00:00:00:03 - 00:00:23:01
Speaker 1
Today we are talking about one of the most difficult symptoms that people with ADHD struggle with, but that we never talk about. It's our difficulty with memory. We are going to talk about the different types of memory, how it affects ADHD as people with autism, people with HD, and what the hell we should do about it.

00:00:23:02 - 00:00:26:23
Speaker 2
Welcome to Late Bloomers where we are getting our lives together.

00:00:27:00 - 00:00:29:03
Speaker 1
What am I meant to say here?

00:00:29:05 - 00:00:30:04
Speaker 2
What you've done there.

00:00:30:05 - 00:00:41:20
Speaker 1
Eventually brought to you by our amazing sponsor, Loop Earplugs. I just got to say a quick backstory. Why? We're doing a memory episode today.

00:00:41:21 - 00:00:43:23
Speaker 2
Okay, I don't know this. Do I?

00:00:44:02 - 00:00:48:16
Speaker 1
You do when I start talking. So recently, we've been playing a lot of golf.

00:00:48:21 - 00:00:50:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. We have. Yeah.

00:00:50:02 - 00:01:11:23
Speaker 1
I've been down the driving range at least once or twice a week for three months. I'm a complete beginner. Rich is really amazing and has played since he was very young and the whole family has got into golf. So I've been practicing at the range. I've gone from not being able to hit the ball to like doing okay, and I played my first nine holes last week.

00:01:12:00 - 00:01:14:17
Speaker 2
Did very well, thanks.

00:01:14:19 - 00:01:44:17
Speaker 1
And something happened on those nine holes that reminded me why memory is a part of the ADHD struggle, the disability, if you want to use that language. And it's something that we haven't spoken about on the pub before. So basically at the beginning of every hole, you put a little T into the ground, you put your ball on top and then you hit it and you're meant to then pick up your tea and put it in your pocket.

00:01:44:18 - 00:01:48:01
Speaker 2
Well, it makes sense. Otherwise you go through a lot of T's.

00:01:48:06 - 00:02:13:00
Speaker 1
So I forgot on hole one. And Lily, my little step kid, was like, oh, he gave got you rolled my eyes. 02I forgot my tea. Oh free I forgot my tea. For I forgot it on every single hole. Now bearing in mind I hit the ball and walk away. And she goes, oh, you've forgotten again. And I'm like oh my God.

00:02:13:00 - 00:02:22:10
Speaker 1
And I feel crippling shame. I'm embarrassed. I can't believe I've forgotten. And that is not enough to get me to remember. Ten minutes later.

00:02:22:11 - 00:02:26:18
Speaker 2
It is. I was going to say it's ten minutes between tea shots as well.

00:02:26:20 - 00:02:36:04
Speaker 1
I mean, it was it was embarrassing. It was weird. And it also highlighted to me quite how bad my memory is.

00:02:36:05 - 00:02:50:06
Speaker 2
Oh, interesting. You say it's embarrassing, but that's that's yours. We were we were laughing about it. I think at one point you were like, how do I survive as an adult in this world? And we just laughed. And it's like, well, you've got me and Lily to help.

00:02:50:08 - 00:03:19:10
Speaker 1
That's it. So this is the memory episode. We're going to talk about what memory actually is, the different types of memory and the struggles that ADHD, autistic and people have, but also where they might excel because memory isn't just one thing. As always, we're kind of talking about patterns of behavior that is mentioned in research. This won't apply to everybody, so take it with a pinch of the good stuff.

00:03:19:15 - 00:03:27:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm interested in this because, you know, I'm sure we'll get to it. But some of your memories amazing. But I'm sure you'll cover that.

00:03:27:13 - 00:03:34:05
Speaker 1
Maybe I will. So first of all, we're going to lay out six different types of memory.

00:03:34:07 - 00:03:37:03
Speaker 2
What? They're six to what? No.

00:03:37:05 - 00:03:38:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. Ready?

00:03:38:10 - 00:03:38:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:03:38:20 - 00:03:41:02
Speaker 1
Number one working memory.

