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Speaker 1
Who has got more empathy? Someone with ADHD or someone with autism? Most of us think that we already know the answer, but what if we've been getting it completely wrong?

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Speaker 2
Welcome to late bloomers, where we are getting our lives together.

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Speaker 1
Eventually brought to you by our amazing sponsor, Loop Ear plugs.

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Speaker 2
Right. Empathy.

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Speaker 1
Do you know why we're doing an empathy episode?

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Speaker 2
Like when you said it, I was like, oh, this is going to be a two minute episode. Why? Won't be like, well, rocks is more empathetic than me. That's in my head. That's what.

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Speaker 1
I love it. So maybe by the end of the episode you might think differently. So first of all, I think it would be useful for all of us if we could actually define what empathy is. It's a word that we hear a lot. Was it actually mean? What does it mean to you when you hear empathy? And then I'm going to like read you a definition.

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Speaker 2
Well, I do get confused between empathy and sympathy. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't really know the difference of the two. I don't think so.

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Speaker 1
I think that's really common. So really, simply feeling sympathy is like you feel sorry that they're going through it. Yeah. Oh that's your bad that's happening. And oh dear that must be tough. Feeling empathy is feeling it with experiencing with that person. Being with that person. Holding it with them.

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Speaker 2
Right.

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Speaker 1
Just do you see that? There's a slight difference.

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Speaker 2
Yeah I do.

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Speaker 1
Okay. So there's three types of empathy right. And we're just going to quickly cover them up.

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Speaker 2
Okay.

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Speaker 1
So emotional empathy sort of what I was just speaking about feeling it with someone. Someone starts to cry. Your crying someone's feeling grief. You're feeling it with them. Like you're in the emotions with them and it's feelings based. Then we've got cognitive empathy, which is understanding what and why someone is feeling upset or going through something difficult. And it's thoughts based empathy, right?

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Speaker 2
So understanding logically what they're going through.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. And then there's compassionate empathy which is actually wanting to help understanding you can't fix the problem or the feelings but wanting to take action and help.

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Speaker 2
Okay.

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Speaker 1
So three types of empathy. Who knew?

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Speaker 2
I didn't.

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Speaker 1
I didn't.

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Speaker 2
I barely knew what empathy meant.

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Speaker 1
So that's why we're doing an excellent that.

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Speaker 2
Since you've just explained the three, though, I think the tide might be turning about who's more empathetic just off the top of my head. Like we'll go through the episode.

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Speaker 1
No, I want to hear. Come on.

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Speaker 2
But when you say it, the first one, I'm not very good at feeling it with them.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 2
But understanding what they're going through and wanting to support. I think I'm really good at.

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Speaker 1
Yep. And actually compassionate, like taking action.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
That's what I.

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Speaker 2
Mean to help. That was the third one. Yeah.

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Speaker 1
So yeah. So this is basically my theory. Okay.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
That typically we see ADHD as a super high empathy. Yeah. And there's a myth about autistic people that they're not empathetic. But I'm saying I don't think ADHD is is as empathetic as they think they are.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
And I think autistic people have got access to way more empathy than we give them.

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Speaker 2
I think I agree with you. I think I'm going to I don't know how we're going to do this, but I will score low on the first one. That's okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 1
I think.

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Speaker 2
Whatever that one was called.

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Speaker 1
Emotionally empty. Okay. So we're going to break this up now and we're going to talk about ADHD and empathy. Yeah. And what that looks like. Of course I'm going to use me as a reference point. There are loads of different types of ADHD. Loads of people experience it differently. It's just I'm here. So that's what you're getting.

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Speaker 1
Then we're going to talk about you for an autistic lens. Yeah. Why you might struggle and actually where you do really well. And we'll see how we feel.

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Speaker 2
So do it. I'm excited.

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Speaker 1
Let's do it. ADHD, empathy. Now, when we did a tour a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
We asked people some things they thought were good about themselves. Yeah. It was mainly ADHD audience. And what we had back was creative.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
And empathetic.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. Empathy was high up there.

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Speaker 1
High up in the charts. And for me personally. I mean, you've described me as super empathetic. Way nicer than you.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. You describe you as empathetic as well.

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Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I'm coming to poke that a bit with my name.

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Speaker 2
That's how you lost your nail.

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Speaker 1
Lost my nail? Can you understand logically why that would be upsetting?

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Speaker 2
Yes, but you're booked in at 4:00, so.

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Speaker 1
To get my now done, I am. Yeah. Are you feeling it with me?

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Speaker 2
No.

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Speaker 1
So I think ADHD people do have access to a lot of emotional empathy. ADHD is often very sensitive. Yeah. And sensitivity is a key part of feeling what somebody is feeling. However, there's almost an excess of empathy which can lead us into a sort of emotional overwhelm rather than empathy. And if you break it down to the most like simple way of explaining this, can I sometimes care so much that I actually stop being useful?

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Speaker 2
100%. Oh, so I was thinking that as you were describing it.

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Speaker 1
I love how there was like, no, there's no thought. Yeah, 100%.

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Speaker 2
No, but you don't like if you you there is no question that you will feel if someone's experiencing pain, you will feel that really, really deeply. But if you wanted support, if you wanted to help that person, I'm not sure you're often the best person to do it because you're just in the emotion with them.

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Speaker 1
And sometimes overwhelmed by it, wanting to help do anything. And that can. Sometimes my emotions end up becoming more important than the person who I'm claiming I'm feeling empathy for.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
And obviously it can be so overwhelming if you see someone crying and then you're crying watching movies and like, having a panic attack, or I walk past a shop that says it's going out of business and I'm.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Feeling horrendous. Like, I don't know if that is true empathy.

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Speaker 2
It also can lead you to if you want to help or support, it can lead you to like irrational like solutions that that shop example, you'll want to go and buy everything in the shop which isn't.

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Speaker 1
No.

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Speaker 2
You know what I mean.

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Speaker 1
No, no.

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Speaker 2
It's too much.

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Speaker 1
You know, it's what is empathy? What is people pleasing, what might be a little touch of the Savior complex. And I don't want to be an aid hater because I love it and I have it. And and I've learned to love myself over the last few years. But it is important that we sort of look at it and kind of call into question where our empathy might be hurting us, and where it might be doing a disservice to others.

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Speaker 1
There's also something would emotional contagion, which, due to the sensitivity of ADHD, is often comes up. And that's where someone else is feeling an emotion and you feel it too. It's like an echo. It's like contagious. But we feel as empathy. But sometimes it's not a positive thing.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. Like what? Like why?

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Speaker 1
Almost like someone else's mood or behavior could have a much bigger impact on us. Yeah. A sort of lack of boundaries. It's almost like a negative empathy. So if somebody was angry, you immediately kind of feel that and take it on and that that's not particular. You don't want to be like empathetic necessarily to that angry person. You probably want to go into the other room.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, you become less level headed, I suppose, don't you? And running on pure emotion.

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Speaker 1
Running a pure emotion. There's also a sense of feeling responsible for other people's emotional experiences. So if somebody is angry, you think it's your fault and you think it's you that needs to fix it. If you walk past a shot that's going out of business, you think that you have to go in and change that in in some way.

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Speaker 1
It's an over responsibility in other people's lives, which probably comes from childhood dynamic.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. Interesting.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. Isn't it like.

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Speaker 2
It's very, very. Yeah, it's a bit. It's a bit complicated for me so far.

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Speaker 1
Oh.

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Speaker 2
Is it. No it's fine. I'm getting I'm getting it.

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Speaker 1
So it's basically all the reasons why empathy can actually be difficult for people with ADHD.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Sometimes we just say HHC people were really empathetic, but we can be hurting ourselves.

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Speaker 2
Well, I think we're oversimplifying what empathy is by the sounds of it as well.

