That was the hook, I think, that hooked me for life with doing that.

Hearing music we made, thinking about the imagery going over it, and the actors' names,

and then the title, and the release date at the end.

That whole thing, we envisioned that when we made the song.

Seeing it come to life was just like—that still, to me, is a bigger thrill than any

kind of chart or billboard or thing like that.

That just was never, I'm thankful for those things, but that was never something I was

striving after.

It was really just having music in movies and TV shows has always been my dream.

But that Will Smith trailer was my first, that was the one that I was like, "What is

this world I just stumbled into?"

I never want to leave.

This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best future.

Well, welcome everybody.

It is so good to be with you today.

And before we get started with our conversation,

I wanna ask you a favor.

If you have enjoyed, appreciated, benefited

from Made to Advance, please rate and review us.

That helps us get the word out about our podcast

to more and more people.

And it also helps us bring on more incredible guests

like the one we have today.

Tommy Profit is with me.

And honestly, it is hard to know where to start

with Tommy's accomplishments.

His songs have been featured on every TV network

you've ever heard of.

They've been on all kinds of shows,

including one of my favorites, which is "Steel Team."

He has been on video games.

He's contributed to blockbuster movies.

Have you ever heard of "Hunger Games?"

He's contributed to it.

He's collabed with people like NF, Josh Groban,

and many, many others.

He's been streamed more than 100 billion times.

That's a billion with a B.

I don't even know how many zeros that is, is a lot.

But here's what I love most about Tommy.

No matter how much he's accomplished,

he just comes off like a normal, humble guy

who loves Jesus, who loves his family,

and who is passionate for his work.

And I think that is incredible.

And so Tommy, welcome to Made to Advance.

Geez, well, thanks for the intro.

Man, I'm blushing.

Well, I'll tell you what, when you read your bio,

I mean, it's like, how does one condense that

in a few words, but it's impossible.

No, I appreciate it.

I'm excited to be here and chat.

Yeah.

Here's my curiosity question of the day.

So I know you're a Tesla fan,

and I know you've got a picture on social

of your Cybertruck.

I've seen them around, I've seen them on the road.

I've been close to one.

I was at a Tesla dealership in Chicago

and I kind of did a close look and video.

What's it like to drive that around personally

and what kind of reaction do you get from people?

And you've got it wrapped in like glossy black

to it looks like.

First of all, yeah, black is way better

than the stainless steel version.

I think personally, it looks like a Batmobile.

It does.

I love it so much.

I feel like that product was made for me.

I've always wanted a truck, but I also love Tesla and the technology.

And so when they put it together, I feel like it was like a gift to me personally.

It is funny because people either think it's really cool or just people hate it.

It's like such a polarizing product for some reason.

And every time I go to the store, I have to add like 10 or 15 minutes just because if

people see you getting out or getting in, they'll stop and ask questions. You know what

I mean?

Is that right? Do you see people ever when you're not at the car, do you see people taking

pictures of it?

Yes. They walk around, they're talking, and some people walk away shaking their head like

they're mad that it exists. You know what I mean? Some people will walk by and say to

me like, "Dude, why'd you do that? It's so ugly," right? And I laugh. It's funny to me,

I'm like, it's such a weird thing that like could you imagine going to someone's house and being like bro?

Why'd you buy that couch that yeah, so ugly I would never buy it

Like it's just a weird thing that people for that. They think they just want to hate on it

It's just a weird thing. Do you get people like pointing when you're driving? Can you see that happening?

You see heads turn for sure you had okay. I mean, it's such a different vehicle that you know, right a new thing

So people are curious about it. Yeah

I was hoping that I could say what I'm about to say by the time we had it scheduled.

But just as of a few weeks ago, our band here at Engedi Church has been signed by Capital.

So we were down in Nashville for the signing party a few weeks ago.

And I'm like, "Man, I'm going to be talking with Tommy and we're on."

It was so fun.

I listened to a few different interviews you've done in the past talking about your journey,

and I did not realize how big of a deal that kind of Capital signing was.

It sounds like kind of a turning point for you, but it's really fun.

And we just had that, that took that little step.

That's awesome.

Congrats.

I mean, Capitol is like my family in my music career.

I mean, they're incredible people.

And I feel very lucky that that was like my first experience really into the music industry

and the people that I've known that entire, I mean, for the past at least 10 years.

It's just incredible.

And people say like the old Capitol building, I guess in Nashville was like one of the worst.

now the new Capitol building is one of the dopest.

I mean, you've been-

The coolest ever.

Yeah, you've been, you've seen them both.

Would you kind of say that's the accurate appraisal?

I agree hard, yeah.

I mean, the old space was,

it was very just corporate office building,

like didn't feel creative at all.

And now it's like probably one of the coolest buildings

downtown, I think.

Yeah, we love to be in there.

Well, that's awesome, dude.

Can't wait to see where it goes.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Yeah, we're excited.

Well, I know you've told the story a bunch of times,

But I think it's fantastic just to kind of hear a little bit of your journey.

You came out of West Michigan, which makes it so fun as I'm recording here in West

Michigan to be able to talk to you.

But tell me a little bit about how your journey in music began.

Well, so I grew up on the Detroit side of the state initially, and my parents just

bought me a keyboard when I was like seven or eight for Christmas.

And it was like a last second gift.

There's probably $20 left in the budget, and they're going down the aisles, and they're

like, "Hey, this makes noise.

Kids like toys that make noise."

And so they just grabbed it.

And I don't even remember any other gifts I got the first ten years of my life.

That one stood out, and I just couldn't stop playing it.

I was enamored by it and obsessed with it.

And I would listen to songs that were on TV and try to figure them out and play by ear

and then started writing stuff.

And they were just like, "Wow, he won't stop playing this piano."

And so over the years, we bought bigger keyboards.

That first one was this small.

It was very tiny.

So we just kept buying bigger keyboards.

And I was writing all the time and playing all the time.

They just saw it.

It was never forced.

They didn't ask me, they didn't force me to take piano lessons or anything.

It was just like, I wanted to play, you know?

What did your parents do to build into you then as far as that?

I mean, so originally it's just you just getting after it.

Did your parents end up kind of connecting you with teachers or mentors or any, I

mean, cause, or did you just start writing music and you don't even know how you

just started doing it by yourself?

Yeah.

Like I, they were, they were kind of like, what do we do with this?

And they really encouraged me a lot to, um, like play in the church growing up,

I used to play while they were taking the offering back in the day.

