Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Noah, who is an audio

producer for Pray As You Go. In this conversation,

he speaks about how his experience of suffering

and disappointment became the place where he found

God. From a non Christian upbringing to finding

faith at university, he reflects on how his

understanding of suff has shifted and what it

means to hold on to hope, both in the future and

present. So, Noah, what were your thoughts and

experiences of Christianity growing up?

Noah: Pretty limited. I'm the only Christian in my

family, so there isn't any Christianity or faith

in the household. and so really it was just. I

went to a C of E, Church of England primary

school, so we would sort of sing the songs in

assembly and, you know, around Easter and

Christmas we would, study bits of the Bible

associated with those times of year. but like, not

in a way that it felt like the teachers really

believed it. I guess it was more like a sort of

religious studies kind of approach of like, what

do Christians believe? so, yeah, I think the first

time I really encountered, like, living faith, in

a meaningful way was when I went to university.

Julia: So when you got to university, you said you met

people who were Christian and you became friends

with them. So how did those friendships at Oxford,

like, shape your thinking?

Noah: Like, from early doors, it was quite striking. so

I met, a very good friend of mine, Ross, in

freshers week, first week of uni, probably maybe

the second day. and in one of the first

conversations that we had together, he just asked

me what I believed and I was like, good, good

question, not sure. and so sort of told him I was

an atheist and asked him what he believed. And he

told me very clearly what he believed and how he

believed in Jesus and Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I

must have met people of faith before that, in my

life of Christian faith and other faiths. But it

was the first time having a conversation with

somebody where they were just really, really up

for talking about it and had real clarity of

thought about it, I guess. M. And so particularly

with him, but also other friends that I met early

doors at uni, having that kind of conversation

about what we believe about stuff and thinking

about life and the universe and all just kind of

became part of our normal conversation. You know,

on the way back from the pub or whatever, we would

just, have these kind of conversations which

really challenged me because I realised that my

sort of thinking behind being an atheist wasn't

really thought through. I just had grown up in a

household, without faith and so sort of had

inherited that, I suppose.

Julia: So how did you get from those conversations to

becoming Christian yourself?

Noah: It was over the course of like a couple of years

really, of having conversations with those friends

that turned into sort of sitting down and opening

the Bible with them and chatting through bits of

the Gospels and things. and yeah, they eventually

started inviting me to church services and that

kind of thing. and then I guess at the same time

in the background there was quite a lot of

difficult stuff going on in my family, quite a lot

of hurt there, around my father and things. So I

think that context was sending me looking for

answers as well in a way that maybe I hadn't gone

looking for answers before. and just trying to

make sense of all that stuff, whilst also trying

to understand, faith and, and Christianity. and

ultimately God, was very sort of kind. He, I

guess, sort of the issue of suffering was. Became

my biggest, block or something, I guess, like

sticking point in coming to faith. and my friends

invited me to this church service at St Ebbs

Church in Oxford, which is now my church, where

suffering and where is God in suffering was the

topic of the sermon. and so at some point in that

church service I came to faith. I can't exactly

pinpoint when, but I know at the start that I

wasn't at the end. I prayed the prayer, and wasn't

quite sure what happened, knew that something

massive had just happened. But, yeah, I didn't

actually tell anyone for a day or two because I

needed just to sort of process, like the bigness

of it, I guess, a little bit first.

Julia: So what do you remember from that sermon on

suffering?

Noah: The speaker really helpfully kind of explored

suffering by thinking about it first as if God

doesn't exist and then as if God does exist. And

so he was like a fairly academic sermon, and he

was kind of like if God doesn't exist but

suffering does, then either we have to rely on

humanity to sort of help us through suffering. And

kind of the trajectory of history is always things

improving and humanity relying on itself. And I

found that pretty easy to reject I think on a

large scale, but also just within my family and

the suffering that I'd seen caused by parents who

should of all humans be the ones that are ah,

accounted to suffering, to who's like we either

rely on humanity or, or we decide that nothing

really matters and we just kind of live our lives,

make the best of it and then we die and that's it.

