Paul Ashcroft (00:01.39)
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Curious Advantage podcast. My name is Paul Ashcroft. Today I'm here with my co-authors, Garrick Jones and Simon Brown. Today we are super excited to be joined by Javier Hedcheve, the Chief Operating Officer at Heathrow Airport. Javier leads the operation behind one of the world's busiest and leading airports, overseeing everything from airfield operations, baggage handling, to security resilience and customer experience, serving

around 85 million passengers every year. Before becoming COO, Javier spent almost a decade as Heathrow's Chief Financial Officer, helping him then steer the organization through the COVID pandemic and shaping its long-term growth strategy. Alongside his work at Heathrow, Javier is passionate about leadership, wellbeing and sustainability. He serves on several boards and teaches strategy and leadership development through executive education programs. Originally from Spain,

Javier came to the UK for what was meant to be a six month assignment. And as we found out, Javier, 18 years later, you're still here, now leading one of the most complex operations in the world. That's a fairly long stay. Welcome to the Curious Advantage podcast.

Javier Echave (01:15.399)
you Paul, great to be here.

Paul Ashcroft (01:17.922)
Javi, let's start where we always do. You've had such a fascinating career. Really keen to hear how do you personally define curiosity and what role has it played in your life and work over the years?

Javier Echave (01:30.547)
Well, I said thank you for having me. I think it's amazing to have this conversation. I believe that curiosity is both a state of mind but also a habit that you can that you can develop. I in terms of mindset, I think I have always been keen to understand deeper. And that combined with willingness to challenge your own or your own assumptions, I think is is really something that keeps us current and at the state. But I I think also that requires

imp implicitly an acceptance that most of the time you you you don't know enough and you will never know enough and therefore you have to surrender with that reality and almost or overcome your own personal ego to keep learning, keep pushing and and keep an open mind. And I think in terms of the second part of your question, where this comes from. Well my relationship with Curiosity probably started from from birth. I grew up in an amazing family, but also a family that has

some degree of chaos. I'm the third of nine siblings. So within that environment, obviously you can imagine a regular Sunday breakfast for me involved eleven people. sharing was just the default option. setting and protecting boundaries was a skill that unconsciously I have to develop just to to survive. And therefore all those ingredients help me to unconsciously develop personal resilience, negotiation skills.

self discipline but also curiosity. And obviously when you have so many brothers and sisters, they keep you telling, come on, you don't know enough. You are whatever. And therefore manage your ego. And therefore that was that was effectively the environment where I grew up and an environment where individuality obviously had to coexist with with being part of something bigger. Call it a family, call it a team, or call it just a system. And therefore those attributes and values I think became almost effortless superpowers to really shape my career.

from school to unit, from unit to school, to from finance to operations, from Spain to London. And therefore curiosity became that almost ability to really flex and maintain that appetite for learning and and experiment in in complexity.

Paul Ashcroft (03:39.502)
In the intro, you mentioned that you've been here for 18 years. For someone that works at Heathrow, that's quite a long delay in your stay, isn't it? Tell us that story. How did you stay here nearly two decades when you planned only a short visit?

Javier Echave (03:50.445)
Ha ha ha

Javier Echave (04:00.689)
Well, I think I think probably time flies when you're having fun. when I came to to London was primarily the the the London airport system was called BAA. That group owned seven airports, of which Hydro was the largest, representing ninety percent of the asset, ninety percent of the passengers. And therefore I originally came through the company I used to work in in Spain to help Hydro refinancing their acquisition facilities. So I did funding for many years.

I was involved literally we were involved in the middle of the global financial crisis. And therefore, when we have just completed the capital structure of the company, we realize that actually the comp the capital structure that we have just successfully completed belong to a different world. And therefore, we have to adapt to that new reality, regulatory changes, the system, political system trying to adapt to the new reality of the global financial crisis. And therefore, for

few years actually before I noticed I was involved in terms of all these very super interesting MA transactions in terms of selling airports. We were forced to sell airports. We were forced to adapt. But then finally I realized that after five years doing very interesting financing work, actually I knew very little about the airport itself. I could have been funding water, oil, gas or aviation, but actually I I really knew very little. People were continually asking me about what happens

checking why an aircraft is late or not. what's the success and what are the ingredients for success in the experiences that we are trying to allock at the airport. And then from from there I move to closer to the operations but still within finance. I did that for for several years. I was more involved in terms of negotiating commercial contracts and and discussing with our amazing unions about pay deals. And then I I continue evolving my career. I became CFO.

Brexit happened, pandemic happened, and therefore I saw an element of compression of the business, expansion of the business, also fair runway. and therefore after a few years I realized that I wanted to go back and get closer into operations and I have been doing that for two years. So it's interesting because when you say two decades, sadly I feel unbelievably old. but but at the same time

Paul Ashcroft (06:19.927)
you

Javier Echave (06:22.493)
has been such a fascinating journey and Hydro itself is a city. It's a city of ninety thousand people working there, serving two hundred and seventy thousand passengers every every day. There are there are not many cities actually in the UK of the size of three hundred and fifty thousand people and Hydro is one of those. And therefore when you are operating in such a vibrant, changing and exciting city, actually time can can fly.

