[00:00:00.100]
The Magic Podcast, hosted by Lloyd Barnes, Craig Petty, and Peter Turner's sex toy, Pig Cake. This is your all-access behind-the-scenes news inside the current happenings of the magic industry, where Craig and Lloyd will thrust themselves inside your ears while Pig Cake squeals in the cuck chair. Every Wednesday, they'll rant, dissect, and give you their raw and unfiltered views on the art of magic, This is your final warning. There will be bad language, cuss words, fuck bombs, and multiple references to Ted Karmilovic being a nonce. So if you can handle it, lock your doors, take out your deck, spread it nice and wide, and brace yourselves for The Magic Podcast.

[00:00:48.760]
Wee! Hey, welcome back to The Magic Podcast. And we're back, we're back, and once again we are back with Lloyd fucking Barnes, who took a week off to sleep basically. But I'm here with Lloyd Barnes, the man, the myth, the legend, the sheepshagger himself, and of course Miami's favourite son, my brother from another mother, the guy who currently looks like he's about to jump off a balcony because he is so far under his girlfriend's thumb he can't film this in his house. Luckily he lives in Miami where it's hot as Satan's armpits. We are of course talking about Little Pig Cake himself, the little, little, little, little, little tiny Pig Cake. Together, this is the Magic Podcast. Hello boys, how you doing?

[00:01:33.530]
Feeling pretty fucking good. The intro has hyped me up like a buck.

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I'm really pretty fucking good today, and that means Pig Cake's gonna fucking get it. How you all doing, mate?

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I don't like that, man. I feel like you guys brought me in just to be like, hey, he's a little fucking— I'm the mascot. I'm not even a member of the podcast. I'm a fucking mascot.

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No, you're a full-blown member. You're definitely a member.

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Okay, so then we're all Muppets. We're all mascots here, which is great.

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Like I said, I've already told you with the wrestling analogy, you're Vincent. I'm— my goodness.

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Of all people to—

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No, no, no, no, no, no. You're not. You're Brutus. You're the beady man.

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No, he's like a little— I'm like Rey Mysterio Jr. Okay.

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Oh, you're right. I like that you said junior, which lets me know you haven't watched Virginity, Professional Virginity. Wrestling in over 20 years, which is great.

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I remember watching NWA wrestling when I was— was it called NWA? When I was like 9 years old on dodgy TV.

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You did not watch NWA as a—

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Goldberg, Goldberg, Goldberg. I've got to tell you guys, I've watched a lot of wrestling.

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You're thinking NWO.

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Yes, that's what he's thinking.

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Goldberg was on there. He was cool.

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Yes, that's WCW. NWO was a faction inside WCW. Forget it.

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I like Rey Mysterio Jr. because he could do flips, and I always said I could do flips. I was like, oh, I want to do more flips like him.

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Lloyd, this is so embarrassing, dude. You don't even know.

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Watching wrestling, watching wrestling regularly, that's listening to this conversation is just massively just like, okay, your cunt points have gone through the roof.

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But then again, what's wrong? What's so wrong with Rey Mysterio Jr.?

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Nothing. It's not a junior. There's no junior.

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Yeah, yeah, I didn't know.

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It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

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Let's, let's move along. Okay. That's embarrassing. This is like, it was cool with me. I love Star Wars. This is the equivalent of what you just did. I love Star Wars, dude. It's my favourite. I absolutely love, uh, Spock. Like, you've, uh, all right. But, uh, I was just going to say that I'm in the balcony here.

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Look out, the bad guys with the lightsabers.

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It's my favourite. Yeah. I really love—

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wait, but is it not wrestling?

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What is what? Not—

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is NWO not wrestling?

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Yeah, you said NWA. NWA is the National Wrestling Alliance.

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NWO is something you watched. Is like saying, instead of saying I'm a member of the Magic community, you'd say, oh, I'm a— ah, I used to watch, uh, uh, Batman and Robin, Craig and Lloyd, they're the best. It's, it's kind of a small part of the program, you know.

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It's kind of like Craig It's even worse than that because he said I used to watch NWA, like the National Wrestling Alliance.

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He got the letter wrong.

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Yeah.

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What are you fucking—

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you middle-aged?

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What are you fucking— Nick Bockwinkel? You're watching fucking— you're watching fucking Greg Gagne. Okay. Anyway, so can we talk about Magic?

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This is the Magic episode.

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I want to talk Magic, and I've got a bone to pick with you. You weren't here last week because you were tired. Yeah, and that's fine. I know you had the week from hell. You had multiple lectures, you got caught in traffic, you literally slept through till about midday. There was like horrific traffic to one lecture, horrific traffic to the other lecture, and you still delivered like you always do. That's fine. I was like, oh Lloyd, no problem, me and Cake have got it, it's fine. And then what do I do? Then what do I do, Lloyd? Then what do I fucking do? I, I switch on Richard Young's fucking podcast, which is a professional podcast, not like ours. And I find that The week that you are too tired to do this podcast cuz you sleep through, you've cheated on us with shiny, shiny Alan Hudson and, and Richard Young going, oh, it's so nice to be on a professional podcast. Oh, our podcast is so shit. Sometimes we can't even upload it at the right channel at the right time. You guys do this so professionally. Excuse me, can you bend over Mr. Young while I firmly plant my tongue inside your anus and lick it over and over again.

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Please, can you pass me some of those sticks that Sam Strange had on AGT so I can shove them right up your asshole? Like, you cheating motherfucker. Oh, I'm going on someone else's podcast. Fuck you, Lloyd.

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Hey, I bent the knee. These guys, those guys, I said that. I said, look, when we reference good podcast, I see, I constantly say, I'm sick of this shit and no one should listen to it. Everyone should go and listen to the Magicians Podcast Network. We say it constantly. They are the good— if you want a good magic podcast, go and listen to this. And then they said, do you want to come on? I was like, absolutely. Let's see how it's done properly. So it took place at 6 PM in the evening. So, well, fuck then, as opposed to 6 AM.

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How did it feel? How did it feel doing a good podcast? Was there anything that you learned that you can bring on to the Magic podcast? I mean, obviously they've got Alan Hudson. We've got Pig Cake.

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Pig Cake's going into anaphylactic shock right there. What's going on?

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You know why? Because I'm in the balcony outside like a dog. All right. I brought my laptop, my camera equipment, and you overslept last week and you're on somebody else's podcast who, by the way, oh, look at that. They don't say curse words. They're so professional.

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I was allowed to say fuck.

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Yeah. Oh, you said fuck.

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I've heard someone swear on that podcast.

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They probably beat it.

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Was it actually?

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Oh, shit.

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Wow.

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So I asked, could I swear beforehand? It was, it was, it was really good. And it was really interesting because Richard's over in Chicago doing a theatre show. And I was like, I was like, they were like, how to interview me. But I wanted to know about like how he was like drumming up advertising for the show over there. Because he's always done some really interesting things like with Sky News and stuff to get promotion for his show. So I got to pick his brains a little bit about how he's promoting stuff. And I was just nervous. Those guys are, they're both really fucking good at what they do in magic. So the whole time I was just kind of like, oh, fuck, I'm talking to actual phenomenal magicians. One's a Penn Teller Fooler winner right there with his trophy just hanging like a big set of bollocks. And the other one's Richard Young doing a fucking theatre run in Chicago, and I'm here in my little shed. So the whole time I was like, I am overstepping my fucking ability level here.

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You know what I'm sorry— I'm sorry, do we not have the creator of Chopped in this fucking little interview?

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Chop, chop, don't, don't interrupt.

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Little retard, do not interrupt me. Okay, we have the inventor of Chopped Okay, and Hotspot, the number one best-selling trick in Alakazam history. Don't look that up, and please don't—

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you better understand this. You have— we have the— on this podcast, we have three people. One, we have the GOAT, we have Lloyd Barnes.

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We have to go more—

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literally changed this industry over and over again. Went into Illusionist, changed the game. Went to Murphy's, changed the game. Now he sets up Fourth Floor, changed the game. Has been single-handedly responsible for some of the most commercially successful tricks, both of his and other people's, over the last two decades. Then you have me, full-time Creator of the Year for Penguin. Won it so many times they're banning me from entering this year so somebody else can have a fucking go. 4-time Alakazam Creator of the Year, 2-time Alan Magic Creator of the Year. Fucking the, the fucking legend in this community. I sell more product in one day than most people do in one fucking year. And then we got Pick Cake as well. Yes.

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Whose side are you on? Whose side are you on here? Okay.

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We got the good— you want the big and the testicle in spectacles.

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So we're supposed to be double-teaming Craig Lloyd here, and you immediately— why? Because I call it chopped? Okay, I'm sorry. Fuck. You know, maybe I might join Richard Young's podcast.

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The inventor of putting a magnet in a chop.

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And to be fair, nobody else has done it before. All right. To be fair, nobody else fucking decided, hey, I want to put a magnet in a chop.

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I've spoken to two very respected people. You want to go on Richard Young's podcast? I've spoken to a couple of very respected people recently. Uh, me and Lloyd spoke to Andy Gladwin, who said in a text to us, thanks to Lloyd, thanks to Craig, and thanks to that little guy who I don't know. Um, then I spoke to David Penn, who was very upset that he'd upset Lloyd because he heard somebody on the podcast say, oh, I, I didn't want to shake his hand, pointing out that that was pig cake. And Dave Penn was like, what's a pig cake?

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Why is a pig cake? Why is pig cake?

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I'm going out on a limb here. I don't know if I'm right or not. I might be wrong. I'm willing to bet Richard Young has no fucking clue who you are.

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And you know what? The only thing I know about Richard Young, okay, is that he sounds like a fucking singer from the '80s. All right. It sounds like Richard Marx. So, so you know what? It goes both ways. All right. It's a highway like you. Like me. Oh, that's funny. Okay. Yeah.

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You know, you are cheating on Pete Turner with another mentalist at the moment, so I just wanna point that out.

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Uh, that is true. That is true. But, um, we can't speak about that. We can't say that. We won't say that yet. Yeah. We can't. Um, we just have to say guest. We just have to say guest for—

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speaking about stuff that we can't speak about, there must be an update cuz everyone has been waiting for this. 16th of July.

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Well, the 16th of July.

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Which magic, which is, by the way, we are softly calling it Magic Independence Day. This is Magic's Independence Day.

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Here's the thing. How American law works is—

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Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is potentially what people will wait for the hearing for the final round of legal, you're gonna see the court case.

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Yeah. So without putting too fine a point on it, I put in, my lawyer, Mark Randazza, put an anti-slap in., basically saying that the case should be thrown out of court. Penguin Magic, because a lot of people don't realise Penguin's involved in this as well. It's Masika versus Petty versus Penguin. Uh, Penguin put in their own sort of anti-SLAPP, uh, as well. Um, where they're saying this case has no merit, it needs to be thrown out of court. And, and so the judge has read everything. There's been lots of documents going back and forth, lots of different documents, lots of different things that people say. And then on the 16th of July, everyone got a chance to argue in front of the judge. So I'm a Sikh— well, not argue. The judge— that's not how these hearings work. How it works is you kind of think, when you think about hearing in front of a judge, that someone stands up and makes like some sort of motivational thing and, and does some sort of monologue. That's not really how it works. The judge comes in, he's read everything, and then asks questions to all the individual parties.

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So we'll say to, um, Penguin's lawyers, Ponzanelli, right, can you explain this? Can you explain this? Explain James, uh, speak, you know, he'll ask questions to Mark Randazzo, who's representing me, you know, what do you think of this, what do you think of this. Frederick Douglas, who's representing Yiga Masika, he'll ask lots of questions to them as well. Off the back of all of that stuff, you will then have the judge go away, and then at some point in the future, he will make a final written one, a final written ruling as to how he sees the case proceed. And it could either be ending at that point. It could end for Penguin and not for me, could end for me and not for Penguin. It could be completely narrowed. A lot of the points could be thrown out and, and owners—

[00:13:29.190]
could win.

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It could— you could not win. However, what can happen— you're fucking kidding me. Uh, Yumi Kosika can't win, but what he could do, the judge could say, no, Penguin's lawsuit is bullshit, it's Penguin's anti-slap is bullshit, Craig's anti-slap is bullshit, send it to trial. That's not a win, That's just a progression. It— what we're doing effectively here is stopping the case before we reach discovery, which is very expensive, and, and working what the next strategy is moving forward, right? So that's what this case was for. Now, I don't know really what's going to happen until the judge makes his final ruling. Um, I've spoken to my lawyer. I know what my lawyer believes. I've read a couple of documents, and I, I understand from those documents, I think the way that things could go, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't know for sure. I will be talking about this, and I will be talking about my strategy moving forward when the final written, um, ruling comes out. I can't really make much of a statement till then. What I will say is this lawsuit started in August 2025, and the, the, the video that was all based on was, was put up on July 14th, 2025.

[00:14:47.050]
So effectively, I've been dealing with this now. I've been dealing with this bullshit for a year, and I have been stressed. Uh, I have been haemorrhaging money left, right, and centre. I have not been able to focus on anything. Um, I have been holding on by a thread at times, and it's just been very overwhelming. And based on a couple of conversations I've had, even though I haven't seen the final rule going. For the last couple of days, I've been sleeping sound as a baby, and I, I, I, I, I, I feel very happy about the way things could be. Uh, I feel like I'm fucking back. And anybody who's listening to this podcast that's been thinking, well, Craig's been a bit of a bit down over the last year, been a bit depressed over the last year— yeah, I have. Yeah, I have. I've been going through American litigation. But you know what? I'm feeling pretty good about myself. I'm feeling pretty good about the way things are going. And, and, and I'm thinking by the end of the year, I'm going to be in a fucking good mood. If not by the end of the year, by the next month.

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I don't know. I can't really say anything else because I don't know until everything's been made official. But right now I'm feeling pretty fucking good.

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Oh my God. Are we getting Chopped 2.0?

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Yeah.

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Is that right?

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Is that right? It's called Chop. It's called Chop.

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Yeah.

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You know, I, I, that's, that's like him calling the NWO the NWA. I— that's the— okay, all right guys, I'm not gonna explain my bits here. Could you name the lawyers again? Like, name all the lawyers?

[00:16:16.310]
Yeah, so my lawyer is called— I mean, it's a public record, you can see it on page— yeah, my lawyer is, uh, Mark Randazzo from the Randazzo Legal Group, um, who is a giant. He's a great lawyer. He's represented, uh, he would— guys, love him.

[00:16:32.410]
I love him.

[00:16:34.220]
If you get a chance, just Fucking Google Mark Randazzo. It's a good brain.

[00:16:40.550]
I don't think anyone was expecting you to go, I see your court case and I raise you a Mark Randazzo.

[00:16:46.440]
No.

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That was the moment they knew they fucked up.

[00:16:49.960]
Mark Randazzo is amazing. Ponzanelli representing Penguin. So the Ponzanelli Law Group, which is really big. You know, like when you think of America and you think of those big global law firms that have multiple—

[00:17:04.630]
Morgan and Morgan.

[00:17:06.160]
Yeah, so that's Ponzanelli. Ponzanelli, okay. And, uh, Frederick Douglas represents, uh, Masika. I don't really know much about Frederick Douglas. I believe his specialist area is patent law, I believe, not necessarily defamation cases. Um, so I don't really know much about him. Uh, but yeah, he's, uh, he's a names dude, and he's been— sorry, years and years and years and years and years. He's got experience in the magic industry. Because he's been, um, um, uh, you know, uh, he's been helping Masika sue people for the Terrier, the Yorkshire Terrier on a leash.

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He's—

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yeah, he's been, he's been going out and, you know, doing— motherfuckers, he's been going out and enabling Masika for a long time. So, you know, he knows this industry well.

[00:17:53.420]
It sounds like a mob movie though. Like, all these names sound like a fucking mob movie. It's like fucking Rendezvous.

[00:17:59.500]
Yeah, it was a man. We got footage.

[00:18:01.670]
And then you got fucking Frederick Douglass, who's like a civil rights leader, like back in the day that somehow is now come from the dead to represent fucking Yagama Sika. I just love that notion. That's how I see it in my fucking retarded head.

[00:18:17.220]
So, so as soon as I know, the podcast audience will be the first to know. And then we'll make some choices depending on how the ruling goes. We'll make some choices about where to go from there. But I've come to—

[00:18:30.110]
Can we just, can we just like imagine, imagine you like just to bask in it for a second. Let's, let's say you win. Let's just imagine you win, right?

[00:18:39.840]
Okay.

[00:18:41.180]
How does that look for YouTube? Like how many celebratory videos are we gonna see? Can we do things like, I don't drink, but like, can we do like, can we go over the court case and every time a lie was told by the other team, could you do a shot so we get you wasted on camera? Can we go through like all the videos that he posted and then like make fun of them? What can we do on this victory lap? You know, if you win?

[00:19:03.780]
I think we do. We dedicate an entire month to it.

[00:19:07.970]
I think it has to be the biggest victory lap of all time.

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If you win.

[00:19:12.170]
If we win. The thing is, without— and I've said this right from the very beginning, this lawsuit is important for content creators in the Magic industry. This lawsuit— and we all are Magic content creators, both you, Lloyd, you, Big Cake, myself. Um, we're content creators and, and this lawsuit is important because it defines how we are able to speak about stuff that's happening within the industry. Um, I like my channel right from the first second I set it up. It was about industry commentary. It was about talking about what's happening in the industry and talking about where things are from, from the point of view of somebody who's looking at it from the outside in. If you have to be very careful constantly about what you are saying and what you're not saying and what you can say and what you can't say, that's quite a problem for free speech within this industry, which is why I've been making— some people have said to me, well, hang on a minute, you're not American. How can you make this a free speech issue? And the answer to that is, you dumb fucking idiot. Free speech isn't just a thing that Americans are allowed to have.

[00:20:23.830]
Yes, you've, you've made it the First Amendment, And it's probably the one most important thing to you guys, free speech, rightfully so.

[00:20:31.800]
Free speech will go—

[00:20:32.610]
In any country is allowed to speak freely and free speech is so important. And that's why—

[00:20:41.490]
People get confused. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of consequence.

[00:20:46.560]
True.

[00:20:46.890]
But in this case, I mean, as much as we can't say—

[00:20:50.380]
Consequence is not water on Craig.