And again, I guess based on my experience with the

difficult things going on in my family, it was

like stuff does matter, you know, I really care

about this stuff. Justice matters, suffering

matters. and even you know, as a musician, like

creativity matters, God's creation matters. and so

then he was like if suffering exists and God

exists, then like who is God? how can both of

those things be true? And, and he kind of opened

the Bible. And yeah, it was like my first glimpse

I guess of Jesus and how he engages with suffering

and walks towards those in suffering and walks

into suffering himself and cares so deeply about

it, but also has the power to do something about

it, which is not something I'd found anywhere

else. You know, like family and friends and things

have been incredible throughout periods of

suffering in life, but nobody has the power to, to

take away suffering. Right. And so to find a man

who can do that in Jesus, I think was the, was the

thing that really changed my thinking.

Julia: That for me has really struck me because I have

quite a few conversations with people who are

either atheist or agnostic and their argument

against God is the fact that there is suffering in

the world because they were like how can there be

a all powerful knowing God that allows the

suffering that happens to continue. Yeah, but

you've now just like blown that or that sermon

blown has blown that out of the water. It's going

to change how I answer that question in future to

people.

Noah: And it's just, I think one of the reasons that

that's like a difficult conversation to have is

that it's like, it's quite a humbling sort of

concept, I guess to flip it from relying on

humanity to get us out of suffering to saying

actually Humanity is the reason that we suffer,

and God is the one who can bring us back out of

it. which is the, I guess, the biblical storyline.

but, yeah, I think when you don't even think that

God exists, that's like, not what you want to

hear, right?

Julia: No, that's true. So how do you. Did seeing God

with you in the suffering that you experienced

change your perspective?

Noah: Yeah, it's interesting to think back to those

early days of being a Christian, compared to more

recent suffering that I've been through with

Jesus, I guess. But back then, I think it was

probably just a sense of hope, that I hadn't

really had before of kind of seeing through all of

the negative stuff towards the future. And. And,

you know, six months before coming to faith, I

sort of hit rock bottom, and I really couldn't see

the future, you know, in. In quite a literal

sense. And it was quite a dark place to be. And so

I think to suddenly have found what felt like the

answer, you know, of. Of, like, here. Here is

life. Here is somebody who can, like, overturn all

the hard stuff in life, but, like, is bringing

about a life that is so much better than we can

possibly imagine now. I probably didn't even

really understand that then, but I think I was

getting a little foretaste of it. after coming to

faith, I told a couple of really close friends who

at that point became even closer, because we had a

shared faith in Jesus and. And I hadn't really

told anybody else. And so for three or four weeks,

there was just this real sense of joy, in being

with them, in them telling me about Jesus, in us

talking about Jesus and, like, how do you pray?

And, like, which bit of the Bible shall I read

now? And, you know, all this, like, really basic

stuff, but it's just like. Yeah, looking back now,

I think it was like a little taste of the new

creation and being in fellowship with, like, God's

children. yeah, that's.

Julia: That. That's amazing that you had that joy.

Yeah, because I was also just thinking about how

quite often if you're in suffering, it can be

quite hard to find God. And do you have, like, any

thoughts on how people who may be currently

suffering, how they can go about finding God in

that?

Noah: Yeah, I was thinking about this. So the service in

which I became a Christian, was on Job, the book

of Job in the Bible. and Job, you know, more than

anyone goes through a lot. Well, not more than

anyone, but Job goes through a lot of suffering.

he loses his family and his livelihood and

everything he has, and gets to a really dark

place. And discovering Job, chapter three, as an

early Christian, was like, oh, if the Bible says

this, then. Then I know that it's not shying away

from the badness of stuff. You know, he. He gets

to a point where he's like, God, will you blot out

the day on which I was born from the calendar? You

know, it's like real dark stuff. and yeah, then he

goes through many, many long conversations with

his friends who are really super unhelpful. and

eventually God speaks to him, and it's amazing.

