Simon Dell (00:01)
so welcome to the next SIMO marketing podcast, the CIMO Fractional Marketing Podcast. my name is Simon Dell.

I am the CEO of SEMO. If this is your first time listening in and you don't know how to spell SEMO, it's C-E-M-O-H website SEMO.com. You can find out everything you need to know about us there. And if you want to connect with me, you can either do that through the website or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm not very complicated to find. There are a few other Simon Dells out there, but it should be fairly obvious which one is me. Now I'm

I'm doing this with barely any sleep today because as an idiot I got up at two o'clock this morning to watch England win their World Cup match, which will have been no interest to our guest whatsoever, who probably would have got up at two o'clock to watch England lose. so welcome to the show, Kirsty Dagnell. How are you?

Kirsty (00:56)
you

I'm very

well thanks Simon and I do support England when it comes to football because Wales never get in.

Simon Dell (01:08)
Well

yeah I which is a shame because you have one of the best one of the I think one of the best players who, you know, as in Gareth Bale having played for many, many years but who does doesn't play now. But anyway, a enough of the enough of the football talk. Kirsty, give us a a little bit of an overview about who you are, what you do, your experience. I often say to people, explain it like it's a one of those sort of two three minute movie trailers.

Kirsty (01:18)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (01:36)
You know, and and hopefully there's some explosions and some car chases in it as well. So

Kirsty (01:41)
Yeah, a few explosions over the time, but we won't go into those. So I'm Kirsty, Kirsty Dagnall. I'm the founder of Beyond the Brief. We're a challenger agency. So we provide fractional CMO services for myself, very strategy led. And then we use a team of freelancers and smaller agencies to develop. So what we do is offer an entry point for those businesses who can't quite afford big agency budgets,

want that big agency quality. I've been, obviously I'm not from Australia, but I've been living in Australia for the last 15 years. My background, I've been head of global marketing for a tech business, I've worked agency side, I've worked in finance and all across strategy, marketing and content, which is one of my favorite things to do. I'm based in Sydney now.

Simon Dell (02:36)
Okay, that's good. And whereabouts are you based now? Okay, cool.

Whereabouts in Sydney?

Kirsty (02:42)
in North Sydney.

Simon Dell (02:43)
Okay, all right, lovely. All right. okay, so when we sat down we were gonna talk about the the subject matter for today was this idea about building before you grow, which sounds like a very funky title. but so just for everyone's benefit, tell us what that means to you. What do you see the the core challenge behind that statement?

Kirsty (03:00)
Thank

Yeah,

so there's a few scenarios, right? A lot of businesses who either haven't done marketing before or they've done bits and pieces but they just haven't found it work for them.

Usually it's because there's nothing being put in place beforehand, a strategy to lead everything else. So often I see briefs come in and they say, we want digital ads, for example, or we want to do LinkedIn. And my first question is why, why do you want to do that? And a lot of people jump into the execution of marketing before they even think of that. Why? And that's where things fall down. They end up spending so much money on something that doesn't work. A lot of

people get burnt by agencies and I'm not saying it's the agency's issue. mean in Australia it's a very executional industry. I think the issue is the thinking isn't being done before the doing and without that you're kind of just spraying and praying and hoping for the best. What I've found is if someone does say we want to be on LinkedIn it's usually because say they're in the B2B space they think

Simon Dell (04:02)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Kirsty (04:23)
we must be on LinkedIn or like if they're in the B2C industry, we need to be on Instagram. But have you actually asked, are your audience there? Do they care about what you say? What are you gonna say to that audience? Is that thinking that should be done beforehand? That doesn't. And that's why a lot of businesses fail. So that's why it's really important to build. So build your strategy, build what you're saying, build who you're talking to before you even think

about growing and going out to market.

Simon Dell (04:55)
You must

have heard the the the the claim from many businesses that you know, marketing doesn't work or we've spent lots of money on on agencies and it didn't work. that that must be a that must be a that must be a a sentence that resonates and and and r repeats over and over for people you speak to, I guess.

Kirsty (05:18)
Yeah,

it really is. And agencies do get a bad rap. I mean, I'm not saying all agencies are great or all agencies are bad. Like there are some excellent ones out there and there are some dodgy ones out there. I think the issue is, again, the thinking hasn't been done. And that's why it stopped working.

