>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I, meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today, I'm speaking to Andy. Andy works for the

Jesuits and is based in Scotland. He also runs an

Instagram account called the Lay Companion, where

he shares his writings and reflections. In this

conversation, he speaks about finding God in daily

life and how sometimes that can be challenging

when balancing family and work. Andy's way of

finding God in the small moments is a gentle

reminder to do that myself. So, Andy, how would

you describe life growing up in Scotland?

>> Andy: So it was great. I loved growing up in Scotland,

despite the weather, it was actually really

pleasant and we played a lot of football and

things outside. And I grew up in a place in the

west of Scotland which suffered from sectarianism,

although I wasn't really aware of it as a child,

because essentially we were kept separate. So I

grew up never meeting a Catholic until I was in

university, which might seem a bit odd to people

who don't live in the west of Scotland, but it was

just very divisive. And, has got better, but it's

still there, it still exists in some way. So I

never thought about Catholicism. I never really

thought too much about God growing up. I suppose

by the time I was eight, I kind of. Although I was

baptised in the Church of Scotland, by the time I

was eight, I'd completely left and my family

weren't practising anymore. So, I just never gave

it a thought. And Catholicism just wasn't on my

radar at all. And the only times we did hear about

it were negative, negative things. So, you know, I

went to a football tournament, when I was, I think

I was 8 or 9, and for some reason we were told not

to be friends with Catholics, just as a big

announcement at the end of the thing. Just

remember, don't be friends with Catholics. Remove

yourself from their presence. Just generally don't

be around them. and that was it. And it seemed a

bit. It might seem a bit odd, but it was kind of

normal. We got that sort of messaging all of the

time. And I lived in quite, ah, a. An area where

the Orange Walk and things that were really

prevalent. So every kind of. Every July, there was

always a lot of fighting and disruption. and

seeing that as a child and knowing that it was

related to religion in any way, it just made me

completely close off to it. So there's. You know,

I did have a very happy childhood growing up. And,

I do love, I loved kind of growing up in Scotland.

There was a lot to do, but there was always that

side of society that just didn't merge well with

each other. And it kind of plays out in football.

You see it with Rangers and Celtic, where the kind

of two fans just go clash with each other a lot.

And it's not all of them, but, you know, there is

a proportion of people who just, see it as a way

to divide the society rather than coming together.

So I didn't grow up with a very good, impression

of Rajan at all.

>> Julia: so, Ben, when was your first real encounter with

Catholics?

>> Andy: So, when I went to university, I bumped into.

Actually, I ended up marrying the first Catholic

that I met. So I bumped into Catherine, who's my

wife. and we became really close friends. And, she

seemed to have a really strong faith, and I just

didn't know where it came from. And she spoke to

me a bit about God, and I started to. Started to

open up a little, and I thought, you know what?

I'll try going back to the Church of Scotland and

see how that goes. so I went back for a Sunday

service and I just didn't feel anything. And then

around that time, my dad was diagnosed with lung

cancer. and so my whole world was really in

turmoil. and the person I confided in most was

Catherine. And she would speak to me about the

Catholic Church and how they approached things.

