Laurel Donnellan 7:54
Okay, we're gonna start recording, and we're just gonna have fun. Okay, You are so welcome to the Compassionate Leaders Circle podcast. We met many years ago, but I've heard so much about you, and I'm so impressed with your background. David is a thought leader and education extraordinary person. He has many different aspects to education, but currently he's become the managing director of North America for Project Management Institute. You'll be able to read about his background, including his Oxford education, in the show notes. So, welcome, David. The pleasure. Thank

David Cumberbatch 9:11
you for having me.

Laurel Donnellan 9:13
I want to start before we get into your, your very amazing career and ideas around education and career readiness. I'd like to go back to, like, you, when you went to school, like, where did you grow up, and how did you find this path?

David Cumberbatch 9:33
Yeah, it's an interesting path. I grew up in Trinidad, originally, Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean, right off the coast of Venezuela is a small island with a lot of big dreams, right. So, there's there's there's, yeah, David and Dad, a family of a lot of folks who are dedicated to the social impact. So, my, my father was a pastor, my mom in worked in the government sector, and my grandfather was a huge influence on my young days, was a high school principal at the age of 21 the youngest ever high school principal in Trinidad, which he keeps, he keeps reminding us of, and then went on to lead the largest orphanage in Trinidad in his latter years as well, so as we revisited his home, he would talk all the stories about raising orphans and placing them, and a lot of them would still visit his home, even in his retirement, and talk about how much he influenced and shaped their lives. So it was a very interesting upbringing, and it's an island where you're surrounded by family and community, and you feel this sense of purpose, and that change was in the air, that you know we're an emerging economy, lots of things happening in Trinidad, and a lot of us actually aspire to go away, go abroad, study, learn, and come back, but I was the one of my siblings that ended up not going back and ending up staying in the US and making this a career,

Laurel Donnellan 11:02
and tell me a little bit about your own education.

David Cumberbatch 11:06
Yes, I started off in high school in Trinidad. It's all British. The system of education is follows the O level, A level, Oxford, Cambridge boards. So did that all the way through sixth form in Trinidad, and then won a national award of scholarship to pursue undergraduate study. Ended up going to the UK to pursue a combined double honors major in computer science and economics at University of Kent at Canterbury. Graduated there with first class honors, and then was awarded the Rhodes Scholarship to pursue my master's at Oxford, studied at Oxford for two years, and then out of Oxford was recruited by Procter and Gamble, and started my career with P and G. I still see myself as a Proctoid. Definitely was an incredible early shaping experience. We spent almost half of our time in the first years at PNG in training and learning how to do things the Procter and Gamble way, and it's still a great company that I admire and respect up to today. And then from PNG, I, that was in Europe, and then in Latin America, I ended up being recruited by Microsoft, and that was my beginning of my American journey for the last 30 years in the US, became a naturalized citizen in the US, and have really spent most of my career now in the US, even though I spent the formative years of my career in Europe, Latin America.

Laurel Donnellan 12:35
We're not going to spend too much time on K through 12 education, but one of the last interviews I did was with Crimson Global Academy with the CEO and head of US education there, and they teach the UK system and the US system, and you're probably someone that could comment on how's it different, and what do you think is better?

David Cumberbatch 13:01
I'm biased because of my experience of no, because yeah, I've spent so much time now working on the US K through 12 system, it's been interesting to compare the two, but what I admire about the UK system is that it is more subject-based, you know, when you're at AC T or SAT, you're looking at getting general scores in math and English cognition and predicting how you will perform in university, whereas the O levels and A levels allows the student in their kind of early high school years to start to determine their career path earlier and to differentiate their intellectual abilities by picking subjects, so those subjects then are reflected in the eight or nine subjects that you do at O level, and the three or four subjects you specialize with at A level, which is very different to the US high school curriculum, which tends to be packed with many, many subjects that you must complete to earn your credits to graduate. Now, raising two sons through the US system. It's been interesting comparing their experience to my experience, and both of my sons are now in college, so it's been a fascinating journey. And we chat about it a lot. My, my oldest just got a great opportunity to to study abroad for a few weeks in, and then visited Oxford in England, so that was a very one of these strange full circle moments where he's sending pictures back and he's in a lecture hall, but now he's at Iowa Law School and completing his law degree next year, so I'm gonna look forward to that graduation, but but but overall I think that the biggest difference is is I like the breadth of the British education, and the fact that it accelerates earlier, so that you end up pursuing a three year undergraduate degree instead of a four year undergraduate degree, because the A levels effectively are the first year of college in the US. The challenge with the British system, however, is the rigidity of the British system, so because it's such a rigid system, it favors individuals who come from professional parented households, because you have to make very big decisions around your career and early on. At 14, 1516, you're making significant decisions. Should I continue on to do A level? Should I pursue math and science subjects versus art subjects, you're making those decisions at a very young age. What I love about the American system is the ability to discover and find yourself later, and to, and you have lots of stories in America of folks going back to college in the 20s and 30s that non-traditional pathways now become the majority of individuals in US post-secondary, as they actually discover themselves, find themselves, and then pursue careers that make a huge difference, but they have that flexibility, more that flexibility to change majors, to pursue different careers and interests in the US than I saw in the UK, and in the UK, I think it's a system designed to recreate the previous generation, almost, because, because they're forcing you to make such, such big decisions early on. Some pathways are closed to you by the time you're 18 or 19, because you chose the wrong subjects.

