1 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:03,150 Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast. 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,243 Andy: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94. 3 00:00:06,243 --> 00:00:10,023 My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Eye's Summer Studio with 4 00:00:10,023 --> 00:00:12,213 Adam Macqueen, Ian Hislop and Matt Muir. 5 00:00:12,393 --> 00:00:14,703 We're here to discuss the events of the last week since the last 6 00:00:14,703 --> 00:00:15,873 edition of the magazine came out. 7 00:00:15,903 --> 00:00:18,663 And we thought we'd start off with one, which has been all over the news. 8 00:00:19,057 --> 00:00:24,007 It's the story of the Crewkerne Gazette, and the personal people behind it. 9 00:00:24,007 --> 00:00:28,295 So this is an online, comedy account, which is mostly consisting of AI 10 00:00:28,295 --> 00:00:32,285 videos, and the people behind it have been in the news, but it turns out 11 00:00:32,465 --> 00:00:34,025 we are already familiar with them. 12 00:00:34,385 --> 00:00:35,105 aren't we, Matt? 13 00:00:35,135 --> 00:00:35,795 We are. 14 00:00:35,863 --> 00:00:38,978 Matt: So I got interested in the Crewkerne Gazette in, November 15 00:00:38,978 --> 00:00:40,418 of, during the summer last year. 16 00:00:40,898 --> 00:00:44,888 And, mainly because I kept on seeing these videos floating around and various 17 00:00:44,888 --> 00:00:48,878 elements of the right wing press saying laudatory things about, as you point 18 00:00:48,878 --> 00:00:50,198 out, this new frontier of satire. 19 00:00:50,708 --> 00:00:54,698 And I was just curious to what was going on, who the people behind it were, and 20 00:00:54,698 --> 00:00:58,688 questions of that Ill, and I, dropped them a line in November asking if they'd 21 00:00:58,688 --> 00:01:01,298 be willing to answer some questions, and they responded saying they would be 22 00:01:01,298 --> 00:01:04,238 perfectly happy to answer questions, but they were very keen on preserving their 23 00:01:04,238 --> 00:01:07,958 anonymity because we live in a climate that is dangerous for free speech in 24 00:01:07,958 --> 00:01:09,728 Britain, as I'm sure we can all attest to. 25 00:01:10,103 --> 00:01:11,881 Andy: Private Eye, anonymous. 26 00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:12,606 Fair enough. 27 00:01:12,611 --> 00:01:12,681 You 28 00:01:12,871 --> 00:01:13,361 Matt: exactly. 29 00:01:13,361 --> 00:01:16,176 You can't, you are absolutely fine to be anonymous if you so desire, but sure. 30 00:01:16,296 --> 00:01:19,056 I was curious as to the motivation behind it and also fundamentally 31 00:01:19,056 --> 00:01:23,706 how they were funding a lot of this, because, making AI videos isn't free, 32 00:01:23,766 --> 00:01:26,856 and the better they are, the more they cost, the tokens cost money, et cetera. 33 00:01:26,856 --> 00:01:28,956 And so I just wanted to get a bit insight into that. 34 00:01:29,346 --> 00:01:31,881 And over the course of these conversations, I, 35 00:01:31,926 --> 00:01:33,036 got the vague impression. 36 00:01:33,036 --> 00:01:35,016 There was something a little bit odd about the whole operation. 37 00:01:35,016 --> 00:01:38,586 I couldn't necessarily pinpoint exactly why, but, the man behind 38 00:01:38,586 --> 00:01:42,096 the accounter who styled himself, Crewkerne man, and who appeared in 39 00:01:42,096 --> 00:01:46,206 various videos wearing a sort of Make America Great Again style cap, okay. 40 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:50,046 With a very heavy bid and aviator sunglasses, often AI 41 00:01:50,046 --> 00:01:51,246 generated videos themselves. 42 00:01:51,556 --> 00:01:55,272 he had spoken about having spent time in America getting in with a crypto crowd. 43 00:01:55,272 --> 00:01:59,382 And I was getting curious as to what his beliefs were and why exactly. 44 00:01:59,382 --> 00:02:02,712 Despite the fact that he said that he was very much in terms of, in favour of 45 00:02:02,712 --> 00:02:05,862 satire and making fun of everybody, why specifically all of the videos that he 46 00:02:05,862 --> 00:02:11,142 put out were pro reform and Tories and very much knocking anybody on the left. 47 00:02:11,142 --> 00:02:12,642 And I'm just curious as to what all that was about. 48 00:02:13,182 --> 00:02:16,542 Anyway, digging around and then over Christmas we completely coincidentally 49 00:02:16,542 --> 00:02:18,972 got a tip off from somebody who lived in Crewkerne and saying that, oh, by 50 00:02:18,972 --> 00:02:20,352 the way, this blokes a convicted Nazi. 51 00:02:20,752 --> 00:02:22,912 Adam, I believe, has the full rap sheet over there. 52 00:02:23,062 --> 00:02:24,052 Adam: Yeah, it's quite a long one. 53 00:02:24,592 --> 00:02:29,062 yeah, it involved, you can read actually, if you just Google this, the, the 54 00:02:29,062 --> 00:02:33,142 sentencing remarks from his, the last time he was, sent to prison on the 8th 55 00:02:33,142 --> 00:02:35,152 of December, 2016 by Mr. Justice Spencer. 56 00:02:35,572 --> 00:02:39,382 that was for the "cruel campaign, viral racist abuse, against, Luciana Berger, 57 00:02:39,382 --> 00:02:43,687 the Labour MP", but it was also was on top of, six offences of sending malicious 58 00:02:43,687 --> 00:02:46,837 communications and offensive harassment, all arising from false and hateful 59 00:02:46,837 --> 00:02:49,807 allegations against innocent members of the public that they were paedophiles. 60 00:02:50,047 --> 00:02:52,507 And there was an incident as well where he effectively made 61 00:02:52,507 --> 00:02:56,587 up a story about a pub, which was banning members of the armed forces. 62 00:02:57,047 --> 00:03:00,317 and that resulted in that pub having to close and then death threats and ars 63 00:03:00,317 --> 00:03:01,637 and threats being made against that pub. 64 00:03:01,637 --> 00:03:05,747 It was just fantasy in his head now, which would probably say at this 65 00:03:05,747 --> 00:03:08,297 point that Joshua Bonehill-Paine says he's now a reformed character 66 00:03:08,297 --> 00:03:11,777 and he greatly regrets all of this, and he has done his time in prison. 67 00:03:11,807 --> 00:03:15,437 But, you actually put a question directly to him, didn't you? 68 00:03:15,437 --> 00:03:16,037 In December? 69 00:03:16,037 --> 00:03:16,487 Matt: I did. 70 00:03:16,527 --> 00:03:16,637 Yeah. 71 00:03:16,967 --> 00:03:20,597 so we got this tip off and, I sent to the person to whom I'd been corresponding 72 00:03:20,627 --> 00:03:24,167 the self-styled Crewkerne Man, who has said that he'd been, communicating 73 00:03:24,167 --> 00:03:24,797 with me throughout this time. 74 00:03:25,457 --> 00:03:26,337 Are you Joshua Bonehill-Paine? 75 00:03:26,927 --> 00:03:30,107 Because we have received reports that you are, and he said that he categorically 76 00:03:30,107 --> 00:03:33,897 denied that the person I was corresponding with was Joshua Bonehill-Paine. 77 00:03:34,426 --> 00:03:38,056 Which obviously wasn't true or hadn't been true previously 78 00:03:38,056 --> 00:03:39,406 Adam: and hence I had correct you on your own question. 79 00:03:39,406 --> 00:03:42,766 What you actually asked him, 'cause this is gonna be important, was we have heard 80 00:03:42,766 --> 00:03:45,976 that person behind the Crewkerne Gazette is one Joshua Bonehill-Paine previously 81 00:03:45,976 --> 00:03:48,736 convicted of assignment to racial hatred and racially aggravated harassment. 82 00:03:49,286 --> 00:03:51,376 But you, were, you, were conversing with the Crewkerne Man. 83 00:03:51,376 --> 00:03:54,296 You asked if the person behind the website who identified as the Crewkerne Man. 84 00:03:54,326 --> 00:03:54,626 Matt: Yes. 85 00:03:54,626 --> 00:03:59,216 He said that he categorically denied that he was that person. 86 00:03:59,472 --> 00:04:02,303 And so therefore, when we published the story, having myself gone down 87 00:04:02,303 --> 00:04:06,143 to Crewkerne and received, multiple confirmation from drunk people in 88 00:04:06,143 --> 00:04:10,493 pubs late one evening, the, the person behind these videos very much was 89 00:04:10,493 --> 00:04:15,023 the same man that had been convicted twice, racially aggravated hatred. 90 00:04:15,833 --> 00:04:20,423 we printed the story, which point we were subject to, what, 91 00:04:20,663 --> 00:04:23,689 our legal counsel described as a wonderful bit of Chat GPT work. 92 00:04:24,863 --> 00:04:29,843 so yeah, this was a letter suggesting that the eye had fundamentally misrepresented 93 00:04:29,843 --> 00:04:34,013 the facts of the case because the person who had been corresponding with me was 94 00:04:34,013 --> 00:04:36,023 not in fact, Joshua Bonehill-Paine. 95 00:04:36,173 --> 00:04:38,843 It was the other person behind the Crewkerne 'cause that's also 96 00:04:38,843 --> 00:04:39,353 Adam: anonymous. 97 00:04:39,383 --> 00:04:40,223 Matt: Also anonymous, 98 00:04:40,433 --> 00:04:42,353 Adam: and offering no name or any evidence this person ever 99 00:04:42,353 --> 00:04:42,623 Matt: existed. 100 00:04:42,623 --> 00:04:47,273 But therefore that made our whole story completely unviable and 101 00:04:47,273 --> 00:04:48,503 therefore we owed him damages. 102 00:04:49,248 --> 00:04:53,423 I, I think we, went back to him with, a polite response, if I remember correctly. 103 00:04:53,423 --> 00:04:55,780 I think it wasn't AR versus press str. 104 00:04:55,823 --> 00:04:55,973 It was 105 00:04:55,973 --> 00:04:57,953 Ian: No, it was a moderate version. 106 00:04:57,953 --> 00:04:58,613 Matt: Yeah, exactly. 