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Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello and welcome to
another episode of page 94.

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My name's

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Andrew Hunter Murray, and
I'm here in the I studio with

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Helen Lewis, Adam Macqueen
and Jane Mackenzie.

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We're here to discuss all
sorts of things that have been

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going on.

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Been quite a busy news summer
so far, haven't entered the

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doldrums yet, which is thrilling.

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so first of all, I think we should come to
one of the big stories and the one which

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is on the cover of the
latest, issue of the mag.

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How could Nigel Farage have possibly seen

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this coming, that this
might be a problem for him?

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Helen: I wanna start off by saying, how
could Ian possibly have seen this coming?

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that cover went to press on the Monday?

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Yes.

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And then the story, his big,
everyone was wronged me.

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Speech was on the Tuesday,
I'm running the boat action

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Adam: 2:00 PM exactly the
same time as the Prince Harry

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judgement , which we'll be talking about
a bit later on came through, it was just

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Andy: like a, news mageddon
the day after we went to press.

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I did see the Ferra

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speech of

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him having acei fish and
saying, I'm standing down And

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I'm, but I'm coming back, and all of this.

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And I thought, oh, that's such a shame.

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'cause I hadn't seen the cove yet of
the mag and I assumed they would've gone

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with something else.

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Helen: No, but we got some cracking night.

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Where's your lolly from, Joe?

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It is fake.

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Was it fake?

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I wanna say if it's fake

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ice cream, but that's
not a pun on fake news.

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Andy: fake

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news.

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Helen: Fake news.

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There we go.

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you watch that speech live?

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I did, because I've got
problems in my life, apparently.

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Okay.

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But it was fascinating because it seemed
to me a genuinely emotional outburst.

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he first of all wanted to take on
the fact that people said, people

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have been saying, I've been looking
Ill very recently, I'm fine.

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I'm absolutely fine.

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And then he seemed genuinely, personally,
very upset about the idea that

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reporters had been to his daughter's

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house, which was later explained was
the house he was registered to vote

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at the last election, and trying
to put the, allegations to him.

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But it was a, it was

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an extremely personal outburst.

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It didn't seem

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actually particularly strategic,
although everybody immediately tried

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to portray it that way.

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Adam: He's definitely taken this
to heart as there's none of the

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sort of bond on me or anything.

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It was a couple of days before when he was
approached by a sky news reporter at an

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airport, and he was absolutely Furious.

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He could came back for another
go as well and said, do you

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keep away from our family?

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So they pointed out they hadn't
approached any of his family.

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None of his family were there at the time.

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He was there with the
loaded gun reform guys.

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But yeah, he does, he's definitely
taken this one to heart,

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hasn't he?

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Andy: but this's the thing, there's a very

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angry tone about, or

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if I, dunno if I was at the top of the
polls and I had been for a year and still

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was, I think even after all this,
I would try to keep it light.

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But it seems like asking
questions is gonna get you in

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big trouble in Farage's Britain.

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Helen: it, immediately after it was
announced that none of the other

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parties were gonna run against
him, which is not without Preston.

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The one that people talk about is the
David Davies, resigned from Halton

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Price and Howden and ran a sort of.

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Civil liberties and then everyone went.

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Okay, thank You David, we'll let
you have your moment to talk about

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this, this is for you, not for us.

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And one of the ones I was particularly
interested is that Restore the much

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further right party from Rupert Lowe.

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They're not running, even
though it would've been a

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freebie media hits for them.

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They said, this is the Nigel Farra Circus.

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So despite a valiant rear guard attempt
to say, all the other parties are

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looking down on us, it's the uni party.

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No one cares.

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Actually, pretty much everybody
across the political spectrum thought,

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let's let Nigel have this one.

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Lawrence Fox.

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Adam: Fox is in there, isn't it?

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He's got it.

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He thought I might pick up a few
verse as is the guy who dressed up

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as a fox, so it'll be a two fox rose.

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Oh, great.

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Yeah,

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Helen: No fox given,

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Andy: I think the very
funny element of the

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move is that Farage clearly thought,
we're gonna have a, we're gonna have

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a bi-election, they'll all be standing
against me or the other parties.

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We'll be able to move the conversation on.

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There'll be all sorts of things we
can bring up, whether it's immigration

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or whether it's crime or whatever.

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And now finding himself completely
alone in the race, he is, managed to

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find a magnifying glass on him and
the 5 million quid he's been given and

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the million pounds from the mother of
the convicted rules to George Trell,

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Helen: the

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Andy: retired stylists who's Yes.

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Ti retired stylist.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I now

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Helen: investigation from by the police
over the source of that donation, unknown

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Andy: more regime investigations,

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Helen: I thought, he's done this
in order to do a kind of like

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Trump's second election victory.

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Which is to say, look,
obviously the voters don't care.

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I've, gone to the court of public opinion
about my donations and, they don't care.

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This is just an establishment stitch up.

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however this plays out, I think he's been
deprived of that ability to say, this is a

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ringing endorsement that they like me, not
you, because the choice isn't really there

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Andy: because they're like me or BIM face.

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Helen: yeah.

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Being

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Adam: liked more than Lawrence Fox.

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It's not that much of achievement.

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Andy: we should come on to BIM face.

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So Declaration of Interest,
I've, certainly met several

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times with Ben on and off.

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Helen: I see what you've done there.

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I've been on Camp Bi Faces podcast.

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Andy: Have you?

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Helen: Yes.

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Andy: Wow.

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Helen: Which is quite difficult because
I, to be honest with you, I went on

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it without having researched the law.

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So he started going on about
which planet he was from and

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I was like, I'm sorry, what?

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Oh,

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Andy: the law.

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The

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Helen: law Don't, Lord the Rings
law, there's a whole very well

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filled out backstory for Ben Face.

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Okay.

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I think that regardless of your
feelings about joke candidates,

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and I'm generally pro them 'cause
they're to the gaity of the Nation.

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It was very funny to see that
all the people in reform have

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basically only one setting, which
is the establishment is against us.

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And seeing whichever one it
was who said who funds you was,

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this like a with a deep state

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Andy: hate for you paid for this bin here.

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Yeah.

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Helen: And then I think the, ability
to, it's as you say that one of the

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things that's been difficult for Farage
here is that he's usually coasted by,

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on this series of not taking things
too seriously is a happy warrior.

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Things don't get to him.

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And when you're suddenly Furious about
a joke candidate, that looks petty and

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small, whereas also been faced in the,
maker field by election, and guess what?

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Andy Burnham just shrugged
it off, took it, which is the

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way that you should play it.

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just diffuse the joke by saying what
a good joke rather than who funds you

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pin base if that is your real name.

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Jane: it's rubbish for the people of
Claton that, Farage is willing to just

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stop being their MP to get himself out of,
bother they're one of the country's most.

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Poor areas because of having Far Farage
as their MP has been the butt of a

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joke for a couple of years, rather than
anybody trying to say, actually what

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can we do for the people of, Clacton?

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There's a large area of Clacton, which
is doomed by, sea flooding really.

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And nothing's being spent on the fact
that these homes are worth nothing.

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Nobody will invest in it because
it's going underwater really soon.

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And yeah, it's really hard to,
be the people of Clacton 'cause

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the MP is useless for them.

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Yeah,

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Helen: He's not held a huge
amount of constituency surgeries.

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He's not seemed overly
interested in them as a 'cause.

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This was one of the things was like,
actually I know that the prospect of Bin

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Face winning is extremely remote, but I
thought you could parachute in any random

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person to have a crack at, being their mp.

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And I don't think they would
necessarily do worse as a

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constituent MP just on averager.

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Jane: A small amount of constituency
casework, and they're already ahead.

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Helen: Yeah,

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Andy: there are.

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a lot of, reforms Heartland, as it were
is coastal and often quite deprived

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constituents, isn't it, Richard?

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T the party's deputy leader
is, Boston and Ness, I believe.

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And so there's a, lot of that.

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And Claton is where, Douglas
Carswell of Kopp, yes.

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defected from the conservatives,
what about a decade ago.

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and had a byelection for it, but that
was 'cause it was a change of party and

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Adam: had a horrible fallout
with, with Nigel Farage.

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Then later the

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Andy: of Uch Kipp, who no,
who was extremely graceless

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and cross about that one too.

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Jane: there are reasons why people there
feel left behind by every other party

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because it's, it's got real deep problems.

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Andy: Yeah.

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Are there early indications of what
people in Claton think about the kind

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of circus that's about to descent or
the fact that it's been, that Farra

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has forced this on them as it were?

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Jane: I think that the people
have claton are more invisible

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than anybody thinks they are.

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They're, because it's such a, poor area.

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They're the sort of most offline
people in the UK that, aren't getting

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their voice heard or out there.

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Helen: he won a really resounding,
majority of the 2024 election.

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He won more than the second and
third place, which was Labour

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and Conservatives combined.

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So there is also, we should
acknowledge the fact that Conservatives

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didn't run in the seat 'cause
they think they would lose to him.

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And also Restore didn't run in the seat.

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'cause they think they would lose to him.

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Like I, everything was says that
he, you'd expect a very low turnout

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in a by-election anyway, even
if there were other candidates.

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In that case it's gonna play out, I
would say in a very straightforward way.

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All the indications are Yeah.

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But you are right to say about the
polling because actually the headline

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polling nationally is that the majority of
people do think the donations are wiffy.

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It's not a situation in which it's
only two Oxford graduates sitting

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in the BBC who were upset about
this or whoever the establishment.

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we're gonna talk about who
the establishment is, maybe

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in the Prince Harry Case.

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'cause it's not Prince
Harry, literal Prince Harry.

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but this is actually something that
genuinely, people are very sensitive.

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Corruption.

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They were very sensitive to.

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Keir Starmer's freebie glasses.

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They don't like it when
politicians seem to be on the take.

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Andy: I think it is.

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Anything which has a concrete noun is much
easier to… make real in people's minds.

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So free glasses and suits is a perfect
example of that when it's just finance.

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I think it is harder because people
know that there are political donations

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and they know that there's a bit of
access for money trading going on.

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But the thing is about a 5
million quid paid into your

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personal bank account, it's the

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Adam: sheer amount, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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you

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Andy: look

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00:08:58,571 --> 00:09:02,186
Adam: back to the last sort of like
really big, bout of outrage about,

240
00:09:02,196 --> 00:09:05,921
about, about this kind of thing and
it's MP's expenses back in 2009,

241
00:09:06,161 --> 00:09:06,371
Andy: right?

242
00:09:06,551 --> 00:09:09,911
Adam: And none of these sums that were
involved in that ever approached 5

243
00:09:09,911 --> 00:09:12,311
million pounds being claimed by anyone.

244
00:09:12,341 --> 00:09:12,431
Yeah.

245
00:09:12,641 --> 00:09:13,601
by single mp.

246
00:09:13,901 --> 00:09:16,821
And then to be he does not
have a leg to stand on.

247
00:09:16,901 --> 00:09:17,711
Absolutely.

248
00:09:18,161 --> 00:09:20,741
However you look at the rules that
money needed to be declared just

249
00:09:20,741 --> 00:09:22,601
on a sort of moral and ethical way.

250
00:09:22,846 --> 00:09:25,241
it obviously was something that
people deserved to know about.

251
00:09:25,241 --> 00:09:28,121
The people of Clacton has been talking
about deserve to know that their,

252
00:09:28,506 --> 00:09:31,721
that, that their MP was personally
in hock to, to, to Christopher

253
00:09:31,721 --> 00:09:32,746
Harboe for that amount of money.

254
00:09:33,281 --> 00:09:35,861
it's just extraordinary to try and
blast it through and say none of

255
00:09:35,861 --> 00:09:39,521
this matters and none of the stuff
about, Georgia Cultural who is been

256
00:09:39,521 --> 00:09:41,231
convicted of crimes in America.

257
00:09:41,351 --> 00:09:43,986
What, and wrote a book called How
to Lau Launder Money, I believe

258
00:09:44,201 --> 00:09:48,461
Andy: was picked up in America
at an airport with Farage, when

259
00:09:48,461 --> 00:09:50,891
he was picked up and arrested to
be banged up in the first place.

260
00:09:51,011 --> 00:09:53,021
Nigel was there at the scene.

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00:09:53,046 --> 00:09:55,361
Helen: But I think America is a
big part of this story because the

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other thing that Farage said in that
speech is, I don't have to be here.

263
00:09:58,241 --> 00:09:59,381
I don't have to do this.

264
00:09:59,921 --> 00:10:01,721
I could be earning some real money.

265
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I could go to America.

