(00:00:02.065):
Over 10 years ago,

(00:00:03.205):
I became really,

(00:00:04.066):
really ill with a somewhat rare autoimmune disease, on top of several I already had.

(00:00:09.448):
This necessitated a two-week hospital stay,

(00:00:12.309):
during which my husband was absolutely overrun with compliments, help,

(00:00:16.250):
meals center brought over,

(00:00:17.730):
and on and on,

(00:00:18.551):
because he was taking care of his children and his household for two weeks.

(00:00:22.852):
You know, the stuff I'd been doing day in, day out, 24-7, 365 for 15 years at this point.

(00:00:29.099):
I guess I should have been grateful it didn't happen over the winter holidays

(00:00:31.981):
because they would have been a complete shit show.

(00:00:35.002):
At this point in the marriage, we'd been to couples counseling several times.

(00:00:38.845):
The first one sent us home with copies of books to reflect on.

(00:00:42.206):
The next two told me that I needed to meet his needs sexually more often.

(00:00:46.249):
No one asked him to contribute to the household load more,

(00:00:48.970):
and certainly no one ever asked if he met my sexual needs.

(00:00:53.293):
Nope, it was, be sure he gets laid more often, that will fix everything.

(00:00:58.172):
So we scheduled sex once a week on a calendar, no less.

(00:01:02.113):
Keep in mind,

(00:01:02.874):
due to the thing I was hospitalized for,

(00:01:05.254):
I was on chemotherapy during this whole lovely tale and had maintenance drugs

(00:01:09.376):
and infusions right to this day.

(00:01:12.097):
A few months later, he had to go to the hospital for back pain, which turned out to be cancer.

(00:01:16.978):
I kept all the balls in the air, including his appointments, surgeries, et cetera.

(00:01:21.620):
I also kept trying to keep our sex schedule.

(00:01:24.021):
And here's the kicker.

(00:01:25.781):
The shingles was mostly on my back.

(00:01:27.806):
I was dead tired from stress,

(00:01:29.247):
four young children, the health issues, the money issues, and on and on.

(00:01:33.529):
And I started crying during sex because it hurt, all of it.

(00:01:37.851):
And he did stop and ask if he should keep going,

(00:01:40.632):
and God forbid he doesn't get off, so I stupidly told him to go ahead.

(00:01:44.914):
And he did.

(00:01:46.155):
The bar for men and sex is under hell.

(00:01:50.277):
Hi, I'm Zawn Villines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:01:54.118):
Today we are going to be talking about sex as a public political act,

(00:01:58.027):
How our culture influences sexuality and how sexuality influences our culture.

(00:02:02.869):
Before we get started, as always, I have a few announcements.

(00:02:06.471):
First, if you like this podcast,

(00:02:08.012):
I'd like to ask you to leave a positive review on your favorite podcast platform and

(00:02:11.994):
to heart react it if you are listening on Substack.

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I know I say this every episode and I know you're probably tired of hearing it,

(00:02:17.876):
but these reviews and heart reacts are critical to the success of the podcast.

(00:02:22.313):
They influence who comes on the podcast,

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where it appears in the algorithm and rankings,

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and ultimately whether it continues and at what frequency.

(00:02:30.700):
This work is entirely free, and a quick review helps make it worthwhile to continue doing.

(00:02:35.965):
If you really love this work, though, I hope you'll consider becoming a paid subscriber.

(00:02:40.749):
Paid subscribers get a bonus episode each month,

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eight additional essays, access to a supports group, free merch, and more.

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They also ensure that I never have to use advertisements,

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which means that no one else can ever control this work.

(00:02:54.594):
If you're interested, subscribe at zawn.substack.com slash subscribe.

(00:03:00):
You can find all of the books I mentioned on the podcast at

(00:03:02.583):
the Liberating Motherhood bookshop page,

(00:03:05.186):
which also hosts tons of book recommendations and reading lists.

(00:03:08.967):
Visit the page at bookshop.org slash shop slash Liberating Motherhood.

(00:03:14.009):
And that includes the wonderful book we will be discussing today by Angela Jones.

(00:03:18.611):
Angela, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

(00:03:21.333):
Thanks for having me.

(00:03:22.073):
It's a pleasure.

(00:03:22.993):
I'm so excited to have you here.

(00:03:24.394):
Before we get started, I'm going to tell folks a little bit about you.

(00:03:26.935):
Awesome.

(00:03:28.496):
Angela Jones is professor of women, gender and sexuality studies at Stony Brook University.

(00:03:34.066):
Jones's research interests include sexualities,

(00:03:36.647):
sex work,

(00:03:37.487):
Black feminist theory and methods,

(00:03:39.068):
trans studies, and African-American political thought and protest.

(00:03:43.029):
They are an award-winning teacher and writer.

(00:03:46.070):
Jones's newest trade book,

(00:03:47.810):
Sex and Public,

(00:03:48.931):
The Transformative Social Power of Our Erotic Lives,

(00:03:51.391):
will be published with Seal Press slash Hatchet in May 2026.

(00:03:54.932):
So it's out now, and you should go buy it.

(00:03:57.553):
Jones is also the author of the award-winning book,

(00:04:00.014):
Camming, Money, Power,

(00:04:01.755):
and Pleasure in the Sex Industry,

(00:04:03.904):
and African-American Civil Rights, Early Activism and the Niagara Movement.

(00:04:08.368):
They are a co-author of

(00:04:09.529):
Black Lives Matter,

(00:04:10.650):
a reference handbook,

(00:04:12.112):
and co-editor of Sex Work Today, Erotic Labor in the 21st Century.

(00:04:17.257):
Jones is the editor of the award-winning reference book,

(00:04:19.899):
African-American Activism and Political Engagement, an Encyclopedia of Empowerment.

(00:04:24.964):
Jones is also a co-editor of the three-volume After Marriage Equality book series,

(00:04:30.226):
Jones has also edited two other anthologies,

(00:04:33.209):
The Modern African American Political Thought Reader from David Walker

(00:04:36.932):
to Barack Obama and A Critical Inquiry into Queer Utopias.

(00:04:41.435):
That's a lot of and also and also and also published so much.

(00:04:46.059):
So I will put all of these books in the bookshop so that folks can see them

(00:04:50.323):
and read them if they want to check out something that we're not discussing here

(00:04:53.385):
because there's some amazing work here.

(00:04:55.627):
I appreciate that very much.

(00:04:57.533):
So tell me a bit about this new book,

(00:05:00.094):
why you decided to write it,

(00:05:01.834):
how you hope it might shift the conversation, what readers can expect, all of that.

(00:05:06.876):
Sure.

(00:05:07.436):
So I think my motivations for writing this book were multifaceted.

(00:05:10.877):
I think as a social scientist,

(00:05:12.918):
as a feminist sociologist,

(00:05:14.699):
some of my motivations are intellectual in that I think there's a lot

(00:05:19.440):
of psychological and physiological,

(00:05:22.401):
biological kind of influence in terms of sexology,

(00:05:26.103):
the systematic study of And as a sociologist,

(00:05:31.244):
as a feminist,

(00:05:32.485):
I think that there's so much that we can bring

(00:05:35.646):
to helping people understand sexuality and in a way that recognizes

(00:05:40.569):
that sexuality is not just, again,

(00:05:43.170):
a physiological or a biological thing,

(00:05:45.652):
a private thing,

(00:05:46.992):
but very much so a public matter,

(00:05:49.494):
very much so something that is influenced by And

(00:05:52.576):
so there are these intellectual motivations,

(00:05:53.777):
but I think at the same time, I reflect on that.

(00:06:07.977):
I do this in the book on my own experiences, my own sexual literacy, my own sex education.

(00:06:14.640):
I think like many people, I feel like I didn't get the education that I deserved.

(00:06:20.262):
In a very personal way,

(00:06:22.463):
there was a motivation for me to help people expand their own sexual literacy.

(00:06:27.585):
Again,

(00:06:28.825):
it's just very important for me to feel like I'm contributing to public knowledge

(00:06:33.487):
about sexuality, not just in an academic or scientific way.

