JP 17 Aug
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Cam Meads: [00:00:00] Welcome to the latest episode of Kanda Better Places podcast. I'm Cam Meads, associate director in our strategic communications team here at Kanda Consulting. Today we're delighted to be joined by someone who has been at the heart of London journalism for many years. He was at the Evening Standard for nearly 30 years and is the former business editor and associate editor.

Cam Meads: After a venture into the freelance world, he's about to join The Telegraph's business team as their retail editor. He has won and been nominated for multiple journalism awards, and his name has been synonymous with London's business media for a very long time. It's a privilege to welcome, um, Jonathan Prynn to the podcast.

Cam Meads: Jonathan, um, welcome, and, and, and how are you?

Jonathan Prynn: Well, I'm very well. I'm feeling very good about myself after that introduction, Cam. Thank you very much. That's all true. I mean, basically,

Cam Meads: yeah. But, uh, [00:01:00] yeah. No, it's good, good to hear it all laid out like that. Yes, yes. Um, and, and, and, um, your reputation precedes you, obviously, being in s- in such a prominent role for so long.

Cam Meads: Um, really interested to know, uh, you know, you've had a, had a bit of a time, as mentioned there, into the freelance world and, and a time to possibly sit back and reflect. And interested to know, um, what your, what your reflections are on your time at, at the Standard, um, being there for 30 years and, and obviously a bit of a career before that as well.

Cam Meads: If you've had any time to pause and reflect, um, and what, what you've noticed about possibly the s- the state of business media and how that has changed over the last 30 years.

Jonathan Prynn: Yeah. Um, some very good questions there. I mean, first of all, I would say, Cam-

Jonathan Prynn: Be covering and writing about London business and London consumer affairs and all the other things I've written about, uh, over the past thir-thirty years almost at the Standard and what, [00:02:00] what, uh, unceasingly interesting, fascinating, tumultuous city London is, both in, in the city, in Canary Wharf and the financial services side of it, but also all the other industries, the tech, the, the life science, the, the, the hospitality scene, the arts and culture scene.

Jonathan Prynn: You know, just what an incredible city it is. Uh, and I'm gonna miss having that, uh, focus on, on London, although it's obviously gonna be very interesting to write more nationally in future, uh, at the Telegraph, um, at a time when the government's obviously trying to focus the whole balance of the national economy slightly away from London.

Jonathan Prynn: But yeah, I've loved writing about London. One of my reflections I, I think quite a lot about is how some of the drama has gone out of business journalism. I started in nineteen [00:03:00] eighty-seven as a very raw rookie business reporter on, on a magazine, or actually a weekly newspaper called Corporate Money. I started in the summer or autumn, maybe, of nineteen eighty-seven.

Jonathan Prynn: Almost the very first story I got involved in was the crash of October eighty-seven, uh, which was an im-immensely dramatic, um, volatile period when- FTSE was falling by, you know, ten, fifteen percent a day at one stage. It was, it was absolutely extraordinary time. And then the late '80s and '90s were a time of incredible swashbuckling, um, takeovers, leverage buyouts, mega mergers.

Jonathan Prynn: Uh, you had these very, um, charismatic business leaders. Some of them turned out to be absolutely crooks. Uh, some of them were very articulate captains of [00:04:00] industry, the likes of which we don't see so much now. I think if there's one thing business journalism has slightly lost, is that, it's that drama. Um, i-it's a, it's a safer place now.

Jonathan Prynn: Companies are safer. Chief executives are more guarded in what they say. There's less... I'd say there's less leadership in the business community than there used to be. Maybe there's fewer crooks. I think there almost certainly are. Um, and I think you need a few rogues on the scene just to make it interesting.

Jonathan Prynn: Obviously, you don't want people to, to lose their hard-won investments, but it was a very dramatic time. Huge bankruptcies, companies going down. As I say, these amazing, uh, mergers. Who will ever forget the, the, the days of, uh, RBS and the, the, and the build-up to the financial cr-crash of, um, '07, '08? It was an, it was an amazing ride.

Jonathan Prynn: I've... And I've had, I've had a very thrilling time. [00:05:00] I, I do think we are living in a slightly quieter, cautious time for business journalism, but, um, but, you know, there you go. Everything has a cycle, right?

Cam Meads: Yeah. I think it's a really, really interesting reflection and- Um, you know, that's some-- I, I, I agree that something that, that has probably been, been taken up in the last twenty or so y- ten, ten years, certainly, is I think, um, risk aversion has gone up, possibly with, um, all sorts of business leaders.