266
00:10:03,221 --> 00:10:07,391
And that was both an ill-advised thing
to say in my view, and also extremely

267
00:10:07,391 --> 00:10:11,411
true if he was, he could be doing that
conference circuit of CPAC where he was

268
00:10:11,411 --> 00:10:15,641
like, Mr. Brexit and all of those, to
my mind, slightly ghastly conferences

269
00:10:15,641 --> 00:10:19,061
where people sit in a room and listen
to various has beens going on about

270
00:10:19,061 --> 00:10:20,321
their rightwing populist triumphs.

271
00:10:20,701 --> 00:10:22,800
Victor Orban presumably joining
that circuit quite soon.

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00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:26,340
But, that, that came to me is that
he must be looking at the money that

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00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,480
Trump is making, Trump's getting his
own Air Force one, from the Qatari or

274
00:10:31,260 --> 00:10:36,195
Trump's sons have made these millions
from crypto and he's got measly 5

275
00:10:36,195 --> 00:10:38,070
million quid from some crypto guy.

276
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,180
In his mind that is not very much
money, but as you say, in the minds

277
00:10:42,180 --> 00:10:45,180
of the average British working
person, that's quite a big money

278
00:10:45,180 --> 00:10:48,510
for someone to, to give you just
as a lovely present for no reason.

279
00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:49,350
Jane: Yes.

280
00:10:49,650 --> 00:10:53,580
A lot of the stories we've covered in
private eye about politicians getting,

281
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,873
payouts for  lobbying stuff are really
small amounts of money and people are

282
00:10:58,873 --> 00:11:05,473
still cross about those sort of 20,000
pounds here and there for representing,

283
00:11:06,133 --> 00:11:08,053
corporate interests in, Parliament.

284
00:11:08,293 --> 00:11:10,543
And we're always outraged about those.

285
00:11:10,543 --> 00:11:14,113
And people generally think
mps shouldn't be doing that.

286
00:11:14,138 --> 00:11:16,064
Adam: But also these are the ones
we know about as well, aren't they?

287
00:11:16,544 --> 00:11:19,274
the, we had the 5 million from Harbo
was broken by the Guardian sort of

288
00:11:19,274 --> 00:11:22,664
a month, six weeks ago, and then the
Sunday Times revelations about all of

289
00:11:23,054 --> 00:11:26,864
the cash and stuff coming in from George
cotterall is an entirely new thing for us.

290
00:11:26,864 --> 00:11:27,434
It's only defensive.

291
00:11:27,434 --> 00:11:30,434
This is, it's none of your business,
none of you need to know about this.

292
00:11:30,464 --> 00:11:32,954
For all we know, there are millions
more coming in from all sorts

293
00:11:32,954 --> 00:11:35,294
of other people, but that's why
this stuff needs to be declared.

294
00:11:35,864 --> 00:11:38,024
there is, a reason for
transparency in politics,

295
00:11:38,024 --> 00:11:40,391
Andy: but there's a really well
established thing that Nigel likes money.

296
00:11:40,451 --> 00:11:45,041
I mean his expenses when he was an MEP,
his pension, I think from the, European

297
00:11:45,041 --> 00:11:48,521
Parliament, these have all been gone
into in quite a lot of detail before

298
00:11:48,521 --> 00:11:50,581
he became an MP of the 2024 election.

299
00:11:50,941 --> 00:11:54,275
There was loads of stuff about
how he'd done his, It's not

300
00:11:54,275 --> 00:11:55,445
an Only Fans, it's a Cameo.

301
00:11:55,475 --> 00:11:56,430
Sorry, I was gonna say came Cameo.

302
00:11:56,885 --> 00:11:59,345
It's so hard to get those cleared up,

303
00:11:59,395 --> 00:11:59,515
Helen: Yeah.

304
00:11:59,515 --> 00:12:01,975
But anybody who will take
essentially to walk to him is

305
00:12:01,975 --> 00:12:04,555
pocket change to do, hello, Mr.

306
00:12:04,555 --> 00:12:05,365
And Mrs. Shipman.

307
00:12:05,575 --> 00:12:08,395
I, I hear on the site your,
son Harold's birthday.

308
00:12:08,575 --> 00:12:11,215
Like all those joke things that
you've been doing on, Cameo, that's

309
00:12:11,215 --> 00:12:13,285
somebody who was thirsty for cash.

310
00:12:13,435 --> 00:12:15,505
Andy: I'm a, I should declare
another interest here, which is

311
00:12:15,505 --> 00:12:18,565
that I'm a donor 'cause I, make
that Radio four show the naked week.

312
00:12:18,565 --> 00:12:21,595
And we, paid Nigel 75 quid to
read out the credits one week.

313
00:12:21,715 --> 00:12:23,755
He didn't know he was doing it,
but we were saying thank you

314
00:12:23,755 --> 00:12:25,825
to, Jason and Katie and John.

315
00:12:25,825 --> 00:12:28,605
Anyway, I'm up to, it's also

316
00:12:29,285 --> 00:12:30,505
Adam: then try and use the defence.

317
00:12:30,745 --> 00:12:34,015
I can't be bought by anyone when
you've literally been flocking

318
00:12:34,015 --> 00:12:35,605
cameos for 85 quid a pop.

319
00:12:35,635 --> 00:12:35,895
Andy: This is the thing.

320
00:12:35,940 --> 00:12:36,160
It

321
00:12:36,165 --> 00:12:36,775
Adam: just doesn't wash.

322
00:12:36,775 --> 00:12:38,755
Andy: This is the cultural trope
of rich people don't like money.

323
00:12:38,755 --> 00:12:39,415
Yes, they do.

324
00:12:39,415 --> 00:12:40,495
That's how they got rich.

325
00:12:40,945 --> 00:12:41,600
That's why they're rich.

326
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,815
And I should say the, rules
are pretty lax in my opinion.

327
00:12:44,815 --> 00:12:48,999
As in you can take 5 million quid from
someone all you have to do is declare it.

328
00:12:49,479 --> 00:12:50,829
You just have to say you've done it.

329
00:12:50,829 --> 00:12:51,219
That's all.

330
00:12:51,219 --> 00:12:53,229
And then someone else can
say, you did take this money

331
00:12:53,229 --> 00:12:53,979
from this person, didn't you?

332
00:12:53,979 --> 00:12:54,639
And you have to say yes.

333
00:12:54,939 --> 00:12:57,039
Even then you may well get
away with it 'cause it won't

334
00:12:57,039 --> 00:12:58,119
be made a big enough story.

335
00:12:58,359 --> 00:12:59,319
Helen: But that's what stuffed him.

336
00:12:59,319 --> 00:13:01,329
Because I was just trying to think
back to like things like cash for

337
00:13:01,329 --> 00:13:02,289
questions and stuff like that.

338
00:13:02,619 --> 00:13:05,889
Essentially we do have this unwritten
way that actually public shame is

339
00:13:05,889 --> 00:13:07,779
what makes you not to do these things.

340
00:13:08,179 --> 00:13:11,260
I sense that may be like a losing
tactic when it comes to Raj.

341
00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:14,080
but the idea of sanctioned by
the parliamentary standards

342
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,100
commissioner does exist.

343
00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:18,550
He has now by which comes back to what
you were saying last time about the

344
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:22,390
fact that maybe becoming an MP has been
an, has been a tricky thing for him.

345
00:13:22,930 --> 00:13:25,600
It has moved him into the legitimacy
of saying, I'm gonna compete and

346
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:26,770
I'm gonna try and be Prime minister.

347
00:13:26,860 --> 00:13:26,950
Yeah.

348
00:13:27,070 --> 00:13:31,060
And it has exposed him to a huge
amount of nag rule makers that he

349
00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:34,480
does not feel I legitimate, but do
nonetheless have power over him.

350
00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:37,540
And then to go back to Trump, this is
exactly, we'll see this play out again,

351
00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:41,350
which is either he has to accept the
sanctions, or more likely he has to try

352
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:45,550
and turn over the entire table and destroy
this whole regime, destroy the idea.

353
00:13:45,550 --> 00:13:46,690
You have to declare anything.

354
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:49,480
That's the only way he can
bulldoze through to power.

355
00:13:49,630 --> 00:13:51,640
Which in my view now, that
was exactly what Trump did.

356
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,190
Trump said, go on,
enforce all these rules.

357
00:13:54,430 --> 00:13:55,240
Oh no, you can't.

358
00:13:55,270 --> 00:13:56,680
They don't functionally exist anymore.

359
00:13:57,190 --> 00:14:00,730
Andy: And people, I think people don't
really care about the, if there was

360
00:14:00,730 --> 00:14:03,820
a judgement  and he was banned from
Parliament for three days or whatever,

361
00:14:04,090 --> 00:14:08,680
suspended from Commons for three days,
that's a story which I think doesn't quite

362
00:14:08,860 --> 00:14:13,390
catch enough interest to make it a serious
and lasting block of damage to him.

363
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:17,556
But this, because it's It's
so big and it's so public.

364
00:14:17,586 --> 00:14:20,856
I think it does make a lot of
people who were thinking, yeah,

365
00:14:20,886 --> 00:14:22,776
okay, reform that seems reasonable.

366
00:14:22,776 --> 00:14:23,616
We've got a lot of problems.

367
00:14:23,616 --> 00:14:24,966
The other two parties haven't sorted it.

368
00:14:25,086 --> 00:14:27,246
There are plenty of people who
were thinking like that, who are

369
00:14:27,246 --> 00:14:31,236
beyond the reform base, but who
reform do need to win an election.

370
00:14:31,656 --> 00:14:33,666
I think those people are the ones
who will be looking at this and

371
00:14:33,726 --> 00:14:35,166
thinking, this is embarrassing.

372
00:14:35,526 --> 00:14:38,526
Helen: I'm gonna interject my normal note
here, which is to say that reform are

373
00:14:38,526 --> 00:14:40,416
nonetheless still the top polling party.

374
00:14:40,446 --> 00:14:40,506
Yeah.

375
00:14:40,536 --> 00:14:41,706
Labour have had a bit of a bounce.

376
00:14:42,096 --> 00:14:46,656
The, Burnham Bounce, which I suspect will
be about as long lasting as an ice cream.

377
00:14:46,896 --> 00:14:51,516
But, but you know that it is entirely
possible that Nigel Farage will

378
00:14:51,516 --> 00:14:53,856
stay the leader and will contest
the next section and we'll make

379
00:14:53,856 --> 00:14:56,316
huge electoral gains nonetheless.

380
00:14:56,466 --> 00:14:58,956
Which is why I think we have to keep
talking about this because unless you've

381
00:14:59,016 --> 00:15:03,156
enforce and patrol these boundaries,
they, degrade and it will not be good for

382
00:15:03,156 --> 00:15:06,966
British politics if it becomes more like
American politics in which eye watering

383
00:15:06,966 --> 00:15:10,926
sums of money are chucked to politicians
to get them to serve corporate interests.

384
00:15:11,296 --> 00:15:13,036
Can I talk about a
little bit about Restore?

385
00:15:13,336 --> 00:15:13,816
Andy: Yeah.

386
00:15:14,326 --> 00:15:17,026
Helen: So one of the things I also
think has been a genuine problem for

387
00:15:17,086 --> 00:15:22,966
by, for Farage is that the right wing
media online ecosystem, the kind of

388
00:15:23,446 --> 00:15:28,996
fascist boomer fa Facebook pipeline, if
you will, has been, he's been severely

389
00:15:28,996 --> 00:15:31,186
challenged by Rupert Lowe and Restore.

390
00:15:31,696 --> 00:15:35,566
And a couple of really key players
in this who are Americans who get

391
00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:38,866
dabble in British politics ha, are
now much more enthused about what

392
00:15:38,866 --> 00:15:42,436
they see as the kind of full fat Coke
version of this, which is Rupert Lowe.

393
00:15:42,766 --> 00:15:45,466
So he was on Joe Rogan's
podcast, now one of the top for

394
00:15:45,466 --> 00:15:46,666
hauling podcasts in the world.

395
00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:50,536
Rupert Lowe and Joe Rogan started
off by saying, I'd like to

396
00:15:50,536 --> 00:15:52,366
say a thank you to Elon Musk.

397
00:15:52,456 --> 00:15:55,156
Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein,
former member of the Intellectual

398
00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:56,746
Dark Web for setting this up.

399
00:15:56,746 --> 00:15:59,176
Andy: Sorry, I did,
it's an actual dark web.

400
00:15:59,176 --> 00:15:59,562
Bless him.

401
00:16:00,546 --> 00:16:01,876
I did need, that glossing, I'm afraid.

402
00:16:01,926 --> 00:16:03,301
Helen: but Rupert Low went on Joe Rogan.