107 00:04:58,613 --> 00:04:58,913 I thought 108 00:04:58,913 --> 00:04:59,333 Ian: so of that. 109 00:04:59,773 --> 00:05:01,913 It, was not a convincing legal letter. 110 00:05:02,053 --> 00:05:03,443 Matt: It was not a convincing legal letter. 111 00:05:03,683 --> 00:05:06,053 And, fundamentally speaking, I think what's been interesting about the 112 00:05:06,053 --> 00:05:09,263 whole story and the subsequent he's going to become a counsellor, oh no, 113 00:05:09,263 --> 00:05:13,193 he's not going to become a counsellor, is that there is very little about 114 00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:16,283 the man in my correspondence with him that struck me as convincing the 115 00:05:16,283 --> 00:05:17,873 arguments as to why he was doing satire. 116 00:05:17,873 --> 00:05:23,103 Were not convincing his explanation as to the rationale for the satirical 117 00:05:23,123 --> 00:05:27,743 direction he was taking was not convincing his subsequent video that he made when 118 00:05:27,743 --> 00:05:29,093 he knew he was about to be a must. 119 00:05:29,093 --> 00:05:31,913 And he put a video on his YouTube channel saying, who is the crew? 120 00:05:31,913 --> 00:05:35,333 Kern man and voluntarily unmasking himself in what? 121 00:05:35,333 --> 00:05:37,583 And I encourage readers to look this up 'cause it's quite interesting. 122 00:05:37,793 --> 00:05:42,713 What's a very, bizarre AI generated q and a between an AI version of 123 00:05:42,713 --> 00:05:44,723 himself and an AI interlocutor. 124 00:05:44,783 --> 00:05:46,043 God knows why he chose to do that. 125 00:05:46,043 --> 00:05:46,493 Anyway, he did. 126 00:05:47,123 --> 00:05:51,563 it features multiple instances of him talking about how he was de radicalised 127 00:05:51,563 --> 00:05:55,073 in prison and how he underwent a variety of different home office mandated 128 00:05:55,073 --> 00:06:00,383 courses and has gone on to do training and workshops to speak about his own 129 00:06:00,413 --> 00:06:03,383 deradicalization journey, which let's be clear, is a good and positive thing. 130 00:06:04,043 --> 00:06:06,863 In the video that he put up explaining this, he illustrated these with 131 00:06:06,863 --> 00:06:11,513 completely AI generated images of him standing in front of a lectern reading. 132 00:06:12,503 --> 00:06:15,443 basically it, misspelt the word antisemitism. 133 00:06:15,503 --> 00:06:16,913 It was that poor of an AI thing. 134 00:06:17,333 --> 00:06:21,383 It used the logo of, an organisation which doesn't appear to exist anywhere. 135 00:06:21,863 --> 00:06:24,773 I contacted the home office about this citing that specific 136 00:06:24,773 --> 00:06:26,213 organisation that was in this video. 137 00:06:26,573 --> 00:06:27,263 Never heard of it. 138 00:06:27,263 --> 00:06:28,253 We have never done any work with them. 139 00:06:28,793 --> 00:06:30,683 I'm not suggesting that he hasn't done these courses. 140 00:06:30,683 --> 00:06:33,743 In fact, he's demonstrated proof of having certificates from Prevent. 141 00:06:34,133 --> 00:06:36,953 The certificates are from e-learning courses, which are 142 00:06:36,953 --> 00:06:38,393 an introduction to Prevent. 143 00:06:39,233 --> 00:06:41,153 There's, a lot of stuff here that I just find 144 00:06:41,603 --> 00:06:41,873 Ian: Yes, 145 00:06:41,873 --> 00:06:42,503 Matt: curious. 146 00:06:42,503 --> 00:06:43,973 I think it's probably fair to say 147 00:06:44,123 --> 00:06:44,483 Ian: Yes. 148 00:06:44,788 --> 00:06:46,853 and, our first response was. 149 00:06:47,459 --> 00:06:50,759 If you question a man and his first response is to send you a legal 150 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:56,729 letter, then maybe being an, an elected representative of the people, in which 151 00:06:56,729 --> 00:07:00,839 you're supposedly accountable to the general public is not a good idea for you. 152 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,979 Because even rehabilitated, the first thing you want to do is shut 153 00:07:04,979 --> 00:07:06,539 down any questions about yourself. 154 00:07:06,629 --> 00:07:13,229 And that isn't good for local government or for a wider role, such as he now has. 155 00:07:13,619 --> 00:07:14,219 Andy: I completely, 156 00:07:14,219 --> 00:07:17,909 Adam: we are in an extraordinary situation where we can say, putting aside the 157 00:07:17,909 --> 00:07:22,259 neo-Nazis, this man is still massively unsuitable for public office, aren't we? 158 00:07:22,259 --> 00:07:25,259 But I think, that's not apparently the conclusion that gave Bang Knock has got to 159 00:07:25,499 --> 00:07:28,709 Andy: this is the thing because Kemi Badenoch has a, different 160 00:07:28,709 --> 00:07:29,999 opinion, I think of all of us. 161 00:07:29,999 --> 00:07:33,989 I think all of us acknowledge that counsellors do a good and important job. 162 00:07:34,349 --> 00:07:38,069 Kemi Badenoch said he would just be sorting out parking, looking at bins, 163 00:07:38,533 --> 00:07:41,533 Nevermind the fact that this is what most people care about in their most immediate 164 00:07:41,533 --> 00:07:44,713 lives, and it's a sign of where the government is working with the actual bins 165 00:07:44,713 --> 00:07:46,033 have been taken away and empty dinner. 166 00:07:46,033 --> 00:07:48,163 That is, that's the point. 167 00:07:48,793 --> 00:07:50,863 that's what people get most angry about. 168 00:07:51,193 --> 00:07:55,213 So she has decided no, the bar for being a counsellor is, different to being an MP. 169 00:07:55,213 --> 00:07:55,273 She 170 00:07:55,273 --> 00:07:57,913 Adam: specific said, I have much higher threshold for what it takes to 171 00:07:57,913 --> 00:08:01,483 be a Conservative MP, but apparently not for a special advisor on 172 00:08:02,203 --> 00:08:05,293 rehabilitation and race issues, which is what he's now been appointed to. 173 00:08:05,293 --> 00:08:08,443 Andy: And the interest, what, there are lots of interesting aspects here, 174 00:08:08,443 --> 00:08:12,583 but the Times piece, which was about the Crewkerne Gazette saying how 175 00:08:12,583 --> 00:08:13,963 good the videos were from February. 176 00:08:13,993 --> 00:08:18,073 Yeah, I'm sure the times were not aware of any of the prison history 177 00:08:18,073 --> 00:08:22,173 and the neo-Nazi stuff, but they pointed out that, he had just had 178 00:08:22,173 --> 00:08:23,763 a Christmas card from Kemi Badenoch. 179 00:08:23,763 --> 00:08:23,853 Yeah. 180 00:08:23,883 --> 00:08:30,243 So she clearly, I think, has questions to answer about her opinions on 181 00:08:30,243 --> 00:08:33,093 rehabilitation because they seem to be absolutely all over the place. 182 00:08:33,143 --> 00:08:37,673 her, main charge was that what people don't like is, I'm quoting 183 00:08:37,673 --> 00:08:41,123 here, "hypocrisy where politicians ask for selective forgiveness for 184 00:08:41,123 --> 00:08:44,513 their own side while demanding tougher rules for their opponents. 185 00:08:44,513 --> 00:08:47,603 We should be tough enough to stand by our beliefs, even when there are politically 186 00:08:47,603 --> 00:08:51,893 inconvenient, wise enough to recognise rehabilitation and consistent enough 187 00:08:51,893 --> 00:08:55,733 to apply the same principles to friend and foe." But I think the problem with 188 00:08:55,733 --> 00:08:59,813 this is that she has quite clearly shown a bit of favouritism towards someone 189 00:08:59,813 --> 00:09:04,683 on the Christmas card list, or, if you remember the story of, Frank Hester, 190 00:09:04,733 --> 00:09:09,864 who made some really, appalling, racist comments about Diane Abbott, who had also 191 00:09:09,864 --> 00:09:11,994 donated 10 million quid to the Tories. 192 00:09:12,384 --> 00:09:14,574 When that story came up, she said, look, let's not go around 193 00:09:14,574 --> 00:09:15,654 looking for racism everywhere. 194 00:09:15,654 --> 00:09:17,334 The important thing is what's in someone's heart, whatever. 195 00:09:17,730 --> 00:09:20,310 it's got no internal logic to it, unfortunately. 196 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:20,730 I think 197 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:24,450 Matt: it's also worth pointing out that Kemi Badenoch is a terribly 198 00:09:24,450 --> 00:09:25,980 horribly online human being. 199 00:09:26,498 --> 00:09:30,278 I would be willing to bet, thinks that the output of the Crewkerne Gazette is 200 00:09:30,278 --> 00:09:33,278 exactly the sort of fast-paced satirical communications appealing to young 201 00:09:33,278 --> 00:09:35,648 online people that the Conservative party ought to be doing more of. 202 00:09:36,758 --> 00:09:39,968 and obviously I don't want to suggest that the popularity of that channel 203 00:09:39,968 --> 00:09:44,288 its content may have had any bearing on her and the party's decision to bring 204 00:09:44,288 --> 00:09:45,548 this man back into the fold again. 205 00:09:45,837 --> 00:09:47,228 But I'm also not, saying that 206 00:09:47,650 --> 00:09:52,960 Ian: making a, a passionate and earnest and committed case for rehabilitation 207 00:09:53,680 --> 00:10:00,130 is fine, but, rehabilitation straight into public office, slightly different. 208 00:10:00,130 --> 00:10:03,610 No one is saying never give this man a job again, he shouldn't be 209 00:10:03,610 --> 00:10:06,670 allowed to go around telling people that antisemitism is a bad thing. 210 00:10:07,060 --> 00:10:07,900 All for all that. 211 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,390 Do we have to have him as an official at a local level? 212 00:10:13,570 --> 00:10:14,560 Probably not. 213 00:10:15,010 --> 00:10:20,230 If then he resigns under pressure, not saying, everyone's got this all wrong. 