Ian: Watch out, everybody. This is episode 31 of the Alcohol Uncensored podcast. Hope you're all keeping okay, and thank you for tuning in. You're not tuning in, are you? That's a… that's a really… that's a darn thing to say, isn't it?

Alcohol Uncensored: jointly.

Ian: Yeah, I am sure. You're not tuning in at all, but you're coming to join us on this podcast. Thank you very much for doing that. Hope you're enjoying it. You're definitely going to enjoy tonight, because we have got…

Ian: AF legend with us today, and she's smiling away. She's not gone red, so she must know she's an AF legend, so yeah. And we'll come to that in a second, but before we do that, I want to go to my co-host, Kelly, and ask her how she's getting on. Good evening, Kelly.

Alcohol Uncensored: Good evening. Yeah, I'm good, Ian. I'm good, no complaints. Feeling really good in my sobriety. I think. I say this every week, because I'm coming close to the year now, so I am 329 days sober.

Alcohol Uncensored: So, yeah. And, you know, I had a discussion with someone, and they were like, oh, you must be really buzzing to get to a year, but I think I'll be more buzzing to get to year two, because I've been to year one before.

Alcohol Uncensored: And I know that sounds a bit strange, but I think I want to get past the year and get to two-year and beat my 16 months that I got before, so… but I'm feeling really good in my sobriety, and much stronger than I ever have, so… so yeah, I'm… I'm doing well.

Ian: I'm sure our guests won't mind just hanging on while we just talk about this for a second, if that's all right, because, I know we'll keep a big drumroll and all the rest of it for the final sort of year, but…

Ian: Just tell us a bit, for the listeners who are listening to this, what's different this time, Kelly? Because I know what's different in terms of, you know, what you've been doing, but what's different?

Alcohol Uncensored: So, for me, the difference this time is I'm treating my illness of alcoholism, so I was…

Alcohol Uncensored: I work the 12-step programme through Alcoholics Anonymous, which is…

Alcohol Uncensored: it's the kind of tools for living for me. So, I was 16 months alcohol-free, and life was great. I was running marathons, and I was, like, meeting loads of friends, and going places, and having such a great time. And then life happened, and when life happened, I didn't have the tools, and…

Alcohol Uncensored: basically the tools to deal with life. I didn't know how to deal with my emotions, and my reaction was to end up drinking alcohol. So now I think I've got the 12-step program, I've got my AA meetings, I've got this community, but I've also accepted that I can never drink again.

Alcohol Uncensored: I've accepted that I'm powerless over alcohol, and that I need to, as long as I stay away from the first drink.

Alcohol Uncensored: then I need to never get drunk again. And I just think I've got that faith, and I've got that hope this time, so… so yeah. Oh, that wasn't a bit too deep, but here you go.

Ian: I'm getting a bit sort of emotional just thinking about it, because it's… it's… we don't want to temptate or get ahead of ourselves, but it's kind of, you know, it's there, isn't it, touching it? I'm really looking forward to…

Ian: With the help of everybody within Alcohol Uncensored, helping you celebrate that first year. And I know you'll bat it off, because that's what you'll do, but it's… it's been… it'll be well deserved that… that year, because you've worked hard, haven't you? And this year has been massive, hasn't it? In terms of including setting up Alcohol Uncensored. It's been massive for you, hasn't it?

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, it has. There's a lot happened in a year, I just don't… I don't know how it's happened, or… well, I do know how it's happened, it's because I've stayed sober, and I've got all you alcohol-free legends in… helping me, so… so yeah. But anyway, enough about me, you're making me.

Ian: Right, let's leave it there. Let's go to our guest and welcome her, because today we have got none other than… she's up there with some of the other top guests we've had on tactics. She might actually be number one, but just don't tell Millie and Porter. We have got Millie Gooch with us today. Good evening, Millie. How are you getting on?

Millie Gooch: Hi! Oh, thanks guys, what an intro. I would also like to say I do go red, but I'm wearing quite a lot of makeup, so you're.

Alcohol Uncensored: So yeah.

Ian: Looking well.

Millie Gooch: Thanks, guys.

Ian: Yeah, how are ya?

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I'm good, I'm good, although I'm sitting on the floor at the moment because it is the only direction that I can get the fan. I'm absolutely melting at the moment. I'm just… I'm not made for this heat, so… No. That's why I'm literally sitting on the.

Alcohol Uncensored: You should move to Scotland, we don't have any heat here, that's why I've got a jacket on.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, honestly, if it gets any hotter over the next few years, I actually think I might have to…

Ian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Millie, we'll sort of introduce you in a second, in terms of letting you sort of tell everybody a bit about your backstory, and kind of what you've been doing in the last few years in the alcohol-free space, but…

Ian: I've been reading your latest book, which is coming out soon, Called anxiety, and…

Ian: I'm loving it. I've confessed, I'm only halfway through it. I tried to blame Kelly and say… say, excuse me.

Ian: She only gave it to me a couple of days ago, she didn't. I've had it for a few weeks, but I've just got a chance to get reading on it, and I'm loving it, and I'm looking forward to finishing it about halfway through, but we've got plenty of questions, and I really want to talk about it, because…

Ian: anxiety is something that, you know, it's a fairly modern term, isn't it? But it covers so much stuff that, kind of, I certainly struggled with for a long time, so I'm really looking forward to getting into the meat of that, if you like. But before we do that, can we just

Ian: please, for everyone's benefit, just tell people a bit about you, Millie, kind of what got you to where you are now in terms of being the AF legend that you are, and kind of what you've been doing in the last few years?

Millie Gooch: Yeah, of course! So, I got sober in 2018, so over 8 years ago now. I was 26 at the time, and I was really struggling with my relationship with alcohol, which was that very stereotypical party girl, blackout binge drinking. You know, like, on the main online, when they show pictures of people in Newcastle on New Year's Eve, and they're just, like, sprawled out on

Millie Gooch: on the floor with their, you know, heels off and a kebab in their hand. That was me. That, so… but it kind of went like that for years, and then it…

Millie Gooch: it kind of got to a point where it was a bit more regular. I was drinking a lot in the week, and weeknights, because I was doing a lot of, like, socializing with work.

Millie Gooch: But my mental health at the time was just on the floor. I constantly struggled throughout my, like, kind of really late teens, early 20s with depression and anxiety, and I really turned to alcohol during those times. And I always say for me, like, when I was drinking and blacking out, it's because it was the first time that my brain was, like, quiet, and I just…

Millie Gooch: I always drunk, like, drank to get drunk. I never just drank because I wanted a couple of drinks. I wanted to be absolutely shit-faced.