Cam Meads: Um, and, you know, rightly or wrongly, you know, of course, that's to look after their share price and other things. Um, but I suppose when you're thinking about... And a lot of these are our clients that are trying to sort of nozzle into, into the media and position their companies in a certain way. What do you think-- How-- what would your advice be to, to those companies to say something unique and [00:06:00] different, but without- Well- -scaring off the markets or, or, or their stakeholders?

Jonathan Prynn: My, my advice would be back yourself, have confidence. I mean, these people who run major companies, FTSE one hundred, FTSE two fifty, you know, they're not there, um, without reason. They're obviously hugely talented people. They should back themselves to speak, um, clearly and, um, i-in, in a human voice. I think that's crucial.

Jonathan Prynn: I think too many chief executives now get bogged down in jargon- Mm. -acronyms, business acronyms, and unfortunately, it just does not cut through to the, to the general reader, to the, to the, the consumer that maybe they're trying to invest or the-- uh, to address or the lay investor. Maybe it works for the city audience, but I find it so frustrating the way in which so many business leaders go to their safe space when they're trying to communicate and just stay [00:07:00] in that world of the business jargon, the acronyms, the financial jargon, financial ratios, all those things which of course are important, but it just doesn't cut through.

Jonathan Prynn: It doesn't sound human. And I think that's one of the frustrations, as you say, a lot of risk, risk aversion going on. People are... End up as a general. They're, you know, they've got in their head. They should back themselves. They should think, "Yeah, I do have the, the... One of the reasons why I'm chief executive of this business, I do have the, the, the ability, um, I'm articulate enough and I'm smart enough to talk in a way that they understand."

Jonathan Prynn: And I think that's a-- that has been a real loss in the last twenty years. Um, the, the, the lack of chief executives who will sit round, um, in a room with a load of journalists And talk in a way that [00:08:00] business people can, can relate to and understand. I think that's been a loss. I think one or two are brilliant at it still.

Jonathan Prynn: Um, Jamie Dimon at JP Morgan does a, a roundtable with journalists in London every year, and he's absolutely brilliant at communicating and is prepared to speak on almost any subject you wanna raise. Uh, Simon Wilson does the same at Next. He's brilliant, communicates so well. Obviously has confidence in, in his own ability to talk without putting his foot in it.

Jonathan Prynn: You know, we need more of those characters.

Cam Meads: what's the benefit of doing that as a business leader? So you mentioned JP Morgan. What com-- 'Cause I suppose the hard thing to articulate sometimes to business leaders is, um, what's the actual commercial benefit of, of putting your head above the parapet and saying something that is interesting?

Cam Meads: So what do you think? Obviously, from your side, there's a benefit for you of, of getting the [00:09:00] story and saying s-

Jonathan Prynn: I, I think there's-- they need to step outside their very narrow world sometimes of, um, seeing it purely i-in terms of a sort of, uh, profit and loss account for their individual business. Which is obviously that, that's what they're paid to do to, to make their business more profitable. But I think there's a broader picture as well, a broader societal picture.

Jonathan Prynn: These people are huge employers. Uh, their, their products and services are huge parts of our everyday lives. And more broadly, the private sector is the, um, the engine of the economy. Uh, without the private sector firing on all cylinders, we don't have, uh, we, we don't have growth. And without growth, we know what happens.

Jonathan Prynn: We don't get the tax revenues, the public finances are in a mess, we can't pay for the public services that we need. And I do think since the financial crisis, we've, we've-- Britain has [00:10:00] operated in a fairly

Jonathan Prynn: Anti-private sector, anti-business environment. Even-- I was a bit disappointed to hear Andy Burnham, one of his first statements was to say, you know, after he delivered twenty P off bus fares or whatever it was, he said, "Oh, we've got to stop the supermarkets ripping people off." It felt like a cheap shot to me, and it felt, you know, the supermarkets have been subjected to endless rounds of, uh, regulatory scrutiny.

Jonathan Prynn: It's an intensely competitive market. Um, of course, regulators and, you know, need to keep an eye on what supermarkets and other retailers are, are doing and cut out sharp practices. But I just feel from the top, we need a slightly more pro-business Uh, for instance, I know

Jonathan Prynn: [00:11:00] As well, and they need to be slightly less risk-averse and stop thinking only about, oh, you know, what's in it for me? What's in it for my shareholders? What's in it for my company if I speak a little bit more openly? They've gotta, they've gotta back themselves, as I say, and they've got to back the private sector.