(00:06:38.603):
I love that.

(00:06:39.204):
And thinking about this sex education bit,

(00:06:41.826):
because like same, I think probably most of us can say the same.

(00:06:46.709):
But I'm very cognizant as someone who is now raising young children,

(00:06:51.193):
and I know you are too,

(00:06:52.714):
of what a better approach to sex and sexuality in terms

(00:06:57.097):
of what we teach would look like.

(00:06:59.659):
And also...

(00:07:01.567):
What we should be learning into adulthood.

(00:07:03.890):
Like if you could make a PSA about what we should be teaching our children

(00:07:08.174):
and what you hope people are educating themselves about.

(00:07:12.159):
I know that's a really broad question.

(00:07:14.281):
It's a podcast, so you've got a lot of space to talk.

(00:07:16.704):
So tell me.

(00:07:18.600):
Absolutely.

(00:07:19.541):
Girl, I was like,

(00:07:20.101):
we could do an entire podcast just on this question

(00:07:22.683):
and probably still not have enough time.

(00:07:24.444):
I love this question.

(00:07:26.305):
I mean, I think there's ways that I would answer this in relationship

(00:07:29.106):
to what I think schools should be doing and in terms of what

(00:07:32.789):
that curricula should look like in educational institutions and very briefly

(00:07:37.752):
in terms of offering education.

(00:07:40.013):
Empirically sound,

(00:07:41.213):
clinically accurate,

(00:07:42.514):
inclusive sex education starting at age appropriate times,

(00:07:49.176):
using places like Denmark and others as an example.

(00:07:52.557):
But I think I want to maybe spend a little bit more time thinking

(00:07:55.277):
about what this might look like in our own households and for families,

(00:07:59.158):
because I think defaulting to schools where,

(00:08:02.079):
especially in the U.S.

(00:08:03.500):
context,

(00:08:04):
it Young people are just not going to receive the education that they need,

(00:08:08.478):
especially in a world, for example, saturated by sex.

(00:08:11.618):
I think a lot about the ubiquity of pornography,

(00:08:14.599):
and I want to be very clear,

(00:08:15.559):
and I know you know this,

(00:08:16.599):
I'm not somebody who is ever advocating for a kind of censorship,

(00:08:20.360):
but I think,

(00:08:21.280):
what does it look like to offer young people porn literacy so that they understand

(00:08:25.521):
the dynamics of sex and pleasure and fantasy and power?

(00:08:30.001):
And how do we begin to do that as parents in our own home?

(00:08:34.482):
And I think we need to start,

(00:08:36.303):
I think,

(00:08:37.523):
by not thinking about sex education as just teaching the ins and outs of the ins

(00:08:43.146):
and outs,

(00:08:43.826):
if you will,

(00:08:45.487):
and rather thinking about what it means to teach Young people

(00:08:49.374):
about sexuality really holistically.

(00:08:51.275):
So one of the core interventions of the book is asking people to think

(00:08:54.318):
about not just sex, right, but sexuality.

(00:08:57.480):
So think about our desires,

(00:09:00.442):
our erotic practices and behaviors,

(00:09:02.984):
our identities,

(00:09:04.125):
what kind of relationships we want,

(00:09:05.667):
what kind of erotic communities we might want to be a part of.

(00:09:10.130):
And in doing that, I think we need to teach young people about bodily autonomy, About consent.

(00:09:18.291):
And I can say more about those things because, again,

(00:09:20.032):
I think that for a lot of parents,

(00:09:21.472):
it's kind of, well, teaching sex is about the birds and bees.

(00:09:24.413):
And at some point,

(00:09:25.574):
I'm going to sit them down and have one conversation,

(00:09:28.354):
one and done, and that's going to be it.

(00:09:30.635):
And I think that this is a misstep.

(00:09:33.176):
And we should rather be thinking about an ongoing rigorous,

(00:09:37.557):
you know, and opportunities to teach them about their bodies, how they work.

(00:09:41.558):
I can give you a couple examples.

(00:09:43.199):
So, I often,

(00:09:45.011):
you know,

(00:09:45.411):
this is something I teach in my classroom,

(00:09:47.493):
and so I'll often talk to my students,

(00:09:49.536):
for example, about how their caregivers talk to them about their bodies, right?

(00:09:55.562):
And we will often,

(00:09:56.343):
even on the board,

(00:09:57.544):
come up with this very long list,

(00:09:59.566):
and my students will say things like,

(00:10:01.448):
you know, peepees and flowers and monkeys and bullies.

(00:10:04.652):
I've just heard some of them.

(00:10:07.001):
The most wild euphemisms that people have had,

(00:10:09.863):
as opposed to saying, well,

(00:10:11.063):
we should be talking to young people and our children using clinical language

(00:10:15.906):
and actually talking to them about their bodies.

(00:10:19.768):
And in a way that doesn't necessarily promote or introduce shame, right?

(00:10:24.591):
Even think about the language of private parts, right?

(00:10:28.594):
And I'll often joke with my students kind of reenact the way

(00:10:31.535):
that some parents will even say that, right?

(00:10:33.396):
In this kind of sheepish voice, right?

(00:10:35.738):
You're a private person.

(00:10:38.521):
And just think about how even doing that creates this context for shame,

(00:10:42.427):
that the body is something that you shouldn't want to talk about

(00:10:45.912):
or you shouldn't talk about,

(00:10:46.933):
that it's something that's the source of shame and something that you should hide.

(00:10:51.500):
I often think about the importance of you want to teach people about consent.

(00:10:56.863):
And I think in thinking about healthy,

(00:10:59.665):
erotic and sexual lives,

(00:11:01.146):
how important bodily autonomy and consent is and all the different ways

(00:11:04.728):
that we could be teaching that, even if not explicitly about sex.

(00:11:09.131):
So, for example,

(00:11:10.051):
I've even talked with my own friends who are parents about,

(00:11:14.034):
you know, The smacking, for example, and I've seen this of young kids' butts, right?

(00:11:19.820):
In a very playful way, right?

(00:11:22.402):
What are you teaching them when you're touching their bodies?

(00:11:26.544):
So for example,

(00:11:27.784):
you know,

(00:11:28.425):
your cousins or your aunt or grandma or whomever comes over to visit

(00:11:33.367):
and I see it all the time and parents like,

(00:11:35.468):
well, give auntie a hug and give this relative a hug or a kiss.

(00:11:40.691):
What if they don't want And what are you teaching them about bodily autonomy and

(00:11:45.456):
the control that they have over their own bodies?

(00:11:48.781):
I mean, even anecdotally, this just came up.

(00:11:51.444):
I was traveling with my son two weeks ago and we were in an airport And

(00:11:57.171):
the TSA agent kind of looked to me and said, can I search him?

(00:12:02.194):
Right.

(00:12:02.614):
I understand legally why they asked me the question,

(00:12:06.636):
but I immediately responded and said, I don't know.

(00:12:10.318):
You should ask him if you can touch his body, not me.

(00:12:14.420):
Because, and I think, and even though the agent looked at me with And scowled at me.

(00:12:20.100):
It was important for me to role model and continue to role model to my son

(00:12:24.561):
and reinforce to my son that I don't have control over his body.

(00:12:28.502):
He does, not me.

(00:12:30.363):
And I think that there are so many maybe seemingly innocuous ways that this comes up

(00:12:34.884):
in our daily lives with our children where we can be reinforcing to them,

(00:12:39.005):
reinforcing for them that they have control over their own bodies.

(00:12:43.806):
Because again, we're instilling really important lessons about consent in the process.

(00:12:49.408):
Yeah,

(00:12:49.648):
that's so I'm thinking while you're sharing this story about my children's doctor,

(00:12:55.012):
who always before she examines them says,

(00:12:56.993):
you know, it's okay, because I'm a doctor and because your mom's here.

(00:13:01.056):
And then I always add, but you can also tell her no.