214 00:10:20,655 --> 00:10:23,140 I really am, a better human being. 215 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,030 I would like to, help. 216 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:26,830 He resigns under pressure. 217 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,450 You then appoint him as an advisor At a higher level. 218 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,480 there are lots of jobs he could do. 219 00:10:34,510 --> 00:10:35,500 I am sure. 220 00:10:35,740 --> 00:10:40,960 Does it have to be to do with the offences he committed long term? 221 00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:42,850 They are quite serious. 222 00:10:42,918 --> 00:10:46,117 and there are a lot of them and they do involve violence, 223 00:10:46,713 --> 00:10:48,093 Is there not a job centre? 224 00:10:49,348 --> 00:10:51,363 does it have to be the Conservative Party? 225 00:10:52,293 --> 00:10:54,783 Andy: I'm afraid it's the last resort for the totally unemployable. 226 00:10:54,783 --> 00:10:55,473 That's the problem. 227 00:10:55,828 --> 00:10:58,798 Adam: This just seems like, you think all those, those many people who are 228 00:10:58,798 --> 00:11:01,678 lined up to be conservative candidates for the next set of local elections, 229 00:11:02,158 --> 00:11:04,588 and who haven't yet had to step down, what are they gonna make of that? 230 00:11:04,588 --> 00:11:07,078 It's ahead of a kick of the teeth from all the people that are actually gonna be out 231 00:11:07,078 --> 00:11:08,488 and shoving the leaflets through boxes. 232 00:11:08,548 --> 00:11:08,608 Yeah. 233 00:11:08,908 --> 00:11:10,108 And campaigning for you, isn't it? 234 00:11:10,108 --> 00:11:12,988 It's such an extraordinary way to treat your own supporters. 235 00:11:13,138 --> 00:11:16,678 Matt: so if you go back and look at the videos that the Crewkerne Gazette has 236 00:11:16,678 --> 00:11:20,828 put out and which unfortunately I have done, it's only been going for a year. 237 00:11:21,458 --> 00:11:27,188 it started, producing these AI generated satirical pieces in about May of 2025. 238 00:11:27,728 --> 00:11:32,078 And over the course of last summer, it was featured lots and lots 239 00:11:32,078 --> 00:11:35,438 of very pro Nigel Farage videos making Nigel Farage look very cool. 240 00:11:36,038 --> 00:11:39,338 lots of stop the boats rhetoric and narrative, lots of stuff 241 00:11:39,338 --> 00:11:42,148 about corruption under Labour and how Keir Starmer was weak and. 242 00:11:42,148 --> 00:11:42,628 ineffectual. 243 00:11:43,118 --> 00:11:48,728 And then basically since about February there has been a fairly, big shift towards 244 00:11:48,728 --> 00:11:52,466 pro Kemi Badenoch pro conservatism but apparently he was also being courted 245 00:11:52,466 --> 00:11:55,466 last year by reform because he had previously applied to them to be a 246 00:11:55,466 --> 00:11:57,866 counsellor and they got back in touch with him saying, we've got spaces. 247 00:11:58,046 --> 00:12:01,751 He apparently went through vetting and in November of last year, Reform, Reforming 248 00:12:01,751 --> 00:12:03,506 Reform vetting, it's a big thing. 249 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:03,806 Yeah. 250 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:04,196 So 251 00:12:04,483 --> 00:12:05,053 Ian: It can be better. 252 00:12:05,053 --> 00:12:10,313 Not did say that the, vetting procedure that, that, the other parties were using. 253 00:12:10,313 --> 00:12:14,063 The green party reform party is very, poor and there was a higher standard. 254 00:12:14,213 --> 00:12:16,553 So it doesn't look like it does it. 255 00:12:16,973 --> 00:12:17,783 Matt: there are questions to be asked. 256 00:12:17,783 --> 00:12:20,813 I suppose the, thing that, I find particularly interesting 257 00:12:20,813 --> 00:12:24,713 about this in terms of extremism now just be very, clear. 258 00:12:25,013 --> 00:12:27,623 Antisemitism is a terrible thing and it is good and proper to 259 00:12:27,893 --> 00:12:29,723 be stood up to and stamped out. 260 00:12:29,933 --> 00:12:33,383 What I do find curious though, is that throughout all of this, obviously he 261 00:12:33,383 --> 00:12:37,553 has his, he served jail time for insight to racial hatred and antisemitism. 262 00:12:38,074 --> 00:12:42,831 He's also done been convicted twice and served community service for other. 263 00:12:43,223 --> 00:12:44,543 Racially aggregated defences. 264 00:12:45,383 --> 00:12:49,673 Adam mentioned the full story about the pub banning service people. 265 00:12:49,943 --> 00:12:53,063 The coded to that story was that the pub allegedly banned service people because 266 00:12:53,063 --> 00:12:54,683 they didn't want to offend migrants. 267 00:12:55,163 --> 00:12:56,273 that was specifically 268 00:12:56,348 --> 00:12:57,908 Andy: That's what, that's the version he was putting 269 00:12:57,908 --> 00:12:59,153 Matt: that the version that he was putting out. 270 00:12:59,313 --> 00:13:05,643 this man has a long and storied track record of being an all purposes troll and 271 00:13:05,673 --> 00:13:09,903 specifically has also directed quite a lot of fairly vile racism and misinformation 272 00:13:09,903 --> 00:13:12,453 towards, the Muslim community. 273 00:13:12,903 --> 00:13:16,880 And again, after he was a master, he did, a surprisingly long and surprisingly 274 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,700 in-depth interview with the Times of Israel, which by the way also called him 275 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:21,230 Britain's premier satirists, sorry, Ian. 276 00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:27,470 Quite, where as evidence of his increasingly philos Semitic views, he 277 00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:32,240 posited that, a lot of the evidence that has been cited by organisations such as 278 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:39,050 the UN for Israeli war crimes, in Gaza, was the result of Hamas, manufacturing 279 00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:40,640 evidence using artificial intelligence. 280 00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:42,620 And he would know because he is an AI specialist. 281 00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:48,830 Again, I would question whether or not that statements of that ilk make someone 282 00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:51,628 suitable to be, an elected counsellor and 283 00:13:51,628 --> 00:13:57,439 Ian: on a general issue of rehabilitation, can about not, is unforgiving of 284 00:13:57,439 --> 00:14:02,174 those who, have suggested that net zero might eventually be a good idea. 285 00:14:02,174 --> 00:14:03,914 They're not allowed in the party. 286 00:14:04,784 --> 00:14:06,554 Adam: they're not to be forgive just referenced all figures such as 287 00:14:06,554 --> 00:14:11,204 Grant Shapps who was in the cabinet until, the last election and, 288 00:14:11,504 --> 00:14:12,854 it was to Gavin Barwell as well. 289 00:14:12,854 --> 00:14:15,374 Theresa Bar, Theresa May's, top advisor. 290 00:14:15,434 --> 00:14:18,344 They're now not welcome in the conservative fold 'cause they're, they 291 00:14:18,344 --> 00:14:19,604 don't agree with things that came from us. 292 00:14:19,883 --> 00:14:23,729 Ian: for those of us with a slightly longer memory, you think of Profumo, his 293 00:14:23,729 --> 00:14:27,269 rehabilitation was doing charity work in the East End for about four decades. 294 00:14:28,499 --> 00:14:30,209 And he was eventually allowed back. 295 00:14:30,269 --> 00:14:35,664 There was some, long-term evidence, that, he regretted his actions and 296 00:14:35,664 --> 00:14:37,044 he wanted to be a better person. 297 00:14:37,194 --> 00:14:41,498 I think it's quite quick, to allow someone to run for public office 298 00:14:41,618 --> 00:14:43,652 after crimes of this magnitude. 299 00:14:43,721 --> 00:14:45,551 Matt: I think that is not unfair. 300 00:14:45,551 --> 00:14:47,891 There are also some remarkable inconsistencies in some of the 301 00:14:47,891 --> 00:14:49,811 accounts that he's given over the course of the past week 302 00:14:49,811 --> 00:14:51,281 about his rehabilitative journey. 303 00:14:51,281 --> 00:14:55,631 There's, there was one interview, he was quoted in the BBC as saying that it 304 00:14:55,631 --> 00:14:59,531 was the murder of Jo Cox that first set him on the path to de-radicalization. 305 00:14:59,531 --> 00:15:02,231 'cause he realised that, fermenting hate had potentially 306 00:15:02,231 --> 00:15:03,611 very serious cons, consequences. 307 00:15:04,221 --> 00:15:07,961 Jo Cox was murdered in the summer of 2016. 308 00:15:08,621 --> 00:15:12,701 He was then tried for the Luciana Berger offences in and sentenced 309 00:15:12,701 --> 00:15:17,291 in December of 2016, during which sentencing the judge remarked upon 310 00:15:17,291 --> 00:15:20,141 him smirking throughout the trial. 311 00:15:20,291 --> 00:15:25,091 And Luciana Berger herself has said that he directed an anti-Semitic gesture 312 00:15:25,091 --> 00:15:28,331 towards the public gallery during that trial, which suggest that maybe that 313 00:15:28,331 --> 00:15:32,471 Dames scene moment post the murder of Joe Cox possibly wasn't necessarily 314 00:15:32,471 --> 00:15:35,831 strictly accurate or that he has misremembered the chronology that's there. 315 00:15:35,831 --> 00:15:36,101 There you go. 316 00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:37,601 That's a fair, interpretation. 317 00:15:40,081 --> 00:15:43,381 Andy: so section two of the podcast, Ian has regenerated as Helen. 