And God, basically, through a series of, like,

rhetorical questions, says to him, like, I am God,

and this is what I can do. This is who I am. and

that is the thing that signals the. A shift in

Job's attitude towards his suffering. it's not

anything that Job does. It's not like a how can I

be more righteous? Or, you know, what can I do to

bring about an end to my suffering? It's God

saying to him, like, I'm God. I'm so powerful, I,

like, made the whole universe. I can shackle the

devil. You know, can you do any of these things?

And it's like a reminder, of, like, who is God,

who is Job? And so I think, yeah, especially in

more recent times, thinking back over, you know,

some. Some tricky times, bereavements and things,

I think the things that have brought me the most

life in those times are things that have reminded

me who God is. So as a creative person, I guess

I'm really compelled by God's creativity. And so

going out and spending time in nature and record.

I do a lot of field recording, recording birdsong

and stuff and doing all that kind of thing. almost

feels like a prayer, I guess, because I'm. As I'm

focusing on what I'm recording, what I'm listening

to, I'm seeing God in his creation. I'm seeing his

creative hand at work. And it's reminding me,

like, God is the bringer of life. God is the one

that makes the spring happen every year and

sustains these new little chicks in the same way

that he's, like, sustaining me. so I think it's

like physical, embodied stuff like that that

reminds me of who God is. That is the most helpful

when things get hard.

Julia: I think you're saying about going into nature when

I'm, not necessarily suffering, but I feel because

I live in London, I Feel a bit overwhelmed by

everything. I was like, ah, I just need to get out

into nature. And once I'm in nature, I just kind

of remember how powerful God is and just remember

how much bigger the world is than just what I'm

experiencing at that time.

Noah: Yeah.

Julia: And that really helps me as well.

Noah: Yeah. There's something helpfully like belittling

about it, isn't there? It's like, I don't know if

I'm experiencing a massive thunderstorm or

something. It's like, wow, all this power that's

like completely out of human control. This is like

awe inspiring and makes me feel so small, but in a

really like reassuring way. I don't know.

Julia: I think it also reassures me because I feel small,

but I also know that God cares about.

Noah: Exactly, yeah. Yes. And that he's powerful to take

care of us. Right. It's like I feel small, but I'm

in the hands of somebody so big, so powerful and

so loving.

Julia: So that's kind of how.

How do you find hope? Is it. Is it that, Is it

finding it in nature or is there other ways that

you find hope?

Noah: I think that is the sort of thing that makes hope

feel real for right now. I really like thinking

about sort of Jesus second coming and the new

creation and trying, to imagine how great that's

all going to be. Even though it's impossible to

imagine how great that's going to be. But you

know, the people who are going to be there who

aren't here anymore and you know how God's sort of

creation in nature will be so much more perfected,

than it is now. so there's kind of that like

future hope that I guess comes like reasonably

easily to me, I guess. Yeah. What's more difficult

to imagine is making that hope real for right now

and like tomorrow, you know, when stuff feels

really hard and you know, the, the mind isn't in a

healthy place and it's like, how am I going to

like, get out of bed today or how am I going to go

and do this thing tomorrow that you know, is

making me feel really anxious or whatever? I think

it's then the physical and for me, like creative

stuff that makes God and hope and life feel more

real in the moment. so I guess often that'll be

music. Listening to or playing or writing music.

but also a couple years ago in a. Yeah, actually

in a really difficult time, I took up, wood

carving, whittling. and again, just like having

something really physical to really Focus on which

uses mind and body and creativity somehow makes

that hope feel alive. I guess, I guess maybe by,

as you just said about nature, like, bringing me

out of myself and out of the situation I find

myself in to, like, the birds that I'm hearing or

the thing that I'm carving or the music that I'm

playing or whatever. yeah, I think these are the

sorts of things that for me, like, make the hope

and the life feel real right now.

Julia: It's so true about the. Doing something practical

really, like, helps you change your perspective,

even short term. And I keep trying to have this

conversation with people about, like, sometimes

they just need to do something creative. And they

always like to me, but I'm not a creative person.