(00:13:04.218):
And, you know,

(00:13:05.739):
it's challenging,

(00:13:06.540):
because, you know, in a way, I'm having to kind of like challenge her authority.

(00:13:09.342):
And I think a lot of times when we're having these consent conversations with kids,

(00:13:13.165):
it forces us to challenge authority.

(00:13:15.790):
Which can be like really difficult.

(00:13:20.451):
Absolutely.

(00:13:21.412):
Absolutely.

(00:13:22.032):
And I think there's,

(00:13:23.712):
and even if we're talking about bodies and mechanics,

(00:13:27.494):
there's an entire genre of literature.

(00:13:29.914):
I mean, broadly kind of bibliotherapy,

(00:13:32.115):
but there are so many, I think about the Corey Silver books and others.

(00:13:36.076):
That can help provide that language if that's what some parents are searching for, right?

(00:13:40.538):
Like they have maybe,

(00:13:42.099):
you know,

(00:13:42.339):
some concerns that they don't have the language and especially in

(00:13:45.600):
an age appropriate way to talk about these things.

(00:13:47.601):
But I think we live in a world where there's lots of resources to do that.

(00:13:51.223):
And so I think that there's a lot of onus and importance for us as parents

(00:13:55.865):
to be talking to our children about sexuality and all of its forms and especially

(00:14:01.087):
about the importance of bodily autonomy and consent.

(00:14:04.036):
Absolutely.

(00:14:04.636):
Well, and, you know, they're really interested in it, especially when they're little.

(00:14:09.959):
My toddler has a pop-up vulva book that is like, it's like her favorite book.

(00:14:16.123):
And she terrorizes guests with it.

(00:14:18.364):
You know,

(00:14:18.725):
she follows them around,

(00:14:20.365):
like opening the book and being like, and these are the labia.

(00:14:23.227):
I bet you don't know what the clitoris is.

(00:14:24.948):
And I'm just like, part of me is proud.

(00:14:27.390):
And part of me is like, okay, please, please don't let this person freak out.

(00:14:30.611):
Yeah.

(00:14:32.130):
Well, and sometimes they do.

(00:14:33.391):
I'm sorry.

(00:14:34.092):
Oh,

(00:14:34.773):
no, no.

(00:14:35.113):
Go ahead.

(00:14:35.713):
They do.

(00:14:36.374):
And sometimes they do because I've had these conversations where

(00:14:39.937):
because I only raised my son using clinical language to talk about bodies,

(00:14:45.082):
he would use language like, you know, scrotum or penis or whatever it was.

(00:14:50.527):
And then there were other parents who were upset or educators in a,

(00:14:55.252):
you know,

(00:14:55.492):
kind of preschool kind of Contacts who were very, very,

(00:14:59.455):
you know,

(00:14:59.755):
clutching their pearls and upset and like,

(00:15:01.936):
you're teaching inappropriate language to my children.

(00:15:05.398):
And I'm like,

(00:15:06.659):
I'm sorry,

(00:15:07.440):
are you telling me that clinical language

(00:15:09.981):
about our children's bodies is inappropriate?

(00:15:13.763):
What world are we living in?

(00:15:16.085):
Yeah, it's just wild and it's just basic knowledge.

(00:15:20.147):
But, you know, I...

(00:15:22.158):
I think when you are a parent who thinks about these things and

(00:15:25.481):
who spends time talking with other parents who think about these things,

(00:15:29.726):
it can become very easy to become distanced from what it is like for a lot

(00:15:33.850):
of children and a lot of families.

(00:15:34.971):
And I'll tell you a story and give you an example.

(00:15:37.293):
So I had my annual gynecologist exam yesterday,

(00:15:41.798):
and I usually take some combination of my kids with me.

(00:15:45.493):
But he didn't yesterday.

(00:15:46.694):
And so I got in there and they all looked a little disappointed to see me.

(00:15:51.397):
And one of the nurses was like, well, where's that crazy little toddler?

(00:15:54.538):
And I was like, oh, she's at home with her dad.

(00:15:57.800):
And then, you know, I heard some like chitter-chattering about, oh, she's so cute.

(00:16:01.322):
She's so funny in the background.

(00:16:03.263):
And I finally asked, okay, like, what did she do?

(00:16:06.665):
Because, you know, I can't remember everything this wild child does.

(00:16:09.246):
Right.

(00:16:11.023):
And the midwife who had done my exam the previous year was like, well,

(00:16:15.627):
what I remember really clearly was when I did your exam,

(00:16:20.612):
your toddler standing in front of the stirrups,

(00:16:23.595):
jumping up and down and saying, I can't wait to see the jelly donut.

(00:16:27.718):
Where's the cervix?

(00:16:30.060):
And I just like, I started cracking up because like, yeah, that's her.

(00:16:34.745):
And that's kind of how I've raised my kids.

(00:16:37.632):
But then the flip side is I have a friend who's a very progressive sex educator and

(00:16:42.253):
who goes to schools to teach kids kind of basic science,

(00:16:45.534):
not even so much the consent, the ethics, all of that.

(00:16:49.395):
Just like here's what periods are.

(00:16:50.875):
Here's what a penis is.

(00:16:52.976):
And she told me the story about how she was teaching at an incredibly progressive,

(00:16:58.777):
very small school,

(00:17:00.778):
working with seventh and eighth graders this year, not 50 years ago.

(00:17:06.117):
And several of the girls had gotten in

(00:17:08.599):
the class reported they had gotten their periods without knowing what a period is.

(00:17:13.423):
In this progressive school, their parents had not even taught them about periods.

(00:17:20.049):
Right.

(00:17:21.150):
And it's just, it's mind-blowing to me.

(00:17:23.452):
And so I think it's easy to forget that the sort of stuff that seems perhaps to you

(00:17:30.017):
and me and to a lot of listeners,

(00:17:31.398):
like we've heard that a million times before,

(00:17:33.795):
Is not necessarily making its way into the wider culture.

(00:17:37.657):
Absolutely.

(00:17:38.297):
And I think that's so much of my experience,

(00:17:41.779):
especially in relationship to research or even just in my friend groups kind

(00:17:45.401):
of bears this out that so many people come from cultural contexts.

(00:17:50.470):
And just households where sex was just not and sexuality was not something

(00:17:55.551):
that was talked about and bodies were not talked about.

(00:17:59.152):
And in a way that really thwarts our ability to not only make kind

(00:18:03.233):
of healthy choices in our erotic lives,

(00:18:06.334):
but ones that lead to satisfying, pleasurable erotic lives as well.

(00:18:12.356):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:18:14.607):
So I want to shift a little bit more toward your book.

(00:18:17.389):
Yeah.

(00:18:17.889):
A couple of weeks ago, I interviewed the philosopher Kate Mann on the podcast.

(00:18:22.552):
Our whole focus was on sort of the normalization and the mainstreamization,

(00:18:28.195):
for lack of a better word, of sexual strangulation.

(00:18:31.817):
And so that was ostensibly the focus of the podcast.

(00:18:35.540):
But what we really ended up talking about is how No matter how you feel

(00:18:41.296):
about this practice,

(00:18:42.197):
no matter what your analysis is,

(00:18:43.698):
no matter what you think it means,

(00:18:47.601):
culture influences our sexuality and our sexuality influences culture

(00:18:51.483):
and they reflect each other and they build upon each other.

(00:18:53.965):
And yet we continue to have great difficulty acknowledging that reality.

(00:18:58.688):
I think we like to think of ourselves as extremely unique beings making pure,

(00:19:04.012):
uncorrupted choices outside of culture.

(00:19:07.285):
And that's not really the case because we're cultural beings.

(00:19:10.527):
So can you talk a bit about sex as a political act and maybe even politics as a sexual act?

(00:19:19.416):
Absolutely.

(00:19:20.257):
And I think in some ways,

(00:19:21.217):
I want to answer this in two ways,

(00:19:22.579):
because I was also thinking about one of the things that gets lost

(00:19:25.701):
when we're educating young people in particular,

(00:19:28.143):
but really everybody about sexuality is the politics of sexuality.

