Simon Brown (00:02.339)
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Curious Advantage podcast. My name is Simon Brown and today I'm here with my co-author Garrick Jones. No Paul today, but we're delighted to be joined by Brandon Fleming. Hi Brandon.

Garrick Jones (00:13.185)
Hello.

Brandon Fleming (00:20.204)
Hey Simon, it's good to see you, brother.

Simon Brown (00:22.507)
Likewise, likewise.

So Brandon is an award-winning educator. he's an author, he's an entrepreneur and a transformational speaker, and he has an extraordinary life, which we are really excited to be hearing about today. And it's captured in the book Miss Educated. he was written off by parts of the education system. He went on to, though, to become one of the youngest educators, recruited as a debate coach at Harvard University. And he later founded the Veritas Schools.

His work focuses on unlocking hidden potential, building confidence and creating pathways for young people to thrive. His students have become seven times consecutive champions in the Harvard Debate Council Summer Workshops, and his work has been featured by Forbes, CNN and Good Morning America. And today Brandon helps leaders and organizations think differently about talent opportunity and human potential.

really looking forward to the conversation today Brandon maybe let's start where we always do with your thoughts on curiosity so what how would you think about curiosity and what role has it played in your life and your work over the years?

Brandon Fleming (01:39.533)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank first of all, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share. it's always great to connect with you all. I I would say, you know, the w when I think about curiosity, I I would define it as the relentless pursuit of nuanced engagement with the world. And the reason why I say, you know, nuanced engagement is because curiosity.

Curiosity is all about the details.

You know, and what I kind of think about is the ways in which people navigate the world when they are curious and the ways in which they navigate the world when they tend to be less curious. And what comes to mind for me, I I I think people tend to experience the world the same way they experience museums. And so if you've ever been to, you know, an art museum, you know, I recall being at the Louvre in Paris recently and and I noticed people navigate the museum.

Very differently. there there are some people who move about the museum in haste, just looking to to check off the fact that they've been there and to kind of glance. You know, when it comes to curiosity, there are those who glance and there are those who study.

Simon Brown (02:52.025)
Seen the Mona Lisa, I'm done. Yep, got my picture.

Brandon Fleming (03:01.698)
You know, there there are those who observe and then there are those who analyze. And and so you'll see people, you know, moving about casually, maybe having conversation. but then you'll see the minority of people really standing in front of a piece, analyzing all the nuances, analyzing all the details, asking the question why, asking the question how.

And the reason why is because there is a deep desire for understanding. And that's what curiosity is. it is the the desire to to understand the places and people that you experience throughout the world. and so that's how I look at curiosity. And honestly, it's something that tends to be, I think it's something we're all born with.

you know, when you think about childhood, what what is that pressing question that children always ask? They always want to know why. And and we have to ask ourselves, when does that stop? How how how does that tend to be stifled?

Simon Brown (04:01.336)
Yes.

Brandon Fleming (04:09.606)
sometimes it can be stifled by counterproductive or counterproductive parenting styles, where the question of why is not tolerated. and then sometimes it can be stifled by compulsory education, where in those spaces the questions of why are not tolerated as well, where they just want to focus on the what, they want to focus on the

information but but they don't encourage and and foster and cultivate that innate desire to truly understand the world in a very nuanced way. And so that's what I think about when when I think about curiosity.

Simon Brown (04:56.888)
I love it. And we'll come on to maybe how you're changing some of those ideas around school, what school looks like. But but first I would love for our listeners to understand your incredible sort of transformation journey. So it was sort of originally written off almost by parts of the education system, and you you changed to to be able to become an award-winning educator, author, and you know farm former Harvard debate coach. So tell us about your life, Brandon, and and you know how curiosity

Mm-hmm.

Brandon Fleming (05:30.649)
Yeah, thank you for asking that. You know, I I think there is an inextricable link between curiosity and exposure. And and that is that we can only dream to the extent that we've been exposed. And so when I think about my own journey, my my world was was relegated to a microcosm where I was exposed to

Violence, I was exposed to drugs, I was exposed to sports. And so everything that I was curious about was limited to to what was in my peripheral, you know, and and what was within my proximity. And and we tend to aspire within the scope of what we have access to.