318 00:15:43,501 --> 00:15:43,866 Hello Helen. 319 00:15:43,866 --> 00:15:45,751 Hello, Helen Lewis. 320 00:15:46,177 --> 00:15:48,622 Helen, you've seen the internet this in the last week, this study. 321 00:15:49,327 --> 00:15:50,857 Helen: I stared into the dark heart of the 322 00:15:50,932 --> 00:15:51,052 Andy: internet. 323 00:15:51,052 --> 00:15:53,077 You've actually been to one of the physical bits of the internet. 324 00:15:53,077 --> 00:15:54,007 Can you tell us what's going on? 325 00:15:54,037 --> 00:15:54,397 Helen: Yeah. 326 00:15:54,397 --> 00:15:58,627 Since we last spoke, I've been in, Michigan and Wisconsin, which are ground 327 00:15:58,627 --> 00:16:01,177 zero for the resistance to data centres. 328 00:16:01,227 --> 00:16:04,482 essentially, particularly the big AI companies and cloud computer companies 329 00:16:04,482 --> 00:16:08,802 need rack after rack of server and these very high, spec chips, and they have 330 00:16:08,802 --> 00:16:12,132 to be single story buildings, which means that the campuses are massive. 331 00:16:12,479 --> 00:16:16,302 The one that I went to in Eastern Michigan is 250 acres. 332 00:16:16,664 --> 00:16:19,784 Just huge, over a million square feet when it's, when it's finished. 333 00:16:20,054 --> 00:16:20,204 It's a 334 00:16:20,204 --> 00:16:20,894 Adam: single building. 335 00:16:21,134 --> 00:16:21,704 Helen: Single building. 336 00:16:22,364 --> 00:16:23,204 That's a, kind of campus. 337 00:16:23,204 --> 00:16:25,664 There's a couple of, I think there's three main buildings, but it's just 338 00:16:25,664 --> 00:16:29,954 these huge, luckily America's very big, but, otherwise there'd be real problems. 339 00:16:30,164 --> 00:16:31,484 Adam: All the insights on this podcast. 340 00:16:31,484 --> 00:16:32,894 America is very big. 341 00:16:32,894 --> 00:16:33,044 Peter, 342 00:16:33,464 --> 00:16:34,189 Helen: I was mention this before, 343 00:16:34,484 --> 00:16:37,154 Andy: I wanna check, I wanna break it down even more when I ask chat 344 00:16:37,154 --> 00:16:40,004 GPT to make me a, a dreadful video. 345 00:16:40,064 --> 00:16:40,364 Helen: Yes. 346 00:16:40,364 --> 00:16:42,014 Andy: Is this the building where it gets made 347 00:16:42,342 --> 00:16:42,717 Helen: really? 348 00:16:42,717 --> 00:16:43,047 Yes. 349 00:16:43,287 --> 00:16:46,077 Your request will probably get sent to the, the one, this particular 350 00:16:46,077 --> 00:16:50,457 one, is being used for Oracle, which is Larry Ellison's company, and 351 00:16:50,457 --> 00:16:52,197 then open ai, Sam Oldman's company. 352 00:16:52,407 --> 00:16:58,557 So yeah, when you ask chat GPT, you know how magnet work, then it will go 353 00:16:58,557 --> 00:16:59,847 and then it'll come back to you here. 354 00:17:00,237 --> 00:17:05,517 And it, we use also, about as much energy as one nuclear reactor can supply. 355 00:17:05,577 --> 00:17:08,007 That's the other thing about these, the water usage of them 356 00:17:08,007 --> 00:17:09,417 used to be a huge problem. 357 00:17:09,417 --> 00:17:11,697 It's become a smaller problem, but the energy usage is huge. 358 00:17:11,697 --> 00:17:16,797 The demand on the grid, some of these, are using like 10% of the grid demand 359 00:17:16,797 --> 00:17:18,267 in the place where they currently are. 360 00:17:18,447 --> 00:17:20,277 So they're these huge infrastructure projects. 361 00:17:20,577 --> 00:17:22,947 They become a huge issue in the midterm elections, which are coming 362 00:17:22,947 --> 00:17:27,357 up in November, because essentially about 70% of people are against them. 363 00:17:27,897 --> 00:17:31,437 Nimbyism is very potent force in politics as we previously discussed. 364 00:17:31,437 --> 00:17:36,177 And there are lots of farmers who basically say, I don't want a possibly 365 00:17:36,177 --> 00:17:41,937 noisy, not very many jobs, very energy draining eyesore on my land. 366 00:17:42,297 --> 00:17:44,877 And then there's this other thing going on too, which is these are, 367 00:17:44,877 --> 00:17:48,117 as you say, the first physical manifestation of the modern internet. 368 00:17:48,447 --> 00:17:51,957 And it turns out that a lot of people don't like the modern internet, and 369 00:17:51,957 --> 00:17:55,647 they certainly don't like the big men who are behind the modern internet. 370 00:17:55,647 --> 00:17:59,247 And this is a kind of physical way of saying, no, I don't like it. 371 00:17:59,247 --> 00:18:00,177 I don't trust you. 372 00:18:01,287 --> 00:18:03,237 and so the resistance to them has been huge. 373 00:18:03,327 --> 00:18:08,127 A couple of states have already declared moratoriums one, candidate for governor 374 00:18:08,127 --> 00:18:10,197 in Wisconsin's running on a, moratorium. 375 00:18:10,947 --> 00:18:14,067 and even Vive Ramos Swami, who you may remember, he was going to be the other 376 00:18:14,067 --> 00:18:17,037 half of Doge until Elon Musk went mine. 377 00:18:17,517 --> 00:18:17,607 Het. 378 00:18:17,607 --> 00:18:18,537 Matt: He lasted about a week. 379 00:18:18,542 --> 00:18:19,837 Helen: Didn't he think? 380 00:18:19,847 --> 00:18:21,357 He, not even, he was almost trust, like in his, is 381 00:18:21,872 --> 00:18:23,772 Adam: he the first thing that Elon Musk decided the government 382 00:18:23,772 --> 00:18:24,867 could do without the Spencer? 383 00:18:26,067 --> 00:18:28,467 Helen: he's running for governor of Ohio's Republican and he's now come 384 00:18:28,467 --> 00:18:31,857 to this thing saying, actually, these day centres, until they give everyone 385 00:18:31,857 --> 00:18:34,227 around them free electricity, we should have a moratorium on them. 386 00:18:34,917 --> 00:18:37,437 It's very difficult now in lots of states where they're being built 387 00:18:37,497 --> 00:18:39,957 about 1400 built in the US last year. 388 00:18:39,957 --> 00:18:40,077 Matt: Yeah. 389 00:18:40,077 --> 00:18:43,767 There's a story this morning I saw there, there are I think 500 bans now currently 390 00:18:43,767 --> 00:18:47,277 in operation across different states in the us different counties deciding 391 00:18:47,277 --> 00:18:50,487 unilaterally that they're going to try and put limits on the construction, whether 392 00:18:50,487 --> 00:18:53,487 banning them outright or stipulating that there have to be certain kickbacks. 393 00:18:53,547 --> 00:18:54,147 Helen: Yeah. 394 00:18:54,147 --> 00:18:54,157 Yeah. 395 00:18:54,295 --> 00:18:56,575 Andy: it is hard to work out sometimes whether the numbers are large or 396 00:18:56,575 --> 00:19:00,775 small, as in 1400 of them being built sounds like an enormous number. 397 00:19:01,135 --> 00:19:02,005 But in terms of. 398 00:19:02,693 --> 00:19:07,763 Overall electricity usage, I think it's gonna be about 1.5%, but then in America 399 00:19:07,883 --> 00:19:12,383 it could be going from 5% of electricity to 10% by 2030, which suddenly does 400 00:19:12,383 --> 00:19:14,007 sound like quite a substantial number. 401 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,900 Helen: for something that didn't functionally exist. 402 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:16,350 Andy: Yeah. 403 00:19:16,350 --> 00:19:17,100 Helen: Five years ago. 404 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,650 It's extraordinary like the footprint of these is enormous, and the 405 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:22,500 fact is that essentially the seven big tech companies have been with 406 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:23,820 their capital expenditure on these. 407 00:19:24,030 --> 00:19:27,900 That's… all those stock market prices you've seen that has been driven by this. 408 00:19:28,110 --> 00:19:29,310 They're spending billions. 409 00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:32,280 actually possibly, maybe even trillions on this in the next couple of years. 410 00:19:32,370 --> 00:19:34,710 Matt: I think one of the things that's important to remember is that we dunno 411 00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:38,070 how much energy these things use, but we simply don't because none of these 412 00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:39,240 companies have a duty to sell us. 413 00:19:39,875 --> 00:19:41,375 there are figures buried in projection. 414 00:19:41,375 --> 00:19:45,245 So for example, Google has said that it is unlikely to be able to meet 415 00:19:45,245 --> 00:19:48,545 environmental commitments that it made a decade ago because year on year as 416 00:19:48,545 --> 00:19:50,315 energy consumption has gone up by 38%. 417 00:19:50,825 --> 00:19:54,365 Now they don't have to specify that's because of AI or how much of 418 00:19:54,365 --> 00:19:56,885 that, the likelihood is et cetera. 419 00:19:56,915 --> 00:19:59,405 Andy: But it's not because of making those extra Google of the Day thing. 420 00:19:59,735 --> 00:20:00,635 Matt: No, it's all about that. 421 00:20:01,115 --> 00:20:03,575 Every time you click on the funny logo and you see the nice animation, 422 00:20:03,575 --> 00:20:04,835 it screws so it kills a tree. 423 00:20:05,765 --> 00:20:07,445 but, and again, the same thing for water. 424 00:20:07,445 --> 00:20:11,105 So there were no official statements for how much water these things 425 00:20:11,105 --> 00:20:13,445 require because obviously the technology changes and it's improving. 