And she asked me to go to Mass one day, and I

said, absolutely not. I can't be seen going into a

Catholic church. That's just the furthest thing I

can do. She said, bill, if you can't do that, why

don't you come, to this place, Caerfin Grotto,

which is a lord's shrine in Scotland. And it's a

lovely place. it's very scenic there's. A glass

chapel there. There's just lots to kind of do in

terms of your spirituality there. But essentially,

I just went for a walk and an overwhelming sense

of peace came over me. Something that I hadn't

felt before, just being in that environment. And I

thought, oh, maybe there's something. Something to

this that, I'm not quite getting. Or maybe I would

get that again if I went back to the Church of

Scotland. So I did. And again, I got nothing. Now,

I don't want this to sound as if I'm being rude or

anything. I just. I think God works in certain

ways for certain people. And for some people, that

will be the Church of Scotland, and that's

perfectly fine. But for me, it just wasn't sitting

right with me. So that's why I found my way to the

Catholic Church. But my dad's lung cancer became

terminal, and I had told Catherine about what was

happening, and she invited me to Mass. And for

some reason, I decided to go. And I was even

scared to bless myself with holy water because we

weren't supposed to do things like this. So

eventually went into the church, and I had this

overwhelming sense of peace again. And this energy

that kind of went right through me. And I just

felt. I don't know how to describe it, just as if

I was being held in some way that I'd never

experienced before. And I was watching the Mass

unfold before me and all the beauty of it, and I

just was in complete awe, really. And I didn't

want to leave the church that night, but I didn't

have a clue what was going on. Like, you know, I'd

never been to a Catholic Mass before. There was

people standing up, sitting down, shaking hands,

like I had no idea what was happening. And, when

people were doing the sign of peace, I was

actually saying, how are you doing? Instead of

peace be with you, Because I had no idea what I

was supposed to say. but I just. I guess I found a

place where I felt completely at home. I was just

aware of a presence I'd never experienced before,

and I didn't want to lose that. And that was

probably one of the most profound experiences I've

ever had in a church. the next day, my dad

actually passed away after that, and I found

myself going to the church and just feeling

consolation in a way that I'd never experienced

before. It was tough and it was hard. I'm not

saying it suddenly made life easier, but there was

a sense of God with me in this and not being on My

own, that I just hadn't found before.

>> Julia: I was thinking before when you said about, some

people find God in the Church of Scotland and

other people find God in the Catholic Church. We

often talk before, on the podcast about people.

God finds us where we are and finds a place for us

that fits with us. so it's great. And particularly

in that time of what was a very tough situation

for you, that you were able to find that

consolation in church for you. So was that. It was

after that you then were signed up to the Catholic

Church, or did it take a little bit longer?

>> Andy: No, it took about two years, after that because, I

thought I could go to Mass in secret and I thought

that would be enough. And I thought, you know, I

could do that. I could just come along every

Sunday or any day I wanted to go, really, and sat

there and just watch. but then the draw of the

Eucharist became too strong and, you know, once

you realise that that's the actual Body and Blood

of Christ, I mean, how can you not want that? How

can you. You know, I fought it as hard as I could,

but ultimately I was never going to win that

fight. So I eventually, after a couple of years,

decided to do rcia. But a lot of, Not a lot of my

friends, there was a few friends who didn't,

really didn't like the fact that I was becoming

Catholic. And when we were playing kind of five

asides and things like that at, football, you

know, they were starting to kind of make comments

and put harder challenges in. And so it became

very obvious that they really didn't want me to go

through with converting. And, yeah, ultimately,

those people are no longer in my life. But that's

just one of those things. I've got plenty of

people in my life who did support me and who were

very happy and, who were there every step of the

way. So, you know, it's just one of these things,

I suppose.

>> Julia: And if someone had told you at that moment that

you were going to end up working for the Jesuits,

would you have believed them?

>> Andy: I wouldn't even have known who the Jesuits were at

that point. and. Well, that's not strictly true. I

remember one episode of Father Ted where they talk

about the Jesuits having the papacy wrapped up,

which I didn't really know now, I find quite

funny, but didn't know what they were talking

about at the time. But, yeah, I'd never heard of

them. I never planned on working in the church at

all. I went to University to be a PE teacher. Ah,

that's all I wanted to do when I was younger.

that's everything that I'd planned in doing. when

I was at university, I started to fall out of love

with PE teaching, I suppose, and I worked in an

area, working with people with additional support

needs and setting up clubs in north and South

Lanarkshire, for children with disabilities and

autism, specifically to. To play extracurricular

sports. Because at that time, the kind of early

2000s, there was. There weren't many m. Weren't

many opportunities for people to do that. So

that's what I did. And that was funded by, words

for all and things like that. And eventually the

funding, you know, the only fund for a certain

amount of years, and that ran out and then I

needed to get a job and I'd finished university

and I didn't want to do PE teaching anymore, so I

didn't really know what I was going to do. And

then I decided for some stupid reason to. Not

stupid reason, but stupid in the sense that I had.