I would play the piano song during that.

They were just really awesome about plugging me into things like that and finding opportunities.

But by the time I was in junior high, I shifted a little bit onto a computer with headphones,

and I was still playing the piano, but it was programming tracks.

My parents never saw me.

I was in the basement and they were like, "We wanted to put your room in the basement,

but if we did, we literally would never see you because you have to at least come up to

get in bed."

And that's the only time they saw me.

So I was making CDs and printing albums and sticker labels and selling them at my school

and my church, cheap, like $2.

Then a couple months later, I would have another one.

I'd sell it for $3.

I was just constantly making music, making albums, and I was just obsessed with it.

And so I did that all the way through to college.

And then I started writing and recording albums more as a worship guy.

And a lot of people don't know that.

That's kind of my background.

And for ten years, I traveled the country with a band, and we played shows.

There's a lot of youth events and conferences and camps, and we did churches and concerts

and all kinds of stuff.

And I just always produced my own music, just because I had to.

And then once I got married—I'm kind of going fast—but once I got married and we

started having kids and I was traveling, that got really difficult.

My kids would cry when I left.

I'm leaving my wife with two kids at the time.

Now we have three.

And so I was like, "This just isn't working.

I wonder what if I built a studio and I started producing other people's music?

Like it didn't dawn on me until way later in life, what if I produced for other people?"

And so that is kind of where things really took off.

It's a crazy story, but the short version is, yeah, we built the studio and in five

days we had like, I had like nine months worth of bookings for the studio.

And so I was like, "Okay, I guess this is my new job."

And I just went full time.

And I didn't promote the studio.

I didn't talk about it.

It was just random things.

People would email me and just say, "Hey, I saw a song on YouTube.

Do you record other people?"

People from different states, they'd fly in.

I was producing records every month for different artists.

Well, and part of why they're reaching out and all that is you had a body of work that

was already getting out there.

So when you had people coming in, have they kind of heard the Tommy Profit approach to

production and go, "Oh, we want some of that?"

Yeah, some people just saw I would do covers on YouTube or something and they just found

them randomly.

Or a friend of a friend heard about me and said, "Hey, you should ask that guy if he

records."

So really early on though, I just built the studio.

I started buying some new sound libraries and getting my stuff together.

And my friend Nate, who's NF, he lives in Michigan.

And he reached out to me one night.

We barely knew each other at the time.

We were like acquaintances.

But he texted me and was like, "Hey, man, I'm passing through Grand Rapids.

You want to hang out tonight?

I'm just, I have a night free."

And I was so busy.

I wanted to say, "Man, I got to finish this album for this guy from South Dakota.

whatever it was, I just can't do it.

But for some reason that night, I was like, "Yeah, I think I could take a night off for

the first time in my life."

So I did.

I was like, "Let's hang out.

Yeah, that sounds fun."

He came over, and just for fun, just hanging out, we made a song.

And that song is what got him signed to Capitol.

And then Capitol was like, "Whoa, what else do you do, Tommy?"

And they signed me as a writer and started producing more stuff.

and that just kind of like,

that changed the trajectory of both of our lives

and it was like just a hangout night,

you know what I mean?

That almost didn't happen.

Yeah, that's so, so great.

So there are two things I wanna hit on in this

because even if people are not, you know,

called to be producers or whatever,

there are two things in your story

that are really important in my opinion on this point.

And they both kind of paved the way

for how you got to where you ended up getting.

One is all the legwork you were doing in the back end

leading up to this point,

which I would love for, you referenced working a lot,

but I want people to be able to understand

the kind of investment that you had been making

in your work at that point.

But then also, and this is, I think, true

for every successful person,

there's also just these providential happenings

and people that maybe are not as much faith.

People are like, "Ah, I just got lucky."

And then people who are more of got a faith orientation

are like, "Man, God just came through in a way

I could have never dreamt up."

Which is exactly what happened that night with you in NF.

So talk to me a little bit about the work

that you had put in leading up to that point

because I know you and Angela

made some really hardcore sacrifices

to ultimately pave that way.

Big time.

I remember there was one moment where,

my wife is like an amazing supporter

over the years of like being a trooper

and like allowing me to work so hard

to make something happen with my music, right?

And just wanting this to happen for me.

But there was a tough time.

I mean, when we got married, we were so poor.

We were doing our laundry in the bathtub

to save quarters at the laundromat.

Like, that's a true story.

And we talk about it.

Like, one night we wanted to go to Taco Bell

and we looked at our budget

and we did not have it in our month's budget

for one meal at Taco Bell.

Like, it was Dave Ramsey, every dollar accounted for,

not one, like, that's what we were doing.

Like, it was really, really rough.

She sewed the holes in my socks

I can keep wearing them. Wow. Get on a budget, everybody. Listen, straight from Tommy Profit

right there. But I was touring and driving around and all the money that was coming in from the band,

whether it was merch or our fee for playing whatever, it was going back into the band

to cover travel and the band and buying more merch. You know what I mean? You have to invest

back into your business. And so, all of this time that was taking me away was not benefiting

like our livelihood at all, you know what I mean? Or like when we were struggling. And

so, it was kind of just a real moment where my wife was like, "Is this like, is it going

somewhere?" She just asked me like, "When is this going to pay off me being home all

weakened by myself and you being super busy, like, where's this going kind of thing, right?

And I remember saying, I promise it's going, it's going to something like it's going to

go somewhere.

I just don't know where yet.

And I didn't know.

And so that was just where we were trusting.

And yeah, but she was so great about that.

And I was working a full time job at a college while also doing all this music stuff and

while struggling.

So it's just like, yeah, it was a lot.

And I had to make sure that my job that I was juggling also didn't fry me.

So when I came home, I had nothing left to give either to my marriage or to my music.

You know what I mean?

Because I think that's what happens a lot of times with especially younger kids today.

They have so much more distraction than we did.

We didn't have iPhones, you know, in college.

They weren't even out yet for me.

Netflix was like mailing DVDs in the mail.

There was no streaming or social media to distract me.

So I feel like that was almost a benefit.

Nowadays there's so much distraction.

People want to get off work and they're not happy at work.

So they come home and they binge Netflix and eat bad and just kind of chill for the night.

And I'm like, those hours where you're just chilling and vegging, those are the hours

where you need to take four hours every single night and pour into your dream, whatever that

is.

And so those are the hours that get people ahead.