426 00:20:13,445 --> 00:20:14,405 And this is less than it used to be. 427 00:20:14,765 --> 00:20:18,035 But there were court documents filed in Virginia earlier this year 428 00:20:18,035 --> 00:20:22,055 between Google and this particular county for the potential construction 429 00:20:22,055 --> 00:20:25,895 of a set non-specified number of data centres, which projected water 430 00:20:25,895 --> 00:20:29,465 usage of between two and 8 million gallons a day of drinking water lot. 431 00:20:30,125 --> 00:20:33,320 Adam: And this is a huge deal in America, but particularly the sort of western parts 432 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,195 of America, which are basically desert. 433 00:20:35,585 --> 00:20:38,015 there are legal battles that have been going on for decades over whether 434 00:20:38,015 --> 00:20:40,400 California is stealing Nevada's water and, 435 00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:40,720 Helen: yeah. 436 00:20:40,725 --> 00:20:42,935 And the Colorado River level has been falling and falling. 437 00:20:42,935 --> 00:20:45,035 That water politics is, a huge, isn't it? 438 00:20:45,035 --> 00:20:45,095 Yeah. 439 00:20:45,125 --> 00:20:46,175 A deal in, America. 440 00:20:46,415 --> 00:20:46,895 But you're right. 441 00:20:46,895 --> 00:20:49,775 And they're spread out often across more permissive states 442 00:20:49,775 --> 00:20:50,975 or more farm-based states. 443 00:20:51,185 --> 00:20:53,855 But essentially there have been lots of pockets of local resistance. 444 00:20:53,855 --> 00:20:57,125 And because is this America, this is playing out through lawsuits, which is 445 00:20:57,125 --> 00:20:59,800 good news for journalists because it means there are lots of documents to look at. 446 00:21:00,185 --> 00:21:03,875 The New York Times had a, great story from Louisiana, and this actually 447 00:21:03,875 --> 00:21:07,355 reminded me of like a big steroidal American version of Tea side. 448 00:21:07,415 --> 00:21:10,835 The great private eye story of Richard Brooks because their Facebook's parent 449 00:21:10,835 --> 00:21:14,075 company was asking that local officials not only for a tax break to be smuggled 450 00:21:14,075 --> 00:21:18,245 through in a bill that was about fibre optic, cables, but also making local 451 00:21:18,245 --> 00:21:20,195 officials sign non-disclosure agreements. 452 00:21:20,825 --> 00:21:20,855 Ooh. 453 00:21:20,855 --> 00:21:24,005 'cause essentially the, bet from all of these tech companies, and correct 454 00:21:24,005 --> 00:21:27,275 me if I'm wrong on this, is that there aren't gonna be that many winners, right? 455 00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:27,285 Yeah. 456 00:21:27,665 --> 00:21:29,615 And they're particularly worried about the China will be the winner. 457 00:21:29,825 --> 00:21:33,365 So everybody is racing to build as much computer as they can, as quickly as they 458 00:21:33,365 --> 00:21:35,675 can and trying to just ram things through. 459 00:21:35,975 --> 00:21:37,655 Which is funny to me 'cause I went and thought, I wonder if 460 00:21:37,655 --> 00:21:38,735 this is happening in Britain. 461 00:21:39,035 --> 00:21:42,695 And all of our ones are like, we are gonna have a 10 billion pound one that's 462 00:21:42,695 --> 00:21:46,505 going to start building next year, and you're, and be finished by 2030. 463 00:21:46,505 --> 00:21:49,985 And you're like, who knows if they'll even be an internet or human race by, 464 00:21:51,575 --> 00:21:53,045 that's the American calculation, right? 465 00:21:53,045 --> 00:21:53,645 Build it now. 466 00:21:53,765 --> 00:21:54,065 Now, 467 00:21:54,515 --> 00:21:56,285 Matt: there's, Zuckerberg Point is interesting. 468 00:21:56,285 --> 00:22:00,005 He published an open letter about his vision for the future of AI overnight, 469 00:22:00,005 --> 00:22:02,735 which is basically him saying, no, it's all gonna be open source because 470 00:22:02,765 --> 00:22:05,615 he doesn't think that meta is going to win the frontier model battle. 471 00:22:05,615 --> 00:22:08,405 And so now he's going, no, we're gonna make it open to everyone because this is 472 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,385 a, a good, that has to recruit a humanity. 473 00:22:10,923 --> 00:22:11,463 How, yes. 474 00:22:11,463 --> 00:22:14,853 Helen: I don't wanna compete with open eye and anthropic because I think they'll win. 475 00:22:14,853 --> 00:22:15,003 Matt: Yes, 476 00:22:15,003 --> 00:22:15,393 Helen: exactly. 477 00:22:15,393 --> 00:22:16,833 Why do we all just play nicely together? 478 00:22:16,923 --> 00:22:19,053 Matt: But there was a largest sway of that, which is about data centres. 479 00:22:19,053 --> 00:22:23,493 And he speaks about them as a public good that we should all embrace and 480 00:22:23,493 --> 00:22:28,083 posits that in the future, they'll be great for people because, local areas, 481 00:22:28,083 --> 00:22:31,323 whether it be counties or states in the US will be able to extract rate 482 00:22:31,383 --> 00:22:33,153 to tax revenue from tech companies. 483 00:22:33,153 --> 00:22:34,173 So that'll make it okay. 484 00:22:34,473 --> 00:22:38,853 And he also commits that by 2030, all of Meta's data centres will put more 485 00:22:38,853 --> 00:22:42,873 water back into the system than it will extract, which I'm guessing is 486 00:22:42,873 --> 00:22:45,783 gonna be via the purchasing of water credits, which are probably gonna be 487 00:22:45,783 --> 00:22:49,293 like carbon credits, which as we all know, are definitely not bollocks. 488 00:22:49,983 --> 00:22:51,633 Helen: technically they could do that by just being neutral 489 00:22:51,633 --> 00:22:54,303 and then Mark Zuckerberg having a whittle in a local river. 490 00:22:54,933 --> 00:22:56,493 It's just, that's a free one out there for you. 491 00:22:56,493 --> 00:22:57,573 Mark, if you wanna take that 492 00:22:57,723 --> 00:22:57,963 Andy: also. 493 00:22:58,082 --> 00:23:00,063 Sorry, going on about the tax revenue. 494 00:23:00,333 --> 00:23:03,513 Facebook famously, they're so keen to pay more tax, aren't they? 495 00:23:03,513 --> 00:23:05,098 They constantly lobbying the government to pay more tax. 496 00:23:05,098 --> 00:23:05,108 It's 497 00:23:05,108 --> 00:23:06,003 Helen: property taxes. 498 00:23:06,003 --> 00:23:07,323 And that's the way most of these things work. 499 00:23:07,323 --> 00:23:10,263 So the one I was reporting on in Michigan has pledged a load of upfront 500 00:23:10,263 --> 00:23:13,203 money for the local fire department, for example, $7 million for that. 501 00:23:13,383 --> 00:23:16,563 But also they reckon we'll be paying even with the very healthy tax break, 502 00:23:16,563 --> 00:23:19,773 they've been after about a hundred million dollars a year in property taxes. 503 00:23:20,073 --> 00:23:22,533 a What's interesting to me about is that people don't believe 504 00:23:22,653 --> 00:23:23,583 that money will ever come. 505 00:23:23,823 --> 00:23:25,623 It's not like they've just gone, that sounds a lot of money. 506 00:23:25,623 --> 00:23:25,983 Yes, please. 507 00:23:26,153 --> 00:23:26,423 Andy: Yeah, 508 00:23:26,723 --> 00:23:27,473 Helen: They're like, hang a minute. 509 00:23:27,563 --> 00:23:29,243 you wouldn't be offering us that much money unless you're about 510 00:23:29,243 --> 00:23:30,833 to do something really shady. 511 00:23:31,253 --> 00:23:34,343 And just this low level of institutional trust that they'll ever see the money. 512 00:23:34,553 --> 00:23:36,923 Or if something goes wrong, as you say with the water table, 513 00:23:37,043 --> 00:23:38,513 but they have any recourse. 514 00:23:38,663 --> 00:23:42,593 So it has become this very physical manifestations of people's feeling 515 00:23:42,593 --> 00:23:46,883 that there are these huge, almost supernational organisations that are 516 00:23:46,883 --> 00:23:48,833 basically unaccountable to anybody. 517 00:23:48,983 --> 00:23:51,863 Adam: And what they also don't have is the usual payoff with this, this kind 518 00:23:51,863 --> 00:23:53,813 of thing, which is employment locally. 519 00:23:53,993 --> 00:23:58,193 Is it because, if you get an enormous Amazon warehouse or a mine or something 520 00:23:58,193 --> 00:24:02,183 else that's gonna blight your landscape, you do get an awful lot of local jobs. 521 00:24:02,183 --> 00:24:05,033 And that's not the case with these, they're, pretty much self sustaining 522 00:24:05,033 --> 00:24:06,173 once they're up and running, aren't they? 523 00:24:06,178 --> 00:24:08,033 Helen: They talk a lot about the construction jobs that 524 00:24:08,033 --> 00:24:09,533 will be, And that's true. 525 00:24:09,533 --> 00:24:11,843 The one in Michigan say it's claiming thousands of construction jobs 526 00:24:11,843 --> 00:24:14,003 and then they say about 450 jobs. 527 00:24:14,303 --> 00:24:17,453 But it's very hard to see long term given that the problem is that the AI 528 00:24:17,453 --> 00:24:20,123 industry has been ruined by its own rhetoric, which was like jobs, you won't 529 00:24:20,123 --> 00:24:21,473 need jobs, there won't be any jobs. 530 00:24:21,473 --> 00:24:22,613 We'll just be robots. 531 00:24:22,643 --> 00:24:27,293 So understandably people think, maybe you'll have a night watchman and someone 532 00:24:27,293 --> 00:24:32,393 like dusting, but it's not going to be highly skilled, well paid jobs. 533 00:24:32,843 --> 00:24:34,673 it's interesting, some places have accepted them. 534 00:24:34,673 --> 00:24:38,333 There's a town in Maine that has basically ruined the democratic 535 00:24:38,333 --> 00:24:42,143 governor's plant of like for a moratorium because they want one in their town. 536 00:24:42,143 --> 00:24:44,573 And the reason they want one is because there used to be a paper mill 537 00:24:44,573 --> 00:24:46,433 there that exploded accidentally. 538 00:24:46,853 --> 00:24:50,303 And this is now gonna be redeveloped, as an AI data centre. 