(00:19:32.526):
And I've been thinking,

(00:19:34.788):
even thinking about the Vignette that you started our conversation with

(00:19:38.791):
and sexual coercion and issues around consent.

(00:19:42.954):
And again, how we can be better educating people around that.

(00:19:46.497):
When it comes to the book,

(00:19:48.935):
Just the other day at iPod,

(00:19:50.161):
because I'm still thinking about this so much,

(00:19:53.450):
So maybe in some ways this comment is self-serving,

(00:19:55.972):
but this is to say somebody was like, your son's not going to read this book, right?

(00:20:02.837):
And I was like, well, yeah, my son and I have had this conversation.

(00:20:06.480):
And I kind of tried to leave it at that in that moment.

(00:20:11.184):
But for me,

(00:20:11.944):
the reason why I said that was because for me,

(00:20:14.747):
there's a lot of my kind of sexual life and sexual history in this book.

(00:20:20.231):
And I think that some amount of boundaries between children And their parents

(00:20:24.454):
or caregivers around the specifics of their sex lives and sexual histories,

(00:20:29.917):
that having some boundaries around that, I think for me, feels appropriate.

(00:20:34.900):
But the person was really kind of speaking to a lot of my experiences

(00:20:39.703):
of sexual violence and sexual assault.

(00:20:43.425):
And the person was like, you don't want him to know that those things happen to you.

(00:20:49.670):
And while in the context of that conversation,

(00:20:52.131):
for reasons that I won't get into, I just left the conversation there.

(00:20:56.112):
But I think that for me,

(00:20:58.032):
and I realize that this is a very personal choice,

(00:21:00.373):
but my son knowing that I have had experiences

(00:21:04.053):
of sexual violence actually feels important for him to know, for me.

(00:21:07.994):
And I think that part of socializing Our children and teaching them

(00:21:12.683):
about sexuality means teaching them about the political realities of sexuality

(00:21:18.769):
and especially for people who have lived experiences of women, right?

(00:21:23.813):
And so that,

(00:21:24.554):
for example,

(00:21:25.915):
You know,

(00:21:26.395):
part of conversations that I've already been having with my son and

(00:21:29.256):
that I think people could be having with,

(00:21:31.616):
and I don't want to just say their sons,

(00:21:33.876):
but for me,

(00:21:34.757):
I think it's especially important for young straight men to kind of understand

(00:21:40.418):
the realities of sexual violence and what that means, right?

(00:21:44.218):
So if you understand your job as a sexual partner is providing pleasure, to me,

(00:21:49.659):
I would revise that and say,

(00:21:51.219):
you know, if you were having sex with women, I think that, you know, you...

(00:21:55.100):
Your job is to create a context of safety so that she can experience pleasure, right?

(00:22:00.104):
And communicating to your partners,

(00:22:01.525):
whatever your sexual identity, that their consent is important to you.

(00:22:07.489):
And so again,

(00:22:08.050):
I just think that those political realities must be a really,

(00:22:12.673):
really important part of how we're educating our children and just people

(00:22:19.258):
about sexuality.

(00:22:22.352):
And then in terms of the book and more broadly, again,

(00:22:27.074):
I think that,

(00:22:27.494):
yeah, I think there's this tendency to treat sexuality as a private matter, right?

(00:22:33.396):
It's physiological,

(00:22:35.317):
it's biological,

(00:22:36.677):
it's somehow innate for a lot of people,

(00:22:39.218):
as opposed to understanding it as a political force, as a social force, right?

(00:22:43.840):
And so, so much of this book is about helping people to understand the way

(00:22:48.462):
that Our sexualities.

(00:22:51.322):
And again,

(00:22:52.002):
whether that's our desires,

(00:22:55.261):
our behaviors,

(00:22:56.503):
the erotic practices that we enjoy,

(00:22:59.084):
our identities,

(00:23:00.045):
how we label those practices,

(00:23:01.845):
how we label the erotic or sexual communities we're a part of,

(00:23:05.666):
the relationship structures, non-monogamy, monogamous, right?

(00:23:08.868):
That all of these things are part of our sexuality,

(00:23:10.928):
but they are shaped by social institutions around us, right?

(00:23:14.750):
That if we think for a moment about our desires,

(00:23:16.890):
it's important for people to consider how Everything from the media to our families

(00:23:22.373):
to governmental regulations,

(00:23:24.135):
how all of the educational institutions,

(00:23:26.236):
how all of these institutions around us and the cultures that we were raised

(00:23:30.619):
in shaped how we even understand those things.

(00:23:33.461):
When you think about desire for people who experience attraction and desire,

(00:23:36.884):
there's often, again, this essentializing way that people talk about those desires.

(00:23:42.348):
As if they couldn't help them.

(00:23:44.049):
I am just attracted to fill in the blank.

(00:23:47.422):
And while I appreciate that sentiment,

(00:23:49.584):
it's divorced from any connection to how, again,

(00:23:53.086):
the media or any other social forces have shaped your perceptions

(00:23:56.329):
of what you find attractive.

(00:23:59.391):
There's an entire desirability politics that is shaped by systems of power,

(00:24:04.514):
that is shaped by heteropatriarchy and white supremacy and ableism and cisgenderism

(00:24:09.818):
and so forth.

(00:24:11.079):
And I think it's important that we pay attention to that form of social, right?

(00:24:16.349):
Socialization.

(00:24:17.872):
But I also think it's important that we understand the way that our Sexualities

(00:24:23.013):
and forms of eroticism also shape the world around us, right?

(00:24:27.376):
There isn't a single institution that our sexualities don't touch.

(00:24:32.259):
And so our sexualities and human eroticism is also this really interesting force

(00:24:37.263):
for social change at the same time.

(00:24:39.745):
And in so many ways,

(00:24:40.806):
this book is really animated by all of the sexual rule breakers around the world

(00:24:46.790):
who challenge these hegemonic systems that tell us

(00:24:49.752):
that there are These appropriate ways to do sexuality.

(00:24:57.596):
Yeah.

(00:24:58.637):
While you're talking about this,

(00:25:00.318):
I'm thinking a lot about a lot of the women who read my work,

(00:25:05.540):
like a surprising number.

(00:25:08.390):
Are essentially political lesbians.

(00:25:10.951):
And I think that we can debate what that means and whether that's a problematic term

(00:25:16.774):
and all of that.

(00:25:18.275):
But they're essentially women who perceive themselves as heterosexual and

(00:25:21.757):
for probably most of their lives felt

(00:25:23.998):
that heterosexuality was just something they were

(00:25:26.199):
because we make people's sexualities their identity.

(00:25:29.080):
And then after a certain number of experiences with men,

(00:25:33.182):
they thought, well, I don't want anything to do with this now.

(00:25:37.253):
And began kind of actively cultivating an attraction to women

(00:25:40.975):
and are now exclusively with women and often with like non-binary

(00:25:45.296):
and gender fluid sorts of people.

(00:25:48.357):
And it's so interesting to me because I think a lot of these women are

(00:25:52.819):
the same women who like 20 years ago would have said,

(00:25:55.300):
you know, I hate that I'm attracted to men, but I am attracted to men.

(00:25:59.362):
And, you know, things change.

(00:26:02.763):
Yeah.

(00:26:03.890):
Indeed they do.

(00:26:05.271):
I mean, and I just want to say really quickly,

(00:26:06.571):
that's another thing that's really important that the change piece

(00:26:09.793):
that you just said,

(00:26:10.353):
I think is really important that sexuality is not something that's fixed.

(00:26:14.415):
It's constantly changing.

(00:26:15.956):
It's in flux.

(00:26:16.976):
Our desires are constantly changing.

(00:26:19.698):
How we might identify ourselves is often constantly changing.

(00:26:24.220):
And I think that that's important.

(00:26:25.761):
And I think it's important for people to embrace that, right?

(00:26:28.402):
That you don't have to, you know...

(00:26:30.721):
You don't have to stay in one particular position or identity, right?