Paul Ashcroft (06:48.183)
Let's talk a bit about Heathrow because it's such a fascinating system, right? And it's so important, particularly within the UK and internationally. Most people think of Heathrow as an airport, but when we spoke before, you said it's really a service company. What do you mean by that? And how does it change the way you lead and go about your work?

Javier Echave (07:10.323)
Well I I think it's it's it's it's very understandable why people think about Hydro in terms of as a collection of assets or or infrastructure or just an airport. Many people come to Hydro to spot planes, to admire the unbelievably in the the unbelievable engineering advancements that we have at Hydro. I think we have almost set the standards for aviation globally. and obviously it's it's just overwhelming and fascinating to see almost the technical dance that one can watch at the airfield of Hydro every day and it's it's mind blowing.

But for most of us and hopefully for most of you, we come to Hydro to connect. we come to Hydro to connect destinations, to connect cultures, to go on holidays, to get into business trips, to attending social celebrations. And it's those connections that actually create experience and memories. And that's ultimately what we do. Hydro sells experiences and crafts memories through airport infrastructure. And therefore, in an airport, you have

part of my role operations is almost orchestrating that dance that system where you have passengers, aircraft, bags and cargo flowing permanently. But I think it's really important to remember that behind every bag there's a person and behind every person there's a story and an experience. And it's that focus actually what fuels our corporate purpose of making every journey better. Focusing on every passenger, every bag and every journey. Because sadly otherwise

I think you can fall into seeing all these different components as units, but it's that mindset of humanizing what we do that suddenly creates a completely different reality. And suddenly forces forces you to think about the system that you were referring to in terms of moving from concrete and steel to actually customer experiences, from assets into outcomes. And actually what makes Hydro so thriving that among other things explain why I have been two decades in the same location.

Garrick Jones (08:41.123)
That's.

Garrick Jones (09:02.531)
It's amazing. I am. I was thinking when you tell me about your family and 11 siblings. I mean, I come from four and I thought that was a lot. And there's a you know, all the chaos that that is but to have 11 we could do a podcast just on families and surviving surviving families. You're right. They certainly challenge us all the time. I want I would get back to the Heathrow and scale there. You talked about every bag is a person behind every journey is a story.

Javier Echave (09:21.491)
Yeah.

Garrick Jones (09:32.355)
How do you enable 90,000 people to be reminded of that human story and not to forget that? What is it you do to get that message into the city that you're involved with?

Javier Echave (09:47.368)
Yeah. Well I think I think I think the simple answer is relentless discipline. I think that you have to keep reminding yourself that we create experiences. but the reality is that we most of the times we create unforgettable memories. But from time to time we can also when we fail, we can also create unforgivable experiences. And therefore, think about these two scenarios. Think about if you are finally relaxing

in one of the lounges of our amazing airlines, returning home after signing that contract that finally is going to make your business taking off. And I'm sure Paul, you know, in your entrepreneurial spirit, you have been experiencing that experience many times, you will remember us because that feeling of success finally after so many years of effort is happening in a state, and that stage happens to be Hydro. But also think about the scenario where if we happen to misconnect the very back that carries the wedding dress of your daughter.

and we contribute to ruining that day, you will also remember us. and and you will have all the right to send me a letter and a very emotionally charged letter. So I think it's in both stories, the common stage where that move is happening is Hydro. And therefore my team is responsible of creating ultimately or augmenting the reality that is happening in that in that stage. So we talked about the complexity of Hydro. Hydro is the most complex operation in the world. We have a flight every forty five seconds. We have eight thousand bugs moving every hour.

We have four point five thousand tons of cargo moving every day, which contributes to a third of the annual exports of the UK. And that means the UK becoming the sixth largest economy of the world. So when you see about these things, it can be overwhelming, but also it can you can lose perspective very easily. And therefore you can fall into the mistake of thinking that the most important thing of Hydro is the system for the sake of the system. Rather than thinking the system

as the way of unlocking the outcomes for our customers that we're trying to unlock. And therefore the only medicine to really address that disease of ignoring and being feeling lost in the system is by being brave and stay close to reality and keep keep you keep you grunting. And I think what works for me is well first of all is stay close to the front line. Those my colleagues in the front line are those the ones serving customers and customers are the ones telling you the truth and reminding you about the experiences that you are creating for them. I think

Javier Echave (12:09.317)
Mindset and language matters a lot. I think my previous CEO, John, amazing individual, very, very customer focused. I think he he he changed and he was in a permanent mission to change the language of the company. We don't refer to our people as staff, we refer them to colleagues. We don't process passengers, we serve customers. And I think it's all these small things helps you remind them actually w the ultimate outcome that you are seeking. And again, culture has to be reinforced daily. So Gavik, after

Garrick Jones (12:29.047)
Hmm.

Javier Echave (12:39.729)
eighteen and a half years at Hydro, I haven't found any other solution than relentless focus because each and every journey matters. And that's the secret, ensuring that the how doesn't get in the way of unders on on on reminding yourself the why almost daily.

Garrick Jones (12:53.667)
It's astonishing you talk about language and mindset to me. That really switches me on. I'm fascinated by language and the impact it has. Small words can have a huge impact on a large system. You gave some examples of people are not called staff, they are colleagues. Do you have other examples of the kind of language you use within the system?