539 00:24:50,663 --> 00:24:52,613 But that's another part of the story that you're talking about. 540 00:24:52,613 --> 00:24:55,283 Bits of America that de-industrialized in ways, particularly in the 541 00:24:55,283 --> 00:24:56,633 Midwest that were really painful. 542 00:24:56,633 --> 00:24:59,843 There was a car plant that employed loads of people and that was gone. 543 00:25:00,627 --> 00:25:03,267 They wonder whether or not is this like the phoenix rising from the 544 00:25:03,267 --> 00:25:06,237 flames or is this just another thing that's gonna come along and 545 00:25:06,237 --> 00:25:07,977 then leave us in the lurch again? 546 00:25:08,247 --> 00:25:12,567 So I just think it's become this real rallying cry in, in, in, 547 00:25:12,567 --> 00:25:14,187 quite a lot of states actually. 548 00:25:14,273 --> 00:25:16,883 Andy: would anyone like to put the, the Boulogne case for these things? 549 00:25:17,333 --> 00:25:20,363 Matt: okay, so a Boulogne case, if you listen to Google, the reason that we 550 00:25:20,363 --> 00:25:23,123 need the ai and the reason we don't have to worry about the environmental 551 00:25:23,123 --> 00:25:26,483 impact of the AI is because the environmental problem is gonna be sold by 552 00:25:27,053 --> 00:25:27,653 Andy: the ai. 553 00:25:27,683 --> 00:25:28,283 Matt: The ai. 554 00:25:28,313 --> 00:25:28,343 Oh, 555 00:25:28,553 --> 00:25:29,213 Andy: wonderful. 556 00:25:29,213 --> 00:25:31,373 Helen: the other Boulogne case is that your pension, if you have 557 00:25:31,373 --> 00:25:35,273 one, has gone up extraordinarily on the back of the US stock market. 558 00:25:35,333 --> 00:25:39,713 And that these companies, the, the tech firms are really the only big growth area. 559 00:25:40,403 --> 00:25:43,733 Matt: although it's also entirely possible that a good two thirds of 560 00:25:43,733 --> 00:25:45,803 them are going to fall very, flat. 561 00:25:45,918 --> 00:25:46,823 Is there is, it does 562 00:25:46,823 --> 00:25:49,343 Adam: feel very much like the.com bubble of sort the 2000, 563 00:25:49,373 --> 00:25:49,673 Helen: doesn't it? 564 00:25:49,673 --> 00:25:50,123 It's interesting. 565 00:25:50,123 --> 00:25:51,593 I've gone back and forth on AI as a bubble. 566 00:25:51,593 --> 00:25:54,503 I dunno if you have, and I think it's both incredibly useful and there 567 00:25:54,503 --> 00:25:55,463 are bits of it that are very bubbly. 568 00:25:55,463 --> 00:25:55,553 I 569 00:25:55,553 --> 00:25:58,433 Matt: think, I think there are two things that are parallel, true in parallel here. 570 00:25:58,433 --> 00:26:00,863 Firstly, that the technology is transformative. 571 00:26:01,073 --> 00:26:04,013 It does work and it is going to change the world and it's going to disrupt it 572 00:26:04,013 --> 00:26:05,813 in ways that we can't possibly foresee. 573 00:26:06,353 --> 00:26:07,883 And also that is not going away. 574 00:26:08,453 --> 00:26:11,933 And secondly, that a lot of the financing around it is dodgy as all hell. 575 00:26:12,203 --> 00:26:15,713 And a lot of it is going to fall apart, leaving a lot of very, very burnt 576 00:26:15,713 --> 00:26:19,253 fingers significantly in investment and pension funds potentially. 577 00:26:19,313 --> 00:26:19,493 Andy: Yes. 578 00:26:19,493 --> 00:26:21,983 Isn't this part of what happened with the.com bubble? 579 00:26:22,098 --> 00:26:23,808 a lot of people lost a lot of money. 580 00:26:23,898 --> 00:26:25,278 We all still use the internet now, 581 00:26:26,084 --> 00:26:29,054 Matt: The dotcom bubble was built on technology that was fundamentally 582 00:26:29,054 --> 00:26:31,934 good, it's just that people got over excited about it, utility and right. 583 00:26:31,934 --> 00:26:32,804 Mischaracterized it. 584 00:26:33,134 --> 00:26:36,524 And that kind of to a certain extent, parallel to what is happening now, 585 00:26:36,524 --> 00:26:40,454 the difference being that one might argue that AI is significant and 586 00:26:40,454 --> 00:26:43,094 transformative in ways far beyond that, which the internet was. 587 00:26:44,414 --> 00:26:44,804 Andy: there we go. 588 00:26:45,224 --> 00:26:48,464 If it's coming to the uk the good news is the UK has plenty of water to spare 589 00:26:48,464 --> 00:26:51,614 at the moment, so that's at least one worry we can take off the table. 590 00:26:53,847 --> 00:26:56,583 right now, let's come to the final story of this week. 591 00:26:56,583 --> 00:27:00,323 Weirdly, it slightly echoes, the first story we did today about the Crewkerne 592 00:27:00,323 --> 00:27:05,073 Gazette, but this one is about Jason Aday, who was Cambridge's youngest 593 00:27:05,103 --> 00:27:09,693 black professor when he was appointed in 2023, has just resigned, over 594 00:27:09,723 --> 00:27:12,513 accusations of plagiarism and plenty more. 595 00:27:12,573 --> 00:27:16,174 Besides, this has become an enormous story, partly because 596 00:27:16,174 --> 00:27:17,903 it's August it's a slight, 597 00:27:17,903 --> 00:27:20,078 Helen: it's a rollicking good yarn though, as Well, I just think, 598 00:27:20,238 --> 00:27:22,253 Adam: it's got some extraordinary detail in there, hasn't it? 599 00:27:22,253 --> 00:27:22,433 Andy: Okay. 600 00:27:22,943 --> 00:27:24,473 Helen: You were, so the moment that Carter Ruck entered the 601 00:27:24,473 --> 00:27:25,823 equation, I see all you, the 602 00:27:25,823 --> 00:27:26,243 Adam: ears 603 00:27:26,243 --> 00:27:26,633 Helen: pricked 604 00:27:26,633 --> 00:27:27,413 Adam: up, gloriously. 605 00:27:27,413 --> 00:27:30,443 At last we had Carter Ruck and, jolly and Mormon, the Good Law 606 00:27:30,443 --> 00:27:32,633 project on the same side, which is the point at which I thought, oh 607 00:27:33,743 --> 00:27:34,373 Andy: dear, then assemble. 608 00:27:36,263 --> 00:27:39,713 but also because it fits a narrative that. 609 00:27:40,697 --> 00:27:43,607 Is very popular, particularly on the right, that academic 610 00:27:43,607 --> 00:27:46,457 standards have somehow been sacrificed on the altar of woke. 611 00:27:46,517 --> 00:27:51,407 And, DEI, this quite American phrase that's been creeping in here. 612 00:27:51,947 --> 00:27:53,557 Diversity, equity and inclusion. 613 00:27:54,457 --> 00:27:57,157 so that has, that is what's given the story such, play. 614 00:27:57,337 --> 00:28:00,097 normally a Cambridge professor resigning over plagiarism would be interesting. 615 00:28:00,097 --> 00:28:02,827 It would get maybe a day's headlines, but then not much more than that. 616 00:28:03,073 --> 00:28:06,103 Helen: yeah, I think that's the thing that has turbocharged this story is the fact 617 00:28:06,103 --> 00:28:10,993 that he, all his work is in the sociology of education and a lot of it is semi 618 00:28:11,623 --> 00:28:14,953 autoethnography, by which I mean, he goes and interviews other black professors and 619 00:28:14,953 --> 00:28:16,813 people about their experiences of racism. 620 00:28:17,323 --> 00:28:19,993 So there is a feeling, which I think is probably justified in this case, 621 00:28:20,173 --> 00:28:24,313 that in this kind of post awoken time, Cambridge was very keen to have 622 00:28:24,313 --> 00:28:26,173 somebody researching these issues. 623 00:28:26,203 --> 00:28:28,663 And they maybe didn't ask as hard questions as they should 624 00:28:28,663 --> 00:28:30,853 have done about whether or not the research really stood up. 625 00:28:31,303 --> 00:28:34,156 There's also the, complication that really, the person who broke this 626 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:38,176 was a blogger called Nathan Kauf, who is very big into the hereditary 627 00:28:38,176 --> 00:28:40,516 account of IQ and racial differences. 628 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:43,426 And he has a quote, here we go, "in a meritocracy, Harvard faculty would 629 00:28:43,426 --> 00:28:46,186 be recruited from the best of the best students, which means the number 630 00:28:46,186 --> 00:28:50,176 of black professors would approach 0%. ' Blacks' would disappear from 631 00:28:50,176 --> 00:28:53,176 almost all high profile positions outside sports and entertainment". 632 00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:56,506 So when that's the guy having a go, the black professor, a lot of people 633 00:28:56,506 --> 00:28:58,186 are like, just switch their brains off. 634 00:28:58,186 --> 00:28:59,716 'cause they go, oh, okay, I see what's happening. 635 00:28:59,716 --> 00:28:59,806 And 636 00:28:59,806 --> 00:29:01,426 Adam: Kaufman's has already been kicked outta Cambridge University, 637 00:29:01,426 --> 00:29:02,476 hasn't he, for expressing 638 00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:02,716 Helen: things 639 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:02,986 Adam: like that. 640 00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:03,051 he 641 00:29:03,056 --> 00:29:04,576 Helen: through a tribune, he's now in gen. Yeah. 642 00:29:04,576 --> 00:29:09,196 So I think there was a, a lot of people were just assuming that this was a, an 643 00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:11,086 unfair attack on a black, a academic. 644 00:29:11,266 --> 00:29:13,846 Now as it turns out, the guy is, I've I a lot theism 645 00:29:14,291 --> 00:29:16,336 Adam: and the academic stuff is the least interesting bit of it. 646 00:29:16,336 --> 00:29:16,966 Isn't it mean 647 00:29:16,966 --> 00:29:19,786 Matt: that, I mean the the stuff in the autobiography 648 00:29:19,838 --> 00:29:20,536 Adam: running is just amazing. 