And we're just wasting them very, very often, without realizing it, just thinking someday

it'll happen.

And I think what we think when we say that is like, some record executives just going

to walk down the neighborhood sidewalk and knock on every door and just say, "Hey, do

you do music?

Can you play me something?"

That's never gonna happen, right?

We have to actively make things happen.

We have to be proactive.

Even today, you're still putting a lot of time in.

Right, and even today, it sounds like

you're still putting a lot of time in.

Give us a sense for what a normal,

as a married man, three kids,

what's a normal work day look like for you?

I start anywhere between 5 a.m. and 8 a.m.

3 a.m. when I just need more sleep, 5 a.m. when I'm really busy and I need to get ahead.

And I work until—every day I work until 5.30 p.m. but then I shut it off.

I have dinner with my family every night.

I guard nights and weekends.

I don't work on weekends.

I learned very quickly when I moved to Nashville, I'm like, "Oh, people will not guard your

time for you."

You have to guard your time and set up—what does that look like?

Am I a guy that's going to be providing files at 10 p.m. for everyone who wants them?

Am I going to be a guy that's known to work on Saturday whenever someone needs something?

I kind of had to set that boundary early.

And I think most guys in town that I know do that, and people respect that.

But that's what it looks like for me now.

I've locked it into a Monday through Friday, 530 to 530 is my favorite.

Yeah, that's cool.

It's cool to hear that example of having boundaries and just having some rhythms that help you

flourish personally and help you be the husband and dad you want to be.

I'm curious on the early days when Angela was asking you, "Hey, where's this going?"

Are you just the kind of person who naturally has this innate sense of, "Oh, absolutely.

I'm going to make it.

It's going to happen."

Because of course there are many, many stories of folks who moved to Nashville.

They're working hard, they're grinding, they're busking, they're doing all these things and

nothing ever comes of it in the way that it has for you.

Did you ever think, okay, if six months from now

this doesn't get traction, I'm gonna have to,

you know, think about some things,

or was it just like you didn't even allow

that thought in your mind?

I'm the guy that there was no other option

than doing music.

Like, even if I was juggling multiple things,

Like, I had so much passion and drive to do music, I couldn't hang it up and say, "Okay,

I'm just going to work at Walgreens."

I don't know why I said that, but you know, just something like that.

I would always have to create, and that's what I wanted to be doing.

And so, I was just trying to get it to a point where music would pay our bills.

That's the goal.

That's the dream.

It's not to like, climb this ladder and do these things and have all these success benchmarks

Like, that wasn't my goal.

My goal was to just do music, you know what I mean?

And get there.

And it takes just a lot of-

it takes a long time to get there for most of us.

It's 20 years sometimes of grinding from the time

you're a kid, you know what I mean?

And I think people-

how much stamina do you have?

Sometimes people just kind of like get exhausted and they have to give it up for one reason.

And it's really, it comes down to tenacity, you know what I mean?

As far as like, well, are you fried with your job and you want to give up your dream or

do you want to hold on to it and go another eight years if that's what it takes?

You know what I mean?

That's like a daunting thing to think about, like, oh, eight more years of cranking.

once you get there, you'll be so glad you did.

You know what I mean?

That's such a great word,

especially for all those who are listening right now

who are on the front or middle end of a new business,

a new career, or maybe it's not even to that point yet.

Maybe they're a young Tommy with a guitar or a keyboard

or whatever, and they're just hoping at this point.

But I think that's a great word.

I'm curious, when I hear your story,

one of the things I a lot of times will talk about

is I really think a lot of times there are clues

in our youngest days that really point to

where we're supposed to be and what we're supposed to do.

And part of the trick as we get older

is discerning what the clues are pointing to.

And it seems like, based on your love of movies,

love of music, you just started reading the clues

and then a lot of what you're doing now,

based on what I know of your story,

it feels like, man, it was like all in the cards

way back when you were young.

when you think about your kids today,

do you have that mentality of looking for the clues?

I think for some it's easier, you just see,

I mean, clearly you had an undeniable, just crazy passion.

Do you see clues in your kids

at the age they're at right now

that might point towards the future?

Yes, I have.

I mean, both of my sons are very into the piano

and I wanted to make sure I never pushed music or anything.

I'm like encouraging whatever they wanna do.

Because that's the way my parents were, and I think that's why it worked for me.

It's like they didn't push one thing or one sport on me.

You know what I mean?

My son, especially my 10-year-old son Colton, he – I told my wife yesterday, he's like

playing Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata that he just was learning from YouTube on his own.

And he's like, "I think I can do it without looking."

He's looking up and he's playing this like one of the hardest piano pieces ever made.

And for him, he's like, "That's not easy.

You just play the notes that you want to hear."

That's how musicians think or piano players think.

But people who don't have that gift, I'm like, "Buddy, you don't realize most people can't

do what you're doing.

That's crazy."

I told my wife and I was like, "You don't realize what you're watching right now.

This is crazy.

He has just a thing.

The coordination and the mind for it.

So it'll be fun to see where that goes."

I mean, he's into a couple different things.

You can solve a Rubik's Cube in 10 seconds.

You can, you know, he's like very into different things like that.

You know, so magic tricks.

A lot of things that I was into when I was a kid, just something creative and art, you

know, driven.

But yeah, I think, yeah, you're right.

When I was a kid, I was literally producing MIDI on my computer.

And that's what I'm doing now, 30 years later, like in my own house, programming MIDI.

I'm doing the exact same thing.

Yeah, it's cool because as a parent,

you're helping point out,

I think that's the key thing for parents

is when they see something in their kids

that's just a little bit off, but in a good way,

like you're not, this is not entirely normal

to really highlight that to the kids

that they're aware of it and without making it

obviously too big of a deal, but in an unhealthy way,

but it's just cool.

You guys are kind of fanning the flame in that regard

and helping him see that over time.

Here's an idea for you, I'll take credit for this later,

but you don't have to give it,

is I think you need to pull him on the stage

sometime for something.

I'm watching Brandon Lake pull his kids up

and Stephen Malcolm's got his kid on stage

on different videos, and I think people love it so much.

But if, you said his name is Colton, right?

Yeah, Colton.

I think Colton needs to make a guest appearance

playing something at a show,

and yet to be decided show, what do you think?

That's a good idea.

and all three of my kids do ask to come up on stage

and do something. - Oh, do they?

(laughing)

They're ready.