(00:26:35.664):
That all of these things are in flux.

(00:26:38.186):
With respect to the political lesbians, well, I've never used this particular language.

(00:26:44.390):
I identify.

(00:26:45.793):
In a lot of ways, right?

(00:26:47.174):
Like,

(00:26:47.354):
while I've always understood my sexual attraction and desires as fluid, I mean,

(00:26:52.955):
since I'm very,

(00:26:53.696):
very young,

(00:26:54.956):
I think over the years,

(00:26:56.177):
I came to a place where I was like, honestly, I don't fuck with men.

(00:26:59.558):
Like, I just really can't fuck with them.

(00:27:01.638):
But it doesn't have to do with For me,

(00:27:05.895):
sex per se,

(00:27:07.176):
it has to do with my rejection of heteropatriarchy,

(00:27:11.080):
my desire for equity in my relationships,

(00:27:15.384):
and my feeling that,

(00:27:17.246):
you know, again,

(00:27:17.846):
that I don't want to be in any relationship that is structured by heteropatriarchy.

(00:27:23.392):
And I'll be honest with you,

(00:27:24.573):
over the years,

(00:27:25.193):
my experience has been that even Even with men

(00:27:28.877):
who fancy themselves incredibly progressive,

(00:27:32.819):
men who I've met who would even identify as feminists,

(00:27:36.642):
that because they were socialized under heteropatriarchy,

(00:27:41.365):
that even those men,

(00:27:43.046):
even in those relationships, heteropatriarchy was rearing its head.

(00:27:47.969):
And I'm just not interested in that.

(00:27:50.690):
And so it's just interesting because I identify with that a lot.

(00:27:56.119):
So, okay,

(00:27:56.859):
I love that you've raised this because this gives me a chance to talk about one

(00:28:00.160):
of my favorite axes to find,

(00:28:03.381):
which is that I am a queer,

(00:28:05.981):
kind of mostly lesbian identified woman married to a man.

(00:28:10.822):
And, you know, and my husband is, you know, the feminist man that like you just identified.

(00:28:17.363):
But like a genuine one,

(00:28:18.644):
not that you can't criticize me because I'm such a feminist guy,

(00:28:22.965):
which most of them are.

(00:28:24.985):
You know, he's a civil rights litigator and he's an equal parent.

(00:28:27.387):
And like,

(00:28:27.667):
I'm not,

(00:28:28.488):
we're not here to pray,

(00:28:29.508):
but we're not here to praise him because like that's the bar.

(00:28:32.591):
Like, but he's, he's good.

(00:28:34.993):
I'm thrilled with my marriage, all of that.

(00:28:36.754):
So that's kind of like the framework on which I build this.

(00:28:38.936):
But I will say from experience,

(00:28:42.658):
even when you are with an equal partner,

(00:28:44.760):
even when you are with a man who understands consent,

(00:28:47.442):
even when you're with a man who has really unpacked his socialization and all

(00:28:50.965):
that, Outside forces are still bringing heteropatriarchy in.

(00:28:56.587):
And so while my husband may not actively be working to oppress me,

(00:29:01.108):
there are plenty of other forces working really hard to get him to oppress me.

(00:29:05.749):
And I think that's where kind of it's important to have the systems lens of,

(00:29:10.230):
okay, well, maybe he's not a bad guy.

(00:29:11.551):
Maybe he's not abusive.

(00:29:12.571):
Maybe he's nice, whatever.

(00:29:14.231):
But there's still a larger system that is acting on that.

(00:29:17.105):
Relationship and really working hard to make our interactions and our life

(00:29:21.827):
and our behaviors all look a certain way.

(00:29:25.069):
Absolutely.

(00:29:26.370):
I agree 100%.

(00:29:28.751):
And to be honest with you,

(00:29:30.011):
I think that is why I have not had relationships with cis men in a very long time.

(00:29:35.034):
Yeah.

(00:29:35.454):
I mean, I would not say it again.

(00:29:36.935):
I mean, I love my husband and we're extraordinarily happy together.

(00:29:39.916):
I don't want to give the impression that like he was a mistake.

(00:29:43.278):
But what I have learned is that There's always going to be misogyny,

(00:29:48.665):
even if it doesn't come from a partner.

(00:29:50.827):
And a man is always a really good path for the misogyny to make its way in.

(00:29:56.332):
So like as a trivial example,

(00:29:58.674):
and it's the one people often cite,

(00:30:01.597):
my husband does the pick up and drop off at school.

(00:30:03.999):
And, you know, he does probably like 60% of the parenting.

(00:30:06.842):
But guess who the school calls when they're sick?

(00:30:09.044):
Absolutely.

(00:30:09.905):
No matter how many times we tell them not to.

(00:30:13.994):
Absolutely.

(00:30:14.534):
I've had this experience as well.

(00:30:16.775):
My son's father is a cis man and we co-parent since the time he was a very, very little baby.

(00:30:26.059):
And this has always been the case for me.

(00:30:29.221):
No matter how many times I say, please, here's an extra email.

(00:30:33.643):
Please just add this.

(00:30:34.923):
Or please, I am working.

(00:30:36.904):
I am teaching all day today.

(00:30:38.965):
Please call this number.

(00:30:40.666):
They do not.

(00:30:42.152):
Right.

(00:30:43.273):
So I've I've 100 percent understand.

(00:30:47.115):
And I think something else you said really resonates with me and that the bar is really low.

(00:30:52.119):
And there are these moments where I'm like,

(00:30:54.260):
you're giving him a cookie just for, you know, achieving this really low bar.

(00:31:00.404):
Oh, he's such a good dude.

(00:31:01.925):
You know, he doesn't cheat.

(00:31:03.706):
And, you know, he's very respectful of you and in your career.

(00:31:07.989):
And he's very progressive.

(00:31:09.390):
And I'm like, yeah, but that's That's a low bar.

(00:31:14.634):
And I just want more than that.

(00:31:17.255):
And just all of the different ways that even if I think about that relationship,

(00:31:22.077):
like you're saying the way that other people in our lives and just in

(00:31:25.278):
the world would constantly want to reinforce these heteropatriarchal standards

(00:31:30.020):
or raise eyebrows.

(00:31:32.821):
So if he was staying home With someone who was a very,

(00:31:36.263):
very little baby,

(00:31:37.023):
it was like,

(00:31:37.704):
oh, you know, or people like, oh, because I didn't really take maternity leave.

(00:31:41.506):
Like I went right back to work because those, you know, were my economic circumstances.

(00:31:47.049):
And it was like people judging and shaming.

(00:31:49.390):
Why are you doing that?

(00:31:50.851):
He should go get a second job or something.

(00:31:53.292):
Like, why are you even still working?

(00:31:55.093):
And I'm like, what is happening here?

(00:31:57.734):
I just don't want this.

(00:32:00.337):
Isn't it wild how they are praised for the things that we are shamed for?

(00:32:05.398):
And that's a lot of what I'm talking about.

(00:32:07.179):
And, you know, we're getting quite a bit away from sexuality.

(00:32:10.560):
I do think it's worth talking about.

(00:32:13.461):
My husband and I,

(00:32:14.361):
with our most recent child,

(00:32:16.061):
got a really amazing comparison because in my third trimester,

(00:32:20.623):
he had gallbladder surgery, which is like major surgery.

(00:32:23.223):
You know, it knocks me down and there's a recovery and, you know, there's pain and all of that.

(00:32:29.405):
And I took wonderful, loving care of him for like the time that he was recovering.

(00:32:34.029):
And he also continued to care for the children while he was recovering and continued

(00:32:38.653):
to do household labor and all of that.

(00:32:41.896):
And the texts I would get from friends about,

(00:32:44.378):
oh, God, Jeff is so wonderful that he made dinner a week after gallbladder surgery.

(00:32:49.843):
Like, you know, women come home from C-sections and six hours later are vacuuming.

(00:32:55.812):
And so then,

(00:32:56.433):
you know, sure enough, I gave birth a couple of weeks later and the roles reversed.