Javier Echave (13:19.549)
Well, I think I think many times when you are trying to resolve systems, I think that you refer to the language that you use for things to people. So again, I I use the word colleague. sometimes I think that we tend to call process passengers. Actually we are not processing passengers, we are serving customers. sometimes we we we confuse the throughput that we are trying to create.

in terms of but actually we are not a factory of things. If anything we are a factory of experiences. and therefore I think it's just small things what actually helps in terms of humanizing humanizing things. And again, sometimes this in many other topics that we are discussing these days, there's a lot of conscious but there's a lot of unconscious bias. And language. I think one of the amazing things of human beings is that we can almost normalize anything. And therefore if you normalize certain terms to refers to people

Over time you are unconsciously biasing the way you think and the way you act, and ultimately that has an impact in the outcome that you're trying to create.

Paul Ashcroft (14:23.981)
However, you describe Heathrow and rightly so as one of the most complex operational environments in the world. Something that struck me when we've spoken before is as a traveler, I would go into Heathrow and I think essentially the world is revolving around me. I'm the passenger, I'm your customer. But actually I'm not only one of many tens of thousands of customers in that hour, but also Heathrow as I understand it operates as a system with many different types of customers and you are...

Javier Echave (14:37.172)
Mm.

Javier Echave (14:43.848)
Mm.

Paul Ashcroft (14:52.381)
somehow trying to orchestrate the different needs and requirements of those different customers just to keep everything moving. What are some of the things that passengers don't see but also your other customers need to do just to keep everything moving and streamlined in the airport?

Javier Echave (15:12.948)
Well I think I think it's it's it's a great great question. I think that it's fantastic to hear that when you go to Hydro you feel the center of attention. This is how it should be. At the end of the day, you pay for an experience. You could go to another airport, you can choose another airline, but you are choosing Hydro for a reason. And we know that flying today is not cheap and therefore we need to deliver value for the experience that you are paying for. As any other service companies, I I think I don't know, you go to

Disney Park, the states has been designed for the experience that we are trying to unlock. I think we are learning from those great companies. You go to a shopping mall and the same. I think that it's a huge amount of assets at the service of the experience that we are trying to create. And therefore the years where airports became and the assets became the focus are gone. I think that passengers are seeking experiences. You go to some of the Asian airports that are leading experience globally,

And and and you can see that actually many passengers, many customers go to those places to enjoy experiences, irrespective even if they don't want to travel, because it's the experience you are seeking. But obviously to make that happening, that amazing stage where hopefully unforgettable experiences happen, has a very complex backstage. And that's ultimately my role that we have to do. I think at Hero that stage comprises five hundred and fifty thousand individual assets.

But more importantly, are in the hands of 400 different companies. It's a combination of the airport operator, but it's also airlines, handlers, security companies, air traffic controllers, cargo operators, et cetera, et cetera, retailers. And therefore, those many players are making thousands of decisions per minute. And independencies, interdependencies are absolutely everywhere. Therefore, the success at the end of the day in that complex system is realizing that actually you do not you do not control things.

You actually my role is to orchestrate all these things. Of the ninety thousand people working at the airport, my payroll is only six thousand. It's a huge theme, but actually it's a fraction of the entire population. And it's that alignment of mindset, behaviors, culture, as well as processes, controls, which creates the system where the experience can happen. So obviously apart from that we have other complexities that passengers doesn't see.

Garrick Jones (17:27.441)
Okay.

Javier Echave (17:30.917)
Obviously we have talked about the operational complexities of multiple assets and multiple parties, but also we have two additional challenges. First of all, Hydro is absolutely full. And that's a blessing because we are full because probably there's something right that we are doing. We're in the right location, creating the right experience for the right customers. but also the density that we have. When you look at the physical footprint of Hydro is twelve square kilometres to serve eighty five million passengers.

That ratio is seven million passengers per kilometer. You compare that with other airports in the world, Anhedro is by far the highest operationally dense airport in the world. Any other European hub is a third of that. And if you look at Dallas Fort Worth in the US, Dallas to serve the same volumes of passengers, they have five and a half times more space, seventy square kilometers. And therefore, what that means ultimately, well that means

First of all, challenges in terms of resilience. We have a system that is permanently running very hot with no slack. And therefore that makes my role exciting but challenging. And that's why having such an amazing team that is prepared to design for success most of the times, but being able to address crisis quickly is is fundamental. But the other fundamental dynamic and I is unfortunately cannot

forget the 10 years I was CFO is cost. I think the reality that we are so full that means that there's limited airline competition and choice. And that makes airfares at Hydro around sixty percent more expensive for the same route than any other airport. Why? Because it's very condensed, there's no much competition and Hidro and P and airlines want to fly from Hydro, among other things, because cargo together with passenger makes Hydro

delivering six out of the top ten most profitable commercial routes in the world. And therefore it's great that airlines are making money, but actually we would like to have more space, more airlines to actually create better competition at the airline front so we can have lower airfares and actually allow better value at lower cost for more passengers. And this is where the run the the the the third runway and the expansion of the airport can be a great opportunity to really create better experiences at lower cost for c passengers in the future.