Laurel Donnellan 16:12
Yeah, and just to give your other son equal time, you have one son studying law. What is your other son studying? Yes,

David Cumberbatch 16:19
my youngest son, he's he actually just transferred from IO to he's in York University in Toronto, and he's doing pre-med biomedical sciences, so, so, so, he's he's enjoying life in Toronto. My wife's from Toronto, so they're dual citizens, US and Canadian, so it allows him to be there. And the fun part about the new role at PMI, is that I'm in charge of North America, which includes Canada, US, and the Caribbean. So, I feel like it's the perfect role for me, because I get to visit everyone in my family on my various stops, and as you'll learn, there's a lot of travel involved in this role. I effectively feel like a politician, I have to, I have to meet all of the PMI chapters in North America, and try to touch base with as many of them as I can in a given year, and there are 150 chapters across these three three areas - Canada, North America, US, and the Caribbean - that I must touch base with as much as I humanly can. So, so it's a high travel role, but it's a wonderful community of chapters.

Laurel Donnellan 17:22
It's kind of fun to talk to a new executive in a new role, you know. You come from this rich background that includes corporate and education, and

David Cumberbatch 17:35
yes, and for profit and nonprofit world to the nonprofit world, but I think mid-career is where I found this passion for education and technology, and the convergence of the two. So, for the last 20 years, I've focused on education technology, because it brought everything together. The formative years at PNG and Microsoft, and kind of the Fortune 50 years, or my first 13 years or so out of business school, all focused on large scale transfer transformative projects, and then moving over into the ed tech space, where I think in my working lifetime I've seen dramatic change. 100 year education model has gone through significant change and continues to go through significant, probably the most significant changes it's experienced in 100 years, and I believe that within the next decade we will see a dramatically different pathway from K 12 into workforce preparedness into post secondary. As we now talk about lifetime learning, the fact that an individual now needs to reinvent themselves more frequently, more often, the fact that education can be more personalized is absolutely amazing, and that AI really accelerates the final shift here, because it allows an individual to really understand and identify these data analytics driven pathways into the world of work.

Laurel Donnellan 18:59
I'm going to come back to all that, and I'm excited to talk to you about all that, but I did a little research yesterday that I want to share with you. I was thinking about people born now. I have a colleague who has a new baby, and I'm thinking about Oliver Hawkins, who lives in Utah, and how many jobs he will have, so I looked up when I was born in 1960 as a baby boomer. They predicted that first of all, my family predicted I would have no career because I came from a very traditional Italian family where women didn't work right at the time they weren't studying how many jobs you would have or how many careers you would have, because the assumption was if you had a career, you'd have one, right? In actuality, baby boomers had have had 12 jobs and seven career chapters, right, and right now they're they're predicting, and maybe the prediction is bad, maybe it's good that that generation beta will have 18 to 30 jobs, or seven to 10 career chapters, which I've been thinking about my own work. Our work is around helping people transition to work that they love, helping people be better leaders, so they can provide lovable work to this workforce. And I think I'm adding a third is to love figure out how to help people love the transition, because they're going to be going through more and more of them. I'm very interested in hearing from you around the trends in education, including virtual education. What is going well, and what could be better? Like, what did we get right in these, these big shifts, and what do we need to improve?

David Cumberbatch 21:02
That's that's a very big question, right? It's like, as I, as I think about what's working well, I think what's working well, as I said before, is that the amount of transitions does allow an individual, if they navigate correctly, to find themselves. So, as you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and self-actualization being at the top, that that the fact that you're not stuck in a manufacturing job for the rest of your career, I think that's working well, that individuals can reinvent, can discover passions later, and can pursue them, and they, that's that's working well. What attracted me to PMI is the fact that working in a company that's focused on professional certification and stackable certification allows the individual to over time come back and unlearn more, and so add more badges to their sash, which makes them more employable and more attractive to employers, so that that ability to add and to grow is critical over a longer period of time than just doing one degree at the beginning of your career and hoping that would be sufficient to get you through the next 40 years of work, so very, very different mindset that I think the world is shifting to, but in terms of what we've been doing that I think is not working very well, I think around some of the data that's recently been released around how we've embraced digital at the expense of everything else, and that especially now with AI, and the latest research showing that AI can actually impair cognitive development of young kids, that we have to be very thoughtful about how and when we introduce technology in the learning process over an individual's lifetime, we have to be much more deliberate and intentional about when is it harming versus when is it beneficial. I've always been a big proponent of paper and pencil still being valid in 2026 and beyond, because I really do believe that young kids, especially when their brains are not fully formed, so under the age of six or seven, should be using haptic response and tactile learning to really develop their brains fully. Both of my kids, we push them through piano as long as we could, because we're big believers in, you know, that that need for for additional forms of learning and cognitive development, and then later on in their lives, you know, I can see the introduction of technology in a hybrid way, and then gradually using technology in a pervasive way as they get through college, it makes a lot more sense, so I think that we've, we've kind of almost like the pendulum has swung too far into the world of of technology everywhere, and all technology is good, and now we're learning some hard lessons about social media and other things that that should correct that and that imbalance.