[00:20:52.660]
Yeah, the consequence doesn't match what the action was. The action was, I'm going to make a video with my opinions and then the fucking consequences. Okay, I'm going to sue you so you don't fucking ever have the ability to talk again, which is absolutely asinine, especially in this industry where it's just, dude, just the way this works is that you make another video and then you share your opinion and then Craig makes another video. And then when you guys are both old and grey and, you know, all the fucking Botox has like fucking worn off. Then you make another video and then that's it. That's the end of it. There's no need to fucking—

[00:21:27.120]
you both lay your case to the magic industry and the wisdom. Like, literally, it's basically crowd— well, unless you're an active user of the Magic Cafe, but it's the wisdom of crowds. You let the fucking community take all the facts into consideration as long as someone hasn't lied, in which case they can get called out. And the community will let you know by either continuing to support you and your career or letting you fall to the wayside. I've been through that trial by fire like 2 to 3 times already, you know what I mean? And, and if I—

[00:21:59.950]
if it—

[00:22:00.520]
luckily I came out on the right side of it every time. If it come— if I'd come out on the wrong side of it, I would have taken it on the chin. I would have been like, ah, well, that, that's, that's it.

[00:22:09.290]
You're coming back to third coming of Lloyd Barnes.

[00:22:13.600]
But I think the biggest thing— one of the big things about this, right, this all started because of a ring flight by an amazing ring flight called Air Flight by, by Mark Bennett came out, and Yeagle was trying to take it off the shelves because it bore, uh, or attempted to say that it— there was some similarities to— I, I can't say his ring flight called Rinky Dinky because it's categorically Steve Sheraton's, with a minor adjustment made to it. But he tried to sue or threaten Mark. I guess he almost succeeded because he did temporarily have it taken off some shelves.

[00:22:49.800]
Yeah.

[00:22:50.200]
And so this all started by Yigal taking someone else's idea, making the tiniest changes to it, but not his, and then trying to stop other people putting out versions that were actually very, very different in where they actually had the permission from the original Creator, and Dave Bonsall as well for Ring Flight Revolution. As a creator, that if that, if this had gone a very different way and somehow logic and justice had not won out, that changes the landscape for creativity in Magic, period. That changes the landscape of Magic. That means that I could take any preexisting trick, for example, right? I could take any preexisting trick That's not mine. Fucking change— if it's a playing card gimmick, change the colour to a red— to a blue back from a red back. Put the hole slightly more to the side. Call it my own, and then try and stop everyone else from fucking doing it. Threaten them, threaten the companies they work with from making any effect that looks anything kind of similar in any way, shape, or form. If you squint your eyes from a distance and tilt your head, and you go, oh yeah, but maybe you could, because there is like this.

[00:24:06.060]
I mean, that gimmick's completely whatever, you know what I mean? Like, that, it does genuinely change the landscape of magic for all creators if someone was allowed to actually get away with something so fucking bonkers. Um, so that, that, that alone was, was crazy. So you stood up for every creator in that aspect. Then all the other things that went on behind the scenes, not what you said from firsthand firsthand accounts from people saying, yeah, I had an experience with this person. I was silently bullied behind the scenes, or I was taken to court. I literally couldn't afford to fight the case. I actually had to say blah, blah, blah. So that means that you stood up for people who were being treated badly behind the scenes. And normally with those people, and they categorically didn't have a platform to talk about it, you shone a light. Now, meaning that people might think twice in future before doing some shady shit behind the scenes. And if they— or if they were going to do it and hope they wouldn't get found out, now they might think twice. They go, ah, fuck, well, someone like Craig or any other YouTuber might actually just full-on expose me for doing this shit.

[00:25:12.930]
It's another precedent set. And then the freedom just to talk about in general any happenings in the magic industry, like any sort of potential, like, crediting disputes, any dramas, any any things you've heard behind the scenes, as long as you've got some evidence to back it up, or say, I have no evidence, this is hearsay, and this is my opinion on if, if, if this took place, which is absolutely fine to say from a journalistic point of view. Uh, if, if, if the case, if this case loses, right, then I mean, look at all the Magic community in terms of the content creators, me, Pig Cake, Kavan Booth, Sean Devine, any one of them that talk about anything other than just a trick, like which all content creators do in magic pretty much, right? Bar like one or two. But we all speak about the art form and the industry as a whole. That, if you couldn't just talk about a topic that was going on between other creators within industry freely without the fear of of, uh, fucking losing your home through being sued, then what's the point? Then none of us can safely do it.

[00:26:26.950]
So that's 3 major precedents you're setting there, uh, and I think, uh, I, I, it changes the landscape of Magic if you win the case, and it allows, uh, the, the way that which the, the, the content creation community can go forward.

[00:26:42.020]
I, I don't know which way this is going to go, but what I will tell you is, like I said, this last year has been hell. Me and Sarah have been arguing quite a lot about it, and it's not been nice. Um, but what I will tell you is, um, if I could turn back time and change anything, I would do exactly the same fucking thing. I would not change a goddamn thing because, one, I set out what I achieved to set out. Mark Bennett came to me in bits, not knowing what to do about a situation, and his product was effectively pulled off the market from, from Murphy's. Murphy's pulled it off.

[00:27:20.030]
Mouth.

[00:27:20.930]
And as a result of me making that video, Austin Murphy said, well, you know what, we're going to put it back on the shelves and we'll deal with the consequences. And that was a win. That's what I set out to achieve. And you know what, I, I would do the same thing again because Mark Bennett's a friend, and I offered to help him. I wanted to help him. I knew what I was getting into. I'm not an idiot. I know what masika is. I knew he had a, he had a reputation for being litigious. The irony is I called him a litigious bully and he proved that he's not by suing me. Go figure. But, you know, I, I wouldn't change a goddamn thing. I would do absolutely everything exactly the same way because, one, it was the right thing to do at the time, and two, I think me going through this, however stressful it's been, however, um, difficult it's been, however long it's going to continue to go on, I think it's really important for the industry, like you say, that because, because, you know, there's 3 ways of dealing with something when you have a situation like this.

[00:28:24.390]
You either, like, like, uh, like, like you guys said, you either argue back and forth on YouTube and eventually you're done with the arguments, you know, that's, that's one way of dealing with it. The other way of dealing with it is to create a sock puppet account and just, you know, pretend that everyone's saying how amazing you are. Hi Michael, how are you? And the third way of dealing with it is, um, is, is, is suing the person. And I don't think that's the right way to deal with it at all.

[00:28:52.230]
No, it's the bitch way of doing it. Yeah. Unless it's a strategy to try and financially gain something.

[00:28:58.660]
Yeah.

[00:29:00.260]
That, that's what he's done.

[00:29:01.000]
So this, uh, this podcast is sponsored by Ties.

[00:29:06.780]
Ties.

[00:29:07.280]
The best way that you could make anything levitate and float, carry it on you. EDC, wrap it around your wrist. Ties, the levitation system. Okay. Just wanted to mention that.

[00:29:21.160]
Oh, fuck me. I cannot wait either way, whatever outcome happens with the trial, I cannot wait for the day to close the chapter on it. And if it goes south, and the bad guys win, and social commentary really can't be, uh, you know, pushed, you know, safely done anymore in YouTube, it'll be a fucking dark day. Maybe some people might applaud that and say, look, we should— we shouldn't really be— I know a lot of people do not like talking about, um, disputes in Magic. I think it's important. I think it's important that people know when someone's done some shady shit because, like, For example, Ted Karmi— so I— so many people didn't know that Ted Karmiłowicz was an absolute massive raving nonce. They did not know he spent 5 years in prison for being a paedophile. Like, that only recently came to light.

[00:30:14.280]
Yeah.

[00:30:15.170]
And, and if we couldn't talk about things like that for fear of retribution, then people would blindly be supporting his work without knowing that they supported a paedophile. Do you know what I mean? And I think like, yeah, it's magic, right? And it's pretty dark to talk about shit like that. But also I would be, I would, if I had bought those new Ted Kármán books or any of his work in the past and I was happily out there performing it, maybe I did like a fucking form of a book test at a fucking university or a teenage, it's like a comprehensive school we call it in the UK for like, that's like, you know, teenagers. Maybe I performed a book test teenagers not knowing that the fucking creator of it was an absolute massive fucking nappy, diaper-sniffing nonce, then, you know what I mean? Like that. It's like, I don't—

[00:31:03.770]
I'm so happy you never shine a light on certain stuff. I'm so happy you never performed Hot Spot then.

[00:31:11.560]
What's Hot Spot?

[00:31:14.050]
Dude, it's, it's the trick that, uh—

[00:31:16.950]
Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.

[00:31:21.410]
It's a really fucking good trick. It's a penetration of a lighter through a coin. I definitely think this is the shit that needs to be fourth floor certified.

[00:31:31.740]
It's the only trick I've ever put out in the magic industry, Lloyd. It's the only trick I've ever put out, dude.

[00:31:37.500]
Come on. Exactly what it is.

[00:31:38.620]
I know. Shut up. You don't shut up.

[00:31:40.700]
All right.

[00:31:40.900]
You're not going to make it up.

[00:31:41.740]
I messaged you to tell you this was fucking dope, but I couldn't believe it. It kind of like went under the radar a little bit because I think it was a fucking huge win.

[00:31:49.620]
Thank you. Thank you, dude.

[00:31:51.060]
And I remember reviewing it at the time and saying it's very Stanky-esque. And it's got kind of that Sanky feel to it, which I mean, you know, I'm talking Sanky circa '80s to 2000, not Sanky now where he'll literally just sell his own grandmother to, you know, put out a new trick that is a popsicle stick.

[00:32:09.970]
I argue Sanky's in his best era right now. He's so fucking ready.

[00:32:13.400]
He is fucking jacked, dude. He's there like fucking tatted up.

[00:32:17.020]
Yeah, but the problem is, the problem is the Jerks put a video up of him talking and likened him to Mr. Magoo, and now I can't unsee it.

[00:32:25.210]
I don't know what Mr. Magoo is.

[00:32:27.760]
Mr. Magoo, didn't, uh, fucking, uh, Nielsen, what's his name, uh, the one from, uh, fucking Police Academy— not Police Academy, this is going nowhere. That live podcast that we're gonna do in fucking August is gonna be absolutely crazy, which is more reason why you should get tickets to the Magic Con. The Magic Con taking place in the ugly Rugly, Rudge, Rudge Rose, right? The Rudge. Oh, that's crazy.

[00:33:00.320]
Okay.

[00:33:00.560]
Yeah.

[00:33:03.800]
Yeah. You can't unsee it.

[00:33:05.580]
Yeah.

[00:33:06.310]
It's like a Jack Mr. Magoo.

[00:33:10.080]
Sankey is king. Let's just, let's just say it. Let's just leave that there.

[00:33:13.860]
I've always, I got in trouble with Jay once because I was, uh, I, I, I stopped doing it. But for a long while I had on my reviews how creative a trick is, how, like, I had a scale to decide how much effort has been put into a trick, you know, for if it's like a popsicle stick on a pole, you know, it's one end, and I called it the Canadian creator Sanky Sanders, uh,, like, scale. Yeah. And it was like, if, if it was like super creative and it was just completely different to anything else out there and it was just super commercial, it was, it was towards Sanders. And as it got more like shit, it went towards Jay. And I diss him even though I think he's— I think, I think Jay's amazing. I think Jay's absolutely incredible. I think some of the top tricks ever made in magic were made by Jay Sanchi. I think that these The full view switch. Incredible. Um, paperclip in a flash. Well, that's the full view switch. You know, he called it the full view switch. Paperclip is the name of the trick. The name of the slight is the full view.

[00:34:23.520]
Oh, was great.

[00:34:24.910]
Yep. Fucking peach. Um, the flat fire coin, the flash, flash, flash thing where in a flash, in a flash. Absolutely incredible. Fucking snowstorm. Absolutely amazing. Stove my home. Leaving Home. Brilliant stuff. Oh, hey, the, the, the, the inspiration for Keymaster. Holy, holy moly.

[00:34:47.010]
Holy moly.

[00:34:47.790]
Holy moly. And that key trick he did where it was like a transposition between a key and a coin, and he has like all that. He's done some amazing stuff. I love Jay. I think he's brilliant.

[00:34:59.510]
Messiah Ballet. Was that Jay's as well?

[00:35:01.520]
Yeah, I do. However, he was also apparently responsible for, um, Madison's thing, the, the torn corner, uh, oh, under zero or whatever. Yeah, a lot of people say that it wasn't Madison's, it was Sanky's, according to a lot of people.

[00:35:18.490]
I remember that piece.

[00:35:19.680]
I, I, I always hear, hear like the deeper, or the first finding of it was an Al Baker thing from like fucking shit, but whatever.

[00:35:26.950]
Anyway, the point is, I think in the last 5 years Name me a trick that's come out by Sanky in the last 5 years that you would say is up towards that level of tricks that we've just talked about.

[00:35:40.470]
Well, I see Sanky puts up good compendiums of tricks now, doesn't he?

[00:35:43.420]
So, oh, he puts out new tricks all the time, every couple of weeks. The only thing is he doesn't distribute them through Murphy's, so you get them through his own website and through his own mailing list.

[00:35:54.730]
Name me a trick.

[00:35:56.600]
Go on, name me a trick in the last 5 or 10 years that's up there.

[00:35:59.980]
The problem is I don't really, like, you guys tell me the new releases, so I don't know anything about from anyone very often. Yeah, but the thing is, Psyche's one of those creators, I think he's like a machine gun creator. So he goes, brrr, he just dishes out tons, it comes, you cannot stop creating. And like, and like sometimes I create in that respect and where I'll just sit down for a day and I'll come up with like 30, 40 tricks. And I have no idea which one's good, if any. But in amongst that, there might be one little gem, but I can't tell the wheat from the chaff, chaff, whatever. I think he might clearly, like, is one of those people who can just cut nonstop creativity and allows everyone to decide what's his best work, which is probably the better way to do it, right? So Because there is an argument to say like you shouldn't put everything out, but there's also an argument to say, who are you to decide what's good and what's bad, what fits and what's not?

[00:37:00.500]
No, no, I disagree. I pray to Jay Sanky every day. Jay Sanky has never put out anything that's wrong or bad or should be considered fucking like, oh, drawer material. So both of you guys are incorrect. And I really am considering leaving this podcast.

[00:37:16.040]
I'm with you.

[00:37:16.690]
I think— I'm sorry. I love Jay. I love Jay to bits. But I'm sorry, are we really fucking saying that he's not brought out anything that's shit?

[00:37:24.890]
Really?

[00:37:25.940]
Really?

[00:37:26.480]
He was free of sin. He was free of sin. Cast the first stone.

[00:37:31.550]
Listen. All right. J. Sanky took up all our sins in Magic. All right. And died for us. So you're going to tell me right now that J. Sanky has released bad stuff? I don't even want to hear it.

[00:37:44.390]
Coming from Craig. Coming from Craig and me. I've put out some absolute dogshit. I'll admit it. Craig will admit it, that he's put out dog shit. It'll take him a while to come to terms with it, but he'll admit it finally.

[00:37:56.050]
I don't have a cross. I have a little visage of Mr. Magoo in honour of Jay Sanky on my— around my neck. So that's how much I care about Jay. That was a bomb. I bombed.

[00:38:07.490]
I say I'm against it.

[00:38:10.330]
Oh man. You know, today I feel like you've ever released Poolboy Records.

[00:38:16.550]
It's total shit.

[00:38:18.410]
Right.

[00:38:19.600]
Which one?

[00:38:20.990]
Exactly. I rest my case. I rest my case. Fuck.

[00:38:26.120]
What was that?

[00:38:27.410]
That you released? I didn't even know that one.

[00:38:29.350]
Yeah, it came out years ago. Defend to me UFOs then.

[00:38:37.700]
They're real, I believe. No. I've got a big fucking poster that says, I want to believe.

[00:38:44.990]
Right there.

[00:38:45.790]
I believe in aliens.

[00:38:47.960]
Is, uh, UFOs like, uh, like a, uh, fucking free fly or some shit? What is it?

[00:38:53.900]
UFOs. Let me read the ad copy for you. So cool.

[00:38:56.490]
No, no, no. Just, just, just tell me what the trick is. Well, show me what the trick is. Show me. I'll find it. I'll find it.

[00:39:02.750]
Here, I'm sending you a link. I'm sending you a link. You can describe the motherfucker yourself. Here you go. It's in the chat. There you go. UFOs. Boom.

[00:39:10.480]
It must be so nice to be you guys right now in your little studios and inside your house. If I touch anything on my computer right now, everything's jumping off the balcony. Like, everything's just falling off because I— you guys are privileged in ways that you don't even realise. My goodness.

[00:39:27.850]
Just because you've got another man sleeping in your warmth.

[00:39:32.180]
Just get— yeah, my warmth. And then, uh, I've been, uh, kicked out The dogs are getting better treatment than me. Uh, let me— where you put this in the chat.

[00:39:42.130]
Okay.

[00:39:42.270]
This is like a— this— these are cool as fuck.

[00:39:46.630]
UFOs. Thank you.

[00:39:49.840]
So they're giant bottle caps.

[00:39:52.070]
Not giant bottle caps. They're pretty much the same size as a normal bottle cap.

[00:39:56.250]
They are. That bottle cap is bigger than my fucking— is bigger than the circumference of my cup. They're huge.

[00:40:03.430]
They're not that big. They're a little bit bigger, but they effectively, he's made big bottle caps and sold them for $25 saying that they're the best thing to do coin magic with. I, I, seriously, honestly, don't wind me up. If I went to Murphy's with that trick and I'm like, yeah, I've got these super big reflective bottle caps and I want to do a trick with them and I want to like, you know, like teach people. Okay. Do Matrix with them.

[00:40:30.570]
Let me make my argument. That's like, wait, let me argue this, right? In defence of Jay. Yeah.

[00:40:36.310]
Mm-hmm.

[00:40:37.160]
I think what he's done is he's got this giant bottle cap idea, right?

[00:40:41.110]
Yes.

[00:40:41.360]
And then in the, in the, in the trailer, he's come up with a bunch of cool looking visuals, right? Which, which standalone don't make sense because you're like, who the fuck carries a giant bottle cap? However, however, Have you ever made a jumbo coin appear?

[00:40:56.390]
Yes.

[00:40:57.070]
Right. Imagine you were out at a bar and you get a bottle cap. Oh, cool. Check this out. You do some vanishes and reproductions with it and you end by turning it into a giant bottle cap. That would be fucking awesome.

[00:41:13.370]
Yes.

[00:41:13.390]
That would be fucking awesome. It would be exactly the same.

