Jayne Ray: Hi, everyone. I'm Jane Ray, and we're here for another episode of Joyous Journeys Over 60. And Andrea Stein, welcome.

Andreas Stein: Welcome, Jane. It's good to be with you again.

Jayne Ray: Virtually, right? The… for the…

Andreas Stein: Well, virtually, yes, but the it's kind of no, it's not the same, but comparable.

Jayne Ray: Well, and today's technology allows us to, you know, really have a great conversation, even though we're states apart from each other, which is good. Speaking of, you know, cultures that are far apart, you know, before we started recording, we had an interesting conversation about friendship.

Jayne Ray: And you told me that, you know, you grew up in Germany, and that the definition of friendship

Jayne Ray: is very different than how perhaps we use the word friend here in America.

Andreas Stein: Right. It was, you know, I don't know, culture shock may be too strong a word, but it definitely took some adjustments. And me, you know, if, in where I grew up in Germany, you know, if you would call somebody a friend.

Andreas Stein: it would really indicate, a close connection. It would go beyond, you know, let's play a game of tennis, or…

Andreas Stein: watch a movie together, and whatever. You know, it would really designate or describe a level of closeness, a level of, you know, openness, a level of, being there for one another, you know, above and beyond having a fun hour.

Andreas Stein: And, you know, then coming over, from, from Germany, my wife and I first lived in the Midwest, and…

Andreas Stein: Quickly found out that pretty much everyone is called a friend, you know, and even people you have met once for three minutes. Oh, he's my friend. I said what, you know, and it kind of confused me. I mean, and I don't mean necessarily in a negative sense of, you know, of course these people were all friendly and kind.

Andreas Stein: but at very best it was a you know a a person we would maybe meet occasionally you know and talk about what some something but there there wasn't always a true connection there so but I found out

Andreas Stein: Friendships are… Life giving. Friendships are very, very powerful at any stage of life.

Andreas Stein: And I think this may be even more true.

Andreas Stein: At, you know, the 60 years and older demographic, because, you know, professional relationships may kind of…

Andreas Stein: Become less, frequent.

Andreas Stein: And.

Andreas Stein: And friendships, to have friends, truly can be something that gives your life happiness and

Andreas Stein: Enjoy it, a reason to get up and a reason to travel, a reason to try something new, you know, and

Andreas Stein: friendships are not just, yeah, it's nice if I have a friend, and who cares if I don't?

Andreas Stein: Friends are are life giving.

Jayne Ray: You know there's so much to unpack there, because

Jayne Ray: You're right. I think we use the word friend

Jayne Ray: Casually, right? You know, social media has certainly made that.

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: you know, I'm gonna friend you on Facebook, or we're friends on Facebook, or you know.

Jayne Ray: Will you follow me? How many friends do you have? And some people, you know, kind of count their personal success by how many friends they have on social media.

Jayne Ray: You know, whether it's on Instagram and you're looking for followers, or even on Facebook. I mean, I always say, and I've said this on other episodes, some of the friends that I have on Facebook are friends that I've known for a very, very long time, but I haven't seen them.

Andreas Stein: Right.

Jayne Ray: you know, 14, 15 years old, and I'm delighted that we can keep in touch with each other, but we're not

Jayne Ray: close in the sense of we share our deepest, darkest secrets. I think it's very nice that we can share our travels, and we can share our family, and we can share our happiness, and even some of our challenges. I have a friend that lost her grandson last week in a terrible accident, and there were a lot of people, me included, who really came out and sent prayers and condolences.

Jayne Ray: You know, I think that was very, very important. But the deep friendships.

Jayne Ray: You know the hierarchy of friendships from acquaintance, and you know you don't use the word acquaintance, because it's almost denigrating to say, well, you're just an acquaintance.

Andreas Stein: Right.

Jayne Ray: You don't really count.

Andreas Stein: It's a very unemotional term. It almost sounds clinical, right? I mean, it's,

Jayne Ray: Alright, you're an acquaint.

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: So, so we call, we, you're right, we call everybody Franked.

Jayne Ray: but to develop the deep friendships.