403
00:16:03,456 --> 00:16:05,946
And it was a fa it was
fascinating for two reasons.

404
00:16:05,946 --> 00:16:08,616
As someone who watches all this stuff,
first of all, you've got all of these

405
00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:11,826
memes, a few of which were so dank, I
didn't even know them and had to look

406
00:16:11,826 --> 00:16:14,976
them up, but I imagine are completely
common currency in this world.

407
00:16:15,246 --> 00:16:19,579
And the other thing is how that podcast
format is the enemy of, fact checking.

408
00:16:19,729 --> 00:16:22,661
So the one that he got into trouble
for was saying handguns were banned in

409
00:16:22,661 --> 00:16:25,661
Britain after one murder in Dunblane.

410
00:16:25,931 --> 00:16:29,051
So you had lots of Scottish mps
saying, actually it was more than

411
00:16:29,051 --> 00:16:30,671
a dozen children and their teacher.

412
00:16:30,701 --> 00:16:34,331
It was, there, there was a reason also,
the other thing is, I don't think there is

413
00:16:34,331 --> 00:16:36,671
any massive pro-gun lobby in Britain No.

414
00:16:36,671 --> 00:16:38,771
That sees this as a terrible
injustice, actually.

415
00:16:39,041 --> 00:16:41,561
And then he said my father could
had to get give up his shooting

416
00:16:41,561 --> 00:16:43,001
pistols, which he shot at Oxford.

417
00:16:43,271 --> 00:16:44,111
Very man, other people.

418
00:16:45,131 --> 00:16:47,321
and said it's very, hard to get guns.

419
00:16:47,321 --> 00:16:50,501
And I thought it's actually, I've got
a relative who, owns several shotguns.

420
00:16:50,501 --> 00:16:54,071
If you've got no criminal record, it's,
quite, they're quite, they're not.

421
00:16:54,401 --> 00:16:57,071
Adam: see, he hasn't had a problem
'cause, and famously he got his assistant

422
00:16:57,071 --> 00:16:58,211
to shoot his own dog, didn't he?

423
00:16:58,271 --> 00:17:02,491
Rather than I'm vet this was Nadine
Doris's great argument in maker field was,

424
00:17:03,061 --> 00:17:07,441
the, that Rupert Lowe had, had his own
dog shot and got an assistance to do it.

425
00:17:07,641 --> 00:17:10,627
the dog would've had to been put down by
the vet, but he does know now shotgun out.

426
00:17:10,747 --> 00:17:12,937
And, he said now we're
saying about no challenge.

427
00:17:12,937 --> 00:17:15,187
I'm taking this directly from
Nadine, Doris in the Daily Mail.

428
00:17:15,187 --> 00:17:15,577
So I'm make

429
00:17:15,787 --> 00:17:17,017
Helen: that's you get all your news.

430
00:17:17,137 --> 00:17:17,887
You love that column.

431
00:17:18,157 --> 00:17:21,667
But no, but he said he essentially,
someone made a fake accusation that he

432
00:17:21,667 --> 00:17:25,267
was, he threatens the yusef of, reform
and then they, people came around and

433
00:17:25,267 --> 00:17:27,817
interviewed him about his guns and
this was an imposition on his liberty.

434
00:17:27,967 --> 00:17:31,507
I'm in favour in a world in which
someone's accused of, wanting,

435
00:17:31,777 --> 00:17:33,907
perpetrator violence and someone
and the police go round and

436
00:17:33,907 --> 00:17:35,257
check their firearms are secured.

437
00:17:35,527 --> 00:17:36,247
That's okay with me.

438
00:17:36,487 --> 00:17:39,157
But anyway, so let me, would you like
a short list of the people that Rupert

439
00:17:39,157 --> 00:17:40,417
Lowe believes have ruined Britain?

440
00:17:40,537 --> 00:17:40,927
Adam: Oh, yes.

441
00:17:40,927 --> 00:17:41,017
Okay.

442
00:17:41,017 --> 00:17:42,667
Helen: Some of these, you're gonna
expect, some of these you're really not.

443
00:17:42,697 --> 00:17:42,907
Okay.

444
00:17:43,057 --> 00:17:43,747
The police.

445
00:17:44,681 --> 00:17:45,341
Two work the band

446
00:17:47,026 --> 00:17:47,376
Sting

447
00:17:47,471 --> 00:17:49,271
personally and who, whoever
the other people in the police

448
00:17:49,271 --> 00:17:51,071
turned out to be, the judiciary.

449
00:17:51,191 --> 00:17:54,701
'cause they're trying to scrap jury
trials so that they can rig trials.

450
00:17:55,661 --> 00:17:58,001
The World Economic Forum Classic.

451
00:17:58,001 --> 00:17:58,961
You were expecting that, weren't you?

452
00:17:59,291 --> 00:18:01,361
The Builder Burgers wreck?

453
00:18:01,361 --> 00:18:01,571
I haven't

454
00:18:01,571 --> 00:18:02,591
Adam: heard about them for a while.

455
00:18:02,591 --> 00:18:02,981
Yeah.

456
00:18:03,671 --> 00:18:05,171
Helen: The Fabian Society.

457
00:18:05,981 --> 00:18:06,461
Adam: Okay.

458
00:18:06,521 --> 00:18:07,301
Helen: Yes, Jane.

459
00:18:07,301 --> 00:18:09,461
The correct Look, the Fabian Society.

460
00:18:09,551 --> 00:18:09,851
This is

461
00:18:09,851 --> 00:18:11,201
Adam: not the fans of the model.

462
00:18:11,201 --> 00:18:11,771
Fabio

463
00:18:14,411 --> 00:18:14,501
Helen: what?

464
00:18:14,501 --> 00:18:14,631
Slack actors.

465
00:18:14,631 --> 00:18:14,776
They're always getting

466
00:18:14,776 --> 00:18:15,376
Adam: each other's post.

467
00:18:15,494 --> 00:18:16,096
It's a nightmare.

468
00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:18,281
Andy: Can you just remind
our, listeners who the

469
00:18:18,281 --> 00:18:19,181
Helen: Fabian Society Yeah.

470
00:18:19,181 --> 00:18:20,201
Labour, think Tank.

471
00:18:20,578 --> 00:18:23,458
he says every labour, MP is a member.

472
00:18:23,458 --> 00:18:25,048
It's actually about a quarter of them.

473
00:18:25,828 --> 00:18:27,928
Stan is a member, but it's essentially,
it's like, it's a labour thing.

474
00:18:27,928 --> 00:18:28,168
Technique.

475
00:18:28,168 --> 00:18:32,144
He says their, their logo is a w
wolf in sheep's clothing, which

476
00:18:32,144 --> 00:18:33,554
it's true, it's from the 1920s.

477
00:18:33,554 --> 00:18:34,964
They also thought it was kind awesome.

478
00:18:35,264 --> 00:18:37,669
But he presents this as
being incredibly sinister.

479
00:18:37,814 --> 00:18:39,074
Adam: I love a conspiracy theory.

480
00:18:39,074 --> 00:18:40,604
That's like a hiding in plain sight.

481
00:18:40,604 --> 00:18:43,274
They put something evil there
and only I have spotted it.

482
00:18:43,274 --> 00:18:44,414
Yeah, you wouldn't, would you?

483
00:18:44,419 --> 00:18:44,749
Helen: No, it's baby.

484
00:18:44,749 --> 00:18:46,544
Adam: You wouldn't have the
wolf in sheep's clothing if you

485
00:18:46,544 --> 00:18:47,589
were trying to do either way.

486
00:18:48,459 --> 00:18:50,024
Just like you'd have a fluffy bunny.

487
00:18:50,384 --> 00:18:50,894
you have,

488
00:18:50,894 --> 00:18:51,044
Andy: you'd

489
00:18:51,044 --> 00:18:51,194
Adam: have

490
00:18:51,194 --> 00:18:51,434
Andy: a sheep.

491
00:18:52,754 --> 00:18:53,804
Adam: yeah, No wolf still

492
00:18:54,134 --> 00:18:54,644
Helen: just the sheep.

493
00:18:54,644 --> 00:18:54,914
Okay.

494
00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:57,044
the Nudge unit.

495
00:18:58,004 --> 00:18:58,484
Andy: Oh yes.

496
00:18:58,544 --> 00:18:59,144
Oh yeah.

497
00:18:59,144 --> 00:19:00,764
No, that was, this is a
Cameroonian thing, isn't it?

498
00:19:00,764 --> 00:19:01,604
Cameroon era.

499
00:19:01,604 --> 00:19:06,134
And it was designed to encourage people
on things like was it diet and exercise.

500
00:19:06,134 --> 00:19:07,544
And it was encouraging healthier.

501
00:19:07,574 --> 00:19:08,414
Why not try eating

502
00:19:08,414 --> 00:19:09,014
Adam: apples?

503
00:19:09,056 --> 00:19:12,167
Helen: Some of these were more elevated
policy propositions than that one.

504
00:19:12,197 --> 00:19:16,007
I'll Beit useful, but his theory was
that the COVID, they, sinlessly nudged

505
00:19:16,007 --> 00:19:17,267
people towards getting the COVID jab.

506
00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:20,750
Which Rupert Low didn't have
because he is quote, a pure blood.

507
00:19:22,670 --> 00:19:23,570
Adam: Okay.

508
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:27,590
Helen: Yeah, I was like, I pro after
having a long riff on immigration,

509
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:30,230
I probably wouldn't have described
myself as a pure bug, but you do you?

510
00:19:30,711 --> 00:19:33,021
Baby boomers based agreed
with 'em on that one.

511
00:19:34,071 --> 00:19:35,421
Rory Stewart's wife.

512
00:19:37,281 --> 00:19:37,611
Andy: Okay.

513
00:19:37,821 --> 00:19:41,721
Helen: Because the charity that she
works for took money from usaid,

514
00:19:41,751 --> 00:19:47,001
which is obviously, as we all know, a
huge funnel for, money CF Elon Musk.

515
00:19:47,001 --> 00:19:48,141
I put it in the wood chipper.

516
00:19:49,251 --> 00:19:49,491
Okay.

517
00:19:49,491 --> 00:19:50,811
But good to see some accountability.

518
00:19:50,841 --> 00:19:52,461
Andy: Just Rory Stewart's
wife, not Rory Stewart.

519
00:19:52,581 --> 00:19:53,091
Helen: No.

520
00:19:53,381 --> 00:19:54,831
For once he got away, Scott

521
00:19:54,831 --> 00:19:58,941
Andy: is thinking, I suppose he's angling
for an appearance on the rest is politics.

522
00:19:58,941 --> 00:19:59,061
I sure.

523
00:19:59,331 --> 00:19:59,481
Helen: Oh,

524
00:19:59,481 --> 00:19:59,811
we all,

525
00:19:59,901 --> 00:20:00,081
Andy: yeah.

526
00:20:00,681 --> 00:20:04,461
Helen: Tony Blair, because quotes,
he looks like Belzebub with his white

527
00:20:04,461 --> 00:20:06,831
hair now and his piercing blue eyes.

528
00:20:08,751 --> 00:20:10,131
Is that what Beba looks like?

529
00:20:10,131 --> 00:20:13,251
Canonically, please write
in, the public sector.

530
00:20:13,311 --> 00:20:16,041
There's too many of them are
sapping our society and here we go.

531
00:20:16,041 --> 00:20:17,421
Here's one I'd never heard about before.

532
00:20:17,421 --> 00:20:19,881
Have you ever heard of a
conspiracy theory about the holding

533
00:20:19,924 --> 00:20:21,621
society of socialist lawyers?

534
00:20:21,676 --> 00:20:21,896
No.

535
00:20:22,217 --> 00:20:22,907
It's a socialist.

536
00:20:22,907 --> 00:20:23,057
I want

537
00:20:23,057 --> 00:20:23,207
Adam: to,

538
00:20:24,287 --> 00:20:29,087
Helen: it's a socialist law society,
which, Keir Starmer belongs to, given

539
00:20:29,087 --> 00:20:31,037
that he was both a lawyer and socialist.

540
00:20:31,607 --> 00:20:33,257
he calls them Rupert Low calls them.

541
00:20:33,407 --> 00:20:37,877
The Fabian Pablo is Halane Society
with, which has a malign philosophy.

542
00:20:38,117 --> 00:20:39,767
Do you know what Pablo were type oft.

543
00:20:39,767 --> 00:20:39,947
It's what

544
00:20:39,957 --> 00:20:40,967
Adam: Starmer wasn't

545
00:20:40,982 --> 00:20:41,062
Helen: it?

