
Nandi K
Like, let's queer it up.

26:11.00
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah. Do something quick.

26:13.17
Nandi K
Let's free ourselves from mental slavery.

26:13.30
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

26:15.77
Nandi K
You can be whoever you want to be. and that's what our ancestors wanted. You're going to let their sacrifice and hard work go to waste by living under these awful, awful rules that were never meant for us?

26:31.34
Nandi K
Absolutely not.

26:32.92
Jenn M. Jackson
No, thank you. It's also boring.

26:34.42
Nandi K
to Yeah, it's...

26:35.66
Jenn M. Jackson
Yeah.

26:37.24
Nandi K
Extra boring.

26:37.66
Jenn M. Jackson
It's actually boring.

26:39.06
Nandi K
Queer. of it What did the Spice Girls say? Spice up your life.

26:42.67
Jenn M. Jackson
Wow, Fran. Mm-hmm.

26:44.13
Nandi K
that's what it spice girl very gay very gay well today's episode is sponsored by the pride demon you know the pride demon is on the loose all month probably all summer and as always a big thanks to our audio producer our our producer and audio adonis aaron ram freeman jen tell the people where you want to be found

26:54.78
Jenn M. Jackson
Mm-hmm.

27:07.99
Jenn M. Jackson
I mean, I'm all over the internet. I probably should be in the house more, but I'm all over the internet for sure. At Jen M. Jackson PhD, I have a sub stack, jenmjacksonphd.substack.com.

27:19.86
Jenn M. Jackson
And it's called Love Notes. It's a a weekly reflection series.

27:22.28
Nandi K
Yes.

27:24.90
Jenn M. Jackson
I have a Black Fitness book club on there. And that's really where you can find all my musings.

27:30.42
Nandi K
Yes. And we'll include the link to Jen's article, the problem with queering our love without queering our lives in the show notes. And I'm Nandi K. You can find me on Instagram threads and blue sky at Nandi K A Y Y See y'all.