00:03:41:06 - 00:03:41:20
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:03:41:21 - 00:03:46:22
Speaker 1
So that's kind of the brain's sticky note. Like the little things that you need to remember on the go.

00:03:46:23 - 00:03:52:19
Speaker 2
Like, is that, like emptying laundry and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

00:03:52:23 - 00:03:57:04
Speaker 1
So. Well, no, because that's actually prospective memory, which I'm getting to.

00:03:57:05 - 00:03:58:08
Speaker 2
All right.

00:03:58:10 - 00:04:24:12
Speaker 1
It's like if someone's giving you verbal instructions, if someone's giving you directions on the street, it's being able to remember the four directions and hold that in mind. If someone says, oh, can you just remember this number, being able to remember a few numbers to type it into your phone. And it's also if you're completing a task, it's where you remembering where you are in the task.

00:04:24:14 - 00:04:29:23
Speaker 2
So going into a supermarket with three things to get, remembering those three things when you're in the truck. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

00:04:29:23 - 00:05:01:00
Speaker 1
It's that kind of like active memory that you're currently using. Okay, okay. Number two is prospective memory prospective. Yeah. Which is remembering to remember it's something remembering something in the future that you want to remember. So what you just said about laundry. Yeah. That's actually prospective memory, right? There's laundry I need to take out in three hours. You need to remember in three hours to remember that.

00:05:01:02 - 00:05:08:23
Speaker 1
And this might be taking meds. It might be replying to a text later. It might be I need to get milk or butter.

00:05:09:00 - 00:05:09:14
Speaker 2
Interesting.

00:05:09:14 - 00:05:48:13
Speaker 1
So it's that slight future memory. Number three is episodic memory okay. Which is memory of experiences. So your memory of your wedding, your first day of school, your first concert and just being able to recall what that was like. It's like autobiographical memory. Number four is semantic memory, right? Which is the brain's encyclopedia. So this is for facts, knowledge, info, random stuff.

00:05:48:13 - 00:05:55:17
Speaker 1
It might be song lyrics, it might be all the pokemons. It might be every Taylor Swift album or it might be football stats.

00:05:55:18 - 00:05:58:24
Speaker 2
Okay. And what's that one called? Semantic memory.

00:05:59:00 - 00:06:01:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's important you remember these.

00:06:01:18 - 00:06:03:03
Speaker 2
All right.

00:06:03:05 - 00:06:10:07
Speaker 1
Number five is procedural memory, which is skills that become automatic because you do them so.

00:06:10:07 - 00:06:11:22
Speaker 2
Much driving.

00:06:11:24 - 00:06:16:24
Speaker 1
You of driving I unfortunately lost my license. Not me swimming.

00:06:17:01 - 00:06:17:23
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:06:18:00 - 00:06:19:09
Speaker 1
Typing on a keyboard.

00:06:19:10 - 00:06:24:03
Speaker 2
Riding a bike. That's where the phrase is. Just like riding a bike comes from. Exactly. This kind of memory.

00:06:24:04 - 00:06:48:01
Speaker 1
Exactly. Procedural memory. It's where your body, just like your body is remembering to do it. Automatic. You don't have to try and recall those skills. And finally, we've got emotional memory, which is how experience is. And people felt in the past and being able to easily recall that. So it's more feelings based over facts.

00:06:48:02 - 00:06:56:09
Speaker 2
And this is where maybe someone would say, I'm going on holiday to create memories because you remember the joy of maybe a holiday or an experience. Yeah.

00:06:56:10 - 00:07:02:06
Speaker 1
Are you gay? To create memories? Yeah. Do say that. So that's just six types of memory.

00:07:02:07 - 00:07:03:16
Speaker 2
I've forgotten them all.

00:07:03:18 - 00:07:20:23
Speaker 1
Don't worry. I've got them all written down. So we're going to talk about the struggles. And we know that ADHD struggles with memory. But they can also have episodes of great memory. And autistic people can struggle as well, even though normally we tend to assume.