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: lifelong friendships. Those are very, very special. And, you know, I want to say one more thing, because I don't know if in Germany it was the same thing, but, you know, when I was a 12, 13-year-old little girl, you know, you wanted to have your best friend.

Jayne Ray: Right. Your best friend, the person that you told your secrets to, the person you did the most. Maybe you got into mischief with, you know, we wanted a best friend.

Jayne Ray: And that person stood above all your other friends. And if somebody threatened your best friendship, which meant they were trying to kind of, you know, weave their way in to becoming your best friend's best friend. It was. It was painful. It was painful. And I think the inner child in all of us.

Jayne Ray: Still have some of that…

Jayne Ray: I don't know, uncertainty. You know, again, people are very blessed when they have lifelong friends that they've been just so close to, you know, sisters or brothers from another mother. You know, that's very unique. But I also think that, you know, as time goes by, even those friends, you know, start to fall apart.

Andreas Stein: You know, obviously, I don't know if there's a different level of friendships, but some friends are closer than others, right? I mean, what you share

Andreas Stein: with one friend, Would not be something you share with another friend.

Andreas Stein: You know, as you said, I mean, there's some friends…

Andreas Stein: You feel comfortable sharing stuff that could be used to hurt you, but you know this other person is close enough, caring enough, loving enough, whatever enough.

Andreas Stein: He or she is not going to do that. So, and that's special if it's safe enough to, to really share something that's, that might be raw. And other friends, you figure, you know what, I'll show you what I eat for dinner. I'll show you some pictures from my latest cruise excursion.

Andreas Stein: We'll be hanging out on the tennis court, or whatever else, and that's it.

Andreas Stein: You know, it's, it's, it's, it's still a true friendship, right? I mean, it's, it'

Andreas Stein: You're not sharing everything you would share with someone else. And, and I, I don't know, I mean, I think.

Andreas Stein: I don't know if it… maybe it's, too broad to say we need friends, you know, that are kind of a best friend, and friends who are just there. I play a round of tennis, we'll share a dinner together, talk about…

Andreas Stein: Politics or…

Andreas Stein: whatever else, ballgame, you know, and leave it there. And some others, you know what, we'll talk for 3 hours, and it feels like we have talked for 3 minutes, and we already talked about some pretty…

Andreas Stein: Personal stuff, and it feels good to unload.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, I think, you know, I would use the term contextual friends.

Andreas Stein: I love that term, yes.

Jayne Ray: Right? That are friends within context, particularly work friends. Like, I had friends during each of my jobs that I got close to, but when, you know, when we left the job.

Jayne Ray: the basis of our friendship changed. Not that our friendship was solely based on work, but we saw each other all the time, we had a lot of shared experiences, and so that context

Jayne Ray: was different than today's context. So there are certain friends that I would almost call them chapters. Like, I always like to say that I have chapters.

Andreas Stein: I like that.

Jayne Ray: That are all amazing chapters, but

Jayne Ray: most of those friends don't travel from chapter to chapter, right? It's like a book of short stories as opposed to a book that, you know, leads to an ultimate conclusion. There's a bunch of short stories in there, and all of them are very, very special. When you reach 60 or above.

Jayne Ray: I think there are a couple of of I don't know complications.

Jayne Ray: about friendships. There are those friends that you will… that you have carried through your… most of your life, right? Regardless of where that friendship started, the friendship is so deep.

Jayne Ray: That you really are siblings from another mother. That relationship is so, so close. And people that have that are very, very blessed. In some ways, it's a relationship that's even longer than your romantic relationship.

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: and sometimes more complicated and in some ways more threatening than your romantic relationships, right? And if they don't work out.

Jayne Ray: you know, the hurt can be can be very, very deep.

Jayne Ray: And then there were those friendships.

Jayne Ray: that you kind of pick up along the way, and and particularly over 60 when you're not working anymore. So you know, making new friends is not organic. It's not something that you happen to be in the same situation in the same place, and

Jayne Ray: you know. Hello! Let's be friends. Suddenly, now you have to work at making friends, and and that's a whole different experience, because

Jayne Ray: you may be the new kid in school, right? Or the new kid on the block, or, you know, anything along those ways. So, they're the friends you kind of carry through. There are the friends that… and I'll share a personal experience. There are friends that you carry through, but at some point.

