>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Angelo, who is a Jesuit

scholastic writer, uh, artist and campus minister

who is currently training for the priesthood. He's

a Filipino American from New Jersey and he's

currently serving as director of campus ministry.

In this conversation, Angelo reflects on what it's

like to be discerning religious life and to work

in ministry, but also to experience imposter

syndrome and how God still called him and used him

despite his self doubt. So Angelo, what was life

like before entering the Jesuits?

>> Angelo: I had a very, very happy childhood. Um, I grew up

Catholic. Erm. I like to say I grew up Catholic

with a lot of Filipino flavour. Uh, so I was born

in the Philippines, um, and then my whole family,

my two parents and um, my two siblings and I moved

to the United States when I was about five. Um,

and you know, we were involved in the uh, kind of

normal church things. We went to Mass every

Sunday. But in addition to that, um, my parents

were also a part of a Filipino, um, kind of

charismatic group. Um, and so I was constantly at

prayer meetings at different people's houses and

uh, when I was a teenager I joined the sort of

youth group part of it. Um, and so I think I was

really saturated in ah, a, ah, world where yeah

people just took for granted that faith was an

important part of life. Um, and in fact that, that

like going to church kind of meant, you know,

being around people who knew what it was like to

be Filipino American. Um, that, that's where I

felt kind of the most understood and the most seen

and had the most commonality with people. I used

to joke with people that uh, that I didn't know

that white people could be Catholic until, until I

got to college and then I was surrounded by them.

But, yeah, it was lovely. And so I did. I went

away to our Jesuit university there, Loyola

University Chicago, and that's where I met the

Jesuits. That's where I sort of encountered

Ignatian spirituality. And, uh, so I, like, came

to university with a lot of kind of foreknowledge

about the Jesuits and a lot, I realised was

inaccurate. So when I was meeting Jesuits, I sort

of met them with a little bit of suspicion,

actually, and said, like, are you. What are you

guys really up to? But slowly but surely, I began

to realise that these were very holy and happy men

and not perfect by any stretch of the imagination,

but, uh, that there was something about their life

that spoke to me of God and of, um, what God is

trying to do, I think, in the world.

>> Julia: If we'd met 10 years ago, what would you have

thought your future would look like?

>> Angelo: So, 10 years ago I was 21. Gosh, I think I would

have told you something like, in the next 10

years, I'm going to be the world's best lay

theologian. I'm going to write all these books,

I'm going to. I'm going to be the top of my field.

I'll get married, I'll have maybe one or two kids

and I'll live in this beautiful house. And none of

that has come true.

>> Julia: I was going to be like, you're putting a high

expectation on yourself in 10 years.

>> Angelo: Yeah, I think it has been the case that I have had

high expectations for myself for a long time.

>> Julia: And, um. Where do you think that comes from?

>> Angelo: I wonder if it's a question both of nurture and

nature. I think there's probably something in my

disposition and in my personality that tends

towards perfectionism, that tends towards kind of

a high anxiety moving about in the world. And I

also think, without any blame on anyone, I think

growing up as an immigrant, growing up as a person

of colour, growing up in my community, um, there

was a lot of emphasis on doing well, There was a

lot of emphasis on getting good grades, there was

a lot of emphasis on excelling. Um, I think in

part too, because it's like, how was I going to

pay for college if I didn't get a scholarship? How

was I going to advance in life if I didn't make

the opportunities for myself? And so I think both

something inside me, the way that God made me, is

sort of seeking for to be better and also feeling

confirmed in that, in the world that I grew up in,

in a world that was, um, so loving and so

supportive and also, like, really Emphasised a

good job. Um, I think I have brought that into

myself today. And I think it is the work that God

is kind of slowly trying to undo in my own life

of, uh, being able to say, like, hey, you don't

have to earn this thing. You don't have to. I'm

not going to give you a grade on how you lived

your life. I'm just happy to be with you. And that

to me is like, what do you mean? Like, why

wouldn't, why, why wouldn't you. Me saying to God,

like, why wouldn't you want me to do the best? And

God's simply saying, like, I actually just kind of

like you the way you are. Um, yeah, that's,

that's, that is a lot of my prayer. It's a lot of,

like, God says that, but can I accept it?