I had no money, to propose to Catherine. so you

need money to get married, obviously. So it was, I

realised I needed to get a job and get a job

quickly. So I ended up becoming a baker and I

worked in a bakery for two years. And then, the

job came up for a, youth provincial worker, for

the Missionary Ablates of Mary Immaculate. So I

went to the interview, which was the day before my

wedding, and, I guess I was just thinking, well,

if I don't get it, I've still got my wedding to

look forward to, I'll still have a good party and

so on, and I'm getting to marry the love of my

life, so, you know, I won't be that disappointed

if I don't get it. But anyway, we ended up going

to, Medjugorje on her honeymoon and I was phoned

two days in to offer me the job. So they must have

liked me at the missionary plates of Mary

Immaculate. So I got the job, there, And

incidentally, my wife, who works as a lecturer,

she got her job, the next day as well. So it was a

bit of a miracle that we're just married. And then

we both got these two jobs to come back home to,

which was really wonderful. But I worked for them

for four and a half years, setting up all sorts of

youth ministry and young adult ministry across the

UK and Ireland. But I had to do a lot of

travelling, so I would be like a Week in

Edinburgh, a week in London, a week in Dublin, a

week in Anglesey, maybe a bit of time in crew. And

then they'd send me to Lourdes and then to Spain

and just all over the place. I was away from home

for about six months out of the year, which was

quite a lot, and hard enough because my wife is my

best friend and I missed her. But then we started

having children and that just becomes even more

jarring when you have to leave them. And I had

just done a young adult retreat and I was on the

train back from crew and, my youngest. Well, my

only son at this point, George was on the phone

and he just said, daddy going. And I just thought,

I can't do this anymore. I can't keep leaving. As

much as the work is great and I enjoy it, I'm

supposed to be his father and I'm supposed to be

there for him. That's who God has given me to look

after. So, as well as my ministry, I need to give

that attention. And that made me apply for, a job

that I'd seen where it was for a pastoral

associate with the Sacred Heart Church, which was

the Jesuit. So I looked at that and kind of wrote

the application on the train. And then I was

invited to a, kind of an evening for youth and

young adult ministry by the archbishop at, the

time, who wanted to look at all the youth and

young adult activities in the archdiocese and then

see how we could work cohesively together. And

then I went to the interview and again, they must

have liked me. And I got the job without any

problems, really. But, I did have a lot of

experience of working in church, working in

parishes, developing programmes. And so it was

kind of an easy fit for me to move into the Sacred

Heart. And I've been there for ten and a half

years. And it's. You know, things have changed

over the time and the job has changed over the

many years, but it's very fulfilling and I get to

do a lot of good and I get to help a lot of

people. people get mixed up with what my role is,

because in Scotland I think I might be the only

lay person that does this job. So they can't tell

if I'm a priest or if I'm a deacon or am I

training to be a priest? And I'm like, no, no, no,

I'm none of that. I'm married and I have children.

So I get the kind of best of both worlds. I get to

live some form of religious kind of life and also

have a family life as well.

>> Julia: So you were talking about being on those trains

and being away from your family and it sounds like

you were very busy. How did you spend time with

God in that?

>> Andy: It was, it wasn't easy actually. sometimes I

really struggled to, you know, especially when

you're tired and to try and spend a bit of time

when you're moving around so much it's quite

difficult to find a bit of time to pray. But I was

using actually the prayer as you go up and doing

imaginative contemplation using that which I found

really helpful. And there was one incident that I

had during prayer where it was the road to Emmaus

or a moss or however you're supposed to say, I

keep getting corrected. But I was walking and ah,

you know, I'm picturing the scene and I'm getting

really, really into the. I can smell everything, I

can see everything, I can almost, you know, touch

the environment and it's very vivid and I'm having

a conversation with Jesus and then we get to the

house and we start to eat dinner and then at the

end of it I say to Jesus, well I suppose it's

time, time for you to go. Because that's what

happens. Jesus, they recognise Jesus in the

breaking of the bread and then, then he's gone.

And I said, I suppose it's time for you to go. And

he said andrew, why would I, why would I go? I

said, well that's the way the story goes. And

Jesus said, oh, this isn't a story, this is your

life and I'm with you through it all. So I'm not

going to leave, I'm going to be with you. Even in

these hard journeys, even these different roads

and routes you have to take, I'm going to be

there. And I kind of got a lot of consolation from

that prayer and I found it really profound and

really life giving and it just made me see God and

the difficulties that God was there with me in it.