00:07:21:00 - 00:07:27:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'll definitely be I'll struggle with different memories to you, I think so.

00:07:27:11 - 00:07:36:10
Speaker 1
The ADHD biggest memory I don't even want to say challenges because these are life rulers.

00:07:36:12 - 00:07:40:12
Speaker 2
And it's not really a challenge. Like you can't do it.

00:07:40:14 - 00:07:50:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Challenge implies you could get better. Yeah. No, it ain't happening. Like you can try everything. It ain't happening. It's two types of memory which is working memory.

00:07:50:21 - 00:07:51:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:07:51:06 - 00:08:02:06
Speaker 1
And prospective memory. So that immediate recall, verbal instructions being given, remembering where you are in a task, remembering where you've just put your phone.

00:08:02:11 - 00:08:09:20
Speaker 2
I would also maybe say and hear me out like your procedural memory isn't very good.

00:08:09:21 - 00:08:10:07
Speaker 1
Well, you.

00:08:10:07 - 00:08:12:20
Speaker 2
Wait either are we are we get into that.

00:08:12:21 - 00:08:13:09
Speaker 1
We're getting.

00:08:13:09 - 00:08:14:19
Speaker 2
To that. Okay.

00:08:14:21 - 00:08:23:20
Speaker 1
So obviously working memory for me is so it's so frustrating.

00:08:23:21 - 00:08:25:04
Speaker 2
This is picking up your tea.

00:08:25:05 - 00:08:26:18
Speaker 1
What, leaving cups of tea.

00:08:26:19 - 00:08:35:12
Speaker 2
No. The teaser for the golf. My God, you've already forgotten because that's their ten minutes apart. You're actively. That's that's not a that's not.

00:08:35:13 - 00:09:08:19
Speaker 1
I got it already. Forgot that I just told a whole story about perfect example. So let me try and explain it as best I can. Working memory struggles in ADHD is like writing stuff you need to remember on a whiteboard, while someone else is actively wiping away what you've written. Yeah. So you're, like, desperately trying to take notes and write it down, but then it just goes and we see that, like all the time with me.

00:09:08:19 - 00:09:09:02
Speaker 1
Right?

00:09:09:03 - 00:09:19:09
Speaker 2
Well, you're left handed. So that visual representation is brilliant because you could be wiping it away yourself with your own hand whilst writing it.

00:09:19:11 - 00:09:32:17
Speaker 1
That's it. So and you know, it's just such a good example is saying, oh, excuse me, can I have directions? You will not. Even if there's three directions you will not recall number one, like it's just gone. It's been erased.

00:09:32:17 - 00:09:47:04
Speaker 2
But you know that about yourself. So you will never ask anyone for directions. Not now at all. You might phone me and stay on the phone whilst you get to your destination, but there's no way you would stop someone on the street and say.

00:09:47:06 - 00:10:11:19
Speaker 1
Not anymore. I did for a long time because you. Here's the other crazy thing about having a bad memory. You forget that you have a bad memory because you have a bad memory. So every time ask for directions. I'll remember this time, like, you know that thing with the golf tee? You forget every time, no matter how painful it was, no matter how emotional I felt that eight times I've forgotten, I don't remember on the ninth.

00:10:11:20 - 00:10:16:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, like nothing and nothing goes in to this.

00:10:16:01 - 00:10:36:05
Speaker 2
Well, that's why I was sort of questioning. And again, I don't want to jump the gun. We'll get to it. But where where the differences between like the golf tee, could that become procedural memory if you do it enough times because you do the same thing every time you hit the ball and bend over and put your tee up, it's like, could that become muscle memory?

00:10:36:06 - 00:11:04:02
Speaker 1
Maybe we'll find out. Okay, we'll keep you posted. So then obviously there's prospective memory. And I think this is probably the one working memory causes the most frustration. Prospective memory causes the most shame. Working memory. Well, where's my phone? What did they just say? I forgot it's that instant forgetting. That's just infuriating. Prospective memory is when you forget birthdays.