>> Julia: It's interesting what you said, because I used to

have it where I almost couldn't make a decision

about what God was asking me to do.

>> Angelo: Yeah.

>> Julia: Because I just didn't want to get it wrong. And it

was only when I had spiritual direction that my

spiritual director just turned to me and went,

when do you think you're bigger than God? Like,

how do you think you're bigger than God? That you

can mess God's plan up?

>> Angelo: Oh, my goodness.

>> Julia: And that for me was just like a, uh, weight lifted

off me that no longer did I have to be trapped by

this. I have to do it perfectly. Otherwise I'm

messing up God's plan. And, uh, actually it was

like, well, whatever you do, within reason, God

can still use that.

>> Angelo: Oh, yeah. No, and I love that. I mean, in a small

way, I have a tough time picking out what kind of

new thing to buy because I have to read all of the

reviews and I have to optimise. But in our own

lives, I think, and this is, I think, so much the

result of also our culture, it becomes almost

impossible to sort of just make a decision that

might end up badly or that might end up in an

outcome that we were not intending. And yet the

clarity of another person, particularly the

clarity of your spiritual director who's also

praying and also in tune with what God is trying

to say. Being able to say, like, yeah, but you

think you could mess up the plan of the creator of

the universe. Right. Like, I think we've been, as

a human society, we've been trying to mess up

God's plan for. Since we got on the scene. And

yet, and yet salvation history shows us. I think

if I could preach for a second Salvation history

shows us that God is so willing to continue to

redeem us and to continue to save us, in fact,

because we mess up, maybe. I don't know.

>> Julia: And so.

Well, you've already said when you first met a

Jesuit, you were like, you couldn't imagine

yourself being one and now you are one. Um, well,

how did that happen?

>> Angelo: Sure. Yeah. I think my journey into religious life

is a lot like. I think it was John Green, who

writes this in one of his books. Um, it's like a

little, like, A little like falling in love and a

little like falling asleep slowly at first and

then all at once. Um, so I look at these different

moments of my life, maybe like when I was asking

these questions about God and even before that,

when I was making my first communion and all these

things and I'm putting, Putting them together. And

I realise, uh, that I think for a long time God

was kind of working in my heart to pull me

towards, um, wanting to do something bigger than

myself and wanting to belong, really, to something

bigger than myself. And when I met the Jesuits at

Loyola University Chicago, both the priests who

were my professors and also, um, you know, young

guys in formation who were there studying

philosophy, I began to realise, like, that they

had this kind of happiness and joy, uh, that was

very attractive to me. And I wanted to know. I was

sort of like, what is that? What's going on with

that, that happiness? And slowly but surely I

realised that that happiness is not just kind of,

um, like an absence of sadness or an absence of

anger, um, but really like a kind of security that

their relationship with Jesus especially keeps,

um, them going. And when I finished at Loyola

Chicago, I worked for a year at America magazine,

um, which is a Jesuit apostolate, a Jesuit and

media apostolate, um, and got to know the Jesuits

there. And then I went to grad school at Boston

College and studied theology, actually, with guys

who were the last stage before priesthood. And

there was a moment when I just said, everything

has fallen into place. Um, and it wasn't so much a

certainty, but just this idea that, yeah, like, I

kept feeling God inviting me to just take a next

step, to apply to the Jesuits, to think about what

it would be like to be a Jesuit, um, to take what

I had grown in this, this idea of happiness and

joy and relationship with Jesus and kind of make

a. Make a leap, uh, into it a little bit further.

>> Julia: So it sounds like it was a bit more of a slow burn

than a, like, boom moment, as we often describe it

on the podcast.

>> Angelo: Yeah, yeah.

>> Julia: Like, so when was there a point where you were

like, okay, this is it. This is like, this makes

sense now. This is what my calling is.

