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Speaker 1
Is autism being over diagnosed? Is social media harming ADHD awareness and is ADHD medication harming our kids? Today, on the hottest day of the year, we are taking on neurodivergent hot takes and.

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Speaker 2
We're going to try and not get canceled in doing so. Welcome to Late Bloomers, where we are getting our lives together eventually.

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Speaker 1
Oh.

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Speaker 2
So these are controversial questions, right?

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Speaker 1
They are.

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Speaker 2
They might even be controversial answers.

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Speaker 1
They might.

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Speaker 2
So maybe a disclaimer. Disclaimer we are just people with opinions don't necessarily. Right.

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Speaker 1
Don't listen to us. We're idiots. Yeah. Two idiots on the internet. But also we do have opinions, and that's okay. You might disagree with them. You might agree with them. You might not be kind. Be courteous in the comments, my darlings.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1
I'm a little bit nervous about this one.

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Speaker 2
I don't really know. So you've got all of the questions.

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Speaker 1
The ten hottest takes.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. So I'll give. I'll answer honestly. Yeah. Give a bit of context. And then I suppose you give your opinion. Okay as well.

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Speaker 1
Number one.

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Speaker 2
Okay.

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Speaker 1
Has social media helped or harmed ADHD awareness?

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Speaker 2
I mean, I've got to say helped. Right. No no no.

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Speaker 1
Sorry. Dig into it.

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Speaker 2
I believe that it's helped because I think before social media, there was sort of very little awareness. So suppose what what does the question mean. Does it mean, oh, everyone thinks they're ADHD nowadays or does it mean if someone's got ADHD there's more resources out there?

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Speaker 1
I think it could mean both. Like if how is it helped? Well, I found out from the internet and we hear gorgeous things from our followers. Hey, listen to this pod or read a book or dubby users who through this community have found help in the feeling of not being alone. People that say it's harmed would maybe be saying we're focusing too much on it.

00;02;04;20 - 00;02;20;15
Speaker 1
It's being over diagnosed. Are we feeding into paying private clinics or paying for medication? Like, I can understand why someone might hold that opinion. It's just my opinion is different. Of course we're going to be a little bit biased.

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Speaker 2
I also think I remember when I was in the bank someone used to work with, went through the diagnosis of being diagnosed with ADHD and and it was long. It was drawn out. There wasn't much knowledge about it at all. What I can say categorically is whether it's helped or harmed. The world wasn't prepared for it. Like with the wait lists and stuff, like we are not equipped to deal with it.

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Speaker 1
The internet spread like wildfire. Oh my God, there's loads of us losing our phone eight times a day. I'm forgetting things. Turning up to the wrong place, dealing with RSD. Like for me, it will always be an incredible thing because it changed my life finding out. I had ADHD.

00;03;05;23 - 00;03;26;11
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think also you said it already, but everyone we speak to is like and all the comments and DM's that we get is like, I felt so alone. So it's that sense of community that you're not you're not the weirdo, the odd one out. There's actually loads of people that struggle I think brings a lovely sense of community.

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Speaker 1
So. So we're saying. Help! Help!

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Number two, is masking always bad?

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Speaker 2
No, I don't think it is. That could be a controversial answer. Right.

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Speaker 1
So masking in the divergent community is really demonized. And I understand why people have been pretending to be okay pretending to be neurotypical, often for years or decades. It's led to burnout, self-hatred, a lack of their authentic self living in the world. So the narrative is unmask. Stop masking. Be yourself. Yeah. So?

00;04;09;18 - 00;04;32;19
Speaker 2
So yeah, I disagree with that. I, I think when you're at home and you're with safe people, my unequivocal, advice would be to unmask and be yourself and be comfortable and let off steam and recharge your batteries and all of that. But there's a place for masking. There is a time and a place, and I'm thinking work.

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Speaker 2
When I was a bank manager, I would I would not have got where I was in my career if I was completely unmasked all of the time. And I'm talking about board meetings, the way that you conduct yourself with people. Yeah. It's tough. Yeah, it's challenging. But even if even in its raw is form, if a customer came in and they were complaining and they were complaining like unwarranted and they were idiots.

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Speaker 2
Right. Like, you have to mask in that moment to make them believe that they're valued and correct and all that sort of stuff, rather than if I had said like, you're wrong, get out.

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Speaker 1
I mean, I don't even know if that's autistic masking or just, like, wearing a professional mask. Like, where do we draw that line? I think it's gorgeous. When you said the difference between at home and at work, like being at work kind of by definition is you're going to be wearing a mask because you're like acting a job that you've learned.

