Sarah Poynton (00:01.678)
Hey everybody, it's Sarah Poynton. Welcome back to the Money Mechanics podcast. I'm very excited to have you all here today. We're going to be joined by Matt Hall, who is the founder of Success School and a guy that I've known and followed online and met probably about five years ago, maybe six years ago now, and followed his journey. spoke at one of my events in Milton Keynes for our business, Kajito Well.

And ever since I followed his journey online and I'm very excited to hear what he's got to say today because we're to talk about all things money, business, success, all of this sort of stuff, mindset, there'll be lots to talk about. So Matt, do you want to introduce yourself? First of all, thank you for being here, obviously. But do you want to tell us who you are and what you do?

Matt Hall (00:40.912)
Thank

Yeah, and I was just thinking then, yeah, it has been a wild journey since that event. It feels like a lifetime ago in some ways, because it's kind like that compound effect has happened for me and my business. This last two years has felt like 20, like the amount that we've done and the amount that's happened. So I'm sure, you know, it'd be nice to sort of reminisce on those last few years. But essentially, I'm an online business strategist that specializes in online launches. So we're talking when people want to go,

Sarah Poynton (00:48.609)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (01:13.058)
from that model of being an online service provider that's constantly trading their time for money, know, doing lots of one-to-one work for clients, those kinds of things. How can we then launch more kind of group programs like your memberships, courses, those kinds of things. Like that's the thing I help people do is stop having to do one-to-ones and go more one-to-many. And I flippin' love it. I love helping people. I love...

Sarah Poynton (01:22.318)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Hall (01:41.86)
the clients we've got right now. And I love just sharing. anything that we can speak about today that can just give people insights into that. And obviously we'll talk a lot about money, but I'm all here for it.

Sarah Poynton (01:52.463)
Amazing. Thank you very much for that. So we'll start where we start with everybody, which is what is your earliest memory of money?

Matt Hall (02:00.59)
My earliest memory is, as far as I can remember, now looking back, that not a lot of people around us had it. Like, I grew up in Bradford in the north of England, and it was the wealthy people, you know, with those kind of people over there. It wasn't around us. It wasn't the norm. I think there was a lot of, they either got lucky if they had money.

or they're greedy if they have it. I think there was a lot of those kind of attitudes around me, kind of, you know, at school and just societally, I think, when you're growing up. I think my parents, I think always worked really, really hard, always, and never had loads of money, but anything they did have, they would do everything they could to provide for me. So it's not like I had one of those rags to riches story, like, poor me, I grew up with nothing and all that kind of stuff. That wasn't my journey.

that my, basically my journey was to amazing, loving, incredible parents who did everything they could. But you my dad was a firefighter that had grown up in, you know, a council estate where for him, like just having a stable, solid job and getting a good wage and doing good in the community was absolutely success for him. And my mom, a mobile hairdresser, but like I just saw my mom constantly.

carrying bags around like to go from one house to the next, working so hard for that money. And I grew up like this kind of kid that wanted to perform, wanted to entertain everybody, wanted to make people laugh. And I think I saw it that I could help them not have to work so hard by becoming rich and famous, that kind of naive young thing that so many of us thought would be the answer to everything. So.

Yeah, I think reflecting, that's kind of the backdrop, if you wanna call it, to kind of my mindset around money.

Sarah Poynton (04:01.357)
Did your parents talk to you about money?

Matt Hall (04:05.816)
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it was like this big taboo subject, but I also don't think it was a huge topic, you know, to talk about all the time. I think as kids, we're quite receptive, like we pick up on stuff and we do kind of, I mean, I don't know, this may might have just been me, but you do read between the lines a little bit. And I think there was probably more just observing my parents and observing the...

they have to work really, really hard just to provide a quote unquote normal average life. But I don't think, yeah, I don't think it was ever like this big taboo, like we can't talk about money. I just think I'm probably just observed it more.

Sarah Poynton (04:36.171)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Poynton (04:49.985)
Do you think that as a kid or in the world that you grew up that you were learning about money enough to be able to understand how money works in the real world?

Matt Hall (05:02.672)
Absolutely not. No. And I think that is just so common for so many of us, isn't it? Like, we're just not a financially literate country, generally. And I think that's so sad. And, you know, sometimes when I have conversations on my podcast, different guests have different views. And, you know, I had one recently and she was like, I don't like to talk about money because I don't want to kind of like show off or make people feel inferior. And I kind of pushed back on that a little bit. And I said, but...

Sarah Poynton (05:07.5)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (05:30.235)
we have to talk about it because if we don't, we don't educate people and then we don't empower people. And I think that is societally a fundamental issue that we have. I always say it's like money and sex. These are the two things that we feel embarrassed about, that we don't openly talk about. And whenever there's a subject you don't talk about or feel embarrassed about, you can't get access to the right information and have healthy conversations. So yeah, I mean, it's...

I think the more that I've grown and the more that I've invested in self-education, I guess, as I've got older, the more I realize how much we are absolutely not taught about money at all and how wrong that is. Because whether we, you hear people say money is the root of all evil and all that, whatever your views currently are on money, the reality is this, it's a big part of life.

Like that is how society functions. And if it's a big part of your life, if it affects your every day, whatever that subject is, you probably need to know about it right. And that for me is just bonkers. And I really try and, as best as I can, I know it can feel crude to people that have been brought up with certain views on money, but I really try and make it a healthy, open conversation in my show and the kind of content that I do.

Sarah Poynton (06:36.033)
We need to know about it.

Sarah Poynton (06:54.421)
Amazing. So let's take us back a little bit to like before you had your business that you've got now, like I guess at some point most people that have got businesses, there's a trigger point where you go, do you know what, fuck this, I'm going to do this instead. What was yours and where did that come from and how did we end up here?