Trying to handle that to professionally be like,

what is the show, what can they do, where does it fit?

And it has to make sense.

I'm curious, you've had so many different placements

in TV shows and movies.

When was the first time you heard one of your songs

or projects you've worked on?

I was gonna say in a major production,

but honestly, it could be a major one or maybe not.

And you were like, oh my goodness,

that's my song on that show, whatever movie, you name it.

I'll tell you, I know exactly like,

well, the first, okay, the first week

that I started TV and film music,

Capitol just randomly offered that to me.

When I got signed to Capitol, they were like,

all right, you do, you know, NF stuff, what about this?

And they put me in different rooms.

What else do you do kind of thing?

And then they said, "Do you want to do a TV and film camp?"

And I, you know, we talked earlier, like I'm very indoorsy.

So I heard the word camp and I was like, "Oh, no, what's that?

I don't want to."

And they're like, "No, you get, you sit inside in a dark studio."

And they said, "And you make music for movie trailers."

And when that, I'm, John, his name was John, the guy said, "I'll never forget that moment."

I was like, "Yeah, I want to do that."

He had no clue that my background was listening to trailer music in my car as a high school

student.

That's what I listened to for entertainment.

It was trailer music, not even movie soundtracks, but the actual trailer music is what I loved

listening to when I was by myself.

And no one, I've never met anyone else that I'm trying, I'm trying to find someone else.

It's like me too.

And I'm always waiting for that response and never gotten it.

Everyone's like, that's weird.

But anyways, I just never thought that would open up to me.

And so that first week, I worked with two people, Sam Tannes is the guy's name, and

Flurry is the artist.

And those two songs placed super quick.

The song I did with Sam was in a three-month ABC promo for a new show, and it was on TV

during the NBA Finals, and it was very surreal.

But then the song I did with Flurry was in a Will Smith trailer for that movie Concussion.

Do you remember that movie?

And I found out about it the day the trailer came out.

I got like an hour before they said, "Hey, your song is in a trailer for Concussion."

And they sent me the link an hour later.

And I sat in my living room on my couch and watched it on my phone.

And I just remember full-body chills of like, that was the hook, I think, that hooked me

for life with doing that.

It was like hearing music we made, thinking about the imagery going over it and the actors'

names and then the title and the release date at the end.

You know, that whole thing.

We envisioned that when we made the song.

And so seeing it come to life was just like, that still to me is like a bigger thrill than

any kind of like chart or billboard or thing like that.

Like that just was never, I'm thankful for those things, but that was never something I was striving after.

It was really the, just having music in movies and TV shows was like, has always been my dream.

That Will Smith trailer was my first, that was the one that like,

I was like, what is this world I just stumbled into?

Ah, so beautiful.

Never want to leave, you know?

And when you, so that's obviously a massive

like kind of life highlight moment

and just this is, I'm doing exactly what I was made for.

Have you had professional highlights

that exceed that since then?

Or is that one of those that it's like, you know what?

I just will never experience that first time experience

again in a way that can match what I felt in that moment?

That's a good question.

There's been other highlights like that along the way.

I don't know that something really eclipsed it.

I think to the industry's eyes,

there are way better highlights

from an outward perspective.

For sure, yeah.

And again, it's weird.

I feel kind of numb to those things.

I'm thankful for them,

but it's usually when I'm producing for somebody else

or it's their artist project and I'm a part of it or a song.

But something about making this movie music, I still think that to me is my favorite thing.

We got the song in the Creed III trailer.

It was the last year with Michael Jordan.

I heard it and loved it.

And that trailer was one of my favorite trailers of all the placements, I would say.

So you mentioned this, we should have talked about this.

SEAL Team is like mine and my wife's favorite show

of all time.

Oh, is that right?

We own all the seasons and have watched them all three.

Well, it's so hard to find great shows

that are not like nasty

and or have other kinds of elements

that we're not looking to watch.

So we've got like three different sitcoms

that we own all of the seasons

and have like watched them on repeat for literally years.

SEAL Team are three times through.

So when I saw you guys do that, I'm like, oh my gosh,

That's so cool.

And you know what?

I think it was a trailer during the first season

of SEAL Team, and it was before I even watched it.

I think it would have been cooler if it was like,

now it's like our show and if I had a song in it.

Yeah.

I'm like, sweet, next week's episode promo,

you know, they use my song or something like that.

But yeah, it was kind of before

I really knew about the show.

You watched the season finale and the whole,

this last season, it just wrapped up, I'm guessing?

I haven't watched this latest season yet.

Okay, so we've got 10 episodes and it's all over after these 10.

I just watched the 10th, which was released last Sunday.

Yeah.

And, and the whole time I'm like, how are they going to land the plane on this

thing?

And then I think they did it in a pretty beautiful way and I will tell you nothing

about it because I want it.

I want, I want it to just be a surprise.

Let me, let me, let me nerd out on a couple of just random creative things

that are pure curiosity.

My first keyboard was the Yamaha DX7.

And I remember just like having the sounds and all that

and then I'd get these little cartridges,

I would plug into it and it'd give me more sounds

and all that.

But you, the sounds you have,

I mean, it's gotta just be endless.

Here's my naive question.

You're writing trailers, you're writing cinematic music,

it's a very special niche.

Do you always feel like I've got, as a writer,

you're like, I've always got more creative room

to grow, to go.

I mean, it just, you know, it feels like on the one hand,

it feels like a pretty tight lane to run in.

And yeah, I mean, it's nice you've got your solo projects

maybe to do some other stuff,

but or do you just feel like, you know what,

I still can just exercise incredible creativity

even within that lane of trailers?

Yeah, because I mean, I think a lot of people think,

and it feels like when people think of me and my music,

they think trailer music, big, epic cinematic stuff,

which I do a lot of, but I don't just,

I think some people might not be fully aware, it's not just trailer music.

I do a lot of that.

I like doing that.

But sometimes I just do songs that has trailer type production in it or movie score production

in it.

Sometimes I'll do a piano string ballad that gets dynamic and flows, but it's not like

big hits and Brahms and Wusch hits.

It's not like trailer epic.

Sometimes it's beautiful, sometimes it's dark, sometimes it's hip-hop, sometimes it's a song

that is motivating for like UFC or ESPN, some placement like that.

Or it's in some crime drama and it's a sad song.

So I think that is what helps me stay creative.