[00:41:16.370]
They don't match. Bottle caps have fucking, like, brands on them. You don't just have—

[00:41:21.860]
Sometimes they do. If you had a replica silver bottle cap with no brand, right? So you pretend, and you pretend, oh, I've just— I just— this is my bottle, whatever. You don't even bring any attention to it, right? Of, oh, cool. I want to see some magic with this bottle cap. It vanishes, load of the shoulder. Yeah, well, and then finally you end by making it grow big. A giant coin is a dumb prop in one sense because they're not— everyone knows it's not a real thing. It's just a fucking prop. You can't argue that this is not exactly in the same realm, right? You just have a replica of small bottle cap, you do some vanishes with it and you make the giant one appear. It's cool.

[00:41:56.950]
Two questions. One, do you think this is up to the same, the UFOs thing? I think it's up to the same level as all of his other stuff that we talked about earlier from years gone by. 'Cause my argument was his stuff these days is nowhere near as good. And secondly, if he, if not Jay, if an unknown creator had come to you at Murphy's and pitched this product, would you have said yes?

[00:42:19.550]
Potentially, I'll tell you why. The amount of tricks that have come out that I've said, I don't think this is good, but it's not my decision. And they've gone on to be bestsellers. I can't count on two hands. And I'll tell you the reason. We have lizard brains. The only people that can decide whether a piece of magic is astonishing or not is the audience. That's it. We can't. That's why That's why I say the only— most magic reviewers are not magic reviewers, period. Because the only way you can review a magic product is if you've performed it and you get the feedback of the audience. So if he goes out and he crushes it with these bottle caps that he's using—

[00:43:01.810]
Well, you wouldn't know because he never does live performances on his videos. He normally—

[00:43:05.090]
Nor do I.

[00:43:05.570]
—is in the kitchen in front of a laptop. No, but—

[00:43:07.590]
Doesn't matter.

[00:43:08.200]
To the effort of having live performances, you will have somebody perform it for you. You know how important live performances are, so you'll go and get somebody to perform it for you. It might not necessarily be you, but you get somebody to perform it for you. What was that?

[00:43:22.810]
What was the trick that you thought was the worst trick ever? Was it that fucking dove? That animatronic dove? Yeah. And you said it was the worst trick ever. Then some guy goes out on Britain's Got Talent and gets a fucking standing ovation from 4 judges. The thing sells out instantly. The one trick which you said, which you fucking made, you made a video And that video was saying it was, it was 10 times worse than this trick by Jay Sanky. And that gets a fucking standing ovation. So I always say, a big part of my lecture, I say, is about making a point that, uh, it's not about us judging, uh, magic. It's about, it's about other people judging magic. You may not like what he's presenting there with those bottle caps, but I guarantee someone has bought that and is getting the best reactions ever and are going, "This is a fucking sleeper hit." I thought that Lucky Ladybug by Duscalia, Galia, I thought that trick wasn't very, it wasn't my style whatsoever. Fred kept going on about it, talking about how he performs it a lot. I bought it off Fred's recommendation, performed it to my kid Thomas.

[00:44:29.270]
He fucking loves it. He thinks it's the best trick I've shown him by a mile. Because it relates to something he can comprehend versus like the shitty coin slides I would show him and the card changes and stuff. Again, a trick that I didn't think it was trash. It just didn't suit me. I didn't, I didn't, it didn't fit my style, so it wasn't of interest. But again, in the same vein as you saying that this is, you know, not good or not, there's somebody out there crushing with this going, ha, anyone that doesn't buy this, just let me pick up the fucking remaining units because you're a fool.

[00:45:01.000]
Pig Cake, please tell me. Little Robert De Niro face. You are not okay with a bunch, is it, a bunch of bottle caps being sold for $30.

[00:45:11.500]
It's also the ideas that come with it as well, you dick. You know that yourself. I know that.

[00:45:17.860]
I know that. I get that. And it was all the same ideas that was on Revolutionary Coin Magic. But you know, by the by.

[00:45:25.230]
If Jesus Christ— what? Came down and sold water to wine for $25, would you be talking this much about, oh, look, the nuance and minutia of what the, the device looks like that's turning the water? No, right? So why are we here on this podcast in this beautiful, glorious day? Thank you, Jay Sanky, talking such nonsense. About these beautiful lightweight feather metal discs that you could use to do anything you want. Any trick that you do, all right, with these gimmick coins that you've put out, Craig, and all these other wonder— you could do with these featherweight light discs. So I'm not going to sit here, okay, and hear disrespect over UFOs because it's like, again, disrespecting our Lord and Saviour. So I'm just upset. I don't know. I don't even know if I might even do this thing anymore. My goodness, dude. All this Jay Sanky talk is really just—

[00:46:26.760]
we lost our fucking minds here. Are we? Are we? Are we?

[00:46:30.440]
I will say as well, I don't think they look like bottle caps. I think they look more like little cake tins.

[00:46:37.270]
Please tell me this is a bit. Please tell me this is a fucking bit.

[00:46:42.160]
They palmed themselves. So you don't even need to learn.

[00:46:45.050]
It's so easy to palm, dude.

[00:46:47.670]
They're highly visual. You could do it on stage. I could imagine David Copperfield doing that. So are you David Copperfield, Craig?

[00:46:55.790]
Fuck you. No, because I don't mess with kids. No.

[00:46:58.590]
Oh, okay. That's right, dude.

[00:46:59.630]
Imagine how cool it would be to literally imagine you showed a bottle cap. Imagine this for a cool effect. And I'm telling you, as soon as I say this, you'll probably be like, actually, I would do the shit out of that. You show a regular size bottle with a cap on it. You come up, you could see off, but as it drops out, it grows larger as it falls off into their hand. That's a cool trick. I would like, I would genuinely do that. I'd be like, hold your hand out, watch this. And as it falls, it fucking grows in size. You're like, what the fuck? That's a cool piece of magic. Or even if you're gonna do a cap and bottle, so you do cap and bottle and you show it's in there, you take it out, you say, the strange thing is this. And like maybe you switch it off to the side and say, the same strange thing is this. The cap could fit inside the bottle, right? Or the cap came, went into the bottle magically, but how the fuck does it fit back in? And then it's huge. You're like, what the fuck?

[00:47:44.260]
I think that's in that project already. So I don't know. There's so much room to play with.

[00:47:47.020]
He doesn't even refer to them as bottle caps. He refers to them as magical UFO discs. Doesn't matter.

[00:47:52.160]
I would call them bottle caps. Yeah. Or if you had a bottle full of water, right? So you have a bottle full of water, you take your bottle cap, take it off and you show it small. As you come behind the bottle, you show that it looks like it's magnetised 'cause of the refraction of light. And then when you come back out, it's actually grown. You're like, whoa, that's a fucking cool trick. That is legitimately a cool trick.

[00:48:12.360]
And also this point of not doing live performances. Have you seen the documentary film The Passion? Are you not familiar with this movie? Okay. The Pa— The Passion of the Jesus by Mel Gibson. Uh, if you haven't seen that documentary movie, all right, then it's the same reason why Jay Sankey can't do live performances because you saw how they treated him down the streets. Right. That would be the same thing if Jay Sanky went to his local residency at the, you know, show that he does and they would just fucking, fucking kill him again. They would kill him again for our sins. So it's unbelievable that you're giving so much and this lack of credibility on our— God, a small bottle cap like that.

[00:48:53.040]
All right. Okay. This is the bottle cap. Knock, knock. And there's all the water here. And as you come behind, you're like, okay, so you can see the bottle cap is this. It looks like it's growing bigger because of the light. And then you bring it out and it's grown and it's like, like that would be a cool fucking trip, man.

[00:49:08.760]
Millions of views on Instagram Reels.

[00:49:11.920]
Yeah, legitimately. Yeah.

[00:49:14.920]
Millions. Millions. Billions. I would say more views than there are people on Earth.

[00:49:19.580]
Like cockball torture by Kraygon himself.

[00:49:23.640]
Well, I mean, fuck, some of us like that sort of stuff.

[00:49:26.900]
I do. He's amazing.

[00:49:29.360]
You're saying that like there's a but about Kelly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:32.910]
The stuff that he's brought out in the last 5 years is not as good as the stuff he used to bring out. It's just not. It's just not.

[00:49:41.080]
All products, amazing details. Let me see what he's come out with recently here. Chainlink, unbelievable. Extremely ambitious. Unbelievable. J. Sanky's Airborne. My goodness. I don't even have enough things to say about myself that I could say about fucking J. Sanky's Airborne. Fucking. Oh, there's no list here. Okay, sorry. These are old products. Let me see if I could find new release. Oh, I can't sort on his website. Okay. Yeah, I can't sort. Oh, there's levels. Okay.

[00:50:09.720]
Look at him just fucking being a— struggling to be a millennial.

[00:50:15.120]
I tried to segue into getting people to shill for the MagiCon, thinking that you guys wanted some more shilling.

[00:50:22.420]
Of it because of the lack of shilling that's been, uh, oh, where the shilling is, um, uh, the shilling is going way up. I, are we off the Jay Sanky thing? Has the bit finished?

[00:50:38.590]
Yeah, I think, I think we've definitively— thank God you weren't arguing that case in court, Craig, because you would have lost bigly.

[00:50:47.040]
Bigly, dude, man. He would have cucked you so bad. You, you would have— he would have been releasing a Craig, like a Craig Petty product. Like, imagine the lawsuit and then the next product that he comes out with. You guys are standing next to each other. Anyways, here's fucking Air King by Craig Petty. Go ahead, Craig, explain it away. Like, you know, like you're his fucking bitch. That should be what happens with this case, by the way. That'd be hysterical. It's like you and your gown. It's like, anyways, go ahead, explain how to tie a tie. You know, like you have her going how to make, uh, ties in your fucking project. That'd be just, oh God.

[00:51:34.200]
I think the worst form of torture for him if he loses his case is that he just has to make a video saying sorry. Oh yeah. I don't think—

[00:51:43.670]
I mean, we don't know if he's gonna lose or he's gonna win or anything yet, but I don't think he loses. Yeah. I don't think he loses.

[00:51:50.150]
You know like how like when certain newspapers tell like lies about people and they have to write like half-page spreads apologising for what they've done? Yeah. I'd love if the judge was like, look, the ruling is you have to pay back all the fees, which will kill him. Like not physically, but like mentally torture him. And you have to publicly apologise. Oh, fuck. God, my dick would be so hard I could butter frozen fucking— frozen bread with it. Yeah, the opposite.

[00:52:19.130]
If Craig doesn't happen and pull through, then it becomes like, uh, so anyways, guys, here's, uh, all the top 10 tricks you could do with loops. Oh, fuck.

[00:52:27.710]
Yeah, dude, if Craig loses, I'm disowning him for a start. I don't want to know him, never knew him, right? I'm fucking getting an I support Jiggle Masika t-shirt made for sure. I only want to support the winning team. I'm a Glory supporter, right? Yeah, yeah, bandwagon. Yeah, fuck yeah, I'm all Spain all the way.

[00:52:50.970]
Yeah, thank God it's over. Thank God that's fucking done, done and dusted. The, uh, the World Cup, by the way, not the Higuain-Siqueira case.

[00:53:02.260]
Uh, gossip for you, a little bit of gossip. Uh, not massive gossip, but something worth mentioning. I'm going to be doing the Penguin holiday special again this year.

[00:53:10.820]
Uh, that's not gossip, you do that every year. Next.

[00:53:12.900]
No, okay, I was just trying to be cool. I'm excited.

[00:53:16.020]
It's time to say it to the industry. I don't know, I just—

[00:53:19.300]
I thought it's gonna be fun. Who are you— who is going to be your co-hosts?

[00:53:22.500]
Who are going to be— um, well, I, I don't know. I mean, year one we've done it, this will be the third year. Year one it was Eric Tate and Carissa Hendrix. Um, uh, then Michael Amar. Then last year it was, it was Eric Tate, Michael Amar, with cameos from Carissa because she was really busy with Lucy Darling. Lucy Darling is now blown up beyond all— no way. Like, Lucy Darling is like massive. She's massive.

[00:53:48.610]
Like, what was the catalyst to like for that next progression to happen? Was she like on like a TV show or something?

[00:53:53.580]
I think the biggest catalyst was not being known as just a magician. I think like a lot of the stuff that you see going out with Lucy Darling, it's her crowd work, it's her interacting with the audience. And I think that's the thing that's blown her out, uh, blown her up like really massive, is the fact that people will go to a Lucy Darling show that's not necessarily a magician, um, that, that's not like, you know, like a magic fan or whatever. They'll go and see her even though she does magic because it's more of a comedy show, you know, from their point of view. So with all the crowd work and everything. But Lucy's, uh, Carissa's definitely not going to be involved. I mean, I've not been told, but I, I, I know how busy she is. I see her touring schedule. I can't see in a million years how she's going to be involved. Um, I don't think they'll have Michael again this year. I think Michael, um, you know, he, he did his thing.

[00:54:45.750]
I can't believe they got Michael Lamar last year, man. That was fucking crazy.

[00:54:49.630]
It was so great. Really stressful performing with Michael Ammar there. It was so fucking stressful. It was so stressful. There I am performing on stage, and I know Michael Ammar's in the wings watching me.

[00:55:03.970]
I'm like, what the fuck am I doing, dude? I, I lectured at Wessex Magic Society— Wessex Magical Association last week before last, was it? And a big part of my lecture is this fucking like hands off any card, any number. And who sat in the room? Mark Paul. Oh, fuck me. The godfather. Burglass created/popularized it. Mark Paul literally wrote the rule book. He has the most famous performances of it. He's the one, he's the guy, he is The fucking guy for the ACAT sat in the room.

[00:55:46.960]
That's not why.

[00:55:49.070]
Well, how did it go then?

[00:55:52.270]
Pretty good, I think. I know your method. Did he come up to you afterwards and say anything? Because I know Mark quite well and I know your method. I think he really—

[00:56:00.290]
Also the nicest man on the planet. I said to him about 1,000 times, Mark, I'm absolutely shitting myself because you're here. I'm shitting myself because you're here because you're a fucking god to me. Um, uh, yeah, just came up afterwards. I don't want to like say online obviously, like, because it was conversation, but it was— I walked away like, no, did he just really fucking— did Mark Paul just say that about— what the fuck, right? What the fuck? Um, yeah, so like I called my wife all giddy after it.

[00:56:29.370]
So what's changed in your head? Um, what I mean by that is, for years I've known you and you didn't want to lecture for love nor money. It's not a thing that you wanted to do. You, you loved hanging out with magicians, but more in a sessioning kind of thing. I don't want to be the guy on stage. I want to be the guy rolling my sleeves up in the trenches with the boys, showing, you know, really cool shit like that. But all of a sudden, you know, you're, you're, you're, you know, over the last few months you've lectured at the YMC, you've lectured at the Magic Circle, you've lectured at The Session, you've lectured at Blackpool, you've lectured, uh, now you're doing like that during that week. You did like—

[00:57:10.280]
I mean, you're going to Mexico in October.

[00:57:12.200]
Yeah, like so many different things that you're doing. And, and I know there's stuff coming up in August that, uh, uh, that you can't talk about that's going to be pretty cool as well. Like, what, what's this mindset shift?

[00:57:25.180]
Um, well, massive Thanks to Andy Gladwin really that's— That's the big thing because look at Pig Cake he's like "that guy called me a fucking dweeb." But Pig Cake, is he wrong? Is he?

[00:57:41.030]
Yeah, he's fucking wrong dude. He's fucking— I'd like to see him do 25 pushups in a row and call me a dweeb. Okay. All right. I'd get it from Joshua Jaye. Joshua Jaye is a sex god.

[00:57:52.650]
Oh my God. We should make this happen!

[00:57:54.430]
No no no no no no no no pig cake. I'm sorry. No, I will not have anyone saying that Joshua Jay is more manly than Andy Gladwin. It's not— yeah, they pulled out their fucking cocks and had a lightsaber battle, Josh Jay would be fucking demolished in 6 seconds. There is more testosterone in the fucking left testicle of Andy Gladwin than there is in the whole of Joshua Jay. Josh Jay could go pump iron 24/7, 365 days. He could live in the fucking gym and just have fucking like protein intravenously injected into him, and all he's doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger until he's a big, huge, massive Hulk-looking fucking Kermic-speaking motherfucker. He could do that, and yet he would not come close to Gladders.

[00:58:43.140]
Gladders with his big farm boy cock. Andy Gladden can do one cock push-up. Do you know that? That's because Eddie, in fact, he lays down his hands behind his back, he fucking does a push-up with his dick. That's how much of a man Andy Glavin is. He— this guy is literally the James Bond of magic. Fucking really underground fucking James Bond because he shook down some Asians.

[00:59:05.840]
Okay, say, hey yo, you better take that thing down.

[00:59:08.970]
He went on a fucking underground raid to the— he fucking brought— he literally put that fucking houses face to face.

[00:59:15.910]
Beyond that, let's just talk about Andy Gladwin for a second. First of all, he grows up, he doesn't look— he's a little dweeby looking kid, you know. He's kind of like— he's, he's, he's looking like he's—

[00:59:26.290]
I always say that they're the fucking worst ones.

[00:59:28.190]
Yeah, he's the sort of kid that you look at and you go, hey, you're, you're most less likely to succeed. Who the fuck are you, right? You can relate, you know. Within a few months, as a few months, he's got himself into this industry. He's, he's setting up the— like, he's fucking appearing on TV shows all over the world where he meets Joshua Jay. Then he's setting up his own fucking magic convention. He's writing his own books even before the session, even before the, um, uh, Vanishing Inc. existed. He's writing books, he's publishing books, he's publishing material. He's going out there and doing it. Everything that man touches turns to gold. He was the guy that was dominating when he was performing regularly. Dominating shows. So taking on— I didn't want you to beat on fucking Google. You couldn't fucking touch him. He's a tech fucking genius. He's got fucking skills coming out of his ass. Then he sets— everything he does, he overachieves. I'm going to set up a magic convention. Well, I'm going to make it one of the best fucking magic conventions in the world. Then I'm going to buy a magic convention and make it fucking 1,000 times better than it ever has been.