Millie Gooch: And then I would wake up next day and be like, oh my god, what should I do, what should I say? Sometimes I would wake up and not be where I lived, and friends were getting annoyed with me, family were getting annoyed with me. It was… it was destroying every part of my life, really, and like a…

Millie Gooch: finances, yeah, relationships, like, mental health, physical health, all of them, but because I wasn't your, like, waking up in the morning and drinking drinker, or, like, an every-single-day drinker, everyone said, oh, you're fine, you're just young, you're just a party girl.

Millie Gooch: And then, yeah, got to 26, went on a night out with my friends, don't remember a thing about it, except I woke up next day and everyone was pissed off with me, and I had to make my usual apologies, and I'd, like, lost a debit card again, and all the usual things, and I just said, I can't keep doing this, I don't want to live like this anymore, and I think, like, it is at a point where it's quite serious, and if I carry on, it's gonna be even more serious.

Millie Gooch: So I just decided that I was gonna stop drinking, which sounds like one day I just decided I was gonna stop, and then I did. Throughout that period, I had… I gave up alcohol for Lent once for, like, 40 days, and then got back on it at 6am in the morning, because all my friends thought that would be a fun way to celebrate. Like, I'd done the odd… well, it used to be called Dryathlon before it was Dry January, so I did one of those. Me and my dad did it together, because we both needed a break.

Millie Gooch: And then, yeah, I… I stopped drinking. From that day, then, yeah, it's been eight and a half years, about…

Ian: Brilliant.

Millie Gooch: Thank you. About 7 months in, I decided… well, basically, I didn't know a single sober person, and I wanted to meet other like-minded people, and at the same time, I was working as a journalist, and I was writing about Spidey, and I didn't really want to put all that on my Instagram, so I decided the best thing to do was start a brand new Instagram page.

Millie Gooch: maybe I'd make a few friends, I could post my writing about sobriety, and then it became a full-time job. And that's where we are today.

Alcohol Uncensored: Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Ian: Oh, goodness.

Ian: Excellent. And what… sorry if I'm sounding ignorant here, but do you work as well as doing this? Because you… you obviously are quite prolific now in terms of, sort of, the alcohol-free space. Is it… is it something that…

Ian: did you supplement with other work, or is it… is this… is this you? What do you do in your… in your… what do you do in your day… average day, really?

Millie Gooch: Yes.

Ian: to get up.

Millie Gooch: so I do this full-time now. I have probably done it full-time for about, mmm, maybe four and a half years? So I do a whole mix of things, really. So, I obviously do, like, Instagram, social media stuff, so I work with, like, a lot of non-alcoholic brands, or, like, health, lifestyle brands.

Millie Gooch: And then I have Sober Girls IT, so we run a lot of events and meetups. I also do a lot of, like, talks, so I go into workplaces and talk to them about, you know, how to have a more sober-inclusive drinking culture. I go and do talks at, like, universities. I do some consultancy for, like, non-alcoholic drinks brands.

Millie Gooch: I write books, I do podcasts like this, it's like, yeah, every day is so different, honestly. Like, when… my worst thing is when I'm at a party and someone says, what's your job? And I have to…

Alcohol Uncensored: that kind.

Millie Gooch: I can't even explain it, because, like, one week I'll be at, like, an alcohol-free drinks judging competition, and then the next week I'll be giving a talk in a prison. Like, I'm like, it's just so varied. But I usually just say, anything non-alcoholic sobriety, I'm your girl, like, tag me in.

Alcohol Uncensored: Inspiring and educating, that's what I would say.

Millie Gooch: No, thank you.

Ian: You paid for it as well, that's the best bit. Yeah, absolutely fantastic.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, it's amazing. It really is. The Sober Girls Society, so I do get the emails, which are fantastic, and I do see all the kind of events you do and everything as well. You do some great work there. But your… your book… you've wrote a couple of books now, haven't you?

Millie Gooch: This is the second official one. There was a one in between, which is a guided journal, so it's… it's not really a full book, because it's, like, 5,000 words as opposed to 70,000 words, but they'd still count it as a book, so technically this is book 3.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, amazing. Amazing. I haven't read the others, I must admit, but Hangzari was… your new book was… it's just… we'll talk about that in a minute, but when you go, you know.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: Yeah, I'm just smiling away, thinking how cool it must be to be Millie to sort of, like, to sort of do what you've just described there, in terms of what your daily week, or what your week looks like in terms of

Ian: and something that you're so clearly passionate about, and sort of just comes naturally to you. I'm sure it's not always as great as that, Millie, but, you know, we all have ups and downs, but it sounds… sounds cool. Sorry for the dad crack, if you know what I mean.

Millie Gooch: No, 100%.

Ian: I was like, sounds brilliant.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, like, some days at any job, it's just me sitting at a laptop at home, like, it's not all, like.

Millie Gooch: you know, fun and exciting things, but then some days it is really fun and exciting things, and going to do really cool things, and speaking to cool people. I think, like, podcast… doing podcasts are, like, one of my favorite things, because I just love chatting to people, and, like… Oh, I say that, podcasts with people who, like, get it, who are sober, are, like, really lovely to do. I've done a few podcasts with people who aren't sober, who are trying to deliberately trip you up, and those are always quite

Millie Gooch: interesting experience.

Ian: Right.

Alcohol Uncensored: I can imagine you hold them well.

Millie Gooch: I try to. I think I've got used to it now, because I know… I know the questions that are coming, it's like, oh, do you miss it, and do you really think you'll never drink again, and like, oh, what do you do for fun? It's always the same.

Alcohol Uncensored: No.

Alcohol Uncensored: What about the Sober Girls Society? Is there a kind of age range within that? Because obviously you're… you're… I love that you've…

Alcohol Uncensored: gave up alcohol from such a young age, it's absolutely amazing. If I could get

Alcohol Uncensored: many people to do that at that age, it would be fantastic, but what's the Sober Girl Society like in terms of age range? Is it a variety of ages?

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, we say we're inclusive to all ages, and I'm, like, quite big on intergenerational friendships. I think people can learn lots either way, but I think because I am sort of the face of it, it does tend to be, like, the majority of our meetups, I would say, from, like.

Millie Gooch: 23 to 38? I mean, I'm actually gonna be 35 this month, so I'm, like, at the top end of that, and it's funny, because when I first started running them, everyone was, like, my age, like, 26, 27, and now sometimes we get girls that are, like, 18, I'm 35, and I'm starting to feel like they're, like, protective mothers, so I've taken on, like, a slightly different role as time has gone on.

Alcohol Uncensored: How amazing is that, though, to get 18-year-old girls turning up at an Alcohol event? Like, there was nothing like that when I was younger. I mean, that's just… that's just wonderful.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I love it when I see them, and then, like, when they say how young they are, I'm like, oh my god, and I'm so excited for people that do it young, because, like, even though I gave up so young, I'm still like, I wish I'd done it sooner.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yes.

Ian: Yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yep.