Jayne Ray: they take a detour, and so do you like. I had a very, very, very close friend. You know, my children called her her aunt, that we were extremely close friends for 25 years, and then we reached a crossroads where

Jayne Ray: our friendship just fell apart. And very painful, you know, almost worse than a romantic relationship. We didn't have a fight.

Jayne Ray: It wasn't like we had a disagreement. It's just our lives took different paths, and for whatever reason, our lives couldn't intersect anymore.

Jayne Ray: We both got into different relationships, different. I don't know different lifestyles, and and what kept us together.

Jayne Ray: Wasn't strong enough to survive that. And it is painful. It's very, very painful. I keep in touch with her mother. You know what I mean? Interesting.

Andreas Stein: Swe.

Jayne Ray: Right. So, you know, there are some people that, like, what if a lifelong friend is not a lifelong friend? You know, that somewhere along the way that stops.

Jayne Ray: Personally, for me.

Jayne Ray: I have made some amazing friends over the last few years since I retired in both my summer home and my winter home, and I love that. But I'm not looking for a best friend anymore.

Andreas Stein: Interesting.

Jayne Ray: you know, it's… it's… I'm looking for people that I can have shared experiences with, I'm looking for, people that, in that context, we have a great time. And yes, we can share parts of our lives and support each other, but that depth of relationship

Jayne Ray: I personally am not looking for that anymore. Other people.

Andreas Stein: Of course you don't want to get hurt again like that.

Jayne Ray: I think part of it is I don't want to get hurt. I think that's a big part of it. I think also part of it is that, you know, with 70 plus years of experience.

Andreas Stein: Okay.

Jayne Ray: You know, digging deep into who I am, you know, would take a Freudian analysis.

Jayne Ray: But I, you know, but I still want that bonding. I mean, I still want that, that, that bonding with other women, and I still want that, that bonding, but

Jayne Ray: you know, the definition of a best friend is… is not important to me anymore. Close friend, yes. Best friend, not so much. Interesting. Yeah, I… I think… but I do think that there are…

Jayne Ray: people particularly, I don't know. Do you think it's more gender based.

Andreas Stein: I don't know. That's a very good question. So…

Andreas Stein: In my own assessment, I mean, that's a big word, but I think… Guys tend to express

Andreas Stein: Closeness differently. Like, if you're a guy, I'm not into fishing. Not at all. I hate fishing, quite honestly. I love to eat fish. I'm not out. I'm never gonna go out fishing. I just…

Jayne Ray: Hold.

Andreas Stein: Not my world, alright? But, I mean, I've given it a try many times, and

Andreas Stein: Know a lot of people who are passionate fishermen and

Andreas Stein: And they're close friends. I'm not sure if they're best friends or not, but they're definitely close friends with other guys. They go out fishing and

Andreas Stein: You know, when they go out fishing, here is how they express their closeness, they're completely silent. Saying a single word for 3 hours.

Andreas Stein: Or however long, but sometimes that's how guys often feel more comfortable expressing the closeness. There is just something unspoken to how they express emotions, and just sitting there staring at the water, I'm stereotyping, I get it, grabbing a can of beer.

Andreas Stein: I'm not saying a single word.

Andreas Stein: somehow, through that, There's a connection.

Andreas Stein: From what I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong, for ladies, that's not the way it works.

Jayne Ray: No, we… we're… we're chattier. We… we definitely are chattier, but you know, like.

Jayne Ray: It's interesting to me because I've been married twice, and both of my husbands

Jayne Ray: Had deep friendships from when they.

Jayne Ray: Were not even younger, like my ex-husband had deep friends from when he was in his early 20s. Current husband has deep friends when they all had children at the same time. And those guys are still amazingly close. They don't see each other very often. They don't even talk to each other very often. But the bond between them, one of Sean's really close friends, has a summer place near us in in.

Jayne Ray: Blairsville, and there's just a strength of a bond.

Jayne Ray: with those the guys that if any one of them needed something, they would be there. They used to go on a once a year golf trip together, and you know women weren't invited, and they would go to Las Vegas, and they would play golf, and they would eat and gamble and do whatever you know, whatever they were.