Matt Hall (07:12.762)
So I'm the stereotypical unemployable guy. 19 years old, I started my first business and it was really just a natural opportunity that I just ran with. It wasn't that I grew up that kid that wanted to be an entrepreneur. You you hear all the stories of the lemonade stands at 11. None of that was me. I just wanted to be on stage, be a performer, make people laugh, whatever. And I joined a tribute band, as you know, I was in a take that tribute band when I was 17.

Sarah Poynton (07:29.826)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Hall (07:42.447)
And effectively the manager was just a horrible guy. He very much like led through fear and putting us down and telling us we were rubbish. And we hated working for him, but we loved the job. And I like a couple of TV acting jobs at like 16, 17. I'm living with my parents. I've managed to build up a couple of grand in my savings. And I was just like, listen, if I could buy us some cheap speakers, start a website, is everyone in this band happy that we just...

leave this bugger and we just start on our own. And the good thing about it is that none of the lads were thinking entrepreneurial. They had no interest in building an empire and all these ambitions that I had back then. They just wanted a manager that they actually liked. And so they were totally like, there was no egos. Cause like I wasn't the lead singer and it's like, well, who are you to be the boss kind of thing. There was none of that. There was just support of like, yeah, if you're happy to do that, Matt, let's go.

Sarah Poynton (08:19.755)
huh.

Sarah Poynton (08:24.929)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (08:35.169)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (08:39.184)
And essentially that was me at 19 years old, starting a business, which then grew to have an agency with other singers, function bands, tribute acts. We ended up with over 500 acts on our books. We ended up in-house managing all these other bands, you know, getting offices, rehearsal studios, vans, speakers, full-time staff. And it became an actual business from, from a bit of a monster. Yes. A hungry beast, as I call it, because it wasn't the most profitable business, but high turnover, you know, high revenue.

Sarah Poynton (08:59.713)
Monster.

Sarah Poynton (09:04.812)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (09:09.424)
But I just did all my lessons through that first, I would say, seven, eight years of that business because I literally knew nothing about business. I didn't know what VAT was. didn't know, you know, gross net, all these kinds of things that we take for granted now. As a 19 year old with nobody in my family that's entrepreneurial, all I had was just delusion, kind of determination and effort, willpower, right? That was it. As so many of us do.

Sarah Poynton (09:32.714)
effort.

Delusion and effort, think might be the two ingredients that launched more businesses than any other ingredients in the world. Delusion and effort, I've got a lot of time for that.

Matt Hall (09:42.577)
If not everything, yeah, everything we ever know starts with that. There you go. That's the takeaway that everyone needs. And it really was, but the downside to that is lots and lots of tough years. Like I'm talking years where we're turning over great money, but there's no money left for me at the end of the week. I'm talking trusting people that stole lots of money from me, hiring the wrong people that you then have to let go. All this stuff.

was learned for me personally through the experience of genuinely doing it the hard way and getting it wrong and working seven days a week and all that kind of thing. And to your point of like the turning point, I was about 27 at the time. So bearing in mind, I started that business at 19 and I was still slogging my guts for it. I was still working all hours, Monday to Sunday. I'd put on a bit of weight. Like I wasn't looking after myself.

and a relationship that I've been in for almost seven years, just completely ended in a really horrible way. And that was for me, I think my, if I go back to like being 18, 19, my dream was by the time I'm 30, I'll be married with children and I'll be really wealthy and all those kind of, guess, naive 18 year old girls. I kind of thought, wow, turning 30 is just around the corner. And I'm the opposite to all of that. I've got a business that doesn't make me happy.

Sarah Poynton (10:43.82)
Please.

Matt Hall (11:09.144)
I work more hours than you would in a job for less money, for less money. And now the person I thought I'd get married to and have children with, we're no longer together. And I'm actually feeling really weird as a nearly 30 year old going on dating apps. And cause they didn't exist when I got in that relationship. And now it's this whole new world. And I was just like, wow. And I went for, it was probably about 10 months.

Sarah Poynton (11:12.618)
In a job, yeah. Less money.

Sarah Poynton (11:26.838)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton (11:30.389)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (11:35.825)
where I went from one extreme to the other. So the first extreme was work really hard, be super ambitious. You know, I didn't have much of a social life. To the flip side, which is like, wow, I've missed out on those years where everybody else is out partying and going to uni. I didn't do that. So I literally was just like drinking alcohol every night. I was partying all the time and I was really, really low. And I think like the lowest it got, I remember at one point just feeling so sad and so, just so...

empty and low and unhappy. I remember thinking, I don't care if I don't wake up tomorrow. It was never like, I'm going to attempt to take my life, nothing like that. It was just like, whatever, this life's shit, it's awful. It's really weird talking about that now because it just doesn't feel like me. It's such...

Sarah Poynton (12:20.908)
Do you, would you say that in that space you felt lonely or was it more, you just didn't have any direction or purpose that you didn't really know what to do next? Okay.

Matt Hall (12:31.946)
all of it. I mean, I definitely felt lonely. felt, I felt really, I think now just connecting the dots. I've been thinking a lot recently. I know there's a lot of conversation around neurodivergence. I know there's a lot of people saying, everybody's got ADHD and all that kind of stuff. But I think I've always felt like I just think differently to everybody else. And when that kind of my business wasn't making me happy, I'm now single. I was just like, what is wrong with me? Like,

And it's so exhausting living in my brain. And so I just felt tired. I felt exhausted. I felt lost. I felt like, is success? I have no idea because I thought I was chasing the metrics. I've worked really bloody hard. I've tried to be a good person. I've been super ambitious. I've tried to make good money to be able to look after my family and do something beyond the norm. And actually I feel the opposite of success. And that began the journey of really eventually it wasn't a

Sarah Poynton (13:26.337)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (13:30.993)
overnight thing, it was about 10 months of, I guess, wallowing, I guess, feeling down, getting pissed, whatever, to then go, there was just a turning point where I was like, I can't feel like this anymore. This has been too long. And there's only me that can actually get me out of this. And that's where the like self-development stuff started. And basically that, that from that, we, the idea of my podcast was born. So this was like 2018, 2019.