And I truly believe, like, everybody is a creative

person because we are created from the ultimate

creator, and therefore he has passed on that

creativity into all of us. But quite often the

issue is, and this is probably me going off topic,

so if you want to edit this out, that's fine. But

quite often the problem is we'll go into art

classes when we're, like, in school and be told,

you're not an artist, you're not good at that, and

therefore, like, people are just told not to,

like, they can't do creative stuff.

Noah: Yeah.

Julia: But I think you just got to find your outlet of

how to be creative. And how did you get into,

like, being a creative person?

Noah: I don't. Well, I don't really know. It never felt

like a decision, I guess. There was always a piano

around the house at home for as long as I can

remember. And for, as long as I can remember, I

was always just sort of messing around on it and

coming up with old tunes and things like that. so,

yeah, I guess music's always been just sort of the

thing that I would pursue, you know, when it came

time to make decisions at school and university

and career and stuff, it was always like, well,

this is. This is the thing that I do. I think. I

think what you were just saying about everybody

being creative, though, is so important. And I

think one of the issues is that we've come as a

sort of society, we've come to associate

creativity with, like, goodness or perfection. and

I think the times when I feel most free creatively

and the things that I find most helpful in times

of suffering are, the things I'm really bad at.

Right. So I took up wood carving. and, you know,

you try. I try and learn some sort of stuff like

technique and that kind of thing. But I'm not

trying to be a professional wood carver or even a

particularly good wood carver. I'm just doing it

because I love doing it and doing it makes me feel

good and see the life whenever I am struggling to.

similarly, I just took, up the clarinet a few

weeks ago. I've just had my third clarinet lesson

on Wednesday and I'm rubbish at it, right. Because

I'm on less than three. But it's so fun and it's

so life giving. And that has nothing to do with

how good the output is. And so I think, yeah,

often when people say they're not creative, maybe

what they mean is I'm not very good at, you know,

playing an instrument or, you know, painting,

whatever. It's like, that doesn't matter, you

know, like, do it, do it anyway if it gives you

life. and actually being creative can be like

reading a book and using your imagination or

listening to music and feeling something in

response to the music. Like all of these things

are still creative. There doesn't have to be a

tangible output and it doesn't have to be a

perfect output for it to be a creative thing. That

life giving.

Julia: I, I might be putting words into, your mouth here,

but like, I think when you say life giving, I find

when I'm being creative a really good way to

experience God as well.

Noah: Yeah.

Julia: And I know that like at my, A few weeks after my

wedding, someone who was there came up to me and

said, I'm an atheist, but I found the music at

your wedding really beautiful. And I had this

experience I've not had before. And to me I was

like, that's good. But obviously I didn't say that

to them because that's not what they were looking

for, but.

Noah: Right.

Julia: It's just being creative can actually help you

connect with God big time.

Noah: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think maybe a big part of

that as well is that it involves a slowing down of

your mind and body to be creative. and it requires

your focus and attention, in a way that lots of

things in life don't, permit, you know, don't

permit you to just focus on one thing for an

extended length of time. and that for me can be a

great lead into prayer, into talking to God,

because I guess that's what prayer is as well,

isn't it? It's like sitting down or not sitting

away. You have to sit down. it's like slowing down

and focusing on one thing, God and talking to him

and Giving him your. Your attention. And I think

somehow doing something creative, almost kind of

accident activates that feeling or that way of

thinking in my brain that then helps me to speak

to him.

Julia: So how do you feel that you're coming to faith has

better equipped you when you're going through

times of suffering?