And so for me, because I didn't have access to the world, I didn't dream of the world. I wasn't curious about the world and everything that it had to offer. I didn't know that the world was for me. You know, I thought where I came from and everything that I experienced in it is what was designed for me because that was what was in reach.

And what sparked curiosity for me is when I finally escaped from that world and saw that there was so much more available, so much more to enjoy and and embrace. but it wasn't until I I broke out of

that microcosm of just cycles and cycles of poverty and abuse and trauma until I was open to something different.

Garrick Jones (07:22.025)
It really lands with me when you talk about the relationship between curiosity and exposure and what young people are exposed to the context that they're exposed to the things as you were saying that they have permission or believe they have permission to access the world is made for them. It really touches me a lot. Your memoir, you called it miseducated. And why did you choose that word? And what does it mean to you? And what do you think?

Brandon Fleming (07:46.05)
Yeah.

Garrick Jones (07:51.892)
our society still misunderstands about talent and potential and young people, especially young people who don't fit the traditional mould for example.

Brandon Fleming (08:00.428)
Yeah, yeah. I called it miseducated. Notice I did not call it uneducated, because I think we are all educated by our circumstances. I think we are all educated by those who are responsible for teaching us whoever that teacher might be. And I was taught by people who were taught by

Other people who transfer trauma from generation to generation. And I believed what my circumstances and my environment said about who I was. I was very much educated, but I was educated in all the wrong things. And so that's why I call it miseducated, because the education that I received from the streets did not reveal the truth of who I was.

It only revealed the truth of my circumstances in that particular moment in time. And so growing up, you know, by the time I was 12 years old, you know, I had already been jumped into a game. By the time I was 14 years old, I was the neighborhood dope boy. You know, I was a kid who was on the corner selling drugs. I was selling drugs out of my lockers in school. I was selling drugs on the corners.

And honestly, my life was heading in a direction that would have landed me at best in prison or at worst dead. And I believed what the system said about who I was. The system called me inept. The system called me incapable. The system said that I had learning disabilities, that I belonged in alternative school. That's what they said about me, and I believed it. what they did not call me was gifted. I had never heard anyone refer to me.

Garrick Jones (09:33.366)
Mm.

Brandon Fleming (09:48.789)
as gifted until I had a teacher. after I dropped out of college and ended up going back to college some time ago, you know, or some time after. You know, I didn't know how I was going to survive in this world, you know, of college when I had the equivalent of a middle school education level. I couldn't read well, I couldn't write well.

I scored in the bottom percentile of the SAT and the ACT. The only reason why I got in the school is because the particular school that I went to had very forgiving academic standards. And it just so happened that when I was on the brink of dropping out again, flunking out again, there was one teacher in particular who looked beyond everything that the world said was a problem about me. And she's the only one who saw my potential.

And she was determined that if the system was not going to honor my gifts and what I had the potential to be, that she would do the work herself. And she met me on Saturdays and taught me how to read, taught me how to write. And as I'm sitting there learning and taking taking in the information, again, my abilities had not changed, but my environment had changed.

Garrick Jones (10:48.417)
That's amazing.

Garrick Jones (11:03.937)
Thanks

Brandon Fleming (11:04.502)
And and I'm consuming the information. you know, one day she looks at me, she says, Brandon, I've been teaching longer than you've been alive, and I've never seen a student consume this information at this rate. And she looked at me, she said, Do you understand how gifted you are? And and and I rejected it, you know, immediately. And I said, No, that that's that can't be true. She said, Well, what do you mean that can't be true? I said, I can't be gifted. And she's like, Well, why would you say something like that? And I said, Because I remember what they said about me.

Garrick Jones (11:32.865)
Mm.

Brandon Fleming (11:33.005)
You know, she said, listen, I don't care what they said about you. they miseducated you. You are gifted. and so that was the moment that changed my life forever. And I realized that she did for me on Saturdays what the school system could not do for me Monday through Friday. And she is the very reason why I decided that the solution that I was gonna offer to the plight of American education was a Saturday school.

Garrick Jones (12:03.219)
It's amazing. This is sadly not a story that you hear only out of the United States. hear it. We have the same problem in London where we have kids who are misdirected and kids who are falling through the gaps. We live in a large urban environment. But the same is true. Switzerland, where Simon lives, have similar problems and it's global. I mean, it's a problem wherever...