>> Angelo: You know, it's funny, um, I think I knew the

answer to that, actually, in kind of the opposite

way. I remember, uh, when I began applying to the

Jesuits, uh, they assigned me a spiritual director

in, In. In the area, a local, uh, Jesuit priest in

Boston. And in the first moment that we met, um,

he was like, well, why do you want to be a Jesuit?

I was like, oh, well, you know, like, I think.

Like, I think I could be good for the Jesuits. I

think I could, you know, have my talents, be

coinciding with the things that the Jesuits are

doing. And he stopped me, which is funny, in

spiritual direction, this doesn't usually happen.

He, uh, stopped me. And, um, if you think that

you're doing us a favour, then you should just

pack up. Like, the church doesn't need you to be a

Jesuit. We don't need you to be a Jesuit. We're

just fine. This is a question about if you desire

something and if God is desiring something in you.

I remember I left that session really shaken in a

great way of like, oh, okay, if this is real, it

has to be the thing, uh, that I want. And, And I

think in the. In the Jesuit tradition, we would

say the thing that I want and that God wants for

me. Um, so I think it was actually in that moment

when I felt challenged by, by this Jesuit who is

now actually my. My local superior, um, to say,

like, oh, I'm not. Yeah, this isn't about doing

the Jesuits a favour. This isn't about saying,

like, oh, well, they need good men and so I'll try

to be one. Um, there was a little bit deeper than

that.

>> Julia: I guess it needs to be deeper than that. Right?

Because that's only going to keep you going for so

long, but eventually that's going to run out and

you're going to then be like, well, what am I

doing here as a Jesuit?

>> Angelo: Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think too, something

that we say in formation, uh, is that often the

reason that we apply or the reason we enter is not

the reason why we stay. And so I think, even for

me, in these last six years of being a Jesuit,

I've realised that so much of what keeps me in

this vocation is, in fact the experiences I've had

in it that I couldn't have imagined having, um,

before I was a Jesuit, that there was no way to

kind of discern the particular realities of Life

as a Jesuit before living it. Um, so whereas it

was that kind of happiness and joy that I saw that

first attracted me to the Jesuits, I think now

actually is a deeper sense of, like, I get to be

involved in the mission that God is doing in the

world in the particular way that Jesuits do that

mission. And I love that. And it is exhausting,

and it's good, and it keeps me going.

>> Julia: I just want to jump in because you said you're six

years into it.

>> Angelo: Yes.

>> Julia: If I'm right, it's 11 years until you become,

like, from beginning to the end, isn't it? So you

become a priest by the end?

>> Angelo: I mean, yeah, usually for most guys, it's 11. So

I'm just past the halfway mark.

>> Julia: Wow, that is a long process. So you really do need

to have that sense of, like, vocation in order to

keep going. And it's interesting what you said

about what brings you in isn't always the thing

that makes you stay. Were there any points where

you had, like, fears or doubts about what when you

were deciding to be a Jesuit?

>> Angelo: Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of the, um,

experience of sort of the application process was

so wonderful in that it taught me so much about

myself. You know, we had to do a psychological

evaluation. We had to write a spiritual

autobiography. And I was just able to connect

these dots that I'd never connected before. So I

felt, in many ways, becoming a Jesuit, I felt very

consoled and confirmed. And it wasn't really until

I got to, uh, the novitiate, um, the first stage

of Jesuit formation, that I was like, whoa, hold

on a second. Am I cut out for this? The fear and

the doubt kind of crept in a lot. I think I

remember it was my first week in the novitiate.

Um, and I had made sort of a silly mistake, one

that is sort of not consequential. I think I got

the wrong plate from the wrong place. As we were

getting dinner, and I sort of jokingly but

anxiously said to my novice director, I said

something like, oh, well, you know, I'll try not

to make any more mistakes. Um, and he laughed, but

he sort of replied to me in a serious way. Um, he

was like, angela, this experience isn't about not

making mistakes. It's about seeing what God is

doing when you do make mistakes. Um, and I

remember I was like, is he going to kick me out of

the nemeshit right now? Um, but in fact, it was

that. That kind of helped me understand, like,

okay, the fear and the doubt are. Are A part of

the game. The question is, what is God doing in

the midst of that?

>> Julia: I think that's a really good point for anyone,

whether they're discerning to be a Jesuit or not.

Like, it's not about. Because we all make

mistakes, right? We're all human. So it's not

about, like, not making mistakes, but it's how do

you and God respond to that when you make a

mistake as well?

>> Angelo: That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Julia: So from that time in the novitiate, was there any,

like, time where you felt like you had impostor

syndrome?

>> Angelo: Yeah. Yeah, I think I didn't feel this thing that

we call imposter syndrome until. Until I was a

novice. It was funny. I had this reflection. Uh, I

graduated with my master's degree in theology the

same summer that I was going to become a novice.

And this was all in the middle of COVID which was

a crazy time for everyone. But I remember

thinking, like, I'm going from being declared a

master of something to a novice. And so there was,

like, a real stepping down. Um, and this has kind

of become true of my Jesuit life. I, like, was

immediately thrown into a situation that I was not

prepared for. Uh, my first kind of mission as a

novice was to, uh, be a hospital, ah, chaplain,

um, at this place that was like a medical

university, a level one trauma centre. And it was

the place where COVID patients were going to all.

Before the vaccine. I was like, what's happening?

And my job was not to sort of provide medical

care, but to just provide pastoral care and

spiritual care to these folks, many of whom, like,

weren't allowed to have visitors. Um, and I

remember just being so, ah, deeply worried that I

was going to say the wrong thing, that I was going

to, uh, do the wrong thing or in some way, like,

kind of spiritually hurt somebody without

intending to. I remember I was just tiptoeing

around everything, just trying not to make

mistakes. And then finally one day I did. I just

said the wrong thing. I thought I was assessing

the situation. Well, it was this patient who had

had a tough diagnosis. And I said something. I

don't even really remember what it was. I said

something. But this patient really reacted very,

uh, strongly and in quite a negative way. Um, and

I remember leaving that room like, oh, my gosh,

again, kind of, this is it. Like, this is the

final indication that I'm not meant to be doing

this. And I went to my novice director kind of

with my tail between my legs and was like, okay,

so this is what happened. Um, I'm feeling really

bad about it. I feel very conflicted and all these

things. And he sort of, in a gentle way, was like,

okay, well, what's going on? Like, why do you feel

this way? And what's. What's. What's at stake

here? And he said to me, or, uh, I said to him,

you know, well, I just. I want to be a good

chaplain. I just want to be a good chaplain to

these people. He was like, angela, that's very

noble, but I didn't send you there to be a good

chaplain. I sent you there to be a chaplain.

You've never been a chaplain before. How are you?

How could you expect yourself to be a good one?

Um, and that. I think that conversation with my

novice director helped me to really understand

this. This idea of, like, okay, like the mistakes

are gonna happen. And even, I think even the

professional chaplain staff who are there, who are

board certified with years and years of

experience, they were telling me, like, oh, yeah,

that happens all the time. Not that it's something

to. To think of casually, but it's like, yeah,

sometimes it just doesn't work. The connection

isn't there. Um, and I. I really had this

experience of thinking, like, God, if this is what

you want from me, then maybe, uh, like, my own

perfectionism and my own sense of, like, being a

people pleaser and trying to, like, get the best

grade in. In this thing is actually getting in the

way of that. Um, and I think that's what sort of

imposter syndrome is. It's like the thing that

tries to get in the way of what God is doing in

our life.

>> Julia: I remember, um, having a conversation with Harry,

who we did an episode with, and he was like,

sometimes God sends you people who you don't get

on with necessarily, but it's so that you can rub

against each other and you can make each other

smooth. And not necessarily that. That is a

person, but sometimes he puts us in situations

where he needs to, like, chisel away at something

for us to learn from it as well.