Jonathan Prynn: They-- these are hugely important ambassadors, these people, uh, the, the men and women who lead, um, our, our biggest companies. And that's why I think it's partly beholden on them to try and push the private sector, business, business, uh, free enterprise, uh, a-as an, you know, as a noble ambition and something more importantly, that's crucial for the success of the, of the country.

Cam Meads: And with hospitality, which you mentioned there, and, and retail, likewise with, uh, house builders, I think in London at the moment are, are coming under a bit of flak. You might have seen the greens, uh, the boroughs that they have control [00:12:00] over are starting to take a bit of a, bit of a shot at house builders not delivering enough affordable housing.

Cam Meads: When it comes to issues like viability, which isn't a particularly interesting issue for anyone outside of the bubble to listen to or, or, or talk about. Similarly, with challenges around hospitality and retail and then now with house building, what, what would your message be to how to tell that message in a way that isn't just, isn't just about bean counting and numbers, but is a w-- is, is telling that message in a way that resonates with a wider audience and that achieves some sort of cut-through?

Jonathan Prynn: Yeah. Good question. I mean, I think hospitality have actually been quite successful in that because everyone can relate to a restaurant, everyone can relate to a pub. They have a warm, fuzzy feeling about hospitality generally, except maybe when the price of a pint goes up to eight quid or, you know, they can't eat out [00:13:00] i-in a, in a pizza joint for less than a hundred quid.

Jonathan Prynn: You know, people get upset about that. But I think generally, hospitality is an industry that has- Has been able to get across its deep frustration at what it feels has been a series of blows, um, that have made it harder and harder for the sector to thrive. We know that a lot of the pubs are going out of business, a lot of restaurants are struggling, and they, they have shouted it loud.

Jonathan Prynn: And I, I... in a way, I think they, they can talk in a, in a language that, uh, people can understand and, and as a result, they, they did get this, um, uh, twenty percent, um, rebate on business rates from Andy Burnham as one of his, you know, as one of his first, uh, uh, decisions. And, uh, you know, every-everyone goes to a restaurant, everyone goes to a pub, everyone goes to the high street, and people are really worried about the state of their high streets.

Jonathan Prynn: It's a, it's a [00:14:00] very, you know, it's very high up people's, uh, everyday concerns and quite a big, um, influence on how they vote. House building is, is a, is a trickier one. Uh, I do wish that the sector could find a better word than viability 'cause it is a bit of a turn-off and basically it means c- you know, c- does it make sense?

Jonathan Prynn: Can we afford to build this property? And I, I think they, you know, they could maybe come up with a, a better, a better word for that. Um, and I do think the house building sector is, is one that's guilty of sometimes, uh, absolutely burying itself in, in jargon and ratios and financial, um, financial words that people d-can't relate to.

Jonathan Prynn: Um, and also I think people feel may-- You know, there was a time when the house building sector was making huge amounts of profit. The, [00:15:00] um, the chief executives, the, the boards were making unbelievable amounts of money and so on. I, I, I think there's a slight-slightly less sympathetic, um, attitude towards the, the house building sector.

Jonathan Prynn: But nevertheless, you know, it's another essential sector, and without the house building sector and the public sector, uh, and governments and local authorities all working to-together, we're never gonna get the homes that, that, that we need in this country. So really important that the house building sector gets its message across in a, in a way that, uh, is, you know, suggests that it is, you know, it's got the general public on its side.

Jonathan Prynn: Um- So yeah, I would, um... I, I think there are some companies that do it better than others, but some come across as just sort of profit-making machines. And sometimes the quality of the homes also doesn't appear to be, uh, what people [00:16:00] require.

Cam Meads: Yeah. So house builders, you think could look to other sectors such as hospitality for lessons learned about how to cut through and, and build a, a narrative arc that s- has some personal or emotive thread throughout?

Cam Meads: Is that- I

Jonathan Prynn: th- I think so. Yeah, I think so. I mean, there, you know, although it's a totally different, uh, spending decision to a pint that you might have two or three times a week or more often, uh, or less often. Uh, obviously you only buy a house once every five, 10, 15, 20 years. It's a, it's a different decision and it's...

Jonathan Prynn: But it's an intensely personal decision. Obviously, it has a huge impact on your, on your life. Um, yeah, and I think house builders should reach out a little bit more maybe to address that sort of aspiration of, um, the people who are their, their end consumers.