Sam,

>> Julia: That's a really powerful an image to have as well.

I know when I've done it, imaginative

contemplation, just having Jesus respond to you is

just really uplifting in so many different ways.

So Andy, you were talking before about being a lay

companion for most people out there. What does

that mean?

>> Andy: So essentially the reason I chose the lay

companion is first and foremost I'm a lay person.

But the establishment of the kind of Jesuits were

Saint Ignatius and his companions. And so I

thought it was a Fitting name because I was going

to be writing about and kind of making content

based on Ignatian spirituality. And, because it's

made such a difference in my life, I wanted to

share that with other people. And so I set up an

Instagram account a couple of, you know, probably

about a month ago now, actually. And it's been

doing really well. And a lot of people have, been

in touch to see how much they've enjoyed my

reflections, how much they've enjoyed being guided

through prayer. And so the reason I, kind of

started it was because I really like writing. It's

one of my favourite things to do and I'm really

keen to show people how you can find God in your

daily life.

So one of the incidences that I had was, my

youngest son, Harry, is autistic and isn't really.

He's got a communication delay. He does say a few

words, but it's very few and far between. But it

makes life challenging in some ways because the

other two boys wanted to go to the cinema to see

the Mario movie. But Harry just can't last the

whole time. So we didn't want to ruin the

experience for them. But at the same time we

wanted to give Harry an experience as well. So I

told my wife to take the other two, George and

Jacob, and take them, and I would stay with Harry

and we would watch Disney Cars. And, it's one of

Harry's favourite films and he sings a lot of the

songs and things in it. And we just lay on the

couch and he fell asleep and it kind of snuggled

into me and I kind of nodded off as well, I think.

And I woke up at the soundtrack and it was the

words you finally start to see, you're living for

someone else. And that just really spoke to me.

And I felt as if God was talking to me directly

through a Disney film somewhere. I wasn't

expecting to see, see God at all. and yet there he

was in the middle of it. I just felt so grateful.

I had a sense of consolation and I just felt so

happy to have the gift that Harry is and that God

trusts me with such a precious little boy to look

after and care for. And that that's also the way

that God looks after us and cares for us. You

know, he's always there. He knows what we need

before we even need to ask, essentially. So after

that experience, I thought, I need to write this

down and share it with people. Because I thought

if I can just give someone a glimpse of what you

know where you could perhaps see God when you're

not expecting it might make people's awareness

become, you know, more vivid in other areas of

life where you're not expecting to see God.

>> Julia: And I think that's really important for people to

be able to see that, to read the writings you've

been doing. Because, it's so easy for us just to

go through life and not see God in our day to day.

But it's only when we start to reflect and think

about it and give space for that do we actually

see the impact that God has or the moments that he

talks to us specifically. I know for me it's one

of the things of the examine, which is the

Ignatian prayer, that at the end of the day it's

really helpful because I can reflect back and see

how God has been speaking to me in those moments.

Has that helped you form your faith and your sense

of mission?

>> Andy: The examiner is highly important to me. And again

similar to you, I do it at the end of each day,

because you don't, you know, you can try his have

and sometimes you are aware of God in the moment,

but sometimes it's only when you look back you see

God's hand at play and you see where he is and

where he's been. And so I like to use the exam at

the end of the night. Sometimes I need to do it

that stage before you get too tired and you fall

asleep. Because I don't want to fall asleep during

it, but that kind of ten minutes before you get

too tired. And I feel by identifying God in my day

it gives me a sense of, it gives me a sense of

mission, it gives me a sense of where I need to go

next. And I can then ask for that at the end of

the exam to guide me the next day.

>> Julia: I, ah, slightly laughed at your doing it 10

minutes before you're going to fall asleep.

Because I've been recently doing an exam and

course so it's praying it every day but over six

weeks and there being a particular focus and in

one particular week, three nights in a row I tried

to pray the particular examine and fell asleep

before I got even halfway through it. And at the

end of the week I was like, I think I'm going to

take the hint that I might need rest. I was just

thinking about how it's easier sometimes when

you're in those kind of, what are called

mountaintop m moments where you're doing a Camino,

where you find it easier to hear God's voice or

God carries you through, as you mentioned. But

then when we're back down on earth, on, like, our

daily life, hearing God can be a lot harder. So

with that in mind, how does your prayer, if you're

being honestly, how does that look every day? Is

it very same, or is it

>> Andy: sometimes a bit challenging as very much the same.