00:11:04:04 - 00:11:21:03
Speaker 1
Anniversaries? Yeah. You said you were going to meet someone in London and you've double booked. You forget to take your medication, you forget to take washing out, but you forget things that you really, really need to and want to remember.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:50:01
Speaker 2
And I think this makes loads of sense because you're you're working memory. If that was decent, you would be able to use things like alarms, reminders, calendars to help your perspective memory. But because both are a struggle, like you'll think to yourself, oh, I've got remember anniversary? Let me put it in my phone notes or calendar and alarm and you'll forget to do that.

00:11:50:02 - 00:11:50:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:11:50:13 - 00:12:04:11
Speaker 2
So I would imagine there's loads of people that have got poor perspective memory, but they're good. I'm just visualizing some people where everything's in the calendar because they know they won't remember, but they're working. Memory must be good because.

00:12:04:12 - 00:12:23:19
Speaker 1
They able to remember it to fill the calendar. Yeah. And executive function, I guess that is like the administration, the organization of your external memory. That's that's so interesting. But yeah, for think about us. My working memory we laugh at I frustrate you probably how much I lose my phone I I've.

00:12:24:00 - 00:12:39:10
Speaker 2
It's not even a frustration, babe. Like I can't I can't fathom it. I don't know how it's possible for you to lose your phone as much as you do. And I'm not talking about a few times a day. I'm talking about a few times every ten minutes.

00:12:39:12 - 00:12:40:03
Speaker 1
Like it's.

00:12:40:09 - 00:12:42:13
Speaker 2
All the time.

00:12:42:15 - 00:13:00:05
Speaker 1
Like, yeah. Anyway, moving on. ADHD people can have brilliant memories. Can you believe it? Like, I was stunned to sort of read about the different types and then relate it to me because I just assume I have a horrendous memory.

00:13:00:06 - 00:13:02:02
Speaker 2
No, I'm not surprised.

00:13:02:04 - 00:13:05:18
Speaker 1
So semantic memory.

00:13:05:20 - 00:13:07:17
Speaker 2
Remind us what that is, please.

00:13:07:18 - 00:13:39:15
Speaker 1
This. Even though I've written these cards, I've been reading about it. I've forgotten the brains encyclopedia lyrics, Pokemon, every Taylor Swift album, football stats. It's your own version of stats. Now with ADHD people, it's where their interest is. They will remember facts, random things, how to get places. If they were incredibly interested in that thing. Yes.

00:13:39:17 - 00:13:48:09
Speaker 2
So like song lyrics, you remember all of your own. You do not remember anyone else's song. Song lyrics.

00:13:48:13 - 00:13:49:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:13:49:03 - 00:13:50:13
Speaker 2
You always sing the wrong words.

00:13:50:14 - 00:13:51:06
Speaker 1
Yeah I did.

00:13:51:07 - 00:14:01:11
Speaker 2
I love the determination though, because you won't just stop singing. You'll. You'll just feel it. Because I guess you're a songwriter. You'll just fill it with what you think it should be rather than what it is.

00:14:01:12 - 00:14:28:23
Speaker 1
That's the ADHD experience. Just fill life with what you think it should be rather than what it is. Yeah. So because I'm super interested and attached to and in the process with with lyrics I can remember for me it might be books or things to do with psychoanalysis or personal development. I can remember incredible amounts of information. Yeah, but it wouldn't be in that kind of normal encyclopedia like way.

00:14:28:23 - 00:15:03:05
Speaker 1
I'm not not very good at other facts. The other memory is emotional memory. So people with ADHD blew my mind. Can recall the actual feeling. So if somebody was really kind to you that you can feel that kindness, if somebody was praised you for something, you remember that pride that you felt equally someone was horrible to you or rejected you.

00:15:03:07 - 00:15:16:21
Speaker 1
You can still feel that way when you recall that person. So for people with ADHD who are often very highly sensitive, emotional memories from the past remain alive.

00:15:16:23 - 00:15:17:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:15:17:15 - 00:15:38:20
Speaker 1
And that rings true for me. I'm still hurt by things that happened when I was six. And they're real and their physical, they are emotional memories. And it really made me think about RSD, because all of our rejections are, in a way, remembered and still alive within us.