Ian: I was looking on Spotify last night, and your feed starts coming up with similar things to what you listen to, and obviously listening to Alcohol Uncensored and another podcast, it brings up lots of other sort of potential alcohol-free podcasts, and there are so many these days, aren't they? And it's great, isn't it? Because there's almost one for every

Ian: every pigeonhole, if you know what I mean. If you're a certain person, there's one for you. Well, there's very… lots of different types, and that is a lot different to when you first stopped, Millie in 2018, and when I first stopped in 2020. It was a different world then, wasn't it? It has changed massively.

Millie Gooch: 100%. I don't think there were really any sobriety podcasts back then. I think there was one that I used to listen to that was American, and then that was it. There wasn't really, like, anything in the UK, or anything that I found that relatable at the time, and then, yeah, now, like you say, there's sort of, like, something for everyone, which is…

Millie Gooch: incredible, and interestingly, actually, so a couple of years ago, I went back to union, and I did my master's degree in addiction and mental health, and for my dissertation, I wanted to look at sober podcasts, because I just think they've been such a, like, fantastic thing in this space, and, like.

Millie Gooch: the feedback that I got from the people I interviewed that listen to these podcasts, it was just like, God, this is such an incredible and value resource for, like, so many people that

Millie Gooch: either, like, don't want to take that initial step of, like, walking into a meeting or going to an alcohol service. It's literally, like, help and support on demand, which, again, has never been, like, a thing. Like, you can literally be on your way to a night out with your friends, worrying about, oh, am I going to drink? And you can put your headphones in and listen to a podcast. Like, I just think they're incredible. I think it's so great that that's now a thing.

Ian: Yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: I think as well, because there is such a good variety, because I know for me, obviously I've accepted now that I… and I love Alcoholics Anonymous, and I love my meetings, and I love my group, but back in 2021, when I started trying to stop drinking, it was… it sounded like hell and earth to me, and I found Over the Influence, which was such a positive, upbeat.

Alcohol Uncensored: podcast about Alcohol-free life, and that's when I truly found the joy of sobriety. Like, I absolutely loved it, it was just I didn't have those coping mechanisms, but I think there is such a variety out there in terms of

Alcohol Uncensored: Learning and educating around addiction, et cetera, but also that kind of fun and upbeat element to it as well.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, 100%, and I think that's what I've always tried to, like, subscribe to as well, because I think, for me, like, getting sober, I thought it was going to be horrific, and actually, it's been quite lovely, and I would like other people to know that it's not as terrifying as sometimes it is made out to be.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah.

Ian: did you ever, sort of, you said you were in journalism when you, sort of, when you were a bit younger, that's when you kind of… maybe your work was going in that direction. Do you ever… did you ever see yourself going in this direction, or was it just totally that you got into, sort of, alcohol-free life and thought.

Ian: You know, did it really put a rocket under you, and sort of really get you sort of enthused and…

Ian: Did you ever see yourself going in this direction, is what I'm trying to get at.

Millie Gooch: Not really. I'd always wanted to write a book, so I studied English at uni, and I went on to journalism. Like, writing has always been the thing that I have been, like, incredibly passionate about, but I've never really had a topic that I was passionate enough

Millie Gooch: about to write, and I was writing… like, when I say journalism, I don't mean hard-hitting war journalism. I was, like, working for, like, Women's Lifestyle magazines, so I was very much writing about, like.

Millie Gooch: the latest trends, and as much as I loved that, I was never like, oh my god, this is the thing I want to do for the rest of my life. So then I… when I found this subject, and I also really found, like, in the way that maybe you find this with, like, talking about it on a podcast, I found writing about my experience so helpful and cathartic, and allowed me to, like, process my own, like, thoughts around it. So I just… I just started writing, and I…

Millie Gooch: worked in, like, a building with loads of different magazines, and I was just begging the different magazines to be like, can I just write you a piece on sobriety? Because, like, I keep looking around, and I'm trying to find stuff as, like, a 26-year-old girl about people stopping drinking, and I can't find anything. So, I guess yes and no, because I always wanted to write and be a writer and write a book, but I never… I never in a million years, if you'd have said this to me 10 years ago, this is what you'll write about, I would have been like.

Millie Gooch: As it, no way.

Ian: you're right so well, I mean, sort of having… I feel like I've kind of met you before I met you, if you know what I mean? You are exactly how I sort of anticipated you would be, which is a massive compliment, by the way.

Millie Gooch: Good, thank you.

Ian: you do, you do write very, very well. You write in such a nice, sort of, easy way to sort of take information in. It's also… but you also get a lot of information in there as well at the same time, so it's clearly something you do very well, yeah.

Millie Gooch: Oh, thanks. Now I will go red.

Ian: Yeah, that's our challenge, is to make Millie go red, Kelly, see what we're doing.

Alcohol Uncensored: The book… for me, the book was just… it was excellent, because it was, like, it was a no-bullshit approach of just honest, honest stuff that you were saying. Like, the stuff that we all talk about in this community about the harms of alcohol, and, like, the true, kind of.

Alcohol Uncensored: the truth about the harms of alcohol, and what it does to us, and the anxiety, and the depression, and all those things that we don't link to it, I just thought it was a… it was… I was, like, nodding the whole time when I was reading it. I was like, yes, yes. And it was such an easy, like what Ian said. It did sound like we were getting to know you in the book as well, which was really good.

Millie Gooch: Oh, good, thank you.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: Can we just go ahead and sort of get into the book, if you know what I mean? And what motivated you to specifically write a book on anxiety and almost on the brain side of things, if you know what I mean, rather than your own personal experiences of it?

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think there are some incredible, like, sorry, books out there already that cover so many different topics, but I personally felt like there wasn't one that really tackled mental health. Like, there's so many books about how to get sober, and what to do when you are sober, and, you know, the things leading up to that, but I didn't… and there's… then there's, like, a few science-y books, like you mentioned, like William Porter, like Alcohol Explained.

Millie Gooch: and things like that, which, you know, cover everything, but I didn't think there was anything that was, like, solely mental health focused, and the reason that I gave up drinking was because of the effect it was having on my mental health, and so to not necessarily see that story reflected in anything, I was like, okay, I think I need to be the one to write about it. And I think also there is an element that people don't necessarily take

Millie Gooch: like, the mental health struggles with alcohol seriously, in terms of… for some people, it's, like, not a good enough reason to quit. It's like, oh, well, you know, you're… like, the thing I would get told is, you're not a true alcoholic, or all those things, and… and I think those kind of stories prevent so many people from…

Millie Gooch: looking at their relationship with alcohol before it gets significantly worse, and I think it's such a valid reason for someone to stop drinking that it just doesn't agree with their brain. But yeah, I think sometimes it's seen as a bit of a, like, a lesser reason for giving up drinking, so I really wanted to untangle.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, and also, as well, I know for me, it was like, I'm drinking more because my mental health's so bad, so the reason, because I've got poor mental health, so I'm having to drink to cope. There was no point in time did anyone say, well, actually, like, there was never a conversation to say, actually.