>> Angelo: That's right. Yeah. And I like that very much

because I think for me, the novishada and really

all of formation, and I think this is probably

just true of Christian life in general, is a kind

of slow chiselling away of the things that are

blocking us from accepting how madly in love God

is with us. And I think for me, that is the kind

of the perfectionism, the ache for, uh, to

impress, the ache to. To. To do well. Um, and

imposter syndrome, I think, is the is kind of the

symptom of that.

>> Julia: Quite often people have this kind of idea that

when you become a religious, it's like, God goes,

you're going to be religious now, and that's it.

And that's the kind of misconception of it. But

from what you're telling us, that's not your

experience.

So do you think there's other, like,

misconceptions about, um, vocation, certainty?

>> Angelo: Yeah, I think I can at least speak to the

misconceptions that I had about religious life,

about vocational discernment in general. Have you

seen the movie Conclave?

>> Julia: Yes.

>> Angelo: Okay. I love the scene from Conclave where Ralph

Fine's character talks about doubt and certainty.

And I really do think that certainty is a gift. It

can be a gift, but that faith doesn't work

necessarily in certainties. And I recall being in

grad school thinking like, gosh, God, when are you

going to tell me exactly what I'm supposed to do

with my life? Is it that I'm supposed to get my

PhD? Is it supposed to, uh, that I'm supposed to

quit everything and move to Africa? Or, like,

what's going on? You know? And rather than

thinking about certainty with regard to my

vocational discernment, I just kept looking for

clues. I just kept looking for small confirmations

so that by the time I applied to the Society, on

the day that I entered the Jesuits, I. It wasn't

that I was certain, but it was that I felt

consoled and I felt at peace and I felt confirmed

in it. And I. And I was excited. Um, and I

actually. I actually really do think that those

are kind of the. The antidote to the kind of

imposter syndrome that we're talking about here,

is that often, often for me, when I feel imposter

syndrome, when I feel this internal voice that's

like, you're not good enough for this. You're not

qualified. You don't have enough training.

>> Julia: You.

>> Angelo: You're gonna be bad at this. That leads me to

think a lot about, um, myself, how, like, uniquely

unqualified I am for something. How nobody else

could be as unqualified as I am at this. And

that's pride. When I think about the kind of

confirmation and consolation I had on becoming a

Jesuit. It wasn't anything to do with kind of my

own capacities or anything like that. It was about

like, wow, God's gonna do something here, and that

I get to have a front row seat to it if I

participate in that. Um, and that, to me, felt a

lot more Genuine. And I think St. Ignatius would

say, like, that's a little bit more of what we're

trying to discern when we're discerning what's

coming from the good Spirit or not. That there was

something about the Confirmation I felt about

becoming a Jesuit, knowing that I am, that I

struggle with all the kinds of things that I

struggle with, knowing that I am limited, knowing

that, that I am lazy and all of the things, even

in the midst of that, that God was saying, I'm so

excited that you're here. I'm really jazzed that

you answered the call and that was the thing that

I focused on.

>> Julia: I want to go back to just something you just said,

which was when you go, I'm the most unqualified

person in the room or in the world or whatever.

And you talked about actually that being your

pride. How do you discern what is humility, which

is what we're all called to, and self doubt?

>> Angelo: Ah, yeah. I love this question a lot because I

think on the one hand I could respond to my own

imposter syndrome and say something like, well,

no, actually I'm, I'm very qualified for this. I'm

in fact the right, exactly the right person to be

doing this at the right time. And I think both

responses, either the response to say, like to

totally negate the, um, the anxiety that I'm not,

I might not do a good job, and the, the response

that saying like, oh, I'm definitely not going to

do a good job because I'm so bad, I'm so unworthy,

I'm so unqualified, both are coming from the same

place, which is, in fact, I think the place of

that pride comes from. It's the place of thinking

that my own special talents or special

disqualifications are what define me. And rather

than thinking about, gosh, Lord, you have given me

this opportunity and I don't know if I'm ready for

it, but I want to walk into it knowing that you're

going to try to do something. And so I think for

me that often is the distinction between humility

and self doubt or humility and imposter syndrome.