Garrick Jones (19:54.733)
You've mentioned a number of things that I want to explore further. Maybe this is two questions in one, Javier. The first one is that you talked about designing for success and I'd love to unpack what you mean by designing for success and how that is a skill in your team. But the other thing you mentioned earlier was dealing with the extraordinary challenge of COVID and the pandemic and of course the financial crisis.

and the kind of disruption that occurred then. What have those experiences taught you and how does that link with designing for success?

Javier Echave (20:37.15)
Yeah. So two two things. I think I think obviously complex operations like Hydro, I think that it's very understandable that you can get overwhelmed and you can run into far fighting mode permanently in terms of you can default into survival in terms of how do I make today happening. But I think one of the things I always encourage to my teams is that we have to be

Creating the system that is going to be solving the problems of today, while at the same time we are building the system that will solve the problems of tomorrow. We have to keep one foot today and one foot tomorrow. And therefore, we cannot continue focusing exclusively in terms of the next thing that is in front of us. I think in those environments, I think that I mentioned that we create most of the times unforgettable, but sometimes unforgivable experiences because things can happen.

And I think that when you are dealing with crisis, I think the the the temptation is and the addiction that could happen with crisis is that you are running adrenaline for a few days and you can feel that actually that's the ultimate role that you are seeking. I think I personally I have allergy to drama. drama happens in life, but I I am

My mindset is one of look when it when when when it happens, let's address with that. But I'm not trying to recognise and trying to address that allergy to drama. And I think that the reality is that to to really be successful in this system we have to design for reliability, not recovery. I'm very much about seeking prevention rather than seeking reaction. But also recognising that crisis can be very addictive.

Because of the adrenaline it creates. And therefore, we need to make sure that we rely on design rather than heroics. From time to time, heroics are unavoidable and you need to rely on amazing people going the extra mile. But you cannot just assume that that's going to happen permanently because actually you will be unconsciously creating single points of failure. You will be creating outcomes driving risk of burnout. And therefore, I think you need to make sure that.

Javier Echave (22:48.467)
you almost overcome that temptation to really create the system relying sometimes unconsciously on those heroics, on those recovery rather than crafting them in design. I per very much believe that design is the systems should be the ones making the work for you rather than you demonstrating almost with an egocentric way in terms of you can deal with everything and perpetuate that forever. Customers are not expecting that. Customers are expecting consistency. They expect that

every single time that they show up, we deliver an amazing experience for them. And that requires consistency. And consistency in that complex operations can only happen by relying on the system. I think to your yeah, we c we can talk about later on the on the pandemic, yeah. Yeah. But we we go we can yeah. Yeah.

Paul Ashcroft (23:27.661)
Have you, sorry, have you ever the, well, the pandemic, yeah, let's come to the pandemic. And I wanted to just ask if you could take me inside one of those moments where, one of those shit moments where something has happened and at the scale and complexity of Heathrow, you, you're a very calm guy, right? But dealing with a very difficult set of situations.

How do you work through that? What does that mean in terms of your own personal decision making under pressure? I think that would be fascinating to hear sort of play by play sort of how did that happen and what were some of the things that you did to resolve that successfully?

Javier Echave (24:11.509)
Great. So I think I think I think probably three parts. One is the process of making decisions, second is the environment that you create, but also I think that the habits that you have to develop as an individual to really maintain your own personal resilience. I think obviously in crisis, I think probably the first thing that and unfortunately or fortunately you never know these things. I have been involved in many, is first of all is again back to humanizing what we do as a business.

is that reminding first of all that safety always must come first. Although I have spent twenty years of my life as a finance professional, that has helped me actually to find so many examples and remind myself that actually money can be restored. But human integrity, either physical, emotional or psychological damage, do not cannot be restored so easily. And therefore safety needs to come always first.

So I think in terms of the process of decision making, w we we we do train our people to really how can you put in place a framework, considering that knowing that every crisis is different. But actually in that framework, what we try is to go through a set of questions that helps you in terms of setting the definition of success and then trigger action. First of all, is be clear on information and the objectives. Be clear on on what you know, but also be clear on what you don't know, because sometimes

You are not consciously aware of the things that you don't know and you run the risk of filling those gaps with unconscious bias. Second, I think the important thing is setting the objectives. Be clear on that definition of success. Is success to whom, but also success over which time horizon. And again, depending on an operational crisis that is can be very, very short, I think definition of success is easier to see. When you see a pandemic, that you can see that actually we are going to be in that trouble.

for eighteen months losing eight million pounds a day, the objectives might become a bit more complicated. But ultimately you have to define what are those objectives and what's the order of your of those objectives if they happen to be in crisis. So for example, in the last biggest operational crisis I was involved, twenty first of March power outage in twenty twenty five, the fundamental decision was driven by obviously first of all protecting safety and security, but there was a conversation

Javier Echave (26:34.469)
normally these things happen at very interesting times, one AM, where was priority number one, protecting restoring the system for tomorrow or getting as many flights as possible today. I decided that actually it was better to prioritize the system for tomorrow, not compromising that. And within that, then try to get as many flights as possible today. That created something that is probably has been the best operational recovery recently

Bris and Aviation History, which is Hydro the following day operating hundred percent of the settle. In similar crisis in other airports before, those crises tend to elongate for multi several days and even weeks. We managed to contain that within ten days. And again,

Very sorry for the 1,300 flights I had to cancel that day and the two hundred and fifty thousand passengers I impacted that day. But we managed to contain that within a day. And I think it's that definition of objectives and prioritization of objectives what makes a difference. Then the next step is to make a decision. And make a decision recognizing that you have imperfect information. I I always remind myself this quote from President Roosevelt.