Simon Dell (05:22)
And

Yeah. And I and I and look I mean I tend to find that agencies you know this is one of the points of difference from us as a business is that you know we approach everything with a a an agnostic approach. It's not you know, we're not selling a a particular solution. And I think agencies sometimes if you're a creative agency, you're approached by a company who wants something creative. And you're

Kirsty (06:03)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (06:06)
You're not diagnosing the actual problem. It's like somebody coming in. I often use the analogy like a mechanic coming in and you know, and you saying, you know, there's I think there's something wrong with my car. I think it's the radiator. Can you can you replace my radiator? And the mechanic might sit there and go, Well, it's it's not the radiator, it's your exhaust.

Kirsty (06:20)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Simon Dell (06:28)
And the client going, no, no, I d it's the it's the radiator I want you to replace. I think the problem is the r radiator. And and then, you know, the the mechanic replaces the radiator and then, you know, a week later they're back and saying, Well it's the car still not working. So it's that sort of, you know, it i th I think the danger and I call this about clients all the time, is the danger of self-diagnosis.

Kirsty (06:43)
Yes.

Hmm,

yeah.

Simon Dell (06:52)
If for some

unbeknownst reason, marketing seems to be something that businesses are absolutely happy to self-diagnose.

Kirsty (07:00)
yeah,

I think it's one of the only industries where everyone thinks they're a marketer. Everyone just thinks...

Simon Dell (07:05)
You y you don't you don't

self diagnose your car, you don't self no sif self diagnose your own health. But for some reason people were like, Yeah, look we're we're gonna self diagnose the problem with our marketing here.

Kirsty (07:11)
Yeah.

Yeah,

absolutely. And I think as well, especially for those businesses wanting to grow, they want quick wins, right? They want leads. They want things done straight away and growth creates pressure. That pressure creates urgency. And so the whole thinking behind it gets left behind because everyone's in mad rush to just get their name out there and they end up almost damaging their brand in the meantime.

Simon Dell (07:41)
Yeah, absolutely. So y you mentioned we we talked about the idea of there being sort of three pillars behind what what you do or what you're suggesting. those are sort of those are audience, product and industry. Why why those three? Because you know, there's been many people over the years who've talked about, you know, the core parts of marketing, but why do you think those three are so important?

Kirsty (07:48)
Mmm.

Mm.

yeah,

there are so many different marketing ways to go about it. The four P's, the seven P's. I think for me, after doing this for such a long time, it makes sense in a way that it gives you an entire perspective of the business. So if we start with audience, we want to know first off, who are we speaking to? Because that's going to determine what we write about, what our message is, where we actually place our marketing, for example.

So if we're, say we're writing for a B2B audience in tech, where are they gonna be? And the way I look at questions when it comes to audience is not just how old are they, where do they live, but go a bit deeper into what do they care about? What keeps them up at night? What goals do they have for the next five years? The way I do that before any project starts is get stakeholder interviews.

speaking upfront with the people who are dealing directly with your customers because they have the knowledge about the customers that you will never get from any online research. If you can get customer interviews as well, speak to your account team, hear from them about what's concerning your customers, what are the main issues or what do they love about your product or service. If you paint this picture, this persona of an audience you're speaking to, it makes it so much easier

to

understand what message you wanna relate back to them.

In terms of the next stage, what I want to do then is take from the audience to the business. So look at your business. Again, speak to people within the business. You need to be able to align your marketing with your overall commercial strategy. So we look at commercials, we look at what your business does, why you're different, why you're a standout. Then you actually look at, well, what has the business done to date in terms of what marketing has worked? What hasn't?

what emails are getting the most opens, what messages are actually landing. Because then you've got qualitative and quantitative data that back up the business proportion. The third thing, go on.

Simon Dell (10:25)
Yeah,

no, I was gonna ask I just want to ask you a question on that second one. Is one of the challenges that I often find with a lot of businesses is that you you made the point about what makes a business stand out, right? And

Kirsty (10:28)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (10:40)
I think that's again, that's one of those self-diagnosis things. It's one of those, you know, the business can go, this is why we're different. Do you find do you find a lot of do you find a lot of the people that you work with have a let's y let's use the right overinflated sense of why they're different perhaps in the marketplace?