(00:33:02.196):
He took great care of me.

(00:33:03.677):
You know, he was loving and he was parenting, but I was also doing labor.

(00:33:08.621):
And here again, everyone's like, oh, God, Jeff is so wonderful.

(00:33:13.724):
Look at how he gets up with the baby.

(00:33:15.605):
Look at how he, I don't know, doesn't rape you in the postpartum period.

(00:33:18.988):
Yeah.

(00:33:20.802):
And it's just like, yeah, he was a good caregiver, but that's kind of the bar.

(00:33:26.906):
And, you know,

(00:33:27.446):
no one ever was like, oh, Jeff,

(00:33:29.067):
you need to be so grateful for Zawn that she,

(00:33:31.509):
you know, didn't force you to vacuum and rip open your gauntlet stitches.

(00:33:36.271):
Like, what?

(00:33:37.983):
The bar is so low,

(00:33:39.565):
and I've continued to learn this throughout my parenting,

(00:33:43.611):
even just engaging with moms,

(00:33:46.195):
just at the bus stop and listening to the conversation,

(00:33:49.440):
and I'll never forget, it was when I was waiting at the bus stop, and one

(00:33:57.432):
And one of them was telling the story about how every morning she has to wake up

(00:34:02.138):
with him early when he gets up for work because she has to find his boots for him.

(00:34:08.307):
Like I have to find his boots because,

(00:34:10.489):
you know, and I pack his lunch and he wouldn't be able to find his shoes without me.

(00:34:15.352):
And they're all laughing.

(00:34:16.933):
And I'm just like, this is not funny to me.

(00:34:19.414):
This is a this is a fucking crisis.

(00:34:22.897):
And this is just not a life I want.

(00:34:24.898):
The bar is so low.

(00:34:27.059):
And I keep thinking about that vignette that you started with.

(00:34:31.343):
And the sexual coercion that you were telling me has come up in recent themes in the podcast.

(00:34:38.813):
And I'm sure that many of your listeners know this history,

(00:34:42.358):
but thinking about marital rape, because you just said that before today.

(00:34:47.044):
This is something that doesn't first become illegal until 1976 in Nebraska and

(00:34:51.571):
then 1993 throughout the US.

(00:34:52.833):
I would suggest that that is a relatively recent history.

(00:35:01.145):
And just even de facto,

(00:35:02.908):
even if not de jure,

(00:35:03.889):
but de facto,

(00:35:05.912):
the sexual coercion in heteropatriarchal marriages,

(00:35:09.417):
in straight cis marriages in particular,

(00:35:12.562):
just seems to be really pervasive Just in the context of the research that I've done

(00:35:18.329):
and anecdotal conversations.

(00:35:20.170):
And it's like, well, you know, he does more things for me if I let him get some.

(00:35:25.914):
Or just the way that, yeah,

(00:35:27.495):
you know, I just, you know, we go at it and I just, you know, he finishes quickly.

(00:35:31.157):
And I'm just, this is very upsetting to me to hear.

(00:35:35.981):
And again, I think it's just this, the bar is so low.

(00:35:38.763):
And I think that the stuff that women put up with in a lot

(00:35:41.004):
of these relationships is really deplorable, actually.

(00:35:44.927):
Yes.

(00:35:45.436):
It's so bad.

(00:35:46.377):
And I remain convinced that the official statistics are just vastly underestimated.

(00:35:51.161):
Of course.

(00:35:52.543):
And I don't really know how that happens.

(00:35:54.484):
But to me,

(00:35:55.966):
it seems like very close to like 90 to 100 percent

(00:36:00.990):
of heterosexual women have some form of coercion in their marriage

(00:36:05.454):
and often outright rape.

(00:36:07.916):
Absolutely.

(00:36:08.837):
But I don't think that they would define it in those terms.

(00:36:11.520):
Yeah.

(00:36:11.700):
Yeah.

(00:36:12.288):
Well, you know, I did a survey of my readers

(00:36:15.089):
about a year ago and got a very large sample.

(00:36:17.850):
It was like four to five thousand.

(00:36:19.830):
And I asked them, has your current partner ever raped you?

(00:36:25.031):
And something like seven percent said yes.

(00:36:28.732):
And then I gave a list.

(00:36:31.339):
Of behaviors that would meet the legal definition of rape.

(00:36:34.120):
You know, has your partner threatened to harm you if you don't have sex?

(00:36:36.541):
Has your partner threatened self-harm if you don't have sex?

(00:36:38.521):
Has your partner physically forced you?

(00:36:40.162):
Has your partner made you afraid to say no?

(00:36:42.343):
These kinds of things.

(00:36:43.903):
And I don't remember the exact statistic, but it was well over 50% said yes.

(00:36:47.945):
And I think those two data points together really reveal a lot.

(00:36:51.746):
Absolutely.

(00:36:52.846):
And I think that there's often a lot of emphasis on kind of physical coercion.

(00:36:58.622):
And not on the really psychological forms of coercion and manipulation

(00:37:03.267):
that I think often kind of set up those forms of sexual assault

(00:37:09.153):
in people's relationships.

(00:37:11.195):
Absolutely.

(00:37:11.962):
And it's interesting to me because there's a moment

(00:37:13.984):
where you said we're getting away from sexuality.

(00:37:16.326):
But I think in some ways,

(00:37:17.827):
this is one of the points of the book is that I think a lot of people

(00:37:22.791):
in mainstream culture often kind of conflate sex and sexuality.

(00:37:27.836):
And when we're thinking about sexuality,

(00:37:29.517):
I think our relationships are actually a key component of Of our erotic lives,

(00:37:35.844):
of our sexualities, right?

(00:37:37.847):
And I think that we,

(00:37:39.630):
and I think one of the points of this book is to encourage people,

(00:37:42.814):
hopefully to empower people,

(00:37:44.978):
especially marginalized people,

(00:37:46.420):
especially the women that we've just been talking about.

(00:37:50.643):
If

(00:37:54.644):
you don't like the structure of your relationship,

(00:37:58.725):
if you don't like the way that external systems of power,

(00:38:01.726):
like heteropatriarchy or white supremacy or ableist,

(00:38:04.507):
if you don't like the way that any of these systems are shaping your relationships,

(00:38:09.391):
You can resist and there are alternative ways of organizing these relationships

(00:38:14.618):
in ways that will feel better,

(00:38:17.122):
that will be more profoundly empowering and pleasurable to you.

(00:38:21.108):
And I want to be clear because I don't want to be dismissive.

(00:38:23.992):
Believe me,

(00:38:24.292):
especially when it comes to heteropatriarchal relationships,

(00:38:26.813):
I understand all of the ways that external systems outside of us,

(00:38:31.455):
our families,

(00:38:32.555):
our communities exert an enormous amount of pressure and that there's forms

(00:38:38.818):
of marginalization and stigma that can come from rebuking those norms.

(00:38:46.541):
But there is so much empowerment and pleasure in resisting them.

(00:38:51.527):
Yeah, completely, completely agree.

(00:38:53.408):
And people so often feel that they have to like earn their way out of a relationship.

(00:38:56.909):
Like it has to be bad enough, but it's just not the way.

(00:38:59.989):
I see this all of the time, all of the time.

(00:39:03.010):
And even just in my own kind of personal friendships and just like you deserve so much better.

(00:39:08.872):
I know, I know.

(00:39:09.812):
Well, the thing that I always tell people is, you know, like I draw on my own experience.

(00:39:14.794):
I married a man and that entails a certain amount of risk.

(00:39:18.054):
And so for me to undertake that risk, That marriage had to offer me so much in return.

(00:39:23.784):
And like, why would I do that if I wasn't getting so much in return?

(00:39:26.826):
Like why?

(00:39:27.387):
Absolutely.

(00:39:28.067):
That needs to be the calculus.

(00:39:30.109):
Absolutely.

(00:39:31.770):
So I've been thinking a lot lately about sex positivity,

(00:39:35.953):
and I'm going to try to explain my thoughts to you.