That used to say that in any moment of decision, the best thing that you can do is the right thing. The next b best thing that you can do is the w wrong thing. The worst thing that you can do is nothing. And I think that sometimes it's tempting to embrace procrastination because you are not so sure, but actually you have to remind yourself that you are in senior positions and you are paid to make calls.

And I'm one of the view that I prefer to make the wrong decision than the no decision. Because at the end of the day that's a decision by itself that you cannot defend. I think probably the next step is also communicating, communicating fast, communicating often, communicating clearly. And then keep that running that loop, because in crisis information changes. And therefore and and and this is where you have to fight your own ego. Sometimes I have seen many leaders in r crisis resolution sticking to the original point. Well that's fine if the

Javier Echave (28:39.229)
situation is the same. But if information changes, the objectives might need to change. And then the choices might change and therefore your decisions might have to change. Sometimes I think your ego forces you to be almost to reassure yourselves of the mistakes that potentially you have made, not because of mistakes because but simply because the information was was different. So that's effectively the decision making process. The second thing I mentioned is the environment. I think it's really important

I I mentioned safety and obviously physical safety is obvious, but the psychological safety in crisis I think is really important. One of the first things I had to do after making the decision of closing the airport on the twenty-first of March 2025 is to sit down my leadership team and remind them that the owner of that decision was me. Remind them that once all of this is over, we will be scrutinized, rightly so, by the parliament, by the transport committee, by the board, by consumer boards, by our customers. And

At this stage, let's minute the fact that I was ultimately the one making the decisions. Because what I need you is not to be thinking about what bad could happen to you if you made the wrong decisions. What I need you is to focus on resolving the crisis and you know how to resolve that specific technical issue more than me. So the deal is that I will hold the responsibility. You have done your job in terms of providing the input, providing the recommendations, helping me to understand the choices, but the ultimate call sits with me.

And having that conversation explicitly I think is fundamental to really create an environment of psychological safety where people can operate more freely.

So that's probably the my biggest thing, I think, in terms of creating the environment. And in terms of finally in terms of all the attributes about your yourself, obviously personal resilience. I have been involved in in many crises. I remember ten years ago when I joined the executive team as a CFO, I was invited to a drill of a crisis. And I was literally grilled for hours. And I and I couldn't cope. I I think I noticed that I

Javier Echave (30:43.475)
my brain was having a lot of fog and I really struggled and I I I felt absolutely exhausted at the end. So when that exercise of crisis was over, I was left with a huge sense of guilt, thinking of what bad could have happened if someone could have been impacted by bad decisions, by me not being at my very best. And therefore that tr that that opened a personal journey where I realized actually that I was not in the in the great

the in the in the best of myself. I had to recognize that I was suffering anxiety at that time. I have to recognise that I have not strong habits in place. My relationship with exercise was inexistent. My relationship with the mobile was addictive. My relationship with food was emotional. And therefore I have to put in place many different habits. That actually it was probably the most painful transformation I have ever done in my life, which is trying to transform myself. And I I'm I'm not done. I'm still into that journey.

But the thing the interesting thing is that ten years down the line, the very same exercise that ten years ago was a drill, actually twenty first of march twenty twenty five was real. And I did cope. And I think we made the right decisions. And therefore when I look back, actually those moments of challenge ten years ago when I had to realise that actually I had to change and I have to admit and seek help about my own

mental health issues actually became a blessing because that was a preparation of what was coming down the line. And therefore, I think the the role of the habits that I think that they are required for an individual to really be in the position to be resilient is something that we are all in a journey. We are not perfect. But I think it's worthwhile. It's worthwhile doing because all these things are is the universe

mysteriously preparing you for something bigger that comes underline.

Simon Brown (32:44.543)
It's such a powerful lesson in in leadership, I think, looking back at this, I'm I'm really curious of that moment where you had to make the decision around do we recover for today, do we plan for tomorrow? I love the Rieserfeld quote of you know doing doing the the right things or the wrong things and the worst thing you can do is nothing, but trying to make that decision must have been incredibly difficult. So how how did you balance, I guess, the make making a quick decision with the sort of consulting the team and getting

all the different opinions. You could have spent hours and hours and hours analysing the situation, but that would have sort of fallen into the nothing. So I'd I'd love to know the sort of thought process that you went through under a hugely stressful situation to make a decision which looked like it was the the right decision. yeah, how how did you go through that?

Javier Echave (33:34.752)
So I think I think two things. One is the specific on that particular decision. I think that there were two potential scenarios. One is we can close now, and obviously Hydro was not in status to operate for a combination of reasons. but the the difficult decision was for how long do we close the airport? we effectively we have two options on the table. One is that we signal to the entire ecosystem that Hydro is going to stay closed for the rest of the day. and therefore if we

And that will create a very clear signals. At that time, at that time at one in the morning, there were already 120 flights en route to Hydro. We have to send those flights back because although the emergency procedures were in place and those flights could have landed safely, it would not it it would not it would not have been the right experience for them. And also at certain point the system was not able to absorb those volumes of passengers, bags, aircraft, cargo, all these types of things. So

The reality there was okay, do we close for the entire day? Signal that we are not ready to operate, and importantly, a byproduct of that decision is that we keep aircraft passengers away from an airport that is not safe to absorb the volumes that we have today. Recognizing that if we manage to resolve the issues that is causing Hydro not being able to operate at full now.