Laurel Donnellan 23:57
Actually, was talking to one of my nephews recently, who is in his 20s, and he told me that no one should use AI until they're 21

David Cumberbatch 24:06
I'm kind of like joining that camp slowly, because you know it's like we had our kids with flip phones until high school, because we were just like, you need it for communication, why do you need, you know, a smartphone that went to school called Basis for a couple years, and Basis, that one of the, it's one of the best charter schools in the US. One of their formula, even before it became the fashionable, was that you check your cell phone at the door and you discuss in the classroom, you talk, you interact with your teacher, and now all of a sudden, folks, in, you know, 10 years later, folks are talking about, oh, yes, we need to, we need to ban devices from the, from the classroom, so, so I really do think that we've gone through the, the formative years of how to use technology to influence learning, and now we're, we're starting to implement some of the corrections for that, for that rapid and aggressive integration of it into the classroom, and I'm hoping that we finally get the balance right at some point over the coming months and years, but, but of course, AI, I see as highly beneficial. The trick, of course, is how and when to use it correctly.

Laurel Donnellan 25:21
We're all still trying to figure that out. I had an interview with two corporate people yesterday about that yesterday, and there feels like everyone's throwing AI at all their problems, and they're creating new problems. So, I think we have to proceed with caution and hope, right? Like, I think a year ago I was afraid of AI, and today I, I feel like it's, it has as many perils as it has promises. It's sort of a balance, I'm more balanced in my approach,

David Cumberbatch 25:55
correct? And I see it as, like, the funny thing about folks like us who've been at this for, for, you know, 30 years plus, you have seen the evolution of technology, like, you know, I saw the computer revolution when I was in, in, in school, that, and it became a skill that was mandatory, you know, you had to be computer literate, and then the internet, you know, in the 90s and early, early 2000s you know, again another wave of capabilities and technologies that you had to become literate and fluent in, and now I see this new generalized technology of AI as something that you must become literate in and embrace, because it's going to be around, it's going to be pervasive, it's something that will become just like every other technology, it, you know, invades every aspect of our lives, so we have to get used to it. We have to harness it, but we also have to, as you said, have that balanced view, looking at what are the, what are the benefits. How do I use this correctly? And in some cases, like, you know, parents stepping up and actually saying what is the right and appropriate time, and how many hours a day is the right amount of technology usage that's ideal for my child or my student at this at this phase in their lives.

Laurel Donnellan 27:12
I think that's also going to translate to workplaces and helping workers spend a little less time on screens as we are on a screen right now,

David Cumberbatch 27:23
exactly

Laurel Donnellan 27:24
looking at kind of pivoting more back to what your current role is, and your leadership role is. I am fascinated with the fact that you're working at a company that's been around for 20 years, is that right?

David Cumberbatch 27:39
No, ACT is sorry, PMI has been around for over 60 years.

Laurel Donnellan 27:44
Oh, I got my numbers wrong. Yeah, in

David Cumberbatch 27:48
the 60s, and started off as a membership org, so all the project professionals that it serves join these chapters and stay connected to PMI after they've earned the certification, and there's this huge volunteer organization. We recently announced that the PMI has passed 800,000 members worldwide, with over 1.7 million professionals that have been certified by PMI. So, there's this huge network of professionals that have the certifications that are actively involved in managing projects everywhere, and that's a really exciting stat. And the dream now is, how fast can we get to a million, you know, members, and that, that I think is now looking closer and closer, probably in the next two or three years.

Laurel Donnellan 28:38
So I imagine 60 years ago, people were meeting live and talking and teaching everything live. And fast forward to today, talk to me about what I mean. For my listeners, they may not understand project management, and what actually happens today with your members. And tell me also about your corporate culture,

David Cumberbatch 29:01
yeah. So, so what I've observed, and it's been two short months, but one of them, what I've observed is that they are slowly and gradually embracing hybridizing of the of the membership model, meaning that some of the meetings are in person. I've been to a few in Chicago land, and that's one of our largest chapters in the US, as well as a meeting in Regina, Saskatchewan, where we had a lot of the regions huddling there. So, the in-person meeting is still important. It's great for sharing learnings and best practices, and networking, and mentorship, but they also have extended to offer a lot of sessions like this, where folks want to do virtual meetups and lessons can be shared by an expert or bringing on, you know, some experienced chapter members, just sharing life lessons and learnings, so that younger members can get up to speed. They also offering a lot of training opportunities, because a lot of folks join because they want to become certified, or they want to pursue the next level up in the certification pathway, so so they're embracing it and leveraging technologies like Zoom and Teams to conduct these online sessions, and I think that over time, as I look at my sons, their interest is pretty much all online. It's like they'll be interesting to see what that percentage shifts to. I recently looked at our stats in terms of test taking, and we're still at 60% of folks preferring to take the tests at the centers in person, which I was like surprised at, but I believe that we're going to hit an inflection point with Generation Beta or Alpha in the coming years, where it flips immediately, it will go to probably 80% online test taking, because of their strong preference as digital natives to do everything on the computer. You know, it's just a matter of time before we see that shift, and you know, our average test takers are in their 30s, so we still haven't seen the shift yet, but I'm sure the shift that universities are already seeing with 18 year olds will eventually hit our test taking preference.