649 00:29:20,536 --> 00:29:23,086 600 miles in six days on a broken leg. 650 00:29:23,086 --> 00:29:24,226 That was one of them, wasn't it? 651 00:29:24,226 --> 00:29:25,396 Helen: 600 miles in six days. 652 00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:27,526 He then said, actually I had a rest day in between them. 653 00:29:27,526 --> 00:29:29,446 'cause people who pointed out this were making one of the greatest 654 00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:30,826 endurant athletes of our age. 655 00:29:30,856 --> 00:29:32,296 Adam: It's just thing you might have heard about, isn't it? 656 00:29:32,456 --> 00:29:34,996 Helen: He ran a kind of Eddie Izard style level of marathons. 657 00:29:35,086 --> 00:29:37,186 In which he claimed that at some point he fractured his leg and 658 00:29:37,186 --> 00:29:38,776 nonetheless he kept on running. 659 00:29:38,866 --> 00:29:41,836 Which again, people who run marathons are obviously mad in my view. 660 00:29:42,766 --> 00:29:43,306 My husband here. 661 00:29:43,576 --> 00:29:47,356 But, but doing so on a, yeah, there was, he claimed he had epilepsy. 662 00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:48,496 He claimed he had a brain tumour. 663 00:29:48,496 --> 00:29:50,896 He claimed in a proposal for the book, he had testicular cancer. 664 00:29:51,046 --> 00:29:54,856 He either had, he was either the un luckiest man in the world or. 665 00:29:55,550 --> 00:29:56,510 He'd made it all up. 666 00:29:57,380 --> 00:29:59,990 Adam: And it was extraordinary because the, the pitch for the book carried a, 667 00:29:59,990 --> 00:30:02,540 a set of extraordinary, amazing stories. 668 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:05,170 And then the book manuscript, when it arrived. 669 00:30:05,380 --> 00:30:07,900 Harried a totally different set of extraordinary stories 670 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:08,860 in many cases, didn't it? 671 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:10,180 there were whole bits that were missing and 672 00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:10,690 Helen: Yeah. 673 00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:10,700 Adam: Yeah. 674 00:30:10,786 --> 00:30:13,641 Helen: But the thing that's interesting to me is first of all, the fact that it was 675 00:30:13,641 --> 00:30:17,331 a real lesson in where pe on what basis people make their judgements about whether 676 00:30:17,331 --> 00:30:20,211 a story is true or not, which is often about the messenger as much as a message. 677 00:30:20,481 --> 00:30:24,111 And the second was that this, one of our, poor Foot award nominees this show was the 678 00:30:24,111 --> 00:30:25,911 Salt Path investigation by the Observer. 679 00:30:26,181 --> 00:30:30,411 Yet another sign that actually you can write any bollocks in a memoir. 680 00:30:30,561 --> 00:30:31,341 And that was interesting. 681 00:30:31,341 --> 00:30:34,521 We talked about the salt path at a time, moth in that he's claimed to 682 00:30:34,521 --> 00:30:37,551 have a really unpleasant degenerative disease, which nonetheless, 683 00:30:37,551 --> 00:30:37,796 Adam: with cobe 684 00:30:38,751 --> 00:30:38,791 Helen: or degeneration. 685 00:30:38,791 --> 00:30:38,801 Yeah. 686 00:30:38,871 --> 00:30:42,471 Which nonetheless, a decade later he's has not died from. 687 00:30:43,071 --> 00:30:45,471 And, but that's the kind of thing you can't, how many people have 688 00:30:45,471 --> 00:30:49,971 really got the coons to go, is your terminal illness actually that bad? 689 00:30:50,031 --> 00:30:51,681 And I think that's the case that's happened with him. 690 00:30:51,681 --> 00:30:54,651 There is an enormous taboo on questioning people's very 691 00:30:54,651 --> 00:30:55,971 painful personal experiences. 692 00:30:56,241 --> 00:30:58,431 And there must have been a million stories you've done in the eye of 693 00:30:58,431 --> 00:31:02,841 about people like child abuse victims where people do not want to say. 694 00:31:03,663 --> 00:31:06,663 At this point, has this detail crossed into the land of fiction, 695 00:31:06,663 --> 00:31:07,683 like Carl Beach, for example? 696 00:31:07,833 --> 00:31:09,760 Adam: the Carl Beach was originally known as Nick. 697 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,690 He was the anonymous at that point, person who made a load of claims through, a 698 00:31:13,690 --> 00:31:17,500 very dodgy news agency called Zaro, which one by a strange man called Mark Watt. 699 00:31:17,954 --> 00:31:20,918 it was in the wake of kind of Jimmy Sil and all of those kind 700 00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:23,828 of things coming tumbling out of, of various dark cupboards. 701 00:31:24,298 --> 00:31:27,844 And, there was a kind of public mood that was ready to accept the idea of Defiles 702 00:31:27,844 --> 00:31:28,984 is what they were called at the time. 703 00:31:28,989 --> 00:31:29,289 That's 704 00:31:29,329 --> 00:31:29,589 Helen: a great phrase. 705 00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:33,214 Adam: and, and Cole Beach gave them the most vi of, paedophiles. 706 00:31:33,364 --> 00:31:36,814 he really, Edward Heath was in there, Harvey Proctor was in there, Lord 707 00:31:36,814 --> 00:31:40,564 Phil Marshall, Bram, or, Leon, Brit, all sorts of names, which he seemed 708 00:31:40,564 --> 00:31:43,594 to pluck from various corners of the internet and extraordinary claims, 709 00:31:43,594 --> 00:31:47,074 not just about sexual abuse, it was routine sexual abuse of children, but 710 00:31:47,344 --> 00:31:51,184 murders to order, and people being castrated and strangled and extraordinary 711 00:31:51,184 --> 00:31:53,314 things, none of which were true at all. 712 00:31:53,314 --> 00:31:56,494 And actually turned out to be the complete fantasies of Carl Beach, who himself, 713 00:31:56,944 --> 00:32:01,744 went to prison for, for possession of, of, of child abuse material himself. 714 00:32:02,208 --> 00:32:05,520 there is this extraordinary thing sometimes where claims become 715 00:32:05,793 --> 00:32:07,117 too extraordinary to check. 716 00:32:07,687 --> 00:32:10,147 in that case, one, one of the basic things which b BBC News Night managed 717 00:32:10,147 --> 00:32:13,267 to knock down was one, one of Carl Beach's claims was that a child had 718 00:32:13,267 --> 00:32:17,617 been, deliberately run over in Kingston on Thames as a, as, as revenge for 719 00:32:17,767 --> 00:32:19,357 speaking out against this Peter Fall ring. 720 00:32:19,513 --> 00:32:22,495 And they did the basic checks of going back, the year and I think two years 721 00:32:22,495 --> 00:32:25,375 to either side of, when he claimed this had happened, to find out whether 722 00:32:25,375 --> 00:32:29,035 any small children had been killed in road accidents in Kingston, on Thas. 723 00:32:29,095 --> 00:32:29,755 No, nothing. 724 00:32:29,755 --> 00:32:30,505 Nothing on the record. 725 00:32:30,505 --> 00:32:33,745 So that's the sort of basic, like grunt work you have to do. 726 00:32:33,745 --> 00:32:38,635 And we do that as journalists, but I don't think publishers of nonfiction 727 00:32:38,835 --> 00:32:41,085 , put the hours in on, on, and maybe they will have to start doing. 728 00:32:41,085 --> 00:32:41,943 So now, I don't know. 729 00:32:42,045 --> 00:32:43,665 Andy: What about universities? 730 00:32:43,665 --> 00:32:47,161 What about Cambridge University in this case, do they have a responsibility 731 00:32:47,161 --> 00:32:48,481 to check out these claims? 732 00:32:48,541 --> 00:32:51,811 Helen: What's really fascinating is that he got his PhD from, Liverpool, 733 00:32:51,811 --> 00:32:54,511 John Moore's University, and now it looks as though there are some 734 00:32:54,511 --> 00:32:57,447 very, Similar segments in that. 735 00:32:57,447 --> 00:33:01,047 Two things that have previously been published, and I'm surprised, every 736 00:33:01,047 --> 00:33:03,477 undergraduate essay is run through a programme called Turn It In. 737 00:33:03,687 --> 00:33:04,527 A plagiarism checker. 738 00:33:04,767 --> 00:33:07,407 Now, you'd imagine that everybody's running everything through pangram, 739 00:33:07,407 --> 00:33:10,497 which is the most well known of the AI checker tools, but they 740 00:33:10,497 --> 00:33:11,427 don't seem to have done that. 741 00:33:11,427 --> 00:33:15,237 They issued a statement saying, we had a, we had investigated it 742 00:33:15,237 --> 00:33:17,307 confidentially, and his PhD still stands. 743 00:33:18,057 --> 00:33:20,547 The, moment that really kind of tiptoed there was that Cambridge 744 00:33:20,547 --> 00:33:22,797 said that they were doing a formal investigation, and that's the point 745 00:33:22,797 --> 00:33:26,817 in which he released via the Good Law Project, an extraordinary statement that 746 00:33:26,817 --> 00:33:28,527 basically admitted absolutely nothing. 747 00:33:28,527 --> 00:33:32,247 But said, these attacks have been so vile that I'm withdrawing from public 748 00:33:32,247 --> 00:33:35,187 life, which to me just says that he doesn't have a great deal of insight 749 00:33:36,327 --> 00:33:38,727 into his, his condition as it were. 750 00:33:38,727 --> 00:33:41,517 Matt: I think it's possible that, multiple things can be true. 751 00:33:41,517 --> 00:33:47,067 That, Jason Ade is a, strange, possibly fantastical individual with an odd 752 00:33:47,067 --> 00:33:49,887 sense of his own life and his own achievements that doesn't necessarily 753 00:33:49,887 --> 00:33:52,227 match up to accepted reality. 754 00:33:52,557 --> 00:33:56,067 And also that certain sections of the press have had an absolute field day 755 00:33:56,067 --> 00:34:00,717 with this and have used it to run an agenda that is, coincidentally and 756 00:34:00,717 --> 00:34:03,957 conveniently very close to the one that they like to run about non-white 757 00:34:03,957 --> 00:34:06,417 people for the rest of the year as well, even when it's not August. 