[01:00:29.160]
Oh, and by the way, here's what else I'm going to do. I'm going to fucking dominate search results. I'm going to dominate as a performer. I'm going to— I'm going to make books fucking cool again. I'm going to start writing—

[01:00:38.600]
everything he does is so fire. Even his own warehouse, Ben, this little jock, little guy that was big—

[01:00:44.160]
that was big for a while. He brought out a book called Magic Atlas, and he's kind of struggling. He's like a performer, but whatever. And you know what? Andy, out of the goodness of his heart, you know, brings him under his wing and says, don't worry, I'll set up a company with you, I'm going to help you. And what does that company become? It becomes one of the biggest magic companies in the world. They're a producer, they're a manufacturer, they're a magic shop. Then he fucking buys the fucking magic shops in Disney. That's right. Just for fun. He found a bit of spare cash behind his fucking sofa and he's like, you know what I'll do? I'll buy all the magic shops in Disney. Then he fucking sets up a fucking retreat. He's like a visionary that like nobody else thought that like people would spend $15,000 to go away for 2 days and hang out, pay for Andy Gladwin and Josh's bromance holiday.

[01:01:30.770]
But they do and they continue to do so.

[01:01:33.100]
And here's the guy that really fucking loves magic. Because while his business partner is probably spending most of his free time when he's running a convention in the fucking gym and is in the trenches rolling his sleeves up, making shit happen, and going out and fucking being the fucking god that he is. And that's everything that he did before he fucking rolled his sleeves up. And you know, you know what, I've got a spare few days, what am I going to do? I'm going to fucking take out the entire fucking cartel, and I'm going to, by the way, have a fucking award-winning documentary made about it because I'm Andy Gladwin and Joshua Day can suck my dick.

[01:02:05.760]
So, Creator Hotspot, say something now, motherfucker.

[01:02:09.430]
Yeah, yeah, I will, I will, because he made one mistake in all of that, and that is sending a little message, all right, and going, thank you for the kind words, and also from that dweebly guy. He made the mistake.

[01:02:24.850]
He knows who you are.

[01:02:26.520]
He doesn't know.

[01:02:28.280]
He knows my it's not like David Penn, who didn't even fucking have a clue what a pig cake was. He knows your name, right?

[01:02:35.920]
He knew. Okay, we're not going to talk about David Penn because I'm ashamed, all right? I would love to be friends with David Penn. I would. I would just be there every day, like, listening to him, like, oh, tell me more, tell me more, David, about your wondrous storeys of performing Coin Vexed at the old folks home, all right? I'd be there just listening intently. Whereas Andy Gladwin Really? Really? Andy Glad calls me a dweeb, a dweebly guy.

[01:03:01.380]
It wasn't even dweeb. He is not only dweeb. Look, look, look, look, look, look. I'm not saying you're not a dweeb, but like you have a G-U-N, right? You have, you have it because you're in America. You're freely allowed to have a concealed carry or open carry. But if I was a dweeb, I'd put googly eyes on my gun.

[01:03:22.400]
All right, well, that's fun. That's funny because I didn't put googly eyes on my gun. Okay. They were put on my gun. Okay. Sorry. On my gun. Too late. I said it. I didn't do it. Okay. Somebody else did. All right. What do you think? I'm out here trying to show them that I'm cute right before I blast them into the afterlife. No, no. I'm out here trying to be a serious person and I have people around me bringing me down. All right. People like Andy Gladwin. Calling me a dweeb. All right. At least he could have called me by name and said, "Pick a guy, not that other fella." The other fella. Fucking— He didn't allude to you being a male.

[01:03:59.690]
He just said dweeb. Dweeb. Dweeb.

[01:04:02.660]
Oh, oh, the vinegar's boiling. Whoa, whoa.

[01:04:06.670]
Let's, let's, let's, let's be real. You get annoyed because he didn't know who you were, but you also spent like over half your YouTube career covering up your face. Yeah, that is true. So, hey, hey, you had a balaclava on for like 6 years.

[01:04:21.040]
Yeah, and you don't give me that point.

[01:04:22.660]
Real name. And you get annoyed if someone doesn't know who the fuck you are.

[01:04:26.010]
Come on, you know what, whatever, whatever. Oh, logic. Okay. Oh, look at Mr. Logic and Reason.

[01:04:30.590]
Okay, you say people don't know what you— who you are. How can he call you anything? Even on— even on here now on video, your name is Peter Turner.

[01:04:38.790]
Well, you know what, maybe if you were to understand that I'm on his Zoom because I don't want to pay for Zoom. Okay, so Mr.

[01:04:47.860]
Logic and Reason, right, guys, for a minute, can we go back to talking about me for a bit, please? Jesus, think of it already, 5 minutes of not talking about me and my penis is deflated to the size of Joshua J's on full mast. It's not fair.

[01:05:03.510]
I'm just shaking out of anger right now. Mine's folded in half down to 2 inches.

[01:05:07.490]
In all seriousness, we can fix this, Pig Cake. We can make sure that everyone knows how, uh, uh, who you you are. How is Operation Makeover for Pig Cake going, Lloyd? It's in full effect.

[01:05:16.890]
He does not— he's pushing against the tide, but Operation Pig Cake Rebrand, he— look, look at his little fucking, his little fucking curly tail going.

[01:05:24.990]
It's happening so good that I don't know what's happening. It's so good that I don't even know what's happening.

[01:05:30.090]
That's what Bill calls these victims.

[01:05:32.520]
Um, Smelled a little bit like Roofin' Off.

[01:05:43.600]
Jesus. Oh, fuck. Yeah, no, I mean, we need to talk about the rebrand. I mean, go back to a few points, the convention talk, which Pickle is talking about. So now that the majority of Craig's case is essentially like at the finish line, I am full on fucking on this now. This afternoon, me and Craig can book—

[01:06:01.520]
Reborn and rebirthed.

[01:06:03.960]
And actually, we should probably get Pickle on the call too this afternoon. So in a few hours' time, if you're free, unless you're busy with other things. We are basically putting together now the big crux of all the stuff needed for the convention, sorting out the lanyards, sorting out, um, uh, ticketers' names.

[01:06:21.530]
And I'm sorry to be honest, uh, to everybody, I'm sorry I've not been on it. I've been, um, you know, this year has been the, the most— I, I said to you, didn't I, the other day, Lloyd? I said, in all hindsight, organising a Magic convention while I was going through a federal lawsuit in an international country while trying to juggle everything else was probably not the wisest thing that I've ever done. Um, but you know what, I'm glad that we have because I think that this can grow and this can build. And one day, one day, one day, hopefully if we keep working hard enough, maybe we can reach the levels that Andy Gladwin has reached.

[01:06:55.060]
Oh, I do. Yeah, we're not gonna fucking— we're not gonna be able to do that, but it will be fun. And it's the, it's the best value for money convention next to Brent Braun's, which free, I think. Fuck, he's fucked us there. But, but, but, but we actually— well, I think it's probably pretty good value for money convention because there's so many lecturers and orbital lecturers and shows happening. Two gala shows, live podcasts, six full-blown lectures, and I think six— I think six orbital lecturers as well. For £25 a day, there's 2 days, or 50 quid for the 2 days. Like, fuck me, like, that's fucking hard to top. And dead central of the UK. Uh, it's very good anyway. Uh, but the— so we have a big meeting today to basically like dot the i's and cross a lot of the t's. And that's when really the big rollout for the convention, uh, will be happening is after today. So, um, you'll be pretty— anyone that has booked will be sick about hearing it, hearing about it up until the convention. If you haven't booked, you're not going to be able to escape the noise about the convention.

[01:07:57.910]
Up until the day before. I guarantee you, you're going to get FOMO if you're not there. I guarantee you, because now I am back. I am 100% revitalised and reinvigorated, and I feel like I am just fucking in a much better place than I have been for the last year. And I'm fucking on this shit. I am so fucking—

[01:08:19.540]
yeah, I love the business sense of, of doing this fucking thing for like 50 quid. Like, it's so funny, like getting people for a fucking convention, 2-day convention for fucking— you know who never do that?

[01:08:33.380]
Andy Gladwin.

[01:08:34.300]
All right. Because he charged $500 to fucking meet in Columbus, Ohio. Yeah.

[01:08:39.730]
Fuck. You know what? He subscribed to the theory of build them and they will come. And anybody who— yeah, you know what? Convention that he's at will come. Everyone come. Everyone comes.

[01:08:52.980]
That's gonna be the same for— that's, yeah, that should be the, the quote for this one, a MagicCon. Everyone comes.

[01:08:58.620]
By the way, I just asked ChatGPT just very quickly, because I know that you're serious about this, um, I just put a very simple prompt in: why do pop— why do people not know who Pig Cake is? And they've given you 5 reasons, just so you know how to not be, uh, uh, uh, you know, Andy Gladwin's bitch from now on. Uh, He's, he's primarily an online personality, just so you know. He hasn't built his name through lectures, convention appearance, books, or long catalogues of commercial releases the way that other— no. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's number one. Two, his audience is very niche, even within magic. Most hobbyists don't consume Magic YouTube regularly, and you're, you're, you're quite niche within the YouTube world. You know, some people find you a bit polarising. Number three, is known more for commentary than creating magic. The biggest names in magic become famous because they invent effects, publish influential books. That's fine. Television or headline shows. Pink Cake's known as a— known for opinion statements, and even though he does have the Pink Cake Magic Academy, it's locked behind a paywall and most people don't see the stuff that's in there.

[01:10:00.110]
Sorry, sorry, I gotta pay the bills.

[01:10:02.880]
Number 4, his style is polarising. His sarcastic, exaggerated humour appeals to some viewers but puts others off. That can create a loyal following without brand recognition across the community. And number 5, the magic world is fragmented. Someone can be hugely popular on YouTube, yet it's almost unknown to children's entertainers, corporate entertainers, stage illusionists, older magicians who don't follow online creators, casual hobbyists. It's also worth remembering that YouTube popularity doesn't translate into industry-wide recognition. A creator with tens of thousands of subscribers can be still relatively unknown. So it's less that people don't know who Pig Cake is and more that his online fame is concentrated with a very specific online segment of a very specific community.

[01:10:45.550]
They say you should find a niche within a niche, but I think you've niched within the niche within that niche. This is why the Pig Cake rebrand is in full effect, whether you fight it or not.

[01:10:55.030]
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and I'm the one-eyed man, baby. All right? I'm the one-eyed man's La Coma.

[01:11:02.740]
If you say one-eyed man, we all know you're talking about your cock. Yeah, it's all me, baby.

[01:11:14.240]
What the fuck does that even mean? That's interesting. You know what would have been phenomenal? If you looked it up on ChatGPT and they're like, please, uh, who the fuck is Pickcake? Who's that dweeb?

[01:11:28.380]
I did, I did give first sentence because I didn't want to insult you. Um, he thought for a minute it I don't know. I've never seen ChatGPT do this, but it like, it questioned itself. There's many reasons why pig cape brackets Nicola Capo. You know what?

[01:11:41.790]
That's a compliment. That's a compliment that I thought that I was Nicola Capo. That's fucking dope, dude. Fuck yeah, dude. Nick's hot, man. Nick's fucking a good looking dude.

[01:11:55.250]
So like ChatGPT took a stab at making an image of what I thought Pancake would look like. The ultimate male. Yeah.

[01:12:04.790]
If Nick DiCaprio really let himself go from a grooming point of view and decided to move to Miami and become trash, you know, I could see it.

[01:12:16.820]
It gave me a hairline. ChatGPT gave me a hairline. All right. It gave me a fucking— an actual job. All right. Fucking dude, kill it.

[01:12:26.750]
I believe, I think officially has seen a female vagina too.

[01:12:31.850]
He has seen officially. Yeah. Yeah, you are right. Yeah.

[01:12:35.220]
I've actually seen the show. He's married to Gally. She's a lovely girl. Do you know Gally? Yeah, he's married.

[01:12:42.130]
I know of her. Yeah. Yeah. Gally's great.

[01:12:44.960]
She's, she's like a very, very, very, very, very, very talented magician and also an incredible radiographer. Yeah, she's really good.

[01:12:53.250]
I fucking love Nick DiCaprio, man.

[01:12:55.560]
Yeah, I mean, him and his beautiful—

[01:12:56.770]
every— you know what I like about Nick DiCaprio is that every effect that I see him perform, you know, like, I don't know, it's hard to just— like, sometimes I— you feel— I feel very uncomfortable watching most magicians perform on camera. I also think, like, choice of effect is such an important thing to do. Every time I watch Nick perform, I'm super comfortable watching him. I enjoy watching performances, and he always has a a fucking great trick selection. Always chooses really good effects to perform. Um, he does Colossal Killer so fucking well, man.

[01:13:27.960]
Um, oh, he does. He's—

[01:13:29.490]
and, and he's the man that Pigcakes always wanted to be, which makes him even more attractive to me.

[01:13:35.350]
You know why? All right, I prefer someone like Nick over an Andy. Okay, I remember watching some video where Nick's getting interviewed, and I'm looking at the shirt that he's wearing And I'm like, that's merch. That's my merch. This guy's wearing and representing Pig Cake merch. What a lovely chap. What an absolute whopper of a man that he's out here repping, repping me. And not even, you know, not even just, just like casual, casually repping me. Would Andy, Andy Gladwin, I don't even think I have shirts.

[01:14:10.230]
That's our new mission. That's our new mission.

[01:14:13.360]
Andy Gladwin will wear a pig cake shirt. Yeah, to wear my pig satchel.

[01:14:18.090]
Andy Gladwin will be wearing a pig cake shirt.

[01:14:21.630]
My looney pork on pig cake to like lecture at a masterclass for Vanishing Inc. Or at least do something with Vanishing Inc. I mean, that's probably too big a thing.

[01:14:31.720]
Maybe, maybe, maybe just do the first comment they'll get is like, why is this racist on this? On Vanishing Inc.

[01:14:41.000]
Fucking first comment. Dude, did I tell you what Eric Tate told me? Uh, when I'm like, hey man, I really want to do a Penguin Live lecture. And he goes, hence the rebrand.

[01:14:54.770]
Hence the rebrand. Look, Kevin Spacey the shit.

[01:14:59.030]
Dude, his first words to me were, dude, I mean, I'm like, okay, all right. That tells me everything. Thank you, mate. Thank you.

[01:15:07.970]
The magic convention. Magic card.

[01:15:11.970]
Killed me. Yeah, this, uh, this one is, uh, I'm, I'm excited more for the live podcast. That's what I'm excited for.

[01:15:17.700]
To be fair, the last time I tried some wheels in motion yesterday, thanks to Rich Relish. Remember when we did the last one? The first one, definitely, where Rich was asking questions and they had some fun games for us planned. Yeah. To actually give us some structure. So Rich is doing that again and he's good.

[01:15:36.850]
And I think we should have a— I think we should have another competition involving a tattoo.

[01:15:40.630]
I can get it. That's what Rich said. I'm so down for that. Loser has to get a tattoo, but I want a tattoo anyway.

[01:15:46.770]
Oh, there you go.

[01:15:48.130]
I finished my sleeves. I haven't had a tattoo for a while.

[01:15:51.610]
Fucking unbelievable that you telling fucking Peter forever ago to convince Pickcake to get a tattoo, but blind, haha, and have it say like, I suck Lloyd Barnes' cock or some shit.

[01:16:04.170]
Oh, we nearly got you to get that as well.

[01:16:07.020]
Yeah, I would have never done that. I would have absolutely never let Peter give me a blind tattoo. This fucking same man that, again, almost murdered me in fucking Leeds, England, of all places. If you're going to kill me, kill me in fucking, you know, somewhere that matters. Florida. Or Magic. Googly eyes on the pistol. No, no, I was about to say where Magifest is held. All right. Yeah. Okay.

[01:16:29.450]
It doesn't matter what Andy Gladwin says about you because Frankly, at this point you're winning at life because not only have you got your own balcony that you can film a podcast on, not only have— no, it's not, it's Skill Friends. Yeah, 1,000 followers on YouTube, which is like double the amount that I've got. Not only have you released a trick with, with Alakazam, not only have you like released a like, uh, a, uh, you know, the Psychic Survival Kit with Pete Turner himself. Well, you haven't released— we're all waiting for it to come out, but I mean, yeah, not out yet.

[01:17:06.980]
Oh yeah, there's all of that.

[01:17:08.250]
But on top of that, you're now head of distribution for The Fourth Floor, aren't you? Like, you're, you're the man, you're the guy. US logistics specialist, son.

[01:17:18.120]
Dude, if you ordered in the US, all right, just know that your vehicle, between Lloyd Barnes and you receiving the wondrous product that is potentially you. By the way, you know what I realised? Speaking of just mentioning Peter real quick, you have Hyperamnesia on the 4th floor. And the other day, Peter was at a, doing a lecture down here and he fucking goes, oh yeah, you know, I've actually done a lot of things to train my head. Like one of the things is I've memorised my phone book on my phone and people are like, what are you talking about? And then he goes through this thing where he shows that he can memorise all these things. And then afterwards I'm like, I'm like, hey, you little fucker, what do you mean that you could memorise all these things? You, you piece of shit. This is a fucking trick. He goes, no, no, no, it's real, big guy. It's real. And then he does it. I pick somebody that I know, by the way, and their phone number didn't match. And then afterwards, like yesterday or 2 days ago, I was looking through your website and I see Hyperamnesia and I'm like, oh, oh, that's the same.

[01:18:17.460]
It's the, it's the, yeah.

[01:18:19.500]
So I just found that the reason why it's on the 4th floor, it's because it's immaculate. It's absolutely immaculate. It is the perfect illusion of you memorising your phone book. There are no notes, no notes. So because it's absolutely top tier, it's there. It really, yeah. I mean, I've got loads of videos on it on the Fourth Floor site. What was I going to say? Where were we going just before that?

[01:18:41.610]
Yeah, that I'm Andy Gladwell's not the logistics expert for Fourth Floor. All right. So I fricking, yeah. Where, what are you, what are you doing, dude? Fucking bro, be better.

[01:18:51.670]
So can either one of you motherfuckers at the fourth floor— I've got the CEO and the head of logistics here. Can anybody tell me when, because I'm getting this on my channel like literally 10 times a day. Can anyone tell me when fucking Sucker Punch Revolutions is coming out?

[01:19:05.550]
It's at least 2 weeks. I asked George at Murphy's yesterday. It's at least 2 weeks away because, uh, internally they are sorting out tutorial assets, like the tutorial videos that you shot. There's— they've edited them, but there are extra bits needed to be done, and then they want to do the rollout properly so people get time to, uh, to make a campaign about it, you know, so that everybody knows.

[01:19:31.220]
Um, uh, Craig, uh, so, uh, Sucker Punch— yeah, Sucker Punch is 2 weeks out, uh, and the reason for that is because there's some sort of internal, um, conflict when it comes to the tutorials. So they want to make sure that that before the rollout is all taken care of. So I just want to state that as the fulfilment logistics expert at Fourth Floor.