Laurel Donnellan 31:07
So, these certifications, so I hear that there's like a committee that are mentoring each other and teaching each other. There's the actual certifications that you organize virtually and live is also a component about job search. Is there a correct we have for

David Cumberbatch 31:28
our members? We we have a PMI job board that showcases project management opportunities and positions all over the world dedicated for members, so that you know if a job is posting that says, hey, we require a PMP or a CAPM. These are that individuals get tested. That's a really great service that we offer. But more importantly, as the world shifts towards a gig economy where fractional work

Laurel Donnellan 31:55
is the norm,

David Cumberbatch 31:55
or a virtual economy where 20 something year olds are leaving college and immediately going to work from home, I think it's extremely important that they have a sense of connection and belonging, and what I've experienced when I walked out of college and went into P and G, and was working at a company where we all had to wear a blue or white shirt and our ties and our jackets, and we became enculturated in the PNG way, and I did that through observing and sitting next to folks. I think everyone drove the same cars, even because, because you wanted to be seen as fitting in. That was the norm, you know, in my early career. Now these students are coming out of work. I have a good friend whose daughter graduated a few years ago, and she's never set foot in the office. She works completely virtually, and she's actually moved from one city to another city, because, you know, her social life, she decided to make a move, and she's still doing the same job, but she's like on a screen every day. I think that the role of the chapters actually could become very, very informative. So, I'm excited about that. At seeing something that was seen as an extra nice to have could actually become critical, because these students need to learn social skills and interpersonal skills. They need mentorship and guidance, and where are they going to learn it if they're working fractionally and virtually from home? So, so we think that what I've been speaking with some of the chapters that I've met with, is that this, the chapters can actually become even more critical as that anchor point throughout their career, as you said, as they change jobs 13 times and they work fractionally, at least they know that in every city in the world there's a PMI chapter, and as you join as a member, you now feel like you're part of this, this huge club of folks that are convening every week. There's an event somewhere, and you could come to the chapter website, and you can see, I think, in the next couple weeks, I'm going to.. I live in the Quad Cities, so we're going to go to a Quad Cities baseball game with the PMI chapter in the Quad Cities, and I think it's so itself much fun that the, the, the Managing Director for North America is living in the city with the smallest chapter in North America. We have, I think, 79 or 80 members in the Quad Cities, versus 15,000 in Chicago. But I'm going to enjoy that. I can put on my baseball hat and just pretend that I'm just an ordinary member when I go to that. But, of course, if they listen to this podcast, they'll know that I'm not.

Laurel Donnellan 34:19
I think that's, I think people are looking for community, and even if young people are reluctant, they need in person, you know. And as we look at the skills gap right now, I also some search on that before our call, I can nerd it out with you. The skills gap right now is they're looking at soft skills, or they're they're rebranding that durable skills, right exactly, which is critical thinking. PMI calls them

David Cumberbatch 34:51
power skills. I like that even better.

Laurel Donnellan 34:55
We need, we need new branding to encourage people, but critical thinking, listening, interpersonal skills, you can't get that all on Zoom. I feel like you need to be in person. AI, you already talked about, we all have to learn about AI and learn how to use AI. I

David Cumberbatch 35:11
think the best way to look at it, AI is the literacy, just like everything else. It's like you have to be fluent in the language of AI, you have to develop your own personal toolkit, your own, you know, how you leverage it, when you leverage it, and has become another tool in your toolkit. The employer is going to expect that of you. And what also impressed me about PMI is that PMI, as kind of lent into it, we now have our first AI certification. So the CPI is our fastest scoring certification in the history of PMI, leveraging AI project management. And then we launched our first AI platform, so it's a specialized platform called PMI Infinity, which allows a project manager to have a P, an AI companion that they can put their project questions into resource allocation questions, time management, cost management questions, and provides answers that are commensurate with with PMI framework and standards, so it creates a safe, dedicated AI engine they can use on a daily basis, and I was, I was amazed, a lot of companies that are 6070, years old are not doing as many innovative and really transformational things with AI, so the CEO has actually announced to the team that this is not a new revolution in the market that we're going to miss. You have to embrace it, jump on it, and run with it, because the passion is going to be dramatically impacted over the next few years by AI. There's a lot of folks that are posting on LinkedIn that you know all you need is AI to actually manage the project, and what we're saying is, like, no, that those power skills, those soft skills, or durable skills are critical as you think about the change management and the human disruption that happens when you implement a large mega project in a company or a transformational change project to the company, and that the human at the center is critical. So, as we think through the our flagship of credential is the PMP. The PMP is being refreshed this summer, and it's include including AI for the first time in the curriculum of the PMP, as well as sustainability. So, thinking of the environmental impact of your project, and some of those, some of that is regulated, but some of that is actually just makes good sense, good human sense to create a world for our children and our grandchildren. So that change

Laurel Donnellan 37:36
makes your members more employable, which is important, right? The other things that are missing are hands-on experience and career readiness,

David Cumberbatch 37:47
correct. So, in terms of hands-on experiences, we talked about the what I've noticed, especially with this younger generation coming out of college, is that it's extremely hard to get the first job, and there's a lot of AI parsing going on in terms of reviewing resumes, and they're looking for specific skills and hands-on experience that a lot of these kids do not have. There's a lot of resentment now from kids coming out of college and saying, like, you know, I thought this was going to prepare me for that first job, but I can't land that first job in the field that I just trained in. And then the job descriptions themselves are becoming more and more advanced, especially in computer science and engineering. The, we've heard that entry-level jobs are now starting to sound like your jobs that require five or six years of experience. So, one of the discussions we've had internally is that can volunteerism through the chapters be a way for individuals to learn those kills, and I think that there's a huge opportunity here in the nonprofit space, as well, in the, in the volunteer space, to actually say, well, at least I can start doing project management, and you know, for my local hospital, I can help them work on a project to, you know, rearrange the cafeteria, you find projects everywhere, if you're interested in this space, and you start to get that hands-on experience. One person yesterday was telling me that in their first interview in project management, she actually brought up the home project that she worked on, you know, like planning a wedding, and got the job because they were asking for hands-on experience, and she had none.