Jayne Ray: you know, boy stuff together. And I always admired and respected that, because they kind of…

Jayne Ray: Both of my my husband's had like a boy squad.

Jayne Ray: And there are women that have, a girl squad. My… one of my stepdaughters has a very powerful, and she's 30, very powerful and self-named girl squad, which is a group that are…

Jayne Ray: interconnected and very supportive of each other. And if

Jayne Ray: if one needs something, they're there, but if somebody has a birthday party, they throw a big party for them. I've never really had a girl squad.

Jayne Ray: Maybe I'm a little jealous of that. And I said I have a lot of women friends, most of whom came from my work. And you're right. When you leave work, that's very complicated. So maybe the bond.

Jayne Ray: if there is a gender difference, and I don't know that there is or isn't. I'm not a psychologist, but if there is a bond, I think that

Jayne Ray: in my personal experience that the men I know are not actively looking for new friends.

Jayne Ray: They are…

Jayne Ray: Happy to have fun with a bunch of people, but they're very grounded in who their, I don't know, guy squad is. And so it's a different craving.

Jayne Ray: I said I definitely want friends. I mean, playing tennis has introduced me to a whole bunch of people. This past week, I played pickleball.

Jayne Ray: here in Blasville, and it took a lot to walk in that gym, not knowing anyone, but people were nice and warm, and I would use the word, I have some new friends.

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: They're not your definition, right?

Andreas Stein: Well, you know, once again, I've become much more, you know, flexible in how I use the word because, you know, again, and I think the downside of this very steep understanding of friendship is, you know, you.

Andreas Stein: You may end up with no friends, you know, and because, if you're looking for something that's unrealistic and, you know, but I also know friendships can be very life giving.

Andreas Stein: You know, can we truly… a source of…

Andreas Stein: Happiness, you know, of getting up.

Andreas Stein: With excitement early in the morning because you know you'll be.

Andreas Stein: playing who knows what, you know, with, you know, tennis, or whatever you play, I don't care, you know, with your friend, or you spend time with your friend, you know, or you meet with your friend for 3 hours.

Andreas Stein: There's something life-giving there, you know, and, and I think.

Andreas Stein: That life giving aspect of friendship.

Andreas Stein: It's something everyone doesn't matter whether you're 20 or 80.

Andreas Stein: really wanted to say desperately needs that might be the wrong word, but definitely needs.

Andreas Stein: And, and if your retirement and, you know, the professional relationships kind of become, less frequent, and at some point will drop out entirely, maybe, that's probably fine.

Andreas Stein: But, we we need this life giving breath of friendship.

Andreas Stein: And… What level of friendship, whether it's the best friend where you feel comfortable, Sharing pretty much everything.

Andreas Stein: or whether it's more kind of a lifestyle friendship, you know, hey, we enjoy doing this or that together, and, you know, as we… you know, but there's not much else above and beyond that. I think there's a lot of individual…

Andreas Stein: style and preferences. I don't think there's a right or wrong.

Andreas Stein: But friendships are life-giving.

Andreas Stein: A lack of friendship is loneliness and isolation.

Andreas Stein: And… Sorry, go ahead.

Jayne Ray: No, I was gonna say, you know, we've talked a lot about loneliness in retire

Jayne Ray: And I think that you're absolutely right.

Jayne Ray: Friendships are life-giving, and being vulnerable and open to new friendships is important.

Jayne Ray: So the question is, how do you make friends, right? How do you make friends over 60? If you are blessed enough to have lifelong friends, and they live near you, so that you can have a cup of coffee together, or you can go to the movies together, or whatever, that's an amazing blessing.

Jayne Ray: When people move away, From wherever they, you know.

Jayne Ray: Spent a good portion of their adulthood.

Jayne Ray: And you're in a community where maybe you don't have.

Jayne Ray: those friends.

Jayne Ray: And again, I said I don't want a best friend, but having friends for me is very important. Sitting down and having a cup of coffee, or going to the movies, or we just planned this show that we're all going to go see together in November. It is life-giving.