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Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Big time. Then there's also emotional burnout. If you're constantly putting other people first, wanting to fix, wanting to have deep conversations, you will burn out.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. And that happens to you.

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Speaker 1
Like not recently. Yeah. I think I've got way better. But historically, yeah. You're just getting these burnout cycles of trying to help, trying to show people that they love, trying to be empathetic. And you were only human being got so much gas in the tank.

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Speaker 2
And I don't know whether it's a people pleaser thing, but historically, you've been so empathetic that you sacrifice your own needs. Like you'll go and do anything, be anywhere, be everything to everyone. And it's like, you don't do this now. But that's probably not. That's not conducive because that can build resentment and all sorts of I don't know whether that's empathy or just people pleaser though.

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Speaker 1
It's probably to people pleaser wanting to be seen as helpful and nice. And yeah, it's a really interesting little pie and everyone's going to have their own view of this. I also know, by the way, it's so hard to look at yourself in a negative way.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
For ADHD you've had people doing that your whole life. So I really don't want to come across in that way. It's for us so we can protect ourselves and show up better in our relationships and just keep one eye on. Is this empathy? Is the other people. Is the other person feeling empathy, or am I, like, emotionally overwhelmed and.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
And reacting. Okay, so that's a little wonky. Look at ADHD empathy. Now we're going to talk about autism okay. And the sort of like myth that autistic people don't feel. Empathy is quite prevalent. Like that's quite common in society. In fact you probably.

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Speaker 2
I would have I would have agreed probably I would have been like knowing what it is and like feeling the same emotions as someone. I don't think that I do feel the same emotions, but that's just the the emotional part of it. The others, I think I am pretty good.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. So let's talk about why society may have judged autistic people as not being empathetic. So first up is missing emotional cues.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
This is something you do struggle with. Yeah. And I never used to understand. Now I fully do.

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Speaker 2
But if I see someone crying. What do you mean? Missing emotional cues?

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Speaker 1
So, say, if someone was kind of upset and they were lump shoulders and sort of head down, you might not pick up that. They were feeling really sad. It needs to be quite an obvious. Yeah input signal. Yeah. In fact better than an input signal is being told.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, obviously.

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Speaker 1
I am really sad. Oh like then immediately you change.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Behavior. And yeah, just kind of, I guess needing to be told. Needing somebody inside world to be verbalized and explained because whatever those subtle emotional cues or understandings are, that can be a struggle.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Like how how do you find that if someone's upset?

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Speaker 2
What? I'm not saying anything. Yeah. Tough. Because if I don't know what's wrong with them, I don't know whether it's upset. I don't know whether they're genuinely upset, whether they're just disengaged, whether they're fed up with their board. I don't know how they're feeling unless they unless they tell me like I would, unless it's overtly obvious, like they are crying.

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Speaker 2
Then I would pick it up, obviously. Yeah, but if it's micro behaviors and stuff, I don't know. I, I wouldn't know how to interpret what emotion that is. Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. There's also the need the processing time. So there's this you know, you think of empathy. Somebody feel something. You feel it. So you have a cuddle. And that's empathy. That's not how it works for you. If someone was going through something really deep, you might need time to sit with that and think through what it is and why it might be upsetting them so you can understand it logically.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. So a good a good comparison. If someone says, oh, they've lost a relative, but I don't need processing time for that, I'm like, oh, that's sad. I'm sure you're really sad about that. I think where I would really need to understand has been loads of people I've known in my life that are like really sad after maybe a relationship ending, but they're the ones that ended the relationship.

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Speaker 2
So I'm like, I need a bit of I need to understand this a little bit more, because what? Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying they shouldn't feel sad, but I'm like that. That needs some computing in my brain around, well, why? Why end it then? Oh, it's more complicated than that. Why is it. What do you what you mean, why is is it not a sense of relief that you've ended it like it must have been?

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Speaker 2
I don't always understand that without processing time.