Alcohol Uncensored: the alcohol's making your mental health worse. There was just no conversation around that, and that's what I absolutely love about it as well.

Millie Gooch: Oh, thank you so much. And I think, like you say, you… if you're drinking because of your mental health, like, I think so often people try and tackle the drinking part without actually going, okay, yeah, but why are they drinking so much? Like, what is the reason behind that? And maybe we should look at that, because I always say, like, I have professional support, but it wasn't necessarily for drinking. I have professional support for my mental health, and that really helped

Millie Gooch: me not go back to drinking, like, because tackling that was the key. So, I think that's, like, also where I wanted to, like, come from with it, is that I don't always believe that it's, like, alcohol is the main problem, it's what you're using it for.

Alcohol Uncensored: Can I ask you a question on that, actually? You'd said that one of the reasons, or the main reason you wanted to stop drinking was because you knew it was affecting your mental health. Was that an actual, like, kind of conscious thought, that this is…

Alcohol Uncensored: like, affecting my mental health, because there's so many people out there that just don't tie them together, so for you to… to kind of realize that and have that awareness is… is excellent, so I'm just wondering, kind of, where you… where that came from.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think I just knew I was miserable, like, I don't know if I thought, like, oh, this is… specifically, every time I drink this, it's correlating to me feeling like… I just felt like my life was just, like, in the gutter, and I just knew that, like, alcohol and the anxiety wasn't making any of that better, and, like, I think I also scared myself slightly, because when I was hungover, and when I had

Millie Gooch: that, like, really extreme anxiety of, like, feeling worthless and feeling shame. It took me to really, really scary places that I otherwise didn't necessarily go to. Like, I would be low and I would have bouts of depression, but it would never take me to that, like, place where I would actually be like, oh god, I actually don't know if I want to be here anymore. And when I drank, it did. So I think that's what I was able to see, is, like, God, I actually

Millie Gooch: don't necessarily trust myself at a hangover to not do something quite life-altering. So, yeah, I think that was, like, the awareness that I had around it, but not necessarily ever thinking that maybe on a day-to-day basis, and the periods in between the kind of, like, binge sessions, I never really thought it was affecting those bits in between. I just thought it was, like, the morning after.

Ian: Yeah. So we've already separated, anxiety from a hangover. Can we just dig a bit more into, kind of, what's going on in terms of the brain when…

Ian: when you're suffering from anxiety, it was always for me, it was always the day after, the day after, when it kicked in for me, but I won't go into too much about my story, but can you just talk a bit more about what's going on in the brain, Millie, in terms of

Ian: Why we're getting this, this anxiety.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, of course, I mean, if yours was, like, maybe 2 days later, that probably shows how much maybe you were drinking, because

Millie Gooch: essentially, the bottom line of anxiety as the biggest driver, is what we call, like, the neural rebound. So, when you're drinking, like, alcohol basically stimulates GABA signaling. So, GABA in your brain is like an inhibitory chemical. It makes you feel relaxed, it makes you feel chilled, and you know, you're not overthinking. The more you drink, the more it, like, stimulates GABA signaling, so that's why you might have

Millie Gooch: Slurred speech, or you shouldn't get behind a wheel, because essentially everything is being sort of, like, depressed.

Millie Gooch: And at the same time, it suppresses glutamate signaling, so glutamate is your, like, go-go-go neurotransmitter. It keeps you, like, alert and focused. So again, it makes you, like, doubly chilled. And then the simplest explanation is when alcohol starts leaving your body, your brain loves balance.

Millie Gooch: And as it starts to leave your body, your brain is like, something is not right here. We need to… we need to course correct. So all of a sudden, it suppresses scabb, because it's like, you've had way too much of this, and it gives you a spike of glutamate, which is going to give you, like, that kind of, like, spike of anxiety, because that has been suppressed.

Millie Gooch: So, what it giveth it, take it away, almost. Like, it will make you feel chilled, and it will make you feel relaxed, and all of those things, but the next day, it's like, we need to rebalance this, so we're gonna go the other way, and we're gonna give you anxiety, and that… that is…

Millie Gooch: I'm massively reducing it, but that is kind of, like, the simplest explanation behind it, is this neural rebound. So, it's all about when alcohol starts leaving your body. So, if you got it the day after, the day after, that's probably when the alcohol, like, finally started leaving your body. So, that's one of the main drivers of it. And then we have how alcohol affects sleep. So, you know, we have this myth that alcohol helps you sleep, and there's kind of, like, a half-truth to it, because

Millie Gooch: it will help you fall asleep. It is kind of akin to a sedative, so it will… it will, again, because of the, like, GABA signaling, it will make you feel chilled and relaxed, and you're likely to… to fall asleep. But it actually disrupts your sleep architecture, so the quality of your sleep. So even if you got, like, 8 hours sleep, and you think, oh, I was fully passed out, and you still wake up feeling completely, like, wired.

Millie Gooch: That's because it, like, interacts with, kind of, like, yeah, your sleep architecture.

Millie Gooch: So, if you don't get enough good quality sleep, you can be more emotionally reactive, you can, you know, be on more high alert, you might snap at people you love more than when you don't intend to. So you've got that side, you've got the sleep side, kind of a similar story with your stress and your stress systems, and then you've also got the, like, blackout side. So for me, this was, like, a big driver of anxiety, of literally not remembering what I did the next

Millie Gooch: morning, so I would go out, like, black out. I'm quite sure I'd drink really quickly, because I'd be like, I can drink as much as everyone else. And the next day, I wouldn't remember a thing. And this is… when I first, like, learned about alcohol, I found this

Millie Gooch: Concepts are absolutely fascinating, which is the fact that

Millie Gooch: when you drink, if you drink enough, it can suppress, like I said, glutamate, which is really needed for

Millie Gooch: basically the process that moves things from your short-term memory to your long-term memory. So, when you're out and you're really drunk, you're making short-term memories, but it's interrupted the process that would actually save them into your kind of, like, save bank. So the example I always give is if you had a phone, and you were, like, recording everyone, but you hadn't actually pressed the record button, so it would never logged into your memory. So try as you might the next day, you may not be able to get those memories back, and I

Millie Gooch: used to spend endless amounts of time on a hangover just being like, right, just sit there, try and remember what happened, think about this, you were in a conversation with so-and-so, what happened next? And I would spend, like, hours of my life trying to get those memories back, and I didn't realize that, for a lot of them, they are never ever coming back. So that was a big part of anxiety as well. So they are, like, your big drivers, essentially, of anxiety.