Jayne Ray: And and allowing yourself to, first of all, be vulnerable. But second of all, you have to put yourself in a situation like you did at work where you can make friends. So it may mean stepping into the pickleball gym when you don't know someone. It may be, you know, figuring out how to play cards at a local whatever it may be.

Jayne Ray: going to a church. It may be putting yourself in a place where you can meet like-minded people that are interesting and fun, and you have the potential

Jayne Ray: to become friends with. And I think that's part of the… of the…

Jayne Ray: conundrum, if you want to put it that way, that in order to make friends over 60, and I had a conversation with people a few months ago about why is it hard to make friends over 60? And the answer is, is because you're not in an organic situation.

Jayne Ray: where…

Jayne Ray: you just become friends with people, like little kids on the playground. It isn't like that for us over 60, unless you take that first step.

Andreas Stein: That and Every friendship at any age contains an element of risk taking.

Andreas Stein: And, you know, whether it's a lifestyle friendship that's about, you know, watching a show together.

Andreas Stein: Whether it's a personal friendship or there is an element of sharing Meaningful stuff.

Andreas Stein: If it's a best friendship, it goes beyond saying you share.

Andreas Stein: Stuff that is really, at the very core of who you are.

Andreas Stein: you know, and…

Andreas Stein: You can get hurt, as you said, not even so much that the friendship necessarily falls apart, but that friend of yours, maybe even without attention, may say or do something that disappoints you.

Andreas Stein: That hurts you.

Andreas Stein: And.

Andreas Stein: You know, and obviously.

Andreas Stein: sometimes that hurt may, you know, may linger just 3 minutes, and you forget it, but sometimes it may go deeper. But part of a friendship is, you know, to say, alright, I,

Andreas Stein: This, this connection…

Andreas Stein: Is special enough, is meaningful enough, is life-giving enough, is powerful enough, I'll fight for it, and I'll overlook it, or I'll move on, I'll find a way to deal with it. And, but, you know, and, but certainly some kinds of disappointments may go so deep that to say, you know what, no.

Andreas Stein: That crosses a certain line that I'm not willing to, to have crossed.

Andreas Stein: But friendships, and I think, you know, when you reach 60, 65, 70, or, you know.

Andreas Stein: The retirement age, whatever that is, you know, I mean, you, as you mentioned, you have experienced that there is tremendous life-giving happiness that comes from friendships, and you have experienced that there can be true hurt from friendships, not even only about a friendship falling apart, sometimes that person

Andreas Stein: may really say or do something that's just stinks deeply.

Jayne Ray: But you know, I'll take it from the other point of view, and it's about the word trust.

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: Right. It's about the word trust.

Jayne Ray: you won't know. It's like a romantic relationship, right? When you 1st met somebody. You know you held yourself back.

Jayne Ray: because you don't know. I mean, you have a risk that somebody's going to hurt you. And it's the same with

Jayne Ray: with any friendship, right? It's the same with any relationship, family, friendship, romantic relationships. There's always that when you meet somebody as a friend and you feel a connection to them, you have a similar experience. You're having a similar lifestyle, maybe for whatever reason.

Jayne Ray: You know, people meet through different groups because of whatever's happened in their life. That's my best friend, the dog.

Andreas Stein: There we go.

Jayne Ray: But, for whatever reason, you have to be vulnerable enough. You have to trust.

Jayne Ray: at the outset, you can't look at every relationship and say, oh, I'm not going to risk it because that person's going to hurt me.

Jayne Ray: Even if you've been hurt before. And that's hard, right? That's hard. Because every human being out there has the potential to hurt you, but every human being out there also has the potential

Jayne Ray: to be somebody, as you said, life-giving, and you're going to having a mutually beneficial… doesn't that sound like very business-y?

Andreas Stein: That's sort of clinical.

Jayne Ray: I know. But but you're going to be able to give, and you're going to be able to take. And that's what relationships are all about. Right? You're gonna you're just gonna find something that draws you to that person.

Jayne Ray: I have a new friend, in Fort Myers that I feel that way about. We've just gotten very friendly. You and Daniela, I feel that way about, right? It's… it's,

Jayne Ray: There is a connection, and you have to trust And and explore that.