And it was like, wouldn't it be cool if we could actually sit down with people every week and have conversations about what success really is? Because what I thought it was isn't working for me. I now need to learn and bearing in mind like back when I started at 19, there wasn't podcasts. You know, this is 16 years ago nearly. Wasn't podcast mentors, online courses, memberships, all this. I mean, there might have been, but I didn't know of them. So these are all things we like take for granted now if we start a business today. But I hadn't...

Sarah Poynton (14:14.752)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (14:26.256)
grown my business with any of those resources. And when I decided to start my podcast, not many people had podcasts or knew about them back in 2018. So it was just this idea of how cool it would be to just be able to interview people for an hour every week and share those lessons with anybody that wants to listen. And that was literally the start of the business that I have today, Success School.

Sarah Poynton (14:47.563)
So I want to just go back to something that you said there, is, and I'll paraphrase rather than quote you, because I can't remember exactly what you said, but you basically said you'd fought for ages for the success that you thought is what success is, defined by, I assume, society and what we think it should be.

And actually you got all of the things which on paper should tick the box of you being successful, which then should equal happiness and fulfillment and all the things. And in fact, you felt empty and the opposite of what you thought. Now I can resonate with this loads because in like sort of 2022, 2023, I went through a very similar situation. I had more money than I'd ever seen. Like the business was flying, our property investments were going well.

The online coaching company was growing, my investments were like, the market was booming, like everything was going brilliantly. I'd never had more money and yet I felt completely lost and empty. And I remember we had a, we set a goal to do a hundred thousand pounds in a day once, like in an eight hour billing day. And we hit 99,000 and something and it was incredible achievement. Like I was really fucked off that I didn't hit the hundred, but.

Matt Hall (16:02.286)
Yeah, so close!

Sarah Poynton (16:04.779)
I remember feeling really empty about it and I remember thinking like, well, okay, cool, that's fine, we've done nearly 100,000, but like, now what, now what, now what? And I was constantly chasing this now what, now what? And I think actually when I look back on that period of time, I felt very similar to you, is that I chased this, what I thought I should be doing in order to achieve fulfillment through success and money and wealth and all the things.

And in fact, I got there and realized I was so disconnected from it from a human being perspective, actually, it wasn't really about the money at all. It was about me, my happiness, my health, my relationships. And the balance of success really comes in the line of finding an equilibrium between all of those things, as opposed to success always meaning materialistic money, cars, watches, holidays, all the things. actually that.

It took me, I I sat in a period of time where I just felt miserable. Like I was doing the job because I had to do the job because I'd committed to it and people had paid me and I was like on this cycle, but I was really unhappy in it. And actually that took quite a long time to realize that I was unhappy in it, to be able to then start to put things in place to change it. But I wonder how many people out there strive to goals that have been set because it's what they think they should do as opposed to

what they've actually sat and pondered, what do I want? And with your business, obviously you coach a lot of people in this zone, what's your thoughts on that?

Matt Hall (17:32.356)
Yeah

Matt Hall (17:37.999)
Yeah, so I always say self-development starts with self-awareness and self-awareness is grown from self-reflection. Like we have to take that time to pause, to reflect and I'm going through this right now. I think more in my personal life, like I've just been loving my business and it's giving me so much fulfillment and so much dopamine and so much joy. The...

Sarah Poynton (17:42.719)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Hall (18:04.43)
really finding normal life dead boring. And I'm really finding it hard to have that yin to the yang and actually switch off. Not because I'm exhausted and burnt out. It's a very different thing to back when I was 27 and I was exhausted and not make like great turnover, not great profit. They were very different days. Today it's still a, I've got to try and figure out, you know, how to find ways to have enriched my life beyond business a little more. And that in itself.

Sarah Poynton (18:16.447)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (18:32.192)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Hall (18:34.188)
is my self-reflection piece right now. But to your point, I think we just end up being given a blueprint for life by somebody else without actually reflecting on what actually fulfills us and makes us happy. And if we're not careful, that can lead to us being very unhappy. And I think that's what kind of happened to me back then. But really interestingly, just this last week, I had one of those moments.

what you're talking about, which is where actually you are achieving success in business and financially, but it's leaving you with these strange emotions. So if I think back, there's a couple of key moments in my life that were like this. One was I did a bodybuilding competition and growing up. Okay. Yeah, because you would have known me, I think probably when we met, I'd just done it a year before or something like that. Right, so I...

Sarah Poynton (19:15.413)
hoped we'd get to this as a topic because I remember this is a good conversation.

Sarah Poynton (19:24.021)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Hall (19:28.272)
kind of when I was younger, I've always struggled with my body image and my weight and all that kind of thing. And I think in my mind, to a point of like people chase girls and then it doesn't bring them what they thought. I thought having big muscles and abs and all that kind of thing, I'd be like, I am now the man. I am super confident. I have arrived. I just thought that would be the thing. You know, like, I don't know. I think I probably did my first mood board when I was 16, 17 and it was...

You you had the big house, the beautiful family, the flash cars, and then there's a topless guy in the gym with the big body, like abs, yeah, the men's health, physique, all that. In fact, that was the exact picture. And I remembered then, you know, starving myself, essentially, overtraining and being obsessive for this competition, getting on that stage.

Sarah Poynton (20:03.402)
all the apps in the world.

Doing one on pull-ups, living the dream.

Matt Hall (20:25.04)
literally dripping in really dark fake tan. They definitely put too much on me. It was ridiculous. And feeling super depleted and exhausted and thinking internally, I feel no different. I'm just Matt. I'm still me with that same voice in my head having chats with myself about the day. And yeah, I'm right. I'm proud. I've done something, whatever, but it wasn't that big, ha ha, we've arrived moment. And the other one was when I had my first 10,000 pound month.