Noah: It's a good question. I think that having somebody

to cry out to in suffering is really important.

see it lots in the Bible, in the Psalms, in Job,

and yeah, I've always been blessed with close

people in my life who I've been able to go through

suffering with. but to now have God who is always

there, you know, always listening, always present,

I guess can remove some of the sense of isolation

that comes with suffering often, I suppose. and it

definitely. Faith has also definitely changed my

view of suffering, I suppose. I guess linked to,

that sermon in which I came to faith and how

suffering was kind of framed in that. obviously

suffering is bad. And I want suffering to end, in

my life and everybody else's life. and one day it

will, which is great. but now, given that

suffering is a reality, I suppose there's maybe a

slight. There's m. In my mind, more of an emphasis

on, like, what am I learning? What can I gain from

this period of suffering? What is God teaching me

through this? in a way that before, I suppose it

may have been more like, how do I stop this? And

it's not to say that I'm no longer trying to stop

suffering from existing, but like, yeah, I think

another form of hope that I now see in suffering

is like, not just that this will end, but

actually, like, I can grow in this season of life.

And actually I can probably grow in this season of

life more than when things are great. I think

looking back over the last couple of years, it's

the times that have been really hard where I've

drawn closer to God, more than when things are

going well. So I think there's a sort of. There's

almost a fruit of suffering that I'm more able to

see now than I was before, which I guess also is a

source of hope.

Julia: I agree with what you just said about the. I find

it easier to find God when I'm going through

difficult times, when I'm like, going through

happier times or easier times. I, like, don't

forget God's existence, but I don't have that same

feeling that I need to make the same connections

in the way that I do when I'm Going through those

difficult times.

Noah: Yeah.

Julia: I was also just thinking about how my perspective

on what is suffering has changed over my lifetime.

Because in school I used to think 40 minutes of a

maths class was suffering. I don't know how I'm

going to get through this next 40 minutes. Yeah.

But as I've got older, obviously that is difficult

when you're 14 and you're struggling with maths,

etc. But my perspective on what is suffering has

massively changed and my world's got bigger as

well. So, like, at, 14, I didn't really understand

what was going on in the world. To understand my

experience then wasn't the whole, the whole world.

How do we be supportive to people who maybe think

what they're going through is suffering? But you

don't necessarily. You might have a different

perspective. I should say

Noah: I'm thinking of Jesus and how he interacts with

people in the Gospels when he was here on earth.

And it seems like his approach was always to be

there. You know, when people were experiencing

suffering or felt they were experiencing

suffering, he went and sat down next to them, sort

of, as it were. sometimes literally. I can't think

of a time where he said, like, I think you're all

right, really, or like, I don't think this is so

bad. And so, that, you know, he challenges people

on stuff big time. but when it's suffering, it

feels like his approach is to come alongside and

to be present with the person. So I think, yeah, I

think, I think that should be our approach too. I

think we should learn from him. And I'm quite a

big believer that, like, you know what, like what

Simon is going through might not seem as bad as

what Jessica is going through, but their lived

experience of those things as individual people

and their responses to those things are both very

real and valid, you know, and I think that

comparing suffering or difficulty of situations,

like, sometimes it gives helpful perspective, but

often, I think it's unhelpful. And I think it's

important for people's experience and their voice

in a situation to be heard and to feel heard. I

think that's what we see Jesus doing. I think

that's what we should be doing too.

Julia: So you mentioned that Jesus doesn't come to us and

say, like, get over it. And I really love that

idea of Jesus coming down and be like, you just

need to go for it, because I don't think he would.

and earlier you mentioned this idea of us growing

through, like, suffering and disappointment but if

I'm in the middle of growing or middle of

suffering and being. Or disappointment, I think I

just want to be like, but I don't want to grow.

That doesn't seem fair.

Noah: Yep.

Julia: And so when it doesn't feel fair, what do we do

with that?

Noah: Yeah, it's a good question and a good, good sort

of challenge to what I said before. And I guess,

yeah, a caveat is that, if and when I see growth

that comes from suffering, it's usually

retrospective. Right. It's not like I'm in the

moment going, yay, this is actually fine, because

I can see that I'm growing in trust in the Lord or

whatever. Like. Yeah, it's more of a sort of

reflective thing, I suppose. I think. Yeah. And.

And also one more caveat is that I don't think we

should always expect to, to see what God is trying

to achieve through suffering. Sometimes we go

through stuff and then we get out the other side

of it and we look back at it and it's still like.