Laurel Donnellan 39:19
I think sometimes people don't know that when people are interviewing you they're looking for concrete examples,

David Cumberbatch 39:26
correct.

Laurel Donnellan 39:26
And another thing that I just was pitched, which I will also share in the show notes, is there is at the University, University of Pennsylvania, they've created a program for high schoolers, they give them internship training, so they prepare them for the workforce, and then they come to companies, and maybe you want to hire some of them. They give you free access to intern high school interns that are trained, and it doesn't cost the company anything. It's funded, and I think it's brilliant, because

David Cumberbatch 40:03
it totally makes sense. I fully agree with you. I know PMI has been pushing to expand our student clubs and student memberships. We have one certificate offered at the high school level called PM Ready, so Project Management Ready with Cert report, and then we have free foundational courses for anyone who expresses interest in starting to learn about project and product and project management in general, and I agree with you. I think that the earlier you can get that experience, that hands-on experience, the earlier you can can embrace the fact that, hey, I'm going to need to show evidence that I know how to do this, as long as you know that if you translate it into teenage speak, it's like you got to be able to get stuff done, and it's like, and if you could show you can get stuff done, you can get into this field. A lot of employers, what we saw at ACT, and with AC T's research, is that a lot of employers are willing to invest in your development journey, they're willing to put in, in some cases, up to $10,000 a year into an individual's training, but what they need to do is de-risk that investment by knowing that the individual comes in with certain skills on day one, and they just need evidence that this is somebody who is investment worthy, so you know you have to show that you're willing to work hard and that you have basic math and literacy skills that they can actually cultivate and invest in, and that's that's the important kind of social contract with the with the young talented individual that needs to be struck.

Laurel Donnellan 41:27
Yeah, I also think that work is fun, and I think there's a lot of teenagers that don't understand that, and I'd like to help them understand that. And certainly making money is fun too. So I think

David Cumberbatch 41:39
I'm working at something that you're passionate about or have inclinations to at ACT, Judy will remember I did a lot of work on getting folks ready for the world of work by understanding their interests. There's these interest inventory assessments. I did it with my sons. I think it's extremely important that you understand your leanings, not necessarily what career field to go into, but you should understand if are you're a people person or things person, you know, are you an ideas person, are you, you know, introverted, extroverted, all these things can inform you in terms of the types of fields and the types of professions you should pursue, and I think that that's so important for a young person to be self-aware, you know, and those inventory assessments can give you that inclination. Yes, I really like working with my hands, I like building things, or I really like thinking through big problems,

Laurel Donnellan 42:30
and I think it's never too late to re to have that conversation with yourself. We're actually talking to Mark, we're, we, we're in the midst of making an AI tool where you can have those conversations with AI, so we're working with someone in England tomorrow morning on that. So

David Cumberbatch 42:48
excited

Laurel Donnellan 42:49
that, yeah, I'm very excited too. I'll share that with you as it's developed. Tell me about the prereq, a prerequisite to get a certification. Are there, do you have to be a high school graduate, or how does that? Yes,

David Cumberbatch 43:04
for the what you know, we talked about PM ready, which is, you don't have any prerequisites for that. High schoolers can pursue that, but our first professional certification is the CAPM, that's the I call it our level one certification that precedes the PMP, and the CAPM is available for individuals with a high school diploma, and I'm trying to recall the exact amount of work experience, but high school diploma plus a certain amount of hours of project management work experience. You can pursue the CAPM, and then after that we have the PMP. There are a few universities that offer the PMP alongside an MBA or an MSc in Project Management, because the PMP is seen as one of these gold standard certifications for the project management profession. So, I'm very, very excited that you know I'm going to be pushing into that, because I really do feel that the degree itself is not enough, that we, we have a great opportunity at PMI to embed certification pathways inside of degrees, so that individual doesn't graduate, try to find a job, realize, oh no, I need to go back to school. It'll be better if they came out of school and they already had four or five certifications with the degree, and they are highly employable day one, you know they're in learning mode, when they're in universities, the perfect time to concurrently pursue evidence of skills, as you talked about, pursue internships, work every summer, I push my boys to work every summer, you need to earn credentials, the one that's in biomedical science, he's already certified in flubotomy and some other procedures, he works at the hospital, they are a home, and anytime they sponsor him to do a certificate, he pursues it. My older one, he did ROTC, so through the army, he has all of these different skills and badges that he talks about. He's, he's a, what is it, a combat engineer as well. So he loves blowing things up, you know. He used to break all the things in our house as well, so, so that makes a lot of sense. Sounds like he likes

Laurel Donnellan 45:03
to blow things up and put things back together, so one

David Cumberbatch 45:08
wonderfully. When he graduates law school, he'll also be, I think, in line for the captain rank in the army. So, and once they go in to be a JAG officer, so, so that will be wonderful to watch. It's like, you know, it comes all together, but I think he's even more highly employable because he has these outside of the classroom experiences. Yeah, and he's worked every summer. This summer he's working at the DOJ.

Laurel Donnellan 45:32
Oh, wow. So, let's pivot over to your role as a leader. So, you're brand new, you're how big is your organization? How many people do you employ

David Cumberbatch 45:46
right now? We have about 30 people working on North America, but of course we're managing 150 chapters of volunteers, so these volunteer organizations are, you know, represent over 300,000 individuals across the US that gather on these weekly and monthly basis, and we have to make sure that they have the right content, they have strategic alignment, that they, that we're providing all the services they need to continue to run successful chapters and highly engaging chapters across the country.