546
00:20:41,062 --> 00:20:41,222
Yeah.

547
00:20:41,357 --> 00:20:41,567
Yeah.

548
00:20:41,597 --> 00:20:42,737
Adam: Briefly As a young man, that's

549
00:20:42,737 --> 00:20:43,142
Andy: what sort type

550
00:20:43,142 --> 00:20:43,152
Adam: of,

551
00:20:43,152 --> 00:20:44,507
Helen: it's a type of Trotskyist.

552
00:20:44,777 --> 00:20:45,077
Yeah.

553
00:20:45,827 --> 00:20:50,207
but I was like, this is some deep cuts
from Rupert Low here is just like I had,

554
00:20:50,687 --> 00:20:53,447
I he's, heard of conspiracy theories
about the deep state you haven't

555
00:20:53,447 --> 00:20:55,757
even heard of, like the early albums.

556
00:20:55,967 --> 00:20:59,777
Andy: It'd be exhausting holding this
many villains in your head at one time.

557
00:21:00,287 --> 00:21:02,807
Helen: it's also really interesting 'cause
he was really there to talk about his

558
00:21:02,867 --> 00:21:07,522
rape gang inquiry report, which I've read
it runs through some really disturbing

559
00:21:07,522 --> 00:21:12,412
testimony, but most of it, anonymous or
pseudonymous, no attempt to corroborate

560
00:21:12,412 --> 00:21:17,572
it some incredibly, over the, I think
I'm actually gonna say, I think over

561
00:21:17,572 --> 00:21:20,752
the top exaggerations of the type that
if someone came to you and, any of you

562
00:21:20,752 --> 00:21:23,902
were doing the story on them, you would
go, this is an extraordinary allegation.

563
00:21:23,902 --> 00:21:25,282
I'm gonna need extraordinary evidence.

564
00:21:25,282 --> 00:21:28,102
Like people being raped by dogs,
someone opening a Van and there

565
00:21:28,102 --> 00:21:29,872
being 15 women in cages in the back.

566
00:21:30,182 --> 00:21:31,802
Adam: It's like Carl Beach
all over again, isn't it?

567
00:21:32,072 --> 00:21:32,642
Helen: this is the thing.

568
00:21:32,642 --> 00:21:35,852
I'm sure there are real allegations
in there and really disturbing stuff,

569
00:21:35,852 --> 00:21:39,242
but it, one of the hardest things
about doing those allegations is

570
00:21:39,332 --> 00:21:42,062
separating out the things that you
can actually prove and then only

571
00:21:42,062 --> 00:21:44,702
printing the things you can prove,
which people are really unhappy with

572
00:21:45,152 --> 00:21:46,892
when it turns out there was a scandal.

573
00:21:47,252 --> 00:21:50,512
But if you go too far, like Car Beach
and you just say, anything anyone says to

574
00:21:50,512 --> 00:21:51,862
me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write it down.

575
00:21:52,282 --> 00:21:54,262
That's equally problematic.

576
00:21:54,312 --> 00:21:54,702
Adam: funny, isn't it?

577
00:21:54,852 --> 00:21:58,932
Rupert Low comes across letters a, as
a mainstream politician, which you'd

578
00:21:58,932 --> 00:22:02,142
probably be glad to hear, is just a
man who's got a very specific set of

579
00:22:02,142 --> 00:22:05,292
interests, which don't necessarily,
some of them happen to have coincided

580
00:22:05,292 --> 00:22:08,262
with kind of, public views on
immigration and things at the moment.

581
00:22:08,262 --> 00:22:09,732
And not on, on, grooming gangs.

582
00:22:10,092 --> 00:22:13,482
But like you said, the, the gun law
one is a really weird one that's

583
00:22:13,482 --> 00:22:15,312
not, that's for an American audience.

584
00:22:15,312 --> 00:22:17,772
It works, but people in Britain
aren't, that was, that's not

585
00:22:17,772 --> 00:22:20,232
been generally held to be one of
the massive successes wasn't it?

586
00:22:20,442 --> 00:22:21,342
Was, the, but it's all

587
00:22:21,342 --> 00:22:22,092
Helen: libertarian.

588
00:22:22,602 --> 00:22:24,552
It's all, libertarian in a very
American way, which is I don't

589
00:22:24,552 --> 00:22:25,632
want people telling me what to do.

590
00:22:26,082 --> 00:22:27,202
But it is all of a piece.

591
00:22:27,202 --> 00:22:30,352
It's no one can tell me to get a COVID
jab, even though it'll help other people.

592
00:22:30,352 --> 00:22:32,422
No one can tell me to put my
guns away, even though it'll

593
00:22:32,422 --> 00:22:33,862
stop schoolchildren getting shot.

594
00:22:34,132 --> 00:22:36,442
Nobody can tell me what to
tweet and what not to tweet.

595
00:22:37,252 --> 00:22:40,012
that's the kind of connecting
thread through all of these things,

596
00:22:40,012 --> 00:22:41,062
and that's part of the worldview.

597
00:22:41,242 --> 00:22:41,782
But you are right.

598
00:22:41,782 --> 00:22:44,362
His affect is really interesting
because it is very British.

599
00:22:44,362 --> 00:22:49,252
Like he, he reeks of like guy at the
end of the bar and the golf club having

600
00:22:49,252 --> 00:22:51,022
a martini and telling you some stuff.

601
00:22:51,442 --> 00:22:54,982
Like it's, it is not Tommy
Robinson sort of street thug.

602
00:22:55,582 --> 00:22:58,582
And actually Tommy Robinson has done
things like the Jordan Peterson podcast,

603
00:22:59,176 --> 00:23:03,431
and on a class basis, he's gonna find it
harder to get a hearing in those American

604
00:23:03,431 --> 00:23:06,551
podcasts where they love what they see
as a kind of British tof, essentially.

605
00:23:07,421 --> 00:23:09,851
so Rupert Lowe has been doing the,
he's been working the circuit.

606
00:23:10,211 --> 00:23:13,571
And again, like Ni Nigel Farage, he
might decide that actually that to

607
00:23:13,571 --> 00:23:17,561
him is a more receptive and congenial
audience than British electoral politics.

608
00:23:17,651 --> 00:23:19,961
Adam: what for us doesn't like is
having to take the responsibility

609
00:23:19,961 --> 00:23:21,041
and the accountability, isn't it?

610
00:23:21,281 --> 00:23:23,141
it's much, much easier if
you can't just go on podcasts

611
00:23:23,141 --> 00:23:25,961
and we do just talk nonsense.

612
00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:26,636
Helen: I hear.

613
00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:27,236
I, okay.

614
00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:27,756
That's very popular.

615
00:23:30,218 --> 00:23:33,713
Andy: Jane, you have be writing a little
bit about defence and procurement.

616
00:23:34,223 --> 00:23:34,733
Jane: yes.

617
00:23:35,123 --> 00:23:35,933
For many years.

618
00:23:35,933 --> 00:23:36,383
Yes.

619
00:23:36,383 --> 00:23:36,443
Yeah.

620
00:23:36,503 --> 00:23:41,235
so it's obviously been in the news
recently because the latest, defence

621
00:23:41,235 --> 00:23:46,905
investment plan was, announced, which in
theory we're going to spend some more.

622
00:23:47,162 --> 00:23:52,276
it's an interesting question, spending
more in defence because whatever

623
00:23:52,306 --> 00:23:55,816
we pledge to spend in defence,
particularly on equipment, we always

624
00:23:55,816 --> 00:24:01,756
seem to end up spending a lot more
because we're so poor at buying things.

625
00:24:01,936 --> 00:24:02,356
Andy: Yes.

626
00:24:02,806 --> 00:24:05,446
it's a really, there are all these
weird things going on when you think

627
00:24:05,446 --> 00:24:08,326
about defence expenditure, which is.

628
00:24:08,948 --> 00:24:10,868
We seem to be spending these huge amounts.

629
00:24:11,018 --> 00:24:15,068
We seem to have fewer troops, ships,
planes, all of that than we've

630
00:24:15,068 --> 00:24:18,728
had at any point in our history,
that it doesn't quite match up.

631
00:24:18,818 --> 00:24:18,908
Yeah.

632
00:24:18,908 --> 00:24:19,208
And sure.

633
00:24:19,238 --> 00:24:22,148
Does the overspending count
towards our NATO commitment?

634
00:24:22,148 --> 00:24:22,718
Can we say?

635
00:24:22,898 --> 00:24:23,498
actually we've,

636
00:24:23,588 --> 00:24:23,918
Jane: we went

637
00:24:23,918 --> 00:24:25,208
Andy: massively overspent on this.

638
00:24:25,238 --> 00:24:25,478
Jane: Yes.

639
00:24:25,478 --> 00:24:29,018
We went massively over budget on this
project, but what it does help with is

640
00:24:29,018 --> 00:24:35,228
that it adds to the percentage of our GDP
that we're spending to help us with nato.

641
00:24:35,228 --> 00:24:35,648
But yes,

642
00:24:35,648 --> 00:24:35,833
Andy: so yeah.

643
00:24:35,888 --> 00:24:36,938
So that's not helpful in a way.

644
00:24:37,688 --> 00:24:42,674
Jane: We, have entire projects where,
they make such a, cock up of buying

645
00:24:42,674 --> 00:24:47,444
things that we manage to spend going
on a billion pounds on something and,

646
00:24:47,444 --> 00:24:49,904
not really get it or get to use it.

647
00:24:50,002 --> 00:24:50,242
Andy: Yeah.

648
00:24:50,242 --> 00:24:50,302
So

649
00:24:50,332 --> 00:24:56,332
Jane: there were Projects like watchkeeper
where it ended up, I think 14 years late.

650
00:24:56,332 --> 00:25:01,101
This was a sort of older generation
of, drone, autonomous flying, craft.

651
00:25:02,001 --> 00:25:02,241
yeah.

652
00:25:02,271 --> 00:25:07,748
It went so many years over schedule and
massively over budget that by the time

653
00:25:07,958 --> 00:25:10,478
that we had them, they were out of date.

654
00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:13,095
Helen: wasn't there a vehicle
that rattled so much that it

655
00:25:13,095 --> 00:25:14,205
really affected people's hearing?

656
00:25:14,205 --> 00:25:15,705
It was dangerous to use

657
00:25:15,765 --> 00:25:16,005
Jane: that.

658
00:25:16,035 --> 00:25:16,485
That's right.

659
00:25:16,485 --> 00:25:21,615
The Ajax vehicles, which yes, a
couple of times now we've come close

660
00:25:21,615 --> 00:25:23,445
to saying, let's cut our losses.

661
00:25:23,445 --> 00:25:27,405
And although we've spent hundreds of
millions on them already, let's just

662
00:25:27,735 --> 00:25:32,265
not because they're injuring people
without anybody having to go to war.

663
00:25:32,265 --> 00:25:36,075
Just the testing phase is causing
really quite serious injury to people.

664
00:25:36,075 --> 00:25:36,735
Extremely

665
00:25:36,735 --> 00:25:37,635
Andy: lethal vehicles.

666
00:25:37,635 --> 00:25:39,555
But unfortunately, only
if you're in to our side.

667
00:25:39,555 --> 00:25:41,205
Yeah, that's right.

668
00:25:41,295 --> 00:25:44,325
I wanted to actually quote a
letter that we had, and this was

669
00:25:44,325 --> 00:25:45,675
off the back of a defence story.

670
00:25:46,305 --> 00:25:48,915
'cause I think the really interesting
thing that you write about Jane, is

671
00:25:48,915 --> 00:25:53,115
that there's a lot of debate about
percentages and 3.5% versus 3% and

672
00:25:53,115 --> 00:25:55,815
2.65 versus 2.66 and all of this.

673
00:25:56,055 --> 00:25:59,805
But you often write about the actual
things that are being bought and

674
00:25:59,805 --> 00:26:01,185
where the money is being spent.

675
00:26:01,475 --> 00:26:05,375
This is from a correspondent
and subscriber, I hope, Julian

676
00:26:05,375 --> 00:26:09,005
Page, who wrote about the new
class of Dreadnought submarines.

677
00:26:09,095 --> 00:26:11,975
And they, the process started in 2016.

678
00:26:12,245 --> 00:26:15,455
The first ones won't enter
service until 20 in the 2030s.

679
00:26:15,455 --> 00:26:18,545
And the last of the, I think it's
four that have been bought, won't

680
00:26:18,545 --> 00:26:19,985
enter service until the 2040s.

