Ian: Greetings, everybody. You're quickly going to realize it's morning for us, and we're going to tell you all about it in a second, but it's good morning, good afternoon, good evening. How are you getting on? I'm Ian, and welcome to the Alcohol Uncensored podcast, episode 32.

Ian: which I co-host with the fabulous founder of the community, Kelly Cooney. Good morning, Kelly, how are you getting on?

Alcohol Uncensored: I'm good, Ian, how are you this morning?

Ian: I'm alright, actually. I'm feeling…

Alcohol Uncensored: I read it at the office.

Ian: ready to rock and roll, yeah, always am. I was up at 5.30, just dropping that in there, you know, and did what I needed to do, and, and got myself ready for our fabulous call this morning with a great guest who's from overseas. So yeah, we're… just so people know, it's 7 o'clock in the morning. That's what we're trying to get in, isn't it, Kelly? It's 7 o'clock in the morning here in, here in the UK.

Alcohol Uncensored: And I'll apologize in advance for probably not being able to find my words. I was outside with a sick dog at half past 1 this morning. Sick dog, but was still able to chase fox, so it's been an eventful night, but… Yeah.

Ian: Yeah, is he alright? Is he gonna…

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, I'll get him to the vets this morning. Yeah, he's not… he's not great, he's got a bit of an upset tummy, so I'll get him to the vets this morning, but… but he'll be fine. He'll be fine.

Ian: Yeah, yeah, oh, well, I hope so. We're up early this morning because our guest is in Japan, and so we need to work with some sort of irrelevant sort of time zones, if you like. So today, we've got with us David Deane Haskell. Good morning, David, how are you getting on?

David Deane Haskell: Good morning, Ian. I'm doing great, and it's not, as difficult for me. It's about 3 o'clock in the afternoon here, so thank you guys for getting up so early to accommodate. It's harder to figure out, between Asia and Europe. Asia and the United States is a lot easier. East Coast, West Coast kind of fits in, but…

David Deane Haskell: It's always some kind of a challenge for us to put these things together, so I really appreciate it, and I'm really excited to be here, so…

Ian: You're quite alright. We were keen to speak to you, so it works well for us as well, and it gets… it gets it done, if you know what I mean, so it works well for us. It means that, another evening at some point is going to be free, that we would normally be recording, so it's absolutely fabulous.

Ian: David is the author of a book entitled Wounded Angels, which is a memoir about trauma, grief, addiction, recovery, inner child work, and rebuilding an authentic voice.

Ian: We've been having a look at it between Kelly and I, and we're really quite excited to get into this topic, because it's coming at things from a really different angle. It's something that we haven't really…

Ian: really covered before. It was released last year, and I think David's got a really sort of unique and interesting story that I think is going to help us,

Ian: sort of talk about all of that. So, without further ado, David, do you mind just telling us a little bit about… about you, a bit about, sort of, your current life, if you know what I mean, and then we can maybe rewind and go back to, sort of.

Ian: Where things might have started for you.

David Deane Haskell: Sure, absolutely, thank you. Yeah, so currently, I'm writing, so I've been writing…

David Deane Haskell: Fiction and nonfiction. The fiction I've been writing for a long time, so I published my first book back in 2013, so I've been at it for a while as a writer, but I never wrote non-fiction. I wrote four,

David Deane Haskell: sci-fi books while I was still deep in the addictions, deep in the alcohol, deep in the codependency, and you know, like, I joke about thinking about Stephen King doing interviews and saying he never remembered writing Cujo.

David Deane Haskell: And I think that's kind of, like, where I was at. You know, I was like, I look back at my books, and I'm proud of them, but I was struggling, and I was like, writing was about the only thing I could do. I was really a hermit, stuck indoors.

David Deane Haskell: denying that I was, you know, I was just dying. You know, I mean, that was near the end of a really decades-long…

David Deane Haskell: Nightmare of addiction.

David Deane Haskell: And so, yeah, after that, when I finally was able to get sober, that was in 2018,

David Deane Haskell: I suddenly had a writer's block. So, 5 years, when I was doing the spiritual and emotional healing and recovery, I couldn't write anymore, and I was like, oh, great, you know, what am I supposed to do now? You know, I was like, is it… should I quit? Should I… you know, because I was really trying, but I think I just didn't have the bandwidth to do anything creative, because I was

David Deane Haskell: doing recovery, right? And that was… that was enough for anybody. But then finally, in 2024, right around the start of the year, I was just… the floodgates opened, and I was writing again, and I wrote, the sci-fi book that I'm… that I published this year,

David Deane Haskell: first, but then all of a sudden, I started… writing

David Deane Haskell: the inner child work that I'd been doing. So I'd been doing inner child as part of the recovery for years. And I wasn't writing it, I mean, journaling, yeah, but not writing, but it just kind of started writing itself, and I was like, no, I don't want to do that, I don't want to write nonfiction, I don't want to be on podcasts and talk about recovery, I don't want to do any of that stuff, you know? I want to write sci-fi and be a New York Times bestseller.