Laurel Donnellan 46:16
Is PMI a not for profit? Or, for PMI is a not

David Cumberbatch 46:19
for profit, you know 501 c6 not for profit and operates out of Pennsylvania, but it's a fully virtual company, so we all work from from various screens all over the world.

Laurel Donnellan 46:30
And how, how do you, you know, how is the culture developed in this virtual world? What are you doing? What I've seen, it's

David Cumberbatch 46:38
like, you know, he said there's two short months, but it's they've been doing this now for over four years since Covid, and what's been amazing is that they are they fully embraced it as a part of the culture at PMI. They're doing things that I've never seen before, like having this honor point system to get awards. So I just got my first points this morning because our team, as part of the excursion here in Portland, our team went out on an outing and took some great photographs, and we were awarded points. So I was so proud to get my first honor points that lead towards an award. And what I like is that instead of I remember back in my Microsoft days, you'd win an employee of the month like an award, and you'd put it on your desk, and everyone would see it on your desk, but now we don't have desks, so you have to create an award system that is now virtual that can actually put a highlight around your team's profile on Microsoft, so people can actually see you won an award, so everything is now trying to be replicated in an online environment. What I also admire is that there's a lot of emphasis on creating a safe and an engaging environment. There's a lot of celebration going on on Pride Month this month. There's it's an extremely diverse company here in Portland. We have 270 employees this week gathering. There's a mandate that we need to gather at least once a year. You need to press the flesh and see, see other employees. So we try really hard to do these gatherings, and we have folks here now from 30 countries in Portland this week, which is pretty amazing.

Laurel Donnellan 48:12
That's amazing. So, what are you doing in person that you can't do virtually?

David Cumberbatch 48:18
The emphasis for the in person, because everyone wants to do side meetings about business while we're here, but and there's some time allocated for that, a lot of free time allocated for the work-related huddles, but they're the most of the programming is really around motivational experiences that we could do together, like taking those photographs on those excursions and teams and competing for awards yesterday, that was a lot of fun. We went to the Portland Zoo, which was fantastic. They're trying really very consciously to make sure you sit at tables with folks that you don't normally work with. Did you build these? It kind of replaced the water cooler conversation by having these, you know, unplanned meetups and mashups, and then you actually realize, wait a minute, the person I was sitting on the bus next to yesterday was giving me some incredible insights in terms of what's happening in Europe and some of the challenges they're having with enterprise customers, and I'm not taking notes, you know, and I don't, I don't remember who it was, but it was somebody at PMI who had a lot of great insights on enterprise customers in Europe, you know, so that's that's basically already happening as we sit together this week. When I was with the Gates Foundation, very similarly they have learning weeks, so about two or three times a year we would gather, and some of them would be the whole company flying into Seattle, and to, you know, to hear from the executive team to really gather and to spend time together, so I think that this, this idea of virtual with the occasional deep meetups, I think it's a great way to to adjust to a new world, a new reality. What the CEO said in a message yesterday was that one of the best things about the transition has been the fact that the company is now much more diverse, because when they were in Philadelphia, it was just recruiting from the domestic or local pool, but now they recruit the talent wherever the talent is, you know. So that means that we now spread all over the globe, and and it's true when they all come together like this. This was amazing with the World Cup yesterday, and to see folks coming in, the folks from Africa were all in their Ghana T-shirts, and we have Brazilians with their Brazilian T-shirts, and we're sitting in the meeting, and it's like, oh my gosh, look at this room, it's like colors and cultures and backgrounds and languages, it's an amazing celebration of diversity,

Laurel Donnellan 50:41
that's great to hear, and I think in the words of Alicia Keys, diversity is not a threat, it's a gift,

David Cumberbatch 50:50
and I think he also said that we now reflect our members, because if you look at the diversity of these 800,000 members, if the company was all this little tiny Philadelphia in the suburbs of Philadelphia. This little company cannot reflect this global cultural diversity that we are, that we now represent, that this diverse culture will then be reflected in our offerings over time, as you start to actually really think through, you know, cultivating diverse projects worldwide, projects, projects in different cultures and countries, and one of the things we talked about yesterday was that most of these project teams. Now, I was meeting with John Deere a few weeks ago, and they said, like, there's no project team at John Deere that meets to talk about an enterprise project that's not in three different continents,

Laurel Donnellan 51:36
right? So that is just so much aspect

David Cumberbatch 51:39
of the work,

Laurel Donnellan 51:40
so much potential, I don't want to pass this by, because I work with a lot of different companies and talk to a lot of leaders. I think this model for hybrid is so smart. I think every leader should think about, if you, if you have a virtual environment, think about activities when you're, when you're in person, think about all the things you can, you can't do virtually, and do those like I think sometimes people tend to do the same things they could do on Zoom, so you can't watch a soccer game together, you know, really, and drink beer and drink beer and high five each other, so that's terrific, so as you sit here two months in, what are you most excited about for the future of PMI and yourself?