Kirsty (11:02)
Yeah,

I mean...

Perhaps I think what I like to do and this kind of takes me to my third pillar, is the industry and what goes on around you. Well, it's always to get the internal perspective and just to segue to the third part, which is the industry. I bring it back to, okay, we know our audience. We know what our business is saying. Now let's have a look at what's going on around us. Let's look at what our competitors are saying. Let's look at.

Simon Dell (11:15)
Okay. Yeah.

Kirsty (11:34)
World events like how is the war affected businesses? How does that change? How you service your clients? What's happening in terms of government regulations? compliance needs like data privacy all of that and then when you get those three together you can start to bring in a Dissected version and go back to the business and say actually you think this from what I've heard from you your team and your customer

as well as what's going on around us. Here's where I actually think your business sits and here's where the value that you can give is. What is?

Simon Dell (12:15)
Everything you've everything you've said, a lot everything you've said there makes complete sense. It feels more of a holistic business approach than perhaps just a marketing approach. Do you think taking this approach is you need more than just marketing knowledge or you need more than just the marketing data?

D like do you do you often feel yourself strained beyond just the marketing part of their business?

Kirsty (12:48)
Yeah, you definitely...

Data, not necessarily data, but in terms of marketing knowledge, nothing too big. It's just common sense. It's thinking about ways, thinking about things in a way where you're like, how can I get more of a picture of this business that will directly impact our marketing in a positive way? It's more about knowledge gathering and doing it in a way that helps streamline that whole process to go to market.

Simon Dell (13:21)
I also just want to touch on there because I think my my my point there v is very much about

Finances and money affect these decisions that you're trying to make with the client? Because with all the will in the world and all the great data and the stakeholder interviews and all those kind of things, unless somebody in the business is willing to bankroll the decisions that you want to make, do you find some sometimes when you're going through this process that you are

banging your head, for want of a better expression, banging your head against a brick wall from a financial perspective, that there there there isn't there's a there's a let me just try and phrase this better. There's often a there's often a will to solve the marketing problem, but not necessarily a will to spend the money.

Kirsty (14:21)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's always going to be a challenge, right? The whole, think marketing, especially now has found it a lot more difficult to get that budget and drive that. But this system, this system of doing the audience, the business, the industry, it simplifies that whole piece. mean, strategy, I think it's seen as one of these exercises that takes a lot of time, a

of budget, a lot of back and forth, but it doesn't. I mean, we can get a strategy in place in, let's say, minimum two weeks. Like, it's not a long process. It's just taking the, it's taking a different approach. It's just thinking about ways, things in a different way. And when it comes to like the execution, so obviously once you've got the strategy, you have to pay for

Simon Dell (15:15)
Yeah.

Kirsty (15:21)
everything that comes after it. You don't have to do everything. You can do bits at a time. And that's what something I actually promote is piloting things. So you've got the strategy, you know where your origins are. You've got a pretty good hypothesis of what messaging will work, how it will work in market. Go start small and see if it works. That's the best way to do anything. If you chuck your money into like everything at once, like it's like throwing like 10 tennis balls at once.

You're only going to catch one, right? If you just focus and like you can scale from that and that's usually Where I kind of win on the finance side

Simon Dell (16:03)
Well an and obviously the finance is a a pressure point. one of the other pressure points that I was gonna say is often these companies are already watching their competitors do these things. You know, so there's this kind of idea if they if they're doing that we should be doing this and if they're doing it it must be right. Why why do we need the whole strategy thing if if we can see that they're succeeding,

Kirsty (16:06)
Mm.

Yeah.

Simon Dell (16:31)
So that's obviously a challenge 'cause I I find a lot of companies will look at other companies and just assume that because what the other company's doing it's the right thing to do. but that's not always the case, is it?

Kirsty (16:43)
yet.

No, not at all, not at all. And honestly, the amount of times I've heard someone say, well, they're doing it. Why aren't we doing it? Like, well, no, you don't do something just it's like that whole saying if so and so jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?