We can always restart operations. We can always say, Okay, we are now ready, come over. But we can do that in a controlled manner. The alternative is to say, okay, we believe, we hope. Hopium, I think, is a is a very complicated way to really or ingredient to really make decisions. We hope that actually by ten AM we are going to be ready. Well, if you wake up knowing that your flight is at one PM and you read in the news, because obviously every time that we fail,

It's not very secret, it's everywhere. And now with social media even more, what would you do? What would you go you will go to the airport earlier? We would have had thousands of passengers in the front of a terminal that was not prepared to host them. That by itself is a safety risk, but also it would have diverted important resources of people working in the resolution of the problem. Therefore, I ultimately made the decision that it's better to

Javier Echave (35:53.623)
For the protection of the passengers, for the protection of my colleagues, to the resolution and the restoration of the system, to try to accept that there's going to be pain and and an impact. And again, I cannot forget any opportunity like this one to apologize to all the passengers that were impacted in that day. But try to try to rebuild from there rather than this permanent procrastination of of decisions. And I think it happened to be

the right the right solution considering the circumstances. I think the other the other important thing, not not necessarily specifically about this decision, but the the reality of Hydro or any other complex operations like ours, Simon, is the fact that as I mentioned earlier, Hydro is a city with four hundred different companies. And therefore if you don't make a decision and you don't communicate that decision clearly, all those parties will make their own decisions. And therefore

it will create multiple decisions that potentially they are conflicting, which is going to create even more chaos. Which is why I think many times when you choose unconsciously to make no decisions, you are making the decision to allow all those parties to make poorly integrated individual decisions that is not ultimately helping to the system. That's why a no decision is a decision by itself. And therefore

The the the the way I operate and the way we train our people is that the good thing of making a decision, even if it's bad, is that at least you can explain why you made it. Because a no decision, you are making a decision, but you cannot even explain why and you cannot even assess the consequences of you just being not having the courage to really make a call.

Simon Brown (37:39.812)
I think there's there's something about being a leader that the the the role is to create clarity for everyone around you. And yeah, it it sounds like that's exactly in this situation what you did, that it's this this gives people the clarity to then be able to mobilise to operate to make the decision to come in or not. The absence of that clarity, yeah, creates creates the mayhem. So I think for for for many facing

Javier Echave (38:00.127)
Race chaos. Yeah.

Simon Brown (38:04.457)
a different sort of leadership decision at the moment of there's a lot of unknowns and sort of how do you navigate through it. As you say, no no decision is is itself a decision. So actually how as leaders can we create the clarity in all of these unknowns so that then actually the people around us, the teams around us can then operate. I think it's yeah, it's such a powerful lesson.

Paul Ashcroft (38:27.598)
You have a very powerful view of leadership. One of the things I've heard you say before is you talk about leadership as helping people remember how great they already are. Tell us a bit more about that and can you give us an example of how does that play out for people?

Javier Echave (38:48.15)
Well I I grew up in in in businesses where there was this definition flying around that for for for many people believed that leaders were those apparently divine creatures that they were touching people and through their that touch, magical touch, were made making people great. and and I I and I heard that

philosophy for many many years and and I was very much about fighting with that philosophy. I and therefore I I realize and I think through conversation with great leaders actually that actually people are born great and we talked about family earlier. I have I'm father of four children. I don't have nine but I have four and my youngest is still four.

And actually you notice in in in young children that actually they are they are fearless, they are courageous, they are pure and and they're amazing. And then life makes li life can be difficult and can reach so difficulty that actually you can forget how great you are. And therefore you suddenly f disconnect with yourself and then suddenly you you it is challenging. And therefore, for me one of the fundamental

The definition of leadership I really like and it starts with one is actually reminding people how great they are and inspire the best that you can be. The I don't think that leadership is is about changing people. It's about actually unlocking and reminding the greatness that we all have. We we all have we are we all bring something special and something unique. But sometimes I think it takes years and many years many times I think it takes adversity to find what's the special thing that you bring to the party.

And I think that when you can do that, when you can really help people, remind them what's the great thing that they bring, and actually inspire and build confidence around that, magic happens. And it starts with one, I think in terms of being aware, in terms of what's the thing in you that makes you special and you bring to the party, but also remind others. And this is where if you keep doing that over and over again and it becomes an unconscious habit, then people do amazing things in the most complex circumstances.

Javier Echave (41:10.742)
I think the other thing that I have found very interesting is this many times I think we mention all these concepts in terms of safety, certainty, curiosity. And sometimes we mix these type of things. I think it's clearly that we we operate in a wall where it's very uncertain, it's fast moving, and it can be overwhelming. But I think for me, if you can create an environment of safety, especially

not only physical but psychological and emotional safety, you can cope and even thrive with uncertainty. And actually, curiosity becomes the tool that helps you finding advantage within uncertainty. And therefore for me, all these things, I think ultimately the role of the leader is that if you can remind people that they are great, not conditionally but unconditionally.