If I was only doing one thing, only doing trailer tracks, like traditional three-act

trailer tracks, I think I would probably get bored and, you know, it'd feel a little,

it'd get old really quickly. Yeah. Do you have a preference between those two types of work?

Like kind of the non-trailers or is it just kind of whatever? Yeah, I think I just like making

emotional and dynamic and dramatic music. And so there's lots to play within there. And if I'm

If I'm feeling somber one day, I'll go that direction.

If I'm feeling like I want this thing to just hit so hard and I come up with some crazy

beat thing that has a thing on it, I think it's just creating whatever.

It still fits under my bucket because it has either orchestra or piano in it.

It's still the same musician making it, so it has a thread, even though the vocals over

it are usually different artists that are featuring, you know?

So yeah, sometimes it's covers, sometimes it's original songs, sometimes it's instrumental.

I'm starting to do some more like concept records, you know?

I did that Christmas album, like that was super fun.

It feels cinematic, but it doesn't all feel like trailer Christmas, you know what I mean?

When's the last time you worked on a project that you felt like, "Wow, this is truly stretching

Like it's taking me to a different place than I've been creatively or with instrumentation

or something like that.

Uh, this year I made something that's not out yet and I feel like it's going to, it's

my favorite project to date that I've ever worked on.

Wow.

Obviously you probably can't talk fully about it judging by the ambiguity, but what makes

it, what makes it that way?

Why are you excited about it?

I got with one of my buddies and we made a concept record from scratch.

And I think what was so fun about it is we got together and we wanted to do a project

together, but we didn't know what it was going to be when he came over the first day.

We just booked two weeks and said, "Let's make something."

And that can be scary, obviously, if you don't have direction.

But within an hour, we had the album title, 12 song titles, we had art going on mid-journey

just for inspiration, like just ideas and it like flew out of us faster than we could keep up.

And it's way different sound. Got to explore different sound libraries. You were talking

about that earlier. Yeah. I explored different ones than I usually get to use. And it's such

a unique creative thing for both of us that it was just, it just gave us new life. You know what I

mean? So. Yeah, that's cool. That's really fun. It's like stuff that will work for TV and film,

but it feels more like an album for streaming.

And we have a lot of features on it.

Crazy.

We got some, it's just the way it all like ended up folding together is just crazy.

So.

Tell our, tell our listeners what define what you would say is a concept album for

those who would not be familiar with that terminology.

I think it's taking a, um, a theme, whether it's a sound or a theme or an idea or a

a topic, I would say, and doing a whole body of work around it.

So the Christmas album I did was called The Birth of a King, and it was all about that.

I did a project in the past called Gloria Regali, and it sounds like Game of Thrones

music, but it's all like regal castle snow dragons, swords, that whole vibe all in one.

It sounds like that.

And so, it's more of like a, I don't know, a themed record versus, I don't know, just

an album of music and songs.

You know what I mean?

Do we have a release date yet or not?

2025.

I think we're gonna start releasing songs in January.

Come on.

Going until probably, I think, April.

Oh, I love that.

Well, let's talk a little bit about your faith.

Tell me, like, for you, I know you grew up in a family where, at least it's my understanding,

both of your parents followed Jesus, and so that was kind of your atmosphere.

How did faith become real to you?

Was that something that right from the jump when you were young, you were like, "Yeah,

I follow Jesus," and what was your journey like?

Man, I really think my parents did all the right things of planting seeds early on, even

when I didn't get it, like fully.

I mentioned earlier that my parents would ask me to play in church during the offering

and stuff, right?

They're like, "You got to use your gift for God."

And I was like, "I don't get that.

How is that using it for God?"

I didn't even understand that concept.

But they were just kind of implementing things.

I was very involved in my youth group and playing the music for the youth group, and

we went on a lot of mission trips.

And I truly think that it was the mission trips that made my relationship with God real

in my own.

You know what I mean?

the mission trips? What connected? Was it just being in a different environment or seeing?

Yeah. How did that connect in a unique way? I think, I don't know, man. I think just

serving, I think it's really important as humans that we just, we get out of our own story for

a second, right? And like, think about other people. Like we can get so, especially now,

man, on our phones and social media, it's like everyone has their own platform in their world,

And they're building this thing.

And it's just, it's exhausting.

I think if everyone were honest, we'd all say, it's just exhausting to do that.

Like to turn everything off and go somewhere where there's people in need

that don't even think about those things or care about those things.

And they just like, they're struggling, whether it's working on their homes or

doing a, a childcare thing or whatever it is, you know, there's lots of different

different things, talking to people on the street.

You just kind of get to see where people are at.

There's a lot of humanity in it.

And seeing how God works through that, that was just really awesome and eye-opening.

And then through those times, too, lots of prayer.

And I think prayer is the single thing that makes your relationship with God real and

personal, I think.

And so I kind of developed my,

I feel like I developed my personal prayer life

during those years.

Wow.

Just going on these trips and just seeing God work

in crazy ways.

So that I would say when I was about 15 or 16 years old,

there was a big pivot for me, like a shift.

Yeah, that's really cool.

When you think about now having the level of demand

and responsibility you have on your time professionally,

and then obviously being married

and having three younger kids,

what does it look like for you

to nurture your relationship with God these days?

How do you do that?

Are there specific disciplines or habits?

Or what, yeah, I mean, part of it,

you've already mentioned, you've taken the weekend,

and I'm guessing it's kind of a Sabbath-y idea of,

hey, I'm gonna make some space

to really enjoy life and family and God.

But yeah, what do you do to kind of nurture

your own relationship with God with the low gender?

I think being in a constant prayer state

It's just something I developed in college, even post high school and mission trip days,

like all day long, just realizing there's a connection there and you can't lose it,

like cell phone connection.

It's just always strong and always on and always there.

It doesn't have to be a—it's good to have set times, but I'm saying it doesn't

always only work if you have a time where you sat down and you got your coffee and there's

There's a Bible sitting next to you and the lights are off and no one distracts you and

you close your eyes and there's a dedicated—there's no formality that makes it more powerful,

right?

It's just like a relationship.

And so for me, that's one major thing is that constant prayer state.

And then also, I had a mentor of mine too who encouraged me early on.

I was going out and doing all this worship ministry, and in my head, I was like, "This

is important.

This is a ministry.

This is like these kids from these youth groups or these churches, these people, these hurting

people."

I would talk a lot on stage and share things and pray with people.

It was just kind of like a ministry.