Cam Meads: Yeah. And just to, [00:17:00] just to, to move on a little bit.

Cam Meads: So a number of our clients, um, and companies we work with are developers and investors, particularly with, you know, we've got schemes of all shapes, all sizes, their own set of local and political challenges. Should... And this is a bit of a loaded question. Should they be afraid of the media and, or media interest, and how should they factor in engagement, do you think, into what their plans are?

Jonathan Prynn: Yeah. It's a tough one, isn't it? Because, you know, we need developers, we need the, the... what the developers bring, regeneration, housing, retail, office space. We need all of that. But developers, they're a bit like kind of landlords, and there are certain categories of sort of characters in society that are always cast as being the baddies or nearly always.

Jonathan Prynn: Um, and, and developers are definitely in that space. Uh, and there's hardly a [00:18:00] major development in London I can think of that hasn't upset some group of people, whether it's, um, you know, damaging a historic view or damaging a-- or, or taking someone's light or, um, taking, you know, overshadowing a, a, a historic building or...

Jonathan Prynn: You know, there's almost, almost always a negative and, and a group of, um, uh, campaigners who start, uh, organize themselves to oppose that development. And I, I think developers find it very hard to get on, on the right side of that argument, and I think that it, it's very, um, frustrating. But I think they just need to recognize and sort of understand that in, uh, uh, you know, in the newspaper world, um, you know, a group of ordinary people who appear to have been hard done by versus the developer, that group of [00:19:00] ordinary people is always gonna be the, the voice that's heard first.

Jonathan Prynn: That's always gonna be the headline. Okay, the developer gets their quote at the end. Uh, I, you know... And I know a lot of developers are hugely frustrated by that. They think they've got a good story to tell, but they find it very hard to get that in the headline, get that in the top half of the story. You know, their quote, as I say, is, is relegated to the bottom of the story and it, and it's very, very frustrating for them.

Jonathan Prynn: But You know, I, I think they just have to, again, have confidence in their own scheme. Um, understand that... You know, I sometimes hear developers rather dismissing local opposition to a proposal as, "Oh, we always get a bit of that. We always get a bit of noise." You know, you'd expect that. And I think they need to sometimes be a little bit more accommodating and understanding of why people feel upset or hacked off about a, a particular proposal, particularly if it's a really, you know, really, really big scheme, as a lot of them are in London, particularly [00:20:00] central London.

Cam Meads: I think it's... Yeah, yeah. They, um, it's-- I think sometimes with, with situations like that when you get local opposition is there's always a discussion around that's a communications challenge or a media challenge. But actually, a lot of the time it's an engagement challenge. So have, have local people actually been listened to?

Cam Meads: And yes, there is, there is a component sometimes where, um, the scheme just has to proceed or criticism isn't warranted at all. Um, but there is an element there of, you know, what is the engagement right? How has feedback been reflected or not reflected, and how is it being played back, um, through to the community?

Cam Meads: That plays out through comms and media, but I don't think fundamentally it's a comms problem, which I think often gets mis- um, misplaced. Where, where have you seen... So you, you said before about it's important for developers to get on the front foot if they [00:21:00] want to counter that. How do you think they do that?

Cam Meads: And then if a scheme goes off the rails, where have you seen companies handle that well, and then you've seen companies handle that not so well? And, and what... Yeah. W- how does... How, how do they make a difference there?

Jonathan Prynn: Um, it's a good question. I, I, I'll g-- I'll give you an example from a few years ago where the way we reported two different schemes at the Evening Standard was completely different.

Jonathan Prynn: Two, two contem- uh, contemporaneous schemes. One was Battersea Power Station, uh, and one was Earls Court, which were two schemes, two major developments were going on at the same time. Battersea Power Station got a lot of positive coverage. Um, for one thing, the developers were taking a much-loved London building, the [00:22:00] power station, which had been derelict for thirty years, and were re-rejuvenating it, investing very heavily in it, restoring it to give it some use, uh, a new lease of life, new purpose.

Jonathan Prynn: Um, and they were investing, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of doing that. And I think, you know, Londoners were very excited. We were very excited at the Standard. At the same time, uh, another company, CapCo, Capital & Counties, were taking a, a, another, um, London landmark, which was the Earls Court, uh, Exhibition Center, scene of many Famous concerts and so on, which many Londoners have gone to and have happy memories of.