There we are urbanized. It's a problem wherever there is differences in society and it's something that has to be overcome. And the other thing that strikes me is it's amazing how many times all of us talk about the one teacher who made that difference in our lives. I mean, you hear that so many times that there is a teacher who saw something spotted something.

connected with us engaged with us. I mean I have one of course and and you just realize something changes because of their their attitude toward you would you say that that was the one thing that kind of turned it around for you because clearly you're incredibly successful you've made an incredible life for yourself and something changed

Brandon Fleming (13:17.438)
Absolutely. Absolutely. It was the one thing that changed my trajectory because it helped me discover the truth about who I was and and what I had the capability to do in this world and who I was called to be on this earth. I made the decision that what she did for me, I was going to pay forward for the rest of my life. because it's not just me.

Garrick Jones (13:29.409)
Thank you.

Garrick Jones (13:41.569)
Thank

Brandon Fleming (13:42.659)
That's about me. There are so many young people out there who are just like me, waiting for a teacher like that, who is willing to go above and beyond the call of duty, to meet them where they are, to go after them. You know, and so yes, it was the most one of the most catalytic moments in my life. And it's what helped me discover my calling to be an educator.

Simon Brown (14:05.238)
And and take us through, Brandon, what that looked like. So how how you took on that mantle to to pay it forward. and you had the Harvard Debate Council Diversity Project and then that became the or later the the the Veritas schools. So yeah, take take us through what what you've created off the back of that kindness, I guess, of one teacher.

Brandon Fleming (14:25.7)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, it began in college.

this journey of starting Saturday school started for me in college after that teacher transformed my life. And so I started teaching at Risk Youth while I was in college through Saturday school. that then led me to Atlanta, Georgia, where I started teaching at a private school. then I was recruited by Harvard University to become an assistant debate coach. And and there, you know, is a summer residential program.

Program where over 400 of the most gifted young scholars from over 25 countries worldwide to come to Harvard during the summer to study and compete in an international academic debate competition. And when I made it to Harvard, you know, I had a choice. Either I could be content, you know, that I made it to this point of success in my life, but I could not be content because I remembered my responsibility.

You know, I remembered my own journey. I remembered what someone had done for me in creating access to something that would change my life forever. And so I decided to do the same. And, you know, I thought about students back home in Atlanta who did not have the means to afford a private education, who did not have the means to afford summer programs at elite colleges, at Ivy League colleges. and so I decided to build a bridge. And I came up with an idea.

To start this pipeline program that would recruit students from Atlanta and feed them into the summer program on full scholarship. However, the university had a very, very understandable concern. They said, Brandon, how do you expect to take these kids from inner city Atlanta and bring them here to Harvard where kids are coming from? We're talking about the top debaters from China, top debaters from throughout Europe, top debaters from elite boarding schools.

Brandon Fleming (16:28.972)
All throughout America, like Phillips Exeter, Hotchkiss choke, the list goes on, where kids have had access to this kind of training for all their lives. I understood the concern and said, How do you expect them to be able to keep up? And I said, I'll do it. So I'm gonna spend the next year, every Saturday.

Teaching them philosophy, political science, sociology, psychology, debate, humanities, social sciences, rhetoric, all of those higher level academic disciplines that they don't have access to in their traditional school settings. I'm gonna take the Harvard curriculum and I'm gonna meet them where they are.

You know, just like a teacher once did for me. And and three hundred and sixty five days when they get to this campus next year, I will make sure that they are ready to compete against the rest of the world. and not only did that first group win, but but all seven cohorts that we've trained have won that competition at Harvard University.

Garrick Jones (17:12.097)
and we'll be back.

Garrick Jones (17:20.033)
you

Garrick Jones (17:30.304)
I have an aside. mean, it's amazing when you talk about the liberal arts and the basics, the psychology, the social sciences, the philosophy, the rhetoric, the kind of basis of education, which came out of, know, medieval ages teaching, you know, the Trivium and so on. But the we have a debate here in the UK at the moment about whether those subjects should be taught to students. There's one part of the debate that says

Yes, it provides an absolutely important backbone and foundation for all other education. And there's another debate that says, no, just go straight into the maths, just go straight into the sciences, just go straight into it and forget about all the kind of nice to haves. I think I am definitely on the side of we need a liberal arts platform for all of us because they give us the kind of tools that help us be better citizens. That's my belief.