He pointed something out to me, this was probably in my 20s, and he was like, "Your family,

at some point you'll realize like your family is your number one ministry.

And your three kids, being home and pouring into them and how you do that is arguably

way more important than trying to reach thousands from a stage where sometimes you don't have

any personal interaction, you're just saying something, you know what I mean?

But he said something cool.

He's like, "You know, if you're not there, someone else is going to be there doing that."

Like that's not an irreplaceable thing.

You might have your own unique spin on it, so will the other person or whatever.

But being at home with your kids, like how you, like, you're going to go from basically

the masses to the 12 disciples type vibe, right?

Where it's like a couple people in your life that are close to you, your wife, your kids,

like the people you pour into,

you can't just give all of yourself to thousands of people.

You just, Jesus didn't do that.

You know what I mean?

Well, it's like, you think of a big project,

let's say it's you write the trailer for "Creed 3."

That's fantastic, it's a great accomplishment.

If you hadn't written that song,

they would have found somebody else that they could use.

And at the end of the day,

your kids are not going to find another father.

I mean, you're the guy.

And so it's cool to hear.

That's a good word to many of us.

Many of us who are passionate, I mean,

we're blessed, you're blessed if you're passionate

about your work and you're able to do what you're doing.

And I feel the same way, I feel like that's a huge gift,

but the sort of the other side of it is

that you can't let your work kind of suck you

in such a hole that all of a sudden

that starts to overshadow or push out to the margins

other important priorities in your life.

And it's cool that you have that perspective

that you do in that regard.

I'm curious, when you think about how God

and how faith has affected your work or your career.

We've talked about already,

you worked your butt off starting from early on,

you made sacrifices.

I've heard you talk about when other people

were out goofing around, hanging out,

you're grinding, you're working when you were younger.

And so all of that's the case.

We always wanna talk about that huge value of hard work,

but where do you go?

Man, these are some places that God just showed up

along the way in my career journey.

Obviously one of them is with the night with NF,

but any place else come to mind?

Yeah, I mean, I brushed through this earlier

knowing we'd probably come back to it,

but you know, I mentioned I used to travel a lot

and then I started having kids and it was hard.

And I remember there was a moment where I was like,

I had these options in front of me

and I was like, I could either just go dedicate full time

to the road, bring my family with me, and that's my thing.

I could settle at a church and do church ministry, which I was asked by a couple churches right

where we lived.

Or I could—I don't remember them all, but then the last one too was like, "Or I could

try to build a studio and produce for other people."

And I had this choice in front of me, and I know it's like, "Man, they're all music."

So I'm so thankful that they're all music choices.

There wasn't one that was like, "Or you could get this desk job that you would hate."

It was all like, "Music here, here, or here."

And I remember praying.

I remember where I was, dude.

I was in Grand Rapids.

I was on Kalamazoo and 60th.

There's an intersection there.

I was stopped at a red light and I said, "God, I appreciate the options, but I said this.

I was like, 'I'm so bad at decisions.

I can't even decide what I want when I go out to eat.

How am I supposed to make a life-altering decision that affects just other people too?

My band, my family.

So I said, "Will you choose for me somehow?

You know all of the paths, all of the outcomes for whatever is chosen."

And I really believe that he would let me choose any of them and he would have blessed

whatever.

But I was like, choose the best one that is best for my family and for everyone involved.

Because you see things I can't.

And I got home that day, like from that drive, like 10 minutes later.

And my wife, it's crazy how God can use wives like this.

She pulled up this, we had just moved into our first house.

Remember, we were like super poor.

Right.

first house nine months prior to this. Moving was not on our minds at all. She pulled up

this listing and she goes, "Look at this house I found. It's down the road and it's

foreclosed and it's this price and there's a basement. And I was thinking you could build

a studio in the basement and like start producing for people and we could like move here."

And I was like, "This is so weird." I was like, I just prayed about this on the way

And so I was like, well, let's look into it.

Fast forward three months later, we moved into that house and built that studio.

And then God just blessed that.

And remember I said like five days or like all these bookings for people who want to

record and like that was a God thing because I didn't even try to get bookings for

the studio and tell people I was even building it.

And then the NF thing and then the Capitol thing and it all just like flowed.

It felt like that was a very linchpin moment in my story.

Yeah.

That I haven't even shared that often, but it was so clearly like when me and my wife

were just aligned and she brought that to me, it was almost like he used her to show

us a direction.

And it was, dude, and then it's like, well, now you get to work at home and be around

with your family more.

and they were happy about that.

And I was doing what I,

I realized that was my first love, producing,

was by far my favorite thing than being on the road.

You know what I mean?

So it was just a good thing.

It worked out for everybody,

and I see that that was absolutely the right decision.

Man did God know what he was doing

when he brought your wife into your life.

(laughing)

You have the right lady for the job, man.

That is amazing.

Sometimes I think about like, I mean,

my wife and I just are so head over heels in love

after 27 years.

And I think about like how old you are

when you first are building your relationship

with your spouse and what leads you together and all that.

I'm like, we were so ignorant and so dumb

and God was so brilliant in putting us together

because it's like just the right match for what we need.

And I hear you guys' story and I'm like,

even prior to any of the breaks and all that,

Like the first big break was her.

(laughing)

I mean, that's amazing.

Yeah.

It really was.

And honestly, that was the thing that allowed me to,

that was the moment I started doing music full-time

for the first time.

'Cause when I did the band

and I was doing all this other stuff,

I still had these other jobs

and working at the college and like juggling.

And that was also the thing that allowed me to,

for the first time, provide for us from music.

And it's crazy, dude, when you kind of let go and just let God drive.

It feels like you're in a traffic jam, and you're sitting in front of the steering wheel,

and you're like, "There's no possible way."

And God's like, "Can I drive?"

You're like, "Okay."

And you let go, and you get in the passenger seat.

And He finds some crazy path on the sidewalk over here that you didn't even think about.

And He just starts going 80 miles an hour on the sidewalk, and you're looking out the

window with your jaw open and you're like, "I could never have done this. I

never would have planned this, thought of this." Like it truly is a thing when you

let go and just kind of let God kind of take control and you just say, "I want to

be a good steward wherever you want me to be." Like the way he blesses that is

like crazy, you know? Yeah, you know it's funny you're talking because that on

the one hand I like to let go and let God can sound like a cliche but that

when you were talking about it, just even before you use that phrase, when you're talking

about saying, God, listen, I've got these options.