David Cumberbatch 52:27
I think one of the things that really does excite me is the fact that now you can, you can work with a company that I think a lot of things are converging on, as we talked about the world of post-secondary learning and education is moving towards this lifelong learning experience, and an evidence of skills experience, and that stackable credentials and professional certifications really is the buzzword throughout all of post-secondary, and sitting at a company like this, which is one of the, I would say, one of the top 2% according to Burning Glasses data, certifications in the world is the PMP, because it has proven evidence that it dramatically changes your earning potential, and it also dramatically improves your career acceleration. So, these are, you know, highly, you know, the sought-after credentials that can, that can transform lives. I look forward to working in this, in this space to really open up new pathways. A lot of my life and my career has been spent with the Gates Foundation, with AC T on looking for ways to create pathways for individuals who grew up like me, or either immigrants or, you know, first generation college, and are trying to kind of figure out how do they, how do they navigate this world to get into a high paying job, into a good career, but they can't afford a degree, you know, the recent articles on degrees that are now 100,000 per year really scared me, because, because the that rung on the ladder is becoming more out of reach for more and more individuals, so, so, as I look at working at PMI, one of the things we've already been discussing as a team for North America is like, how do we really work with in organizations like Opportunity at Work to to really create accessibility to to let folks know that the CAPM, which is our first professional certification that leads into six figure paying jobs in project management, only requires a high school diploma or a GD, and some year, some years of experience in project management, and you can start on this journey to certify an individual all the way up to a PMP, up to PFMP or PGMP, so that they can advance their careers and have high paying jobs without having to pursue a degree, that's going to be a really powerful and important part of our future. We just heard that our board has just approved the expansion of the definition of a student member, so that student members are not just at traditional universities, student members can be non-traditional students at vocational institutions for the first time, and that's going to be 2026 and we're going to recognize that, because that gives them a significant discount to become a member and to start learning and earning their credentials. So, so I'm very excited about that as well. So, it shows that the company is evolving and changing to create these accessible, affordable pathways for more and more and more individuals to strive after good jobs, and I think that that that is absolutely critical in a world where it seems to be coming harder and harder.

Laurel Donnellan 55:35
Well, we're almost at time, and I almost hate to end the conversation because I have a million more questions, so you'll have to come back. We'll, we'll talk, man. We'll talk more, but just to wrap for today, I always like to ask my guests, what is one life lesson and one leadership lesson that you want to share with our listeners? And then I'd love for you to share how we learn more about PMI.

David Cumberbatch 56:04
That's true. So, I would say, in terms of life lesson, the key thing, and we talked about this a lot this morning, I think it's such an important thing, is that safety and trust are the foundation for every relationship that lasts, and that's at home or at work, and you know, I want to shout out, of course, to my wonderful wife. You know, 28 years of marriage, you want to create a safe environment where there can be conflict, and there can be the safety and the trust in knowing that we can resolve this together, because there's this commitment and long-term commitment towards the mission, you know, and towards the family, similarly, in the workplace, that's that's a critical life lesson that should be applied, that you, we must create safe environments where we can evolve and learn. In my early career, I moved from Procter and Gamble to Microsoft. It's my first kind of 15 years out of business school in the world of work, and a PNG had a promotion from within culture, where training was critical, and they invested a significant amount in training, and you felt safe, and you felt that the HR would meet with you and discuss your potential pathways in your future. And then I went over to Microsoft, where it was an up or out culture, and most of the executives above you were being brought in from outside, so it was like a stark difference in culture, very aggressive, very much based on did you get a four or five in your performance review. I don't think you're going to be here long. Who is your bottom 20% So that type of cutthroat culture, I know it's changed a lot since then, but, but that I didn't see that as a sustainable culture. You have to really, I think, invest heavily in understanding the mission of your organization, especially with Generation Beta, Generation Alpha. Then you're not going to recruit the best talent and have them stay long if you're, if you're, you know, pursuing a cutthroat culture. So that's, that's on the life lesson side, I think on the on the leadership side, the thing that I'm leaning into heavily right now, and talking to my team at PMI about is about the fact that even if we're compassionate leaders and we care about all of the mission, the goal of our employees, of our stakeholders, are you know, a board, or the communities that we serve, the individuals that we serve, we still need to face the hard truths about the market, and so, for our own sustainability in the nonprofit world, we do compete head to head with for-profit companies that are in the space that are offering alternative credentials and certifications, and we must actually continue to work on efficiencies around our cost structure. We must continue to work on the effectiveness of our marketing, so that individuals know who we are and can access our certifications. We need to let individuals know that these certifications are high quality, and they can give you a really good outcome versus some of the credentials out there. I think the last count we said there are over 1.5 million certifications in the US and certificates in the US in the that are recognized by employers in the US, but only 5% of them are very high quality. So that's a very big concern. It seems like every month there's a new certificate that's popping up or a new badge on LinkedIn, and some of these badges are for just attending a seminar or attending a course, and they don't have the type of rigor of a PMP or of a CAPM, and I think that the students are going to need to be educated on that, otherwise a lot of folks are going to pursue pathways that are going to basically, they're going to end up feeling like, wait a minute, I just spent a lot of money, even on some degrees, I spent a lot of money, and I'm not seeing the ROI that I anticipated. So, so I think that it's critical that we embrace the words of Clay Christensen, and think that disruption is not just for the for-profits. Disruption happens to all of us, and we need to stay vigilant.

Laurel Donnellan 1:00:00
Yeah, we can be compassionate and competitive, because we need.. there's no compassionate leadership if we don't exist, right? So we have to.. we have

David Cumberbatch 1:00:11
to.. I like that, that, that, that statement, that it's like that they don't compete against each other, being competitive and being compassionate, they aren't attention, they're actually the same thing, because in the end, if you can pursue both, you lead it leads to stewardship and sustainability, even in the nonprofit sector,

Laurel Donnellan 1:00:30
and excellence, because there are a lot of people spending money on things that aren't really going to help them get employed,

David Cumberbatch 1:00:38
correct, correct, and you do a disservice to that individual even more, so if you had left them alone, or if you actually convince them to pursue a certificate and spend their hard-earned money on a course that leads to a credential that is that is not recognized, or that will lead to an obsolete job.