Alcohol Uncensored: It is bonkers that we actually do this to her. I mean, I used to do this to myself every single weekend, and I… sometimes I wouldn't even leave the house, and the next day I would go up and I would be riddled with anxiety and fear and thinking.

Alcohol Uncensored: oh god, what have I done? And my partner at the time used to say, we've not left the house, like, he would just be lying, hungover, just eating it out, and sleeping it out, and I would be like, oh, I would have the fear, it was just absolutely… and I used to do it every weekend, every single weekend, over and over again.

Alcohol Uncensored: Oh, it's that I think…

Millie Gooch: I just don't know what you've done. I saw a film the other week, and she did a TikTok, and she'd got an Uber, she was so drunk, she was at her house, she'd got an Uber from her house back to her house.

Millie Gooch: Like, she was so drunk, she'd just done something completely ridiculous, and then, like, I would spiral that I'd, like, done something like that. Like, I would think, no, I probably did leave the house, and I went on a rager and spoke to so-and-so, and, like, you said, the reality is you might not, but because I literally couldn't remember, my brain would, like, leap into these crazy scenarios of things that might have happened.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah.

Ian: A lot of my drinking in my 30s and 40s, Millie was sort of networking. It was work-related, so I was out with clients and people I know from, you know, my profession. And, you know, typically I was always, like you, I was always the guy who would sort of…

Ian: You know, be… be… sort of try and be the life and soul of the party, and sort of be the funny one, and be the one who was there at the start, and there at the end, and… and trying to make everybody laugh, and everybody sort of, you know… because it was kind of all part of the job, in a way, to… to be liked, because that way, somehow, people would then give you work, and it was really crazy, but…

Ian: But for probably 10 to 20 years, you know, a lot of my drinking was work-related.

Millie Gooch: Mmm.

Ian: And then I would wake up the next morning, or like I say, maybe if it was everyone, the day after, because the day after a big event would just be recovering from the feelings of a hangover, so the headache, the nausea, the tiredness, the liturgy, the…

Ian: I didn't have the time or the capacity to deal with all the paranoia, if you know what I mean. It was then maybe the day after, and I was just so…

Ian: riddled with anxiety about what I'd said to potentially important people in my career.

Ian: I had no recollection of what I might have said or done. All I remember is these big blanks, like you've described, where… big gaps where I just couldn't remember being…

Ian: I couldn't remember being there. I knew I was there, because I kind of then… things would then come back anyway. I remember being in a taxi coming home, so I must have been there, and then, and no recollection whatsoever. And the anxiety that created for me in my head of, what have I said? You know, what have I done?

Ian: have I really offended somebody? And I'm a people pleaser, I've self-contest people-pleaser. It just played havoc with me for years, and just listening, just having this conversation now, thinking, I put myself through absolute torture. Yeah. And it was just such a shame.

Millie Gooch: We don't, like… we don't know those things. Like, no one tells you this is how alcohol is gonna affect you. So you just start thinking that you're, like, a freak, or, like, you just start thinking, oh my god, it's just me that feels like this, because no one tells you that this is how alcohol is going to affect you. So, like, how are you supposed to know that those things are going to happen?

Alcohol Uncensored: I have really honest conversations with my 17-year-old, so I've got an older boy at 27 and 25, and they've… they have a drink. My older boy, 27, definitely has got no off switch when he does do it, but doesn't do it very often.

Alcohol Uncensored: But I've been able to use examples with Jack about me, and about his brothers, because he knows that his older brother, if he goes out and drinks too much, he ends up spewing, and I'll talk to him about why he's spewing, and talk to him about the anxiety and all the mistakes that he could make. So, so far, it was at a gig on Saturday night.

Alcohol Uncensored: up his mate's shoulders and all the rest of it, didn't have a drink, all his friends were drinking, so I'm hoping, and I think that's what it's about, I think what you're doing, and I think hopefully what we're doing as well, is having those honest conversations and trying to get people to then kind of relate that through the generations as well, so that they do know, because like you say, no one… no one told us, no one kind of told us what…

Alcohol Uncensored: Why we were feeling like that, or what to look out for.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, and I think that's all you can do, like, you can't… you can't stop people drinking, and sometimes the more you try and get them not to, they… they will want to do it more, but all…

Millie Gooch: All you can do is, you know, educate people and hope that they make good choices.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, absolutely.

Ian: Why do you think, Millie, that we're still normalizing heavy drinking after all these years?

Ian: when it's still quite clear that, you know, what it can do to your mental health. It still seems to be going on, doesn't it? There's still… I mean, I've got kids who are 22 and 19, and yeah, they're…

Ian: you know, they do drink, and sometimes they might drink a little bit too much, particularly my son. Hope he's not listening to this, but, you know, why is it that we're still doing all this when it's now so clear, there's so much evidence, isn't there? Why are we still stuck in this loop, do you think?

Millie Gooch: I think so much of the evidence actually gets buried and twisted and changed. Like, I think, say, with smoking, I think they've done such a good public health job of, like, I think every single person knows that smoking can give you cancer now.

Millie Gooch: with alcohol, which equally can give you cancer, people were like, oh, no, I didn't know that alcohol could give you cancer, and I didn't know what cancers it was related to. Like, it's related to, like, 7 different cancers. A lot of people don't know that. I think

Millie Gooch: a lot of the information has been buried, and there's so much misinformation, like, you'll see articles all the time about red wine is good for you, or, you know, tequila will add 5 years to your life, and the stuff that people talk about with, like, Mediterranean diet, and Blue Zones, and all those things, I think there's so much

Millie Gooch: conflicting misinformation, and I also just think it's so culturally embedded, it's like…

Millie Gooch: I don't know, trying to pull out football from, like, the UK, like, it is just… it's in everything we do, it's in commiserating, it's in celebrating, it's… there's an industry behind it who are just constantly peddling and peddling and peddling.

Millie Gooch: And I think… I think it would take too much for a lot of people to really, really look at it. I think so many people are just like, no, don't wanna know, I'm just gonna keep… keep drinking it. It's so easy, it's like a… a really accessible form of relief for so many people. I just think it's…

Millie Gooch: So hard to untangle for so many reasons.

Ian: Yes.

Ian: But it's like what Kelly said earlier, but it is… you're right, it's an accessible form of relief.

Ian: is also, like, kind of… it's like going to the doctors and getting totally the wrong prescription, isn't it? Because it really… it just comes and bites you on the backside, and that's kind of… that's the… that's the…

Ian: gap that we're trying to sort of explain, isn't it? And that's what your book does so well, is kind of… this is just the wrong… the wrong drug, if you like, if this is what you're trying to do. For all these reasons, it's making it 10 times worse.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, because, I mean, they're pretty much conclusion of anxiety, I talk about the fact that, like, there's a good quote from Aldous Huxley, where he basically says that alcohol is a really inefficient drug, which is, like, at the crux of it, what it is, because all the things that you are using for, the science will tell you that it will make them slightly too significantly worse. So, like, if you're drinking for anxiety, over time it will slowly make you more anxious if you're drinking

Millie Gooch: stress, over time it will make you slightly more stressed. If you're drinking to brighten a low mood, over time it will slightly make your mood worse. So it's like, all the things that you are using it for in the long term, it is not going to help with any of those things. So it's just… it's just quite inefficient. It's just quite a shit drug. It's, like, the bottom line, but we've glamorized and romanticized it, and it's so quick and effective.