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Speaker 1
And there's like rules in that sense. It's it's really good to be able to play by the rules in, at work in certain situations. But at home is where you should be. Your wild, wonderful, weird, wonky. Yeah, self. I have changed my mind whilst listening to you. I was probably going to say masking was always bad because I was like a high masker my whole life.

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Speaker 1
Like everything's fine. Yeah. People pleasing hide the anxiety maniac while suffering horrendous mental health implications. And but I do mask my entire music job is masking. Yeah, I get dressed up as another character. Literally. It's a physical mask so I can get through performances or jobs and.

00;06;18;23 - 00;06;43;23
Speaker 2
I mask as well. And this might be some people listening to this will know what I'm talking about. When we went and done the, late bloomers, this episode on stage at download We were, you decided that we were going to go and meet everyone in the front row. Obviously the right thing to do. I like didn't want to be there, but I, I but I'm also really grateful for everyone there.

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Speaker 2
But I was like tired, I was knackered, I was acting like I was it was great to meet everyone and everyone's. Everyone's amazing. Nothing against them.

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Speaker 1
No. For you. You were now tired. It was hot. You don't love meeting strangers? Yeah. Okay, so no, masking isn't always bad, I love it. Look at us go number three. Oh.

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Speaker 1
Is the autism spectrum too big?

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Speaker 2
So I think that it is.

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Speaker 1
That is such a hot take. And I'm so worried about where this is going to go.

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Speaker 2
All right, let me explain. So we don't diagnose Asperger's anymore. I don't know, like there's some horrible link to someone that wasn't very nice. I don't know why that was.

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Speaker 1
Think he was a Nazi, right?

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Speaker 2
Okay, so I understand why we wouldn't call it that, but I think just removing that segment was a mistake. Now, let me explain. I am autistic, I have different needs to neurotypical people. Things affect me differently. So I'm not saying that I don't have needs and I don't have struggles. Why am saying no is there are people out there that can't work, can't live independently, can't even speak?

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Speaker 2
So to say that I'm the same as them is simply wrong. Like I run a business with you. I get overstimulated by sounds, textures, all that sort of stuff, but their needs are greater than mine, so I don't like. I feel like a bit of an imposter when it's like the same thing.

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Speaker 1
I think it's absolutely common sense and common kindness to recognize where people's struggles are much bigger than your own. We don't see enough of it online. In people that kind of advocate for autism, there's a skew towards kind of lower support needs, of course, because they can do it. But of course, when someone wants to validate themselves, let's say they haven't had support for a really long time, they really want to push that and make sure they're validated.

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Speaker 1
And sometimes that can end up speaking over or taking space from from other people. But I want to like, slightly push you.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Because I fully agree with what you're saying, which is they take take away the sort of Asperger's it became ASD, autism spectrum disorder. And you believe some people within that have got different support needs? I don't think anyone's going to argue with that. But what the question was, is, is the spectrum too big? I don't think you're saying that you're not on the spectrum.

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Speaker 1
I think you're just saying that you've got really different needs to someone that falls somewhere else on the spectrum.

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Speaker 2
But I still potentially an unpopular opinion. I feel like there could be two different spectrums rather than one massive one. And the reason being, let's be real, the face of autism people's preconceived ideas about autism is, is people like me. Other people that talk about autism may be good at maths pattern recognition, and there's a whole segment that like get left behind.

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Speaker 2
So like that. Yeah. So look, I know spectrums are supposed to be big, whatever. But I just, I don't know, I my opinion is it's, it's too large for the same word.

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Speaker 1
Yeah I can understand that. I don't think it's something I want to listen to your opinion on that because that's where you currently diagnosed of it.

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Speaker 2
There you go.

00;10;50;17 - 00;11;14;18
Speaker 1
It's funny because with ADHD, if you meet someone with ADHD, there is an inherent similarity. Now they might have the high practice type or the inattentive type, or they might be slightly more anxious and therefore arrive two hours early rather than an hour late. But there is an inherent similarity that you can find with people with ADHD. But that isn't always the case with autism.

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Speaker 1
It is a lot bigger.

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Speaker 2
You can have a wild swing, and you're a good example of this, of where people's reality is. So you have gone from living in, you know, a nice house, family support, a good career, but you've come from living in a dark, not being able to pay your bills, getting bailiffs, rip your electricity meter out because in your life was falling apart.

00;11;38;29 - 00;11;59;16
Speaker 2
But your support needs haven't changed across those two realities. It's it and they're very similar across the board. I would say with ADHD, obviously everyone's different. Not all ADHD people are exactly the same, but there'll be similarities.

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Speaker 1
Okay. Number four, should you tell your boss you're neurodivergent?

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Speaker 2
Oh, God, I don't know.

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Speaker 1
Can I go fast?

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Speaker 2
Yeah, you go first.

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Speaker 1
I would like to say yes.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
We have visited some really awesome companies in the UK that have got teams like Neurodivergent Leeds who are creating quiet rooms, flexible working hours, taking that harsh, bright lighting down to like sensory lighting, earphones for people in the office. And they've blown me away. They've it's like, wow, you are taking care of your neurodivergent employees. It makes it much more community, a better place to work.

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Speaker 1
You don't feel left out or behind. So like when you are working for a company or a boss that gets it, validates it, wants to help. Amazing. You can like unlock the best version of you at work.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;13;08;00 - 00;13;21;08
Speaker 1
But then I remember one place we were and I won't even remember the name. Luckily, a guy sort of put his hand up and was like, this is just going to get in the way of work. It's just an.

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Speaker 2
Excuse.

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Speaker 1
To not do their work. And I remember being like, oh my God. And then someone in the front row that had ADHD side crying, he ended up storming out and I was like, okay, this is way more difficult than what the sort of neurodiversity advocacy makes us think, which is everyone's going to be pro and let's all support each other.

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Speaker 1
There's some real douchebags out there.

00;13;46;14 - 00;14;00;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think going back to the question, should you tell your boss I would, the answer should be yes. But like it isn't always and you'll know whether they're safe to tell or not.

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Speaker 1
Depends on the boss. But maybe there's a line manager, a coworker. Go right to the top. Go to the CEO. That's what I'd do. Yeah, yeah. So it's a little bit nuanced, but I think it's good not to just like blank it. Yeah. Yes. Because we live in the real world and there's a lot of idiots. Okay. Number five, can therapy work for neurodivergent people?

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Speaker 2
Well, I can speak for me. And and the answer would be yes.

00;14;29;23 - 00;14;52;23
Speaker 1
So there's a lot of takes online that say that standard therapy doesn't work for neurodivergent people because they're too self-aware. They've done a lot of thinking, they've got a lot of self-awareness, and actually it's not helping them. So they then decide that there doesn't work.

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Speaker 2
Right. Well I disagree. Like why? I don't understand why. Because they've done a thinking they're all they're all of a sudden more self-aware. I don't understand why they would be more self-worth because I wasn't.

00;15;08;15 - 00;15;39;16
Speaker 1
The problem between believing self-awareness is the same thing as getting better. And in fact, actually people who are overly self-aware, that is a sign of mental illness, of needing support. That rumination about self and obsessive searching through trying to figure out if it doesn't help you actually live a better, happier, fuller life. It's not actually a good thing.

00;15;39;17 - 00;15;51;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think sometimes we can, in your circles, like, blow our own trumpets a bit so sensitive or so self-aware. Normal things don't work for us. Was actually. That could be a sign of the problem.

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Speaker 2
And it's probably not accurate either. Right. So you might believe that yourself aware, but you probably haven't like really delved into childhood relationships and dynamics and stuff like that.

00;16;03;13 - 00;16;33;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. And there's a big difference between delving into it mentally and delving into it emotionally. And you know, I guess also there's different types of therapies. If you were talking about something like a thought based like a CBT, then I could kind of understand. But if you're talking about Semantic Therapy's eMDR, my favorite psychoanalysis, I mean, they work on the body and on the subconscious.

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Speaker 1
You cannot be aware of what those things are working on by the very nature of what they are.

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Speaker 2
There's something about eMDR and neurodivergent. I think there was someone like, that's not a therapy. You should be like, I remember reading a debate online, I'm not intelligent enough or qualified enough to give an opinion.

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Speaker 1
It depends on the person. I've had people say eMDR completely changed their life and healed traumas from childhood.

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Speaker 2
But were they neurodivergent?

00;17;00;29 - 00;17;01;26
Speaker 1
I don't know.

00;17;02;00 - 00;17;03;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I've.

00;17;03;03 - 00;17;04;13
Speaker 1
My experience.

00;17;04;14 - 00;17;05;02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;17;05;08 - 00;17;07;00
Speaker 1
Are you just thinking of what happened to me?

00;17;07;01 - 00;17;25;21
Speaker 2
No. I'm thinking I remember it being. Someone suggested it as a therapy type. And then there was loads of people jumped on comments. Be like, that would never be recommended for somebody who's neurodivergent, blah blah, blah, blah. And I just don't know. So we need to be a little bit careful about like, I don't know.

00;17;25;22 - 00;17;46;18
Speaker 1
We do not know. No. We're just like talking about hot takes. But out of interest, what happened to me was, I was doing eMDR, and I basically just, like, pretended because, like, people pleased the therapists. She was like, how do you feel about this thing now? And I gave a number. And then she did the eMDR, and I sort of tried to go with it.

00;17;46;18 - 00;18;00;14
Speaker 1
I felt really anxious and weird, and I sort of made some stuff up. And then she was like, how would you feel about it now? And I gave a better number because I knew I was meant to. So I wanted her to feel like it had worked. So I just remember thinking, bloody hell, this isn't this one isn't for me.

00;18;00;17 - 00;18;00;25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;18;00;26 - 00;18;10;14
Speaker 1
Okay. Okay. Very quick word from our gorgeous sponsor.

00;18;10;16 - 00;18;13;25
Speaker 1
Right back to trying not to get canceled. Number six. Are you ready?

00;18;13;26 - 00;18;14;27
Speaker 2
Yes. I'm ready.

00;18;14;28 - 00;18;16;05
Speaker 1
Oh my lord.

00;18;16;09 - 00;18;18;27
Speaker 2
Well, just going to get well.

00;18;18;28 - 00;18;26;16
Speaker 1
Can neurodivergent be weaponized in relationships?

00;18;26;18 - 00;19;06;10
Speaker 2
Yes, I think that it can. What we need to. What we need to understand, everyone, is that you are obviously neurodivergent, but you're also still a person. And people can be lazy. People can be manipulative. People can lie. So there is no just because you're neurodivergent. So. So let's take ADHD. If there was a messy room and you have the ability to tidy up because of everything that you've gone through and you go, oh, I can't, I didn't cause ADHD, lol.

00;19;06;12 - 00;19;29;03
Speaker 2
That is not that. That in my opinion is weaponizing. I know that their struggles, but there is a difference between trying and getting overwhelmed or not trying. There's there are people out here trying to do difficult things and that you don't. You're not excused of that because you're neurodivergent. I don't think so.

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Speaker 1
I walk a fine line.

00;19;32;26 - 00;20;03;20
Speaker 1
I'm still fighting with myself on this one. Yeah. With you, because I sometimes really struggle with what autism brings to the relationship. And I sometimes wonder whether you are. And I don't really mean this. I love you with rocking and rolling, but in my, like, worst moments, in my most judgmental moments, I could wonder, is that being weaponized against me?

00;20;03;21 - 00;20;32;25
Speaker 1
Like, if I suggest something? Oh no, I don't like the plan changing. I'm like, it's that it's that real? It's that real? Or is that to get your own way? Now, I have obscene amounts of trust with you, so I'll 99.99% of the time will swing to. It's real. But even in our relationship, six years together and happy as Bloom and Larry, it can still just make me think.

00;20;32;27 - 00;20;43;11
Speaker 1
Because it would be easy to do. If you don't like something, I'm doing it. Turn that down. Noise sensitivity. Oh, I don't want to come to your gig. It's too loud.

00;20;43;14 - 00;20;44;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;20;45;01 - 00;20;46;21
Speaker 1
No. Do you know what I mean?

00;20;46;22 - 00;20;49;27
Speaker 2
I have the same thoughts about you.

00;20;49;29 - 00;20;53;11
Speaker 1
The where again, like you just being lazy little.

00;20;53;12 - 00;21;03;27
Speaker 2
I wonder from. Yeah. He struggles to stay on top of this too. Is she taking the piss? Like, what are these clothes doing it? I've just done 16 loads of washing.

00;21;03;29 - 00;21;23;15
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think it's so it can be weaponized. We know that it is your personal responsibility not to weaponize it, so I have to be vigilant about me. Yeah. Is this real? Am I struggling? Do I need help or could I?

00;21;23;17 - 00;21;24;29
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;21;25;01 - 00;21;25;29
Speaker 1
Same of you.

00;21;26;01 - 00;21;26;21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;21;26;25 - 00;21;31;17
Speaker 1
Are you struggling? Do you need help? You need to talk to me. Or is it just. Could you.

00;21;31;22 - 00;21;54;05
Speaker 2
Well, it's also the easy road out, right? So there will be. There'll be truth in both of those examples. Clothes or change of plans or. I find this difficult. That doesn't immediately mean we can't change the plan. Yeah. It's like yeah, we can. I'm just like freaking out a little bit about it. So can we just take a minute, take a beat?