Laurel Donnellan 1:00:55
Yeah, so David, how do we learn more about the Project Management Institute?

David Cumberbatch 1:01:02
Well, I would say start with the website, or you know, our LinkedIn page, you know, pmi.org PMI is a great institute and a great pathway for many people to pursue careers, just as you mentioned with the talent gap. Our latest data shows that there are 25 million unfilled jobs in the project management profession, and that's growing rapidly, even in the age of AI. This is seen as a true hard skill that that will be valued for years to come. It's very important. The number one major in post-secondary is the business major, but I think the combination of the business major and project management skills makes you a cut above makes you stand out of the pack, so that employers know that you're not just someone who theoretically understands business, but you can get stuff done.

Laurel Donnellan 1:01:55
Thank you, David. It was lovely talking to you. I learned a ton, and I'm excited to continue the conversation.

David Cumberbatch 1:02:02
Thank you so much. Take care,

Laurel Donnellan 1:02:07
Judy and Amanda. You can come back. I'm going to keep recording in case you have questions for David or me that we didn't answer, or information that you'd like me to put in the article.

Judy Brennan 1:02:18
Amanda had mentioned something early on, David. Thanks. I thought it was a great interview, by the way. I thought you were both, both pretty outstanding. I have to say,

Laurel Donnellan 1:02:29
fun, didn't we? Yes, I think

David Cumberbatch 1:02:31
when you started with that lemonade on the porch, that really helped. I had,

Judy Brennan 1:02:37
but one of the things that Amanda had said was that because of the AI certificate? David, the PM, PMI-trained folks often lead companies in AI adoption, you know, because it's a funny thing, they go in to manage one project and yet, right, they then set the course for the whole company. I just want to,

Laurel Donnellan 1:03:01
I have time, but we are at time, so I want to, I want to honor your time. If you have a few more minutes, I'd love for him to answer that question.

David Cumberbatch 1:03:12
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure we could capture some of these things. Amanda, did

Judy Brennan 1:03:15
I get that right? Is that what you were a few

David Cumberbatch 1:03:17
minutes? Yes, I, the, you're absolutely right that the AI transformation is actually now fueling a lot of these large projects. They are PMOs in organizations or project management offices that are now dedicated to how do we successfully implement AI internally or externally in our companies, and a lot of project managers are saying, like, yeah, they need to be highly proficient, highly knowledgeable, but also have to understand the hybrid nature of work, that that AI doesn't necessarily replace the whole job, it transforms the job from within. So this idea of studying and understanding a job from the inside out, and then actually understanding where can AI pose the most benefit, the PMI is doing it internally, that we're doing it to ourselves by actually doing an AI transformation model internally, but we're also doing it through our products, because the product managers that we serve are all asking for it as a skill set, so we're offering more courses, and we're offering this new CPM AI credential that that a lot of PMPs are pursuing to demonstrate that they have the skill set to help companies transform into this new world.

Judy Brennan 1:04:33
Good answer, Amanda. Did we hit it?

Laurel Donnellan 1:04:36
Yeah, I think we hit it. It's basically about, yeah, making sure those AI implementations and initiatives are successful. In the end, it's not solely about the technology itself. I have another question. Can anyone take us like I have project management experience? Anybody?

David Cumberbatch 1:04:51
Yes, like I need to take your courses. I would say that's the exciting thing about project management. It is a pervasive skill. We're saying, like, you know, our addressable market, the folks who this will really benefit are a lot of folks in the world of work who, you know, a big portion of their job is part that you don't have that project management in your title to actually pursue PMI certifications. It just has to be a critical part of your work. So, we see a lot of IT professionals, a lot of folks who call themselves program managers, who are constantly running projects on a daily basis. They are pursuing PMPs and PMI credentials because they want to prove to their companies that they know how to do this and they know how to adhere to standards. We had a recent strategic announcement around MORE. Amanda, you can help me in terms of what the acronym stands for, but what I love about the MORE strategy for PMI Next is that it really talks about strategic project management isn't just about the iron triangle, making sure the project is done on budget, on time, and in scope, which was the concept of project management for many, many years, but it's now about making sure that the project delivers the business results that it was intended to deliver, and that means that a project manager should be able to call an audible and say, wait a minute, this project, when it started, was supposed to do x and now it's doing y, or the scope of this project has changed so much, we need to hit pause. We need to go back to the key stakeholders and see if this is worth doing anymore. Should we actually shut this project down? That type of thinking is the right way, and if those more MRE principles are applied, the success rate of projects dramatically improves, and the cost savings to the company dramatically improves. You know, and I think that's that's where PMI can make a huge difference. It's like really showing that this is not just about, you know, the person in the back room using Excel to manage all the tasks necessary to get the job done, but it's somebody who works cross-functionally and it's constantly re-evaluating on a daily basis. I think one of the R is for relentlessly reevaluate, so you're relentlessly going back and saying, like, is this doing what it was intended to do. If we did that more often, a lot of projects would be more successful and would deliver the results, even though the project may actually end up being a different project than what it started out with. It actually delivers the value.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai