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Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and
I'm here in the I studio with Helen

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Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.

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We're here to discuss the big events
of the week's news, not least since the

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last issue of the magazine came out.

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And we should begin with the
very biggest, of course, a new

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day has dawned, has it not?

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Or a new social media strategy.

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Helen: Yeah.

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Andy Burnham is our first, I say
Instagram native prime minister,

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which is quite yeah, an achievement.

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But he has, he's done two things In his
first week, one, he has done an absolute

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blizzard of policy announcements.

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And two, he's done a kind of
blizzard of, media things.

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So the most notable, okay, from an
inside baseball perspective, is that

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he has had every morning at 6:00 AM
in lobby correspondence, inboxes, a

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not embargoed policy announcement.

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Now, there are probably several
words in that sentence that you are

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craving for me to explain to you.

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So let me say, so the
lobby first all policy for

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Adam: a

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Helen: story.

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Okay,

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Adam: who is this Burnham you're

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Helen: talking about?

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Okay.

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That's not, it's not low work up.

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So if you have a lobby pass, that
means you are a journalist who works,

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on the grounds of Westminster, the
estate, the pa a parliamentary estate.

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There are, in return for your greater
access, you can wander around and kind

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of buttonhole people in corridors.

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You have to do a number of things.

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Like you have to, for example,
declare or interest, like where you

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might have outside speaking gigs.

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So it's understood that these are
people with privileged special access

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to politicians, and in return they
have to cleave to higher standards.

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They are very used to the
idea that before anything gets

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announced, they're told about it.

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So they can, in the nicest
way, go, are you gonna get the

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money for that from them, mate?

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Or, but you've already announced
this twice, or whatever it might be.

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Andy: Or, I presume just prepare
a story for the next day's paper.

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Okay.

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Helen: Exactly.

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but now, and so this is of course
enormous amounts of grumbling

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in the lobby, WhatsApp chat.

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So Burnham has done very few traditional
interviews, and also they've done this

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blizzard of, media stories that have
not been, they haven't played favourites

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and given a bit to the Daily mail
beforehand or whatever it might be.

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And they've made lobby
correspondence jobs harder.

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Now, you may say still your tears.

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Welcome to journalism where mostly people
don't give you things on, a pla most

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of the journalism that we do is things
that other politicians particularly

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would rather you didn't publish, rather
things that you do want to publish.

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But that has been very interesting, and
it's a signal of intent, which is what you

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always do as a politician in your first,
a hundred days, whatever it might be.

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And he's saying, actually, I
think the way I'm gonna talk

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to people is via social media.

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You are the gatekeepers,
you'll be old regime, and I

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actually don't need you anymore.

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Ian: and what do the new gatekeepers say?

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Thank you very much for this,
and then just put it up.

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Helen: that, yes.

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Okay.

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So that's the other thing is there
is another hidden reason why, for

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all that politicians will complain
about, oh, the lobby obsessed

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with punch and duty personality.

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they're all about
grandstanding themselves.

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There is a thing that one of the
things that are very annoyed with the

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lobby is that they say things like,
and how are you going to pay for it?

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Then Andy Vernon.

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and Andy Burnham is already retreated
into slightly what I think of as

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small bean mode, which is for those
of our internet persuasion, means

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that he's a little wounded puppy dog.

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And some people ask him questions about
number 10 North, and he said, this

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is, you being London centric critics.

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And I've, the SMP of masters of doing
this, this is you talking down Scotland,

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you say, when you say things like, drug
deaths are terrible in Scotland, or,

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your educational achievement benchmarks
have been com comprehensively failed.

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And they say, why do you hate Scotland?

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I'm gonna put that down as an early
marker of something that I feel could

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become annoying very quickly if it
becomes, why do you hate the North?

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Every time you say anything mean
about Andy Burnham, but you are right.

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The other problem with influencers
is that they don't see their role

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largely as asking hard questions.

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So I've been, have you consumed
any of the Odyssey Press tour?

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You've been on Instagram?

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I, and you'll have seen lots of it.

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Yes.

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But

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Andy: I did reread the poem.

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Helen: Yeah.

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Okay.

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That's a,

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Andy: that's a very, that's a very
old fashioned way of dealing with it.

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Adam: I've consumed far
too much odyssey discourse.

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I've gone through the
full thing in, a week.

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I've gone on my own personal
journey where I thought, this

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actually sounds quite good.

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I'd really quite like to see
this to the point where I'm now

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just shut up about the Odyssey.

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I don't wanna hear anything
more about this film.

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Helen: Wow.

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Okay.

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I think it's a great film.

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it's my very basic opinion.

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I it.

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Can we

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Andy: get back to

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Ian: the, vague reference

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Andy: you had?

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He had a 10 year plan as well.

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Actually thinking about it now.

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Nevermind.

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Sorry.

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Helen: Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Who will be the ccy of
this government anyway?

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Ian: Angela Rayna.

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Helen: Thank you.

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what's interesting about that is that
the Odyssey Pretor follows the way

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that now big movie Star press halls
go, which is essentially, they don't

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get asked questions by journalists.

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Sometimes they do, but like actors
always hated that because it's quite

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hard to talk about acting and they don't
wanna talk about their private lives.

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What's now happened, and I think
Bridgeton really pioneered this,

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is they play games together.

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So they've got the Odyssey cast
to play like guess Who Together.

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Or you do gimmicky things like you go
on Hot Ones, which is a podcast where

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you eat successively hotter chicken
wings until you die, essentially.

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But what's interesting about
that is that's the format that

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Auntie Burnham has learn from.

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Because what you do is you, so the
take the one of him and John Healy

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eating pub snacks together, Where
they had scampy fries and whatever

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you might say, that's just silly.

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Why am I watching two people?

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The two things you get from that is
we've got a policy about pubs, which

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is what they were doing to talk about.

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They're talking about their, business
rate cut and pubs, and two, my chancellor

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and I like each other enough that
we can bear to be in the same room.

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Yeah.

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Imagine Blair and Brown
eating pub snacks together.

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I mean that

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Adam: they did.

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They do.

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Do you not remember the ex
cream time with the ice cream?

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Ice cream where Tony had to
buy an ice cream for Gordon

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and pass it over with him and

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Helen: tell him

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Adam: ice cream and Gordon did that smile.

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He was used to do it just didn't
reach his eyes in any way whatsoever.

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Helen: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Ian: And neither mentioned the word
flake at all, which I thought was very

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Adam: restrained.

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Andy: So is this a showmance.

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Which you also get in Hollywood
press tours these days.

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Helen: Yes.

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I think there's, for the shippers
among us, they're going to ship John

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Healy and Andy Burnham together.

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Why you got this in my brain.

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Andy: But so one of the, one of
the clips that is doing exactly

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the thing that you're describing,
Helen is, where Andy Burnham did

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a, there's a, guy called Max Manko.

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He's Ukrainian.

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He has a thing called the Career Ladder.

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He climbs on a ladder, you climb on
the other side of the ladder and he

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asks you what you do for a living.

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And you have, he has two minutes
to guess what you do for a living.

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He asks you lots of questions.

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So this

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Helen: was, I guess your
first job actually, which is,

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Andy: this, was with Burn normally
with what do you do for Yes.

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I think he,

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Helen: that would've been quite easy

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Andy: Yes.

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Helen: In this.

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Andy: No,

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Ian: I'd quite like him.

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Andy: so the answer of Andy Burnham's
first job, which is probably why he

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was so happy to do the, this interview,
the Career Ladder one was that he

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was a football pools collector going
door-to-door, collecting for the football.

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Helen: I know I wanna do some journalism,
whether or not, 'cause it was the most

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stereotypically northern thing you
could, he was like, I was a, beagle in

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enforcer, I was a cloth cap manufacturer.

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Yeah.

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Really though, Andy was it really?

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Andy: some people have pointed out a lot
of the comments under the video were, oh,

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I didn't know we had a new Prime minister.

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that is doing the job in a way.

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Helen: that's what I mean.

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That's why when it's thoughtful, it's

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Ian: the bottom line of the job.

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I know you

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Andy: yeah,

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Helen: he, when he talked about his cap
on two pound cap on bus fairs, he went to

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an influencer who's known as bus auntie.

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Who's just obsessed with buses.

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She, there's loads of content about buses.

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whoever running this is doing quite
a good job of picking opportunities

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that speak to the thing, the theme
of the day that they want talk about,

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which is the old fashioned grid thing.

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Reimagined for the new age.

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Ian: But when Sunak tried to do this,

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Helen: yes.

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Ian: So we're talking about fuel.

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He goes to a petrol station,
has clearly never filled a car

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before, didn't know how to do it.

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He goes to a restaurant, oh,
food, give it from people.

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I mean it, why didn't it work for
Sunak who had presumably people around

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him who said, you must go on social
media and it's working for Burnham.

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Helen: I'm going to say the opposite
of what you think I'm gonna say,

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which is that Burnham is, faker than
Sunak Rishi Sunak was, bless him, a

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little nerd who loved playing chess
and had an extraordinarily rich wife

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and, was terrible at disguising that.

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Andy Burnham is a man who has had an
entire adult life spent in politics,

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but is very, good at disguising that.

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Ian: question?

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So he's good at politics.

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Helen: Yeah.

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And the same way that Tony Blair was,
he's very good at faking authenticity.

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and I, that sounds incredibly pejorative,
but it's a very useful, like he's,

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approaching it as a profession and
his profession is playing the Prime

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Minister on telly essentially.

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And that's hopefully you also
are the actual prime Minister.

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Yes.

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That's the bit We'll have to
wait and see whether thats true.

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11-MIX-260727_1418: is

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Andy: there is a, heaven forbid another
war breaks out, is Bernard going to be

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doing a fun thing from a cockpit saying,
we're about to launch our first missiles.

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what, how does  this attitude of doing
social media play into big, serious

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policy stuff, I suppose is the question.

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Helen: You say that, Iran has been
putting out incredibly good inferiorly,

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antisemitic bangers in order as
part of its propaganda effort.

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Yes.

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I think there is mostly

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Ian: involving Lego.

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Helen: Yeah, but this, was this like you,
your government's run by a paedophile.

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They want you to die for
Israel is one of the refrains.

241
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and this, yeah.

242
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Okay.

243
00:08:43,578 --> 00:08:44,268
strong messaging, but

244
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Adam: we're not advising
this Randy, just to check,

245
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Helen: are we, just to be
clear on Burnham, tone it down.

246
00:08:49,248 --> 00:08:51,468
But the point about that is that they
have acknowledged that this is where

247
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Iranians will be getting their news.

248
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This is where Americans will
getting in the news about Iran.

249
00:08:55,578 --> 00:08:59,988
So instead of the supreme leader granting
an interview to CNN, they get some 25

250
00:08:59,988 --> 00:09:04,308
year olds in a bunker and they have to
tear on to make Lego videos using ar

251
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Ian: I'm not sure the supreme leader at
the moment would give very good interview.

252
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True.

253
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I'm just saying, he has some problems.

254
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Helen: Yes, it's true.

255
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But in the same way that they've decided,
that the, traditional sit down political

256
00:09:15,618 --> 00:09:18,558
interview reaches people who already
carry a huge amount about politics.

257
00:09:18,858 --> 00:09:22,068
So Andy Burner was also on, he did
his big first set piece interview

258
00:09:22,068 --> 00:09:23,658
with Laura Kosberg on the BBC.

259
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That's for the village.

260
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That's for people in, the
third sector who follow it.

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00:09:28,248 --> 00:09:30,558
Adam: But one thing I think is really
interesting with that is they followed

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the policy with that as well, because
it wasn't on the whole interview I

263
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think is going out on Monday night.

264
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so it was, after we were recording this,
but there was an extract, I think on the

265
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Laura Kosberg show yesterday, on Sunday.

266
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Yeah.

267
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Dribs and drabs of that have been
coming out like little packaged

268
00:09:42,948 --> 00:09:45,858
up kind of social media pieces for
several days now of junior Andy

269
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Burnham on this, Andy Burnham on that.

270
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So there is obviously
a kind of real tactic.

271
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As concentration spans, I
suppose as well, isn't it?

272
00:09:51,208 --> 00:09:53,458
One of these things might catch
someone's eye when they're not

273
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necessarily gonna sit and watch a full
20 minute, half an hour interview,

274
00:09:56,488 --> 00:09:58,138
Ian: And she did behind the scenes.

275
00:09:58,318 --> 00:10:01,258
So there was a lot of her walking
about looking at the building

276
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and seeing who else is in there
and they shot it backwards.

277
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So he and his wife walked into number 10.

278
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So you hadn't seen for even that
seemed to be calculatedly different.

279
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Adam: Yeah,

280
00:10:11,008 --> 00:10:13,498
Helen: This is a human being
who exists is the message of

281
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quite a lot of this content.

282
00:10:14,848 --> 00:10:15,628
And you're exactly right.

283
00:10:15,628 --> 00:10:17,458
People talk now about
the clipping economy.

284
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Most podcasts, even TV
shows, they exist as clips.

285
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they exist as 90 seconds on social media.

286
00:10:23,578 --> 00:10:27,148
And he has, or his team have fully
embraced that this is just a new

287
00:10:27,148 --> 00:10:30,988
media environment now, which again,
we can have a discussion about.

288
00:10:31,608 --> 00:10:34,318
I looking at those first week's
policies, I like the declaration of

289
00:10:34,318 --> 00:10:37,288
intent, but it was essentially, I'm
going to spend loads and loads of

290
00:10:37,288 --> 00:10:39,478
money that I definitely have promise.

291
00:10:39,478 --> 00:10:39,958
Absolutely.

292
00:10:39,958 --> 00:10:41,008
100% I do.

293
00:10:41,308 --> 00:10:44,548
And I think your point is exactly
right, which is when he runs into his

294
00:10:44,548 --> 00:10:47,668
first analogy of the winter fuel tax.

295
00:10:48,568 --> 00:10:52,978
Or as you say, something that happens
horr or one, a foreign, incursion or a

296
00:10:52,978 --> 00:10:57,298
terror attack, or one of his ministers is
caught with their hand in the till, then

297
00:10:57,298 --> 00:11:01,738
suddenly happy, cheery let's have be on
tambourine is going to feel a little bit

298
00:11:02,158 --> 00:11:04,018
like, a little bit annoying at that point.

299
00:11:04,148 --> 00:11:07,028
Adam: what you were saying about coming
over authentically, even if that is

300
00:11:07,028 --> 00:11:10,007
a political thing, Do you remember
when Rich Sunna was asked whether

301
00:11:10,007 --> 00:11:11,417
he preferred white or brown bread?

302
00:11:11,747 --> 00:11:13,997
And his reply to that one is an example
of what you're saying was, we have

303
00:11:13,997 --> 00:11:17,147
all sorts of different bread in my
house, which is immediately an elitist.

304
00:11:17,267 --> 00:11:17,987
Oh, you're a sourdough.

305
00:11:18,077 --> 00:11:18,677
Oh, you've got everything.

306
00:11:19,787 --> 00:11:20,807
Who's doing your shopping for?

307
00:11:20,957 --> 00:11:21,167
Andy: That was,

308
00:11:21,167 --> 00:11:22,577
Adam: and the other one was
Gordon Brown and Biscuits.

309
00:11:22,577 --> 00:11:24,647
Do you remember Gordon Brown and the
biscuits when he went on Mumsnet,

310
00:11:24,647 --> 00:11:26,957
which again was one of these things
that governments do periodically

311
00:11:26,957 --> 00:11:29,087
where they say, we're gonna bypass
the lobby, we're not gonna do that

312
00:11:29,087 --> 00:11:30,377
mainstream colour political coverage.

313
00:11:30,552 --> 00:11:33,432
He went on Mumsnet and was supposedly
asked about what his favourite sort

314
00:11:33,432 --> 00:11:36,882
of biscuit was actually, because this
is so long ago and before this kind of

315
00:11:36,882 --> 00:11:39,912
approach, the mums net moderator looked
at that question and said, that's silly.

316
00:11:39,912 --> 00:11:41,382
We're not even gonna
present him with that one.

317
00:11:41,532 --> 00:11:44,202
But it became an absolute part of it that
he was the prime minister who couldn't

318
00:11:44,202 --> 00:11:45,942
even say what sort of biscuit he liked.

319
00:11:45,942 --> 00:11:46,002
Yeah.

320
00:11:46,812 --> 00:11:48,102
and that became a sort of defining thing.

321
00:11:48,102 --> 00:11:49,572
So it's very, dangerous.

322
00:11:50,442 --> 00:11:53,388
people actually being themselves
like Rishi Sunak was, can.

323
00:11:53,963 --> 00:11:54,413
Very badly.

324
00:11:54,413 --> 00:11:54,683
The jam joke

325
00:11:54,683 --> 00:11:55,043
Andy: is just,

326
00:11:55,853 --> 00:11:57,503
Adam: just sitting there, isn't it?

327
00:11:57,563 --> 00:12:00,053
I can see why they do
slightly avoid those things.

328
00:12:00,058 --> 00:12:00,348
Andy: Yeah.

329
00:12:00,353 --> 00:12:00,743
Yeah.

330
00:12:00,743 --> 00:12:04,163
I mean the, the funny thing is during
the Makerfield by-election, Andy Burnham

331
00:12:04,163 --> 00:12:07,343
did, he went on a Reddit and he did the
format, which is called Ask Me Anything.

332
00:12:07,935 --> 00:12:11,445
Which is now very much the opposite of
what he's doing with the press in general.

333
00:12:11,445 --> 00:12:12,495
Helen: But that's interesting too.

334
00:12:12,495 --> 00:12:15,315
So there was a really good piece in the
New York Times by David Pluff, who was

335
00:12:15,315 --> 00:12:19,125
Kamala Harris's campaign strategiser
He's a former, Obama strategist.

336
00:12:19,365 --> 00:12:21,705
And he said basically, you need to,
if you're a politician, think of

337
00:12:21,705 --> 00:12:23,115
yourself as a content creator now.

338
00:12:23,175 --> 00:12:26,295
Like you are con your con like
permanent campaign, create content.

339
00:12:26,625 --> 00:12:29,385
And one of the things he said that
was, I thought was really new was

340
00:12:29,385 --> 00:12:32,925
that politicians and everyone else
used to optimise for search engines.

341
00:12:33,105 --> 00:12:34,515
search is basically dead, right?

342
00:12:34,515 --> 00:12:37,275
Google search is now giving
you an Google answers panel.

343
00:12:37,545 --> 00:12:42,315
Now you have to optimise yourself for
answer engine IE large language models.

344
00:12:42,885 --> 00:12:46,995
So Reddit for example, signed a
deal with I think ai, one of the

345
00:12:46,995 --> 00:12:50,535
AI companies to licence all their
content to be used as training data.

346
00:12:50,985 --> 00:12:54,375
So what Andy Burnham has done by
giving that Reddit ask me anything

347
00:12:54,495 --> 00:12:58,275
is when you go in and you ask any
of your, one of your search engines,

348
00:12:58,455 --> 00:13:02,925
which are now essentially AI engines,
what is Andy Burnham's bus policy?

349
00:13:03,225 --> 00:13:05,955
One of the sources it will
draw on is him giving you his

350
00:13:05,955 --> 00:13:07,635
version of what the bus Yeah.

351
00:13:08,205 --> 00:13:08,295
Andy: What

352
00:13:08,295 --> 00:13:09,285
Helen: the bus policy is.

353
00:13:09,735 --> 00:13:13,395
And that's why going on YouTube, which
again, all of YouTube transcripts are

354
00:13:13,395 --> 00:13:15,765
used to train ais, Is really important.

355
00:13:15,985 --> 00:13:17,924
it was quite, it was very policy focused.

356
00:13:18,104 --> 00:13:21,824
it was a hell of a lot more substantive
an interview than you'd get from

357
00:13:21,824 --> 00:13:24,374
the lobby who would be asked to by
their news desk to go and go like,

358
00:13:24,584 --> 00:13:25,964
but you hate Angela Rayna, don't you?

359
00:13:26,114 --> 00:13:26,924
Or whatever it might be.

360
00:13:27,094 --> 00:13:30,614
Ian: that seems to be even more of an
argument to, , having a traditional

361
00:13:30,614 --> 00:13:35,384
group of people who are licenced to
ask questions that you get a direct

362
00:13:35,384 --> 00:13:37,234
and therefore, , real answer to

363
00:13:37,264 --> 00:13:38,111
Andy: some sort of gatekeepers.

364
00:13:38,164 --> 00:13:40,144
You're saying some gatekeeper
method might be useful.

365
00:13:40,932 --> 00:13:43,212
Helen: say something that will get me
in trouble with lots of my very dear

366
00:13:43,212 --> 00:13:45,942
friends who are lobby correspondents
who I think do a really hard job.

367
00:13:45,942 --> 00:13:47,082
It's an un in many ways.

368
00:13:47,352 --> 00:13:50,382
if, unless you're a polled and you are
waning around on television all the

369
00:13:50,382 --> 00:13:52,872
time, it's quite a hard and unglamorous
job that involves a lot of nights away

370
00:13:52,872 --> 00:13:57,762
from home, traipsing around to ask hard
questions in the rain of, politicians.

371
00:13:58,152 --> 00:14:01,872
However, it has not been a job that
has broken stories about politicians.

372
00:14:01,872 --> 00:14:05,852
If you can think about all the
resignations that we've had, or stories

373
00:14:05,852 --> 00:14:07,052
that have got politicians in trouble.

374
00:14:07,052 --> 00:14:09,302
Most of 'em have come
from outside the lobby.

375
00:14:09,812 --> 00:14:13,862
So I'm not fully won over on the view
that actually this will be terrible

376
00:14:13,862 --> 00:14:15,182
for democratic accountability.

377
00:14:15,182 --> 00:14:18,632
Because actually, if you think about
Nigel Farage's finances, for example,

378
00:14:18,632 --> 00:14:23,582
that was Gabriel Pogrond in the Sunday
Times Insights team, the, the lobby

379
00:14:23,822 --> 00:14:27,452
have a really important function,
which is asking immediate questions.

380
00:14:27,872 --> 00:14:30,812
and keeping on the ball with stuff
and following things day to day.

381
00:14:31,082 --> 00:14:32,972
They don't really have the
time and breathing space to

382
00:14:32,972 --> 00:14:34,352
do those investigative pieces.

383
00:14:34,682 --> 00:14:37,832
Adam: Got to say though, they
haven't excelled themselves

384
00:14:37,862 --> 00:14:39,002
in recent weeks, have they?

385
00:14:39,242 --> 00:14:42,482
I'm thinking back to, the who's
gonna be chancellor and who's

386
00:14:42,482 --> 00:14:44,942
gonna get what position in,
in, in Andy Burnham's cabinet.

387
00:14:45,932 --> 00:14:47,732
do you remember it was gonna
be Ed Miller abandon, then it

388
00:14:47,732 --> 00:14:48,872
was gonna be Shabana Mahmud.

389
00:14:48,962 --> 00:14:49,092
Do you want

390
00:14:49,092 --> 00:14:49,412
Andy: Shabana?

391
00:14:49,712 --> 00:14:50,972
I read it in the FT and I haven't bothered

392
00:14:50,972 --> 00:14:51,032
Adam: it.

393
00:14:51,032 --> 00:14:51,302
Checking.

394
00:14:51,302 --> 00:14:51,602
Absolutely.

395
00:14:51,602 --> 00:14:51,992
Certainly.

396
00:14:52,292 --> 00:14:52,417
I,

397
00:14:52,502 --> 00:14:54,362
Andy: I, I haven't checked
since, that story came out.

398
00:14:54,362 --> 00:14:55,202
So How's she doing?

399
00:14:56,047 --> 00:14:56,792
Adam: She's doing brilliantly.

400
00:14:56,792 --> 00:14:57,872
She's still home secretary.

401
00:14:58,352 --> 00:15:01,352
we literally, we got to the point where
we had, John Reul writing an independent,

402
00:15:01,472 --> 00:15:04,772
what the Choice of Shabana Mood tells
us about the new PM two days before

403
00:15:04,832 --> 00:15:08,372
Shabana mood wasn't made chancellor And
that was after a lot of think pieces

404
00:15:08,492 --> 00:15:10,982
saying that, ed Milliband was definitely
gonna be the chancellor as well.

405
00:15:11,132 --> 00:15:13,712
Do you remember David Milliband
was gonna come back and be a

406
00:15:13,712 --> 00:15:14,852
foreign secretary in the Lords?

407
00:15:14,852 --> 00:15:17,012
That was a, that was a story broke
and I think originally been the

408
00:15:17,012 --> 00:15:20,402
Eye paper by Caroline Wheeler
who followed up a week later.

409
00:15:20,402 --> 00:15:22,232
Even more amazingly guess
who else was coming back?

410
00:15:22,442 --> 00:15:25,742
Ed Balls back on the Red benches
and possibly going into the cabinet.

411
00:15:26,672 --> 00:15:29,432
it felt a bit like people
sticking pins in randomly.

412
00:15:29,523 --> 00:15:30,723
Andy: can I check something about this?

413
00:15:30,723 --> 00:15:34,273
Because the first paper to
break the Shaban Mahmud will be

414
00:15:34,273 --> 00:15:35,713
Chancellor's story was the ft.

415
00:15:36,103 --> 00:15:40,093
And I think I, I think they had
three sources all, relatively

416
00:15:40,153 --> 00:15:42,583
close to place telling them this
is definitely going to happen.

417
00:15:43,093 --> 00:15:47,443
Ian: But those sources were not people
who knew anything, which is, one of

418
00:15:47,443 --> 00:15:49,123
the keys I've found with sources.

419
00:15:49,279 --> 00:15:51,019
Adam: on that story about Ed
Bulls I just mentioned in terms of

420
00:15:51,019 --> 00:15:55,039
sourcing, the, the exact quote he
had was a source said, I haven't

421
00:15:55,039 --> 00:15:56,419
heard anything about Ed coming back.

422
00:15:57,237 --> 00:15:57,627
Andy: Okay,

423
00:15:58,287 --> 00:15:58,497
Helen: so I

424
00:15:59,067 --> 00:16:00,252
Adam: make what you with of that one.

425
00:16:00,422 --> 00:16:02,637
Helen: There are a couple of things
going on there though, which just

426
00:16:02,637 --> 00:16:04,047
speaks to how the lobby works.

427
00:16:04,047 --> 00:16:05,637
So one of those is the flying a kite.

428
00:16:05,667 --> 00:16:08,527
It may be at some point that somebody
thought, should we have Shabana Mahmood

429
00:16:08,667 --> 00:16:11,607
or Ed Milliband And they thought,
let's see whether or not business

430
00:16:11,607 --> 00:16:14,937
leaders vomit and throw you, like
cry when we say Ed Milliband's name.

431
00:16:15,147 --> 00:16:16,122
And then they go, okay, they do.

432
00:16:16,122 --> 00:16:21,717
So you get used, I think to,
or there is this concept of the

433
00:16:21,717 --> 00:16:24,027
kind of the beat sweetener, have
you heard this phrase before?

434
00:16:24,177 --> 00:16:24,237
Yeah.

435
00:16:24,357 --> 00:16:27,297
Which is the idea that somebody
wants something from you, so you

436
00:16:27,297 --> 00:16:28,677
say something nice about them.

437
00:16:29,667 --> 00:16:32,607
so you remember for a long time if you
used to hear a lot of things about how

438
00:16:32,817 --> 00:16:36,867
amazingly insightful Michael Gove was, and
I dunno if it was entirely unrelated to

439
00:16:36,867 --> 00:16:39,867
the fact that Michael Gove was very happy
to take journalists phone calls, right?

440
00:16:40,107 --> 00:16:42,537
So a lot of the time when people are
really lovely about Donald Trump,

441
00:16:42,537 --> 00:16:46,017
it's also because Donald, they want
Donald Trump, who let's be honest,

442
00:16:46,017 --> 00:16:48,927
is a man who responds to flattery
to pick up the phone to them, right?

443
00:16:49,167 --> 00:16:52,407
So that one of the things that I
think is difficult people outside

444
00:16:52,407 --> 00:16:56,157
the lobby to understand is how much
of that is a transactional business

445
00:16:56,157 --> 00:16:58,167
and down payments on future stories.

446
00:16:58,527 --> 00:17:02,607
And it can be very easy to feel
that's working against the interest

447
00:17:02,607 --> 00:17:05,247
of readers because there's all this
stuff happening in the background

448
00:17:05,307 --> 00:17:06,507
that you don't know about.

449
00:17:06,897 --> 00:17:08,637
Adam: When your job
relies entirely on access.

450
00:17:09,387 --> 00:17:09,957
it's very useful.

451
00:17:09,957 --> 00:17:12,327
But it's, as you say, it's a
two-edged sword as well, isn't it?

452
00:17:12,327 --> 00:17:14,877
Because you are, you end up
being compromised on what you,

453
00:17:15,267 --> 00:17:17,367
what you can write, Because of
the favours you owe to people.

454
00:17:17,372 --> 00:17:22,112
Ian: and we have had a run of governments
whose cabinets are fantastically good

455
00:17:22,292 --> 00:17:27,242
at, leaking stories about themselves,
which appear as friends of Yeah.

456
00:17:27,722 --> 00:17:32,102
X say, not only is he utterly brilliant,
he's gonna be chancellor and the

457
00:17:32,102 --> 00:17:34,982
story has one source, which is the
person who wants to be chancellor.

458
00:17:35,012 --> 00:17:35,282
Yes.

459
00:17:36,572 --> 00:17:39,062
Helen: which is they have, which I
wonder about that David Milliband story.

460
00:17:39,062 --> 00:17:41,282
I wondered if David Milliband
thought David Milliband should

461
00:17:41,282 --> 00:17:42,377
come back as foreign equity.

462
00:17:42,752 --> 00:17:44,642
I don't, I have to say, I
have no insight into that.

463
00:17:44,852 --> 00:17:45,002
I

464
00:17:45,002 --> 00:17:47,672
Adam: mean, so the thing you also
know that if David Milliband is

465
00:17:47,672 --> 00:17:49,982
gonna nailed on for a job, then
it's gonna go to Ed instead.

466
00:17:50,042 --> 00:17:53,762
And as it happened, Milliband is now
foreign secretary, so that's two down.

467
00:17:53,882 --> 00:17:54,182
Can we,

468
00:17:54,362 --> 00:17:57,632
Helen: you'll hear people inside the
lobby say quite notoriously, if there is

469
00:17:57,632 --> 00:18:01,712
a story from such and such person, it will
go to such and such a journalist, Certain

470
00:18:01,712 --> 00:18:05,072
people are very plugged into certain
And then sometimes they go on and write

471
00:18:05,072 --> 00:18:06,692
their biographies or whatever it might.

472
00:18:07,232 --> 00:18:07,382
Might be.

473
00:18:08,542 --> 00:18:10,772
I think you, one of the things I
think people would be quite shocked

474
00:18:10,772 --> 00:18:14,822
by a story, that we reported at the
time was that at one point the Prime

475
00:18:14,822 --> 00:18:17,882
Minister spokesman in Boris Johnson
lied to the lobby about party Gate

476
00:18:18,122 --> 00:18:19,682
just lied flat out to their faces.

477
00:18:19,952 --> 00:18:22,292
And when he left, they
got him a leaving gift.

478
00:18:23,708 --> 00:18:28,178
That's quite, that's you bit
chummy bit I a bit chummy.

479
00:18:28,508 --> 00:18:31,478
they had the White House Correspondents
dinner at the weekend, and I just,

480
00:18:31,478 --> 00:18:34,478
it's one of those things that
I'm just, I am, the joy killer.

481
00:18:34,478 --> 00:18:35,588
I am the fun sponge.

482
00:18:35,948 --> 00:18:39,038
But I just think it's really weird
for him, Donald Trump, to be in the

483
00:18:39,038 --> 00:18:42,068
middle of suing journalists, trying
to supoenia their phone records.

484
00:18:42,488 --> 00:18:45,638
And then, for lots of people to
making a good living every night

485
00:18:45,638 --> 00:18:48,698
going on TV and saying, this
guy's trying to destroy democracy.

486
00:18:48,908 --> 00:18:53,226
And then it's oh, but the Hilton,
you say, oh, call Moss bros.

487
00:18:53,318 --> 00:18:55,538
Ian: I thought he might arrest
everyone at the end of the dinner.

488
00:18:55,538 --> 00:18:56,078
Helen: Very funny.

489
00:18:56,858 --> 00:18:59,558
Ian: an ice team just come
in and tape them all out and

490
00:18:59,558 --> 00:19:01,028
everyone goes, fair enough.

491
00:19:01,118 --> 00:19:01,928
Helen: Oh, he's such a car.

492
00:19:01,958 --> 00:19:02,708
Oh, he says what?

493
00:19:02,708 --> 00:19:03,233
He blink, he's to laugh,

494
00:19:03,233 --> 00:19:03,513
Ian: isn't he?

495
00:19:03,728 --> 00:19:05,648
Andy: Can I make two
points tying this together?

496
00:19:05,678 --> 00:19:05,918
Helen: Yeah.

497
00:19:06,068 --> 00:19:09,128
Andy: One is that it was very funny
seeing an operation from the White House

498
00:19:09,128 --> 00:19:12,428
saying, don't you dare make Ed Milliband
Chancellor of the Exchequer only for him

499
00:19:12,428 --> 00:19:13,988
to be then be made foreign secretary.

500
00:19:14,138 --> 00:19:14,318
Adam: Yep.

501
00:19:14,468 --> 00:19:14,858
Andy: Did think that was.

502
00:19:15,033 --> 00:19:20,378
Secondly, we do know who's behind us in a
way, and it ties the whole thing together

503
00:19:20,378 --> 00:19:23,948
in another way, which is that the woman
behind this is called Abby Tomlinson.

504
00:19:24,158 --> 00:19:27,218
And if you don't remember her
name, she was at the age of 17

505
00:19:27,428 --> 00:19:30,548
behind the Millifandom of 2015.

506
00:19:30,938 --> 00:19:34,028
She has since worked for K Starman, which
probably isn't on the CV in a big way,

507
00:19:34,388 --> 00:19:37,508
but she's now back in working for Burnham,
doing a lot of his social media stuff.

508
00:19:37,508 --> 00:19:40,358
Helen: I remember she photoshopped Ed
Miller Milliband into a flower crown.

509
00:19:40,418 --> 00:19:41,648
Do you remember this as a concept?

510
00:19:41,793 --> 00:19:42,553
Andy: I don't recall that.

511
00:19:43,208 --> 00:19:45,518
Helen: she started off with a
hodge, let's make Ed Milliband

512
00:19:45,518 --> 00:19:47,168
like effortlessly cool and sexy.

513
00:19:47,228 --> 00:19:47,348
Yep.

514
00:19:47,528 --> 00:19:49,988
So after that, Andy Burnham is a layup.

515
00:19:49,988 --> 00:19:50,318
I think

516
00:19:50,318 --> 00:19:52,568
Adam: someone please show that
picture to Donald Trump now and

517
00:19:52,568 --> 00:19:54,668
see what he thinks about Secretary.

518
00:19:54,848 --> 00:19:56,738
Can I just keep, I feel like
I've been really, mean about

519
00:19:56,738 --> 00:19:57,458
some of my fellow journalists.

520
00:19:57,458 --> 00:20:00,348
So there 2 bits of credit to give to
people on the, the predictions of who

521
00:20:00,348 --> 00:20:01,788
was gonna be in Andy, Burnham's cabinet.

522
00:20:01,788 --> 00:20:03,685
Dan Hodges, who I know Helen
is one of your favourite.

523
00:20:03,888 --> 00:20:03,948
Yeah.

524
00:20:04,668 --> 00:20:07,578
he, actually specified
on, Sunday the 17th.

525
00:20:07,578 --> 00:20:12,733
So literally the day before, Mahmood
was appointed, or not appointed, he

526
00:20:12,733 --> 00:20:15,823
said, that, the reason Ed Milliband
was no longer going to be chancellor

527
00:20:16,003 --> 00:20:19,393
was because, , Andy Burnham had decided
he had a woman problem and he needed a

528
00:20:19,393 --> 00:20:21,193
woman in the top job in the government.

529
00:20:21,283 --> 00:20:24,103
So it went to that well known
woman, John Healy the next morning.

530
00:20:24,763 --> 00:20:28,663
and actually to be fair to them, the
only people, it's one single mention

531
00:20:28,873 --> 00:20:32,083
of the name Healy in connection with
the Chancellorship, was in the Daily

532
00:20:32,083 --> 00:20:33,073
Mail to give them their credit.

533
00:20:33,643 --> 00:20:37,153
but unfortunately it was, Dennis Healy,
and they were saying that Andy Burnham

534
00:20:37,153 --> 00:20:38,851
was going to drag us back to the 1970s.

535
00:20:39,253 --> 00:20:39,523
So

536
00:20:39,926 --> 00:20:43,526
Ian: Can I just say on the predictions
front, had anyone been cynical enough to

537
00:20:43,526 --> 00:20:48,266
say all the jobs will go to people who
are instrumental in getting rid of care?

538
00:20:48,866 --> 00:20:51,446
, including Lordships for Unlikely People.

539
00:20:51,546 --> 00:20:54,920
, straightforward rewards for people
who resigned, their job and then

540
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,150
came straight back in again.

541
00:20:56,510 --> 00:21:00,440
The very cynical view of how this would
be carved up would've been better.

542
00:21:01,010 --> 00:21:03,470
Helen: That's the second thing
I'm gonna put down in my building

543
00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:04,340
Up Trouble from the Future.

544
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:07,760
Much as we immediately poured a big
bottle of Bucket of Sick on Keir Starmer

545
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,700
the instant that he got in by saying
the freebie stuff would haunt him.

546
00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:15,410
The unfunded pledges is one and the
kind of revenge tour of the star rights.

547
00:21:15,831 --> 00:21:17,660
Because those people are
all still in parliament.

548
00:21:18,050 --> 00:21:21,620
And actually, once everybody's done
the raft of stories about Andy,

549
00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:25,160
the TikTok King, then there's gonna
be a big hunt on for disgruntled

550
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,840
people of whom there are many,

551
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:27,530
Adam: there already has been.

552
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,530
it was less than 24 hours before Darren
Jones, who instantly was mooted as a

553
00:21:30,530 --> 00:21:35,180
possible chancellor by the Independent,
came back and, got the, knife in saying

554
00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:39,620
that, the, it was the, wasn't, it was
gonna be paid for by the digital id.

555
00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:43,250
So that was unfunded, which was a real
kind of like early out of the doors.

556
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:44,690
get, the knife in Andy's bag.

557
00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:44,750
Yeah.

558
00:21:44,750 --> 00:21:45,200
Andy: Jokes on you.

559
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,610
We didn't know how we were
gonna pay for that either.

560
00:21:46,820 --> 00:21:47,210
Yeah.

561
00:21:47,781 --> 00:21:49,461
Helen: I have one more
final quiz question.

562
00:21:49,461 --> 00:21:49,551
Yes.

563
00:21:49,551 --> 00:21:52,161
Which is that one of the things
that he was asked, Andy Burnham

564
00:21:52,161 --> 00:21:56,301
was asked in his Reddit a MA what
his four favourite films are and

565
00:21:56,361 --> 00:21:56,751
Andy: Oh yeah.

566
00:21:56,991 --> 00:22:00,261
Helen: Can you make any stab at
what, what any of them might be?

567
00:22:00,266 --> 00:22:00,396
Andy: Kes.

568
00:22:03,285 --> 00:22:05,175
Helen: there is a theme that
runs through them actually.

569
00:22:05,175 --> 00:22:06,015
Would you like to hear what they are?

570
00:22:06,105 --> 00:22:06,255
Yeah.

571
00:22:06,315 --> 00:22:06,915
Any, okay.

572
00:22:07,125 --> 00:22:11,565
They are Goodfellas the big
short Brassed Off and Pride.

573
00:22:11,595 --> 00:22:11,835
Okay.

574
00:22:11,835 --> 00:22:14,805
So the themes of these films are, in my
view, The Big Short is bankers are Evil.

575
00:22:14,965 --> 00:22:18,075
Brassed Off is people from the South,
close the pits, IE Margaret Thatcher.

576
00:22:18,075 --> 00:22:20,715
Evil and Pride are, Tories are evil.

577
00:22:20,865 --> 00:22:21,105
Andy: Yep.

578
00:22:21,315 --> 00:22:24,255
Helen: And then Goodfellas are, I'd
like to put someone in the boot of a car

579
00:22:25,545 --> 00:22:27,045
and bury them in a, like an underpass.

580
00:22:27,135 --> 00:22:29,025
Andy: there'll be a very slick
video about it when it does happen.

581
00:22:29,055 --> 00:22:29,205
Yeah.

582
00:22:29,205 --> 00:22:32,455
Helen: And to where the council housing is
being built or where Andy Burn was from.

583
00:22:32,455 --> 00:22:33,585
That's gonna mean when he gets in trouble.

584
00:22:35,993 --> 00:22:37,613
Adam: Andy, I'm confused.

585
00:22:38,453 --> 00:22:41,437
policy announcement that I've seen
this week, I'm under the impression

586
00:22:41,437 --> 00:22:43,537
that we've reopened North Sea drilling.

587
00:22:44,377 --> 00:22:45,967
it's gung-ho drill, baby drill.

588
00:22:46,027 --> 00:22:46,087
Yeah.

589
00:22:46,387 --> 00:22:48,367
we're opening all, all
those oil fills up again.

590
00:22:48,577 --> 00:22:51,817
And that somehow Ed Milliband who
has been against this for many, years

591
00:22:51,817 --> 00:22:53,227
has not raised any objection at all.

592
00:22:53,497 --> 00:22:54,067
Am I right?

593
00:22:54,127 --> 00:22:54,457
Andy: Yep.

594
00:22:54,457 --> 00:22:55,747
It's gonna be Texas on Sea.

595
00:22:56,057 --> 00:22:56,867
frack baby Frack.

596
00:22:56,867 --> 00:22:57,317
No, it's

597
00:22:57,902 --> 00:22:58,322
Helen: Yeehaw.

598
00:22:58,662 --> 00:22:59,082
Andy: Yeehaw.

599
00:22:59,643 --> 00:23:01,053
it's a bit more complicated than that.

600
00:23:01,053 --> 00:23:05,913
So the basic thing to start with is the
conservatives were quite up for drilling

601
00:23:05,973 --> 00:23:08,823
labour, said in their 2024 manifesto.

602
00:23:09,033 --> 00:23:10,803
No more drilling is
needed in the North Sea.

603
00:23:10,803 --> 00:23:14,613
We think we've got, enough for the
slow decline 'cause we're gonna be

604
00:23:14,613 --> 00:23:15,963
moving to other sources of energy.

605
00:23:16,503 --> 00:23:18,813
they won Seems unfashionable
to mention it now.

606
00:23:18,813 --> 00:23:20,883
Quite a big majority with
that as a big policy.

607
00:23:22,143 --> 00:23:26,493
since the election, there has been
this big campaign, by lots of people.

608
00:23:26,673 --> 00:23:29,883
lots of fossil fuel lobbyists, both
paid and unpaid have been saying you

609
00:23:29,883 --> 00:23:31,233
gotta get the North Sea open again.

610
00:23:31,623 --> 00:23:34,743
But the idea that there's
gonna be a huge reversal at

611
00:23:34,743 --> 00:23:36,213
the moment seems very unlikely.

612
00:23:36,633 --> 00:23:39,993
Instead, what there is, is, a
campaign about, two particular

613
00:23:39,993 --> 00:23:42,133
fields called Rosebank and Jackdaw.

614
00:23:42,603 --> 00:23:44,343
Rosebank is oil, Jackdaw is gas,

615
00:23:44,403 --> 00:23:46,738
Adam: both of which sound like lovely
little retirement cottages, don't they?

616
00:23:46,808 --> 00:23:47,098
Andy: Yeah.

617
00:23:47,163 --> 00:23:48,123
They weren't for much longer.

618
00:23:50,493 --> 00:23:52,713
so those are the two fields
that are really in contention.

619
00:23:52,743 --> 00:23:56,583
And part of the reason for that
is that they had already received

620
00:23:56,853 --> 00:23:59,043
permission, before the election.

621
00:23:59,625 --> 00:24:03,435
Then when labour got in, they said,
we don't think we really need them.

622
00:24:03,555 --> 00:24:05,835
There was a legal challenge 'cause
they hadn't taken into account

623
00:24:05,835 --> 00:24:09,465
the emissions caused by actually
burning stuff as opposed to producing

624
00:24:09,465 --> 00:24:10,665
it, getting it outta the ground.

625
00:24:11,475 --> 00:24:13,665
So that, that's the main focus.

626
00:24:13,665 --> 00:24:15,855
And they've been under review.

627
00:24:15,945 --> 00:24:18,375
There's a way that they could say,
it's consistent with the manifesto.

628
00:24:18,450 --> 00:24:22,440
Ian: So is there not a quibble over
further development and development?

629
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:24,180
Andy: Yes, there is.

630
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:24,450
Yeah.

631
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:27,630
And it's quite, it's a bit angels
dancing on the head of a pin.

632
00:24:28,632 --> 00:24:31,770
I think it's likely that these
two are at least one of these

633
00:24:31,770 --> 00:24:33,090
two will happen in some way.

634
00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:37,230
Really more for political reasons than
because they provide big energy security

635
00:24:37,230 --> 00:24:38,580
or because they do anything for bills.

636
00:24:38,610 --> 00:24:40,020
'cause they, won't do anything for bills.

637
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:43,170
They might do a little bit for
energy security in extremists.

638
00:24:43,470 --> 00:24:46,870
The argument in favour of them is
that, , they lower emissions a little

639
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:51,370
bit because the, the production methods
here are a bit cleaner, maybe 15% lower.

640
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:52,345
So that's, not better.

641
00:24:52,345 --> 00:24:52,585
That

642
00:24:52,585 --> 00:24:53,110
Ian: sounds good, doesn't it?

643
00:24:53,170 --> 00:24:53,470
Andy: Yeah.

644
00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:57,760
And also we're going to need oil
and gas for, some decades to come.

645
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:58,330
It is true.

646
00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:00,100
even if it is declining.

647
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,420
So that's the argument for And
probably to defang the issue, there'll

648
00:25:04,420 --> 00:25:05,590
be some kind of movement on it.

649
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:08,560
The new Energy secretary is called
Miatta Fahnbulleh She's already

650
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,040
been up to Aberdeen to make a video
saying, we are transitioning, but

651
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,240
we'll still do a bit of this stuff.

652
00:25:13,690 --> 00:25:15,340
Adam: because a lot of it's to do
with employment in the northeast

653
00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:16,270
of Scotland as well, isn't it?

654
00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:18,670
it's what, what's going on up there?

655
00:25:18,670 --> 00:25:19,060
That's,

656
00:25:19,180 --> 00:25:21,670
Andy: it is, I'm gonna say
something that is probably a bit

657
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:23,410
controversial to some people.

658
00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:28,180
I think North Sea Oil and Gas has taken
on a significance that is disproportionate

659
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:29,800
to the actual effect of it.

660
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:30,955
much in the way

661
00:25:30,955 --> 00:25:33,050
Helen: that it's same thing as the
steel works, or actually a bit to

662
00:25:33,050 --> 00:25:35,480
the defence industry are inextricably
linked with the fact that those

663
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:36,800
are jobs in Barrow in Furness

664
00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:39,470
Andy: It's it is similar
to fishing during Brexit.

665
00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:43,430
Which became a huge flashpoint for,
and that was a lot about jobs as

666
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:44,990
well, the actual number of new jobs.

667
00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:46,990
Even the owner of the field
has said, I think that Jackdaw

668
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:48,770
all produced 300 new jobs.

669
00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:49,670
It's not massive.

670
00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:52,475
Ian: well at the moment it's quite a lot.

671
00:25:53,555 --> 00:25:53,955
Helen: Yeah, that's

672
00:25:53,955 --> 00:25:54,035
Andy: true.

673
00:25:54,215 --> 00:25:57,380
Helen: If you look at the fact the
video games sector employs thousands

674
00:25:57,470 --> 00:25:59,780
of, people in Britain, you never hear,
you certainly don't hear about it

675
00:25:59,780 --> 00:26:03,320
from Lisa Nandy who's been reappointed
culturally ordinary personal beef

676
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,670
of mine that we can settle later.

677
00:26:04,790 --> 00:26:05,030
Andy: Yeah.

678
00:26:05,472 --> 00:26:08,682
so you've got this weird situation
where lots of people acknowledge

679
00:26:08,682 --> 00:26:09,882
we do need to get off this stuff.

680
00:26:09,912 --> 00:26:13,302
But even people like say Greg Jackson
of Octopus Energy, who is not a Drill

681
00:26:13,302 --> 00:26:17,712
baby drill guy, is saying, if we're
gonna be using it, we may as well

682
00:26:17,712 --> 00:26:20,352
use the stuff that's here rather
than lu it halfway around the world.

683
00:26:21,282 --> 00:26:23,712
it's seen as a slightly
pragmatic thing to do.

684
00:26:23,862 --> 00:26:26,502
It's quite hard to square
with the fact that, half of

685
00:26:26,682 --> 00:26:27,972
France and Spain are on fire.

686
00:26:28,302 --> 00:26:29,142
And increasingly

687
00:26:29,142 --> 00:26:30,972
Ian: that is quite big
news this week, isn't

688
00:26:30,972 --> 00:26:31,032
Andy: it?

689
00:26:31,032 --> 00:26:31,272
Yeah.

690
00:26:31,272 --> 00:26:34,002
And increasingly bits of the north
of England and Scotland are on fire.

691
00:26:34,002 --> 00:26:34,062
Yeah.

692
00:26:34,272 --> 00:26:36,372
the phrase, UK wildfire
season is not a good one.

693
00:26:36,372 --> 00:26:39,732
And these wildfires and heat
waves are caused and exacerbated

694
00:26:39,732 --> 00:26:40,902
massively by fossil fuels.

695
00:26:40,992 --> 00:26:45,162
So it is quite brain breaking to
say, oh, actually it's pragmatic

696
00:26:45,162 --> 00:26:46,062
to have this new drilling.

697
00:26:46,212 --> 00:26:46,782
I think.

698
00:26:47,252 --> 00:26:51,002
The arguments for and against are
relatively finely balanced, given

699
00:26:51,002 --> 00:26:53,549
that we haven't got rid of all
the petrol cars or gas boilers.

700
00:26:53,939 --> 00:26:57,029
People are still buying them because
they don't feel secure enough to go

701
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:58,589
electric or get a heat pump or whatever.

702
00:26:59,189 --> 00:27:01,829
So you are going to have
some kind of supply.

703
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:03,929
So that's the argument in a nutshell.

704
00:27:03,959 --> 00:27:06,419
Helen: Do you think that this has
been influenced by Trump and the

705
00:27:06,419 --> 00:27:09,719
war in Iran and the strait of whole
Mo or was it all happening before

706
00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:11,189
Andy: it was all happening before?

707
00:27:11,609 --> 00:27:14,279
Tony Blair had already made
about 15 interventions on it well

708
00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:15,779
before the strait of whole MO was.

709
00:27:15,929 --> 00:27:16,169
Helen: Yeah,

710
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:17,159
Andy: okay.

711
00:27:17,159 --> 00:27:18,389
A media darling as it is now.

712
00:27:18,989 --> 00:27:21,269
, but there's no question that
the pressure helps, I think.

713
00:27:21,449 --> 00:27:21,629
Is

714
00:27:21,629 --> 00:27:26,759
Ian: this an, an example of Burnham
being quite capable in terms of politics

715
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,521
is, to realise perhaps I won't make,
ed Milliband either chancellor or

716
00:27:32,521 --> 00:27:37,531
leave him in energy because whatever
else happens people associate him with

717
00:27:37,921 --> 00:27:39,391
something going wrong with energy.

718
00:27:39,511 --> 00:27:39,871
Andy: Yeah.

719
00:27:39,871 --> 00:27:45,091
People think of it as hair shirtism and
people think it's incredibly restrictive.

720
00:27:45,194 --> 00:27:49,244
what I find is that I don't think they
help the debate as in Burnham will

721
00:27:49,244 --> 00:27:52,814
probably lose plenty of support to his
left if he grants either of these from

722
00:27:52,814 --> 00:27:54,614
people who don't want new drilling.

723
00:27:55,304 --> 00:27:59,024
There has not been a, an equivalent
national debate about the, main

724
00:27:59,024 --> 00:28:03,434
opportunity you have, which is
electrifying going electric in

725
00:28:03,434 --> 00:28:05,804
a power supply, going electric
in cars and home heating.

726
00:28:05,984 --> 00:28:08,654
Those are the things that really
will make a much bigger difference.

727
00:28:09,104 --> 00:28:11,594
And I think if Burnham answered
this, he will probably have to say

728
00:28:11,594 --> 00:28:14,174
something along the lines of, and by
the way, we are also going to get your

729
00:28:14,174 --> 00:28:18,044
electricity bills down so that you can
afford this stuff much more easily.

730
00:28:18,404 --> 00:28:21,254
Those are the things that are really
gonna cut emissions, I would hope

731
00:28:21,254 --> 00:28:22,364
there will be some argument about that.

732
00:28:22,394 --> 00:28:22,634
But,

733
00:28:23,084 --> 00:28:26,954
Ian: by the end of September, if we have
had not only a, a European wildfire,

734
00:28:27,764 --> 00:28:32,384
outbreak on, the scale we haven't seen
before, plus even more of a heat wave,

735
00:28:32,924 --> 00:28:34,934
do you think his job will be easier then?

736
00:28:35,774 --> 00:28:39,944
Andy: Yeah, I think what's that horribly
cynical saying, an act a crisis is an

737
00:28:39,944 --> 00:28:44,394
opportunity or the, symbol, the crisis
is the same as opportunity, the idea

738
00:28:44,394 --> 00:28:47,364
that this is a matter of social justice
is I think quite a persuasive one.

739
00:28:47,412 --> 00:28:50,094
You've, you have got lots of people
who can't afford their energy bills

740
00:28:50,094 --> 00:28:54,454
and also can't afford air conditioning
who would quite like comfortable,

741
00:28:54,574 --> 00:28:56,614
affordable homes and energy supply.

742
00:28:56,854 --> 00:28:58,774
And I think there is a really
good case to be made that these

743
00:28:58,774 --> 00:29:00,814
newer technologies provide those.

744
00:29:00,924 --> 00:29:01,104
Yeah.

745
00:29:01,104 --> 00:29:04,314
Ian: And that's a better argument than
you are all going to die in a fire.

746
00:29:05,246 --> 00:29:05,576
Andy: Yes.

747
00:29:05,576 --> 00:29:07,136
Even though that will
be true for some people.

748
00:29:08,036 --> 00:29:08,216
Adam: Yeah.

749
00:29:08,426 --> 00:29:10,526
Cammy be meanwhile has set herself
completely against it, hasn't she?

750
00:29:10,526 --> 00:29:14,096
She said any anyone who supports
net zero as she used to do till

751
00:29:14,096 --> 00:29:16,886
reasonably recently, cannot
be a conservative candidate.

752
00:29:17,156 --> 00:29:17,426
Andy: Yeah.

753
00:29:18,656 --> 00:29:21,056
it would knock out about half
the shadow cabinet if this was

754
00:29:21,056 --> 00:29:22,346
backdated even a few years.

755
00:29:22,416 --> 00:29:24,056
Helen: She said something even more
controversial, she said, we're not

756
00:29:24,056 --> 00:29:27,026
looking for attention seekers in the,
as our candidates in this party night.

757
00:29:28,256 --> 00:29:30,776
they talk about raising the conservative
party to the ground, starting again.

758
00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:31,106
Andy: Yeah.

759
00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:34,406
But she also said in an interview with
Laura Konberg a week or so ago that,

760
00:29:35,456 --> 00:29:37,106
our emissions nationally have gone up.

761
00:29:37,226 --> 00:29:39,386
They haven't, they've come,
they've halved since 1990.

762
00:29:40,056 --> 00:29:41,526
I don't think she follows
the debate at all.

763
00:29:41,891 --> 00:29:42,606
or the, I thought

764
00:29:42,606 --> 00:29:46,051
Ian: you said she doesn't follow
the news which is, it's not

765
00:29:46,051 --> 00:29:46,251
Andy: good.

766
00:29:46,331 --> 00:29:49,386
I say I also think that, it just
reminds me lots of the time when you

767
00:29:49,386 --> 00:29:51,996
get a politician interviewed, say, what
should we do about the environment?

768
00:29:52,506 --> 00:29:55,236
If they're not engaged at all
and they'll say, I recycle.

769
00:29:56,734 --> 00:29:58,804
that, that's got very
little to do with this man.

770
00:29:59,802 --> 00:30:03,580
it is weird because the target that all
Nations have accepted is that we need to

771
00:30:03,580 --> 00:30:05,200
try and keep warming below two degrees.

772
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:11,260
This is what, one point, just below 1.5 is
big wildfires, big environmental problems.

773
00:30:11,740 --> 00:30:14,890
And at the moment we are not
even on course for two, things

774
00:30:14,890 --> 00:30:16,960
have got a lot better since the
Paris Agreement 10 years ago.

775
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,800
But fundamentally we are still not
on course for two that would require

776
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,630
emissions to come down quite quickly.

777
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,040
Quite a quick clip every year.

778
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:25,330
They're still not coming down.

779
00:30:25,390 --> 00:30:27,250
They're still stumbling along a ridge.

780
00:30:27,330 --> 00:30:30,000
so it's hard to square that with
the argument that new drilling

781
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,240
is pragmatic and And actually in
the short to medium term might,

782
00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:35,340
actually slightly cut emissions.

783
00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:38,070
That's a, a very odd thing to consider,

784
00:30:38,868 --> 00:30:40,998
Helen: I think it's an interesting
example of when you're trying to assess

785
00:30:40,998 --> 00:30:44,958
this very early policy record of there
a pattern emerging of Andy Burnham

786
00:30:45,258 --> 00:30:47,058
talk like the vibes are very left wing.

787
00:30:47,478 --> 00:30:50,508
But the actual governing is a
lot more pragmatic and centrist.

788
00:30:50,688 --> 00:30:53,538
I was thinking the same thing with,
he just very quickly went, we're

789
00:30:53,538 --> 00:30:56,118
suspending the early release of
prisoner scheme until I can look at it.

790
00:30:57,198 --> 00:31:00,498
which I thought was obviously he's done
these big economic giveaways, which is

791
00:31:00,708 --> 00:31:03,858
traditionally left wing, but it's really
interesting to look at the polling because

792
00:31:03,858 --> 00:31:08,778
the latest one puts Labour ahead from, for
the first time in a really long time, but

793
00:31:09,018 --> 00:31:11,538
he's taken a big chunk out of the greens.

794
00:31:12,168 --> 00:31:12,288
Is

795
00:31:12,288 --> 00:31:12,528
that

796
00:31:12,948 --> 00:31:16,758
and I think that's really interesting
in a kind of, is that, vibes, is

797
00:31:16,758 --> 00:31:18,438
he capturing the vibes better?

798
00:31:19,098 --> 00:31:21,948
And actually to go back to Zohran
Mamdani similar to him actually,

799
00:31:21,948 --> 00:31:26,028
he, his big latest, big announcement
was about reducing, licencing

800
00:31:26,028 --> 00:31:27,558
agreements on like barbershops.

801
00:31:27,978 --> 00:31:31,428
So basically like some, something that
Liz Truss would be massively in favour of.

802
00:31:31,428 --> 00:31:31,488
Yeah.

803
00:31:31,788 --> 00:31:35,538
but no one thinks of him as a kind
of neoliberal anti, deregulation bro.

804
00:31:35,538 --> 00:31:35,598
Yeah.

805
00:31:35,778 --> 00:31:37,278
Because the vibes are so different.

806
00:31:37,278 --> 00:31:39,768
So I wonder how long that will last that

807
00:31:39,768 --> 00:31:42,798
Ian: saying you're not going to
allow sex offenders to be let out.

808
00:31:43,248 --> 00:31:45,408
It's quite a good popular win, isn't it,

809
00:31:45,408 --> 00:31:45,858
Helen: generally.

810
00:31:45,888 --> 00:31:48,048
But the problem is it's not like
everyone else was like, hooray

811
00:31:48,048 --> 00:31:49,068
more rapists on our streets.

812
00:31:49,068 --> 00:31:49,968
That's what I'm in favour of.

813
00:31:49,998 --> 00:31:52,728
They were dealing with the
capacity crunch in prisons and I

814
00:31:52,728 --> 00:31:54,828
dunno how he plans to solve that.

815
00:31:54,828 --> 00:32:00,390
It's not like anyone else actively was,
a fan of, restorative justice, they

816
00:32:00,390 --> 00:32:01,680
just didn't have the prison places.

817
00:32:01,710 --> 00:32:02,490
Adam: I did think it was interesting.

818
00:32:02,490 --> 00:32:05,333
I think it went a bit unnoticed in the
kind of reshuffle in new appointments.

819
00:32:05,333 --> 00:32:07,913
There was James Timson who was
Prisons minister under Stama, who

820
00:32:07,913 --> 00:32:09,053
was a really interesting appointment.

821
00:32:09,053 --> 00:32:12,383
He was brought in from outside,
long term campaigner on prisons

822
00:32:12,383 --> 00:32:13,433
and real kinda realistic thinker.

823
00:32:13,463 --> 00:32:16,493
He stepped down quietly, said he
didn't want to carry on in the job.

824
00:32:17,543 --> 00:32:20,333
Helen: that's the same thing with,
Patrick Vallance left government as well.

825
00:32:20,333 --> 00:32:20,393
Yeah.

826
00:32:20,393 --> 00:32:23,753
And the victims minister, after
hearing some of, details of this

827
00:32:23,813 --> 00:32:26,453
very much Giselle Pellicot like
case in Britain also said that she

828
00:32:26,453 --> 00:32:27,803
couldn't, didn't wanna do it anymore.

829
00:32:27,983 --> 00:32:31,103
I think life has be the
relentlessness of the news cycle

830
00:32:31,523 --> 00:32:32,843
and the fact that it's very hard.

831
00:32:33,203 --> 00:32:35,063
prisons is particularly
badly affected by this.

832
00:32:35,063 --> 00:32:37,493
We've had more prisons ministers
and you've had hot dinners.

833
00:32:38,573 --> 00:32:38,633
Yeah.

834
00:32:38,753 --> 00:32:41,333
it's very hard for people to
prosper in that role 'cause the

835
00:32:41,333 --> 00:32:42,743
cha like it's constantly changing.

836
00:32:42,743 --> 00:32:43,463
There's no money.

837
00:32:43,463 --> 00:32:43,793
Andy: Yes.

838
00:32:44,303 --> 00:32:45,503
same with energy secretaries.

839
00:32:45,503 --> 00:32:48,203
To be fair, there's quite a
lot of turnover in that brief.

840
00:32:48,713 --> 00:32:52,193
I th I think the thing that Burnham is
doing is trying to triangulate a bit

841
00:32:52,793 --> 00:32:56,093
because trying to go with public opinion
a bit, because the latest YouGov polling

842
00:32:56,093 --> 00:32:58,613
is that four over 40% of people say Yeah.

843
00:32:58,613 --> 00:32:59,243
A bit more drilling.

844
00:32:59,783 --> 00:33:02,333
And then there's quite a heavy
cadra of don't knows as well.

845
00:33:02,723 --> 00:33:05,813
But I think if one of these was granted,
it might defang the issue enough.

846
00:33:05,843 --> 00:33:06,053
Yep.

847
00:33:06,173 --> 00:33:08,243
The, the overall direction of
travel hasn't changed though.

848
00:33:08,513 --> 00:33:11,123
they've still got, the targets
are all still in place of,

849
00:33:11,123 --> 00:33:11,903
how to get off the stuff.

850
00:33:11,963 --> 00:33:13,043
So yeah.

851
00:33:13,043 --> 00:33:14,303
It's a bit of a watch this space.

852
00:33:14,333 --> 00:33:17,273
Helen: It sounds realistic to say for
as long as there are people with petrol

853
00:33:17,273 --> 00:33:18,713
cars, we are going to need petrol.

854
00:33:18,827 --> 00:33:21,437
Andy: But you nudge along the
targets to, accelerate the

855
00:33:21,511 --> 00:33:22,367
transition at the same time.

856
00:33:22,427 --> 00:33:22,637
Helen: Yeah.

857
00:33:22,817 --> 00:33:23,927
Andy: So we shall see,

858
00:33:24,358 --> 00:33:24,838
You turn into

859
00:33:24,838 --> 00:33:26,548
Ian: Chris Mason, you
are rounding up by now.

860
00:33:26,728 --> 00:33:27,463
We shall see.

861
00:33:28,963 --> 00:33:29,458
no on this

862
00:33:29,458 --> 00:33:30,358
Andy: podcast mate.

863
00:33:30,527 --> 00:33:30,908
Sorry, sorry.

864
00:33:30,928 --> 00:33:33,358
Helen: In summary, Andy
Burnham is a land of contrast.

865
00:33:33,358 --> 00:33:35,368
Andy: Another, another exciting
day in British politics.

866
00:33:35,368 --> 00:33:35,818
Something for

867
00:33:35,818 --> 00:33:36,838
Ian: sure, it's not over yet,

868
00:33:41,693 --> 00:33:45,503
Andy: so with all that in mind, Ian,
how is the, I gonna make fun of Andy

869
00:33:45,503 --> 00:33:50,093
Burnham because new Prime Minister is the
PM's WhatsApp group going to fade away?

870
00:33:50,093 --> 00:33:50,603
Is it gonna be,

871
00:33:51,503 --> 00:33:52,763
Ian: we're not, going to make fun of him.

872
00:33:52,853 --> 00:33:53,063
Andy.

873
00:33:53,063 --> 00:33:53,393
Oh, sorry.

874
00:33:53,393 --> 00:33:53,453
Andy: Okay.

875
00:33:53,603 --> 00:33:54,593
Ian: He's left wing.

876
00:33:54,773 --> 00:33:57,893
You must read the reader's
letters from now on.

877
00:33:57,893 --> 00:33:59,723
There will be no criticism at all.

878
00:33:59,903 --> 00:34:03,953
The woke Libtard private eye
will be giving up completely.

879
00:34:04,103 --> 00:34:05,633
There will be no criticism of Andy.

880
00:34:06,053 --> 00:34:06,623
for God's sake.

881
00:34:06,623 --> 00:34:07,553
Give him a break.

882
00:34:07,853 --> 00:34:10,334
Andy: Should say Ian's just come
from a session reading reader's

883
00:34:10,334 --> 00:34:12,134
correspondence for the last fortnight.

884
00:34:12,584 --> 00:34:15,084
Are people convinced that you've
given up on the jokes now?

885
00:34:15,504 --> 00:34:15,714
Ian: yeah.

886
00:34:15,714 --> 00:34:16,449
No, that's it now.

887
00:34:16,649 --> 00:34:18,234
Or that we should give up on the jokes.

888
00:34:18,234 --> 00:34:18,774
It's one of two.

889
00:34:18,774 --> 00:34:19,764
We either have right?

890
00:34:19,764 --> 00:34:20,364
Or we should

891
00:34:20,424 --> 00:34:20,784
Andy: Okay.

892
00:34:20,874 --> 00:34:21,504
Ian: Take your pick.

893
00:34:22,254 --> 00:34:27,624
no, we will be continuing to try and
assess the, new Prime Minister comically.

894
00:34:27,774 --> 00:34:27,954
Andy: Yeah.

895
00:34:28,584 --> 00:34:30,324
Ian: but we're not doing
the WhatsApp group anymore.

896
00:34:30,654 --> 00:34:33,384
partly 'cause everyone's
discovered disappear function.

897
00:34:34,554 --> 00:34:36,594
so they don't send WhatsApps anymore.

898
00:34:37,494 --> 00:34:42,504
and also I think it was time for
a, a new format ' cause I think he

899
00:34:42,504 --> 00:34:46,290
is different I've had it on three
sources that he's from the north.

900
00:34:47,730 --> 00:34:49,470
so we thought that was quite a good start.

901
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,240
we did a, a version of Coronation Street
last week, which is not terribly like

902
00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:57,600
the Coronation Street that's going
out at the moment, but it is a sort of

903
00:34:57,750 --> 00:35:03,840
nostalgia retro Burnhamite seventies
Coronation Street, which seems to be

904
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,550
quite fun and went down quite well.

905
00:35:05,790 --> 00:35:07,380
So we might be continuing with

906
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:07,620
Adam: that.

907
00:35:07,625 --> 00:35:10,260
That was what worried me slightly is if
you make it like today's Coronation Street

908
00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:11,769
as we about three murders per fortnight.

909
00:35:11,970 --> 00:35:12,180
Yeah.

910
00:35:13,045 --> 00:35:13,225
Ian: No.

911
00:35:13,345 --> 00:35:17,635
it's like him saying he wants, an
old fashioned labour party to return,

912
00:35:17,635 --> 00:35:19,495
so that, that's where we are going.

913
00:35:19,555 --> 00:35:20,845
So back to Albert Tatlock and ENA

914
00:35:20,845 --> 00:35:21,205
Adam: Chapel.

915
00:35:21,415 --> 00:35:21,715
Andy: Excellent.

916
00:35:21,745 --> 00:35:22,375
Good stuff.

917
00:35:22,473 --> 00:35:25,023
Helen: And also SNL uk, which turned
out to be much more successful

918
00:35:25,023 --> 00:35:27,753
than anyone predicted, really did
well with their political parodies.

919
00:35:28,223 --> 00:35:29,963
, and I think George four
Akers got his key star.

920
00:35:29,963 --> 00:35:33,233
I feel that's the main sadness I feel
actually at the actually Departure

921
00:35:33,233 --> 00:35:35,723
of Keir Starmer I thought that was a
really great Keir Starmer impression.

922
00:35:35,963 --> 00:35:38,663
And he's not gonna be called on to
do that again very much anymore.

923
00:35:39,113 --> 00:35:42,203
Ian: Even the people who did very
good Keir Starmer impersonations,

924
00:35:42,263 --> 00:35:43,613
people didn't like them very much.

925
00:35:44,558 --> 00:35:47,423
and the more accurate they were, I
think the less popular they were.

926
00:35:47,598 --> 00:35:49,253
So it was quite odd.

927
00:35:49,253 --> 00:35:54,353
There was a sense in which, in the old
days, Harry Enfield on spitting image used

928
00:35:54,353 --> 00:35:59,783
to do not very accurate impersonations
of people, but they were funny.

929
00:36:00,133 --> 00:36:05,683
there's an element of, surreal imagining
that makes these things funnier.

930
00:36:06,042 --> 00:36:06,702
on private eye.

931
00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:11,808
we're, we are always looking for something
that will, get the tenor of it, but

932
00:36:11,868 --> 00:36:14,688
not necessarily be fiendishly accurate.

933
00:36:15,258 --> 00:36:19,308
for a long time we presented Tony
Blair as an evangelical vicar,

934
00:36:19,488 --> 00:36:20,658
which technically he isn't.

935
00:36:21,738 --> 00:36:23,672
but, there was something
about his demeanour.

936
00:36:23,982 --> 00:36:24,452
he felt like

937
00:36:24,452 --> 00:36:26,072
Helen: one spiritually he was Vicar.

938
00:36:26,072 --> 00:36:26,162
Yes.

939
00:36:26,372 --> 00:36:29,792
Ian: And Theresa May ran a, a sort
of not very successful girls school.

940
00:36:30,662 --> 00:36:32,702
Adam: that was the most extraordinary
one because that was one that

941
00:36:32,702 --> 00:36:33,662
continued over, wasn't it?

942
00:36:33,962 --> 00:36:36,002
the, the school was originally
the coalition academy.

943
00:36:36,722 --> 00:36:39,512
It was, and it was David Cameron
and, then Nick Clegg's deputy head.

944
00:36:39,722 --> 00:36:42,422
And somehow that one, it was like
you knew Theresa May was gonna

945
00:36:42,422 --> 00:36:45,422
come along who was just absolutely
a head mistress, wasn't she?

946
00:36:45,422 --> 00:36:45,482
Yeah.

947
00:36:45,482 --> 00:36:45,857
She was bought perfect.

948
00:36:45,927 --> 00:36:47,057
Slotted in perfectly.

949
00:36:47,792 --> 00:36:49,652
Helen: I think it's quite sound
for the politicians because I

950
00:36:49,652 --> 00:36:52,257
feel like they get more like the
private eye parodies of them.

951
00:36:52,537 --> 00:36:54,962
I feel like it becomes a prison
from which they can't escape.

952
00:36:56,042 --> 00:36:58,622
Andy: I was, thinking when we talked
about Tony Blair earlier, one of his

953
00:36:58,892 --> 00:37:03,152
ingenious early, man of the people moves
was, I'm sure you'll remember this.

954
00:37:03,152 --> 00:37:05,162
He would leave the house
holding a mug of tea.

955
00:37:05,792 --> 00:37:06,392
And this was,

956
00:37:06,397 --> 00:37:09,212
Adam: there was a lot of, this wasn't, and
it had a picture of his kids on as well.

957
00:37:09,257 --> 00:37:09,497
Andy: Yeah, You

958
00:37:09,617 --> 00:37:09,657
Adam: remember?

959
00:37:09,657 --> 00:37:09,817
Yeah.

960
00:37:09,872 --> 00:37:10,292
Yeah,

961
00:37:10,292 --> 00:37:13,022
Andy: And then he got into his car
and you have to think, what are you

962
00:37:13,022 --> 00:37:14,522
doing with the, where's the mug go?

963
00:37:14,732 --> 00:37:14,942
Adam: Yeah.

964
00:37:15,182 --> 00:37:16,052
Andy: Dishwasher in the car.

965
00:37:16,052 --> 00:37:17,222
Like what, is this?

966
00:37:17,462 --> 00:37:20,462
But it was, but it worked as long as
you didn't think about it too much.

967
00:37:20,462 --> 00:37:20,972
So I think

968
00:37:20,972 --> 00:37:25,097
Ian: the car was full of stuff,
it just pass the mug over.

969
00:37:25,837 --> 00:37:26,552
Andy: Oh, I'm sure.

970
00:37:26,552 --> 00:37:27,122
I'm sure.

971
00:37:27,452 --> 00:37:29,612
I think we've talked about this a bit
before, Ian, is there a problem that

972
00:37:29,612 --> 00:37:33,232
there are fewer of these, , written
formats, which everyone gets?

973
00:37:33,262 --> 00:37:33,412
Ian: Yeah,

974
00:37:33,498 --> 00:37:36,592
Andy: so WhatsApp was, a perfect
example because everyone is

975
00:37:36,592 --> 00:37:37,702
in lots of WhatsApp groups.

976
00:37:38,012 --> 00:37:42,302
whereas, there are fewer in Albion
Parish news, there aren't so many people.

977
00:37:42,302 --> 00:37:42,392
And

978
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,900
Ian: traditionally on a magazine,
you're looking for a literary format.

979
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:46,850
And it used to be, there were diaries.

980
00:37:47,180 --> 00:37:50,060
originally there was Mrs.
Wilson's diary, with John Major.

981
00:37:50,060 --> 00:37:52,820
It was a parody of Adrian Mole of a book.

982
00:37:52,820 --> 00:37:54,110
It was the Secret Diary.

983
00:37:54,110 --> 00:37:55,610
These are literary formats.

984
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,440
Dear Bill was a series of letters.

985
00:37:57,650 --> 00:37:58,970
People don't write letters anymore.

986
00:37:58,970 --> 00:37:59,900
They don't keep diaries.

987
00:38:01,054 --> 00:38:03,214
It, became more and more difficult.

988
00:38:03,934 --> 00:38:09,634
there was a parish newsletter, obviously
I read mine, but, I'm not sure that it's

989
00:38:09,634 --> 00:38:12,064
a hugely popular medium at the moment.

990
00:38:12,514 --> 00:38:14,374
And, it, has to exist in memory as well.

991
00:38:14,614 --> 00:38:16,354
So it became more difficult.