00;21;54;05 - 00;21;54;23
Speaker 2
Whatever.

00;21;54;24 - 00;22;24;16
Speaker 1
Conversation kind of compromise? Yeah. And yeah, that is that is so good. I also think it's so important to say that there's also unhealthy abusive relationship dynamics. And I can imagine for some people this could be really, really real. A partner that refuses to do anything or to help or to give cuddles or emotion like it, it can be really difficult.

00;22;24;16 - 00;22;30;16
Speaker 1
So I just want to sort of send a bit of love and support to someone that's facing that. And I'm sorry.

00;22;30;17 - 00;22;32;27
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;22;32;29 - 00;22;40;08
Speaker 1
It's made me sad. Okay. Number seven. Oh good god.

00;22;40;11 - 00;22;44;12
Speaker 1
Is self-diagnosis valid?

00;22;44;14 - 00;23;15;07
Speaker 2
I mean, it has to be. And like less ADHD to start the waiting list is too long to for it not to be like it kind of has to be. And what we're talking about now for autism and ADHD is if you think you are, that just means that you might need help and support. Like you shouldn't not get that help and support just because you haven't seen the doctor yet.

00;23;15;08 - 00;23;36;01
Speaker 2
Like you don't go from walking along the street thinking you're neurotypical, bumping into a doctor and they'd be like, oh, you're a stick. Oh cool. I'm diagnosed now. You will go through that process of thinking. You are probably taking numerous online tests that all that all point to that you're on a road of urgent. So like there's something in it.

00;23;36;03 - 00;23;42;04
Speaker 2
Now, we're not doctors. We're not saying that everyone that thinks they're not a virgin is neurodivergent. It's more complicated.

00;23;42;04 - 00;23;44;00
Speaker 1
Than that. That's your opinion? I have a different opinion.

00;23;44;01 - 00;23;45;11
Speaker 2
Oh, right.

00;23;45;13 - 00;23;48;09
Speaker 1
I don't think it is you.

00;23;48;15 - 00;23;50;08
Speaker 2
What? You don't think what is?

00;23;50;09 - 00;23;56;20
Speaker 1
I don't think a self-diagnosis is a valid diagnosis.

00;23;56;22 - 00;24;00;05
Speaker 2
Right? What do you mean?

00;24;00;08 - 00;24;06;19
Speaker 1
So diagnosis is a word that has a meaning.

00;24;06;22 - 00;24;07;12
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;24;07;15 - 00;24;33;09
Speaker 1
You've been diagnosed. And we have to keep that. Because if you can self-diagnose, what's the point in being there's no difference between being diagnosed. So I think it's a linguistic thing for me self-diagnosis is the first step towards diagnosis. It's absolutely valid for acting as if and getting support. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it a valid diagnosis. Yeah.

00;24;33;10 - 00;24;34;17
Speaker 1
Does that make sense.

00;24;34;19 - 00;24;36;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00;24;36;03 - 00;25;06;18
Speaker 1
So it's really important just to understand the language. Now we're talking about ADHD. What about other things. Could you self-diagnose as having a anxiety disorder. Self-diagnosed as having BPD self-diagnosed as psychotic. We just have to be really, really careful that there is still a level of education and knowledge and clarification that comes from therapist, psychiatrist, doctor.

00;25;06;21 - 00;25;34;10
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let me be controversial. And I'm not saying I believe this, but, like ADHD is, I'm not talking about here because that can have medication like attached to it and stuff. But let's just take autism. But my kind of autism, like, what I am right, is diagnosis needed. Like, is it like what would happen if all of a sudden it just didn't exist anymore?

00;25;34;14 - 00;25;48;17
Speaker 1
Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we sort of realized you might be your kid is. And the internet told you that you were. So I started acting as if you were. But if you're. And it made both of our lives easier.

00;25;48;18 - 00;25;58;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. If you're entitled to and should and you should be entitled to support and the help and all of that, and what's the difference between the two for that particular example.

00;25;58;04 - 00;25;58;25
Speaker 1
For you?

00;25;58;26 - 00;26;01;06
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;26;01;08 - 00;26;25;22
Speaker 1
You still believed you didn't have it up until the moment. Yeah. That you were still like, I don't think it's me. Imposter syndrome. Not disabled enough. Understand? That's very nuanced. It did change. Yeah. And now you get to talk about it in a in a different way. We never really would speak about it even on the pod, because there was still a doubt.

00;26;25;23 - 00;26;28;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. That okay. That makes sense.

00;26;28;27 - 00;26;32;09
Speaker 1
But yeah. Interesting. Okay. You ready for the next one?