[01:19:58.530]
I appreciate that. Thank you. Your insight is valuable. Thank you. Thank you. You wait till you see some of the stuff that I'm going to talk about in your insight video.

[01:20:11.580]
Shit. So yeah, I, I, I, um, so I, I have my stock in the UK already. Do you? Okay. Yeah. Pew. Yeah. Well, I can't really get into it, but because I was part of my project and I did the trailer, um, they shipped me, I, well, I get basically, I got some units for free, like, like most people do where they do work. On the certain projects at Murphy. So the stock is ready and waiting in the UK. That's why if you buy it from Fourth Floor, then, uh, you'll get it. We ship as soon as launch day happens, uh, that second ticks over, they will be shipped immediately. So you're not going to get it faster than Fourth Floor.

[01:20:55.100]
That's good.

[01:20:56.080]
On this one, even including the United States, by the way, I'm not involved in every product. This one on Sucker Punch, it'll be the best choice.

[01:21:03.650]
If you order from Fourth Floor and you happen to be in the United States, your order will go out. I, I will personally deliver it to your residence, personally, uh, with my little feet like Achilles— not Achilles, who's the guy that runs fast? The Flash. The, the, the, the— like The Flash. I will personally deliver it, uh, to your domicile. Um, so only you buy— that's a fact. No, no, no. Anyone in continental US.

[01:21:29.650]
Do you remember actually talking about that? You should do that. Do you remember when Penguin used to have the shipping option hand delivered by a jar? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Remember that? That was back in the day. Yeah, I do. Like you, there were like free shipping, expedited shipping, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then one option that you could pick is hand delivered by a jar. And it was something really expensive, like $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000. But effectively, he would jump on a plane with your package and deliver it to you personally.

[01:21:59.750]
Nobody ever did that, right? Because they would have like—

[01:22:01.920]
I would love to know if somebody actually did do that. Yeah, I love that.

[01:22:06.330]
Back in the day, I learned the best thing to do.

[01:22:09.690]
Yeah, like, because you had the— what's the worst that can happen? That you get on a flight and you fucking hand deliver a fucking, uh, uh, holy moly to, uh, someone.

[01:22:18.910]
Someone paid me $5,000, I would deliver their package anywhere in world.

[01:22:23.450]
And imagine how gutted you'd be though if a jar jumped— you paid him $5,000, he jumps on the plane, knocks on the door, there's no one in, so he leaves it at the door.

[01:22:31.770]
Yeah. Oh God. Oh, oh yeah.

[01:22:34.630]
Fuck, fuck.

[01:22:37.110]
I miss when they used to include like a bag of like M&M's and Skittles in your order. And I put it every time I've ordered something from Penguin, which to be fair isn't a lot because, uh, you know, as a Magic influencer, people send me stuff stuff. Anyways, so they used to include M&Ms and Skittles and I put every time, hey, give me a bag of Skittles, bag of M&Ms. They've never done that. They haven't done that since like 2000 fucking 4. So I'm kind of upset.

[01:23:04.090]
Here's a, here's a question actually on that. A serious question. How do you think people pick their magic shop? Like, I know people that like, they will not buy anything unless it's gone through Penguin. Alakazam have like a really loyal fan base both in America and in, in Europe. Uh, like, is there, is there, is there like what— you just said I don't really order from Penguin very much, right? Well, Brett, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to work out why people gravitate to from one shop to another.

[01:23:35.690]
It's— I think there's a few reasons, right? I think it's ease of use. I think it's good experience. With them. You know, so like, how, like, is it simple? Did they get their package? And if something ever goes wrong, because things often go wrong with shipping, how easily was it resolved? Right? And then, and then good value for money. It's got to be great value for money these days in a competitive market. And also, do you believe in the brand ethos? Or do you believe in the— do you, do you like the company's way of doing business? I think those are like the 5 points, or some of the, at least off the top of the head, like those are the 5, some 5 really important points. And then often to do with SEO, right? Just you fucking put it into Google. And, and, and what's the first result that has the trick that you're looking for? But then, and also then, you know, to go deeper, like it's to do with like YouTube reviewers, right? If you, if someone watches a Craig Patty product review or Pancake product review, and you're talking about this trick, blah, blah, blah.

[01:24:31.060]
And it's the first time you ever hear of it. And someone says, yeah, if you want to pick up links down below, and you're not gonna go, you're not gonna go to any other link unless there's a specific reason to do so. Like, so say you, they click the link down below, they go, oh, fuck, this company's in the, in the UK, and I'm in the US, I'm gonna look for one closer to home. Unless the, unless there's a sign that says, you know, we ship UK and US both the same price, you go, oh, cool. Like you want to, it's about removing as many friction points as possible, making it experience seamless. And ultimately, like, who's going to give you the most value for money, not just in terms of like the price, but are you going to get a few extras? Like we do with The Fourth Floor, we do the Intel videos. So you don't just buy the product, you get the bonus stuff. But other companies like give free tricks away. They'll throw something extra in the package. They'll, you know, some tricks come and they'll give you a one-on-one live Zoom tutorial.

[01:25:23.980]
So who can offer you the best options to go with all that. And, and so I think those are like the, the main factors. And you, and I think for any business to succeed, you want to be ticking off like not just one of those, you want to be ticking off as many as possible.

[01:25:37.360]
That's good call. Yeah, you nailed it. That's exactly it. Do you think that there will be another big magic shop in our lifetime? So what I mean by that is I would say that the big ones at the moment are Alakazam. Um, I'm talking about global domination. So like in the UK, Monster Magic is pretty damn big, but I, I'm willing to bet very few people order from Monster in other parts of the world. So the biggest ones that I can think of globally are Vanishing Inc., Penguin Magic, and Alakazam, who have grown exponentially since COVID and have had their US base. I think those, those the three big ones, you know. Do you think there's ever gonna— and I know the Fourth Floor ships internationally, but I know that your plan is not to be a big global shop and instead you're very niche.

[01:26:27.770]
Well, those shops are not so much ala kazam, but they do have a massive catalogue comparatively to Fourth Floor. They, they, they, but those three shops are more akin to the global leader supermarkets of magic. I see it as, you know what I mean? They have a massive— you can get anything from them, which is phenomenal.

[01:26:50.320]
Walmart. It's like Amazon. Yeah, I know.

[01:26:52.560]
And I don't mean that in any demeaning way whatsoever, but like, that's how I— that's where I see those. That's when we talk about is there going to be another global competitor to go up against those? That's what I'm thinking in my head. What magic shop is going to come along or could come along that's going to host the same size of catalogues as they do and compete with them? I don't know, because I don't— I think it's very hard to do that if, in this day and age, because it's kind of like monopolies are— you look at supermarkets, the— it seems like the bigger ones are only getting bigger and the smaller mom-and-pop stores are fading away. Like, it's like chains for any, like you look at like Wetherspoon pubs, right? And the breweries that own pubs, they're absorbing all the little self-owned businesses and becoming monoliths or, you know, whatever it's called. I think the way magic is and the way the world is in e-commerce, it's gonna be very difficult for anyone to come in and become one of the major players in that supply chain. Just because of the way industry works at the minute.

[01:28:05.050]
If they did, if they did, they would have to do— I think they would have to do it via disruption. They would have to do it by flipping the industry on its head or not breaking, uh, like any legal rules, but like breaking some fucking rules. For example, I think the one way that a company could do it is to start, um, being a competitor to Murphy's wholesale. Right? I think one way to— so it's kind of like leapfrog the front, just the front, uh, to customer store and be like, right, okay, fuck it, let's go into wholesale. They'd obviously need some capital of about $5 to $10 million to start buying product in. And they advertise, hey, we offer better rates than Murphy's, we do better shipping, our backend systems are far more advanced, we've got a leaner crew, um, we'll, we'll— no matter what happens, we will beat We will always beat Murphy's on price for wholesale. And, and, and, you know, there's— everyone complains like there's a lot of flaws in Murphy's system. It's a very archaic system. So, you know, it's very hard to straighten out some of those kinks. A new company would have the ability to start fresh in 2026, automate a lot of those payment systems, get things done manually that are automated and vice versa.

[01:29:19.540]
Better deals, better offers. A much more leaner catalogue, right? So if they're gonna do wholesale, they only buy what's good and, you know, subjectively good. And then with that, they can also open up a storefront. Now you can got something that's gonna look more like a fucking powerhouse within Magic, which could be more dominant, I think. I think that's really gonna be like the only way. And then with that, that's when they can start breaking some rules in Magic and start saying, you know what? 'Everyone else is doing it in this way because they are beholden to the wholesaler. They are beholden to this, this, and this. We can just do things however the fuck we want because we are one entire ecosystem. We distribute, we sell, we purchase.' They do everything in one, which means that as long as they are, you know, and I think the other thing is that they would have to be, I, in so many, I mean, so many, in two of the major magic companies I've worked at, the, one of the, one of the things they always strive for was to not hire magicians. And that is such a fundamental flaw, such a fundamental flaw.

[01:30:29.720]
It seems like a shoot themselves. Yeah. Like, um, there's so many nuanced things within magic. Uh, there's too many like nuance. For example, one of the ways like a basic example, right? With Murphy's is that if a product comes up, if somebody releases a product, and then one of their purchasing team buys another product without knowing that it's the same as somebody else's, that creates credit dispute. The way Murphy's have historically handled it is that they say, we're going to put you guys in an email to settle your differences. And then you let us know the outcome. Right, which can sometimes work. I had it there was a bunch of gaffs from in the Mechanics Industry gaff deck that were directly taken from me. So I— and they put out the Mechanics gaff deck. I emailed Cathy before I worked there, and, and this didn't— not, uh, it's just the way— it's not her choice that their policy was, hey, I'm gonna put you guys in an email, let us know what happens at the end. I was saying, well, look, these are my fucking gaffs. Like, so she put us in an email, sent an email, never responded to me.

[01:31:29.560]
So I said, oh, look, the guy's blocked me, he hasn't responded, he's ignoring me. So well, there's nothing we could do. That's not how this works, right? Like, you guys have the decision. Those are things that need to be understood by magicians.

[01:31:41.770]
That's why— yeah, that's why the whole Michael Webber thing happened, because Michael Webber reached out to Murphy's about EDCs, and I— we were going back and forth by email and email and back and forth by email, and he got to the point where he said, you know, Craig, we— yeah, it was a very serious— it was threat, you know, it was a threat. We wouldn't like to see RED happen again, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's when I kind of said, okay, right, okay, well, this has gone beyond a fucking email now. Let's make a video. Um, uh, but the, the, you're right, the concept was let's email back and forth.

[01:32:16.840]
Yeah.

[01:32:17.640]
And I like, like, what would you, what I was gonna say, what would you say is a good solution to a, a problem like that? Like, what would be an ideal way of solving that?

[01:32:28.350]
You have an internal team of magicians who understand the history of magic. They understand the nuance, the extreme nuances of magic, and people who are impartial to both creators as best they can be. It's a small industry, and they ask for both parties to submit their documentation, and they make a decision on it. And it's going to be different outcomes for every single thing. But the answer is absolutely not to let the two creators— I don't think so— let the two creators fight it out and let them tell you what the outcome is. Or the one of them, the one who's potentially, uh, being accused of stealing, should not be the person who gets to decide the outcome. And if that person then blocks the other party, what the fuck? Like, this is just one tiny, like, like, wrinkle in, in an entire, um, crunched up piece of fucking paper. So I think, yeah, that's what was gonna happen. You'd have, I think, I, you know, I think that those are one of the, one of the options to, to become a global powerhouse in Magic. But also, does anyone want to be? Yeah, that's the question.

[01:33:37.230]
Nobody's stupid enough. Why would anybody be dumb enough to try to get involved in that when there's already a sort of an established, you know, I don't wanna say law of the land, but there's already established people that gone through the wringer of doing that, you'd essentially be setting yourself up to not make any profit for years and then hope to make a little bit of profit after fucking a crazy amount of time for nothing. Like when other ventures are probably more lucrative, it's, it's a— this is, this is exactly right.

[01:34:04.820]
So I talk about blue ocean territory a lot and that is like, especially when it comes to like, I talk about it often lately about Magic. Apps, right? So many magic apps are all arguing over the same ideas, the same tricks. They're all taking each other's ideas and it's just, they're just fighting for the scraps at the end of the barrel. And the people who come up with new ideas that haven't been done, they get blue ocean territory. They get the fucking lion's share. And it'd be the same if somebody wanted to start a magic shop now, I think, because yeah, like you said, Fizzle, they're swimming upstream. For the most part. I think, I think, I think if someone was to do that, they would be more motivated by money and profits than they would be by magic, because you can't focus on— unless you really care about like, oh, I don't, you know, I think the magic industry as a whole is quite, quite good in terms of the way it's operated. Like you've got some amazing stores out there like Penguin and Vanishing that do a lot of like, especially Vanishing, they do so much good for magic.

[01:35:07.550]
Magic, it would be hard to come in and say, we're going to do it better than that. Obviously they all have flaws, like, but that is, that is life in general. But yeah, so they'd have to be, I think they'd have to be more passionate about money than they would be about magic, which brings me to my point. There's not that much money in magic comparative to other industries. So if somebody is focused or driven by profits, this is not the industry to really get into if they want to just, if that's the thing they want to take home the most.

[01:35:42.300]
That makes sense.

[01:35:42.960]
It would absolutely just be a fucking, I don't know, some lotto winner that's just fucking, oh, you know what? I like magic. Let me see if I could do this. You know, it would have to be somebody that loves it for the art of it. And then even then, like there's no need to do all that work when there's other ways of, making comparable profit. Like, it just seems like you're— there's no need for it. There's already, like, I think, a decent amount. But, you know, where that does lead into people like you with the Fourth Floor is that there's like— I want to call them like the designer sort of aesthetic of— yeah, like the boutique shops that are not necessarily releasing shit at a competitive cost like other companies like Penguin and, you know, Vanishing Inc. are releasing essentially the same shit. There's like the boutique, the fucking, you know, the little All Saints, the little fucking Fred Perrys that are there releasing that while Walmart is selling shitty polos. Well, get the fucking good quality ones at these stores. And I think that obviously that's the sort of audience that you're trying to capture at the Fourth Forward.

[01:36:52.340]
You're only putting out quality stuff, you know, relatively objective, which sounds hysterical, but relatively objectively quality stuff. That's, you can't really argue with that. You were saying about Hyperamnesia, for example, it's not your product, but it's just such a perfect way of displaying perfection. Yeah. Yeah. So even that and the other stuff, it's kind of a good approach 'cause there's still a massive audience for that. There's still a need for that in any industry. And I think that's where it'll be. It'll be a lot of those little shops, but there's gonna be no powerhouse that's gonna come out. Alakazam is crazy because, you know, you've had a long established history with them, but they just came up like a fucking fireball post-COVID. And great for them 'cause they're just a, you know, it's a family-owned thing.

[01:37:40.690]
Minotti is a big—

[01:37:42.250]
Did he reinvigorate the brand, do you think?

[01:37:44.900]
Yeah, he really did. I, you know how close I am with Pete Nardi. Like, I speak to him an awful lot, and he's open. He's openly told me in the past, he's like, I'll be honest with you, Craig, I'd been coasting before COVID I had my, uh, like, I had my audience, I had my customer base, they would buy off me. I was very comfortable. I grew it to a particular point. I didn't see why I should grow it any bigger than it was. I was comfortable. And then Harry came in like a fucking wrecking ball, and he's like, you know what, we can do so much more. And you look at everything that they've done, and I think part of what has made them so successful is old school taking risks, old school entrepreneur taking risks. You know, they, they completely— it would not have been cheap cheap to set up an American base of operations. It would not have been cheap. They've got the warehouse, that thing, they've got to send stuff over there. And also, it's not— it, that, that I believe, I might be wrong, but I believe they've set it up as actually an American company, and I've had to go through all the legal paperwork to do with that as well.

[01:38:56.220]
Like, that's not a cheap thing. Then they set up an entire streaming platform, Unlimited, you know, which is— then they, they've brought more staff in than ever before. Like, the team continues to grow and grow and grow, and every time you look, you've got more staff. Well, you know, and anybody will tell you that runs a business, staffing is the biggest, most expensive cost, and it's the thing that's going to constantly be that recurring, really expensive, um, outgoing that you need to pay every single month. And, you know, he's getting more staff than ever before. Then he, he's bought so many of the businesses. He bought, um, Ace Magic Studios, he bought 1914, He bought Film Find Magic, and I just think everything that they've done is very entrepreneurial. It's very strategic. I think that they, they wanna be the biggest. I know that they wanna be the biggest and that everything that they're doing is kind of pushing them towards that way. Whether it happens, don't know whether they end up being as big as Penguin. I don't know, uh, whether they are as big as Vanishing Inc. or not. I don't know. But, you know, I mean, they've just, they've just had their own convention, which was a massive success, which Penguin have never done.

[01:40:07.420]
Penguin Live Expo. Well, they had the Expos, but I don't look at that as a convention. That was kind of like a touring, almost like it wasn't a big— it was, I suppose you could say it was a convention really, but I mean, yeah.

[01:40:19.050]
Hey, Alakazam's interesting because they, they, they're their own entity in a sense, you know, as well, because they are such a strong line of their own products and a historical line of products. And then taking ownership of new brands in-house, um, it creates like— it creates their own— like, for me, with Fourth Floor, it's very much, for the most part, blue ocean territory. Most of the things you get there, you can only get through me. And so that means there's no competition because right, for the most part. And that's the same with Alakazam. I know that they have opened up and they do take in wholesale, you know, a little bit now, but for the most part, they have so much ownership of that material that there's not any competition. Because if you want an Alakazam product, you get it from Alakazam. Yeah, you know what I mean? Which is great. So I don't know if they'll ever compete with Penguin, but I don't think, I don't think that they're in the same competition.

[01:41:17.270]
No, I agree.

[01:41:18.700]
And I think, yeah, it's like a different category.

[01:41:20.540]
Yeah, I agree. And what we're talking about here, I don't think the, the, the magic community really, or a lot of the greater magic community really understands the behind the scenes that we're talking about here right now in terms of all of this stuff. Like, I find this sort of thing fascinating. You know, one of the things I find most fascinating is the relationship between Penguin and Murphys insofar as Penguin is Murphy's biggest customer. They're the world's largest magic shop. They buy from Murphy's. They shift a shit tonne of Murphy's stock. They are, they are Murphy's biggest customer, but they're also Murphy's biggest competitor because there's no other wholesaler— because Penguin are a wholesaler and they release like one or two tricks every single week. There's nobody else that wholesales Magic to the level that, uh, that, that, that Penguin do, and they wholesale at much better rates than Murphy's. I believe it's 50%. Um, so they're their biggest competitor and they're the biggest customer. And, and I know that there's that whole, like, there's a competitive nature between them. You know, I remember when you worked at Murphy's and it was difficult to get you to leave a review, uh, to leave a, a quote for a Penguin product because there's that kind of, they are competitors with each other and I totally get that.