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Speaker 1
That's the, like the perfect example. If you can easily logically understand why there is sad, you can do kind of empathetic things.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
If you can't understand why someone said the first thing would be questions and sort of digging and trying to understand.

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Speaker 2
Isn't always the best thing to do, right?

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Speaker 1
If someone's well, that's probably it's really interesting, isn't it? Because in that moment that's probably not experienced as like empathetic, but you are trying to get to.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Cognitive empathy. You're trying to get yourself to think so you can understand so he can act in the right way.

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Speaker 2
100%. It's not like I want to challenge you. Like you shouldn't feel upset because you've ended the relationship. It's like, oh, I can obviously see your sad. I don't currently understand why. Let me, let me try and figure that out and then I'll be there for you.

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Speaker 1
I it's so good. That is just the nail on the head. Because in that moment, let's say it was me and you and let's go pre neurodivergent knowledge.

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Speaker 1
That could land as like, babe I'm crying. I need a cuddle and reassurance. I don't need questions about the validity of my emotions.

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Speaker 2
Yeah I.

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Speaker 1
Hear that now. It would land so different because if you were like oh, what's happened? What? I know that you're just trying to put the maths together so you can fully understand why I'm sad. So you can help me.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
But but that knowledge and that could ruin a relationship.

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Speaker 2
Well, I can't remember the topic. Maybe you will. It wasn't that long ago we had a little row and you were like, all I want is a hug. But like, because it was a bit of conflict and I didn't agree that I was like, well, I don't want to hug you because I can't remember. What do you know?

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Speaker 2
Do you remember that phrase.

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Speaker 1
Few weeks ago?

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:18:21:17 - 00:18:35:12
Speaker 1
It was something to do with work. I can't remember the thing. It might pop into my head randomly at 3 a.m. tonight, and it was something to do with work, and I was overwhelmed and stressed and upset.

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Speaker 2
Oh, I was trying to help you.

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Speaker 1
And you were like, trying to help me with, like, do this, do that. And that was making me more panicked. And I said, I don't need advice, I just need a cuddle. And and that upset you. And we had a little. So there you go.

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Speaker 2
Well, because I was like, well, a cuddle isn't going to solve this. Like you're stressed about these things. Let me help you do them and then you won't be stressed anymore. No, I don't need your solution. I was like, no, that's literally what you need.

00:19:03:09 - 00:19:07:21
Speaker 1
I know, I know, but like, it's so difficult in that moment because I was.

00:19:07:22 - 00:19:08:14
Speaker 2
I'm not saying I'm.

00:19:08:14 - 00:19:19:19
Speaker 1
Right, but no, no, I'm not saying I'm right. I needed it all. I needed a cuddle and calm down because actually I was emotionally overwhelmed. So I needed to get back in the room. Then I'm ready for solution.

00:19:19:21 - 00:19:21:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

00:19:21:01 - 00:19:26:19
Speaker 1
But yeah, it's just it's so funny how we can talk about this every week shows up.

00:19:26:20 - 00:19:45:24
Speaker 2
What's really fascinating there though, is you obviously at the moment you were like, I don't want a solution. I just want a cuddle. And I'm like, that's wrong because you need the solution. But, but, but if it was framed in a way of I know that needs sorting out, babe, but I haven't, I can't do it at the moment.

00:19:46:01 - 00:19:50:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. Can I just can we just have a cuddle and I need to calm down and I'd be like, oh, that makes loads of sense.

00:19:50:23 - 00:19:57:22
Speaker 1
But I think I was like, pissed off with you that you were trying to hammer me with logical points when I was like, that.

00:19:57:22 - 00:20:05:13
Speaker 2
Fight was. I was like, how can you be so angry with me for trying help? I couldn't, I couldn't work out.

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:06:20
Speaker 1
You couldn't understand.