That a genuine humility, at least as I have been

given the grace to experience, is a recognition

that, like, oh, uh, even if I was really qualified

for this, I couldn't do any of it without the

grace of God. And being able to recognise that and

walk into a situation knowing that that's true, I

think helps me to alleviate, uh, some of the

imposter syndrome because it could be totally true

that I'm unqualified. I have been so unqualified

to do a lot of the things I've had to do as a

Jesu. And yet. And yet the point is that I get to

labour with Jesus in the world.

>> Julia: It's kind of reminded me of the footprint poem,

where, like, you have the two footprints and then

when the man looks back, or the woman, it could be

a woman, um, looks back and he sees, like, there's

only one set. At his hardest times, that's when

God is like, that's when I picked you up and I

carried you.

>> Angelo: Right.

>> Julia: Rather than God disappearing, like, we can only do

what we can do because God is there for us to do

it.

Do you think Ignatian spirituality has helped you

navigate your insecurities?

>> Angelo: Totally, yeah. I mean, in many, many ways, I think

Ignatius and his thought and his spirituality and

the tradition that comes out of it, which belongs

certainly to the Jesuits, but also to the whole

church, um, I think saves me all the time. I think

it reminds me of both my worth and of the God who

is calling me to do these things. But I will say,

I think that one kind of practical aspect of this

is that indignation, spirituality discernment is a

team sport. Um, I can have the best ideas in the

world about what God wants to do and what I'm

doing and all these different things. But what's

really important for Ignatius is that discernment

happens when we talk to one another. So when I

talk to my spiritual director, or as a Jesuit,

when I talk to my superior and my provincial, as

they are missioning me to do things, um, it's

harder to be insecure about something. I realise

if it's like, okay, well, this is what I was

assigned to do, I'll say, even for now, um, in my

current job as director of campus ministry, I've

never directed anything in my life. And when my

provincial said this to me, he was like, okay,

you're going to go be a director. I kept thinking

about, um, all of the people who are now my

colleagues in this, who have their PhDs, who have

been in ministry for 10, 15, 20 years before being

director, um, I'm like, gosh, what am I doing?

Again, I am so uniquely unqualified for this. And

yet. And yet, um, through the discernment, not

only my own discernment, but the discernment that

my provincial was doing on my behalf, this

discernment that he made about the needs of the

province and in what ways I might be able to help

and in what ways I might be able to grow in this

job. I'm able to say with some humility, with some

fear and trembling, like, okay, I'll do it, Lord.

I'll try, you know, and it's been so lovely and so

graced, and I've made so many mistakes. Erm. So I

think Ignatian spirituality helps me also to

understand, like, okay, like, perfectionism is not

what God is after. Making mistakes is a part of

the natural human experience. And that God is so

much more interested in my flourishing than in my

kind of like, self punishment for the mistakes

that I make.

>> Julia: I love how you just said that your, um, your dark

or your director had said this, like, put you in

this to see how you could help, but also how you

could grow.

>> Angelo: Yeah.

>> Julia: Because when we first started talking and you

talked about why you wanted to be a Jesuit, you

were very. Just focused on how you could help.

>> Angelo: Yeah.

>> Julia: And you weren't very focused on the side of how

you could grow from it.

>> Angelo: Right.

>> Julia: And you've clearly learned a lot in the last six

years as well with that growing.

>> Angelo: Yeah, totally. I would say even, uh, like, I. I'm

so grateful for. For all that has happened, but I.

I often think, like, gosh, I'm. I'm receiving more

than I'm giving. I like the amount of, um,

personal growth and personal kind of closeness and

intimacy with Jesus in my mind far outweighs the

little things I can do to help other people. And I

once heard, actually I was on a retreat, I was a

Jesuit, say something like that. That for the

Jesuits, our work for helping others and for the

salvation of our own souls is the same work. That

it happens in the same way. Not, of course, that

we save ourselves, but that we participate in

God's saving action in us, in our growth, in our

flourishing, in our becoming more capable of

loving, in fact, through the missions that we are

given by helping people. And I think probably that

a lot of people of goodwill would find that that's

true. It's in giving that we receive.