Sarah Poynton (20:50.44)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (20:54.128)
when I was one of the loneliest, I felt again, I was like, I'm single. I felt like I remember thinking, I can't really celebrate this with anybody because I haven't got it to share it with. And a lot of the people I talked to on a daily basis are my clients paying me or they're my staff that work for me. Or like my parents, I didn't want to like gloat because they were still working really hard in their job for a lot less money. It just felt this really weird thing. And then bringing it forward to this last week. So we've just done a really, most successful launch.

Sarah Poynton (21:00.842)
because we've not got someone to share it with.

Sarah Poynton (21:15.87)
Yeah, I get it.

Matt Hall (21:24.112)
which was close to 200,000 pounds in seven days. was just sort of 190 in seven days that we've done in, again, in revenue. That is not in my bank account right now, just to be clear. But we did that. And I think on some level, I'm still chasing those goals to make my family proud and on all that kind of thing. And the moment was that when we were still in that launch, I think we'd done about 130 grand at that point. It was a sudden day.

Sarah Poynton (21:35.156)
Yeah, yeah, I understood.

Matt Hall (21:54.321)
And I went to my nan's house, my nan's like 92. And again, I think like on some level there's this thing of I need to achieve things while my nan's still around and you know, that, those kind of thoughts. And I just said, we were talking about other stuff and then I just thought, right, I'm going to tell her now. And I just thought, I just said, nan, just so you know, in my business, we've had this huge successful launch and we've done like nearly 130,000 pounds so far in the last five days or whatever it was at the time. And she just went.

Ooh, did you? She went, it definitely makes you more money than Take That thing did then, doesn't it? And then she went, hey, I tell you what, Take That are on tour at the moment, aren't they? I'd love to see them. And I just thought, like, I've waited for so long to be able to say I've done something like that. And we know this intellectually, our family don't really care. Like, the ones that actually love us, they love us with or without money. And the...

Sarah Poynton (22:43.124)
Don't care. Yeah.

Matt Hall (22:44.718)
And even though I knew that intellectually and I didn't say it and I didn't we didn't continue that conversation. We just then talked about the circus tour. But it was one of those moments when I was like, wow, emotionally, even though I knew intellectually, emotionally, it does once again leave you feeling a little bit empty and a little bit like, you know, so it's an interesting one. And at the same time, I think I'm far enough now in my, if you want to call it self development journey, whatever.

Sarah Poynton (23:02.986)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (23:11.248)
It's not like, God, I've lost all purpose. I understand it, I can compartmentalize it. It's not chasing money for approval, even though on some level there still is a bit of me doing that. The bigger picture isn't that, and I am able to detach from it. But yeah, it is now about really being clear about what are the other things that enrich your life beyond just chasing those goals.

Sarah Poynton (23:37.788)
You just said that making money for approval and I think that's quite an important sentence to just pause on because I think for a lot of people, certainly for me, so I'll speak from my own experience and I'm sure people listening to this will resonate with this, I similarly to you have my whole life.

struggled with my self-image, not really from anyone else's perspective, but entirely from how I see, how I feel, all of that stuff. And actually the drive in me to build businesses, to sell businesses, to build houses, all the things that I do, I think it took me until I was in my 40s to realize that that drive comes from the need to have approval.

or probably till my late 30s, I'd imagine. It's not so much now, because I think turning 40, I started to think, do know what? Fuck other people's opinions. I'm just going to live my life for me. But I think there'll be people listening to this who, at a certain degree, are fighting to have more money, have more things, build businesses, have good careers, because not everybody listening to this is entrepreneurial. Lots of people listening to this are in jobs, and that's great as well. But I think sometimes we forget to stop and ask the question of why.

Like, why are we actually doing it? And money for the sake of other people's approval and validation is in, when I speak to clients and I say, why are you doing it? And they say, actually, when we really drill it, really, really drill it, it is for other people's validation. is for other people's approval, external validation and external approval, whilst also feeling empty and miserable. So what's your advice to people who are listening to this thinking, fuck, that's me. I'm...

You're talking directly to me, but I don't know how to adjust this. I don't know how to change it up. How do I start to think differently, feel differently, start to have different purposes identified? Like, what's your advice to those people? Because I think that's quite an important thing.

Matt Hall (25:40.431)
My advice would be different for different people because we have different drivers. But as a general advice, if I just reflect on advice to myself, it would be do it for the wrong reasons. And I know that sounds controversial, but here's the reason why. Because I can be told something a million times that makes logical sense. But as a human being that is emotional, because we are all human feeling beings.

Sarah Poynton (25:43.433)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton (25:55.421)
Now you go for it.

Sarah Poynton (26:08.477)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Hall (26:09.824)
Nothing will teach you lessons more than the experience of doing it. So for example, now if we look at those things that we spoke about, people used to say, money doesn't make you happy. I had to do that 10K month and then, know, similarly this last week doing the 180 odd K in a week. I have to do that to go, yeah, it actually doesn't. The standing on stage bodybuilding.

had to get those abs, I had to grow those muscles, I had to put that work in to stand on that stage with the tan dripping off my head to go, yeah, I still feel like Matt inside, right? So some of us, that's how we learn. People can tell you to the blue, and this is why having good mentors, good support, you know, communities and accountability is really valid because when you have those moments, you've got the people to talk it through with and to pick you back up. And that's why I didn't have.

Sarah Poynton (26:45.947)
It doesn't. Yeah.

Matt Hall (27:05.232)
back when I was 27 per se, I didn't have other people with experience in these fields. I now do, and I now do that for my clients. But some of us, we have to learn through doing. We have to learn through experience. Nothing will teach you quite the same as a mistake or a failure or a lesson learned from experience. So I think that's part of the parcel is you can listen to these podcasts, we can inspire you, we can tell you what you should be doing. But if on some level there's still a part of you going, but I do want to show those bullies at school.