00;26;32;11 - 00;26;33;08
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;26;33;11 - 00;26;37;27
Speaker 1
Oh. Number eight, are schools failing neurodivergent kids?

00;26;38;00 - 00;27;01;09
Speaker 2
Oh, God. I'm too old to answer that question. Like, I don't know. I think about school when I was a kid and it was like, not. But now I don't know what happens. Like, my sister in law is like the send head, and I know they speak about it so much more and there's so much more training and support.

00;27;01;12 - 00;27;07;10
Speaker 2
Certainly. And like, she's amazing, but I don't know whether that's the same in all schools. Like I haven't got a clue.

00;27;07;18 - 00;27;27;27
Speaker 1
It's going to be different. It will depend on the school, their funding, the teachers, their style of parenting and teaching. We know from our community that kids are being really let down across the country. And of course, you can have someone incredible.

00;27;28;00 - 00;27;29;01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;27;29;04 - 00;27;55;23
Speaker 1
On the team. But I think there's a broader problem, which is that just school itself, the way school is set up like a 9 to 5 office job, that does not suit a lot of neurodivergent kids. Yeah. So they end up even being naughty, failing, being told they got potential but not reaching it. Like, you start to develop a negative self-esteem just from trying to have your little 9 to 5 school job.

00;27;55;24 - 00;28;22;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. In an ideal world, what would school look like for neurodivergent kids? I'll talk about ADHD kids. I mean, it would just never happen. We wouldn't have the funding, but it would be flexible hours, loads more physical activity, loads more creativity. Yeah. Being able to go after hyper focuses, even if it was ancient Egypt history.

00;28;22;20 - 00;28;23;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00;28;23;26 - 00;28;34;18
Speaker 1
But that doesn't exist. So we're as long as school feels like a mini version of a 9 to 5, I think it's always going to end up excluding and punishing neurodivergent kids.

00;28;34;19 - 00;28;41;08
Speaker 2
Yeah, I agree.

00;28;41;11 - 00;28;54;25
Speaker 1
It's all good. Number eight. Almost done guys. No. Number nine. This is a bit we've gone a bit spicy on this one, but I don't think it's as spicy as the other one we were going to do.

00;28;54;26 - 00;28;57;27
Speaker 2
No.

00;28;57;29 - 00;29;30;05
Speaker 2
You're diagnosed. Self-diagnosis is not valid. Might get some.

00;29;30;08 - 00;29;33;23
Speaker 2
But all this fucking staging for it all to be ripped up.

00;29;33;26 - 00;29;40;18
Speaker 1
We'll have a lovely room in here and we're not doing that anytime soon, are we? Like, no, that might not be till next year.

00;29;40;24 - 00;29;43;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Be the end of this year, I reckon.

00;29;43;23 - 00;29;45;10
Speaker 1
Right. Ready to rumble?

00;29;45;12 - 00;29;47;26
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;29;47;29 - 00;29;50;00
Speaker 1
Reddish. Number eight.

00;29;50;02 - 00;29;51;27
Speaker 2
Yeah I am.

00;29;52;00 - 00;29;58;26
Speaker 1
Can parenting change the trajectory of ADHD outcomes?

00;29;58;28 - 00;30;03;13
Speaker 2
I think that parenting can change a trajectory for all our.

00;30;03;17 - 00;30;05;13
Speaker 1
Only in all outcomes.

00;30;05;14 - 00;30;10;14
Speaker 2
It wouldn't change whether somebody is a divergent or not, but it would change their experience.

00;30;10;14 - 00;30;14;04
Speaker 1
I feel like that question could have been more controversial.

00;30;14;05 - 00;30;14;21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;30;14;22 - 00;30;23;10
Speaker 1
Like does parenting affect ADHD? And there's loads of shit a shatter about that online, isn't there?

00;30;23;12 - 00;30;40;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, I guess it would. It would definitely impact the ADHD experience. Like if you keep forgetting if you're getting I rolled and huffed and stuff like that. Like that will add to the core belief that you're a rubbish human being.

00;30;40;28 - 00;30;51;22
Speaker 1
Which by the way, actually I do have a slightly controversial take. Go on. I actually think parenting is the biggest possible impact on ADHD outcomes.

00;30;51;23 - 00;30;52;11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;30;52;12 - 00;31;17;20
Speaker 1
Because your parenting or how you were parented creates the inner voice of how you relate to ADHD. So I remember working with a guy a couple of years ago. I can't diagnose anyone ADHD, okay, let's just say super creative in his own head, couldn't sit still on his feet, always forgetting things. He didn't even think he had ADHD.

00;31;17;21 - 00;31;38;17
Speaker 1
He was just so happy, so confident, had such good self-esteem and you kind of hear his story. His parents saw he was creative. Early on, he was put into music lessons. He was able to go and study at music college. He's never, ever been shamed, made to feel like he's not good enough. His differences were encouraged and he's just out there.

00;31;38;18 - 00;32;07;03
Speaker 1
He's still living and dealing with ADHD. Sorry I'm running late, but maybe sorry I've forgotten to send that thing. But there was no shame. Yeah, I actually think the worst part of ADHD is how you feel about yourself. Yeah, because like, losing things, the getting things like you, you can work around that. You can be okay. It's the crippling self-hatred and self-talk that ruins lives.

00;32;07;06 - 00;32;34;23
Speaker 2
So here's a hot take. Then the that example. I can see why he's really, like, got I self-esteem. But he works in an industry that sort of allows and even expects it. Everyone's late all the time in music. It just happens. But what happens if validate, validate, validate parents and then they go and get an office job? That's not the reality of the real world.

00;32;34;24 - 00;32;52;03
Speaker 1
I don't think it's validate validate. It's not like don't worry that you're late. It's just like, it's okay. You've got other skills. It's building up the strengths and being realistic about the weaknesses. That's what healthy self-esteem is. It isn't the coddling parent that's like, no, nothing's wrong with it. You never have to be on time. Don't worry.

00;32;52;04 - 00;33;01;03
Speaker 2
Like I agree, but I still am not sure that that really helps in the office environment. I don't worry I guess. Skills.

00;33;01;04 - 00;33;20;27
Speaker 1
I guess he probably didn't even consider an office job because it was spotted early that that might not work. Yeah. You know, and I just think so many of us walking around with ADHD are walking around with the internalized voice of a parent that just thought we were a pain in the ass doing it on purpose. The touch, the naughtiness, the telling us off.

00;33;21;04 - 00;33;24;15
Speaker 1
So you're just scared of your own shadow, which is a shame.

00;33;24;15 - 00;33;26;02
Speaker 2
I think we're in agreement on that one, aren't we?

00;33;26;03 - 00;33;26;11
Speaker 1
Wow.

00;33;26;13 - 00;33;26;25
Speaker 2
Are we?

00;33;26;26 - 00;33;31;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And lovely. Left, left. The most controversial to last.

00;33;31;12 - 00;33;33;14
Speaker 2
Wait, you just said number eight for that one.

00;33;33;16 - 00;33;34;14
Speaker 1
That was number nine.

00;33;34;15 - 00;33;39;11
Speaker 2
Oh, right. Okay. Two. Number eight. Straight to number ten. So number ten eight.

00;33;39;13 - 00;33;42;08
Speaker 1
Is ADHD medication the best treatment?

00;33;42;11 - 00;33;43;24
Speaker 2
Oh, God, I don't know.

00;33;43;25 - 00;33;50;06
Speaker 1
Me neither. Look, we're not doctors, but it's interesting because I don't take ADHD medication.

00;33;50;08 - 00;33;52;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, but you're not telling people not to.

00;33;52;23 - 00;34;17;26
Speaker 1
No, I've always my. All the years on the internet, I like, never speak about it. Because I don't want to influence anyone in, like, a serious medical way like that is for you in your life and your doctor, and. But I can speak about it now because I've recently had a change of opinion. So I think I might have gone from like a counselor bill cancel.

00;34;17;26 - 00;34;20;13
Speaker 1
A bill can cancel.

00;34;20;15 - 00;34;21;17
Speaker 2
Oh, you mean yeah.

00;34;21;18 - 00;34;30;19
Speaker 1
Cancel bill opinion to like, maybe a more nuanced opinion. Okay, so I was for me, like, quite anti-American.

00;34;30;20 - 00;34;33;04
Speaker 2
Yeah, but that's all medication. Really?

00;34;33;04 - 00;34;54;26
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. It comes back to a couple of months after my mum died. I was 22. I went to the doctors and they gave me a form to fill out and they were like, well, you've ticked enough boxes of this form to be prescribed an antidepressant. And I left with an antidepressant. And then I found out that the form was created by the company that made the antidepressant.

00;34;54;26 - 00;35;14;17
Speaker 1
And I remember feeling really, really angry because actually I was grieving, and I, I needed to talk about that. Yeah. And I was just given pills for it. So I was I was kind of created a bit of a anti big pharma conspiracy theory theories at that point. Fair enough.

00;35;14;18 - 00;35;14;27
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;35;14;28 - 00;35;40;09
Speaker 1
And I kind of kept that to in the whole thing came up. I was quite anti taking meds. Also have a personal history of enjoying taking stimulants. Yeah I'll leave it at that. But like I can't dabble in stimulants even if they are under the medical label just for my own sanity. And so I was always a bit of a sort of like medication hater.

00;35;40;11 - 00;35;42;06
Speaker 2
Okay?

00;35;42;09 - 00;36;02;08
Speaker 1
And I used to worry my worry about ADHD medication that I didn't take and knew nothing about. Was that what would happen if people lost it? Would people to become dependent on it? Are you actually healing the underlying causes and issues, or is it just like a bandaid on a bullet hole?

00;36;02;10 - 00;36;02;25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;36;02;26 - 00;36;24;01
Speaker 1
And that was my view. And then I got dealt a horrendous blow that all women get dealt, which is perimenopause. Lost my mind have recently were a few months ago gone on HRT and it's changed my life. So I've had to go onto medication.

00;36;24;02 - 00;36;24;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;36;25;00 - 00;36;41;13
Speaker 1
And I thought about that same argument. Well they take the ADHD meds away. Is that person going to function or are they reliant? We take my heart away. I'm going to crash out. It has stabilized my mood, my libido. It's like the best thing ever.

00;36;41;14 - 00;36;42;04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;36;42;05 - 00;37;01;11
Speaker 1
So I've just kind of chilled out on my anti medication opinions. I just think if you found something that helps you and you've got a good medical provider, you do you like stay informed, know what you're doing. But you do you.

00;37;01;13 - 00;37;08;09
Speaker 2
Interesting. I have no real strong feelings on medication because I can't take any for my autism.

00;37;08;12 - 00;37;10;09
Speaker 1
I wonder if they'll ever come up with a.

00;37;10;14 - 00;37;14;25
Speaker 2
I don't I don't know, I don't think. Yeah, I'd.

00;37;14;27 - 00;37;30;20
Speaker 1
Would you take it if there is. Sorry. This is like we're going to end soon. Okay. But if there was a pill and it was like it will make you ADHD, makes you like more focused, it will make you more friendly and less direct. So you'll get on easier in social situations.

00;37;30;22 - 00;37;34;14
Speaker 2
I don't think so. I don't think I, I think I'm quite happy with who I am.

00;37;34;17 - 00;37;35;21
Speaker 1
I love that.

00;37;35;23 - 00;37;36;13
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;37;36;15 - 00;37;41;08
Speaker 1
The most controversial opinion you can ever have is just to love yourself. Well that's it.

00;37;41;08 - 00;37;44;12
Speaker 2
I think we've come through that fairly unscathed.

00;37;44;13 - 00;38;00;16
Speaker 1
If we made it through hot takes its 34 degrees in here, I need to go and get a glass of water. Thank you for listening to Hot Takes here at Late Bloomers. We understand that a lot of these were controversial. That was the point. Feel free to discuss and engage in the comments. We just ask not to get personal.

00;38;00;17 - 00;38;14;16
Speaker 1
Not to argue. Life's too short, guys, for that, isn't it? It is. If you liked it, like, follow, subscribe and we can't wait to see you next week. Woo!

00;38;14;19 - 00;38;16;21
Speaker 3
What were the good.

00;38;16;23 - 00;40;53;08
Speaker 1
So one of them's got to be a like. Like babe it's so hot. We're going to do a hot takes and you just be like yeah. And I'll start reading them out. Your face is horrified. You'll be like, babe, we are literally going to get.

00;40;53;10 - 00;41;17;11
Speaker 1
When you have ADHD or other types of neurodivergent, sometimes we can find ourselves being sensitive to sound that might look like being out for dinner and hearing what they're talking about on another table, rather than the person you're with. It might feel like going to a loud concert and feeling physical pain or discomfort because the music is too loud.

00;41;17;11 - 00;41;33;11
Speaker 1
It might just be not being able to sleep because there's a low hum in the room. That's what loop earplugs are for, and they have an ear plug for every single one of those types of experiences. Rich and I absolutely love them. We wear them every.

00;41;33;12 - 00;41;35;26
Speaker 2
Day, most days, mostly when I leave the house.

00;41;35;27 - 00;41;54;13
Speaker 1
Anytime you leave the house and we're wearing them, we are so lucky and honored that they are a sponsor of the Late Bloomers podcast, and all of our listeners get 20% off. You can go to the show. Notes that are linked in this episode ought to the link in our social media bios.