681
00:26:20,225 --> 00:26:23,045
And Julian Page wrote, this is
equivalent to starting to build a

682
00:26:23,045 --> 00:26:26,765
class of four ships during the first
World War and not seeing them all in

683
00:26:26,765 --> 00:26:28,745
service until the second World War.

684
00:26:28,925 --> 00:26:29,015
Wow.

685
00:26:29,045 --> 00:26:30,275
What is going on?

686
00:26:30,335 --> 00:26:30,545
Jane: Yeah.

687
00:26:30,545 --> 00:26:30,555
Yeah.

688
00:26:30,665 --> 00:26:31,295
Andy: I think that's the,

689
00:26:31,595 --> 00:26:31,895
Jane: yes.

690
00:26:31,895 --> 00:26:33,125
Andy: That's what you have insight into.

691
00:26:33,125 --> 00:26:33,965
What is going on?

692
00:26:34,148 --> 00:26:36,758
Jane: an interesting thing because
in, in some ways some of our,

693
00:26:37,508 --> 00:26:41,498
greatest military successes have
been by people with a map and a pair

694
00:26:41,498 --> 00:26:43,508
of scissors and no budget at all.

695
00:26:44,108 --> 00:26:47,198
look at things like the early
SAS, they were stealing their

696
00:26:47,198 --> 00:26:48,668
equipment, so that was very cheap.

697
00:26:51,197 --> 00:26:55,427
the kind of small drones that we're
working with Ukraine with like

698
00:26:55,577 --> 00:26:57,977
cheap and cheerful, and, great.

699
00:26:58,007 --> 00:27:04,137
But when it comes to very big spend,
, everything gets caught up in a sort of

700
00:27:04,370 --> 00:27:06,980
defence procurement, lovely dinners.

701
00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:11,780
There's, there's a great deal of the
budget I think goes into the defence

702
00:27:11,780 --> 00:27:16,670
sector, whining and dining, the
people who are, buying the things.

703
00:27:16,670 --> 00:27:18,950
So obviously some of the
money has to go there.

704
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:25,550
Every quarter there is a, hospitality
register showing what people who are two

705
00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:30,500
star and above within the military have,
had, and, every time there's a great,

706
00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:33,200
many agreeable dinners on the list.

707
00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:33,440
Okay.

708
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:33,590
Wait,

709
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:35,480
Andy: but this is being paid
for by the defence firms?

710
00:27:35,540 --> 00:27:36,080
Jane: Yes.

711
00:27:36,290 --> 00:27:36,740
Andy: Oh, I see.

712
00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:37,070
Jane: But we are

713
00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:37,310
Adam: out of

714
00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:37,460
Jane: them.

715
00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:38,420
We are giving them all that money.

716
00:27:38,425 --> 00:27:39,305
We're paying them to build.

717
00:27:39,365 --> 00:27:39,585
And

718
00:27:39,585 --> 00:27:41,720
Adam: there's also quite a lot of the
other guests on the other side of that,

719
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,980
our ex-military people themselves.

720
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:44,570
we're constantly doing
stuff about revolving doors.

721
00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:47,900
So presumably quite a lot of it goes
to salaries for these cases as well?

722
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,250
Jane: Yes, defence ministers don't
tend to take the agreeable dinners,

723
00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:57,219
but they do after they leave working
for, the, government quite often

724
00:27:57,249 --> 00:27:59,589
take agreeable jobs in, in defence.

725
00:27:59,589 --> 00:28:01,756
So It's not always dinners.

726
00:28:02,416 --> 00:28:08,492
in this, the most recent, quarters,
list of hospitality, one person from

727
00:28:08,732 --> 00:28:14,372
the Air Force who's just received what
the list just says, pastries from,

728
00:28:14,372 --> 00:28:19,922
Saab who are currently bidding to
build the new, advanced jet trainers.

729
00:28:20,082 --> 00:28:22,902
Helen: What's the amount that it has
to exceed for it to be clearable?

730
00:28:22,902 --> 00:28:26,202
Is it like you have one Quaye on, does
that trip a wire or is this guy being

731
00:28:26,202 --> 00:28:27,777
like, someone's loading up a truck full

732
00:28:27,777 --> 00:28:28,497
Jane: of repairs?

733
00:28:28,497 --> 00:28:31,962
I think it's, gotta be a fair
few pastries to make the list.

734
00:28:31,992 --> 00:28:32,532
Helen: I respect that.

735
00:28:32,566 --> 00:28:32,622
It's

736
00:28:32,622 --> 00:28:33,852
Adam: an entire branch of Greg's.

737
00:28:35,140 --> 00:28:39,580
Jane: so another of the issues tends
to be constantly changing and buying

738
00:28:39,580 --> 00:28:43,900
very bespoke things, but then changing
your mind about exactly how bespoke

739
00:28:44,105 --> 00:28:44,405
Helen: the thing.

740
00:28:44,405 --> 00:28:46,900
But that's so interesting because
that then sounds a bit like what's

741
00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:48,280
been the problem with HS two.

742
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:48,610
Exactly.

743
00:28:48,610 --> 00:28:51,520
Which is we could have built just really
cheap railway, like in the way that

744
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,730
other countries have done, but no, we
must not only must we respect the bat

745
00:28:54,730 --> 00:28:58,870
and the newt, but we must also have
the most amazing new bespoke stuff.

746
00:28:58,900 --> 00:28:59,230
Yes.

747
00:28:59,260 --> 00:28:59,590
So this

748
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:59,600
11-MIX-260713_1406: is

749
00:28:59,745 --> 00:29:02,620
Andy: put it in the tunnel for the first
50 miles, but the tunnel has to be a, one

750
00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:04,180
of a kind tunnel we've never built before.

751
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:05,920
Helen: Made of bats only.

752
00:29:06,340 --> 00:29:09,190
but that's interesting that's the
same disease, that procurement

753
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:11,560
disease that sort of played
our military procurement too.

754
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,490
Jane: So it's, possible a lesson has
been learned because we had a story

755
00:29:15,490 --> 00:29:20,350
in the current eye, which we in fact
headlined with positive defence story

756
00:29:20,350 --> 00:29:25,860
shock because, they could still go
wrong, but at the moment, the Army has

757
00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:32,070
bought 200 odd, Toyota Hilux, vehicles
off the shelf and they'll make some

758
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:36,960
modifications to them, but they're
actually just have gone shopping and

759
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,890
found a vehicle that works for once.

760
00:29:38,890 --> 00:29:38,935
So

761
00:29:38,935 --> 00:29:40,920
Andy: this is is this like
the pickup truck style?

762
00:29:41,490 --> 00:29:41,790
Yes.

763
00:29:41,790 --> 00:29:41,800
Yeah.

764
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,130
And so you can put a couple of
tonnes of stuff probably in the back.

765
00:29:44,130 --> 00:29:44,970
The big heavy things.

766
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,740
Jane: they're used globally
by, unofficial militia.

767
00:29:49,980 --> 00:29:52,710
And the one of this is that's

768
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:56,250
Helen: like the AK47 The notoriously, the
thing that was amazing about the AK47 was

769
00:29:56,250 --> 00:30:00,450
that it, we only had a couple of moving
parts and therefore the choice of jihadis

770
00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:03,840
and people who couldn't do like expensive
machine servicing everywhere 'cause

771
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,700
it was just hard for it to go wrong.

772
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:08,250
And like I, the Toyota
Helix is a very robust

773
00:30:08,490 --> 00:30:08,760
Jane: Yeah.

774
00:30:08,910 --> 00:30:11,910
Notoriously one of the
most unstoppable vehicles.

775
00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:16,260
And, also because it's so global,
there's spare parts everywhere.

776
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,370
So if yours breaks down, you
can just Fight some militia

777
00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:22,140
and, get the parts off them.

778
00:30:23,490 --> 00:30:25,350
Andy: but you're saying this
is genuinely a good idea.

779
00:30:25,530 --> 00:30:27,990
It's not that we are retreating
to the state of militia power.

780
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:33,180
Jane: it's unlikely to quadruple in
budget is, Because there's a price

781
00:30:33,180 --> 00:30:35,520
for a,  an off the shelf vehicle.

782
00:30:35,670 --> 00:30:35,790
Yeah.

783
00:30:35,944 --> 00:30:42,844
so hopefully it won't 10 years time be
going, oh, they were never delivered

784
00:30:42,844 --> 00:30:44,314
and they only had three wheels.

785
00:30:44,314 --> 00:30:44,404
And

786
00:30:46,413 --> 00:30:49,623
Andy: in preparation for this episode,
I listened back to an interview,

787
00:30:50,013 --> 00:30:55,735
that we did with, Squarebasher,
Vickers, This was nine years ago.

788
00:30:56,245 --> 00:30:56,365
Jane: Yes, it would be.

789
00:30:56,425 --> 00:30:57,925
Andy: And all the same
problems were there.

790
00:30:58,135 --> 00:31:01,285
back then it was the Type 45 destroyers.

791
00:31:01,375 --> 00:31:01,465
Yes.

792
00:31:01,465 --> 00:31:03,145
Which had been built even then.

793
00:31:03,145 --> 00:31:06,205
And I think Britain has six of
those, HMS Dragon and so on.

794
00:31:06,265 --> 00:31:08,845
And they, at the time were known,
it was known that they couldn't

795
00:31:09,055 --> 00:31:10,555
go very well in warm water.

796
00:31:10,555 --> 00:31:12,235
They struggled a bit when
the water was too warm.

797
00:31:12,505 --> 00:31:17,335
So that might make deployment to
say the Middle East tricky low cold

798
00:31:17,335 --> 00:31:17,580
wall at the moment, or cold wall.

799
00:31:18,265 --> 00:31:22,495
And lo and behold, nine years later, we
have the war run breakout and they're all

800
00:31:22,675 --> 00:31:24,415
being repaired and refitted and things.

801
00:31:24,415 --> 00:31:26,395
And it takes nine days to get
one of 'em out of Portsmouth.

802
00:31:26,425 --> 00:31:26,515
Yes.

803
00:31:26,515 --> 00:31:28,982
So the problems, they, go way back.

804
00:31:29,065 --> 00:31:29,425
Jane: Yes.

805
00:31:29,610 --> 00:31:34,093
and mine hunting mothership that
we can send is, not specially built

806
00:31:34,093 --> 00:31:36,163
after a massive procurement exercise.

807
00:31:36,163 --> 00:31:39,943
It's a secondhand ship that we
bought from an offshore, oil

808
00:31:39,943 --> 00:31:41,503
and gas exploration company.

809
00:31:41,503 --> 00:31:42,073
Producer: Wow.

810
00:31:42,244 --> 00:31:43,714
Jane: HMS, Sterling Castle.

811
00:31:43,714 --> 00:31:46,294
Andy: And I believe there's
been an, announcement of a bit

812
00:31:46,294 --> 00:31:50,824
more money for drones and seeing
what's happening in Ukraine.

813
00:31:50,884 --> 00:31:55,024
They just, the unbelievable speed at which
the Ukrainian military get their drones

814
00:31:55,054 --> 00:31:56,914
into service, into testing into the field.

815
00:31:57,154 --> 00:31:57,994
They try them quickly.

816
00:31:57,994 --> 00:31:59,284
If it doesn't work, they change it.

817
00:31:59,644 --> 00:32:00,424
Is there anything Yeah.

818
00:32:00,514 --> 00:32:01,684
That we can learn here?

819
00:32:01,684 --> 00:32:02,524
It feels like we must be able

820
00:32:02,524 --> 00:32:02,584
Jane: to,

821
00:32:02,634 --> 00:32:06,534
Partly because we're doing work
with the Ukrainians for this.

822
00:32:06,534 --> 00:32:11,244
There's for instance the new, brake stop
drones, which are partly designed by

823
00:32:11,244 --> 00:32:13,224
the company that designs Formula e Ecar.

824
00:32:13,314 --> 00:32:17,484
So it's not a conventional defence
company, it's a tech engineering company.

825
00:32:18,024 --> 00:32:23,124
but yes, they're again, relatively
cheap and cheerful that, want to turn

826
00:32:23,124 --> 00:32:25,734
out hundreds of them for Ukraine.

827
00:32:25,734 --> 00:32:29,542
But the, tech will be
available for the UK military.

828
00:32:29,703 --> 00:32:33,213
Andy: If you were put in charge
of procurement or if you were

829
00:32:33,213 --> 00:32:35,103
made defence secretary, and
we'll probably all get a go,

830
00:32:35,853 --> 00:32:36,003
Jane: I'd

831
00:32:36,003 --> 00:32:36,603
Andy: be buying a lot

832
00:32:36,603 --> 00:32:37,653
Jane: of maps and scissors,

833
00:32:39,963 --> 00:32:42,723
Andy: but do you think procurement
just needs to change completely?