00:15:38:21 - 00:15:39:11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:15:39:12 - 00:15:43:00
Speaker 1
Almost reacting to those.

00:15:43:02 - 00:15:54:00
Speaker 2
I don't think I'm very good at this one. I don't I think this is where maybe I would struggle. Emotional memory. Working memory pretty good. The other one.

00:15:54:02 - 00:16:17:00
Speaker 1
Is it. We'll find out now. Also, this is so crazy because you were like, I think procedural memory would be bad for me. Yeah. Now procedural memory for ADHD people can actually be really good, but it's not on the things that you would expect.

00:16:17:02 - 00:16:33:21
Speaker 2
Like cleaning. That's what sort of like and I'm not being mean when you clean something. It just when I perceive you doing it, it's like you're doing it for the first time every time, no matter how many times you've done it. That's why I may be questioned.

00:16:33:23 - 00:16:56:11
Speaker 1
And that's why we literally have an entire app dedicated to breaking cleaning into steps and have live body diving sessions. And yes, I don't have it with cleaning. I don't have it with cleaning my teeth. Yeah, I do have it with swimming and I do have it with my brain's gone completely empty. But like, definitely, there's definitely a few things I do riding a bike.

00:16:56:17 - 00:16:57:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:16:57:03 - 00:17:22:16
Speaker 1
I haven't done it for a while, but I'm pretty sure I'd remember how. But where procedural memory shows up in it's similar to semantic is when we are really, really, really, really interested in something that we do it over and over and over again. We end up with a procedural memory automatic in something that for other people would be so difficult.

00:17:22:19 - 00:17:45:22
Speaker 1
So for me that is songwriting. It is easier for me to write a song than it is to clean the kitchen. It takes less mental effort. Give me a word. Tell me a situation. I could write you a song on the like on the spot. It would just come out without any thinking. Automatic cleaning the kitchen. Not as a procedure.

00:17:45:24 - 00:17:51:14
Speaker 1
Why? Because I've written thousands and thousands of songs.

00:17:51:16 - 00:18:19:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Would you say, though, that? So that makes perfect sense to me. Crystal clear that that's obviously a mental task, the writing of a song. Is there anything physically that you swimming? So. Right. I've got some I've got I'm full of questions right now because swimming is one that makes perfect sense. Once you've learned how to swim or ride a bike, you always know how to swim or ride a bike.

00:18:19:13 - 00:18:47:06
Speaker 2
But you could say, like my challenge. I'm not saying I don't know whether this is correct or not is that that's the case for every human. So like think of walking, for example, for those that are fortunate enough to be able to walk. Everyone remembers that once they've done it. So like, I don't know, there'll be there'll be like a spectrum, weren't there, of what are the things that is just naturally, instinctively.

00:18:47:07 - 00:19:05:13
Speaker 1
I guess it's have to like you have to practice walking. If you're going to get in water, you have to practice swimming like you. You are forced into practice, therefore allowing it to become a procedure. Because we struggle with cleaning, we don't do it. So you never force.

00:19:05:14 - 00:19:05:20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:19:05:21 - 00:19:12:03
Speaker 1
Okay, maybe if I was cattle prod it every day into cleaning. Eventually I'd understand stats.

00:19:12:04 - 00:19:13:00
Speaker 2
I'm not going to count.

00:19:13:01 - 00:19:14:00
Speaker 1
Let's not try that.

00:19:14:01 - 00:19:15:06
Speaker 2
No, I think that'd be.

00:19:15:06 - 00:19:23:13
Speaker 1
Me, but yeah. Mind blown. Yeah. So you're going to remember all the times you were criticized in HD detail?

00:19:23:15 - 00:19:24:04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:19:24:05 - 00:19:30:03
Speaker 1
And also probably some really like random skills that you've developed that have become automatic.

00:19:30:05 - 00:19:32:07
Speaker 2
That's crazy right. That's really insightful.