I just want whatever you want.

I really would love this to be best for my family.

I want to be faithful to you.

You make, I mean, there's just like a release of saying, I'm not the one trying to be in

control, driving it, making it happen, forcing it, getting mine, you know, all that.

And that's a big, big deal.

And I think some folks who are listening right now are like, you know, maybe I'm clinging

a little too tightly to the steering wheel of my life, and I've just got to have some

more trust in that regard.

I think that's really, really cool.

Let's talk about the Christmas Project.

So I'm gonna give you my story of "Birth of a King."

I didn't hear the album when it first came out, and I know this is like a passion project

for you.

I've heard you talk about it was years in the making, and so then the album comes out,

but then last year, you do it live, okay?

And I would like to put myself in the category of early adopters of the live, like on YouTube

experience, because I know it's got north of like a million three views now or something.

And it did not have near, it was like in the maybe couple hundred thousands when I came

across it.

So that I'm putting myself early adopter for that reason in the first 200,000 people.

And so I'm on the treadmill.

I don't know how I came across it.

I'm on the treadmill.

And I'm starting to think about Christmas. And as a pastor, you do kind of Christmas every year,

and you figure out, "Okay, how are we gonna keep it fresh?" And all that with also telling the same

story that's an incredible story. And I'm on the treadmill and I'm like, "I need some inspiration

here. I know just the right thing here. I saw something about 'Birth of a King.'" So I put on

the broadcast, the recording of it, and I'm starting to watch it. And I'm on the treadmill,

and I kid you not, I'm weeping watching this go down. I'm like trying to catch my breath and cry,

and I'm like, "I've got a towel I keep by there for sweating," and I'm like wiping the tears away.

It was... And I'm not saying this to be funny or to whatever, but I mean,

watching that, which I've now watched it multiple times over, is easily one of the most powerful

Christmas experiences of Jesus. Not just like, "Oh, that was great art." It was great art, but

just the spiritual experience of remembering

what we're celebrating.

Oh my gosh, I just, I started texting everybody I knew,

you've got to watch this, you've got to watch this.

So just incredible.

And I just, I guess I wanted to say that

because as you're making these things

and I know it was incredible for you,

but you don't get to hear just like I don't,

my job get to hear all the stories on the backend.

And it totally affected how I thought about Christmas

that year and I watched it the other day on the treadmill

'cause I thought I'm gonna be talking to Tom,

I started crying again, man.

I'm like, "Come on, I've been down this road."

So tell me what's coming up.

Maybe you want to reflect a little bit on last year and then tell me you've got something

coming up again.

I'm very curious to hear about that and if it's the same or different or what.

But yeah, just talk to me about Birth of a King.

Amazing.

Well, dude, thank you.

That means a lot, seriously.

Like the way God has used that project is far beyond how I ever thought.

I thought, "Man, if one person, one kid somewhere finds this album and makes it a

part of his playlist every year or her playlist every Christmas with their headphones on."

That was kind of initially how I approached making a Christmas album.

And then it just completely shifted into this other thing.

And I felt like it went in a different direction than I planned on it going, but I didn't fight

it.

I just felt like this is really where it was supposed to go.

How so?

What shifted?

I didn't know when I started it.

I knew kind of what I wanted to do, but I thought it would be more of like a darker

Christmas.

Like, you know, I do trailer music.

Tim Burton Christmas?

Yeah, I guess you could say that.

But then very quickly, it was like, the powerful message of like, there was stuff from my worship

roots coming out.

And I was like, "Oh, I don't do worship anymore.

Would this be weird?"

You know what I mean?

I felt like God was with me.

I know it sounds so stupid, you could just say things like that, but I really felt like

we were making this album together.

It kept going in this direction.

I remember just being like, "I'm not going to fight this.

This is the most powerful story ever.

You just said it."

Sometimes the manger scene can feel very VBS, like Sunday school.

The truth is, the powerful story of a king coming to save the world and being greeted

by angels, that doesn't sound like a small Sunday School thing.

That sounds like the biggest epic movie synopsis of all time.

And I put on the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

I have this big TV up here.

I just put the Lord of the Rings trilogy on mute while I was making the album for six

months just for grand epic visuals.

You know what I mean?

for inspiration, I guess, needs to feel like that.

Like epic Bethlehem, you know what I mean?

Like modern movie kind of vibe.

And so, yeah, dude, the way all the artists came together

and then doing it live was just something

I never thought would happen.

And it kind of was like, all right,

let's just entertain it just to get the idea off my mind.

Let's just start planning a live show

and just see what kind of roadblocks we hit.

And we literally just didn't hit one.

It just kind of came together in a way where I was like, "Well, shoot, does this mean

we actually have to do it now?"

Like, shoot, we just planned the whole thing.

And so, yeah, dude, I was worried about selling tickets, because that's not something that

I am ever a part of, is like doing ticketed events.

There's just all kinds of things.

And I just felt like the whole time, it was like something like didn't make sense on paper,

but like God wanted me to do this.

And the way that he's reaching people through a Christmas album is just so cool, you know

what I mean?

Like, people are sending me messages crying in bed at night listening about how God talked

to them.

Yeah.

And it's a Christmas album.

Like, you don't expect, like, you know, that from a Christmas–like, Jolly, Holly Jolly

festival.

That's the thing.

Yeah, Christmas is like, I put it on while I'm cooking or whatever, and it's just

It's more like it's wallpaper kind of music.

It's atmospheric, it's nice, it's when I'm shopping, it's whatever.

And not that you can't listen to your album while you're cooking, you surely can, but

it's more of like a spiritual experience.

I mean, I love what you said about your worship roots coming out, because that's what it feels

like.

It doesn't feel like, "Oh, this was just some nice songs," you know?

It feels like we're going there.

Yeah, and so it kind of bridges the gap between like the 22 year old video gamer that listens to some of my music

And then you know I have a mother-in-law who owns a furniture shop in Michigan

And she sells Amish furniture like I wanted her to be able to play it in her store

While this other gamer could also enjoy it. What does that look like you know what would that be and so?

Yeah, anyways yeah

Yeah, it was a long time coming project that I dreamed of for 15 years and doing it live

was just like the best.

I'm still shocked that it happened.

So we're doing year three this year at the Opry, again, Grand Ole Opry.

So have there been three lives you're saying?

I thought last year what I watched was the first live.

So I put, we filmed and recorded it when we did it live the first time.