Millie Gooch: In the moment, like, because that's the thing, I don't… you can't deny that alcohol doesn't work at all, because otherwise you're just ignoring why so many people drink, so it does… it works instantly, very quickly, for what most people are using it for, but it's just a short-term solution, and over time it is not going to help with the problem that you're using it for.

Alcohol Uncensored: And that is it, isn't it? It's that quick fix, and people just love a quick fix. It's been a long day, quick fix. It's been a stressful day, quick fix. I'm social… I'm anxious, and I've got to socialise, this'll make me feel better. It's like, it's just… it's there, that's the kind of… the mindset of so many people, and it was for me as well.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, and these days it's quicker than ever, because you can get it on a delivery app, it's, like, so…

Alcohol Uncensored: Oh, don't get me started on that, don't get me started on that.

Millie Gooch: Oh, yeah, that all comes.

Ian: I think that's something we want to talk about more, isn't it, Kelly? And I think we're going to, you know, probably shine a light on that, if you like, in future episodes, because it's… it's a big thing, isn't it? You know, it's like the sort of the…

Ian: you know, the just-eaten Delivery Deliveroos of the world, kind of, sort of, delivering… supermarkets delivering to your door. You don't need to be… you don't need to be in your dressing gown, you can go and collect whatever you've got. You don't even need to leave the house, and you can then drink unchecked, which is just… it's just a recipe for disaster, I think.

Ian: That's something that… It's a growing problem, isn't it?

Millie Gooch: Yeah.

Ian: Yeah. Would…

Ian: you've talked in the book about shame, and the shame of… people have a shame of drinking and sort of, you know, and I think it kind of then stops them from asking for help, and how important is it, and what steps can…

Ian: Not so much can you do, but what steps can we all take to sort of remove the shame from alcohol drinking and alcohol dependency?

Millie Gooch: Hmm, yeah, I think shame is…

Millie Gooch: is horrific, because I think shame breeds drinking, and drinking breeds shame, and you get caught in this horrific shame cycle, where, like.

Millie Gooch: I know that if I woke up and I'd done something horrendous, and that whole week I was just feeling awful about it, the first thing I would do was drink to forget about it, and then potentially end up doing something more shameful. So there's so many, like.

Millie Gooch: there's so many complex layers to it as well, because then you have the shame of, like, why can't I drink like a normal person? Like, why just me? Why can't, when I say I'm only gonna have two, I go over and have 22? Like, it's that kind of thing.

Millie Gooch: And so I think the first thing that we could do, like, shame thrives in isolation, is to meet other people, and talk to them, and know that you are not alone, because, like I said earlier, I think… I used to just think I was a freak of nature, because all my friends could drink normally, could wake up and be like, oh, I had a nice night, and I'd be like, oh my god, I literally, like, what the hell?

Millie Gooch: And so I think when I found people who were like me, I was like, I'm not a freak, like all these other people are like me as well. So I think that's one of the, like, the first things that we can do. But I think as a society, we need to be way more open with these conversations, not shutting them down, because

Millie Gooch: like, we think that they're preachy to have these conversations, because I think otherwise so many people struggle in silence because they don't want to look like, oh, they're preachy, or they're judgmental, or like.

Millie Gooch: we need to be able to talk about this, and also just, like, take the stigma out of, like, alcohol issues anyway. Like, I believe, like, alcohol issues are pretty much part of, like, mental health issues, but we don't necessarily, like, treat them that way. We're like, oh, it's…

Millie Gooch: that person's fault, and they're weak, and they're, like, flawed, and all those things that we have, whereas I think we need to treat them as part of mental health conditions, so that people get the support, and not to be chastised, and… and, yeah.

Millie Gooch: like, when You said about the delivery… oh, go on, sorry.

Ian: I was just gonna say, and that's where the big alcohol companies, I think, are kind of, sort of, you know, almost keeping a lid on everything, because they're very clever, aren't they, at sort of saying, this is a you problem. You know, like you say, all the positive stories of, you know, a glass of wine's good for you, tequila will keep you living longer, or whatever it might be, and just… and the positive advertising around, you must have a drink to have a good time kind of thing.

Ian: It is like… it's like the smoking of the 70s, isn't it, in terms of how it's advertised, and they are very clever at, sort of, you know, drink responsibly.

Alcohol Uncensored: Oh, God, don't get, yeah, don't get me started about that.

Ian: you know, and I think… and I think, tell me if I've got this wrong, Millie, but I think you're making some big inroads in that area, I think, aren't you, in terms of, sort of, trying to hold some of these people to task a little bit. Have I got that right?

Millie Gooch: I mean, I'm always trying. I always like to imagine that they've got, like, my face on a dartboard in their offices, but I just don't know if, like, they are trillion dollar companies. We're talking, like, bigger than, like, the fast food industry, like, they are just huge. You think about everywhere that you could possibly get alcohol, and in every country, and in every, like, these companies are…

Millie Gooch: fucking massive, so to take them on is like trying to take on, like, Apple, or Elon Musk, or one of those, like, it's… it's a hard undertaking, and they're, like, pretty much always…

Millie Gooch: A few steps ahead, but…

Millie Gooch: I think it's… I think it is changing slightly, and I think, you know, one of the things I always even say is, if you are gonna drink, I'd rather support, like, an independent brand than one of these, like, big, huge alcohol industry brands. I think that's…

Millie Gooch: that's where I would rather put my money if I was still drinking, but yeah, I don't know how much of a… of a dent I make in it, but I do… I try.

Alcohol Uncensored: I think what you said there as well, about kind of speaking to people who get it, like, that whole community and connection is so important, and I think our healthcare systems and the government should be, kind of, pushing that a lot more, because I know that there's still

Alcohol Uncensored: that whole drink responsibly, and the healthcare systems as well, where they'll try and get you to… to drink less, and drink a soft drink in between, and all these things. By the time… if someone's going and asking for help, they're past.

Alcohol Uncensored: the point where they're going to have a soft drink in between, and I think finding your tribe of people, finding community, and like that, talking to people is so important, and I think it could be the part on the scale that stops people from crossing that line into full-blown addiction. I just think it's so, so important.

Millie Gooch: 100%. I think community is, like… I mean, there is that saying, isn't there, of, like, connection is the opposite of addiction, and I truly believe, like, every successful kind of, like, model that helps people that I think works really well has community at the center of it.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yep.