992
00:38:16,474 --> 00:38:19,204
WhatsApp was a bit of a saviour
'cause people were writing again.

993
00:38:19,264 --> 00:38:19,444
Yeah.

994
00:38:19,984 --> 00:38:21,304
and you could actually record those.

995
00:38:21,424 --> 00:38:25,624
But again, that's become a bit of a cliche
that everything is done by WhatsApp group.

996
00:38:25,774 --> 00:38:29,824
So one one's always looking for a
format and part of the joy of the

997
00:38:29,914 --> 00:38:31,964
Coronation Street is it's a script.

998
00:38:32,584 --> 00:38:32,904
Adam: Yeah.

999
00:38:33,094 --> 00:38:35,524
Ian: You can get a lot of visual
in, you get a lot of people in, but

1000
00:38:35,524 --> 00:38:37,384
it is basically, it's starts off.

1001
00:38:37,906 --> 00:38:38,956
As the written word.

1002
00:38:39,106 --> 00:38:41,506
So that's one of the limitations.

1003
00:38:41,576 --> 00:38:44,450
Adam: it gives you the leeway as well to
be more surreal with it, I think as well.

1004
00:38:44,450 --> 00:38:47,180
Because the thing about Mrs.
Wilson's diary, John Major's diary

1005
00:38:47,180 --> 00:38:50,780
and Dear Bill, was they were all
slightly in a parallel universe.

1006
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:50,930
Yeah.

1007
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:51,920
Weren't they as well?

1008
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,370
They flipped out and you could,
you they, it gave you more kind of

1009
00:38:55,460 --> 00:38:57,020
scope to be imaginative with it and

1010
00:38:57,044 --> 00:39:00,704
Ian: I think it's not probably true
that Yvette Cooper wears her hairnet

1011
00:39:00,794 --> 00:39:02,924
and looks like Ena Sharples so far.

1012
00:39:03,524 --> 00:39:04,594
I don't think that's sourced can

1013
00:39:04,594 --> 00:39:06,584
Helen: imagine her in Victoria
Woods's dinner Ladies though.

1014
00:39:06,854 --> 00:39:07,089
Do you know what?

1015
00:39:07,094 --> 00:39:09,974
I can see this sort of tabard
but, you know what is genuinely

1016
00:39:09,974 --> 00:39:11,024
a hugely popular genre.

1017
00:39:11,024 --> 00:39:12,704
We had a piece about
it in the book section.

1018
00:39:12,704 --> 00:39:14,584
This, last issue Romantacy

1019
00:39:14,709 --> 00:39:15,169
Andy: Oh no.

1020
00:39:15,344 --> 00:39:15,824
Adam: Oh, the

1021
00:39:15,824 --> 00:39:15,974
Andy

1022
00:39:15,974 --> 00:39:16,264
Burnham Romantacy

1023
00:39:16,789 --> 00:39:20,294
Helen: You want Andy Burnham falling
in love with a big Minotaur Come on.

1024
00:39:20,714 --> 00:39:24,164
Ian: I think Helen's personal
problems getting  overwhelming

1025
00:39:24,974 --> 00:39:25,394
Andy: my eyes.

1026
00:39:25,394 --> 00:39:27,224
I just don't, it's just No, I

1027
00:39:28,034 --> 00:39:30,554
don't, it is unbelievably
popular as a genre.

1028
00:39:30,554 --> 00:39:31,004
You're right.

1029
00:39:31,004 --> 00:39:32,294
It's one of the only genres anyone's

1030
00:39:32,294 --> 00:39:32,959
Helen: reading on the train.

1031
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:33,289
Breathe.

1032
00:39:33,289 --> 00:39:33,689
Think about it.

1033
00:39:33,764 --> 00:39:35,204
Just let it sit for a couple of weeks.

1034
00:39:35,204 --> 00:39:36,044
We'll revisit this.

1035
00:39:36,134 --> 00:39:36,224
Ian: Okay.

1036
00:39:36,224 --> 00:39:37,214
It's a literary format.

1037
00:39:37,274 --> 00:39:38,204
We should be doing it.

1038
00:39:39,014 --> 00:39:39,529
I've got it.

1039
00:39:39,614 --> 00:39:40,244
Andy: Oh God.

1040
00:39:40,304 --> 00:39:40,724
Okay.

1041
00:39:41,024 --> 00:39:43,634
Adam: I think Andy Burnham has been very
clever as well in terms of cartoonists.

1042
00:39:43,809 --> 00:39:46,637
'cause  Keir Starmer as you say, was very
hard for cartoonists to get a handle on.

1043
00:39:46,637 --> 00:39:50,057
There wasn't anything and individual
thing, Andy Burnham has already done that.

1044
00:39:50,057 --> 00:39:50,807
This is what he wears.

1045
00:39:50,807 --> 00:39:53,627
He dresses down, he wears the black
t-shirts, he wears the, as we were

1046
00:39:53,627 --> 00:39:54,647
told by the Mail On Sunday this week.

1047
00:39:54,917 --> 00:39:56,207
Very, expensive jackets.

1048
00:39:56,512 --> 00:39:56,642
okay.

1049
00:39:56,647 --> 00:39:57,197
He's prime minister.

1050
00:39:57,197 --> 00:39:58,427
He is doing all right
from something very full.

1051
00:39:58,517 --> 00:40:01,337
He's not got, Lord Ali buying
them for him as far as we know.

1052
00:40:01,833 --> 00:40:03,183
so he's got that image there.

1053
00:40:03,183 --> 00:40:06,873
And I always think John Major, who
I always think, Steve Bell, after he

1054
00:40:07,173 --> 00:40:10,233
did him with his underpants outside
his trousers, somehow that just became

1055
00:40:10,233 --> 00:40:12,363
the sort of definitive visual Yeah.

1056
00:40:13,023 --> 00:40:17,013
version of him and actually to seize,
seize the day earlier as Andy Burnham's

1057
00:40:17,013 --> 00:40:18,333
done and say, this is what my image is.

1058
00:40:18,333 --> 00:40:20,873
And there's enough to play with,
he can be that Manchester Hacienda

1059
00:40:20,873 --> 00:40:22,293
raver or whatever for cartoonist.

1060
00:40:22,473 --> 00:40:23,193
Helen: Oh, it's really smart.

1061
00:40:23,193 --> 00:40:26,253
Like the quarter zip, the polo neck,
like all of that, the black tee like

1062
00:40:26,283 --> 00:40:27,573
having a thing that people mock.

1063
00:40:27,753 --> 00:40:30,723
this is something that sad Ka
famously said to lobby journalists

1064
00:40:30,723 --> 00:40:33,483
when he was running for Mayor Of
London the first time, which is

1065
00:40:33,783 --> 00:40:35,163
you are all taking the piss out.

1066
00:40:35,163 --> 00:40:36,633
Me saying, my father's a bus driver.

1067
00:40:36,813 --> 00:40:40,113
Like by the time that's boring to you,
a normal voter has heard it once, right?

1068
00:40:40,248 --> 00:40:40,468
And

1069
00:40:40,593 --> 00:40:43,413
the same thing as a normal voter will
go, oh, prime minister's, that guy

1070
00:40:43,413 --> 00:40:47,343
who's in the black T-shirt, which,
you know, so I think that very Smart

1071
00:40:47,523 --> 00:40:48,933
Donald Trump essentially has a uniform.

1072
00:40:48,933 --> 00:40:51,243
He has the blue suit and the red
tie, like just it, he wears them.

1073
00:40:51,243 --> 00:40:55,443
And then Red MAGA cap Zohran Mamdani
from the left always wears a suit to

1074
00:40:55,443 --> 00:40:58,503
the extent that when he did a video
about opening public pools in New

1075
00:40:58,503 --> 00:41:02,853
York, he jumped in the pool in a suit
and a full suit, because that's his,

1076
00:41:03,063 --> 00:41:04,468
he is, he says, I'm a, that's thing.

1077
00:41:04,563 --> 00:41:05,793
I'm a sewer socialist.

1078
00:41:05,793 --> 00:41:09,393
I'm like, I'm from a tradition
about socialists who fix the sewers.

1079
00:41:09,543 --> 00:41:10,713
So I'm coming to work.

1080
00:41:10,923 --> 00:41:12,093
I take this very seriously.

1081
00:41:12,483 --> 00:41:15,093
And I think, I, you can mock it as being.

1082
00:41:16,215 --> 00:41:17,625
again, I just think it's professional.

1083
00:41:17,655 --> 00:41:18,315
You've just thought about it.

1084
00:41:18,315 --> 00:41:20,805
The queen always wore a block colour
because people wanted to be able

1085
00:41:20,805 --> 00:41:22,095
to see where she was in a crowd.

1086
00:41:22,095 --> 00:41:25,875
Like you think about, he's not a normal
person, he's prime minister, it's

1087
00:41:25,875 --> 00:41:26,955
Ian: okay.

1088
00:41:26,955 --> 00:41:27,795
And Zelensky is a war leader.

1089
00:41:27,855 --> 00:41:27,975
Helen: Yeah.

1090
00:41:27,975 --> 00:41:28,515
He always

1091
00:41:28,515 --> 00:41:29,385
Ian: wear, so he wears that.

1092
00:41:29,445 --> 00:41:29,595
Yeah.

1093
00:41:29,775 --> 00:41:34,425
it is great that Trump didn't
understand that having failed,

1094
00:41:34,505 --> 00:41:35,165
Helen: to go to war.

1095
00:41:35,364 --> 00:41:35,555
Yeah.

1096
00:41:35,555 --> 00:41:35,615
Ian: Yeah.

1097
00:41:36,755 --> 00:41:40,745
Helen: So I know another, another tick
mark in my ongoing column of Andy Burnham.

1098
00:41:41,105 --> 00:41:41,195
Okay.

1099
00:41:41,195 --> 00:41:41,975
Plus of minuses.

1100
00:41:43,445 --> 00:41:44,915
Andy: I guess we'll wait and
see what the readers make of it.

1101
00:41:45,455 --> 00:41:45,905
Ian: We will.

1102
00:41:46,295 --> 00:41:47,165
And then do the opposite.

1103
00:41:49,705 --> 00:41:51,397
Andy: That's it for
this episode of page 94.

1104
00:41:51,397 --> 00:41:52,447
Thank you so much for listening.

1105
00:41:52,447 --> 00:41:53,257
We hope you've enjoyed it.

1106
00:41:53,257 --> 00:41:56,677
If you'd like to hear more about any of
the stories we've discussed and many,

1107
00:41:56,677 --> 00:42:00,487
more besides, they can all be found in
the latest issue of Private Eye, available

1108
00:42:00,487 --> 00:42:06,337
not only on news stands, but also in
subscription form@privatehyeneye.co.uk.

1109
00:42:06,577 --> 00:42:08,407
Thanks to Ian, Helen and Adam.

1110
00:42:08,617 --> 00:42:11,287
And thank you to Matt Hill of
Rethink Audio for producing.

1111
00:42:11,347 --> 00:42:12,757
We'll be back in a
fortnight with another one.

1112
00:42:12,847 --> 00:42:13,357
Bye for now.