00:20:07:01 - 00:20:12:22
Speaker 2
Like, I might as well just do nothing and you wouldn't be annoyed with me. But I'm trying to help. And. Yeah.

00:20:12:24 - 00:20:36:21
Speaker 1
So that is you trying to get cognitive empathy and then compassionate empathy to help. But I needed the emotional. I think that's helpful. Right. If you're in a relationship, maybe those words are like a bit too complicated, but like, do you want me to just listen and cuddle or do you want help, practical help? And you sort of tell them which one?

00:20:36:21 - 00:20:40:17
Speaker 1
And that would really help. Yeah. The partner.

00:20:40:19 - 00:20:41:20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:20:41:22 - 00:21:09:24
Speaker 1
Okay. But then so we know that you can struggle with picking up cues or your own facial expression or needing processing time having to understand. So you're not like in it, you're not in the wave of someone else's emotion in the same way I would be. It doesn't work like that. And actually, the whole reason we're doing this episode was because of something that happened yesterday.

00:21:10:01 - 00:21:15:19
Speaker 1
And a friend of yours was kind of going through quite a tough time.

00:21:15:20 - 00:21:16:23
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:21:17:00 - 00:21:31:19
Speaker 1
And we were talking about it and just how to help and how and how this person is doing. And I just noticed this a really different reaction. Like I was almost feeling sadness.

00:21:31:24 - 00:21:33:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. I wasn't sad.

00:21:33:23 - 00:21:50:04
Speaker 1
And you weren't sad. And I was like, but you obviously but you really care. You wanted to help. You're coming up with practical solutions. And it just blew my mind because I was like, you care about this person so much and it's so obvious and you really want to help. But you weren't sad.

00:21:50:05 - 00:21:50:21
Speaker 2
No.

00:21:51:01 - 00:21:51:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:21:51:17 - 00:21:52:22
Speaker 2
No. It's all.

00:21:52:24 - 00:22:05:00
Speaker 1
I love it, like, because I love how much empathy you do have in a different way. When the person is autistic, you're going to get a different type of empathy.

00:22:05:04 - 00:22:21:13
Speaker 2
I really like that framing actually, rather than autistic people are bad at empathy because I can see exactly what you just said. I really, really care about this person that was trying to help yesterday, but my sad. No, of course not. It's not me. No, of course not. I don't want to be.

00:22:21:19 - 00:22:35:04
Speaker 1
Yes, almost like this. Extreme boundaries where someone else's emotions does not penetrate or affect your feelings? No, but your mind and your action. It really does.

00:22:35:05 - 00:22:35:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:22:35:19 - 00:22:50:16
Speaker 1
And actually, I think when you understand what's happened or what someone's going through, you can have an enormous empathy and be incredibly kind.

00:22:50:18 - 00:23:18:15
Speaker 2
What is interesting, which is probably a completely different it's probably not even a podcast. It's probably a conversation between me and a therapist. Is is only with adults for me. So if a kid's struggling or upset or left out or lonely, I really do emotionally feel that. But that's it. No adult human. I would feel their sadness or emotions, but I do with a kid.

00:23:18:21 - 00:23:22:11
Speaker 1
That's so your kids or orchids?

00:23:22:12 - 00:23:27:11
Speaker 2
Okay, it could be a kid on the TV that I don't know. It could be fictitious emotion.

00:23:27:17 - 00:23:31:14
Speaker 1
To get upset if kids are hurt.

00:23:31:16 - 00:23:40:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's. And that's another day. That's probably a trauma response or something rather than a kid empathy.

00:23:40:08 - 00:23:41:08
Speaker 1
Let us know.

00:23:41:09 - 00:23:42:23
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:23:43:00 - 00:23:56:24
Speaker 1
But then I don't know, maybe there's something to it because autistic people also really feel and have a special connection with animals that's often bought up, which you do. If you ever go to a barbecue, you're with the dogs.

00:23:57:01 - 00:24:10:22
Speaker 2
I also notice, although you I wouldn't say that. You know what I mean by this. You like love rocket more than me. I love him, but you like love him like he's your baby. Like your biological son.