Ian: Let's get on to the good news, if you don't mind, in terms of, obviously, we've talked a lot about, sort of, what happens when you are drinking, and the horrors of anxiety and all the rest of it. Let's get on to the, sort of, more about the recovery and the change, when you actually decide, you know what, I've had enough of this shit, I'm gonna start, sort of, changing things. What happens in the brain when you actually start to either reduce or ideally stop drinking?

Millie Gooch: Yeah, the brain starts to sort of, like, recalibrate, so your baseline, like, baseline anxiety can, like, return to what it was before, essentially, and you might even be even calmer, your kind of stress systems can calm down, you… your sleep can become better as well, because you might have had periods of real, like, interrupted sleep. So all of that can gradually get back on track

Millie Gooch: With the caveat that when you first stop drinking, it might be worse than ever, because your brain is in this state of

Millie Gooch: constantly, like, being used to having alcohol, even if that is, like, once a week, even if you're not, like, a daily drinker, any kind of, like, routine or pattern that your brain becomes accustomed to, it is used to that. So, you, you know, a lot of people are like, oh god, I feel like I was lied to, because I…

Millie Gooch: I stopped drinking, and now I've had the worst sleep of my life, and my anxiety is…

Millie Gooch: out, like, through the roof. So, like, a lot of that, that recalibration period at the beginning is really hard, because you almost have to just push through, but that is the point when a lot of people go, oh, no, thank you, I'm gonna go back to drinking. So, like, gradually, all of those things can get better, and even, like, if you're a really heavy drinker, like, your brain can sort of, like, actually, like, atrophy, like, shrink.

Millie Gooch: And so, when you get sober, the brain can luckily, like, recover with that as well, so you can have, like, kind of the reverse of that. And yeah, whatever way your brain has learned in one direction, it can learn in, like, a new opposite direction, so…

Millie Gooch: You can learn to do all those things again without alcohol, but it just… it just takes time.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: I'm logging away, because I'm just… I remember when I did first stop drinking, and my anxiety, almost… my anxiety was terrible before I stopped drinking. And then when I stopped drinking, it seemed to get worse.

Millie Gooch: Hmm.

Ian: I think it was because suddenly all these, like, new… I'm not good on the science, but all these things… neurons were flying around my head, bouncing around, didn't know what to do with themselves. And I was just asking myself all these questions. Who am I? What are people going to think if I don't drink anymore? You know, they're going to think… are they going to think I had a drink problem? Do they not want to know me anymore?

Ian: you know, sort of, who am I now? I don't drink, and…

Ian: Oh, just everything, and it was… and… but all that was… was the… what you're saying, it's the science, if you like, it's kind of… it's inevitable.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I'd say… I'd say it's a mix, to be honest, like, it is the science, because it's almost like one big anxiety, because you're finally, like, stopping drinking, removing alcohol, and everything's resetting. But then, yeah, at the same time, like, it is a big identity shift for a lot of people, especially if, like, it sounds like you were, and like I was, like, being the party one is quite a big part of your identity and who you are. When you stop drinking, you're like, oh my god, like.

Millie Gooch: what are all these, like, what am I gonna do with my life now? And I think also, just learning to deal with your own emotions. Every kind of, like, uncomfortable emotion, I'd always turn to alcohol for. Like, stress, heartbreak, being upset, being insecure, not feeling confident, I'd turn to alcohol. So, when I stopped drinking, I didn't know how to deal with any of those things. I had no coping tools.

Millie Gooch: Whatsoever. So, yeah, I think it's a mixture of both things, to be honest.

Ian: Yeah, yeah. One big massive hang anxiety, that's how it was. But we don't want to put people off, do we? People who are listening to this and who are thinking, actually, I do want to stop drinking, but I'm a bit nervous what you've just said again. It does change, doesn't it? And it does start… the green shoots start to arrive, don't they, Millie?

Millie Gooch: 100%, and I think knowing that is important, because a lot of people don't know that, and that's almost worse, because they're like, what is this? Why am I feeling this way? I think if you know that that period

Millie Gooch: is gonna come. And to be fair, it doesn't come for everyone, like, it might not come for you, you might, you know, stop drinking one day and your sleep is lovely and gorgeous, this is not the same for everyone. But if that does happen, like, knowing… maybe having some, like, tools in place of things that you know help you, things that will help with your anxiety that aren't alcohol, I think the more prepared you can be, the better.

Ian: Yeah, brilliant. If we're looking ahead, Millie, how do you think our understanding of alcohol's impact on mental health will evolve over the next, let's say, the next decade? Are we going to get better at this, do you think?

Millie Gooch: I hope so. There's, like, an optimistic part of me and a pessimistic part of me. The optimistic part of me is like, yes, I think we're gonna start having these conversations. There is also a pessimistic part of me that is, like, we are still so dismissive of this topic and don't want to tackle it, because anyone that talks about it comes across as, like, preachy or judgmental. I think, I don't know if you saw, there was a whole, Stephen Bartlett saying that he had 3 glasses of wine on his

Millie Gooch: podcast, and it, like, ruined his, like, week and stuff, and people ran with it, and were…

Millie Gooch: Actually very quite mean, considering there were, like.

Ian: A million.

Millie Gooch: and other awful opinions on the internet that I think, you know, people should go after instead, but…

Millie Gooch: So I think, you know, it is such a contentious topic, alcohol, and people have a very strong emotional reaction when you first start talking about it. The minute I start talking about it, people are like, oh, she's trying to stop me from drinking, she's trying to take it away from me, and I'm like, I don't know you, I couldn't care less if you drink.

Millie Gooch: It doesn't bother me. So I think, like, there's that side of me as well that's a bit more… maybe not pessimistic, but realistic of, like, how far we're actually gonna get with this conversation over the next few years.

Ian: Yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah. I think you do forget as well, because, I know I've had a few conversations outside, like, with outsiders that are not in the community, and sometimes you're in the community, and you're like, oh, this is changing, because you can see it all happening in your little circle, and then like that, you read an article, or you see something posted on Facebook, or you speak to someone, and you're like, shit, we've still got a long way to go.

Millie Gooch: 100%. I think I've fallen victim to that too many times, of, like, even, like, a year into We Got Society, I was like, this is it. The world is gonna change, everyone's gonna get savour, and, like, 8 years later, I'm like, we've not actually made that much progress, so I thought… I think I stopped feeling that way, yeah, a few years in when I realized it was changing in my own little circles, but not necessarily, like, worldwide.