Brandon Fleming (18:14.317)
Yeah.

Garrick Jones (18:26.933)
They teach us about, you know, getting on with other people. They teach us the basis of thinking, how to debate with other people and so on. But the thing that I also am really struck by listening to you is your approach to turning potential into performance, taking anybody from anywhere and saying where you come from is not a that's not the problem.

there are contextual and there are environmental issues that we need to look at and you take a really different approach to create pathways and expectations and support. Can you tell us a little bit more about what would you be your advice for anybody who's trying to work with a team to turn potential into performance?

Brandon Fleming (19:14.986)
Absolutely. You know, there there is a difference between being a good leader and a great leader. You know, a good leader can identify potential, but a great leader can manifest potential. They can do the work of pulling that potential out of you for everything that it's worth. And is that not what we're called to do?

As teachers and as leaders, we are called to bring the best out of people. Not just to identify people's potential, but to manifest the potential that people have. and I think that's what it's all about, you know. And and we have to be critical of ourselves. You know, whenever my students don't get something, the first person I blame is me. Yeah, I don't blame them.

You know, because I have the responsibility to connect with them in meaningful ways that allows the subject matter to make sense. And that then translates into performance. It's my responsibility to close that loop of understanding. and that's not necessarily the posture that every leader is in. You know, can I I'm working on a project right now.

And it's called Don't Blame the Seed.

And and what that's about, it draws on this this parable of an old gardener and a young gardener. And this young gardener is is zealous. And so the old gardener gifts him with a seed. And and this the old young gardener is so excited that he runs immediately to go plant this seed in his backyard. And every day he's stewing this seed, watering it, making sure it has the right shade, everything. But day after day after day after day, he recognizes.

Brandon Fleming (21:06.446)
Is that the seed does not grow. And so, filled with anger, he digs the seed back up, goes over to the old gardener and chastises him and says, Why would you give me a seed that is dead? And the old gardener looks at him and says, That seed is not dead. Don't blame the seed. It is possible to plant the right seed in the wrong soil, and it will never bear fruit.

How many times have we done that as leaders where it had nothing to do with the potential of the seed? It had everything to do with how conducive the conditions were. And if the condu if the conditions are not conducive for growth, that's what leads us to mislabel. That's what leads us to misunderstand. That's what leads us to miseducate. And so I would say we as leaders have to understand that we should never blame the seed.

that we should always look at the conditions and the environments that we are creating and ask ourselves, how are we being good stewards to make sure that these seeds actually reach their potential?

Simon Brown (22:18.336)
And tell us more, Brandon, on the on those conditions, on that environment that you're working to create with the Veritas School. So how how do you work what what does that look like if if someone knows a a young person that could benefit from the work that you do? yeah, tell tell us more about what you're doing.

Brandon Fleming (22:37.206)
Yeah. What it looks like is connection, which is at the heart of every business. You cannot reach people that you don't understand. That is the most fundamental. Any business that wants to be successful has to put the client, the customer at the center and find ways to connect the product, find ways to connect the service to the consumer.

Education tends to not reflect the customer because we don't look at children in that way. We don't look at families in that way. You know, we we don't see ourselves as having to come up with ideas and sell them. I tell teachers all the time, we don't even recognize that we are salesmen. We are in the business of selling some of the most difficult ideas known to man. English.

Science, social studies, math. Just like any company you name, we have to take an idea that you might not naturally care about. And our first job is to make you care. That is cultural competence. It's it's understanding the customer, understanding the stakeholder enough to meet them where they are.

At the end of the day, you know, every single one of us walking through this life, we are looking for connection, we are looking for belonging. when has anyone ever become passionate about something that is not personal? It doesn't happen. And so I tell teachers all the time: if if if you want to make your students passionate about your subject, you have to make your subject about your students.