00:24:10:23 - 00:24:12:00
Speaker 1
My biological boy.

00:24:12:01 - 00:24:16:15
Speaker 2
I still think I'm. I'm better at noticing. Maybe if something's.

00:24:16:16 - 00:24:29:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. You feel you're like. I can feel he's got a toothache. I can just feel my boy. It's really weird how. Wow. This is. Who knows? Maybe we need to look into this more. Is it different with animals and kids?

00:24:29:16 - 00:24:33:12
Speaker 2
Maybe. I don't want to derail the podcast, though.

00:24:33:14 - 00:24:41:11
Speaker 1
But there's definitely a myth. We've busted the myth that autistic people don't have any empathy. Because you certainly do.

00:24:41:16 - 00:24:49:07
Speaker 2
Well, I think it's more what I've come to realize is people just don't understand empathy.

00:24:49:09 - 00:24:51:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's more complicated.

00:24:51:07 - 00:24:58:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, people understand it. Is that emotional empathy solely. And then I would agree. Yeah.

00:24:58:09 - 00:25:32:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, 100%. I think a key part of this as well is empathy is more about the other person than it is about us. Right. So the whole point of empathy is that the person who is struggling feels better. That's like why it's good. That's what it's for. And sometimes in these conversations we make it very self obsessed. So for me it's like, I feel what you're feeling.

00:25:32:17 - 00:25:39:03
Speaker 1
I'm crying. I'll do anything to help. And with you it I need to know exactly what you're feeling and then I'll give practical help.

00:25:39:04 - 00:25:40:18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:25:40:20 - 00:26:01:23
Speaker 1
What is a gorgeous question to ask or look at for someone that we care about is what is empathy for them? And can we learn to give the form, give, be empathetic in the way that they need, not in the way that we give naturally.

00:26:01:24 - 00:26:04:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. So like what they need, what they need from us.

00:26:04:12 - 00:26:11:09
Speaker 1
So it's like me saying I need a cuddle. Yeah. And you saying this off.

00:26:11:11 - 00:26:11:18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:26:11:19 - 00:26:42:05
Speaker 1
We're going to come back to that inner. But first a quick word from our amazing sponsor. We are incredibly lucky on the Late Bloomers podcast because our sponsor is the amazing Loop Earplugs. If you are neurodivergent, there is a high chance that you might be sensitive to sound. That can mean that going out to a restaurant can be full of distractions, and going to a gig might actually be physically painful for your gorgeous little ears.

00:26:42:05 - 00:27:05:00
Speaker 1
And luckily for you, there is a pair of loop earplugs for all of those things. We have put our favorites on our website with loop earplugs, and you can find it in the show notes of this episode or in our social media bios. Every single one of our listeners gets 20% off, and we really hope that you enjoy it.

00:27:05:00 - 00:27:13:18
Speaker 1
Right. And a fun little thing at the end, just to see if there is a difference in how we experience empathy.

00:27:13:19 - 00:27:15:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:27:15:12 - 00:27:40:17
Speaker 1
I'm going to ask a question. You can take time to think about it if you want, but if you think about your whole life, is there a moment when you could describe as like the most empathy you felt or the most empathetic thing someone else has done or been for you that like made a big difference to your life?

00:27:40:19 - 00:27:50:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, my brother Andy, when I was 18, obviously divulged abuse and stuff as a as a child. He used.

00:27:50:17 - 00:28:01:14
Speaker 1
To be just for anyone that doesn't know. You told Andy you had been through. Yeah. Childhood abuse from a grandparent. Yeah, yeah.

00:28:01:16 - 00:28:31:00
Speaker 2
And he met me and he didn't work that far away from me. But he met me every lunchtime and after work, but nothing other than just walked with me. We got a coffee, a bit. It was because of that. It was because of that. Yeah, it was just. It was just lovely. It was just there because he knew that I would have been feeling some strong feelings, and he was just there, and he was really led by me.