>> Julia: If you can go back to when you were, um, feeling

like you've not been good enough for a role or

you're not sure about it. If somebody's listening

right now and they're feeling like that, what bit

of advice would you give them?

>> Angelo: Yeah. If somebody listening right now is feeling

the kinds of feelings like. Or the kinds of voices

I would say are like, you're not good enough for

this. You're not cut out. You will be bad at this.

You will fail. I would invite that person to

consider, in fact, like, what their closest friend

would say about them. And I don't know about

anybody else, but I think my sort of. My closest

friends wouldn't. Wouldn't let me talk about

myself in that way. And if. If my closest friend

were to. To kind of intervene in that in a way

that is to say, like, uh, yeah, you might not know

what you're doing, but it'll be fine, or you can

get through this, or I support you. What more

would Jesus say in the middle of that? What more,

uh, would the voice of the one who knows us the

best say? And in fact, the one who has kind of

authored this from before time say? I'm not sure

that that takes away the anxiety, but I think it

can put it in a different context. And also to

say, and I want to say this to myself all the

time, is like, not every anxious moment, not every

moment of imposter syndrome is in fact the

emergency that. That we think it is. It might just

be a chance to take a deep breath and then keep

going.

>> Julia: I also love that, like, after however long time,

like, I'm just thinking when I started my previous

Erm. My job, I had that feeling of feeling an

imposter syndrome. And then now, two years later,

or however long later, I'm like, actually, I can

do this job.

>> Angelo: Yeah.

>> Julia: Like, and it's not in an unhumble way. It's just

I've now got the experience to show that I can.

And I'm sure when I go into the next job, I'll

have that moment of being like, can I do this? But

then a few, like, months Erm. Years later, I'll

feel exactly the same way. It's just about taking

the time and getting the experience from it as

well.

>> Angelo: Yeah, that's. I think that's the funny thing

about, um, grace, right? Like, that grace is the

thing that really operates in us, that. That God

gives us this grace totally freely, and it does,

in fact, change and shape us. At least I have seen

it in my own life, that we do have the capacity to

grow as human beings, that we do have the capacity

to get better at the things we do, and that we

have, at least in most circumstances, we have the

chance to say, oh, actually, maybe that wasn't the

thing for me, and I'm going to try something else.

>> Julia: What would you say to somebody who's maybe

discerning right now, whether a vacation with the

Jesuits or a vacation of priesthood, religious

life, or even a vocation of marriage?

>> Angelo: Yeah, can I Say two things you can. The first that

I would say, and I have said this to many people,

is praise God. Um, that might sound very pious,

but what I mean is what a wonderful opportunity

to, um, be considering something bigger than

yourself. Religious life, priesthood, a new job,

marriage, having a child. These are things that

pull us as human beings, outside of our small

bubbles and into the wider community of. Of all of

us. So what a wonderful, wonderful thing. And I

hope. I hope that you, this person I'm talking to,

um, relish the. This opportunity. And then the

next thing, the kind of the. The thing that I have

to say, because I'm a Jesuit, um, is look for

freedom, is look for where you feel that God is

most freeing you to be and do and live and pray

the way that you have already begun to, and where

God is calling you to even more growth. I say this

a lot about, um. Uh, when I work with young

people, and particularly young men who are

thinking about becoming Jesuits, is like, if

anyone, if anyone, whether it's the Jesuits or

another religious order or a potential life

partner, is giving you the hard sell, take a step

back. If you feel in some way inhibited or

obligated or constrained in this, it might be that

God is inviting you to something else. Not. Not

for certain, but that, as I have found, that God

talks to me in freedom and that in increases of

freedom rather than increases of, uh,

restrictiveness. So, yeah, maybe those two things.

>> Julia: That's, uh, some very good advice.