Simon Dell (17:04)
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's yeah. It's yeah, it it's but I I think I like the idea of what you said is that, you know, i i strategy doesn't necessarily need to take a long time. I think that's the thing that that pains a lot of people. They're like, I don't wanna get bogged down in three months worth of, you know, strategy and and all these kind of things. when you can start doing things

Not necessarily straight away, but start doing things with a bit of a bit of planning. so I I think we've we've kind of touched my next question, I think we've kind of touched on a little bit, but

Kirsty (17:37)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (17:45)
I was gonna talk about how that strategic input then translates into a a commercial marketing plan because well actually maybe maybe I haven't asked that question, but you know, y you you do your thing, you do your thing talking about your pillars, you know, and building before you grow. What's the once you've done that and once you've gone back to the client and said, Okay, here's what I recommend, what what's the next step from there for you?

Kirsty (18:11)
Yeah,

absolutely. for a lot of the businesses I work for, are sitting in, they're not the big brands who are already established. They haven't been around for years. They're not starting from scratch, they do, they're kind of starting from a later point than the bigger brands. So where I usually go after the strategy in place is always content. Like is your content reflective?

what we've discovered in market, if so great, if not, which is more often than not, then I do a little bit of a framework that basically acts as a playbook for all content and I make sure that that content is consistent from awareness to staff posts to internal documentation. It doesn't have to be anything too complicated, but it's just maintaining that cohesiveness across the business. And from there, we also take

Simon Dell (18:43)
Yeah.

Kirsty (19:11)
the audience understandings, we figure out exactly where they are, we look at the client's budget and we're like okay well if this is your budget for the next three months let's pilot this or this depending on the strategy and then we do a three month pilot. If something works you should always turn it to always on and that means it's always running, always running in the background because if it delivers you leads why wouldn't you? If it doesn't work stop, pivot, move on to something else that is always

strategy led.

Simon Dell (19:43)
Let's talk about

content. Let's go off that a little a sidebar for the minute. look, content is you know, i i it's the the cornerstone of most marketing these days. and and and and if I ask you this question it's it's a very open-ended question, but what do you what do you like from a content perspective? Because I I know everybody's tastes are different, but what do you what do you digest when it comes to to to content?

Kirsty (19:46)
Yeah.

I think the first piece is having an opinion on something.

Simon Dell (20:17)
Okay.

Kirsty (20:18)
You see a lot of generic stuff out there at the moment, especially with generative AI. mean, everyone's jumping on it. Of course it makes life easier for a lot of people, but there's a lot of stuff out there that doesn't have a point. I think you need to have an opinion in the market and you need to have a point. And then the second one is you need to be talking to your audience. It's very like simple in my mind, but I still see a lot of content on websites and collateral that's wee wee wee wee wee.

So what? one gives a shit. Like, talk to your audience. So I think those two, I love storytelling. I love it when a piece of content kind of takes you, it sets the context, it kind of gives you more information, things to consider, something that's actually useful.

Simon Dell (21:08)
Yeah. I

d I I like that idea of I I think I think opinion is opinion is something that AI can't do. And a and a an opinion based on experience is a nuance that AI just doesn't have. and I think of all of the content that I've shared over the years that's that's gone viral for want of a shitty word, it's always been where I've had an opinion about something. Largely a

Kirsty (21:16)
Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Simon Dell (21:37)
I

opinion that perhaps has two clear sides to it and lots of other people don't dis lots of other people disagree. do you think there's a danger that sometimes that you 'cause

Kirsty (21:47)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (21:56)
I I I always find that I'm very true to my sort of personal brand, which is generally an opinionated argumentative idiot.

Kirsty (22:04)
Well,

you're English, so...

Simon Dell (22:09)
Stop this stop this right now. otherwise I could say something very nasty about the Welsh. So anyway. but but no, I mean my my point is is that you c I'd have forgotten what my point was. Yeah, so but opinions can be opinions can be polarizing, right? And that there's a danger that perhaps if you've built up your business brand to be this

Kirsty (22:12)
I'm only joking, I'm only joking.

Opinions.

Yeah.

Simon Dell (22:39)
all encompassing supportive helpful brand, that you start suddenly having opinions on things, you know, and and pugrizing opinions on things that that could potentially be damaging for your brand. D how would you how would you navigate that?