00:19:32:07 - 00:19:56:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. So before we get to autism and memory, a very quick word from our sponsor. The Late Bloomers podcast is sponsored by the Amazing Loop Earplugs, something that me and Rich use all the time and absolutely love. We have our own website with loop that has all of our favorite products, and all of our listeners can get 20% off.

00:19:56:04 - 00:20:19:05
Speaker 1
You can find the link in our show notes or even in our social media bios. We've recently added this amazing loop link because, you know, we often put it on the wrong way around. We often forget all. We lose them. So the loop link is there to make sure that you never lose your loop earplugs again. Look at that.

00:20:19:06 - 00:20:22:00
Speaker 2
Lovely. Right. Let's get back to the episode, shall we?

00:20:22:01 - 00:20:33:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Hold on. I'm ready. Okay, so for autism, it's basically the complete opposite of ADHD, which might not be a surprise.

00:20:33:23 - 00:20:36:03
Speaker 2
I yeah, I don't think it is a surprise to me.

00:20:36:04 - 00:20:42:23
Speaker 1
So if we think about the biggest ADHD struggles, which is working in perspective.

00:20:43:00 - 00:20:43:24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:20:44:01 - 00:21:00:06
Speaker 1
Those can actually be incredible. You can have incredible instant recall for numbers, conversations, things you've been told. If you think about your whiteboard, no, nobody's wiping it off like you get to. Right.

00:21:00:07 - 00:21:20:16
Speaker 2
Well, yeah, I would say that not only is my working memory very good, and it gives me the ability to, you know, facilitate my own work in memory. I also, in a lot of cases, am your working memory as well when it comes to packing to go away or charging your phone or whatever.

00:21:20:22 - 00:21:35:15
Speaker 1
So I'm just over here wiping off my own whiteboard with my own hand. And you've got two columns. Yeah, but both of us. Yeah. And and then obviously prospective memory, remembering to remember.

00:21:35:17 - 00:21:36:04
Speaker 2
I'm fine with.

00:21:36:05 - 00:21:51:02
Speaker 1
Autistic people would also be good at I guess because they've got that working memory. You can use a calendar, write stuff down. The brain just somehow decides to remember things at the right time. I've got what must it be like to live like that?

00:21:51:05 - 00:21:51:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:21:51:20 - 00:22:10:04
Speaker 1
But there's also some other areas where autistic memory can be exceptional. That is semantic memory. So it's again that facts, history, trivia. You can be information stores in so much detail.

00:22:10:08 - 00:22:14:15
Speaker 2
Yep. Only again probably only things that I've been interested in.

00:22:14:16 - 00:22:44:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's probably a similarity between the sort of neurodivergent, if you're really interested in something. And even if you think about the autistic stereotypes of somebody that knows all the planes and trains solely because they love that and are interested in that. Yeah. And also episodic. So actually autistic people can have very vivid memory recalls from experiences where people sat, what they were wearing.

00:22:44:10 - 00:23:03:12
Speaker 1
And this really reminded me of psychics. I'm like obsessed of golf. So I had one round where I found pieces, and it was meant to take three shots to get the ball in the hole, and I took ten, which is not very good. And I'm meant to count my own shots, and I and I couldn't, and I kept forgetting.

00:23:03:12 - 00:23:24:18
Speaker 1
And you went, don't bother counting now. Count afterwards. And you went after you've done the round of golf. Just remember all your ten shots, I think. Count them up. I was like, are you joking? And I witnessed you doing that. You could just finish a hole and then go back and hit that there, that there. You could recall in almost perfect detail.

00:23:24:22 - 00:23:27:23
Speaker 2
I can recall not only my shots, but.

00:23:28:00 - 00:24:03:06
Speaker 1
My shots and Lily shots. So there's sort of yeah, another I guess skill or or something that's exceptional. Now you've also got amazing procedural, so you're just amazing. Everything procedural memory. Yeah. Now a big part of this is because of routines. People on the autism spectrum tend to love and favor routine. Routine is practice which builds procedural memory.