Jonathan Prynn: Now they were gonna build a development not totally dissimilar to the Battersea Power Station development, um, driven by housing, but a lot of, you know, quite upmarket housing. Um, and but also a mixed-- big mixed-use [00:23:00] scheme. But they were gonna knock it down. They were knocking down Earls Court. So immediately that was a different story.

Jonathan Prynn: The story was developer knocks down, demolishes much-loved London landmark. Battersea Power Station was developer rebuilds and restores much-loved London land-landmark, and they got totally different coverage as a result. And I know poor old CapCo bosses were tearing their hair out. They were-- they couldn't understand why we were being so horrible about their scheme as the Battersea Power Station scheme was bang on the front page and written up in glowing terms.

Jonathan Prynn: So that was a really good example of two different not dissimilar projects that got completely different, uh, coverage in, in the Standard. But I think you, you know, you have to think, uh, about what you're giving back. Um, obviously they do. They, they think hard about those one oh six contributions and all the rest of it.

Jonathan Prynn: But can you sell this development? Is it, is it something that Londoners are [00:24:00] gonna appreciate for decades, you know, maybe centuries to come, or is it just another box, um, that's gonna, you know, obviously bring some much needed office space or whatever. But also might, uh, annoy people because it's taking light, it's, it's too high, it's whatever.

Jonathan Prynn: So I think you have to think very hard what are you bringing? What are you bringing to the community? What are you putting back? Um, so there's that. Uh, I, I think the engagement, uh, piece is, is also very important and Something ha-i-it has to feel that it's not just going through the motions. Sometimes it does.

Jonathan Prynn: Sometimes it comes over as purely box ticking, um, going through the motions. Every-- all the consultations are called on conclusion, and, and that annoys people as well, upsets people. I think there has to be an element in which developers say, "We are listening, and we will change our plans if, [00:25:00] if local people are not happy with what we're proposing."

Cam Meads: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And with the, with the way that media report schemes as well, I think it's also... Even if there isn't anything particularly interesting to say, it's always worth, I think, getting on the front foot and saying what you have to say or what the benefits are because, you know, ultimately journalists and, uh, people that reads papers or, or media online, you know, they're, they're not mind readers.

Cam Meads: They need, they need to absorb what, uh, con- you know, what the key messages are or what the scheme actually is aiming to deliver all the benefits. And sometimes I think s-staying silent just means that that vacuum gets filled elsewhere. Um, and, and ultim- You've gotta communicate. Yeah, you gotta communicate.

Cam Meads: Exactly. Um, just, just quickly because I know we're s-running out of time a little bit. Um, you mentioned Andy Burnham earlier on, uh, in this podcast. [00:26:00] His, his focus is obviously, is a, is a monumental shift, I think, i-in the UK at the moment, which is a, a pulling of the political center up to the north of England.

Cam Meads: What... I'm interested, really interested to know what your take is being a, a former London-based and focused journalist. With the media being a London, you know, physically London-located industry generally, how do you think this is going to affect journalism in the UK? Um, and what do you think that this might mean for how investment stories get told in the UK?

Jonathan Prynn: Yeah, very interesting. I mean, you know, I love London. I've reported about London for thirty years. Um, I, I just think it's the, the greatest city in the world and, you know, I would-- I, I lived there. I raised my children there. I adore London. But I do also recognize that this country, that the UK has a problem, [00:27:00] um, that probably, and I think Ber- Andy Burnham is right.

Jonathan Prynn: For the last forty-five years or so, um, the, the-- there's been a hollowing out of m-many of the regions of the UK. Um, a-a-and, and that's kinda reflected in a small way, even in the way British newspapers, um, structure themselves. 'Cause when I started on Fleet Street, most of the major newspapers would have a northern correspondent, a southwestern correspondent, a stringer in the East Anglia, a stringer in the, you know, a northeast correspondent, someone in Wales.

Jonathan Prynn: And often they were, you know, full-time staff journalists. Gradually, that national coverage has been wound down for all sorts of reasons, a lot of it to do with cost. Um, and I, I think, you know, coverage of the regions has, has diminished as a result. It'd be interesting to see now if that starts to pivot back the other way.

Jonathan Prynn: I, I [00:28:00] suspect we will start definitely seeing more Manchester correspondents or North of England correspondents coming back on the major newspapers because clearly there is a very, very strong ambition to Take some of that enormous power, wealth, and influence from, from, from London and, and distribute it around the country and, and entirely rightly so.