I don't. Don't really know what the point of that

was. God, it seemed hard, and it's still hard. And

it's, you know, I don't seem to have gained very

much from it. If anything, I think going back to

Job, it's like seeing God for who God is. Seeking,

that in the midst of suffering rather than seeking

an explanation, I suppose, I think it's fine to

cry out to God and say, God, why is this

happening? I think that's a great prayer that we

don't pray enough, probably. But I think probably

where I found more life is the prayer that's like,

God, show me who you are, or, God, thank you for

who you are. I can't see why you're doing this

thing in my life, but I know that you're there and

I know that these things are true about you, that

you're faithful and loving and powerful and just.

And. Yeah, I think that's kind of what God does in

Job, in just reminding Job of who he is. And when

we do that, like, not only is it life giving in

the moment, but that in itself is an exercise in

trust, to say, God, I don't know why you're doing

this or why you're letting this happen in my life,

but I, I know some of who you are, and I'm going

to remind myself of this. Would you remind me of

this? speaking those truths to ourselves, having

others speaking those truths about God to us,

which may lead to growth in trust. Right. So,

like, I don't know, I don't want to seem fixated

on this idea of growth, but like, I think for me,

going through stuff, remembering who God is is the

most important thing rather than God. Why is this

happening? give me an answer. and. And sometimes

that in itself can lead to growing in the Lord, I

think.

Julia: So what do you wish you'd known earlier about

suffering and disappointment and how that fits

with faith?

Noah: We sort of touched on it a bit throughout the

conversation. I wish I'd known, ah, a few years

ago, how linked the mind and the body and the

spirit are and how looking after all of those

things is really important, particularly in

suffering. I think over the last few years, like

I've. It's sort of coming through it now, but

developed a fairly unhealthy relationship with

food and stopped eating for a little while and

stuff. and also had to deal with some anxiety and

panic attacks and things. And I think these things

have really highlighted how interconnected we are

as created beings, and how God has given us a body

and a brain and a spirit. And to suffer in one of

those three aspects of ourselves is to suffer in

all of them in many ways. and actually by, by

cherishing one of those things, we, we feed

ourselves as a whole being, you know, so if going

through a time of poor mental health and anxiety

and things, if I stop eating, that's only going to

make things worse. If I, you know, make myself eat

even when I don't really want to, that will. That

will feed my mind and my spiritual life as well.

and maybe this is most true of spiritual life,

right where it's. If we're suffering in. I found

if I'm suffering with physical health or mental

health, it's really easy to let the spiritual

stuff slip as well and stop praying and stop

seeking God, stop sort of, seeking fellowship with

his people. and everything gets worse when that

happens. So I think, yeah, I'm definitely still

learning this. but I wish that I'd known how

interconnected those things are and how they're

really great gifts from God that we should look

after and steward well.

Julia: And what are you grateful for?

Noah: I'm grateful for the first conversation I had with

my friend Ross where he asked me what I believed

and when I asked him what he believed and he told

me about his faith. the first. First time I really

felt like I was encountering somebody with a

genuine faith who wanted to tell me about it.

Because they were excited about it, but also

understand me and what I believed and they were

genuinely interested in me as a person. and yeah,

he's still a really great friend. And so it was

the beginning of lots of things. That first

conversation with Ross. So thanks, God. Thanks,

Ross.

Julia: Thank you for joining us, Noah.

Noah: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to be

here.

Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this conversation is going to stay with me

because of Noah's practical ways of finding God in

suffering and disappointment. It was a reminder to

go into nature and be creative. But also it's

going to stay with me because of Noah speaking

about how Jesus responds to us when we're

experiencing suffering. How about you? We'd love

to hear how Noah's story resonated with you. And

why not also tell us if you're facing an

experience you wish you knew how to look at

different. It might just be something we can help

with. You can find out more about this and other

themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for

listening. I hope you'll join me again next time

on Things I Wish I Knew.