00:24:03:07 - 00:24:09:14
Speaker 2
What is is. So I don't want to be arrogant here, but.

00:24:09:16 - 00:24:13:22
Speaker 1
That's what someone says before. They're about to be arrogant. I've got the best memory in the world.

00:24:13:23 - 00:24:27:24
Speaker 2
No, I feel like this is. This is true. I'm pretty good at any sport that I try for any competitive anything. And I wonder if some of that is to do with procedural memory. Because once I've done it once.

00:24:28:05 - 00:24:28:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:24:28:22 - 00:24:44:04
Speaker 2
I will. I could go back to it 20 years later and people like we had a swimming race the other day. I was racing all the people in our derby team and I won it. I don't swim, I used to be a good swimmer and like stuff like that and football I like.

00:24:44:05 - 00:25:09:21
Speaker 1
So your body remembers. I think that is procedural. Yeah, memory. And that's really high in you. And we also see Sere playing golf and they're like, what is the mechanisms that I need to know to lock in to hit this shot. And then they remember. Yeah. Now autistic memory struggles. You called it straight away. Emotional was emotional memory.

00:25:09:21 - 00:25:24:05
Speaker 1
So where ADHD as are in excess you can struggle. Yes. Now can you explain why that was so obvious to you? Like.

00:25:24:07 - 00:25:53:09
Speaker 2
Well, it wasn't obvious. It was obvious that I was questioning it like, because and where I'm at is that I obviously do feel emotions in the moment. That's a bit of a whatever the phrase is to say. It's not accurate. Like about autistic. Yeah, it's a bit of a myth around autism. We do feel it, which is not very good at expressing it, but I don't think I'm good at remembering how I, how I felt it would all be.

00:25:53:10 - 00:26:17:11
Speaker 2
It would be linked to one of the other memories. I can't remember the name of it. I would remember who was where, who said what and what happened, but I wouldn't remember the emotions. But that that again, although that is a struggle, I could look at that as a bit of a positive when dealing with situations in business or whatever.

00:26:17:11 - 00:26:21:12
Speaker 2
I won't be emotionally led. I will be backed, led.

00:26:21:13 - 00:26:46:08
Speaker 1
I also think in personal life, if you look at both of our lives, we've both had a lovely mix of different tough experiences and traumas and things nobody would want to go through. I have been sort of haunted by some of those experiences. Whether it's death or betrayal, you aren't haunted. It's like I went through this thing that was tough.

00:26:46:08 - 00:27:03:05
Speaker 1
This happened, and now I'm here. And even to bring up childhood abuse. Yeah. Or divorce, you go back and you can describe the episodic. This is what happened here. But you don't fit. It's not alive.

00:27:03:06 - 00:27:23:00
Speaker 2
I agree even to the point where I can look at you stone cold in the face and be like, I wouldn't change anything in my life because I'm, I'm I'm happy where I am now, even. But if I was really emotionally led, I would think back to that. And it would be so painful and hurtful that if I had the ability to raise that from my life, I would.

00:27:23:02 - 00:27:27:00
Speaker 2
But I'm like, no, I, I wouldn't change anything.

00:27:27:02 - 00:27:53:18
Speaker 1
Because you're not living with the alive emotion. It's so interesting and I think it explains so much. And then this is super interesting. So we've said that actually you're working in prospective memories. Really good. But when overwhelmed, anxious or when routines change, those are the first to go.

00:27:53:23 - 00:27:55:07
Speaker 2

00:27:55:09 - 00:28:05:11
Speaker 1
And that rings so true. It's like the autistic memory relies upon the routine.

00:28:05:13 - 00:28:06:10
Speaker 2
Yep.

00:28:06:12 - 00:28:15:16
Speaker 1
You take the routine away. You put you somewhere with loud noises. You overwhelm you with stress. You can present like me.

00:28:15:21 - 00:28:35:06
Speaker 2
Well, it I would say it's not routine. It's a calm, nervous system, like anything. So. So if the routine goes, I'm no longer calm. If the house is a mess, I'm no longer calm. If I'm in a loud environment or loads of people talking to me, I can't access anything. Yeah.