Jayne Ray: connection, even if it's a little spark of a connection.

Jayne Ray: To see whether that's somebody that you're going to enjoy being with, that you're… and again, not every relationship has to go deep into your heart and past all your walls, and

Jayne Ray: and all of that. I think there are different friends in different contexts, but I think part of it is putting yourself in a situation where you can make friends.

Jayne Ray: Right? And so that's… taking the first step is the hardest step.

Jayne Ray: And maybe it's an activity, or, you know, maybe it's a faith group, or maybe it's a support group, or maybe it's a volunteering opportunity. Whatever it is, you have to put yourself in a situation where you can become friends with people.

Jayne Ray: You can't always rely on your past friends because, again, if you don't live near each other, I think that's it. And you have to trust. You have to trust that you are amazing enough that somebody would want to be friends with you.

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: and that they're amazing enough that you know they will. They will see in you something that that it gives them joy, and that together you have a chance to

Jayne Ray: Just have a good, a nice time, right? A nice time, and and I think particularly over 60.

Jayne Ray: you know, we have so many… we have so many experiences. We may like the same music, we may like the same lifestyle, we may not like the same music.

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: You know, we may not like the same thing, and that brings us together.

Jayne Ray: I I you know, I think, to sum it up, Andres, it's really just

Jayne Ray: Humans are meant to have relationships. We're not meant to be alone.

Andreas Stein: Yeah, that is one of the most profound statements possible. We are meant to be together.

Andreas Stein: And, you know, that covers the whole range of human relationships.

Andreas Stein: But friendships are… Or part of that spectrum of relationships and.

Andreas Stein: I don't know, life is probably incomplete without friends.

Jayne Ray: And particularly at this age, right? You can't say, been there, done that.

Jayne Ray: You know. That's what we say. Oh, been there, done that. No, there's a lot of amazing people out there and opening yourself up.

Jayne Ray: To those people that you… you feel some kind of connection with, and walking away from people that you feel aren't in sync with you, that's a good thing.

Andreas Stein: Right.

Jayne Ray: That's a good thing. So, my friend…

Andreas Stein: And,

Jayne Ray: My friend.

Jayne Ray: This is a good conversation, and we're going to keep talking about, you know, the kind of the feelings that go into retirement. I mean, that was the reason we started this podcast, is that there aren't a lot of resources that talk about feelings.

Andreas Stein: Right? So…

Jayne Ray: And, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly, the, the trust, the mistrust, the opportunities. I, I think, you know, that's one of the things that gives me a lot of pride about doing this with you, is that we are going to talk about feelings that, you know, maybe make people a little uncomfortable. That's okay.

Andreas Stein: Well, friendships are scary.

Jayne Ray: Friendships are scary, but they're amazing. And so go find a new friend this week.

Andreas Stein: There we go.

Jayne Ray: Speaking of friends, I am headed out to my husband's 50th high school reunion.

Andreas Stein: Already 50 years old, Jane?

Jayne Ray: Yeah, well, there you go, right? So…

Andreas Stein: Yeah, that'.

Jayne Ray: I never went to a reunion, so that's a conversation. But while I'm there, I'm going to try to kind of reflect and maybe share about where did the 50 years go and what did we all learn in 50 years? And I said, I never went to a reunion, so what is it like to go to a 50-year high school?

Andreas Stein: I have never gone to any… I'm 54, turning 55 next month.

Andreas Stein: I've never gone to a single reunion.

Jayne Ray: Well, you were 5 years old when they graduated high school, so…

Andreas Stein: True.

Jayne Ray: But yeah, it'll be very interesting to kind of connect, and I… I'm gonna bring my recorder with me, and hopefully we'll get… we'll be able to get some… some, insight into, like, what's it like going to a 50-year re… reunion? I said I didn't go either, so…

Jayne Ray: These are folks that, have, have stayed in touch over the years. So, so hopefully I'll be able to bring something to them. In the meantime, whatever your journey is, I think, both of us really hope

Jayne Ray: that that it's joyous.

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: All right, well, see you next time.

Andreas Stein: See you next time. Thank you.

Jayne Ray: Take care. Bye.