00:28:31:00 - 00:28:36:01
Speaker 2
Whether it got bought up in conversation with it didn't it was just it was just lovely.

00:28:36:03 - 00:28:43:07
Speaker 1
He was just by your side walking with you and you knew.

00:28:43:09 - 00:28:45:05
Speaker 1
Emotionally he was next to you.

00:28:45:06 - 00:28:45:15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:28:45:16 - 00:28:56:09
Speaker 1
Which is interesting, isn't it? Because that's not that isn't practical help or intellectualizing. He actually was sort of given the emotional empathy to you just, well, next to you.

00:28:56:10 - 00:29:10:00
Speaker 2
Yes and no. Yeah. But he also didn't he obviously knows me really well, and he didn't push any deep conversations and stuff that would make me uncomfortable. That just sort of happened naturally over ages.

00:29:10:01 - 00:29:20:15
Speaker 1
And you remember it all these years later? Yeah. That's the beauty of true empathy. Just being with someone that you never forget it.

00:29:20:16 - 00:29:22:07
Speaker 2
What about you?

00:29:22:09 - 00:29:35:03
Speaker 1
Mine is. It's good timing, actually, because I'm seeing her tonight. And my friend Cat. I'll never, ever, ever forget this. It was.

00:29:35:05 - 00:29:52:17
Speaker 1
A decade ago, and it was the day I found out I was getting evicted on my London basement flat. Because I'd spent all of my money in a strip club.

00:29:52:19 - 00:29:54:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Yes.

00:29:54:05 - 00:30:26:16
Speaker 1
You do as you do. And it was like the third time I was late on rent, and my landlord just said, you're being evicted. And I'm obviously on a sort of come down. I'm incredibly ashamed at this time in my life. My mental health was on the floor, and those were three very, very bad years. And I told her, I think I must have texted her, and she came to see me and took me out of.

00:30:26:18 - 00:30:29:08
Speaker 1
And I was just like.

00:30:29:10 - 00:30:30:00
Speaker 2
Broken.

00:30:30:04 - 00:31:01:01
Speaker 1
Absolutely broken. And she took me to Regent's Park in London. And we walked and we sat on a bench and we weren't even really like talking. She was just with me and I remember just burst out crying. But it was that like sobbing of like, I so hard. I never feel that way now. Like, what have I done?

00:31:01:02 - 00:31:20:16
Speaker 1
Life is over. I don't want to be here anymore. I didn't say any of that, but that was there and shouldn't say anything. She just sat with me. She just let me be. But I could feel that she was like, with me. Yeah. And I've never, ever, ever forgotten. Like she just was with me.

00:31:20:21 - 00:31:22:05
Speaker 2
Shout out to Kat.

00:31:22:06 - 00:31:23:02
Speaker 1
And Andy.

00:31:23:03 - 00:31:23:23
Speaker 2
And Andy to.

00:31:23:23 - 00:31:41:11
Speaker 1
Sometimes empathy is just just showing up. These people haven't said anything. No. By the way, in both of our examples, they didn't say anything. They didn't try and fix. They just walked or sat beside.

00:31:41:12 - 00:31:47:05
Speaker 2
They were best man and made of honor at the wedding as well. That's crazy. Is it? Oh.

00:31:47:07 - 00:32:03:09
Speaker 1
Not is it. Oh that's that's but here's my I. And that is the power of empathy. There you go. Maybe we've got it all wrong. Don't say anything. Just take someone for a walk and listen.

00:32:03:10 - 00:32:04:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:32:04:21 - 00:32:21:22
Speaker 1
Well, that is the Late Bloomers podcast. If you have liked it, it give us a like of follow subscribe. We'd love to hear. What is empathy for you? What's the most empathetic thing someone's done for you? Let's get a conversation going in the comments. Thank you so much and we will see you next week.