David Deane Haskell: But anyway…

Ian: I…

David Deane Haskell: wrote that, and now I'm just trying to figure out how to juggle between fiction and nonfiction, talk about healing, talk about the future, talk about past. I mean, that's all of the kind of stuff that I've been into, and I'm happy to be into it, and I'm really glad to be on a… in a place like this where we can have these conversations and talk about this stuff that

David Deane Haskell: really saved my life. And so, at this point.

David Deane Haskell: what I'm doing now is continuing the recovery, having conversations about it, writing about it, and doing the business of writing as well.

Ian: Brilliant. Amazing.

Ian: Do you mind just going right back to the start, Dave, and just talking about, maybe talking about your childhood, if that's okay, and just sort of, kind of, what… what started to bring you to where you are now, until you… you're sort of coming out the other end, if you know what I mean, but from what I'm… what I'm sort of picking up from what I've read, you kind of… you've…

Ian: You've had some things quite tough. Do you mind just talking a bit about that, please?

David Deane Haskell: Sure. Yeah, it was rough. It was a lot rougher than I was even able to admit, or like, you know, I always tried to kind of downplay it and say, oh, everybody has their own problems, whatever, but, I lost my mom when I was 4 years old, she passed away. So, you know, that's devastating in itself.

David Deane Haskell: And I was pretty much broken from that. And actually, the whole family really disintegrated. The… the… my grandparents divorced, the stepfather who was… she had married disappeared. Playmate cousins were gone. It was just like, you know, nuclear bomb went off when I was 4 years old.

David Deane Haskell: And then the more devastating

David Deane Haskell: fact of that, that I didn't learn until I was 9, was that she had taken her own life.

David Deane Haskell: Which… Traumatized, shocked, and shamed me.

David Deane Haskell: to a degree that I didn't understand or couldn't cope with at the time. I was 9 years old, right? And now I look back and I see all these, like, this flood of emotions, this toxicity, this trauma that hit me.

David Deane Haskell: Just felt like the worst thing… the worst day of my life, which, that's how Wounded Angel starts. That's… the book starts talking about that trauma. And,

David Deane Haskell: So, it just broke me, it just, you know, I felt, like, unlikable and unlovable to begin with, because I was already being bullied, I was always already struggling, but then it was like, oh, well…

David Deane Haskell: you know, what am I gonna do now? You know, what kind of a kid has his mother kill herself? What kind of a kid… you know, everybody must be right. You're not likable. You're not lovable. Is something really wrong with you? I don't know what it is, but I get confirmation about it all the time, and so I just really internalized this.

David Deane Haskell: idea that I was abrasive, and, you know, difficult, and a problem, and no good, and etc.

David Deane Haskell: And then, things got rough.

David Deane Haskell: even around the… I ended up leaving home when I was 14. There was some other stuff went down. A lot of stuff went down.

David Deane Haskell: And then things kind of calmed around, high school. And I got into music. Music kind of saved me for a while, but then…

David Deane Haskell: the addiction started to set in around college, around 18, 19 years old. And, I know I was listening to one of the podcasts, I know, Kelly, you said you got a bit of a later start as well, right, you know? I think for me, you know, I didn't… although my dad, he… he was alcoholic too, untreated.

David Deane Haskell: And he used to give me alcohol when I was 12, 11 years old, inappropriate stuff like that. So, I always had a really bad and inappropriate and unhealthy relationship with substances, and then that sort of took over.

David Deane Haskell: The music took over, school took over everything, and then really just took over my life for a long, long time.

Ian: Wow.

Alcohol Uncensored: just listening to the other day with my heart actually hurt when I think of that 9-year-old boy having to deal with all those emotions, and not knowing how to deal with them, or what they are. It actually hurt my heart when I was listening to you, so he had to go through that.

David Deane Haskell: Thank you. Yeah, yeah, and the thing, and thank you so much for saying that, and that's the sort of thing that I couldn't even say to myself, you know, because I looked back at that kid and I was like, oh, you know, he was no good, he couldn't even get along, but it's like, that poor kid!