[01:42:40.430]
But I find that kind of relationship really interesting that they're, that you can be someone's biggest customer, but also at the same time their biggest competitor.

[01:42:48.280]
Hmm. Like a symbiotic relationship because I imagine that if, for example, Murphy's would lose Penguin as, you know, maybe they decide to say fuck it, which I don't think they can, but let's say hypothetically they decide to say fuck it one day and lose Penguin as, or Penguin decides to not go with Magic, with Murphy's Magic as their, the company they buy from, they'd be fucked. So both companies would be fucked. So it's like a mutual agreement not to kill each other. Actually, assured destruction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like what we have with like fucking Russia where it's like, no, don't fucking, no nuke. We're not going to fucking nuke. But if you do, if you nuke, then we're going to nuke. So it's like this sort of, they're living in And well, at least for them, it's more of like a symbiotic relationship where they depend on each other. But there's also every once in a while a little nudge like, hey dude, you know, we're putting this out and fuck you. So it's still entirely dependent. It reminds me of like an F1, to not make a wrestling reference, that you have, you know, two racers that are under the umbrella of a team.

[01:43:51.260]
And those racers are still competitive with each other, but they're still going for the greater good of the overall team, despite them being rivals with each other directly. So it's kind of like that, but the greater good being fucking Magic in this way. 'Cause if any one of those companies were to lose the other, they're fucked.

[01:44:13.220]
It's interesting. They're both profiting because of each other. Mm-hmm. They're both profiting because of each other. But yeah, I think, yeah. They definitely could mutually destroy each other too, which is funny, but it's, that is in a sense though, you know what I mean? Like fucking, um, like you look at so many companies out there that like Apple used to buy their chips from, uh, uh, Intel, right? Right now they have their own production, but if at any point Intel could have gone, you know what, fuck Apple, we're not giving them any chips right now for the next year, they'd be fucked from that moment on, that second onwards until they got their own factory built. You know what I mean? Like when you look at any product, you think of Apple, most all the parts or not all, but a lot of the parts are bought in from third parties or other parties. And it's the same thing with the magic industry. Like you, you know, you could be all encompassing. But realistically it's an ecosystem.

[01:45:20.120]
But still, you know, it's funny that you mentioned, okay, all these companies, nobody's mentioned Illusionist. Like you guys didn't even think about that. You don't exist. Well, it's kind of a shame because 5 years ago it would have been a different storey altogether. It would have been like, okay, where are the top companies? Well, you have Penguin, Murphy's is the wholesaler, and you have Illusionist obviously in that conversation.

[01:45:42.340]
But now it's like, it's just crazy how, like, the damage that Back to Black campaign did. And overnight— I disagree.

[01:45:54.510]
I love that fucking Brad Christian shooting a laptop. There's a video of me without a shirt reviewing it.

[01:46:00.180]
It's, oh, it's hilarious. But have, in Magic, have you ever seen a company go— I mean, they had a few, like, sort of like semi-heartbeat revival moments where they had the fucking CPR machine on them, where they were like, you know, with a Ben Hill release Kickstarter. But you know what I mean? It would, you know, look what they are. It's, it's as a case study for bad marketing. It's very hard to find something that did so badly. Like, next year, was it, was it, um, Pinterest, uh, made, uh, Dirty images not available or something overnight.

[01:46:37.780]
No, it was, uh, I think OnlyFans. That OnlyFans said we're not gonna do porn anymore.

[01:46:41.960]
Nudity. And it nearly killed them overnight. And then they reversed the decision. But I think also, I think also, I think it was there, it was with Pinterest as well.

[01:46:49.970]
Like, they could have been. Yeah, I do remember something.

[01:46:51.830]
And I think that like that has crippled them, or they're like a fraction of what they used to be. But in magic, I can't think, I can't think of a better example of of any self-owned other than Hank Lee.

[01:47:05.370]
Hank Lee, what happened with him?

[01:47:07.090]
Dude got sent to prison for stealing from his customers with all their credit card, millions in credit card fraud. I can't think of a faster downfall in Magic.

[01:47:16.820]
What, you know, I like the idea, right? I really did. As far as like a rebranding to how it used to be in the glory days and a potential. But yeah, I think you realise the retardation of the average Magic consumer. And I don't mean by the average Magic, I mean the average consumer in general. That, for example, they were trying to do something very artistic, I think illusionist with let's just go back, let's go back to black, how we used to be. And then the way they sort of conveyed that. And there was also some, you know, issues with the, like how they actually went about it in terms of, you know, turning off the website and doing other stuff that people were like, wait, what about all these products that I've spent hundreds of dollars on, like hundreds of dollars on over the years?, on the website. Well, I still have access to that. And it's like all these people had questions that weren't answered because it was trying to be artistic rather than, um, being, uh, clear and defining what it is that they're about to do, uh, which again, I, I like first.

[01:48:12.320]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:48:13.300]
I also— then they followed, they followed up. It was that plus they had a lot of bad will in the industry anyway at the same time going into it, and that just made for the perfect storm of a downfall. Um, things like they publicly discontinued like a bunch of apps.

[01:48:30.070]
Uh, but they didn't—

[01:48:30.970]
that the shitty part is they didn't go back to black. That's the part that I hate, because the idea was we're gonna go back to how it started, we're gonna go back to— that's how it felt like for me, that they were going to go back to, you know, when it used to be fucking great and, uh, when they were like a beacon in the industry with fucking these guys putting out things that nobody else has put, exclusive items for them., and videos and all this. And they didn't do that. They just did the same, but with a different colour profile.

[01:48:56.510]
Craig, you, you, you watch a lot of that Company Man channel on YouTube and you study business and businesses a lot. Like it's probably one of your secret survival style knowledge bases that you have. Yeah. Um, you were, you were around for the Back to Black, uh, tragedy that took place, or the Back to Black, uh, apocalypse that essentially put the, the final few nails in the coffin for them.

[01:49:21.160]
Yeah, the problem was it was the perfect storm of a clusterfuck because you had, um, the back-to-back campaign that nobody really understood. It wasn't really explained. And it was kind of around about that same time that they also then withdrew the support for all of their apps, which pissed off a lot of the community. It was also a lot of that time that they decided to migrate their stuff over to another server. And, um, rather than going, hey, I'm really sorry, uh, I've lost all your downloads, don't worry about it, it'll be back up in like 48 hours, they just sent a cryptic message out that made people feel like they were, they were shutting down literally overnight, which pissed people off because they thought they'd lost all their downloads and they'd lost a bunch of stuff. And all of this stuff happened in a very short period of time, which I feel kind of maybe caused caused a percentage of the community to maybe not trust them as much as they used to. And also I think they went away from their core values. You know, the—

[01:50:19.940]
I was gonna say that this, they are a magic company that did visual magic with a target age group of 14 to 17-year-olds, more than newer beginner cat— well, I mean, primarily beginner category. That is their core audience and their demographic, same thing. Yeah. And then they slowly shifted towards like mentalism, trying to be for pro magicians. And, and like, the business model would be get a new person to find magic, get set them up, and then let them travel on their journey and go to the professional companies. But they tried—

[01:50:54.210]
there was a period of time where they changed their target audience. I think that during that time as well, I don't think they really knew what they wanted to be. Um, I, I, I, I think they wanted to be for professionals and they wanted to be squeaky clean. And, and, and then there was a period of time during the Back to Black where they were, they were like, no, we're going to go back to our roots and we're going to do that sort of stuff. They had Pig Cake in for a while, so maybe they were going for more edgy content. Uh, they had like the face of the company was Pete Turner for a while, and they were bringing out lots of, uh, mentalism set. And it was almost like, what, we're going to do this now, we're going to do this now, we're going to do this now, we're going to do this. And, and, and the key thing with marketing is communication. Um, and, and a lot of during all of this, they weren't really communicating with their customer base. And now we've got into a situation where their social media isn't as active as it used to be.

[01:51:42.300]
Their emails are very, very generic. They're not bringing out stuff a lot. And when they do, that's when they post something on social media.

[01:51:49.460]
And I also, I also think as well, to couple this together, the only thing they were sort of publicly coming out from them was that the magic industry is dying, playing cards are dying, the magic industry is not making profits, everyone's telling you lies. So you, which, which wasn't true, isn't true for a fact. So you couple all that together with bad strategy, bad marketing, trying to change the demographic, becoming a company that they're not known to be, which is, you know, to cater purely for like professional mentalists and magicians. On top of that, then they're telling people something which for the most part everybody knows isn't true. It makes for a, it, there's no surprise why and everyone else is in a golden era.

[01:52:35.180]
And I think the main thing is in the last year or two, and I have to be very careful because I had somebody leave a comment on my YouTube channel the other day on one of my videos saying, uh, literally 2 days ago, I'm reading it now saying, um, I know I, I've tried to find the comment from Illusionist and I can't. The crude Illusionist said Craig better watch his step. So I don't know what that means. Um, maybe I'm gonna get sued again, I don't know. For who left that? Uh, a guy that's commented on my channel a hell of a lot, like he's had over 1,000 comments. So he's one, I think that sounds like one of those tongue-in-cheek jokey comments, like, yeah, maybe, maybe not.

[01:53:13.090]
But yeah, because I don't think they want you, I don't, I, they're not in Magic, I don't think.

[01:53:17.870]
I think they've even said like, and that was going to bring me to my point. The biggest thing that I think is in the last 2 years, they've been, um, they haven't really been focused on bringing out magic. And I know what that's like because when I left in, uh, the community and, and, and decided to focus on my business, I focused on the growing of the business. I focused on the logistics. I focused on building a business from an operational point of view, from an automated point of view, building a company. And as a performer, I kind of took my, my foot off the gas for a couple of years I didn't add anything new. I just went out, performed. I kind of went through the motions. Because when you focus on something that's new and shiny and exciting, the other thing becomes almost like a bit of a, a, a labour you have to do. And I'm, I'm looking at the website. They obviously opened a marketing company a couple of years ago called MTHD Agency, and they put so much effort into this, and it's a good website. And they, they put a blog up at the beginning of the year saying the MTHD marketing agency has been named the best marketing agency of the year 2025 by Consumer Ratings Institute.

[01:54:24.190]
And it goes on, it's written by Garance, and it goes on about how it's a California full-service marketing design agency, endorsed, announced it's been named best marketing agency 2025, and goes on and on and on. So a lot of their focus is on there. Now, I don't know how big the Illusionist team is. I've always heard that is quite small really, um, by, you know, most magic big— when you consider how big Illusionist is, I've heard it's quite a small team. You look at this agency and you've got obviously the CEO's picture, that the first thing that you see is, is, is, is Geraint. Um, but then once you— that when you— so these are the people working there: Geraint Clark, um, Oban Jones, Brad Christian, Romy, uh, Meermans, Hazel Hernandez, Yannick Barth, Josh Olson, Hannah Glassbrook, Jennifer Riordan. But there seems to be— and that's operations manager, Shopify expert, Meta and Google Ads expert, head of video production, account manager, marketing specialist. Um, Brad is listed as co-founder and business strategy expert. Uh, and, and Oban Jones is co-founder and creative director, and Geraint Clarke is co-founder and CEO. But it looks to me like a lot of their effort is being put into this marketing agency, which means that they're kind of in the same situation that Alakazam were when Pete Nardi was just like, you know what, I'm happy with the way things are.

[01:55:59.480]
I'm happy with where it is. I've built Alakazam for the last 30 years. It's at a level where I'm very happy with it. I'm just gonna let it take over. I think that all of the efforts, you know, uh, I don't know Garren personally, but I know that he's always focused on marketing as a marketing thing. He's always been passionate about marketing. I think all of his focus and his attention is in the marketing agency now. Maybe he thinks that's more of a legitimate business. Maybe that's where he wants to put all of his energy. But because of that, from the outside looking in, it looks to me like that is why Illusionist is suffering because all of the emphasis is being put into this business and you can only juggle so many things at once. You know, if you've got the—

[01:56:35.920]
or is it like, is it suffering because of that? Or is it that they, the illusionist obviously crumbled and it's like, well, do we try and rebuild the ship for like the third time? Or do we just buy a new ship? You know, could you get a new ship?

[01:56:55.110]
Well, I think it's a lot of fucking shame. Yeah, it's a shame though. It's a shame because again, Illusionist is, uh, I think that it's a good reason as to why a lot of people in the industry, including me, uh, I'm sure Lord, you to some extent, um, like it's, it's why we're at this position where, you know, even in terms of theory, even in terms of magic, like everybody at some point got and went through their catalogue and fucking learned something or were inspired or maybe it started.

[01:57:23.960]
It was the start, right? That's the, that's the, that's the customer progression. They get people who are new into magic. They find out, oh shit, magic could be— I didn't realise magic was fucking cool. Like, look at these guys, they're fucking rock stars doing magic. And then you, you get your basic foundation knowledge base from E and you progress then to other magic resources to become more professional. And if they'd stuck in the lane, of what they did best. Also losing like figureheads like McKinnon and Madison was, was, you know, a huge blow. Whether they ever admitted or not, it was—

[01:58:00.760]
but look at what they did though. Look at what they did with Madison, McKinnon, all these guys that got their start in that company or at least ran through that company, went on to infinitely bigger and better things. And I think that goes for a lot of their sort of creative heads. So they had the ability to churn out and at least give these guys a push in the industry or give themselves a push where they could go on and do fucking things that superseded their time in that company. And imagine that, but with new and fresh faces that they're able to fucking do and push these guys and make these guys talent and stuff.

[01:58:32.680]
Yeah. The next McKinnon. Yeah. That was the one of the core issues that he is that they— careful, I'm trying to think what the best way of phrasing it is. So if I was— I mean, I'm the founder of a magic company. Say I hire someone who's a fucking amazing cinematographer and he's going to be— I can see this kid's going to be the next Peter McKinnon, the next fucking Zack Snyder of cinematography or whatever, and he's working with my company. I would do anything within my power to foster that talent and then know that they're too good to stay with me forever, and nor should they. So find a way to keep my connection with that person while watching them grow outside the industry. So, and try and like, uh, keep a fucking— find a way to keep that bridge alive, right? Knowing that like, look, it would be ridiculous for me to expect this person to stay with how much talent they've got. This is a superstar. But let's see if I can give them their fucking step up and maybe that will come back with good karma in whatever. That was absolutely not the case.

[02:00:03.620]
E. That was not, that was not the case at E. It was very much like, no, like you, like, yeah, I can't really like get—

[02:00:14.830]
which imagine that. I mean, an ideal world, could you imagine like a, like a situation where ultimatums thrown about, thrown around a lot, but it didn't have to be that way. But imagine like a situation Yeah. Where they brought in, like, okay, for one-off, like, okay, this is the first time ever, this guy that's a beacon in the industry. You've seen him in a, you know, fucking his YouTube channel has grown to over 5 million subs and he's going to come in and do another lecture or he's going to come in and do a product release or some shit.

[02:00:44.300]
For example, like McKinnon left, never said E's name, never said E's name on his channel, but did a whole documentary on Theory 11 and JB, like a little mini documentary.

[02:00:53.720]
On his biggest at the time competitor, it would have been giving back, giving back to the, you know, the human on planet Earth. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's— it's really shot themselves in the foot. And they— I mean, there are so many names, though. That's the part that's fucking crazy, that there are so many names of people that ran through there and had interaction with them or worked with them or worked for them that they could have helped, like, fucking, you know, that down the ringer. And it's It would've been this factory of making people like that. Again, in the same vein that you just said of, you're aware of this guy's talents, you're aware of their skills and their credentials. So you know that they're not gonna be there forever. You hope that they are, but you know they're not, you know, you just know. So why not give them the best, take the best from them, you know, use them to profit, use them to fucking make whatever. Then when they go on their way, they're inevitably gonna, they're gonna come back to some capacity. And that's gonna help you out because now you have their platform that's probably, you know, exponentially more than yours.

[02:01:52.800]
And then they're gonna be able to fucking help you guys out. It becomes a mutual thing.

[02:01:56.840]
But again, unfortunately, I think— Imagine someone like McKinnon or Ramsey being like, oh my God, I started off at this company called Illusionist. They were fucking amazing. I, you know, I ended up wanting to do different ventures, but they literally, they like, you know, when I left, they actually said, you know what? Here's a camera on us. Go kick ass. Yeah, you know, something like, whatever the fuck it would be. Like, you know, like, you know what, man, you've helped us so much more than you realise. We're gonna cover you for a month or two to get yourself up and running. Throw us a bone when we know you're gonna blow us. I don't know, whatever, parting gift. It doesn't have to be gift. It doesn't mean financial, but anything that should be like, you know what, man? Fuck yeah. I'm your biggest mascot. Cannot wait to see you crush it. But, and you know, it was never like, Well, not always, but you know, it wasn't enough.

[02:02:44.060]
There's certainly more.

[02:02:44.740]
I would have been like, you know what, I'm like, well, I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but at Murphy's, uh, it was very much like, Lloyd, we don't know, like, I won't say like who, but it was very much Lloyd, you know, like, you've outgrown us, right? And you, you shouldn't really be— we love having you here, but like we, we think you should be going off to do your own thing and fucking crushing it, and whatever we can do to help, please do it. That was the sentiment for the last like 3 years at Murphy's, and I didn't want to— I really didn't want to go because I just love the people there. Um, but that's the— and because of that, my, my— that's why it's so holistic and why it's such a fucking dope company in terms of the staff and the people who work there, the community at Murphy's, because everyone was— people had each other's backs. People have each other's backs and were everyone's biggest mascot supporter. And that definitely wasn't the case. That was it.

[02:03:41.080]
And I don't know, I just, I, I think that in our industry it's such a fucking annoying thing when egos come into play because if you really step back as to what we're providing, yeah, it's entertainment. And you know, I think humans en masse would rather pay for entertainment than even sustenance. I think they even did studies on that, which is absolutely ridiculous. This, but, uh, we're fucking doing magic tricks, we're doing mentalism, we're coming up with stuff that's— it's entertainment. Like, there's no need for ego in this fucking industry, and yet that's the most pervasive fucking thing we have, which is why all these fucking— like the Magic Cafe, these fucking Facebook groups, it's just toxic breeding grounds just because of that ego. When, bro, you're doing a fucking card trick, like, there should be no— you shouldn't think that you're better than anybody else because you think you have like psychological input in humans, you're doing it in the context of a fucking card trick. Like, know your worth in the earth, essentially, and fucking just understand that we're in this industry, that it's not gonna be, uh, what we're talking about, I think, um, at some point, Lloyd, about, uh, there's space for everyone in this fucking industry.