Something you said earlier reminded me of this

priest that I met that, um, he kind of took that

next step and put in an application to. To discern

his vocation of being a priest. And even as it was

happening, he was like, well, this is. I'm gonna

do this. I'm gonna get a no. And then, like,

that's gonna be it. And then. So he put in his

application, and then they took him through to the

next stage, and then he started in seminary. He

was like, eventually they're gonna realise this is

the no. And he's even said, like, he got up to the

day of his, like, when he became a deacon.

>> Angelo: Yeah.

>> Julia: And even that morning he was like, right,

someone's gonna work it out. Now it's gonna be a

no. And then he had. Then he was ordained as a

deacon. And he said he had this, like, moment of

peace and, like, clarity come over him. And that

was the first time he felt, like, fully it was a

yes and not a no. Yeah. And I was just. I was

thinking that because quite often I think people

can Be quite scared to take that first step. Yeah.

Because they're not too sure. And, uh, a first

step means you can find out it is no or you can

find out it's a yes. And I'm sure at some point he

had imposter syndrome and probably he was looking

around the seminary at people going, well, that

person definitely notices a yes.

And I was just thinking that on our last episode,

we were looking at comparison and how. What role

do you think comparison plays in that? Imposter

syndrome?

>> Angelo: Yeah, I think comparison is one of the things that

either can induce, like, the catalyst for imposter

syndrome or it can be the thing that makes it

worse. Um, sometimes the young Jesuits in

formation will say something like, compare and

despair. This is our mantra. If I'm thinking,

like, oh, gosh, that guy that I live with is doing

so much better at philosophy studies than I am,

like, maybe I'm not meant to do this. Whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa, whoa. This doesn't sound like it's

coming from the Good Spirit. And then totally in

the opposite direction too. Like, oh, uh, that guy

is clearly not cut out to be here. This is like,

I'm doing so much better. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

whoa. What's going on there? What internal

movements are happening that God is perhaps trying

to work through? I think comparison can be the

enemy of humility, because God is so interested in

working on us in the personal ways that God does,

in our own capacity, in our own brokenness, in our

own strengths, that to look at another person and

see and see the way that God is working on them

and think, oh, well, why isn't God doing that to

me, is to ignore all of the work that God is doing

in each of us. And so I think. I think, yeah, I

think. I think comparison is, yeah, is a. Is a

thief of joy. Um, and yet I do it all the time.

And so it's like, I think it will be one of those

things that it'll take a lifetime of asking for

the grace not to compare. Um, and then hopefully,

hopefully participating in that grace to get rid

of.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you'd known about imposter

syndrome?

>> Angelo: If I was to talk to, um, myself as a novice, when

I was feeling that. That deep sense of insecurity

in the hospital room, I think. I wish that I had

known what I came to know later, that, um, God, in

fact, is still there and that God is still doing

something even when I make a mistake. And that in

fact, actually, like, the Scriptures are full of

stories of God doing Incredible things in the

midst of human frailty. And so I wish that I had

known about this imposter syndrome, that it's not

the end of the world, that I'm not, I'm not the

world's saviour, um, and that when I make a

mistake, God can still and does still do some good

things.

>> Julia: And what are you grateful for?

>> Angelo: I think in this moment I'm grateful for the

capacity to see how all of this has played out in

the last six years and then in the last 31 years

of my life. I'm grateful for all of my teachers.

My teachers is particularly of Ignatian

spirituality who have encouraged this kind of

development of a sense, maybe hindsight, a

development of a sense of what God is doing and

perhaps to be able to see in a moment like maybe

what God wants to do, um, in the future. Yeah, I

think that's what I'm grateful for.

>> Julia: Thank you for joining us.

>> Angelo: Thanks for having me.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this conversation is going to stay with me

because of the way Angelo talked about God being

able to use him and putting him into situations to

help him grow despite his self doubt. How about

you? We'd love to hear how Angelo's story

resonated with you. And why not also tell us if

you're facing an experience you wish you knew how

to look at differently. It might just be something

we can help with. You can find out more about this

and other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you

again for listening. I hope you'll join me again

next time on Things I Wish I Knew.