They are great, they were born great, but they might have forgotten. And perhaps they are not showing their best for a combination of reasons. But if you can create an environment where people feel great and safe, then actually coping and thriving uncertainty becomes easier. And actually curiosity becomes the tool to really find competitive advantage in times of uncertainty. And therefore that's where has worked for me. That's what I have experienced with myself. I'm not perfect. There are times where I can do it.

most of the times I cannot because I still keep ig ignoring the basics. But I think it helps, I think, in terms of unlocking potential, in terms of providing clarity, in terms of energizing people, because I think energy, personal energy I think is fundamental to really drive a business. And that help also in terms of increasing standards. Standards of one, I think when you start playing with this amazing spiral in terms of confidence and competence, I think

Garrick Jones (43:02.177)
Hmm.

Javier Echave (43:03.21)
The more confident you are, it seems that you are doing better, the better you are, you feel better, and therefore you can spin that up. Actually you can increase tolerance, reduce tolerance, incre increase standards, reduce tolerance for things that you shouldn't accept. And actually ultimately that creates better outcomes for the individuals in terms of happiness, but also for the organizations that you can work for in terms of creating amazing experiences, in my case at Hydro.

Garrick Jones (43:29.269)
It's incredible. You talk about the experiences and you talk about focusing on the customer and it's all about the stories and their reality and their experience and how that drives this incredibly complex, enormous system. Where's it going? What's the future of Heathrow travel and customer experience? mean, what are you most excited or curious about when you think about the future of Heathrow?

Javier Echave (43:56.311)
Well I think I think first of all Hydro we have I think an amazing past we need we need to be proud of. I think this year actually twenty twenty six we are celebrating our eightieth anniversary. it's just unbelievable that in the last eighty years around three to four billion passengers have traveled through Hydro, which is a third of the global population has travelled through Hydro.

which is just unbelievable. we have an amazing present today. I think we are having a lot of passengers enjoying amazing experiences. But also we are not perfect and I think that it's that realization that I don't believe in perfection. I I think perfection doesn't exist, it's an aspiration. And but accepting that you are perfect actually is is an exercise of mind an exercise of swallowing your own ego that you have to do daily. The fact that you are not perfect doesn't mean that you're bad.

But that's why I think at Hydro we embrace much more strongly the word better than best. The problem of best is that what happens when you get there? You become complacent, you start developing the muscle, you you stop developing the muscle of being innovative, pushing yourself, and before you notice, I think you have just got worse. Better is limitless. And I think that that making every journey better, which is included in our purpose, is exactly what we are trying to do.

better is absolutely limitless. I know I'm confident. Look, eighteen years ago when I joined Hydro, we were serving sixty five million passengers. We were saying that we were full, that everything was difficult, that the experiences were okay. Eighteen years down the line, which is my personal experience, we are serving significantly more passengers. We have airlines that are thriving and creating amazing connections and amazing experiences for our customers. And we are delivering our also critical role in terms of making the UK a successful place.

an amazing country. I hope that and I'm confident that in the next five to ten years Hydro is only going to get better. I believe that we are going to I'm excited about that seamless integration of the different components, different parties, different assets, the physical and the digital. We are pushing hard in terms of of that seamless integration because it is seamless integration what unlocks amazing experiences. Is that continuous focus in terms of end to end journeys, is unlocking

Javier Echave (46:20.19)
the power of data in the hands of our people and the power of AI in the ha in the in the hands of our people to really accelerate that seamless flow. It's about decarbonizing aviation, is deploying sustainable aviation fuel and making sure that we do not compromise our passengers to having a choice between planet and traveling, because we believe that we can maintain the benefits of aviation, which are many, directly

Nine out of the seventeen United Nations Sustainable Development Goals are directly enabled by aviation. It's connectivity, it's about infrastructure, it's about education, it's about extending human rights, recognizing that we have to do that in a carbon free way. So is disaggregating the benefits of aviation, which are many, with the burden of carbon and therefore how we are going to protect those benefits while decarbonizing. That's something that in the next we have already done significantly work on that. We need to do more.

But ultimately it's about creating, continue creating those experiences for passengers. So they can show up. They can choose Hydro because there are other alternatives. You can choose other, many other amazing airports. We have you look at the spectrum for airports in the UK and European airports and and they are amazing choices. I want passengers to choose Hydro, not because they have to, but because they want to.

Simon Brown (47:38.35)
So Javier, Heathrow has a special place in my heart. I worked there over twenty-five years ago in Terminal One when I was at university and I seem to spend a significant chunk of my life going through Terminal Five now on a very regular basis. I mean, taking that picture of the future, I mean what what would what would it feel like traveling through Heathrow in five years' time or ten years time? what what would be different to today? I'm I'm curious sort of what that might actually look like.

Javier Echave (48:05.761)
Well I think I think I think probably my view, the the the foundations is that again linked to what we discussed earlier about being genuinely a service company, is that we need to adapt infrastructure, which is something intrinsically rigid, to your needs. So Simon, you will be the judge. You will be the one saying, My the experience I want at Hitler in ten years' time is X, Y, and Z.