00:28:35:08 - 00:28:44:05
Speaker 1
So almost to have an incredible memory. You must be calm. So no wonder you prefer staying in quiet environments.

00:28:44:07 - 00:28:45:18
Speaker 2
That's really interesting.

00:28:45:19 - 00:28:54:24
Speaker 1
Isn't it? What's good episode. So it's way I know I've learned so much. It's way more complicated. I also just have to shout out all the.

00:28:55:01 - 00:28:55:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, what?

00:28:55:18 - 00:29:12:04
Speaker 1
Because we're saying ADHD and autism are like opposites. We have these different strengths and we, by the way, have like a working theory that Cyr and Richards eldest might actually be PhD.

00:29:12:06 - 00:29:13:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, they're going for an ADHD.

00:29:13:13 - 00:29:37:09
Speaker 1
Because they seem to like be picking both. So if you imagine someone is dealing with both of those types of memory at the same time, so you could have this amazing factual memory like they do for Japan, but then lose their phone, forget laundry, forget their bag. They might remember their childhood, some of its emotional, some of its episodic.

00:29:37:10 - 00:29:43:24
Speaker 1
They might forget their lunch. They might remember every song lyric to Eminem, but then forget their passport.

00:29:44:01 - 00:30:11:21
Speaker 2
I wonder, right? So I obviously I am pretty certain I'm not audio PhD, I am autistic, I don't know, that is pretty firm on that. But when I like logically think about how people like some of the some of the opposites in my mind can't co-exist. Like I can't comprehend how you can be bad and good at something at the same time.

00:30:11:21 - 00:30:36:13
Speaker 2
So like I wonder if it goes in waves. I wonder if it's like because we were speaking to Ben Branson and he said he's already HD and he said, I, I like being autistic more than I do ADHD, and I wonder if it's rather than everything all at once. It's like your brain just just flits between the two rather than both at the same time.

00:30:36:14 - 00:30:38:03
Speaker 2
I don't know, it's fascinating.

00:30:38:04 - 00:30:48:05
Speaker 1
Like, do you get to choose which one wins? Like I'm being given verbal directions? Can I be in the autistic side? I'm trying to recall a deep childhood memory. Can I be like.

00:30:48:07 - 00:30:50:10
Speaker 2
I very much doubt you get to choose.

00:30:50:11 - 00:31:13:13
Speaker 1
Let us know in the comments. So look, just to sum it up, memory is way more complicated than I think any of us realize. Super interesting. We each have struggles, but also things that we're great at. And for people with ADHD in particular, it's very, very, very debilitating because that is your daily life.

00:31:13:15 - 00:31:23:15
Speaker 2
ADHD people. I feel like get a bad rep for this. Like it's a bit unfair because it's just that it would be broadened to you've got bad memory. It's not as simple as that, is it?

00:31:23:16 - 00:31:41:09
Speaker 1
No, you've got a bad working memory and prospective memory, but you might have it. Incredible. Yeah. Emotional memory. So I think the only thing you can do is not beat yourself up. And it's easy to say. It's harder to do. I struggle every day.

00:31:41:15 - 00:31:42:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:31:42:19 - 00:32:08:09
Speaker 1
Every day with memory is always there. Constantly losing, forgetting, misplacing. And it's like it's tough. And I just think go easy on yourself. And the biggest tip I could ever, ever give someone with ADHD is just assume that you have no memory. You have no memory. So if someone's telling something, write it down. If you really have to remember something, tell Alexa.

00:32:08:11 - 00:32:25:13
Speaker 1
Like externalize every single thing. Yeah. And you'll be okay. You will. Let us know in the comments. How's your memory? What resonated? What are your skills? What are your struggles? If you enjoyed the episode.

00:32:25:14 - 00:32:29:23
Speaker 2
Like, subscribe, follow, do everything that really helps. Support the channel.

00:32:29:23 - 00:32:33:02
Speaker 1
And don't forget to see us back next week.