(00:39:39.536):
They're still poorly formed,

(00:39:41.157):
but I feel like you're the person who might help me reformulate them

(00:39:45.921):
a little bit better.

(00:39:46.741):
I hope so.

(00:39:48.142):
So I...

(00:39:50.217):
Try to identify as a sex positive feminist in all the normal things that

(00:39:54.639):
that typically means in our movement.

(00:39:57.280):
But I've also felt a shift in recent years,

(00:39:59.921):
particularly in liberal white feminist spaces,

(00:40:04.663):
toward defining sex positivity as basically like you're not allowed to interrogate,

(00:40:11.745):
criticize,

(00:40:12.586):
or even really like discuss any act of sexuality in Also toward like

(00:40:17.701):
a very single-minded obsession with orgasms and away from any real radicalism.

(00:40:24.363):
Well, often like saying that this is radical,

(00:40:26.784):
that it's radical that we can't talk meaningfully about like what sex means.

(00:40:32.006):
So the conversation feels to me like it's shifted toward this idea

(00:40:35.667):
that all sex-related things are unquestioned goods.

(00:40:41.529):
But I think it's more complicated than that as our discussion reveals.

(00:40:46.088):
I don't think that we have an ethical mandate to view sex positively or

(00:40:50.010):
in any particular way,

(00:40:50.930):
really, or to have like a relentlessly positive view towards sexuality.

(00:40:55.252):
So when I was getting ready for this interview,

(00:40:58.073):
I looked you up and looked up sex positivity to see what you had said.

(00:41:02.675):
And I found this great paper you wrote in 2022.

(00:41:07.356):
And you define sex positivity so simply as the political act

(00:41:12.038):
of defining your sexuality on your own terms.

(00:41:15.140):
Yes.

(00:41:15.821):
And I was just like, that's so beautiful.

(00:41:18.543):
And that is so different from what I have been told and from the kinds

(00:41:23.106):
of conversations I have about this.

(00:41:26.228):
Can you talk to me a little bit about this

(00:41:27.930):
and help me understand like what's going wrong in sex positive communities,

(00:41:32.413):
or at least communities that label themselves sex positive with these discussions?

(00:41:36.676):
Indeed, I can and with much enthusiasm and joy.

(00:41:41.715):
I think, and I would also include here the word empowerment.

(00:41:46.399):
Both the language of sex positivity and empowerment yawn.

(00:41:51.643):
And I think to the point where sometimes I even roll my eyes

(00:41:55.286):
because I think they've become these hollow...

(00:41:59.132):
Buzzwords divorced from any critical lens in the way that you're describing.

(00:42:05.755):
So for me, sex positivity in particular has become so much about the freedom to fuck, right?

(00:42:14.438):
So reducing it in the way that you were just talking about to orgasms.

(00:42:18.020):
So there's this really wonderful piece by Breanne Foss where she talks about,

(00:42:23.022):
feminist Breanne Foss,

(00:42:23.842):
where she talks about the differences in distinguishing between the freedom

(00:42:29.150):
And freedom from.

(00:42:30.190):
And what that means is so much of mainstream sex positive discourse is really told

(00:42:36.932):
through the lens of freedom too.

(00:42:39.373):
So you're being sex positive if you're out there having lots of sex and lots

(00:42:44.154):
of orgasms,

(00:42:45.294):
and it's just really reducing sex positivity to your freedom to have orgasms.

(00:42:50.129):
Of the sex you want in the world,

(00:42:51.970):
to which I would also add,

(00:42:55.531):
this is also reinforcing what we call compulsory sexuality because there's,

(00:42:59.613):
you know, you should then also add the freedom to not want to have sex at all.

(00:43:04.275):
But what really gets lost in so much of that mainstream discourse is the freedom from.

(00:43:11.313):
That we need to add to that conversation the freedom

(00:43:15.698):
from heteropatriarchal violence,

(00:43:18.742):
the freedom from white supremacist violence,

(00:43:21.345):
the freedom from all of these oppressive structures and the way that any of the,

(00:43:26.791):
for example,

(00:43:27.732):
sexual violence that people face stems from These systems,

(00:43:33.057):
it's not just about bad men or bad people.

(00:43:35.838):
It's about the systems that empower those individuals to behave in the way that they are.

(00:43:42.381):
So I think that for me is what gets lost in a lot of the mainstream sex positive discourse.

(00:43:49.464):
Yeah, that's really helpful.

(00:43:51.844):
You know,

(00:43:52.104):
it feels like we have to have freedom from these forces

(00:43:56.666):
before we can even really talk about empowerment,

(00:43:58.547):
because how can you even really make an empowered choice when It might not be safe

(00:44:03.223):
to make another choice.

(00:44:04.804):
Absolutely.

(00:44:05.744):
And what is it that people mean when they say empowering anyway?

(00:44:11.386):
I mean, for me,

(00:44:12.767):
and Koa Beck talks about this so well in her book,

(00:44:15.168):
which is critiquing white liberal feminism and talking about the way that

(00:44:19.589):
when people think about empowerment,

(00:44:20.930):
it's like,

(00:44:21.530):
Everything is empowering and you're kind of boss bitch feminist

(00:44:24.992):
and you're empowered.

(00:44:26.413):
And I think it's divorced from political systems, right?

(00:44:29.935):
That for me, empowerment stems from Resisting political structures.

(00:44:39.474):
And it is very much for me an embodied or corporeal experience, right?

(00:44:43.976):
It's not something that some snake oil salesman is selling me, right?

(00:44:47.898):
Like there's all of these discourses that if only you have the right sex toys

(00:44:51.440):
or you go to the right sex class or you've consumed the right sex product,

(00:44:56.382):
you can be sexually empowered.

(00:44:58.783):
And it's totally divorced from...

(00:45:02.855):
Politics, right?

(00:45:04.055):
And from what happens for us when we are resisting and challenging systems of power,

(00:45:09.276):
that for me, that is the loci or the locus of empowerment.

(00:45:15.137):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:45:17.378):
So we're low on time.

(00:45:19.318):
So I want to ask you kind of one final big question that I don't have an answer to.

(00:45:26.119):
I don't have theories about this.

(00:45:27.919):
I have no idea what to think of this or like what you're going to say.

(00:45:32.988):
I have written so many times that really one of the very few subjects that I write

(00:45:39.472):
about,

(00:45:39.652):
and I write about a lot of stuff that's really controversial,

(00:45:42.374):
but the only one that really consistently gets me death threats,

(00:45:47.257):
angry emails,

(00:45:48.458):
people saying,

(00:45:49.159):
you know,

(00:45:49.439):
you've betrayed me and you're not who I thought you were,

(00:45:53.422):
is anything I write about sexuality at all.

(00:45:56.226):
Somehow I am simultaneously too anti-sex work and too pro-sex work,

(00:46:01.648):
too anti-kink and too pro-kink, too anti-porn and too pro-porn.

(00:46:08.130):
Write about any of these things and everybody suddenly hates you.

(00:46:12.452):
And it's very difficult to come together and to have meaningful disagreements,

(00:46:19.294):
to say, okay,

(00:46:20.514):
you think pornography is harmful and I agree to some extent,

(00:46:24.390):
but let's look at what happens when we ban it.

(00:46:27.854):
Before you can even finish this sentence, people are refusing to talk to one another.

(00:46:33.041):
Absolutely.

(00:46:34.763):
What is this?

(00:46:35.685):
Why is this happening?

(00:46:39.363):
This is such a great question and something that I experience all of the time.

(00:46:44.150):
And especially,

(00:46:44.771):
as you know,

(00:46:45.272):
since a lot of my research and advocacy work has been around sex work

(00:46:50.700):
and sexual commerce, this is something that I experience all of the time.

(00:46:54.585):
From people on the internet to legislators that I work with in some of

(00:46:59.008):
the policy work that I do.