Which means that English is secondary. For me, I teach politics, you know, but I don't want my kids to just hear politics. I want them to feel it. You know, I want to I had to figure out how do I make politics about them. You know, it it's the the reason why we struggle is because, you know, as leaders and teachers, is because we don't understand the difference between being disinterested and disengaged. We expect or we assume

Brandon Fleming (24:54.87)
That people are disinterested when they are not. See, it's easy to just write them off as being disinterested because then we can blame them. But in order to admit that they are not disinterested, they are disengaged. That means that it's our responsibility as the teacher, as the leader, to find creative and innovative ways to actually draw them in.

So that part is our responsibility. And that's usually the part that we don't want to admit to. And so that's what's different about the the Verita schools and the environment that we have created and that we foster that everything in the experience reflects who those students are at the core.

Simon Brown (25:37.901)
So, I mean we talk in the in the Curious Advantage book around curiosity as a as a driver for learning. it's it sounds like what you're doing is is in instigating or sort of trying to find a way to create that curiosity in your children through engaging them in these topics. That I love that that role of the the teacher as a salesperson essentially is how do I make this topic interest, how do I make it so that people are curious in it and and then the learning follows.

Brandon Fleming (26:04.864)
Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Brown (26:10.17)
how are you seeing the role of technology playing a part in the schools as you look at it? I mean it's it AI is having a a huge impact on education around the world. Are you are you seeing that as a way to to instigate to that, you that or to make things more interesting for your students? Are you building AI skills for your students? What what changes is that bringing about in your approach?

Brandon Fleming (26:33.15)
one hundred percent. You know, many people would say it's a gift and a curse. And I would say it it depends on how you choose to leverage it. like everything, even words, you know, what words can be wielded as weapons for war, or words can be used to to build people up.

Simon Brown (26:39.575)
Yeah.

Brandon Fleming (26:58.482)
words can be used to drive innovative ideas. So everything for that matter is a gift and a curse, depending on how you choose to embrace it and use it as a tool. And in our school, we are using it as a as a tool, as a gift to enhance learning. However, for us it's always secondary. So for instance, if you were to peek into a

Our classroom, you would see no technology. You had you would not see the kids with laptops, you would not see them with iPads, you would not see them with any resources outside of this right here, their minds. Because that's the first place, that's the first reference point that we want them to go to. That's the first source.

That we want them to draw from, which is why we teach philosophy before anything, because we have to teach the rudiments of logic. Because that as a foundation is what you will apply to any subject or any tool that you choose to use. And so if we teach them the foundations of logic, they won't have to rely so heavily on AI as a logical tool, but they will use it simply, for instance.

For evidence.

Garrick Jones (28:24.479)
makes me laugh slightly because my 15 year old godson is he does a philosophy class and it's really benefited him a lot he talks about it although he's declared himself to be a stoic because he was learning about stoicism and now everything is about an unemotional response and he's completely stoic we'll see how long this lasts but it's admirable to see him wrestling with with these

Brandon Fleming (28:37.31)
Yeah.

Brandon Fleming (28:46.618)
Yeah.

Garrick Jones (28:53.245)
ideas and putting them to practice in his life. He's a great kid actually and I enjoy chatting to him. How do you see curiosity linked to the learning that the young people you're working with are doing? And in particular, how do you relate curiosity to helping kids?

Brandon Fleming (28:55.982)
Yeah.

Garrick Jones (29:18.517)
be curious about what's beyond, you you talked about the bubble, you talked about the extent of what people were exposed to when they were younger. How do you see young people being curious to go beyond that and to challenge the narratives they may have inherited about who they are what's possible?

Brandon Fleming (29:37.091)
Yeah, absolutely. I you know, first and foremost, curiosity is about investigation. And that's a lot of times not what is conditioned in a compulsory school environment. investigation is a process, it's why academic subjects are called disciplines, be because disciplines require a process, and so

For us, we we make sure they understand the the importance of curiosity, the importance of investigation, which is rooted in questioning. You can't understand something that you don't question. And so we have a tenant at Veritas, one of our first tenets, is seek to understand before making an argument. Most people, I would argue, are conditioned to do the

The converse of that, you know, is, or the inverse of that rather, is is to make an argument before actually understanding a subject matter. And that is what why we see what we see in society today. And so we we teach them to push against that and we teach them to model what it really looks like to be curious first. because there's a certain intellectual humility that comes with curiosity.

It first acknowledges that I don't know everything. It then acknowledges that I am interested in learning more. And then it communicates that I recognize that I'm coming into this with assumptions and presuppositions and preconceived notions that I am open to correcting.

You know, and so that's what curiosity does for for all of us. and that's how it shows up in the classroom, but also how it shows up in life. And and we teach them how to take this approach when it comes to ideas of all forms.

Simon Brown (31:49.271)
You spend a lot of time round and with I guess our next generation of the workforce. So is there a question you think that more educators or or even sort of leaders and organizations should be asking around the neck around better understanding that that next generation?

Brandon Fleming (32:07.34)
Yes, I think we should ask ourselves, how curious are we about people? You know, we we have a tendency to be more curious about things and places than we are about people. But at the heart of every industry, at the heart of every service, at the heart of every society, it's people.

You know, often share, you know, I train a lot of Fortune 100 executives, and and I share one of the first things that I share with them is that I guarantee you that if I were to audit your business and truly analyze all of the issues that you have, I guarantee you it would not point back to a product issue. It would point back to a people issue. You know, we we live in a day where people understand.

Their products, where but they don't understand their people. In education, teachers understand their subjects, but they don't understand their students. And at the end of the day, we can only perform as well as we can serve people. And that's those who we serve with in a teammate capacity.

That's those who we serve in a customer and consumer capacity. And so our ability to understand people is what will allow us to build great businesses and it will allow us to build great societies and to ultimately build great people.

Garrick Jones (33:52.226)
That's amazing. Brandon, just to go off-piste for a moment, it's like I have a question. Beyond your current work and all of this that you're doing, what's something that you, Brandon, are genuinely curious about at the moment?

Brandon Fleming (34:05.39)
I think what I am most curious about right now is how to be the best father that I can be. You know, I have two little boys. One is getting ready to turn three years old and and the other is about to turn five months old. And at at this point I I am curious about what life after work looks like.

Garrick Jones (34:21.953)
Sweet.

Brandon Fleming (34:35.244)
You know, curious about what fulfillment looks like.

I'm I'm curious about at the end of all of this, spending all this time to build what I've built and what I am building. You know, right now Veritas is is scaling into two additional major markets in the United States. And it it's it's commandeering my time, you know, and I I just wonder what fulfillment looks like. for me now. I I wonder what it looks like

you know in in the future and and i just wonder right now what it looks like to be the best father that i can possibly be because there is no magical formula you know there there's there's no code to crack you know it it is it is truly a a journey and i want to develop to my potential on that journey

Yeah, I I don't want to be a better teacher and businessman than I am a father. And so that that is what is that's what I'm curious about right now in this moment.

Simon Brown (35:47.257)
I mean y y y you've role modelled that sort of continuous transformation learning curiosity from that very tough upbringing through you know education, through now business, through and through expansion and now into going into a father as well. How have you how have you kept your own curiosity alive through that? What's what's the secret of your curiosity?

Brandon Fleming (36:09.43)
I I'll be honest with you, Simon. I don't know if it's so much that I keep my curiosity alive. I think my curiosity keeps me alive. You know, I I I think it is literally how I move about the world because I understand that growth is in the details.

And if I want to be the best that I can possibly be, that does not happen apart from growth. And growth does not happen apart from curiosity. And so I think it's what drives me every single day. The relentless pursuit of better is rooted in curiosity. And so for me, it's it's what wakes me up every day.

grounded asking myself how how can I be the best possible version of myself? that in itself is a question which inherently makes it the root of curiosity.

Simon Brown (37:11.906)
So we're coming towards the end, Randall, I'm gonna do my best in a moment to summarise the the conversation we've had. but then to give you a moment to think, I'll then come back to you to ask maybe sort of from all the things we've talked about what what's one thing to to leave our listeners with as a takeaway. but we've I mean we've covered such a a wide array of things. So how you define curiosity as the relentless pursuit of of nuanced engagement with the world.

the the journey that you've had for that sort of unrelinquishing curiosity through how it's taken you on a a transformational journey from those teenage years of you know joining a gang at twelve years old, selling drugs out of your school locker at at fourteen, but then how one person's interest in actually showing the potential that you could have spending the time to invest in you, floating that

idea of you being actually gifted and and what that means I guess for for any teachers listening, knowing that one person can make such a difference to someone's life, I hope is is inspiring for for for anyone listening on that that difference that one person can can make. and how yeah how how you transformed your life off the back of that and I just love this notion of of now your desire to pay it forward. that you started teaching in college and

That led then to your working with Harvard, that summer residential school, and how you then created the bridge as you described it to be able to open up to take kids from inner city Atlanta.