But that doesn't mean it's not challenging.

Sometimes it's hard just to find a minute, which

is my main problem. Although God often has a way

of stretching time, once you start to try and

commit to things, you end up finding the time

somewhere. So usually I pray at the beginning of

the day and the end of the day, and this isn't a

plug for praise, you go, but usually if I'm

driving to work, I'll listen to praise. You go,

that can be helpful. But I think I spend a lot of

my day talking to God. I feel as if I get answers

and I get a response, and that helps me to make

good, positive decisions. it's hard to explain, I

think, but I'm not sure if I stop praying. I know

sometimes it's intentional prayer, but most of the

day I'm praying or I'm thinking about God, or I'm

thinking about how God is active in a moment. Now,

it's not always easy, as I said, but, it's kind of

second nature almost at times.

>> Julia: And do you.

Because we started this conversation talking

about, the role of, like, Catholicism in your

life, and how originally it wasn't a part of your

life and then you converted. And obviously one of

the things about Catholicism is that we go to

weekly, at least, Mass, or quite often daily Mass.

So how does going to Mass play a role in. In your

spiritual life?

>> Andy: So, funnily enough, this can be quite challenging.

which might sound ridiculous, but, I go to Mass

with my family, and my youngest son is autistic,

as I said earlier, and a lot of the time is spent

just making sure he's okay. And so I'm physically

in the building and I'm there, but, there's so

much going on that I'm just not getting fed at

all. In fact, there's a funny story, Harry, during

the consecration, who doesn't speak much when the

whole church was silent, started shouting, brush

your teeth. which was, you know, was great. It

doesn't say much. So I was actually just delighted

that he was speaking. but at the exact worst time

he could have done it, which was perfect. But,

there's always something going on at Mass. I'm

always on hand. Either it's taking Jacob to the

toilet because he needs a toilet breaker. There's

Harry who's needing entertained or something. And

so I don't get much from mass there. And then I go

to work on a Sunday night. we have a young adult

Mass in Edinburgh which is really well attended

and is continuing to grow. But again, I'm working,

I'm there, I'm in the building and Mass is

unfolding before me. But I've got things to do and

I'm concentrating on things and so I can't really

focus on what's actually happening. And again,

through imaginative prayer. When I was doing a

spiritual accompaniment course, actually we were

doing the feeding of the 5,000. I was one of the

disciples, I was helping Jesus, getting the

baskets ready to feed people. And I was about to

take the basket and then go and then give it to

the people that were there. And then Jesus grabbed

me on the shoulder and said, stop Andy, you need

to stop. And I turned around and said, why? He

said, well, you can't feed anyone if you're not

feeding yourself. And that just really struck me

and I couldn't get that out of my head that Jesus

is saying, remember you have to feed yourself. And

it's true in that everything really, if you're not

sustaining yourself, you can't really help others

in the best way that you can. So because of that

experience I know that I need to carve out time

for myself and perhaps go to Mass during the week

when it's just me because even if I go to Mass at

ah, work sometimes people know who I am. So

they'll come and talk to me, and they'll come and

ask things. So I'm not really in that mode. So I

need to go to another church sometimes and just

sit myself and just sit with God. And sometimes

that's all I'm doing. It doesn't necessarily have

to be a Mass, but sometimes it's just sitting

there in God's presence, placing myself before

God, before the Trinity, letting God look upon me

and trying to do his will ultimately to do what

God needs me to do.

>> Julia: I think I completely understand what you just said

because I'm quite involved in the parish at Farm

street, but sometimes I go to the Mass early in

the parish near where I live, at 8:00am where

nobody really knows me because I know it's the one

where I'm most likely to be able to pray myself

and not be like running around, this needs to

happen, that needs to happen. But it's the one

where I can come be fed by God rather than, as

you've described it, you feeding everybody as

well.

so how, how do you make, other than going to

church or like in the middle of the week in a

church that you, in a parish that you aren't,

known at, how do you make space for God whilst

jungling your family and your, your faith and your

work life as well?