834
00:32:43,293 --> 00:32:46,143
it sounds like it is just so
bedevilled and it has been for so long.

835
00:32:46,893 --> 00:32:47,283
Jane: Yeah.

836
00:32:47,283 --> 00:32:53,114
I think they need to, seriously
consider who, we buy from and why.

837
00:32:53,443 --> 00:32:59,783
there's a lot of decisions that are
about, if we can give this company

838
00:33:00,673 --> 00:33:05,773
a 200 million pound contract, then
they'll build a factory in Wales

839
00:33:06,165 --> 00:33:07,725
but not quite pining that down.

840
00:33:07,725 --> 00:33:12,135
So factory in Wales doesn't necessarily
even happen, but we spend a lot of

841
00:33:12,135 --> 00:33:16,995
money on courting these very big
defence and engineering companies.

842
00:33:17,205 --> 00:33:19,875
Andy: is that because so much
defence has to be in country for

843
00:33:19,875 --> 00:33:22,215
obvious reasons, that you don't
want to just, you can't outsource

844
00:33:22,215 --> 00:33:23,085
it to the other side of the world.

845
00:33:23,085 --> 00:33:25,215
It's a national security thing,
so you have to have it here.

846
00:33:25,455 --> 00:33:28,065
Jane: you would think, but then
when you look at just how much,

847
00:33:28,515 --> 00:33:33,645
we spend with the US and how badly
some of that's worked around things

848
00:33:33,645 --> 00:33:36,225
like the, fighter jets and so on.

849
00:33:37,276 --> 00:33:40,126
obviously we have to really
spend with our allies, but

850
00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:40,876
Andy: yeah,

851
00:33:41,270 --> 00:33:46,340
Jane: not so much the case that we do
all our defence spending within the uk.

852
00:33:46,478 --> 00:33:50,258
Andy: I guess just supply chains are much
more global and it's, very hard to have

853
00:33:50,258 --> 00:33:51,518
a completely in-country supply chain.

854
00:33:51,518 --> 00:33:51,908
Of course.

855
00:33:51,938 --> 00:33:52,208
Jane: Yeah.

856
00:33:52,422 --> 00:33:58,242
there's a sort of early idea goes
into it that, if, us and the Italians

857
00:33:58,242 --> 00:34:01,752
and the Japanese, for instance,
all club together to buy a thing

858
00:34:01,842 --> 00:34:02,052
Andy: Yeah.

859
00:34:02,237 --> 00:34:04,037
Jane: then it'll be cheaper.

860
00:34:04,067 --> 00:34:07,727
But then it works out that you've
constantly got to deal with the competing

861
00:34:07,727 --> 00:34:13,075
wishes of three different governments, all
of who want to change the spec slightly.

862
00:34:13,424 --> 00:34:15,914
Andy: that's interesting because one of
these new   drone programmes has been

863
00:34:15,914 --> 00:34:19,754
announced this week, and it's giving
three suppliers a grand total of 3 million

864
00:34:19,754 --> 00:34:25,034
quid better, smaller, to develop low
cost interceptors to shoot down drones.

865
00:34:25,034 --> 00:34:28,544
But I think that is a five country thing,
but it feels like quite a small thing.

866
00:34:28,544 --> 00:34:28,634
Yes.

867
00:34:29,174 --> 00:34:29,234
Yeah.

868
00:34:29,534 --> 00:34:31,574
Which again, feels like a
step in the right direction.

869
00:34:31,752 --> 00:34:37,224
Jane: We seem to be better at doing
innovation on a small scale, but as

870
00:34:37,224 --> 00:34:39,954
soon as the resources get very big.

871
00:34:40,044 --> 00:34:40,254
Andy: Yeah.

872
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:41,124
Jane: Then this is your

873
00:34:41,124 --> 00:34:42,354
Helen: map fetish again, isn't it?

874
00:34:43,284 --> 00:34:46,014
all you need is a pair of
ladies bloomers with a,

875
00:34:46,164 --> 00:34:47,064
Andy: it sounds like we need to c

876
00:34:47,334 --> 00:34:47,844
Helen: zone in them.

877
00:34:47,904 --> 00:34:50,274
Andy: It sounds like scrap Hep
challeng is basically the model going

878
00:34:50,274 --> 00:34:51,669
forward for the British Armed Forces.

879
00:34:54,834 --> 00:34:57,954
Jane: if you look at what's
happening in Ukraine, scrap heap

880
00:34:57,954 --> 00:35:02,634
challenges, things that you can
repair are very important, right?

881
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:03,709
yes.

882
00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:12,166
Andy: regular listeners may know
that Adam specialises in audiology,

883
00:35:12,376 --> 00:35:15,286
graphy, and the Daily Mail, I never

884
00:35:15,286 --> 00:35:18,226
Adam: meant to, I just got dragged in.

885
00:35:18,286 --> 00:35:21,316
Helen: It's that on the sale of the
Telegraph, which finally has concluded.

886
00:35:21,776 --> 00:35:21,916
Adam: yeah.

887
00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:23,086
Andy: It's a huge week for you all over.

888
00:35:23,086 --> 00:35:23,326
Yeah.

889
00:35:23,596 --> 00:35:29,506
So the Harry trial, Harry, sorry, ET al
trial against the Daily Mail Group has

890
00:35:29,506 --> 00:35:33,376
come to a conclusion for any readers who
might have not been paying attention.

891
00:35:33,496 --> 00:35:34,096
How'd it go?

892
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:36,710
Adam: not good for Harry and the others.

893
00:35:37,130 --> 00:35:39,890
it's officially, Lawrence and
others versus associated newspapers.

894
00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:44,030
Lawrence in question being of course,
bar s Lawrence, mother of, murdered

895
00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:48,620
Steven Lawrence, who was pulled into
this, case by Harry specifically.

896
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:52,310
He sent her a text at the suggestion
of, the lawyer, David Sherborne,

897
00:35:52,970 --> 00:35:56,750
who he had met on holiday at
Elton John and, David Fur's house.

898
00:35:57,290 --> 00:35:58,700
they're also in this case as well.

899
00:35:58,820 --> 00:35:58,910
Gosh.

900
00:35:59,390 --> 00:36:01,490
so it's got all human life is here.

901
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:08,660
yeah, I have plough through all 436
pages of, Mr. Justice Nicklins, judgement

902
00:36:08,660 --> 00:36:13,940
, which came out last week, desperately
combing for a single crumb in there that

903
00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:16,880
might have given some comfort to Prince
Harry and his, and his fellow litigants.

904
00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:18,050
There really isn't one.

905
00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:22,700
It is the most comprehensive
dismissal of all of their claims.

906
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:22,760
Wow.

907
00:36:23,570 --> 00:36:25,520
I've ever seen, I think in
a, in, a legal judgement

908
00:36:25,580 --> 00:36:30,120
. 
Andy: So they were claiming in their
lawsuit that, all of these stories

909
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,660
in the mail over a very long period
of time had been based on illegally

910
00:36:33,660 --> 00:36:36,660
acquired information, whether that
was phone hacking or other methods.

911
00:36:36,878 --> 00:36:38,195
it was improperly acquired,

912
00:36:38,195 --> 00:36:40,745
Adam: unlawful information gathering
is the phrase that they used.

913
00:36:40,745 --> 00:36:43,325
So it covered a bit of
phone hacking, voicemails.

914
00:36:44,015 --> 00:36:46,685
at the start of the trial when it was
first announced, or the start of the case

915
00:36:46,685 --> 00:36:49,895
when it was first announced back in 2022,
there were allegations of burglaries

916
00:36:49,895 --> 00:36:54,425
to order of, recording of landline
phone calls, of microphones being stuck

917
00:36:54,425 --> 00:36:56,225
to people's windows to eavesdrop on.

918
00:36:56,855 --> 00:36:58,835
All of that dropped away in
the course of this trial.

919
00:36:58,835 --> 00:36:59,435
It's extraordinary.

920
00:36:59,435 --> 00:37:02,285
What they were left with essentially
was testimony, witness statements from

921
00:37:02,285 --> 00:37:06,845
a load of supposedly repentant phone
hackers and, private eyes who had

922
00:37:06,845 --> 00:37:11,195
done, very dodgy things on behalf of
other newspaper groups, or possibly.

923
00:37:11,195 --> 00:37:13,535
It then turned out when they changed
their stories partway through the

924
00:37:13,535 --> 00:37:15,515
litigation hadn't been at all.

925
00:37:15,815 --> 00:37:19,628
a lot of it depended on the testimony
of a guy called Gavin Burrows, a

926
00:37:19,628 --> 00:37:23,168
witness statement appeared at an early
stage in the litigation, in which

927
00:37:23,168 --> 00:37:25,658
he said he'd been doing all sorts of
work for the, the Daily Mail and the

928
00:37:25,658 --> 00:37:28,148
mail on Sunday, all sorts of the dodgy
stuff that we've heard about from the

929
00:37:28,148 --> 00:37:32,048
news of the world and, from Mirror
Group before he then turned tail on.

930
00:37:32,048 --> 00:37:34,418
That said, absolutely he'd never
worked for the Daily Mail and

931
00:37:34,418 --> 00:37:36,008
Mail on Sunday ever in his life.

932
00:37:36,728 --> 00:37:40,568
and that witness statement was actually
a forgery, which had been made by a

933
00:37:40,568 --> 00:37:43,118
couple of the paralegal or one of the
paralegals who was working on the case.

934
00:37:43,118 --> 00:37:45,998
A guy called Graham Johnson, who is
one of these repentant phone hackers.

935
00:37:46,508 --> 00:37:49,538
Andy: So what he turned from a
prosecution witness to a defence witness?

936
00:37:49,988 --> 00:37:51,653
Adam: in the end, neither
of them wanted him at all.

937
00:37:51,653 --> 00:37:51,853
Okay?

938
00:37:52,243 --> 00:37:55,058
Because he turned out to be,
such a liability in court.

939
00:37:55,238 --> 00:37:57,638
There was a lot of debate, which
I wrote, about in private at the

940
00:37:57,638 --> 00:37:59,978
time, over, over whether he was
gonna be allowed into court at all.

941
00:38:00,350 --> 00:38:04,250
there was an application partway through
to turn him into a, a hostile witness.

942
00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:05,960
and he would be treated as that.

943
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,740
and what Mr. Justice concluded in
the end was that his credibility

944
00:38:09,740 --> 00:38:11,930
was comprehensively undermined.

945
00:38:12,170 --> 00:38:16,460
His evidence was' argumentative,
evasive, internally inconsistent,

946
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,980
and at times extraordinary'.

947
00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:23,150
And it was, there were claims of, he
darkly hinted at working for MI six

948
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:24,560
and the Oh no, the secret services.

949
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:25,190
Oh, no.

950
00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:26,600
And all sorts of things.

951
00:38:27,115 --> 00:38:29,930
can, and can, I just say Gavin
Burrows is an unbelievably good

952
00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:31,520
name for an investigative hack?

953
00:38:31,580 --> 00:38:31,640
Yeah.

954
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:32,810
I don't think we've ever
made that point before.

955
00:38:32,810 --> 00:38:32,990
Helen: Hasn't.

956
00:38:32,990 --> 00:38:33,800
It's like a full sentence.

957
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:34,345
Andy: He's a sentence person.

958
00:38:34,610 --> 00:38:34,790
Helen: Yeah.

959
00:38:34,985 --> 00:38:35,145
Adam: Yeah.

960
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:39,480
He was a private investigator rather
than a journalist, and Yeah, yeah.

961
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:40,305
This was part of the problem.

962
00:38:40,445 --> 00:38:45,320
But this is just what ended up, what
really comes through in the judgement , is

963
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,430
that essentially these people started
off with a sense that their privacy

964
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:52,160
had been horribly invaded, which
in some cases it actually had been.

965
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:52,850
there were lots of stories.

966
00:38:52,850 --> 00:38:55,700
I felt very sympathetic reading through
it to Sadie Frost, who you remember,

967
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:56,990
was part of that Primrose Hill set.

968
00:38:57,050 --> 00:39:01,340
She was married to Jude Law and there were
all sorts of shenanigans and, a breakup

969
00:39:01,340 --> 00:39:03,110
of a marriage and messiness around that.

970
00:39:03,110 --> 00:39:05,240
She was friends with Kate Moss and
all these kind of people, and there

971
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:07,250
was some really intrusive reporting.

972
00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:09,400
I, I think everyone would have
to say  her life at the time.