Jonathan Prynn: Um, you know, we do as a country, we desperately need the regions to have-- to be firing on all cylinders as well as London. Um, so it's gonna be interesting to see whether it really does make a difference or whether it's, you know, like many attempts in the past, it turns out to be a bit of a gimmick and, uh, you know, the, the, it, it doesn't make any real change to the economics of the country outside London.

Jonathan Prynn: I, I hope it does because I think it's-- Britain is a much healthier, um, [00:29:00] better place, um, if, if the regions are f-- are doing well and, and, you know, firing on all cylinders, as I say, and making their own economic contribution to the overall national economy. So, yeah, I mean, it's a-- I think it is important. I think it's important that , excuse me, even on a very symbolic level that we've got a prime minister with an obvious northern accent who comes from an obvious northern background.

Jonathan Prynn: We've had a succession of prime ministers who sound like they come from London and the Southeast and, and it's time, you know, it's, it's time for something different. So be interesting.

Cam Meads: Yeah. And do you have any indications or any thoughts on how you think the media might respond to this seismic shift?

Jonathan Prynn: Well, as I say, I think, you know, ninety percent of national newspaper journalists are based in London, so I think, um, they will... I don't-- That's, [00:30:00] that's a figure I've plucked from the air, by the way, but I suspect it's probably not too far from the, the reality. Um, I, I, I think we will see some attempt or at least some thought given to whether they need to, whether newspapers need to put some more resource into, into the regions, particularly maybe the North of England, where it all seems to be happening at the moment.

Jonathan Prynn: But I've not heard of anything particularly happening yet, but it's early days. But I, I think we will, we could well see a little mini Fleet Street developing in, in Manchester.

Cam Meads: Maybe. Maybe something to, to watch out for. Um, finally, just before we let you go, Jonathan, you're moving into a new role shortly in The Telegraph's business team as retail editor, covering for Hannah Boland while she's on maternity leave.

Cam Meads: What... Can you give us an indication about what you're most looking forward to, what your focus areas are likely to be? And, you know, how does retail change how you're gonna look at issues such, such as the [00:31:00] built environment, such as high streets, repurposing space, retail-led regeneration? What, what are you thinking?

Cam Meads: I know you're not in the role just yet, but what are you thinking you're likely to focus on in your new role?

Jonathan Prynn: Well, I think, well, I'm very excited about it. Really looking forward to it. Um, it'd be interesting... I haven't written about from a national perspective since I was at The Times, uh, quite a few years ago for The Standard, so that's gonna be interesting.

Jonathan Prynn: I think, um-

Cam Meads: May-maybe you'll have a, a spot up in Fleet Street North, Jonathan.

Jonathan Prynn: Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'm, I'm gonna... Yeah, I'm gonna end up in Manchester. Who knows? Doubt it, but you know. Um, I, I, I think the, the health of the high street around the country is, is an enormous issue. Um, whether the high street, is it gonna continue as the main sort of retail, uh, physical retail space that we visit or are [00:32:00] high streets gonna be completely repurposed and, and changed?

Jonathan Prynn: You know, maybe more, um, residential development coming to high streets, more leisure. How... But the bigger question is: How do we make high streets healthy so that when we walk down a high street, we don't feel depressed? And people are very attached to their local town centers and high streets, so I think that's gonna be an absolutely massive issue.

Jonathan Prynn: I think there'll still be a focus on London. The West End is a absolutely global, um, retail center, you know, uh, globally renowned. So I think things that happen on, uh, uh, in the West End, on Oxford Street, on Regent Street, Bond Street, I think they're still gonna be of interest to a, a national readership, I hope.

Jonathan Prynn: Um, and also obviously our biggest retailers, uh, the, the retail names that everyone knows and loves, M&S, John Lewis, Next, Tesco, Sainsbury, obviously be having a huge focus on them as [00:33:00] well. So yeah, it'll be a mix, but obviously much more focus on, on those little high streets up and down the land outside London.

Cam Meads: Fascinating. Be very interesting to see, um, see how you get on there- Yeah ... and look forward to working with you a lot more in your new role, um, Jonathan. So all the best, uh, and I'm sure we'll, um, we'll be in touch on, on several other potential stories soon. That's, um- Sure. Yes. Thank you so much, Jonathan.

Cam Meads: That's all we've got time for, um, today. But just wanna say thank you so much for coming on the podcast, um, this morning. And yeah, all the best in your new role at The Telegraph. Um, and we look forward to seeing your, your name pop up in the news, news feeds a lot more shortly. Um, so thanks and, um, see you next time.