Kirsty (22:57)
Well, I mean, it will come down to the audience piece as well. Like when you develop a persona, you can also go as deep. And if, if, if it is something that you want to do, if you know that you've got stakeholders in the business or your founders, a very opinionated person, you can have a look down to the values level and say, is our audience actually going to align with this? And there should be maybe a rule of thumb, like a green, amber red, like topics that you kind of categorize. And when you're doing it from a business perspective, maybe avoid the red ones.

Thanks.

Simon Dell (23:27)
Yeah, th

it's interesting. I have to avoid certain topics because

I I again through my experience and my personal lived experience I have a very

I feel drawn to defending defending men, right? This is

y this is a challenging area to be in is that I think a lot of men a lot of men do a very good job out there and I think in terms of being fathers and being whatever it is, right? and there is a a lot of people that will generally assume that men are a terrible people and all these kind of things. And sometimes when you go into a position where you're defend you know, and and especially when it comes to suicide rates and things like that, which is is ridiculously high when it for men, it's certain certain men of a certain age as well, it's a my age bracket.

Kirsty (23:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Simon Dell (24:24)
i it's very easy that defending men can seem like you're attacking women.

Kirsty (24:29)
Yeah,

yeah.

Simon Dell (24:31)
and so sometimes I think from a business perspective I have to make sure because my the bulk of the the bulk of the people that we work with, a lot of the contractors and marketing people are female. So we're a very female led business. But this can be the a challenge a lot for a lot of businesses is that if you take a positive stance in something in terms of an opinion that can often be taken as having a negative opinion of something else, it it

Kirsty (24:59)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (25:00)
It's quite a minefield, isn't it?

Kirsty (25:02)
It

is, it is. Like even, it's like a jumping on the bandwagon thing if you say something nice. And if you say something that people don't agree with, sometimes it's a lose-lose.

Simon Dell (25:08)
Yeah.

But I think the biggest danger is not doing something. And and I think that people go, well this could damage the brand and this could you know, all these kind of things. But the biggest problem is to sit there and be passive in the background while the world is moving on and you're not moving on with it.

Kirsty (25:17)
I agree.

Yeah,

exactly. And there are ways to do it in a way that isn't so public as well. Like...

In terms, I remember, I can't remember what it was. I think there was a mother's day issue. Cause now they're saying, you can't say mother's day because of people who might not have a mother and they need to consider things like that. And a company who, I think it was a health skincare brand. They actually, they didn't go out to market with anything, but they sent an email to their customers and it was very hard.

Simon Dell (25:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Kirsty (26:10)
it was very genuine and it didn't feel forced and I think because they didn't amplify that beyond their customer base it just made a whole lot made it a whole lot different and I think that's another thing again with the content it's like how you speak you speak with emotion you speak as a human in that way it's it's always gonna land with like if if depending but it will land if it's you know

Simon Dell (26:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. But also I I

don't think in this day and age if something doesn't land, if you make a mistake, I I don't think that's terminal in this

Kirsty (26:44)
No, no.

Simon Dell (26:45)
This

day and age, you know, there's you still see people getting cancelled through social media, but generally, I often say say some people, you know, make make a mistake and put their hand up and go, yeah, right, that was that was not smart, we could have done better. and and that cycle is often that people will forget that and move on. So look, so the last question I've got for you today is that if you're in

Kirsty (27:00)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (27:11)
I if someone's listening to this and they're and and the company is just, you know, chugging along, spending money on marketing and it might be working, it's not you know and and I think that's probably one of the things is that often people that have a marketing, they're doing things and it seems to be okay, but sometimes these these companies don't have any benchmark of what's good and what's bad. So what what do you suggest? Is it that they they just stop or that they just you know take stock of

Kirsty (27:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Dell (27:40)
of what they're doing and review it all or you know if if they're in that position some they're doing something, what what what do they do?

Kirsty (27:51)
I think don't stop if something seems to be working. Take stock definitely. I think it's all about time, right? And marketers are known for being this group of people who are like, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. Like you can find a day or two to spend on looking at your business, seeing what's actually working and what isn't driving leads. Attribution is a very hard thing to measure with a lot of businesses.