And you achieved this phenomenal result of seven competition wins from these these kids that you worked with. And that's it's incredible that you were able to create that opportunity for people. and I'm sure they went on to to incredible things as a result of that impact that you had. You talked about the difference between a a good leader and a great leader and how a great leader can help really manifest that potential. I think there there's something there for us all to take away there.

Simon Brown (39:24.57)
And I think it was really insightful how you talked about you don't blame the students when they get something wrong. It's around how do we create the environment, how do we create the conditions? It's not the wrong seed, it's the it's the wrong soil, and though that we can all create that. And I guess anyone in a management or leadership position, there's a parallel there of you know, are we are we creating that?

that fruitful soil so that the seeds that we're responsible for can can grow and can bloom or or or not.

The way you think about the role of a teacher as a salesperson, around actually creating a way for people to become engaged in the subject, and it's not that they're disinterested, it's that they're disengaged, and that comes back on the on the the teacher or the person to how to engage them. The AI is both a gift and a curse, and super interesting that you you start off with that philosophy in the classroom with no technology to give

People the the the fundamentals of logic so they don't need to rely on technology. About how curiosity is about investigation, it's a process that that need for discipline. and yeah, we need to be able to question because we can't understand what we what we don't first question, and that tenet that you described to seek to understand before making an argument.

And then yeah, your your own curiosity and the the things that you're curious about as a as a father now, but also what's your life after work and the the fulfillment that it brings. So you you're an inspiration, Brandon, and yeah, would would love to hear what what you're gonna leave our listeners with. Yeah.

Garrick Jones (41:12.257)
Yeah.

Brandon Fleming (41:17.73)
Yeah, absolutely. If I could leave the listeners with one thing, it is to reflect on our collective responsibility. to look at what the universe what the universe has given us.

And ask ourselves, what do we have the responsibility to do with it? You know, one of the things that I share with my students all the time is that, you know, that there is nothing wrong with privilege. You know, sometimes people have the tendency to disparage privilege, but there's nothing wrong with privilege. It's all about what you choose to do with it. there's nothing wrong with power. It's all about how you choose to wield it. And so I honestly think that in a in a life

where you know it's so driven by achievement.

one of the things that I ask my students to reflect on all the time is I believe it is our responsibility, whether you come from poverty, whether you come from privilege. You know, we all have our own failures, we all have our own successes, we all have our own trials, and we all have our own triumphs. But I believe every single one of us has the responsibility to make somebody else's life better. and so I would invite listeners to reflect on how are we doing that?

every single day. How are you using your gifts, your talents, your resources to make somebody else's life better than it was the day before?

Garrick Jones (42:46.081)
Thank you.

Simon Brown (42:47.838)
Thank you for all that you've done to have that positive impact on the world and yeah you you're an inspiration for the rest of us as to you know what can we do to also take on that responsibility that that you described. So I think lots of reflection for our listeners of you know what can we do, however small, to to to make things a better place. Thank you, Brandon, for a great conversation.

Garrick Jones (43:12.715)
Thank you, Brandon. Appreciate it.

Brandon Fleming (43:13.942)
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. I truly appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Simon Brown (43:18.488)
Thank you. So you've been listening to a Curious Advantage podcast. This series is about how individuals and organisations use the power of curiosity to drive success in their lives and businesses, especially in the context of our new digital reality. And it brings together the latest understanding from neuroscience, anthropology, history, business, and behaviourism about curiosity and makes this useful for everyone. As always, we're curious to hear from you. If you think there was something useful or valuable from this conversation, please do write a review for the podcast on your preferred channel or do share it on.

Garrick Jones (43:18.687)
Thank

Simon Brown (43:48.452)
Social media so others can benefit from today's conversation. Curious Advantage book is available on Amazon worldwide. Audio your physical, digital, or audiobook copy now to further explore the Seven C's model for being more curious. And do sign up on our Curious Advantage website for the next book that will be coming soon of the Curious Imperative. We look forward to seeing you next time. Thank you.