973
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:12,760
Interestingly, even at the time,
the most intrusive story was about

974
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,140
her suffering an ectopic pregnancy
and being fronted up about that, by

975
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:18,310
a journalist called Katie Nichol,

976
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:18,980
Andy: fronted up.

977
00:39:19,343 --> 00:39:21,923
Adam: Fronted up as in, contacted and
asked her, asked to comment on it.

978
00:39:21,983 --> 00:39:22,043
Yeah.

979
00:39:22,973 --> 00:39:25,883
this story was, felt to be too intrusive,
never actually appeared at all.

980
00:39:26,008 --> 00:39:28,313
And, none of us would be any, the
wiser about it had this litigation

981
00:39:28,313 --> 00:39:30,023
not occurred kind of 20 years later.

982
00:39:30,516 --> 00:39:35,328
but then in other cases, the allegations
on which claims of unlawful information

983
00:39:35,328 --> 00:39:38,358
gathering were based, seemed so
slight as to be almost non-existent.

984
00:39:38,388 --> 00:39:42,498
And one of Baroness Lawrence's,
cases turned on two words, literally.

985
00:39:42,498 --> 00:39:45,618
So this was a report of there was
gonna be a full public inquiry

986
00:39:45,618 --> 00:39:47,028
into the murder of Steven Lawrence.

987
00:39:47,598 --> 00:39:50,658
a story which turned out to have been
given to Paul Dacre, then editor of

988
00:39:50,658 --> 00:39:52,428
the Daily Mail on very good sourcing.

989
00:39:52,638 --> 00:39:55,008
it was the home secretary Jack
Straw told him privately, they

990
00:39:55,008 --> 00:39:55,968
were all mates from university.

991
00:39:56,238 --> 00:39:56,718
He told him that.

992
00:39:56,718 --> 00:39:59,988
But there was a line in it, which said,
"the family will decide soon whether

993
00:39:59,988 --> 00:40:04,044
to bring a second private prosecution
for murder." And the claiming court

994
00:40:04,254 --> 00:40:09,984
was that the words "decide soon" meant
that they must have had a, a voicemail

995
00:40:09,984 --> 00:40:13,014
interception or something in order
that they, knew this was gonna happen.

996
00:40:13,254 --> 00:40:15,924
Now, the judge said, it couldn't
be the result of blagging or very

997
00:40:15,924 --> 00:40:16,824
unlikely to be the result of Blagging.

998
00:40:16,824 --> 00:40:19,854
He said "there was a perfectly
reasonable assumed timescale from

999
00:40:19,944 --> 00:40:21,084
inference and prior reporting".

1000
00:40:21,084 --> 00:40:23,454
Essentially there'd been other reporting
saying they were considering this

1001
00:40:24,324 --> 00:40:25,914
and 'decide soon' is one of those.

1002
00:40:26,064 --> 00:40:28,944
it's those phrases we use like
'recently', which can cover

1003
00:40:28,944 --> 00:40:30,114
a multitude of sin, isn't it?

1004
00:40:30,294 --> 00:40:31,974
it's just, it's a likely thing to happen.

1005
00:40:32,004 --> 00:40:32,244
Jane: Yeah.

1006
00:40:32,244 --> 00:40:36,024
Say we don't have a timescale for
this, but they'll have to decide

1007
00:40:36,024 --> 00:40:38,514
soon or they'll run outta time.

1008
00:40:38,604 --> 00:40:40,164
Helen: Can I ask about the cost?

1009
00:40:40,164 --> 00:40:43,494
Because I think one of the things
that came out was that, in the kind of

1010
00:40:43,494 --> 00:40:46,704
custody, essentially the male and Harry
have got one of the Lawrences each.

1011
00:40:47,334 --> 00:40:50,214
Steven Lawrence's dad wrote a
piece for the male saying they

1012
00:40:50,214 --> 00:40:51,384
stuck by us, been staunch.

1013
00:40:51,384 --> 00:40:55,584
Obviously the way that the male sees
it is that kind of Doreen Lawrence was

1014
00:40:55,794 --> 00:41:00,474
recruited by Harry to be essentially a sim
a much more sympathetic claimant than him.

1015
00:41:00,654 --> 00:41:03,924
And this wasn't celebrity Tittle tattle,
this was the mother of a murdered son.

1016
00:41:04,464 --> 00:41:06,954
Is she on the hook for, costs?

1017
00:41:06,984 --> 00:41:11,394
Because there was a suggestion that the
judge's ruling was so critical of Harry

1018
00:41:11,394 --> 00:41:15,594
Etal that their liable insurance or their,
court insurance wasn't gonna cover them.

1019
00:41:15,594 --> 00:41:18,144
And they were actually on the hook
for essentially punitive costs, which

1020
00:41:18,144 --> 00:41:19,554
the mail said about like 50 million.

1021
00:41:19,674 --> 00:41:21,204
Adam: It's not quite punitive.

1022
00:41:21,504 --> 00:41:23,484
the next stage of this, 'cause
it ain't over yet, is a cost

1023
00:41:23,484 --> 00:41:25,404
hearing, which is going over two
days at the end of the month.

1024
00:41:25,454 --> 00:41:28,754
, that is gonna involve not punitive
damages, but I rather, I love

1025
00:41:28,784 --> 00:41:31,604
this Mr. Justice can describe it's
not as the cost hearing, but the

1026
00:41:31,604 --> 00:41:35,864
consequentials hearing just real,
like there will be consequences.

1027
00:41:36,014 --> 00:41:36,074
Helen: Yeah.

1028
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,774
It does sound a bit from what you were
saying, that Justice Nicklin does not,

1029
00:41:39,524 --> 00:41:41,888
was not impressed with Harry's legal team.

1030
00:41:41,888 --> 00:41:43,328
Harry's advisors hacked off, or

1031
00:41:43,328 --> 00:41:44,858
Adam: he was absolutely
not impressed with him.

1032
00:41:44,858 --> 00:41:48,908
I spent a couple of days in court covering
this and he was, the, the attitude

1033
00:41:48,908 --> 00:41:52,508
was David Sherborne, who was the, the
barrister who was leading, leading

1034
00:41:52,508 --> 00:41:54,218
the, the celebrities, we'll call them.

1035
00:41:54,218 --> 00:41:55,028
That's case.

1036
00:41:55,598 --> 00:41:57,548
and miss, it was very, spiky.

1037
00:41:57,548 --> 00:41:58,808
He was openly critical of it.

1038
00:41:58,808 --> 00:42:02,528
And he, you essentially,
and this wasn't Trevor jury?

1039
00:42:02,958 --> 00:42:03,108
No.

1040
00:42:03,108 --> 00:42:04,938
This was this was the
judge sitting on his own.

1041
00:42:05,778 --> 00:42:07,698
he's incredibly critical of
the way that, they prosecuted.

1042
00:42:07,698 --> 00:42:11,578
He said essentially it started off
that, The accusation was that all

1043
00:42:11,578 --> 00:42:14,578
of these private detectives working
at arm length for the male group

1044
00:42:14,608 --> 00:42:16,626
had  been doing the unlawful stuff.

1045
00:42:17,043 --> 00:42:20,366
they had various ledgers which had
been acquired by Graham Johnson.

1046
00:42:20,371 --> 00:42:23,821
One of the paralegals involved in the
case also runs his own investigative

1047
00:42:23,881 --> 00:42:27,001
website and wrote a lot of this stuff,
a lot of which was paid for with

1048
00:42:27,001 --> 00:42:31,175
money that came from people like Max
Mosley, which was an issue in the case

1049
00:42:31,205 --> 00:42:33,924
obviously, that, that, came up and the
judge ruled that actually there was no

1050
00:42:33,924 --> 00:42:37,674
distinction between effectively gathering
evidence for the trial and gathering

1051
00:42:37,674 --> 00:42:39,324
journalistic material for his website.

1052
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:42,084
So when we talked about this
before, you were saying you're

1053
00:42:42,084 --> 00:42:43,074
not allowed to pay witnesses.

1054
00:42:43,074 --> 00:42:45,564
And they were, the argument by the
claimants was they weren't paying for the

1055
00:42:45,564 --> 00:42:48,564
witness statements, they were just paying
for these accounts in various books and

1056
00:42:48,564 --> 00:42:50,574
articles for the, for this internet site.

1057
00:42:50,964 --> 00:42:53,484
But just happened to coincide exactly
with what they then said in their witness

1058
00:42:53,484 --> 00:42:56,934
statements before, in some cases they
said, no, we never, ever said that at all.

1059
00:42:56,934 --> 00:42:57,684
And it's a forgery.

1060
00:42:58,502 --> 00:42:58,892
Helen: But Right.

1061
00:42:58,892 --> 00:43:02,402
But then the thing is that he was so
unimpressed with them that he could then

1062
00:43:02,402 --> 00:43:05,432
essentially say, you should never have
brought this, not like your vexatious

1063
00:43:05,432 --> 00:43:10,052
litigants entirely, but you've taken the
piss essentially, and I'm going to make

1064
00:43:10,052 --> 00:43:14,162
you pay a lot of money to the Daily Mail
beyond what your insurance will cover.

1065
00:43:14,252 --> 00:43:17,312
Adam: You've taken the piss
essentially is, in slightly

1066
00:43:17,312 --> 00:43:19,382
more legalese or what, he said.

1067
00:43:20,072 --> 00:43:23,123
he, said that eventually when all
of that fell away, there was a case

1068
00:43:23,123 --> 00:43:25,193
when journalists were actually on the
witness stand talking about how they'd

1069
00:43:25,193 --> 00:43:28,703
acquired these stories, where they were
Sherborne put direct accusations to

1070
00:43:28,703 --> 00:43:33,593
them that they had been involved in,
in, phone tapping or, voicemail hacking.

1071
00:43:34,403 --> 00:43:37,733
and he said that this was "serious
allegations not supported by a

1072
00:43:37,733 --> 00:43:40,973
properly pleaded case or evidence
capable of sustaining them".

1073
00:43:41,153 --> 00:43:44,663
Now that is, I think judge speak
for 'you are taking the piss'.

1074
00:43:44,668 --> 00:43:44,808
Yeah.

1075
00:43:44,933 --> 00:43:49,703
Essentially, and this will come back to
bite them in terms of, the, costs now,

1076
00:43:49,703 --> 00:43:53,273
because the mail are briefing that they've
spent about, that the total cost for

1077
00:43:53,273 --> 00:43:55,253
this case are around 50 million pounds.

1078
00:43:55,583 --> 00:43:58,583
this is money that will make Nigel
Farage's buy, buy up, isn't it?

1079
00:43:59,934 --> 00:44:03,414
they are also now applying for…
not punitive damages, but an

1080
00:44:03,414 --> 00:44:06,504
indemnity order, which essentially
says there isn't a cap on the costs.

1081
00:44:06,504 --> 00:44:08,994
They can charge to the other side
'cause it's such a comprehensive loss.

1082
00:44:09,414 --> 00:44:11,994
This is just a straightforward rule in
the, in, in the British legal system

1083
00:44:11,994 --> 00:44:15,084
that the losing side pays the costs of
the other side as well as their own.

1084
00:44:15,487 --> 00:44:19,128
what that means in indemnity audit will
allow, allow them to secure compensation

1085
00:44:19,128 --> 00:44:23,598
"to as full an extent as possible for
the outlay and trouble of litigation".

1086
00:44:23,808 --> 00:44:24,708
And that was enormous.

1087
00:44:24,978 --> 00:44:29,778
it essentially, there were several members
of staff at the senior members of staff at

1088
00:44:29,778 --> 00:44:34,338
the Mail who carried on in their jobs just
to deal with this litigation, including

1089
00:44:34,518 --> 00:44:38,778
their head of legal, Liz Hartley, and
Paul Dacre as well, who is up in a ey

1090
00:44:38,778 --> 00:44:40,018
somewhere at the top of the Daily Mail

1091
00:44:40,478 --> 00:44:41,868
.
Very, very happy at the moment.

1092
00:44:41,868 --> 00:44:41,898
I

1093
00:44:41,898 --> 00:44:44,388
Helen: recorded a video in which he
took the opportunity to personally

1094
00:44:44,388 --> 00:44:46,128
slag off Max Mosley now that he's dead.

1095
00:44:46,128 --> 00:44:46,188
Yeah.

1096
00:44:46,218 --> 00:44:49,848
Which I, could really tell that this
again, like this, much like Raja and

1097
00:44:49,848 --> 00:44:52,938
his daughter, this one was very personal
for Paul Dacre, who as I've said

1098
00:44:52,938 --> 00:44:56,688
before, had the murderers front page
on the wall of his office for years.