[02:04:48.880]
Yeah, there's competition. Exactly. There's absolutely space for everyone. And even, for example, like, uh, Now that there's this crazy upsurge in like masterclasses and subscription-based models where even like for me, Pancake Magic Academy, we have Netrix, we have, you mentioned Unlimited, Nattika Zam. Yeah, they're sort of competition, but they all exist in this space. There's ample, people are willing to fucking spend for all of them. Like there's not gonna be a situation where it's gonna be like, okay, great, another one came up, now I'm fucked. Fucked. It's stupid. And it's especially when it came to Illusionist that I think they had a sort of mentality of like, as Peter would say, dog-eat-dog world, you know, as opposed to dog-eat-dog world, that it's fucking stupid. It's really dumb. And I hate it because I love them. I hate it because I fucking love them. And they're a big part as to why I'm in the current state that I am as far as like magic thinking and You know, they gave me my start. If it wasn't for those videos and that metaphor that that company was trying to push, I would not be into magic.

[02:05:55.940]
I'd be a fucking, I don't know, a fucking teacher somewhere unhappy, you know? And it's a shame. It's a shame because I think a lot of people have that same belief. And the fact that they're not even in the conversation anymore. I don't think Craig or you, Lloyd, I don't think any of you guys even thought, oh, illusionist. You just immediately went Vanishing Ink, Malik Azam.

[02:06:14.000]
Penguin Magic. Wasn't even a thought.

[02:06:16.480]
And I think the thing is, there was occasions where, um, Illusionist was, was riding high, and you can always sort of— so Brad was the founder, then he brought in Jay Baim, who owns Theoryland, uh, and Brad himself said like, that guy was, uh, he was 16 years old and he fucking revolutionised the company. Then, uh, so, so you could sort of track track what's happening there. There was, there was Brad started, huge growth. Jay Baim come in, huge growth. He left, started Theory 11, but then Brumbelow, Jason Brumbelow took over and he gets whatever it is when it comes to marketing and magic. He fucking gets it. Can't explain it, but he, because he left and went to Murphy's and then changed the whole Murphy's, Murphy's as they are now in terms of the studio department, all the products they put out, that whole sort of entity was launched by Brumbelow. Brumbelow was the guy who designed all the ghost card decks and everything. He's the one that brought in Robert Kinnan. He's the one that had the— he just has the eye. He really captured the style of Illusionist that everyone thinks of, that fucking aesthetic.

[02:07:24.540]
A lot of that was his artistic direction. So you had Brad started it, Jay Baim, Brumbelow, Brian McKinnon, Madison. You had Jake Bird, who was a marketer from Australia who marketed Pyro, which is their biggest success, most successful product. He's the one that get it on all the TV stations and stuff. Then, and you can see that then from, and there was, it was Geraint and people left and everything. And pretty much I think, you know, from the moment you can sort of track from the moment like the, the team left is when shit went south and it was nothing to do with the industry, like the magic industry not having money or playing cards that died off.

[02:08:07.490]
A lot of people that work at Illusionist, they leave pissed off. I mean, you did, uh, most people I speak to have. Like, I remember when they booked Caleb Morelli in for like a week and they blew up on Instagram that you left after a week really annoyed. I, I, I But you know, it's just, it's just a thing. I think what it comes down to more than anything else, beyond the team leaving, beyond management decisions, beyond Back to Black campaigns, I think the thing that— and, and here's the irony, because the same team that run Illusionist run a marketing agency, and marketing is all about communication. And as far as I can see from the outside looking in, most of the issues that Illusionist have these days are to do with communication. When you— when, when E were at their strongest and their best, being a fan of E made you feel like you're in a very special club. They, they fostered a community and they communicated very, very well to that community. They, they cared about the community, they cared about their fans, they cared about their supporters, and you were proud to be part of Illusionist and part of that infrastructure.

[02:09:20.830]
That feels like it's gone away because there's been a lot of times where, um, they've done a bait and switch and like, oh, you know, um, we're shutting the company down. Only joking. We're taking away your support for apps. Only joking. There's not really any community-driven support. The social media is effectively dead in the water unless they've got something to sell. Uh, I know they had their own streaming platform. No one talks about it anymore. I don't know if it's still there or if it's not there. But no one talks about it. Their forums used to be quite vibrant. I don't see anyone talking about that anymore. I'm pretty sure they had a Discord channel. I don't think they talk about that anymore. And their emails that they send out these days are literally just two lines going, hey, we've got a new trick to sell, here it is, and that's it. It really comes down to communication. They are not communicating with their fans. They have hardcore fans like Pig Cake who's like, oh, really miss Illusionist. I I'm, I, I, I, a lot of who I am is because of Illusionist. Those fans would come back in waves if they actually treated them with some respect or they actually treated them as something more than just a customer that they can make a few dollars off on their next release.

[02:10:32.090]
But they don't do that. And that's not me just saying that. That's just my opinion. You look at the entire landscape. The Discord channel doesn't really exist. The streaming platform doesn't really exist. They don't really interact in social media anymore. They used to do live streams all the time. They don't do that anymore. They, they used to like put things up to hype people up. They don't do that anymore. Used to send cryptic emails out. They don't do that anymore. They used to have a fucking face, you know. The last face they had was Pete Turner. They don't have that anymore. They don't have a spokesman. You couldn't say to me, who's the guy at Illusionist? Who's the main guy? You'd probably say it was Garrent, but it's not Garrent. He's the CEO. So for me, say it's, it's, it's somewhere along the way they lost the ability to communicate with their fan base, which was always the most important part of Illusionist, and their fan base have gone away. And therefore now they're just a shop that sells tricks.

[02:11:33.510]
For how long though?

[02:11:35.450]
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, yeah, it's, it's, I think it's just getting rid of the stock now and then closing it down. It should be. But I, I think there was another important factor that they always had very, very, very good magicians, often emerging talents. They were, they had a good eye for picking up people that were the next best thing that you hadn't heard of yet. And they always used to do something quite revolutionary, but they always used to come back. They do something and everyone will go, holy fucking shit. Shit, we didn't see that coming, or that they were the first to do that. And that for me was like, that built that, like, that brand loyalty was like, oh shit, yeah, like that disruptor energy, that, uh, like that, like, uh, not, not the term drain the swamp, but like, oh fuck, this is time to make a change instead of being stale. It was always something new and innovative and revolutionary, and that came from great marketing minds and great Magic minds. Coming together thinking how could they flip the industry on its head in one way or another.

[02:12:34.310]
That was their big USP, is like, that's why they were like the rock stars of Magic, because they were the guys who were going to drive the Bentley into the pool, right? Um, do you, uh, doesn't happen anymore.

[02:12:44.800]
Do any of you guys think that there, there could be— I know that right at this point you're kind of biassed thinking, yeah, there's no way to sort of patch the sinking ship up, but is there any way that you could see see that ship turning around and actually— definitely. Yeah, yeah.

[02:13:00.870]
What would it take?

[02:13:02.000]
You could bring in a team of magicians that care more about magic than money.

[02:13:07.250]
So that means it was selling or absolving that to somebody who would actually care about it.

[02:13:13.250]
But I think the thing is now, the problem they've got now because of the industry seeing sort of what they care about, or Like you said, the emails like, here, we're only coming to tell you something because we want to sell you something. The industry sees that as, okay, they're only fucking interested in us when they want something from us, right? That's a really hard image to shake. Really hard image to shake. So if they really wanted to try and get back, and like they said, they've said themselves, the industry, there's no money in it. They think it's dead. They think there's no money, blah, blah, blah. But if they really wanted to, they'd bring in a team of really talented magicians. Who don't give a fuck about profits and they start doing shit that flips the industry on its head for fun, first and foremost, or to bring in real change to the industry regardless of if it's a loss leader or not. And then whether it would take time, but if the Magic community could see then like, oh shit, you know what? They're actually doing this for us. This ain't for them.

[02:14:18.810]
This is for us. They've got people that I can see who they've brought in, or this person, I know this person only cares about Magic and the community and the shit they're doing. I can see the effects it's having for us. Give it a year or two because it's got to bleed through into the grassroots, right? It could probably, I mean, they have that big mailing list, which is always like the beating heart of a company. Then, then that's probably one— that's not the solution, but it's one solution to claw back, right?

[02:14:50.990]
I was gonna say that, uh, I know Craig wanted to say something, but, uh, I, uh, when they first sort of approached me to make content for them, the way that it was pitched was that they wanted to make like a fucking, like, uh, Avengers, like grab a bunch of known people. And I guess they considered me to be well known, uh, but they wanted to get like Avengers going for the first time it.

[02:15:09.670]
So that was like—

[02:15:10.550]
I was like, fucking, uh, fucking Peter Warwick, or, uh, fucking, uh, what's his name, um, the, the tiny guy from the fucking— Warwick Davis. Yeah, Warwick Davis. What's the one that, uh, the other guy that did, uh, the fucking— but the, the dude, the fucking Lannister. Yeah, yeah, who's that guy?

[02:15:32.970]
Uh, regardless.

[02:15:35.070]
Desk. Yeah, whatever. All right, fuck. Jesus, I've been bombing all day today. I've been just bombing all these fucking bits. My goodness. But they wanted to— they wanted to— thank you, God bless you. They wanted to bring— at least the pitch to me was they wanted to have like a fucking team of people that are fucking— that they could bring in that are sort of recognisable. And then that was a sort of pitch to me, and that never happened. That never even fucking came to fruition. And I thought that would have been very interesting to have like, um, you know, not just one face, but to have many faces and to have them be sort of known industry, like even underground people in Magic. And I thought they were going in that direction for a little while when they were like bringing in stuff like Juan Colas and people that are these fucking just absolutely completely talented people that are, you know, they stand on their own. And imagine you bring them in and you have them be a creative force behind you. That's where I thought they were going. And they just just sort of immediately went against that.

[02:16:32.490]
Like, it took no time whatsoever.

[02:16:34.090]
And I think I know why. Because like the Juan Colases and the, uh, the other like, uh, Spanish magicians, they are fucking incredible magicians, right? They're fucking astoundingly talented. Like, we're talking like the, the, they are the, the, the grand, the next grandmasters of magic. But we go back to that issue of of knowing your core audience. Their core audience are 14 to 17-year-old newcomers to magic. That skill level is, or the lessons being taught, which is fucking priceless from people like Juan Colás and others, that's very much lost on their core demographic, their target audience. When like García and Hao Chin, were coming to the table. They were bringing phenomenal magic, but a lot of it was just— most of it was phenomenal, but it could also be done by anyone. And they could teach things in such a way, or they knew that their target audience were newcomers. They knew who their audience was. Everything was like, can be done by anyone, blah, blah, blah, easy to do, easy to learn, go out and perform in minutes, bang, bang, bang. And those were just fucking bangers. And of course there was some then I mean, some things I would aim more to the professional magicians, obviously, but they, they understood that what they— what their, um, MO was: find the new people in magic, bring them up to a certain level, allow them to continue on their journey.

[02:18:04.290]
And instead, when you bring in fucking grandmasters who are like the Juan Calá stuff, is, is great magic but quite difficult. Yeah, yeah, right.

[02:18:13.320]
Well, that Heartbeat one was Fucking amazing. They managed to sell pencils for like $30, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:18:20.980]
So stuff like that was, was a hit because it was super simple, right? But then you look at the safety pin stuff, quite difficult, like beyond the average like 14-year-old starter magician, right? Clever, but super hard. And I think, yeah, I think, I think it's about knowing who your target audience is. Like Craig says, great communication. And then forgetting about— I mean, you have to take it into consideration, but really put out a mountain of goodwill to show that you are doing this just to be part of the conversation, not to take home the bread. But that might not be what they want, right? That's why they've gone into another industry, because it's probably more profitable for them. Um, and they are a business.

[02:19:06.460]
I've always said, if you want to be a millionaire, Yeah, don't be a magician. Yeah, like, I, I had a business partner way back in the day and his name was Russell and he is a certified millionaire now. He didn't become a millionaire through magic, he became a millionaire by leaving, by, by going, right, okay, I like magic but I can make more money doing this, leaving magic, just completely forgetting all about it and just going into a completely different industry. Because magic is a calling. Um, I, I, I, if I'd set my business up doing anything else, I would be be far more successful than I am now. Far more successful than I am now. And I firmly believe, you know, you can't— when I was looking at their marketing agency website and I was looking at the awards that won, those are real awards. I know they are. You can't make those up. And they're community-driven. I believe that that marketing agency is successful, and I believe that that marketing agency is making a lot of money. And when you are in a situation where you have two businesses, and one business is making all of the money and then the other business is struggling and you're having to put, it, it's kind of like, well, it's the 80/20 rule.

[02:20:15.570]
You know, I'm putting 80% of my effort into Illusionist and I'm getting 20%. Do you know what I mean? You, you start to go, well, okay, it makes sense to put everything there. You make sense. And, and if Illusionist was super successful and thriving. And it was the most profitable thing in the world. You wouldn't set up another business. You'd be focusing on that. So the very fact that they've set up a marketing agency tells you everything that you need to know.

[02:20:38.960]
And I'll say for the last year, uh, 2 years that I was there, we had to have weekly meetings with Brad Christian where all of us had, and I forgot, I completely forgot about this. I, and I got some, um, I've got some, uh, examples of stuff in the house, or used to. Every week we'd have a meeting every single week about other businesses that we could start up outside of magic. That's all Brad wanted to do was find what industries could we get into that's not magic related. And we did that for about 2 years straight, every single week, hours and hours and hours. I fucking hated every single second of it because I was absolutely 100% totally uninterested in anything.. And as the creative guy there, I had to come up with a bunch of fucking stupid ideas and some, and they were like, oh, we fucking love this. Yeah, this fucking joke. It was gonna be a joke company. They did do a joke company. I had to come up with a bunch of fucking stupid birthday cards and pranks and stuff. They were looking at, it was like Brad has a Whole Foods type of market supermarket, or did.

[02:21:43.180]
He has a winery. He has a wedding photography location, wedding venue. Like, it was like, so saying like, you know, that they don't care about Magic or their eyes on another prize, that's a fact. Like, they— like, Brad at least was like, let's get the fuck out of Magic. And, and people wonder, you know, yeah, like, I completely forgot if that was the pain of my life for so fucking long. It was the most retarded fucking waste of my time that I could possibly imagine. Uh, but that was, that was mandatory for for so long. So, like, you know, and it's very obvious when a company doesn't really care about what they're doing. There's only so long you can pretend to care about magic. There's only so long you can really pretend to care about making your customers better magicians, right? Because ultimately, that's what they— that's what a magic shop should be doing, right? You should be thinking, how can I make every person that comes to the door a better magician when they walk out the door. I really care about doing that. It's very obvious to see that, like, that is not at the forefront of their attention.

[02:22:51.860]
Yeah. And if that's not really the fucking shame goal, that's got their number one ethos, then it's very apparent to anybody looking from the outside that, that their heart's not in it and their business is running for ulterior motives. Gifts, which is profit.

[02:23:10.200]
Fuck, that sucks dick. That really does. Because man, I don't know, I just, I wish—

[02:23:14.160]
I really felt like the inception, the early days of Illusionist, years and years and years ago, like, I, I felt like, oh shit, like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna become a wicked magician because of this company. Like, I fully trust them to take me to the next level. I fully did. I don't know if you guys felt the same.

[02:23:30.010]
Dude, I thought I was going to be doing two-card money and fucking train tracks, dog. I thought that I was going to be fucking doing Biddle tricks in warehouses, man. Like I'm just there in a fucking abandoned—

[02:23:39.990]
Synth or Chaos card through window, factory sealed, gaff decks. It was like, oh fuck yes. It felt like you were getting something that not even other magicians could get. You felt like this fucking awesome and you felt like Brad was on a fucking solo mission, like Odysseus across the seas or some shit to find the best magic and and let you get access to it. That's what it felt like.

[02:24:06.720]
I'm more disappointed that I could not find for the life of me Brad Christian. I thought it was Days of Our Lives, the show that he was on. No, it's As the World Turns. And I spent a good amount of time researching and looking for his appearance on that fucking show. And I could— dude, I was looking at backlogs from like the '80s for that show. And I finally thought that I found the right one. Because the episode was about like card sharks and gambling. And no, no, I could not find him on the fucking show. And I really wanted to see young Brad being a card shark and even had his name there in the autobiography. He said, oh, he played a card shark named Clinton. And I looked that up and I could not find it, which is a fucking shame because I would pay top dollar for fucking seeing Bratty Daddy in a soap opera as a card shark. So it sucked. Fucking sucked.

[02:25:00.090]
Yeah, yeah.

[02:25:00.510]
So yeah, I mean, yeah, at what point is it the, like, the, the Ship of Theseus, whatever, you know, where you fucking—

[02:25:09.390]
I say like a Moses, that he's just there fucking parting the sea, allowing the, uh, the, the dark edgy edgelord magicians coming through with the fucking eyeliner. And unfortunately, that's not the case anymore. But man, fuck out.

[02:25:21.960]
Do you think, do you think they're gonna try and come back again with a vengeance and be like, you know We're all about Magic again, baby. I don't think so. I think they found their other venture to be more beneficial and it's about to— they should be doubling down on that. But I give the— at least give the old guard some clarity and close the chapter of the last chapter of the book or something.

[02:25:45.560]
I pitched Ninja 3 for free. I'm like, dude, I do this for free, dude. I'd record it. I'd fucking do it. Like, just give me the fucking range to do it and I fucking do it, you know, like, give me that shit.

[02:25:57.730]
She was begging Brad when I was there to do Ninja 3. Begging, begging.

[02:26:01.920]
Yeah. Oh man, I was like, like just fucking trying to get it so hard. Like, dude, do that, do Crash Course fucking 2, like bring it back. But they had an idea where they wanted to do like a master-student thing, you know? And I'm like, even that I'd be fucking down for, like Brad's fucking teaching somebody like, oh, this is how you could do a fucking pass or whatever the fuck. Like, fuck you, I'd be down for that shit. But no, nothing, nothing. It was just more focused on, again, other endeavours. The heart's not there, man. If the heart's not there, it's not going to fucking— you can't make a relationship work with one fucking side, like one-sided effort. It's not love. Yeah, it's like a fucking— so I feel like a little stalker now. Like I'm the one that's like trying to hold the relationship up and it's not fucking working. It's not, dude. Come on. Come back to me, dude. Like how it used to be. You don't remember?