>> Andy: That's a good, question. I suppose. I don't really

stop. I, I try to see God in everything and so

the, it can be really hard to separate any of it

because ultimately God has given me everything

that I have and he's given me a wonderful family

to look after and be part of. And I'm in a

wonderful job where I get to help people every

day. And I find it really difficult to separate

those things out. Like my kind of. A lot of people

talk about a spiritual life and you know, having

to work on their spiritual life, but really that's

just their life in general. It's all part, it's

all connected. it's not like you can separate it

off and say, well, I'm being spiritual for 10

minutes here and then the rest of the day I'm just

going to do what I like. It really is all

interconnected.

>> Julia: So what advice? Because I was, talking with our

producer beforehand of that. I feel like I spend a

lot of time in my, spiritual direction going. I

just feel rubbish that I'm so busy and I struggle

a bit with finding time for prayer. So what advice

would you give to somebody in that situation?

>> Andy: I suppose just trying to build your daily routine

in some way would be helpful. Like if you've only

got 10 minutes in the morning, make that a good 10

minutes and don't worry so much the rest of the

day that you're not doing enough. I actually

recommend people use praise you go if they're

really busy because it's all there for you and

really easy to access. And sometimes I would just

say to people, just pause and slow down for five

minutes and just place yourself in God's presence

and just imagine God looking at you and not having

to say anything or do anything. Just be aware of

God looking at you.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you'd known earlier about

experiencing God in the everyday?

>> Andy: Suppose what I wish I'd known was that God was

active and present in all of our, experiences. If

we would just notice a bit More that it would be

easier. But, you know, it's part of the journey as

well, I suppose. But I wish I'd learned about

Ignatian spirituality much earlier, because it's

something that I've found really, really

liberating, actually, to know that you can find

God not just in churches, but, you know, as I sit

and look out the window at the tree and the life

that's moving around there, that I can see it in

my children, as a father, when I'm doing things

that are just kind of not mundane in the sense

boring, but just everyday things. And, you know,

if you just pause to see and take a moment, you

will see God in it. Like, one of the stories I

have was when I was taken, and I wrote about it as

well on the Instagram page. But, my middle son,

Jacob, one night I was putting him to bed and I

was going to go in and I could smell my aftershave

and he'd sprayed it all over his bed and all over

him. And I said, well, why have you done that? Not

quite as calmly as that, but I was like, why have

you done that? He says, when I smell that smell, I

know that you're there and I know that I'm safe.

And I thought that's. And even in that moment, as

he said it, I realised that's what we're doing.

That scent of God that we're craving, that we just

need to know that he's there and that he's with us

in those moments. And that Jacob, was getting

ready because the lights were going out and it was

going to be dark, but he knew that if he could

smell me, he was safe. So when there are shadows

in your life, if you bring them out and show God

them, then he can touch them and make you see that

he's with you in it.

>> Julia: that's such a powerful image of your son spraying

the perfume.

What are you grateful for?

>> Andy: This is going to sound really boring, but it's

really not. I'm really grateful for my family, for

the people God has given me in my life. I was

lucky enough to marry my best friend, and have

three wonderful children. And it's challenging,

but it's the best thing that I've ever done in my

life. And I'm just so grateful to God for the

gifts that he's given me. Each child is a blessing

and it's great to see their different

personalities and their different interests and so

on come through. I'm just really grateful to have

a lovely family and to have the job that I have

working with a parish community and helping them m

develop their spiritual life and their prayer

life. I guess I'm just grateful for my life in

general because it's one that I'm walking with God

and I can feel God in every step.

>> Julia: That's wonderful. Well, thank you for joining us.

>> Andy: Thanks very much. It's been a pleasure to be with

you today.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this conversation is going to stay with me

because of Andy's real honesty about finding time

for God, but also how God shows up for him. For

example, a gentle reminder from Jesus in an

imaginative contemplation about feeding yourself.

How about you? We'd love to hear how Andy's, story

resonated with you. And why not also tell us if

you're facing an experience you wish you knew how

to look at differently, it might just be something

we can help with. You can find out more about this

and other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you

again for listening. I hope you'll join me again

next time on Things I Wish I Knew.