And I do want to, whatever that narrative is, go and do it so you can show yourself actually this isn't the thing. Now you can figure out what the thing really is.

Sarah Poynton (27:35.539)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton (27:41.289)
What the thing is. Interesting. This is interesting of I. So if.

So you're building your business now, right? And you're currently on a trajectory of growth, which is really exciting. Obviously, follow you online, have done for ages since we met. What do you think the biggest challenge is when it comes to building a business, when it comes to thinking about money specifically, either personal money or money in the business? What do you think your biggest challenges are, in the way you think about it?

Matt Hall (28:18.928)
So my personal ones, if I be kind of really open about this, is when I've started to realize I can make money, I've been less specific about the numbers because if I take a risk and we lose money, it's like, I'll just figure out a solution quickly to make it again. And so there's an element for me, like my journey this last year or so is about adulting, being a little bit more responsible.

rather than that kind of scrappy entrepreneurial, I can just hustle it out, I can just come up with something. My thing has been evolving that now because it did lead us to some really bad cashflow issues to the point where just recently we're making more money than we've ever made. And actually I personally wasn't able to pay myself for a few months. I actually had to get a business loan to help with cashflow. And I think it's important to talk about this because we see...

Sarah Poynton (29:14.611)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (29:15.258)
those huge wins online. Naturally, a lot of my friends, I've had friends who are doing three, four million a year and things like that saying they went through a patch like that last year and they had to get a loan and they're paying 10k a month back loans, you know, just part of their expenses and things like that. And I think it's really important we openly talk about this because we see so many of them. I've just made this, I've just made that and it's always revenue figures. It always includes VAT, you know, it always includes people on payment plans that aren't paying you for weeks. Yeah, let's not talk.

Sarah Poynton (29:37.875)
Always.

Okay now.

drives me insane, Matt.

Matt Hall (29:45.199)
talk about VAT and let's not do that. But that is, you know, and I get it, it's showing the best version and the best angle of what we've achieved. And we have achieved that in sales and that is a great thing to celebrate. And we should talk about the other angle. And so that for me was like, as we're getting bigger and we're making more and there's more responsibility, we need to be more strategic. We need to plan.

Sarah Poynton (29:53.193)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (30:12.184)
I've always been strategic in what we're doing with the business that year, but money I thought we can always play around with based on what I do that week and so on. And now it's been basically more mature as a business owner, being more strategic with cashflow. And I again learned that the hard way with an event we did a few months ago where we actually lost 60,000 pounds on an event that was epic and people love.

but then created major cashflow issues.

Sarah Poynton (30:42.962)
Do you follow the same new adulting rules that you have in your cash for your business in your personal money?

Matt Hall (30:50.608)
Exactly the same exactly the same problems. I just spend I have no fear of consequences If the money goes down, I'll just bring it back up from some and because the other thing is I've got two businesses So like there's two places I'm doing this well, I'll pull some out of that then I'll pay myself extra that month like because that Entrepreneurial hustle is all I've known since being 19 I've never had a budget where you get a job and you will get a set wage that month and you have to think well I have enough at the end of the month

Sarah Poynton (31:02.375)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (31:18.168)
I've always just been like, if we don't have enough, what are we gonna sell today? What will we do to make the money? You know, I've always just been, I guess the upside of that is solutions focus, we find a way. The downside is almost there's no consequences. And then there was, and then suddenly it's too big to just hustle your way out of and we've had to get a loan and things like that.

Sarah Poynton (31:36.786)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (31:40.904)
Interesting. So do you invest money, Matt? Or are you fully focused on business growth at the minute?

Matt Hall (31:47.685)
Yeah, so I have a financial advisor and we invest in like the whole stocks and shares. I pay myself pension from my businesses. I've got like some gold and silver. So yes, but this next, we're literally at that turning point now where I'm about to like have a meeting and go, right, personal wealth now needs to be a bit more of a focus. I mean, look, know, my house that I live in, I've invested in.

You know, there is definitely assets there, like investment assets. But basically I'm just having so much fun in my business. I've always from being 19, made a bit of money and immediately reinvested it, made it reinvested it in the business growth, not in my personal wealth. And now in my 30s, I'm like, this is silly now, Matt, as much as you enjoy that and that's fun, we have to now put more of an emphasis on your personal future and personal wealth building.

Sarah Poynton (32:31.58)
Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Poynton (32:39.26)
Need to do it.

Sarah Poynton (32:44.614)
Yeah, because ultimately you're building a business for yourself, right? That's the point actually is to have a business and have wealth in your life. Interesting.

Matt Hall (32:52.656)
Yeah, and so I've been, I have, I think when I was around, yeah, probably like five years ago is when I started having people on my podcast talking about personal wealth building and investing and starting going, oh, this is definitely a blind spot for me. And that was like me starting to educate myself and then get advice. So it's been about five years of investing to some degree, but now it's about to be like even more of a focus for me.

Sarah Poynton (33:05.49)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton (33:12.572)
Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Poynton (33:21.704)
I think what's interesting is there's a lot of people that listen to this who've read my book, who come to our events. And I often have the conversation where they say, I wish I'd started sooner, I just didn't know how to start. Because to a lot of people, starting with the stock market, buying gold, like whatever those things are, it feels like a dark art that's like just for the banks and the really clever people. And you need like a science degree to figure out the analysis to be able to actually like figure it out.

And the truth is, it's accessible to everybody. If you've got 10 pounds, you can start to invest in the stock market. Like don't need to have a lot of money first. But I think this probably comes back to the point we talked about around like education, even education today, although it's better, financial literacy education is starting to filter into schools. is starting to come a topic that a lot more people are talking There's a lot of people like me online, spreading the word, trying to raise awareness, writing books, doing podcasts, all that sort of stuff. I think there's still this gap between

knowing that you want to do it and knowing how to actually start to do it. And I think even if you've done a little bit of it, like you've said, you've got a bit of stock market, a bit of gold, a of silver, would it be fair to say that you don't necessarily have a total confidence in what and how to choose what to invest in, which gets a little bit in the way of you doing it?