So finding out how where a sale came from can be very difficult, but as much as you can I think marketing there's always gonna be a little bit of unknown But if you use your common sense, you could do it. So I would take stock of what's working I would have a look at the industry seeing what your competitors are doing not to copy them But to like say I tell you use a good example, right? What I like to do is look at

competitors Google reviews and see what they're doing wrong and then see, okay, well if they're doing that wrong, maybe that's something that we can talk to, right? So it's just simple things like that. Maybe see what's going on in world. Read the news, read the fucking news and see, okay, well if this is happening here, how is it gonna affect our customers? Should we be talking about it more? Can our product help in a different way? It's just taking stock, as you mentioned.

Simon Dell (29:01)
Yeah.

Mm, mm.

Kirsty (29:20)
Just even just spend two days on it and put some notes down. Speak with your team, speak with your sales people, your key stakeholders, your senior leadership, and just kind of bring back some time in your today to take a step back and think, is this the best we could be doing? And if not, how can we make little changes to kind of move forward?

Simon Dell (29:45)
Couple of points there. I'm not gonna go into the attribution thing 'cause that's a whole nother podcast in itself. But there's a there's a lot of theory around

Kirsty (29:49)
yeah, we'll be here for hours.

Simon Dell (29:55)
you know, you'll never know what where where somebody bought from. So the thing is to create a a sort of holistic communication plan through lots of different channels and just focus on all of those because eventually if it's done well, people will contact you, you know. They may go into your website and then Instagram, then pick up the phone, all those kind of things. But there there was a I'm I'll get I maybe get a chance to talk about another podcast and I maybe I've already talked about it but the Virgin Virgin Air Airlines felt that they were in vet they were

Kirsty (30:08)
Mm. Yeah.

Simon Dell (30:25)
Invest in lots of different areas in order to grow the brand. They knew some of them they could see where they were actually getting results, but some of them they couldn't. But they didn't stop investing in those other areas because they saw it as a holistic approach rather than they overestimate they overinvested in the ones that they could see results in, but they didn't stop investing in the other ones, if that makes kind of sense.

Kirsty (30:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, perfect. And that's the way

it should be done.

Simon Dell (30:54)
The other interesting thing you said there about the the the Google reviews, I I saw this radical, read this radical thing. So radical. So it's pretty exaggerating that a little bit there, a little bit custom. but they were talking that when you go and look at a competitor's Google reviews, don't look at the ones where they're doing badly. Look at the ones that they're doing well and do that. Because if they're if they're successful in some areas, if the customers are coming to them because

Kirsty (31:16)
you

Simon Dell (31:24)
the service is brilliant because the product is brilliant or whatever. That's what you should be paying attention to, not the negative ones that you're getting, that the cut that that your competitor is getting. Because essentially for you to beat your competitor, you need to be better at the stuff that they're doing well rather than capitalise on the stuff they're doing badly. Does that make sense?

Kirsty (31:36)
Yeah.

It absolutely

does. And it ties back to why marketing should not be like a silo department. Marketing should be taking those insights to their product teams. So then the product teams or their customer service teams, like that's the whole point of the strategy is like you get this not just marketing, but an overall view of your business that can help your marketing. Yes, but help you grow as a business.

Simon Dell (31:54)
Mm.

Look, thank you for your time today. Final comments, final sixty seconds of you know, cursy insight or cursy wisdom, whatever or Welsh Welsh wisdom. What's which we call it? The Welsh Welsh wisdom.

Kirsty (32:26)
Well, the Welsh

wisdom. Look, I think we've covered a lot. I would just say spending the time upfront might seem like a big task, but it's much better and more efficient to do it upfront than end up spending a year wasting money on the wrong things.

Simon Dell (32:46)
Brilliant. And if anybody wants to reach out to you, obviously they can find you on LinkedIn. I don't imagine there's that many Kirsty Dagnals out there. but where else can they find you?

Kirsty (32:58)
LinkedIn

beyondthebrief.au is my website. But yeah, always on LinkedIn.

Simon Dell (33:03)
Awesome. All right. Thank you very much for that today. and good good luck with and good luck with the the business.

Kirsty (33:12)
Thank you, thanks so much Simon.