Recognizing that the same Simon Brown with the same passport number, you can be different personas depending on the needs of your travel. You don't want the same experience if you are traveling business class, in a business trip. Probably in that situation you will have you will be seeking in terms of very, very fast experience, almost no one talking to you, but infrastructure detecting you, reading you and adapting to you. So you because time becomes of the essence. If you happen to be travelling

е with your family if you have one on holidays.

Simon Brown (49:03.373)
Tomorrow I will be coming through to tea through with my daughter tomorrow.

Javier Echave (49:07.231)
Amazing. Thank you. I think part of the experience hopefully starts at Hydro and therefore you might be choosing to go slightly earlier and enjoy some of the amazing commercial propositions that we have. So actually your holiday or your journey or your whatever you are doing starts at Hydro. If you happen to travel with an elderly individual that requires a mid more assistance, again Hydro should not be the one restricting

the right to have an adventure simply because if our infrastructure are not designed for everyone. We need to be make sure that we adapt the infrastructure to the reality of our passengers. And it's not just us our passengers, it's also the reality of our airline customers too. Airlines choose airports. And therefore different airlines need to have different things. And therefore, the airport of the future I see is an airport that actually delivers

And ideally outperforms the expectations that you have as a passenger, but also the airlines. So we make sure that we at the end of the day great service companies are the ones who are anticipating and are delivering what the customers ultimately want. So I personally believe in that customer is the ultimate judge. And therefore what we have is to stay humble, we have to stay grounded and we have to continue listening in terms of what w w the definition of extraordinary experience starts with you. And therefore we need to be the one proactively listening to you.

and then putting that in place through assets and operational processes to unlock that experience.

Paul Ashcroft (50:37.07)
Javi, this has been such an amazing conversation. I've really, I'm sure Simon and Garret really also enjoyed speaking with you. It's been absolutely fascinating to learn about Heathrow. I'm gonna try and summarize and pull out some of the things that I've heard and then I'm gonna come back to you and ask you just to give you a moment to think about it. What would be one thing that you would leave our listeners with out of all the things we talked about? But some of the things we've covered, I mean, it's been amazing to learn about Heathrow as a city and how complex, in fact, one of the most complex,

systems on the planet in terms of serving so many different, from individual passengers through to airlines and other suppliers.

quite incredible really. But through all that, the story you've told about actually Heathrow is not just a collection of assets and a system, it's about people and about creating meaningful personal experiences for the people that move through Heathrow every single day. And you talked about how you do that by focusing on locking the outcomes that those customers as you described them are looking for by sort of staying close to the front line and really what's going on. And also thinking about very importantly the language that's being used. You talk about

you don't process passengers, you're taking them through their journey essentially. You're not talking about employees, you're talking about colleagues and so on. I've loved...

learning from you, I'd describe it as the anatomy of decision making under pressure. You've talked about, and you really do sit at the front line, you've talked about the process, the environment, and also the personal resilience that you have to have when you're making these sorts of very critical decisions. And I think that's been fascinating, in particular, sort of how you're thinking about, whilst it might be painful, but sometimes you have to save tomorrow at the cost of today. And that's sort of stuck with me.

Javier Echave (52:04.343)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Ashcroft (52:25.42)
I really enjoyed learning from you about leadership, your personal view of leadership, how it's about reminding people how great they are, but also about personal resilience and how you develop and build up your own personal resilience if you're going to lead a team and ask them to do the same thing. So I think that's been fascinating. And then finally, as we sort of talked about the future.

And we talked about, and I very much like this, that yes, best is an aspiration, but better is limitless. And when you're trying to every day work on better and better experiences for passengers, better experiences for the people that interact with Heathrow, how you are moving towards sort of those future goals and maybe a more personalized experience that is better for everyone. I may have missed some, but it's been such a rich and fascinating conversation. I've really enjoyed it. Through all of that would be

one thing that you would like to leave listeners with?

Javier Echave (53:19.927)
I I think probably the key thing is look, I we only have a one life. I think it's really important to live the life that each of us want to live. And I think that the personal mantra I remind myself as much as possible is that mm the way I'm trying to live my life as best as ca as I can is to try to be the best I can be today, within the circumstances I have to be. And from there try to create a better future for all.

Not just for me but for others. And I think that is that recognition that we all have a choice in terms of sometimes we do not control the environment, but we do control our response to that environment. If we can choose the best possible response within the circumstances that will allow us to be the best we can be. And from there I think we can just create better things around us.

Paul Ashcroft (54:10.446)
Brilliant. It was a powerful thought. Thank you. Thank you, Havi, so much for joining us. It's been a brilliant conversation.

Garrick Jones (54:15.907)
Thank you.

Javier Echave (54:17.143)
Thank you.

Paul Ashcroft (54:19.928)
You've been listening to a Curious Advantage podcast. This series is about how individuals and organizations use the power of curiosity to drive success in their lives and business, especially in the context of our new digital reality. It brings to life the latest in understanding from neuroscience, anthropology, history, business, behaviorism about curiosity and makes these useful for everyone. We're curious to hear from you. If you think there was something useful or valuable from this conversation, we encourage you to write a review for the podcast on your preferred channel saying why this is so and what you've learned from it. And we would love it if you could

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