Matt Hall (34:43.344)
100%, and the other thing is that it feels like it's ever evolving and changing and what you should be investing in one year, people are saying is the worst thing to invest in the next year. So absolutely, having that sound, solid go-to place for advice, I think it is confusing for people to know what that place looks like. And it does perfectly come back to growing up where we don't get educated on this in school, which just is ludicrous when we think about the pivotal role it plays in everybody's life.

Sarah Poynton (34:53.489)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (35:11.58)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (35:13.06)
But for me, that first step was how do I learn how to make money, make money and just keep making it, keep making it. And then it's a whole different conversation when we talk about investing and long-term wealth building. And then that's the next chapter. So yeah, think people like you, basically, this is where we need people that you can turn to and have those conversations and listen to content like this. But yeah, I would absolutely say still today. And also I think here's the other thing that we should acknowledge is

Sarah Poynton (35:31.4)
Hmm

Matt Hall (35:43.003)
There's a lot of us like me that if you're not interested in the subject, really hard to concentrate on it and make it a focus. That's where then, you know, getting financial advisor, whatever, or good people that can do a lot of the heavy lifting of that and say, look, these are the basics you need to know. Like just at least when you understand this, because that's the other battle. People are just not interested. It's a bit like subjects at school. Some of them you can't wait to do that class and others you just like,

Sarah Poynton (35:49.64)
Prioritize it. Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (36:01.926)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (36:12.1)
I just want to get through it. But we have to be educated. We have to prioritize it. And that's where good mentors, good source of information is crucial.

Sarah Poynton (36:19.651)
Mm-hmm. I agree. So I'm going to come back to something you said a minute ago, and I'm going to challenge you a little bit on this because I want to know your thoughts. So you said, again, paraphrasing, not quoting, that you invest in assets now, and one of the things you've invested in is the house that you live in. So do you see the house that you live in as an asset?

Matt Hall (36:39.694)
Yeah, I know there's like different schools of thought on that, but effectively it's something where I need somewhere to live anyway. And I'm investing in something that over time, the value of it will grow rather than as we know with like just renting, it's just money going out every single month and you don't have a thing at the end to sell on. So yeah, I see it as an asset, go on, tell me why I'm wrong.

Sarah Poynton (36:43.131)
Mmm.

Sarah Poynton (36:47.676)
Yep.

Sarah Poynton (37:03.687)
It's not so much wrong. think I see the house, I would see the house that you live in as a liability because it costs money. It doesn't add value to your wealth, right? So I think what a lot of people miss on the, so we have a house that we live in and we pay down our mortgage and our equity grows and the market goes up. So the value of the house goes up. That's principle is correct. I completely agree with that. But I think when you actually do the numbers based on what a house costs, you, your,

interest rate on your mortgage and the maintenance of your house to keep it livable so that it's worth what it will sell for when you want to see the up. Actually, when you take into account, let's say you bought it for hundred and you sold it for hundred and fifty, most people say, well, I made fifty thousand. But actually, in that ten years that it's taken to do that, the interest that you've paid on the loan and the maintenance has probably cost more than fifty thousand. So you've actually lost money on it. And I think this is a

Matt Hall (37:41.392)
Mmm.

Sarah Poynton (38:01.735)
My opinion, right, and everybody sits in a different camp, lots of people, you're either in one or the other. I see how she lived in as a liability. It serves the purpose, like you said, it gives you a roof, it keeps you dry, it puts all your things in it and you have that. And arguably there's some schools of thought that say that's better than renting because you've got nothing at the end of it. Some would say actually renting and putting your money to work in the stock market would be better because the stock market would pay your rent so you'd live for free.

Matt Hall (38:27.106)
Mmm.

Sarah Poynton (38:29.639)
But I think there is a security in having a house that you own because it's yours and you haven't got to move, a landlord can't move you on and that sort of stuff. So I think it's just an interesting conversation that probably more people should have because if you're just looking at the commercials of it, a house you live in could never be classified as an asset because it will always cost you money. It will never put money into your wealth unless you're going to do big renovations and add value to it and all that sort of stuff. In which case, that's an investment anyway in my brain.

But if actually you bring in the emotional human part, actually the asset then becomes categorized as that for a lot of people because it gives you that security of a base. And I just think it's quite an interesting conversation.

Matt Hall (38:59.984)
Mmm.

Matt Hall (39:07.93)
And of course, yeah, and of course you're absolutely right. And that when I'm considering it an asset, it's based on all of those things, not just like, you know, the money in versus money out. Cause of course you're absolutely right. And it is just looking at the alternatives and going with what sits best with that individual. For me, having something that I own that there's a level of security in that you don't necessarily have the same as when you're renting is part of that emotional

Sarah Poynton (39:16.614)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (39:35.27)
percent.

Matt Hall (39:36.794)
picture that's built of why I think it's an asset, of course you're absolutely right and of course it's liability.

Sarah Poynton (39:43.491)
Also, I think it depends on how well you buy to start with, how well you maintain, all of the, you know, there's a lot of that stuff as well. I live in a house that's 400 years old and basically there's a new job every year. It's a grade two listed cottage with a thatched roof. It's beautiful, but it's a money pit. Like every time anything goes wrong, it's the worst version of it that it could possibly be because it's 400 years old. So there are some houses that are very easy to maintain, in which case actually your cost, when you really run the numbers on it, it would be different.

Matt Hall (39:47.504)
Right, yeah.