[02:26:52.090]
Do you think they're gonna try and take another bite to the cherry or?

[02:26:55.090]
Uh, nah, they're too busy doing their marketing thing because the thing is, like I say, I just keep coming back to that. They wouldn't have set that business up and put so much effort into it. Like if they, if, if, if they hadn't like wanted something else outside of Magic. And I think in order to fix Illusionist and trust me, you can fix Illusionist, but in order to fix Illusionist, you will have to put so much time and effort in. And I've only got— there's a crossover of the people that work for this marketing agency and work for Illusionist, isn't there? I don't know the team very well, but I'm sure there's a crossover. And it just seems that like everything that they do with this marketing agency is taken away from the amount of time and resources.

[02:27:39.380]
Honestly, the best way they could do it would be to say, right, okay, it's done, but we want to give it a go. We're busy. Let's create an entire new team and see what they can do. Give them carte blanche for 12 months and see what they can do. So a team of really passionate magicians who are super hungry and are very, very, very talented in their own right. And just say like, okay, we're giving you the keys to the kingdom. See you in 12 months and leave them the fuck to it.

[02:28:12.660]
A league of extraordinary retards. That's what I want. That's what I would lock them in a mansion like how they used to do. We locked these two guys in a fucking mansion for 2 weeks and this is what they produced. Do that for like a, like an experiment for a, for a year. Like, oh, this is, uh, we let him out, you know, we connected him to the internet and this is, uh, week 1 out of 52. This is what, uh, he put out. And it's solid gold. You've never seen this idea before. Like, that'd be fucking hysterical.

[02:28:40.020]
Also, another case to study is, or to see, like, you know, if it could work or not, is Sans Mind on, like, January 1st made a big comeback and I haven't heard anything about them. It's over 6 months later. Oh shit.

[02:28:52.820]
Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:28:54.000]
They did make like a big song and dance about we're coming back, motherfuckers. Yeah. January 1st, baby. 2024 is going to be my year.

[02:29:02.200]
I think they've bought BigTrick, I think. I don't know. That's quite good. I don't know. I haven't really heard any buzz about it.

[02:29:08.780]
I think what it is sometimes, these people, companies like people, like when they've, they've been successful before, like every, every now and then they're sitting there and they're like, you know what, I'm going to fucking come back at this. I'm going to get it. And they do it and they dip their toe in the water and they have a, they get a little fucking itch. Scratch.

[02:29:25.000]
I did that. I did that. I didn't want to be bothered actually. I did that, right? So I left the Magic community for a decade. Because I fucking hated the magic community. It's all, you know, because of Rare.

[02:29:34.430]
I feel it was mutual.

[02:29:35.650]
Yeah, it was a mutual breakup. But then about 3 years in, 3 or 4 years in, I was like, you know what, I missed making videos. I'll make a, uh, I'll make another video. I'll make a video. And I set up a YouTube channel called Nothing But the Truth. You probably don't even remember that. It's a little footnote in the In the history of Craig Petty lore, I set up a YouTube channel. It's still out there. You can find it. Nothing But the Truth by Craig Petty. I think I put about 12 videos up, uh, and only 12 videos up. And each one of them was fucking angry. Each one of them was a full-on angry, I hate the community. I hate the, I hate the fucking world. Let the fucking magic community burn in hell. It started off being reviews and then just turned into fucking And the reason is I thought I wanted to come back to the Magic community. I thought I wanted to, but I didn't. I didn't. And it was just pissing me off making those videos. And those videos were reflective of that. And it was only when I kind of, you know, 10 years later that I kind of got myself into a zen state of mind where it's like, you know what, I wanna come back because I want to give back, not because I want to, you know what I mean?

[02:30:47.100]
It was a different reason why I came back and I think that's why things have worked out very, very differently for me since I said that, Magic TV. But that's to say, you're completely correct. Unless you want to change something, unless you want to, um, make something better, then there's just no point. And I don't think they do. I think that they're coasting along. I have— I made the prediction earlier this year. I make a predictions video every single year of things that are going to happen in the Magic community. I put on there, Illusionist will close down. I still believe that that will happen by the end of the year. I don't think they will.

[02:31:21.190]
I think they'll bleed it out slowly. 'Cause all closing down is admitting defeat. Whether they dress it up as a different reason as to why it's closed down, the magic industry's dead, playing cards are dead. That's why we're closing our doors. We're, you know, whatever they gotta do to save face. I still think it's admitting defeat to close down and that That would be a very tough pill to swallow.

[02:31:46.170]
The stealth wallet in the sky is going to open up and Peter Nardi is going to fucking just float down, buy that shit out, and then fucking make that a part of the Alakazam catalogue. You know, he's just going to fucking churn it out somehow. Stealth Assassin 2 is going to fucking— yeah, it's not Stealth Wallet, it's Stealth Assassin. Fuck, I ruined the bit. But he's going to— it's going to open up., and he's just going to come down dressed in full leather and be like, I'm buying this shit. This is fucking mine, dude. And then he's going to put on the eyeliner and actually put out Ninja 3. Fuck. God, now I'm hard thinking of that. Fucking Artie Nardi, fucking DJ Nardi coming in, fucking wrecking that shit, just buying it out like 1914 and fucking Print by Magic. Just the next one in the category is fucking— because then what hypothetically would be the worth now? Go. Oh, you know, you think that somebody could buy them for like under a mil?

[02:32:49.980]
I, I think depending how much stock they've got, plus the back catalogue and what copyrights you'd be getting for that, um, probably the— like, it's not worth just on the image and the brand of where it currently stands. Look, the other thing to take into consideration, like, they have this massive mailing list, but a lot of those emails are dead because they've captured from like almost 30 years ago, 25 years ago, whatever it is. So a lot of those emails are dead, they don't open. And a lot of, like, I say, you know, realistically, it's been the last, say, 5 years when really the big, the big drop-off has occurred, right? 5 to 6 years. That means that anybody getting into Magic in the last over half a decade doesn't know who they are or don't remember them for their glory days. They only have that opinion of them of, oh, like a minor sub-Magic brand. So the next wave of magicians coming through have no historical bias. This in the, in the, uh, in the, in the mind. So that, that, that factors into it. But then you got your pre-existing copyrights, or, or I don't know how much would it— you know, the thing is, it's only, it's only worth as much as you would be willing to pay for it.

[02:34:19.540]
What would you pay? Let me get a team of investors, dude.

[02:34:22.330]
Oh, I wouldn't pay with it. It's a dead fuck. I wouldn't buy it in a million years. Fuck that. It'd be easier to set up, it'd be easier to fourth floor it. You, you, you, you— I know you don't want— you're, you're, you're a very different entity in that you're not wanting to be a global superstar magic shop, and you've got a very specific mission statement. But when I say I'd rather fourth floor it, I'd rather set something up from scratch and be, um, you know, have it, have it, you know, build a tribe from the beginning as opposed to try to save a sinking ship.

[02:34:55.280]
That's why I said it's like the Ship of Theseus. Is it Theseus? Have you ever heard of that analogy? Or, uh, uh, do you know what that is? So there's a question which is like, say, say you're in a rowboat, Pickig, and as you go along, one of the planks of wood that make the boat gets damaged, so you replace it. And as you keep going down the stream, another plank of wood gets damaged and you replace it. And that happens continuously as you're going along your journey. And at some point, you'll have replaced every plank of wood. The question is, is that an entirely new boat or is it the same boat?

[02:35:34.540]
Another way of looking at it is to the broom.

[02:35:37.890]
Well, let me finish this in there. So the thinking is if they try and patch all the flaws they've got, right? Will they end up being a new company or is it, or is there just too many cracks to be patched? But my thinking is the ship that they've got, it is a rowboat, right? And it's 2026. Nowadays you want a speedboat. So whether they patch up all the holes or not, they're still gonna be left in the same shitty boat. That's not good enough.

[02:36:06.700]
Yeah. Well, I mean, to me, a Cuban man, anything that floats is fucking good enough. Mate, to be honest.

[02:36:12.890]
What would you get over the fucking border?

[02:36:15.320]
Yo, fucking refrigerator, dude. Hit me with a fucking refrigerator, I'd come from fucking Havana to the Keys in a heartbeat, dude.

[02:36:24.920]
What was the other analogy you had, Craig?

[02:36:27.370]
Oh, it's, it's just, um, Trigger's broom. It's exactly the same analogy that you just said. I don't know if you've ever seen Only Fools and Horses. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Trigger had— it was Trigger, I think it was Trigger that had this broom, and he's changed the handle 5 times and he's changed the fucking head of the broom like 10 times. Oh yes. But he still is, it's the same broom.

[02:36:47.180]
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, fuck me, this even fixing all the damage and stuff, it's still, yeah, it's a different, it sounds like the name of this episode is gonna be Brad Christian's Cock.

[02:37:00.340]
So we went from James Randy's Cock to Brad Christian. Yeah, I know we're trying to avoid any sort of more litigation. You know, one-third of our members have already dealt with a lot of litigation. Let's not deal with a bratty daddy, uh, fucking, uh, litigation. Yeah.

[02:37:15.560]
Although I learned more about the American legal system every single day. Welcome, dude.

[02:37:21.750]
Welcome. You might as well be one of us.

[02:37:23.850]
Uh, fucking craziest thing that I find about the American legal system, there's a, there's a, you know, Channel 5 News, the guy who did All Gas, or who does All Gas, No Brakes, Andrew Kaufman. So he's in a very similar lawsuit that's just sort of coming to, coming to light now that you're in, Craig. Uh, actually, I'll send you the— have I sent you the video already? Very interesting. Watch, he already put it up 8 days ago asking for crowdfunding. And the thing that's strange about the American— so what happened to him was he made a video documentary on something, some guy, uh, came out of the woodwork and basically sued him for very very, you know, in line with the same shit that you're going through type of stuff, right? But on a big level, like millions of dollars. And again, all the stuff was like out of the blue almost. The guy was like, what the fuck are you even like accusing me of this for? But in America, because the court case was started, you kind of have— it's like I could say to Pickle, okay, Pickle, I'm suing you because you called me 'Ugly,' right?

[02:38:26.190]
And you could say, 'I've never— like, I literally— I never called you ugly, and you have no proof that I did that.' And I go, 'It doesn't matter. I'm spending half a million on suing you now. Now you have to come to court, and if you don't, you lose,' which is fucking insane. And then after a year for this Andrew Callahan court case, they decided to drop it. So all— and so, so they just dropped the case, and so he couldn't even recoup the legal fees. Where in Sweden, that's illegal. If you drop a court case after a year, you, you're now liable for their fees because you've forced them to pay fees. Um, and then, and then the court case got— a new case got brought in, and that's why he was crowdsourced, crowdfunded it. But yeah, in America, it's crazy that someone can just decide to legally bankrupt you, uh, if they've got more money than you, whether— even if the, the, the accusations are completely falsified with no evidence, they can just start that process and immediately you're in Yep. Fucking—

[02:39:17.920]
well, you guys don't have fucking commercials for lawyers, right? I don't think that's a thing in England. There's not going to be like, fucking come to Weinstein and Weinstein lawyer for— like, we have that shit because there's such a fucking industry on just frivolous lawsuits of nothingness. Just, hey dude, you fucking called me ugly. Well, guess what? That ruins my chances in the auspices of merit. And because of that I've lost these funds, so I'm gonna sue you on the behalf of you calling me ugly, uh, for that purpose. And it's like, what, what are you fucking talking about? And if you have money, you're fucked. Like, if you're— sorry, if you don't have money, you're fucked.

[02:39:54.830]
It's kind of frightening.

[02:39:57.240]
And regardless of how this court case with me is going to end up, and obviously we won't know until we got the judge's written ruling, and you know, we'll talk more about this in the future, I think it's fair to say that Mr. Maciek didn't— I'm pretty sure he didn't anticipate it going the way it has in terms of Penguin doing what Penguin would have done and not backing down and actually fighting. And with me hiring a First Amendment lawyer in America to defend myself, I mean, I'm fairly sure this did not go the route that he was expecting it to go.

[02:40:31.690]
But I also just think this was, this was just a, um, a, a, a strategy for profit. It was like, okay, let's fucking get some annual funds in. It's a strategy he's used time and time again. Oftens works. Just sue someone till they settle. Walk away with a bit of money in your ass pocket for the year.

[02:40:49.750]
Yep. Yeah. But what he didn't realise is that he's going one-on-one with the great one. You got Craig Hulk Hogan Petty going in there saying, that doesn't work for me, brother. That doesn't fucking work for me at all, son. We're going to fucking figure this shit out. I'm going to fucking step on you, Jeff Jarrett, WCW, Bash at the Beach. Bash at the Beach. Okay, fuck. He didn't realise who he was dealing with, mate.

[02:41:14.560]
Finger poker, dude.

[02:41:16.650]
No fucking bigger balls than Craig because Craig has one giant bollock for a head. This is coming in and dropping that motherfucker saying, deal with this shit. I'm putting 10 Spectacles on my testicles. Dude, you're— look at that. That's a screenshot. That is the fucking thumbnail of it. That's the thumbnail. Michael, if you're listening to this, on the second attempt you take and edited it, that's the thumbnail.

[02:41:40.000]
Well, he's got to put this up today, no?

[02:41:41.900]
Yes, he has. That, that, that's problematic for him sometimes, but we'll see what happens.

[02:41:48.060]
And it's already fucking for you guys. Like, for— I, I thought, because again, I, in my infinite wisdom, I assume that United States is the only time zone that exists, at least mine, the one that I'm currently in. And I realise you guys put it out at what, 5:00 on Wednesday?

[02:42:02.160]
Yeah. Which is like 12:00. Fucking. It's 5:00.

[02:42:06.660]
No, sorry, 6:00. No. Yeah, it's fucking 5:19 in the morning here, baby. So I thought you have 12 hours. No, no, he has fucking no time at all to run through this. Watch it. Fucking make sure that we don't say any slurs.

[02:42:20.140]
And yeah, well, yeah, that's never a thing we had to worry about until you joined. But yeah, that is the Fucking welcome, mate. The slur cheque is now a thing that we have to actually do. He has to literally print off a transcript and search for slurs just in case.

[02:42:34.000]
I do love that that was the first thing that you told me when you're like, hey man, Lloyd's not feeling well, could you just come up and do this live thing at Blackpool? And the first thing you said is, don't say any slurs, man. Just come on, please. I know we're at a bar, everybody's drinking, but just don't say any of them. I'm like, okay, I'll try. I try and I'm just vibrating because I'm like, oh, oh, oh, she's funny.

[02:42:58.870]
I do have to go though, because like I said, we started filming early today because I've got to go. But I know we're getting on a call for conference planning later on this afternoon. What time? Um, uh, I'll message you guys probably about 1 o'clock, maybe half one, but as soon as I know, I'll let you know.

[02:43:15.720]
Well, big— you, you're welcome on the call, but if you've got visitors, don't worry. Too much. We're just doing like, fucking—

[02:43:22.060]
I'll try to jump on.

[02:43:22.800]
I just gotta fucking turn her too much. That's the—

[02:43:26.400]
I'm not gonna cheat on Pete, all right? Pete's cheating. Pete's cheating on me. I think he has a new pig cake. I think Pete's got a new little pig cake that's helping him out recording stuff. Fucking, you know.

[02:43:35.710]
So here's the secret: you were never the only one.

[02:43:39.240]
I was never— yeah, I was just one of many in the league of extraordinary retards that, uh, Peter has as a catalogue of his underlings that fucking— he just— some— just, you know, I'm the— again, I'm the one-eyed man in the land of the blind, dude. I'm fucking the only one that could see, baby, with glaucoma.

[02:43:57.920]
Sitting on his little balcony with car lights in his eyes.

[02:44:01.110]
Yeah, it's the worst part, dude.

[02:44:02.960]
I can see the sun coming up now, I think, as well. Yes. Yeah.

[02:44:06.550]
And I think I saw figures by the pool here, which is weird because there's nobody supposed to be at the pool. It doesn't open They're still under construction, so it's kind of fucking scary. I think I might be hallucinating from fucking doing this shit.

[02:44:21.720]
I have to say, I know we give Pig Cake a lot of shit sometimes. I do have to say, I don't know many people that would stay up literally all night to film this shit. And I do appreciate it. You are a legend. Yeah, you are.

[02:44:36.110]
As a well-oiled third leg. We couldn't do this without you. We'd be— we'd be— if this, if this entire show was a stool in every sense of the word, we would fall down without our third leg.

[02:44:48.500]
Absolutely. Oh, oh, fucking bless you.

[02:44:52.840]
And it's to scale.

[02:44:53.660]
It's to scale. It is to scale. So with that being said, thank you once again for joining us on the podcast. I've got to go. Lloyd's got things to do. Pig Cake, it's— it's— he's still got an hour of darkness. He's going to crawl back onto the cup chair. But we will see you all next week. Lloyd, wrap it up, my man.

[02:45:12.300]
Have a shit week, you fucking clones. And remember, don't fuck kids. Even if they beg.

[02:45:22.370]
Oh, ew. Ew, that's even worse than what I said, which is even if they're hot. Oh. Oh, God.

[02:45:32.680]
Me, I just have to say, if you wanna listen to a good Magic podcast, go and find my interview on the Magic Podcast Network.

[02:45:38.450]
Ah, and having now learned a lot about the American legal system, I'd just like to say the, the thoughts and opinions of Big Cake and Lloyd Barnes do not necessarily represent the thoughts and opinions of Craig Petty and, and, and any associated companies to do with Craig Petty. Fuck you all and die. Go and listen to— eat cock. He's so much fucking better than all of us.

[02:46:00.710]
Look at his little, look at Picking's vagina armpit. Now he's got a conscious.

[02:46:04.220]
Oh look, he's waving. Oh God.

[02:46:07.030]
Oh, what's up Paris baby?

[02:46:10.120]
If you're listening on Spotify, thank you fucking lucky stars. See you next week. We apologise for disrupting your normal daily routine. Daily schedule. You may now relax, tuck your deck back in, and resume your regular day-to-day life. Remember to subscribe to be notified the moment each new episode goes live every Wednesday, and join our Facebook group to continue the conversation. The link is in the description to this podcast. Thank you for listening to The Magic Podcast.