And then we took a year, we had to edit it and mix it and work on it.

So a year later, that came out.

That came out last year.

But then we did the live show at the Opry last year.

We didn't film and record it every year though.

There's only one live album to kind of show what the concert is and then we're going to

do the live show without filming and recording it in future years.

Gotcha.

So you've got one coming up this year, which I've been on, looking for tickets.

And you can really have luck if you're willing to sit by yourself.

I mean, not by yourself, the room is so full.

There's single tickets available here and there in random locations.

But it's going to be a great treat for anybody.

Anything different year to year?

Or is it like, you know, there's still some seats out there, but is it pretty consistent

from year to year?

Yeah, we're doing a couple, I mean, little things.

Some people are coming every year, which is awesome.

It's like making it their annual tradition.

But yeah, we're gonna add a couple things, switch out a few.

From year to year, a couple of artists will swap out and change just based on availability.

I have one new song thing that I'm gonna maybe try this year.

And then we're kind of already dreaming of a few crazy things for next year.

So I'll tell you about that soon.

I'll tell you what, I watched it and I thought with the level of instrumental production

on this thing, I felt like from a visual side of the room, and I know there's always limitations,

but man, you can't watch that and think, "My goodness, what would the potential would be

with some serious LED in the room and who knows what?"

Yeah, we're thinking of some of that stuff.

Yeah, that's fun.

Yeah, man, just keeping it to what it is, like, it's just, I really feel like, I just

I just feel like it's something I'm so thankful and humbled that God is doing this thing.

And I don't know what it is.

I never really thought we'd be doing this annual Christmas show and the way the album

is starting to really spread.

It's another one of those situations where I'm just kind of giving it to him.

I'm like, "All right, we'll do it as long as you keep opening these doors."

I'm kind of wanting to always make sure that I'm never grabbing the reins of this project

'cause I never really had 'em in the first place.

That's good.

Let me ask you, just land on one final question here.

You've done so many great things,

been able to be part of incredible projects,

collab with incredible people, all the things.

How do you keep yourself just grounded?

I don't know if maybe you're just so wired as just,

"Hey, I'm just Tommy doing my thing,"

but I don't know if you're ever tempted to think,

"Hey, this is kind of a big deal."

Is it hard ever?

Do you have to do anything to make sure

you stay rooted and normal and human in the midst of all the success?

I think I genuinely am so excited and thankful that I get to do music.

You know, we talk a lot about the long process of working your butt off and just the fact

that I get to do it, I'm so thankful.

And every trailer is still exciting to me.

Every TV show, every concert, every artist I get to work with, I'm genuinely just so

thankful.

I talked to this guy one time, my really good buddy Daniel.

First time I met him, he's an artist, Daniel St. Black.

He's on the Christmas show, actually, Christmas record.

The first time I met him, he said, "The way I approach life is entitled to nothing, grateful

for everything."

And I'm like, "Man, if you live each day like that, it really is like there is so much to

be grateful for."

And you're not expecting something, you don't think something should happen.

The minute you think like, "I'm doing something," you're going to control it.

And when it starts falling apart, people are going to lose their minds.

It's just not healthy.

I think that's just, I don't know, that was just instilled in me probably early on.

I genuinely am so happy to get to do what I do.

How could I, I don't know, complain or take credit for it?

You know those God stories we talked about, those moments, whether it was my wife or Nate

and all the capital, all that stuff.

I know that God put those things together, and I know that God could take them away just

as quickly and easily.

You know what I mean?

And so I'm just, I don't know, I'm just kind of enjoying it and thanking him every day

and continuing to ask him what I do next, you know, and how to handle all of that, you

know?

Well, that's a great word to end on.

I think that it's really, really exciting to see you being blessed and experiencing

all the good things that you're experiencing.

And I know it comes with a ton of work, but it sounds to me what you're saying is the

the way you keep yourself in a really good healthy place

is just saying, I'm gonna stay humble,

I'm gonna stay grateful, I'm gonna stay thankful.

'Cause when your heart's in all those postures,

like ultimately, and again, not to be cliche

or whatever about it, but ultimately,

you're kind of just, you're looking upwards,

it sounds like all the time, unlike thank you, Lord,

and you're not like, you know, getting consumed with self

and what you're doing next and what ought to come to you

and what you want to come to you.

So I think that's a great posture of heart to be in

a great word to anybody who's listening right now.

I love for people to experience success.

And sometimes people think,

oh, when I experience great things,

then my life's just gonna all come together.

And the reality is, as a friend of mine likes to say,

different levels, different devils.

Maybe you've heard that phrase.

And I just think we gotta figure out new ways to,

new opportunities and new levels of success,

sometimes just bring on some new ways that we need to grow.

So I love your example.

Thanks for continuing to do great work.

Thanks for being my number one workout partner

when I'm listening to your solo projects.

I have never lifted so much weight

as when I've got a Tommy song in my ears.

So appreciate you tons, Tommy,

and look forward to the Christmas season

and can't wait to listen to some

of your future work coming out.

Yeah, dude, thanks so much.

Appreciate it.

Woo-hoo!

That was a great conversation.

Wow.

one of my favorites since we've been having

all these incredible conversations on Made to Advance.

And it is hard to know where to start on that conversation

that we just had with Tommy Prophet.

But I'm just gonna say this,

I love Tommy's example on two fronts.

The man knows how to work, all right?

He knows how to put in the hours,

but he also walks with this deep abiding trust

and submission to God.

And I told our staff last year, I use this old phrase,

Pray like it all depends on God

and work like it all depends on you.

And it's funny, I got done with that conversation

and I thought Tommy is doing just that.

I mean, he is working like it all depends on him.

He is getting after it, friends.

But he's also in this state, he said it,

he's in this state of continual prayer.

And you might hear that and think,

what's that even look like?

And I can tell you, after years of growth in prayer,

more and more, I just can live in this rhythm

where I'm talking to God throughout my day.

Some of you are already there,

Some of you, you're gonna get there,

but work like it all depends on you

and pray like it all depends on God.

I love that example of just full on

the old church-worthy consecration.

Lord, whatever you want,

you're gonna help me get there and I can trust you.

So if you enjoy this podcast,

if you enjoy this conversation,

please do rate and review us.

That helps us get the word out.

And also it helps us get more great guests on like Tommy.

It's been a production of Engedi Church.

We've got more incredible conversations on the way.

And so until next time, know you were made to advance.