Sarah Poynton (40:13.092)
I think this argument, which happens, I hear it online all the time, I wrote about this in my book as well, I think we have to apply a layer of human being to it when we're talking about it because otherwise, because we do all need somewhere to live ultimately. And the security of having an address that you own that no one can throw you out of unless you don't pay your mortgage, obviously, I think that gives sway to the asset label. But commercially, the house you in is always going to be a liability because it...

costs you money, ultimately.

Matt Hall (40:44.144)
Yeah, and it is, and it's about lifestyle goals, it's about personal choices, isn't it? We'll all determine whether that feels like a good investment or not. And if I think like, just like my first property that I bought was like a one bedroom flat for like 70 grand, and I sold it a year later for I think like 130 or 140, like that was a huge thing, which meant I then ended up with, I think I had a 75,

Sarah Poynton (40:47.884)
Mmm. Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (41:05.626)
Yeah, great.

Matt Hall (41:12.41)
grand deposit on my house. Because we'd made so much on that in such a short space time, which again is about timing and all the things. So like for me personally, it's felt like a good investment. I've been able to grow and already now I'm looking at bigger properties and things, which is in a really small timeframe. So, but you're absolutely right. Of course you are. It's your area of expertise.

Sarah Poynton (41:14.63)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (41:26.245)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (41:38.363)
I think it's just interesting to get, and what I hope for this podcast is that people just get a slightly different way of thinking about various different things that they assume to be factual, but maybe like we can say, well, actually, if I think about it slightly differently, maybe I could approach my money differently. And that topic of the house you live in, asset versus liability, I just think it's one that people should ponder a little bit more. I think it's just an interesting one. So, okay, Matt, if you were somebody who was...

Matt Hall (42:00.067)
100%.

Sarah Poynton (42:08.324)
listening to this podcast and, you know, in a position where they've got a business, they're starting to, you know, make themselves more successful than they've been, they're starting to make a bit more money, but they're noticing in themselves, like, sabotaging tendencies, which you and I definitely have both done and seen, clients do.

We started to make a bit of money, started to hit our targets, and then we go backwards. We're starting to clear off our debt, and then something happens and it goes backwards. We're starting to see this and it goes backwards. I know there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that are going through that cycle, whether it's in business or personal finances. What do you think is the part of the reasons why we sabotage when we start to meet our goals?

Matt Hall (42:57.146)
Two big ones, I think. One is that you've worked really hard to get there and you're now like, I need to have a bit of a break. But you haven't yet hired the right people or wanted to hire the right people to keep that momentum going at the same level when you remove yourself from it. The second one is the fear of that next level of success. It's that fear of more responsibility.

more things that can go wrong, more online hate or judgment or whatever that might be for that individual. I get a quick sneeze in. Love it. So I think they're often quite common things. It's usually one of those two, which then means you're in that cycle of getting to a level and then coming back and that kind of thing. I think overall, it's like the solution for a lot of people is it's having the right mentor.

Sarah Poynton (43:29.094)
Sorry, sneezing.

Matt Hall (43:51.621)
to be able to get them to take a step back. And I think there's two pieces. One is the mindset and the why and understanding themselves a little bit more. But then two is the strategy and looking at it a little bit more logical and strategic. Like how do we get to that next level and break that cycle of getting so far and then dropping back and, you know, look at that trajectory a little bit differently. So that's where I think that outside eye, that mentor that can look at it objectively and support you through those

Sarah Poynton (44:16.774)
Hmm.

Matt Hall (44:21.23)
different decisions is absolutely key for most of us.

Sarah Poynton (44:25.082)
Yeah, I agree, actually. think I've invested a lot of money, I know you've invested a lot of money in mentors and masterminds, some of which have been excellent, by the way, some of which have been absolutely garbage. Like we both accept that there is not, that not everybody is brilliant, but I think having an outsider's perspective, even if it's in the form of a friend whose opinion you respect or a family member whose opinion you respect, who's got maybe a bit more experience with money or, you know, hitting goals than you.

Like having other people give you their opinion, provided you respect their opinion and they've got a little bit of the life that you want. Like don't take the opinion from the bloke in the pub who's drunk 12 pints of Stella on a Tuesday night, because he's not living the life that you want, right? Take the advice and the opinion of people whose life you kind of want to have a little bit of. That outsider's perspective, I think, is a really interesting thing to welcome.

into your brain because I know for me, when I listen to other people's perspectives on my challenges, I'm like, I just never thought about it like that. Because we've got our own structured way of thinking based on our own scripts, based on our own upbringings and inner narratives and belief systems and limiting stuff and all the things. Sometimes you get someone who's just got a completely different script that they're running in their head and then they just go, yeah, but what about if you did it like this? Or what about that? And you think.

Matt Hall (45:33.936)
Mmm.

Matt Hall (45:46.757)
Right.

Sarah Poynton (45:52.742)
That's really obvious, but I didn't think about it. So yeah, I think.

Matt Hall (45:55.333)
that, yeah, and I think it is quite often obvious quote unquote, because it's often simple, but it's just that we weren't thinking in that way. So there's a phrase that I've said for years, which is simplicity scales, complexity fails. And it's just that reminder, I always encourage my clients to come back to like, are we overcomplicating this? Because quite often the answer to the problem is in simplification. You're trying to do too many things at the same time and what...

Sarah Poynton (46:02.905)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (46:22.51)
ends up happening is you do loads of things well or average instead of one thing outstanding that can really scale. So that's why the other thing I would say is do less, better. Like stop doing loads of things well, do one thing at a really high level. And that's where you can then really put gasoline on that growth and keep moving forward rather than the kind of, like you say, a bit more up and down and up and down and we can break that cycle.

Sarah Poynton (46:26.893)
one thing, yeah.

Sarah Poynton (46:45.637)
Great advice, I think. So Matt, I can talk to you about this stuff all day long. And today's been really clear the decks. at the end of every podcast, we always ask a question that's come from a previous guest. And then we're to ask you for a question to give to our next guest. So the question that was left by a previous guest was, how much money is enough money?