758 00:34:06,477 --> 00:34:06,657 Andy: Yeah. 759 00:34:06,842 --> 00:34:08,484 we had this with the police recently. 760 00:34:08,484 --> 00:34:08,604 Yeah. 761 00:34:09,029 --> 00:34:14,814 the, the idea that the police are somehow institutionally, hostile to 762 00:34:14,814 --> 00:34:16,794 white people was, a narrative earlier on. 763 00:34:16,794 --> 00:34:20,694 And the, and there are, plenty of examples where that is simply not the case. 764 00:34:20,754 --> 00:34:20,844 Helen: Yes. 765 00:34:21,024 --> 00:34:23,724 And it's not purely, this isn't like a purely left wing sin. 766 00:34:23,724 --> 00:34:26,484 It's just always interesting to me to ask what are the narratives that are 767 00:34:26,484 --> 00:34:28,224 very hard to question any society. 768 00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:30,804 You mentioned Carl Beach, the podcast a couple of times ago. 769 00:34:30,804 --> 00:34:33,144 We were talking about Rupert Lowe's grooming, independent 770 00:34:33,144 --> 00:34:34,074 grooming gang inquiry. 771 00:34:34,074 --> 00:34:34,164 Yes. 772 00:34:34,574 --> 00:34:38,184 Which, contained alongside things I'm sure absolutely did happen, extremely 773 00:34:38,184 --> 00:34:42,054 fantastical snuff elements that could have been checked by saying, did 774 00:34:42,054 --> 00:34:44,004 someone die at this time in this place? 775 00:34:44,064 --> 00:34:44,184 Yeah. 776 00:34:44,364 --> 00:34:47,544 So the problem is again, it's like, what do people want to believe? 777 00:34:47,544 --> 00:34:49,554 What's the narrative that people have already accepted? 778 00:34:49,734 --> 00:34:51,624 And then the facts are always secondary. 779 00:34:51,624 --> 00:34:53,544 Someone once to described to me that journalism is the war 780 00:34:53,544 --> 00:34:54,924 of facts against narrative. 781 00:34:55,314 --> 00:34:57,654 And I think that's, that is of something that you should 782 00:34:57,654 --> 00:34:59,304 really always bear in mind. 783 00:34:59,484 --> 00:35:01,164 Adam: There does appear to be some very basic stuff. 784 00:35:01,164 --> 00:35:03,084 Again, in the case of Jason Ndo, that Cambridge could have checked 785 00:35:03,084 --> 00:35:04,164 at the time of employing him. 786 00:35:04,164 --> 00:35:08,260 It was professorships that were claimed links to o other institutions as well, 787 00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:11,200 which would seem like your sort of pretty basic due diligence that you 788 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,750 might pick up the phone to someone if you were giving them a professorship. 789 00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:13,840 I, 790 00:35:13,935 --> 00:35:16,660 Helen: I think everybody always assumes that someone else will have checked. 791 00:35:17,458 --> 00:35:19,918 And I think that's the kind of thing that we have to fight against. 792 00:35:20,008 --> 00:35:23,068 Adam: you also don't naturally, as a human being, as, as a journalist or as 793 00:35:23,068 --> 00:35:25,708 an academic or anything, assume that someone is telling you a massive great 794 00:35:25,708 --> 00:35:27,358 whopper every time they speak to you. 795 00:35:27,358 --> 00:35:29,608 Do you we're programmed 796 00:35:29,668 --> 00:35:29,788 Helen: to 797 00:35:29,788 --> 00:35:30,448 Adam: accept 798 00:35:30,898 --> 00:35:31,048 Helen: Yeah. 799 00:35:32,068 --> 00:35:33,508 Matt: This, has anyone ever checked for your degree? 800 00:35:33,508 --> 00:35:34,288 Certificates? 801 00:35:34,438 --> 00:35:36,058 Has anyone ever asked you to provide them? 802 00:35:36,058 --> 00:35:36,263 Have, have. 803 00:35:36,503 --> 00:35:36,953 I didn't even know if 804 00:35:36,953 --> 00:35:38,578 Andy: I've got the certificate still. 805 00:35:38,758 --> 00:35:39,058 I wouldn't 806 00:35:39,748 --> 00:35:40,768 Helen: don't where to look for it. 807 00:35:40,768 --> 00:35:42,568 I did because when I applied for my American Visa, you 808 00:35:42,568 --> 00:35:43,408 have to go and find them. 809 00:35:43,408 --> 00:35:45,898 So I had to be like, do I remember really what I did for my A Levels? 810 00:35:46,143 --> 00:35:46,588 Adam: I've got one. 811 00:35:46,588 --> 00:35:49,508 'cause proudly, like my first ever published byline in journalism, 812 00:35:49,508 --> 00:35:51,658 Macqueen is spelled wrong, so ah, great. 813 00:35:51,658 --> 00:35:52,943 Helen: But there's loads of this stuff about isn't there, do you 814 00:35:52,978 --> 00:35:56,398 remember Ian Duncan Smith claimed in a university degree, its, he'd 815 00:35:56,398 --> 00:35:58,348 done a short course, Jeffrey Archer. 816 00:35:58,438 --> 00:36:00,958 Adam: the absolute classic is Jeffrey Archer, who, yeah, I mean if you just 817 00:36:00,958 --> 00:36:03,902 say things confidently enough you can get away with, went to a different 818 00:36:03,902 --> 00:36:06,632 school to the one he implies everyone went to two different universities. 819 00:36:06,842 --> 00:36:09,842 he claimed to have attended as, a student when he hadn't. 820 00:36:10,142 --> 00:36:11,972 And my favourite one, Jeffrey Arch, was when he was elected 821 00:36:11,972 --> 00:36:15,062 as an MP at 29, for LAX in 1969. 822 00:36:15,062 --> 00:36:17,822 He went around claiming that he was the youngest MP in the Commons in the 823 00:36:17,822 --> 00:36:22,862 very same year that Berna Devlin had very famously been elected as an MP 824 00:36:22,862 --> 00:36:24,722 in Northern Ireland at the age of 21. 825 00:36:24,932 --> 00:36:30,122 And it just it was just people just wrote it down and Karen, and he sustained an 826 00:36:30,122 --> 00:36:33,002 entire career on that right up until the point he was jailed for perjury. 827 00:36:33,002 --> 00:36:33,422 Helen: right up. 828 00:36:33,437 --> 00:36:33,992 And that's the thing 829 00:36:33,992 --> 00:36:36,932 Adam: Muhammad fired was a man who couldn't be honest about anything. 830 00:36:36,932 --> 00:36:39,392 He couldn't his name, his age, the source of his fortune. 831 00:36:39,392 --> 00:36:40,442 Absolutely anything. 832 00:36:41,132 --> 00:36:44,162 and was using that as a way of kind of bla with that and legal threats as well. 833 00:36:44,162 --> 00:36:46,832 Which again, we come back to Jason Harvey immediately calling in Carter Ruck. 834 00:36:46,832 --> 00:36:49,412 It was certainly something that Jeffrey Archer was prone to throughout 835 00:36:49,412 --> 00:36:50,612 his su his political career. 836 00:36:52,022 --> 00:36:55,802 f Fayed was using it as cover for the most egregiously disgusting 837 00:36:55,802 --> 00:36:58,442 behaviour, rapes and sexual assaults as well as all the other 838 00:36:58,442 --> 00:36:59,792 criminalities he was responsible for. 839 00:36:59,862 --> 00:37:00,612 Helen: I think you are right. 840 00:37:00,612 --> 00:37:03,252 I think there has been an agenda behind it, but there are also things that the 841 00:37:03,252 --> 00:37:05,772 right has raised here that we should acknowledge were correct and true. 842 00:37:05,922 --> 00:37:08,382 One of which is the fact that a journalist tried to look into him 843 00:37:08,382 --> 00:37:09,792 and was warned off by the police. 844 00:37:10,242 --> 00:37:10,302 Yeah. 845 00:37:10,302 --> 00:37:11,622 And what are the police doing? 846 00:37:11,622 --> 00:37:14,202 So he put his right to reply in essentially, and the police were 847 00:37:14,202 --> 00:37:15,762 like, please stop harassing this man. 848 00:37:16,272 --> 00:37:16,872 Which is just, and 849 00:37:16,872 --> 00:37:21,127 Adam: it was the Times higher educational supplement, it wasn't racistly or acting 850 00:37:21,377 --> 00:37:22,962 Helen: Storm Front or the National Enquirer. 851 00:37:22,962 --> 00:37:23,202 No. 852 00:37:23,907 --> 00:37:27,147 not to be like pleading in, service of journalism, but the world is often 853 00:37:27,147 --> 00:37:30,837 quite hostile to the being told that the emperor has no clothes and they're 854 00:37:30,837 --> 00:37:33,237 often very good reasons not to point out the emperor has no clothes. 855 00:37:33,417 --> 00:37:37,257 And I think this story has suggested some of the dynamics that underlie that. 856 00:37:38,208 --> 00:37:40,878 Andy: thank you very much for listening to this episode of page 94. 857 00:37:40,878 --> 00:37:42,528 We'll be back in a couple of weeks with another one. 858 00:37:42,828 --> 00:37:46,548 Until then, why not ascertain the truth for this week? 859 00:37:47,388 --> 00:37:47,508 Adam: Good. 860 00:37:47,718 --> 00:37:51,438 Andy: Yeah, the Truth in Private Eye, go to your local news 10 or go to private 861 00:37:51,438 --> 00:37:53,778 hyphen i.co uk and get a subscription. 862 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:55,970 from all of us, professor Macqueen. 863 00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:57,810 Helen: Thank you, 864 00:37:57,930 --> 00:37:58,710 Andy: professor Lewis. 865 00:37:58,810 --> 00:37:59,800 VI count, Muir 866 00:38:00,730 --> 00:38:01,360 Helen: Commodore, 867 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:07,930 Andy: vice Admiral Hislop, and, of course Earl, hill 868 00:38:07,930 --> 00:38:09,430 Adam: Supreme, ruler of the universe. 869 00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:10,685 Matt Hill, every 870 00:38:12,123 --> 00:38:13,945 Andy: Matt Hill, senior producer. 871 00:38:15,231 --> 00:38:16,713 Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. 872 00:38:16,713 --> 00:38:17,198 Bye for now.