Ian: I think the mental health conversation is definitely a lot more on the table now. Whether it's on the table linked to alcohol is maybe another… a different thing, but Kelly, I don't know what you're like, but, you know, I have a much better, sort of, open relationship with my children about how they are generally feeling, and what's maybe bothering them, and…

Ian: you know, they know that can speak to me, and I think that's…

Ian: that's a generational thing, I think, if you know what I mean. I think it's getting better as well. I think parents, as they, you know, sort of… they've maybe sort of been a bit more open with their own mental health, and are a lot more willing to then talk to their children about it, and talk a bit more openly about it. So I think we're all a bit more open.

Ian: I think that the generation, maybe, of my age and before me.

Ian: didn't talk about mental health at all, you know, and I think so… I think generally, tell me what you think, Millie, but I think generally we're all getting better at talking about our mental health.

Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think so. I mean, my dad is 70, and I would say over the last

Millie Gooch: 5, 10 years, he's become way more open about talking about his feelings, like… and probably even with my mum, because I don't really remember as a kid, like… I was very lucky, I had a very lovely upbringing, my parents always told me they loved me, but they also had a very, like.

Millie Gooch: keep calm and carry on attitude of, like, you know, if I was ever upset, it was like, come on, like, get yourself together, like, I remember even going through, like, a breakup, and my mum had no time for it. She was like, come on, you can't be, like, moving around here, like… and I think that attitude is slowly changing. They are… they are way more open about having those conversations now, so I definitely see it with, like, the older people in my life, so I think…

Millie Gooch: I think people are being… I do worry sometimes that it goes the other way, though, of people are like, oh, everyone's talking about mental health these days, or like, oh, everyone's got a mental health problem these days, like, I don't know if sometimes people have that sort of attitude, which I hate, but yeah, I think generally people are getting much better.

Ian: Yeah, yeah.

Ian: what's on the agenda, Millie, in terms of the next week or month? What's some of the exciting things you've got cooking in terms of things that are going to, sort of,

Ian: You know, sort of.

Ian: Hopefully make a bit of a change in the alcohol-free world.

Millie Gooch: Oh, now you're asking, do you know what? At the moment, I'm… I just don't even know what I'm doing tomorrow, so I have to look… I'll have to look ahead. I do know we've got… what have we got? Next week, I'm actually going… we've got a meet-up in Birmingham, which will be fun, so we're doing that.

Millie Gooch: I've got a few more podcasts that I'm doing. What else have I got? God, I don't even know. I'm actually going to a wedding this weekend, so that's… I'm going to Latvia, so Friday to Monday, I'll be in Latvia. And then, yeah, when I get back, we'll have a Birmingham meet-up, a few more podcasts.

Millie Gooch: And just more anxiety promotion, to be honest. This whole month is, like, just going and doing podcasts and speaking to people, and…

Ian: Yes.

Millie Gooch: it's one of those things where you have to be quite reactionary, like, I'll just get a call and be like, right, you've got to do this tomorrow, and I'm like, okay, great. So, yeah. But the Wi-Fi's actually broken at my flat. I'm actually at my mum and dad's house. Luckily, they live about 15 minutes down the road, and they're not even in, so I just let myself into that.

Millie Gooch: I'm hoping that my Wi-Fi is going to be better, because otherwise, I've got no hope of doing anything this week.

Ian: All right.

Ian: Question from me.

Alcohol Uncensored: Bingo.

Ian: Sorry, last question for me, Millie. If you want… if people are going to take one thing away from reading the book Anxiety, what's your… what's your hope it is?

Millie Gooch: Oh, I hope that it allows them

Millie Gooch: to be more compassionate with themselves, because I think we blame ourselves and really beat ourselves up and, like, shame ourselves for the way maybe we have been with alcohol, the way we've acted under the influence of alcohol, and, you know, thinking, oh my god, am I a terrible person? Because I did XYZ when I was drinking, and I hope it will give people more, like.

Millie Gooch: compassion, because they will see how alcohol affects their brain, and it doesn't make them a bad person, and all those kinds of things. I think it will give people a bit more of a permission slip to be kind to themselves.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: Brilliant. Brilliant.

Alcohol Uncensored: question was just going to be, how are you feeling about it being released?

Millie Gooch: Terrified. Terrified.

Millie Gooch: I always get really, like.

Millie Gooch: I don't know, because you just never know how people are gonna perceive it, you never know how, like, people are gonna read it, and there's some stuff in there that I've, like, never talked about before, so I think that's, like, a big thing that I'm a bit like, oh, but it'll be fun. It's always a bit actually weirdly anticlimactic on the day, because

Millie Gooch: the day comes around, and you're like, oh, nothing's changed, like, you just… you just know that it comes out that day, but you don't, like, I'm not having a big party or anything like that, so I'm just like, I wake up in the morning, and I'm like, oh, cool, it's out in the world now. Right, I'm just gonna make breakfast then, like, it just sort of goes back to normal, which is a bit of a weird feeling.

Alcohol Uncensored: No, it's, thank you for sending us a copy, because, it was an absolutely amazing read. Really excited for you for it came out. I think it'll be a massive ha- and I'm not just saying that because you're sitting in front of us, I really do, it's excellent.

Millie Gooch: Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for inviting me on.

Ian: You're quite… oh, it's been brilliant talking to you, really enjoyed it. Wait, when does the book come out? It's next month.

Millie Gooch: September, yeah, so I think we're on… actually, I think it is literally 5 weeks today, because it comes out on a Tuesday.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: Yeah, yeah. Hey, when it comes out, when it's in Waterstones, I can look at it and go, I know her. Yeah.

Ian: She met me. She's met me.

Millie Gooch: Why don't you go as far as to say we're mates?

Millie Gooch: It's fun, I'm like.

Ian: Get that on the… get that on the gram, Kelly, yeah.

Ian: Millie, thank you very much indeed. Lovely, really, and wish you, yeah, you too, and wish you all the best with the book, and

Ian: No doubt we're going to see you again soon, so yes.

Millie Gooch: Definitely. Thanks, guys. Thank you.

Alcohol Uncensored: Thanks. Hi, everybody.

Ian: Kelly, before we go, before we go, Kelly, what do people do? If there's the thought of this? I thought, right, that's it now, we're gonna join, what do we do?

Ian: Very cool.

Alcohol Uncensored: want to join us. Actually, Ian, I've posted on socials to say that if people want a couple of weeks access free to the community and the app, and the forum, and the Zooms, then I'm happy to give them access to it. It's hard to describe what the community's really, really like until you're in there, and I've had a lot of messages about people being apprehensive about joining and stuff, so if anyone wants to give it a go.

Alcohol Uncensored: to try the Zooms and meet some community members, and download the app, and chat on the forum, or have a read through there. Send me a message, team at Alcohol Uncensored.co.uk, or on socials.

Alcohol Uncensored: And I'll get you some access setup.

Ian: Brilliant. Can't do much more.

Ian: Right, guys, enjoy what you're doing, and take care. See you later!

Alcohol Uncensored: Bye.