Matt Hall (46:50.436)
Let's do it. Let's clear the diary. Let's just keep going.

Matt Hall (47:11.438)
And such a great question. I think that number can change. I think dependent on, because every time you earn more money, your lifestyle changes, your, and just generally growing like in life, what you, the impact you want to make, the legacy you want to leave, whatever that thing is for that individual, I don't think like we should just stay stuck for our life with any of these questions. It should be an ongoing.

evolution. So I think what that comes down to is constant or regular self-reflection because what you wrote as a number a year ago might be wildly different. And to give you like one quick example, our biggest launch early last year was a launch that we did 42,000 pounds in a week. And then fast forward this year, it's nearly 190,000 in seven, in seven days. And

like based on where I'm at right now, if we'd have only done 40,000, I would have been like, this is the biggest failure ever. Whereas last year was the biggest success ever in just 12 months. So our money mindset and everything will evolve as our experiences evolve. I think what's crucial is that number can change, but it's the, and we've touched on it in this session, it's the why. What would that next level of money add? What would it bring? You know, how would it change your life?

Sarah Poynton (48:20.079)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (48:41.686)
And is the pursuit of that next level worth it? That's the key thing.

Sarah Poynton (48:45.241)
worth it. What a really good thing to say for the end of this is the pursuit of that next level worth it. This is something that no one ever said to me ever. And I reached a point in my business where the pursuit of that level of success wasn't worth it for me. And I'm actually happy that I've gone backwards in words like if you look at my accounts, the numbers are lower now.

but I am happier now. So actually, I see that as progress, but if you are just assessing me on my money and how much money I've made and profit and loss and all the things that go with companies' stuff, actually, the pursuit of that level of success wasn't worth it for me because it was nonstop. Because I live, similarly to you, very public life on social media, predominantly.

Matt Hall (49:17.178)
Right.

Sarah Poynton (49:42.212)
and we sell in that space, it's toxic as fuck, and when someone wants to come for you, it's awful. I know you know that personally as well, same as me. And honestly, Matt, it just wasn't worth it to be waking up in the morning in a state of fucking misery before I'd even opened my phone, knowing that someone on there was gonna come for me today. Like, it just wasn't worth it. I'd rather have less money and more happiness than have all the money in the world and be in a state of...

unhappiness, unfulfilled, unfulfillment is being unfulfilled. Like is the pursuit of the level of success that you're going after actually worth the sacrifices and the lifestyle that is going to give you? And I think the, in a podcast where we talk about money and having more money and making more money and investing more money and, you know, ultimately trying to enjoy money, I think it's really important that we never forget that.

We've got to know that that pursuit is worth, what we get at the end of it is what we actually want and not bullshit.

Matt Hall (50:44.432)
And again, I think it probably for most people, like they'll know what that looks like from the experience, just like you're saying there, of going to that next level and going, actually, this isn't worth it. So now I can really confidently, just as you are now, say I'm happy earning less this year. Not from an ego perspective, like I've been to those higher levels, I've seen what it takes and it's not worth it to me. So actually, now I know my enough number. And I don't think...

Sarah Poynton (50:55.042)
No thanks, yeah.

Sarah Poynton (51:06.053)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton (51:10.276)
Yeah.

Matt Hall (51:11.854)
we can actually confidently know our enough number, just writing it down on paper, plucking out a thin air, even like going through, like, this is how much for my bills, this is how much I'd want left over, even when you've done that, you won't really know until A, you get there, but B, you understand the pursuit to get there. So I think it's regularly checking in, it's regularly coming up with those goals, but you really will find it through the experience of going for it.

Sarah Poynton (51:26.489)
You're in it.

Yeah, I think it's fair.

Matt Hall (51:37.496)
And then you can course correct and adjust from that experience, not just from logically writing it down.

Sarah Poynton (51:43.077)
Interesting, interesting. Thank you very much. So leave us a question for our next guest. What would you like us to ask?

Matt Hall (51:50.865)
So it follows on perfectly from that because we're talking about money, we're talking about what money can bring you, can bring with it for good and for bad. And if we go back to me at 19, I thought, or even younger, like being rich and famous will solve all the world problems. I thought that was the journey to success. And as we know, it wasn't quite what I thought it was. And I think that's so common for so many people. So I think the obvious question,

that I should leave us with is the same question I always ask on my podcast, which is very simply, what is your personal definition of success?

Sarah Poynton (52:28.1)
Great question. I will make sure we get that asked. Matt, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure catching up with you. It's been too long. We should definitely catch up a bit more often next time. We'll maybe do in person at some point. That'd be good fun. Yeah, we'll definitely do that. Thank you so much for your time and for your very honest account of everything that's been going on. And I will speak to you soon. No worries. Matt, if people want to get in touch with you, how do they do that?

Matt Hall (52:41.488)
That could be a goal. Let's make it happen.

Matt Hall (52:51.664)
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Matt Hall (52:57.508)
Best thing is get me on Instagram. Matt Hall Official is my main platform, is where I hang out. Come and get me there, come and connect. And I always say, like, if you've listened to this and there's been anything that's resonated, whatever, genuinely do take a moment, just drop us a DM. I think so often we can listen to podcasts just passively and then move on to the next episode or do something else without remembering, like, these people, we are real people, that there might be a collaboration opportunity, there might be something we can help each other with. We might work together, like...

Sarah Poynton (53:13.838)
No, no,

Matt Hall (53:27.098)
Drop me a DM if there's any synergy there or equally if you thought I was a bit of a knob, you could just go, great episode that you're a bit of a knob. That's cool too. But it's always nice, isn't it? Just to hear from people who've actually spent time listening to us. So do connect with me, Matt Hall official on Instagram.

Sarah Poynton (53:34.756)
You're enough. Yeah.

Sarah Poynton (53:43.716)
Thank you so much, Matt. See you later.

Matt Hall (53:45.52)
Thank you.