1099
00:44:56,778 --> 00:45:00,048
That to him was a sign that, people
said all these things about the Daily

1100
00:45:00,048 --> 00:45:02,938
Mail being racist, but here they'd
gone to bat for a young, , murdered

1101
00:45:02,958 --> 00:45:04,938
black guy killed by white thugs.

1102
00:45:05,118 --> 00:45:06,468
And he was so proud of that.

1103
00:45:06,468 --> 00:45:06,528
Yeah.

1104
00:45:07,218 --> 00:45:09,948
I think that's part of the reason
that they fought it so hard

1105
00:45:09,978 --> 00:45:13,818
Adam: and it was genuinely that and
the reporting by Steven Wright, the,

1106
00:45:13,932 --> 00:45:18,046
Crime Editor on, on, on the Lawrence,
case all the way through, it lasted

1107
00:45:18,046 --> 00:45:20,746
years before there were eventually
a  couple of successful prosecutions.

1108
00:45:21,107 --> 00:45:25,247
he was then directly accused and he spoke
actually quite movingly on the stand about

1109
00:45:25,727 --> 00:45:27,662
how, awful it was to be accused of this.

1110
00:45:28,232 --> 00:45:30,692
the allegation was put to him
that it, came from racism.

1111
00:45:31,142 --> 00:45:34,262
he pointed out that he has a black
wife and mixed race kids, and he

1112
00:45:34,262 --> 00:45:38,102
found this completely abhorrent and
that, that, is certainly the feeling.

1113
00:45:38,102 --> 00:45:40,442
This was genuine emotion, if
you can imagine such a thing

1114
00:45:40,442 --> 00:45:41,642
within Daily Mail towers.

1115
00:45:41,792 --> 00:45:42,332
Helen: I can imagine.

1116
00:45:42,572 --> 00:45:46,622
Justice, Nick at that point is more
like, could this, is just are you

1117
00:45:46,622 --> 00:45:49,502
still beating your wife level kind
of questions being put to people.

1118
00:45:49,682 --> 00:45:53,282
I this feels like a very, should we
say Ill-advised litigation strategy?

1119
00:45:53,282 --> 00:45:53,342
You

1120
00:45:53,342 --> 00:45:55,897
Andy: mean accusing the hacks themselves
of the, ill unlawful activity.

1121
00:45:56,132 --> 00:45:56,222
You

1122
00:45:56,222 --> 00:45:57,902
Helen: can't really go into
court and say, but you did

1123
00:45:57,902 --> 00:45:58,802
some phone hacking, didn't you?

1124
00:45:58,802 --> 00:45:59,972
That's how you got this story.

1125
00:46:00,152 --> 00:46:03,482
Without being able to then say, and here's
the notebook that has your number in it.

1126
00:46:03,482 --> 00:46:05,312
Here's the whatever, which is
what happened in some of those

1127
00:46:05,312 --> 00:46:06,512
news of the world cases, right?

1128
00:46:07,202 --> 00:46:10,852
They'd got, some hard evidence behind it,
their theory seems to have been, it's the

1129
00:46:10,852 --> 00:46:14,572
kind of thing that people like you did,
would've done, so you must have done it.

1130
00:46:14,932 --> 00:46:17,652
Adam: And in some cases, there were
actually, the names came up of, freelance

1131
00:46:17,652 --> 00:46:20,412
journalists doing bits for the, for
the Mail and being source the sources

1132
00:46:20,412 --> 00:46:23,712
of some of these stories who have
been mentioned in previous successful,

1133
00:46:24,042 --> 00:46:26,412
phone hacking litigation, and the
suggestion being that they must have

1134
00:46:26,412 --> 00:46:27,462
been doing it for the Mail as well.

1135
00:46:27,972 --> 00:46:31,062
judge was extremely clear that you
actually, for every single accusation

1136
00:46:31,062 --> 00:46:33,812
that was made, the claimants
had to argue a specific payment

1137
00:46:33,812 --> 00:46:35,072
and have actual evidence of it.

1138
00:46:35,072 --> 00:46:38,492
Nothing could be done by, by, by
inference or what he called propensity.

1139
00:46:38,702 --> 00:46:41,162
That, that, which is essentially
that argument of, that we're

1140
00:46:41,162 --> 00:46:42,037
all up to this sort of thing.

1141
00:46:42,256 --> 00:46:46,876
Andy: Does this change anything
about the way journalism is gonna

1142
00:46:46,876 --> 00:46:49,816
be done or maybe the way that
lawsuits are gonna be waged by this?

1143
00:46:49,846 --> 00:46:53,896
'cause this has been such a long process,
from when the phone hacking was happening.

1144
00:46:54,076 --> 00:46:57,106
now the, this is the
long tail of legal action

1145
00:46:57,106 --> 00:46:57,406
Adam: strategy.

1146
00:46:57,406 --> 00:46:58,096
It really, is.

1147
00:46:58,096 --> 00:47:02,416
Yeah, the answer to that is no, but
because it's changed already, essentially.

1148
00:47:02,686 --> 00:47:05,206
none of this stuff, I, there's a saying
there's stories about Sadie Frost

1149
00:47:05,206 --> 00:47:06,316
and are that very intrusive stuff.

1150
00:47:06,586 --> 00:47:07,996
It doesn't really happen anymore.

1151
00:47:08,236 --> 00:47:09,766
celebrities work in a different way.

1152
00:47:09,766 --> 00:47:12,046
They're putting their own stories
and curating their own lives out

1153
00:47:12,046 --> 00:47:14,896
on Instagram, and it's much, much
easier and cheaper for, newspapers

1154
00:47:14,896 --> 00:47:16,006
just to report things that way.

1155
00:47:16,006 --> 00:47:19,346
There isn't that sort of, none of
these stories were recent ones.

1156
00:47:19,676 --> 00:47:23,576
this is going back to that sort of classic
period of slightly wild West pre levison,

1157
00:47:23,636 --> 00:47:23,786
Helen: right?

1158
00:47:23,786 --> 00:47:26,696
You've got a class now of celebrities
who are influencers, who essentially

1159
00:47:26,876 --> 00:47:29,546
following more like the Katie Price
model, know that everything that they

1160
00:47:29,546 --> 00:47:32,696
do is for sale and that they, the only
reason they'd be annoyed with the tabs

1161
00:47:32,696 --> 00:47:35,546
is if they jumped the gun and meant that
they couldn't announce things themselves.

1162
00:47:35,756 --> 00:47:35,846
Adam: Yeah,

1163
00:47:35,876 --> 00:47:36,746
Helen: So do you think this is

1164
00:47:37,842 --> 00:47:40,992
Adam: unlawful I would be, very
surprised if any lawyer is prepared

1165
00:47:40,992 --> 00:47:44,112
to work on a conditional fee agreement
on any further cases like this.

1166
00:47:44,112 --> 00:47:46,062
And essentially there's no
one else to go after now.

1167
00:47:46,422 --> 00:47:48,222
we, had the, mirror litigation.

1168
00:47:48,222 --> 00:47:50,502
We had the litigation against
the News of the World.

1169
00:47:50,502 --> 00:47:54,642
We've had further litigation against
The Sun where we've had these bizarre

1170
00:47:54,642 --> 00:47:57,132
settlements where Rupert Murdoch has just
handed over enormous amounts of money

1171
00:47:57,132 --> 00:47:59,862
for people who claim that they had, that
their phones hacked by The Sun, but said

1172
00:48:00,012 --> 00:48:01,332
there's no admission of any guilt in this.

1173
00:48:01,332 --> 00:48:02,652
I just like giving money away.

1174
00:48:03,072 --> 00:48:04,662
Another person who should
contact, Nigel Frog.

1175
00:48:05,987 --> 00:48:08,537
this was essentially the la the
last of those big newspaper groups

1176
00:48:09,137 --> 00:48:11,867
who, were likely to have, be,
accused of these sorts of things.

1177
00:48:11,867 --> 00:48:14,177
And they have been
comprehensively cleared by this.

1178
00:48:14,357 --> 00:48:16,907
Helen: Can I ask whether or not there
is anything in the judgement  about

1179
00:48:17,267 --> 00:48:20,597
Some people will remember the private
eye players and our dramatic reading of

1180
00:48:20,597 --> 00:48:24,167
the Facebook messages between Harry and
Charlotte Griffiths in the Mail on Sunday.

1181
00:48:24,257 --> 00:48:25,277
Adam: Oh, Griffiths in the male on Sunday

1182
00:48:25,277 --> 00:48:25,907
Helen: age form.

1183
00:48:27,377 --> 00:48:27,767
does, it's

1184
00:48:27,977 --> 00:48:28,877
Adam: like she's in the room again.

1185
00:48:29,417 --> 00:48:30,287
She's come back,

1186
00:48:30,347 --> 00:48:33,347
Helen: which is, I have to say, which was
the moment I thought, I don't think this

1187
00:48:33,347 --> 00:48:35,027
is going very well for Harry, actually.

1188
00:48:35,207 --> 00:48:37,157
But did that come up at all?

1189
00:48:37,217 --> 00:48:40,187
Adam: Amazingly it doesn't because
those Facebook messages between

1190
00:48:40,187 --> 00:48:43,067
Sherlock Griffith and Prince Harry
were not actually cited in court.

1191
00:48:43,067 --> 00:48:45,617
They were put in as evidence,
but never actually we provided

1192
00:48:45,723 --> 00:48:48,963
Dramatic reading of them, which
was so, absent from that length.

1193
00:48:48,993 --> 00:48:49,488
Lengthy book I

1194
00:48:49,488 --> 00:48:50,208
Helen: might put him for a costume to

1195
00:48:50,748 --> 00:48:51,088
Adam: has had.

1196
00:48:51,088 --> 00:48:54,333
but we have, I would say in the, in the
Daily Mail on the, I think it was the day

1197
00:48:54,333 --> 00:48:57,513
after the judgement  came through, we have
had Charlotte Griff's own account of her

1198
00:48:57,513 --> 00:49:00,693
Knights of Cuddles and Film Nights, which
actually kicked off with a detail that

1199
00:49:00,693 --> 00:49:04,353
wasn't in those face messages, which when
she first met Prince Harry, he gave her a

1200
00:49:04,353 --> 00:49:07,593
small white pill and put it on her tongue
and said, now I know I can trust you.

1201
00:49:07,983 --> 00:49:09,783
Which she claimed probably paracetamol.

1202
00:49:09,813 --> 00:49:11,793
She took it straight out
again and hid it in a napkin.

1203
00:49:12,063 --> 00:49:13,983
Helen: That is in the greatest
tradition of, and then I made

1204
00:49:13,983 --> 00:49:15,328
more excuses and left, isn't it?

1205
00:49:15,628 --> 00:49:17,823
And I'm absolutely sure
it was Paracetamal.

1206
00:49:17,883 --> 00:49:18,873
Yeah, probably.

1207
00:49:18,873 --> 00:49:21,813
Adam: So I think that gives you a sign
of the sort of treatment which, Prince

1208
00:49:21,813 --> 00:49:25,083
Harry and I have to say, a lot of the
other, litigants in this case can expect

1209
00:49:25,083 --> 00:49:27,183
from the Daily Mail titles in future.

1210
00:49:27,513 --> 00:49:29,493
Andy: you'll be hearing
about it on page 94.

1211
00:49:29,493 --> 00:49:30,753
Thank you very much, Adam.

1212
00:49:31,503 --> 00:49:33,663
thanks too to Helen and Jane,
thank you to you for listening.

1213
00:49:33,853 --> 00:49:37,513
if you would like to get a copy
of Private Eye with many stories

1214
00:49:37,513 --> 00:49:41,653
about Toyota Hiluxes, about Type 45
destroyers, about Prince Harry, about

1215
00:49:41,653 --> 00:49:43,633
Rupert Low, about many, more things.

1216
00:49:43,633 --> 00:49:45,823
All the things our colleagues,
brilliantly write about.

1217
00:49:45,943 --> 00:49:47,143
It is available in shops.

1218
00:49:47,143 --> 00:49:51,583
It's also available@privatehy.co.uk
where  subscriptions are even

1219
00:49:51,583 --> 00:49:53,773
more reasonably priced than a
single issue of the magazine.

1220
00:49:54,493 --> 00:49:55,153
that's it for now.

1221
00:49:55,153 --> 00:49:58,453
The only person who remaining to thank is
Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.

1222
00:49:58,483 --> 00:49:59,863
Thank you to Matt, and bye for now.

1223
00:50:00,011 --> 00:50:00,911
Helen: They're so cheap.

1224
00:50:00,911 --> 00:50:04,416
You could also afford to pay to have
Nigel Far read it out to you on cameo.