(00:47:01.449):
And it's these really knee-jerk reactions that I think are rooted

(00:47:05.331):
in what sex workers call whorephobia,

(00:47:08.413):
which is institutionalized hatred and stigma and discrimination against sex workers.

(00:47:14.757):
And it's entanglements with heteropatriarchy, right?

(00:47:17.638):
And so I think that,

(00:47:19.459):
and I also think that there are these People are often raised

(00:47:22.783):
in these cultures around sex that tell them that sex is relational.

(00:47:29.253):
It is even if...

(00:47:32.994):
You're somebody who doesn't understand sex as sacred,

(00:47:36.356):
that for many people,

(00:47:37.537):
it is still something that is profoundly relational,

(00:47:40.098):
should be done in the context of a relationship,

(00:47:43.380):
even for people who would say,

(00:47:44.541):
oh, it doesn't have to be a married relationship, but it should still be relational.

(00:47:49.444):
And so there's still this thinking of sex as something that is kind of sacred

(00:47:55.628):
and relational,

(00:47:57.169):
and that it is not something that That should be used for commerce or for work,

(00:48:03.994):
which I obviously think is a misguided perception.

(00:48:07.966):
And I think it's so interesting.

(00:48:09.998):
You're reminding me of some of the policy work that I've done where I have sat

(00:48:13.681):
in rooms with legislators and have done presentations,

(00:48:18.345):
have written scientific memos for a number of legislatures

(00:48:20.947):
that Eric Considering bills to decriminalize sex work in all of the social science,

(00:48:25.982):
I mean,

(00:48:26.483):
decades of international social science unequivocally supports the decriminalization

(00:48:32.728):
of the consensual exchange of sex.

(00:48:35.630):
And because it promotes positive public health outcomes, has effects in decreasing trafficking.

(00:48:45.097):
There's just so many positive outcomes through that legislation and the science supports that.

(00:48:51.913):
But every time,

(00:48:53.893):
it seems like you get this knee-jerk reaction from legislators that we talk to,

(00:48:58.714):
where it's like they're still resting on this idea that it is sacred.

(00:49:02.835):
And I think in a lot of those conversations,

(00:49:04.456):
what also, again,

(00:49:05.356):
becomes apparent to me, is that so much of this is also heteropatriarchal, right?

(00:49:11.137):
We are going to save women, although, again, keep in mind, there's a...

(00:49:15.950):
Very significant diversity of people across the gender spectrum who work

(00:49:19.315):
in sex industries,

(00:49:20.176):
not just women,

(00:49:21.498):
but there's this thinking that we need to save women from these industries,

(00:49:24.783):
rather than thinking about ways to improve any labor exploitation that may exist

(00:49:30.732):
in those And those industries aren't inherently more exploitative

(00:49:34.615):
than any capitalist industry, right?

(00:49:37.017):
So if you're concerned about exploitation and sexual commerce,

(00:49:40.119):
you should be concerned about exploitation in all capitalist industries and,

(00:49:43.802):
in my opinion, treated as such.

(00:49:45.263):
And I think one of the things that I talk about specifically in the conclusion of

(00:49:48.145):
the book Is this knee jerk reaction towards prohibition as opposed to thinking

(00:49:54.739):
about these issues through the lens of harm reduction.

(00:49:57.962):
I would never argue that exploitation doesn't exist in sex industries.

(00:50:02.727):
Of course it does the same way it does in any capitalist industry,

(00:50:05.811):
but we need to be thinking about how to make that industry safer for all of

(00:50:10.275):
the people.

(00:50:12.157):
The same way we have done,

(00:50:13.438):
if you look at the decriminalization of marijuana,

(00:50:16.201):
if you look at gambling industries, right?

(00:50:20.164):
The approach through harm reduction always leads to better outcomes than outright prohibition.

(00:50:25.850):
And this knee-jerk reaction and tendency towards prohibition is something

(00:50:29.973):
that I too often have a hard time wrapping my head around.

(00:50:34.858):
And the amount of kind of bad faith Arguments that I get

(00:50:39.508):
from people are conversations that I have with people

(00:50:42.030):
that no matter how much scientific evidence,

(00:50:46.334):
no matter how much sex workers,

(00:50:47.775):
for example,

(00:50:48.516):
provide their own testimony and own stories,

(00:50:51.959):
people are basically gaslighting them and telling them, no, no, no, no, no, right?

(00:50:56.022):
What you're saying doesn't matter, right?

(00:50:57.824):
Because we need to stop this.

(00:50:59.966):
And like you, I sometimes have a really hard time wrapping my head around why?

(00:51:08.196):
Yeah, just the why.

(00:51:09.236):
So what I would say to listeners listening to this who think that Angela or I

(00:51:14.077):
or both of us are wrong about something is engage with us.

(00:51:18.198):
Post a comment that actually meets us where we are rather than making

(00:51:23.079):
a straw person argument or attacking us as bad feminists.

(00:51:27.260):
And convince me.

(00:51:28.980):
Tell me where I'm wrong.

(00:51:30):
Tell me what I'm getting wrong.

(00:51:31.061):
And let's talk about it.

(00:51:32.821):
We need to be able to talk to each other because that's

(00:51:35.481):
the only way we can build meaningful solidarity.

(00:51:39.093):
Absolutely.

(00:51:39.834):
And I think when it comes to sex work,

(00:51:41.755):
the other thing that I would recommend,

(00:51:43.156):
and I'm always happy to share resources with people.

(00:51:46.579):
In fact,

(00:51:47.059):
a couple of us created an entire syllabus

(00:51:50.461):
of sex worker written writing media resources,

(00:51:54.624):
because I think there's a lot of people talking for sex workers in

(00:51:58.767):
the public sphere,

(00:52:00.128):
as opposed to people actually listening to what sex workers are saying.

(00:52:03.431):
So if sex workers all over the world are saying,

(00:52:06.782):
That decriminalization is the policy that they want or

(00:52:10.085):
that these are their experiences.

(00:52:12.687):
Why are people not inclined to listen to what the very people who are impacted by

(00:52:18.171):
that legislation are saying?

(00:52:20.893):
Well, and it's because it's born of paternalism and the idea that, well,

(00:52:25.797):
they don't really know what's best for themselves because they're somehow less human

(00:52:30.221):
or less smart or less thoughtful than the person who's never even been in

(00:52:33.784):
the industry.

(00:52:34.484):
Right.

(00:52:35.105):
And how dehumanizing is that?

(00:52:37.013):
Totally.

(00:52:37.393):
I mean, it is the definition of dehumanization.

(00:52:40.715):
Absolutely.

(00:52:42.476):
So I want to encourage everyone to please go out and buy Angela's book, which is amazing.

(00:52:48.159):
Thank you.

(00:52:49.720):
It's out now.

(00:52:50.620):
It's so good.

(00:52:51.321):
It covers so much ground and it covers so many of the kinds of discussions

(00:52:55.943):
that we are all having.

(00:52:56.983):
So buy it for that reason.

(00:53:00.160):
Buy it also because you want publishers to publish more books like it.

(00:53:05.343):
You know, we live in a capitalist society, whether you like it or not.

(00:53:09.026):
And supporting this kind of work tells publishers that the next Angela

(00:53:14.889):
who comes along also deserves support and also deserves publication

(00:53:18.932):
and just helps us get more diversity in media.

(00:53:21.513):
So I hope you will buy it, like it, review it, and tell us what you think.

(00:53:27.797):
Love that.

(00:53:28.318):
Thank you.

(00:53:29.635):
Angela, this has been amazing.

(00:53:30.976):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

(00:53:32.717):
It's been just great having you.

(00:53:34.838):
My pleasure.

(00:53:36.579):
And I'll put all of Angela's information in the show notes.

(00:53:40.581):
They've published so much interesting stuff, so I'll try to provide some links.

(00:53:44.042):
But if there's something that we've mentioned that's not in the show notes,

(00:53:47.984):
feel free to leave a comment and one of us will try to get it to you.

(00:53:51.226):
And thank you so much for listening.

(00:53:53.227):
And I will be back in two weeks.