David Deane Haskell: You know, and this is the… this went to the inner child work, totally went to the inner child work, you know, getting in touch with that kid, and loving him, and understanding, like, you didn't deserve that, you had nothing to do with that, and all the… and all these facets of,

David Deane Haskell: the inner child, for everyone that gets stuck in a trauma, we tend to look at that and sort of judge it, and judge ourselves, but the truth is, when we go through that kind of,

David Deane Haskell: That kind of a trauma.

David Deane Haskell: That's… there's nothing to do except…

David Deane Haskell: make peace with the fact that it wasn't your fault, right? And that's… when you start talking about people getting into addiction and these kinds of things.

David Deane Haskell: we… I did harm as an adult in addiction. You know, these are things I had to… I had to…

David Deane Haskell: do my best after I was able to get sober to… to start making up for some of those things. So I… I'm no saint. I'm no angel. And I thought that the, title, Wounded Angels, I was, like, debating, it's even in the book, like, should I even, you know, I'm not trying to call myself an angel, whatever, I'm no angel.

David Deane Haskell: But, you know, the children are, you know, as you said, your heart goes out to that 9-year-old. Mine, too.

David Deane Haskell: And it's like, yeah, that was a wounded angel. That's a, you know, a child. Children never deserve that kind of thing, and it happens so often, too.

Ian: Right.

Ian: Just tell us a bit about, sort of, you've said that you, sort of, that, you enjoyed music as a, sort of, slightly older child. Where did life take you beyond there to, sort of.

Ian: where did you get to the point, Dave, where you thought, you know what, I've got to do something about this? What was the story like from that sort of young child to… to when you actually started to…

David Deane Haskell: Hmm.

Ian: I think I need to turn this around, I need to start thinking about what's going on here, and start addressing the… and doing the inner work. But what was that story like?

David Deane Haskell: Oh, yeah. So, well, the music, I was a professional musician for… I still am. I did… I did some really awesome coaching clinics in Indonesia last year with a bunch of awesome kids, drummer kids, you know, I played drums at Disneyland for a long time. So, you know, that was a huge part of my life, and… but originally.

David Deane Haskell: I started with piano, and what it was was, I didn't really like the piano, but I was able to play at school, like, in third grade, and kind of get the bullies off my back, and, like, sort of be, you know, oh, Haskell, he's okay, you know, he can play piano, you know? So, like, for me, that was a protective thing. It's like, oh, if I… I'm a good musician, I can earn…

David Deane Haskell: safety, I can earn the right to be, like, kind of in the crowd if I'm, like, entertaining people. And so, you know, it kind of, it started in a bit of a toxic way, really, but I mean, for me, music has always been a way to

David Deane Haskell: be heard, and express myself just like writing, and now, just like these conversations, but I guarantee you, I could not have had this conversation even 2 years ago.

David Deane Haskell: You know what I mean? Like, most of my life, I wasn't able to have a conversation like this, so I was trying to do it through music, trying to do it through substances, because then I could kind of let loose. You know, so many people, with alcohol issues

David Deane Haskell: found early on that, hey, I'm popular.

David Deane Haskell: at the bar, if I'm drinking, and the drinking, you know, kind of did a lot for me for a while, until it didn't, until it started to… until all that stuff went away, right? So… so there was the drinking, too, and then, the writing, too. It was like, it was always me trying to have a conversation that I thought that I could never have, and I couldn't find people that would listen.

Ian: Yeah, yeah.

Ian: So, how old were you when you started to sort of… to decide that actually enough was enough, and there was a lot going on in there that you needed to start to sort of unpick and do the work on yourself? How old were you at that point?

David Deane Haskell: You mean to get sober?

Ian: Y-yeah, yeah.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah, it took a while. I was a slow… I was a slow learner. I… well, I'll tell ya, I dropped out of college and wound up in a psych ward when I was, like, 24, 25 years old, and everybody was telling me.

David Deane Haskell: that I had a problem except me.

David Deane Haskell: You know, so, I mean, I… and there's a woulda, coulda, shoulda in life, right? Like, what if… what if in my 20s I had gotten sober? But I didn't.

David Deane Haskell: And I promptly forgot that hospitals and recovery existed, and I just went on to, a really illustrious drinking career in Japan, where you can really get away with a lot in Japan. People… it's a drinking culture, you can buy alcohol 24-7, you can get away with bad behavior.

David Deane Haskell: So, I just kept going until my mid-40s, and things got darker, and I lost all the music jobs.

David Deane Haskell: I lost…

David Deane Haskell: my family, basically. I didn't have any friends. I was really a hermit for the last, like, 11 years of that. Hadn't worked… wasn't working at Disneyland anymore or anything like that. And I just was kind of like…

David Deane Haskell: had given up, I'd really failed at life. And again, this is all in the book, too. It's really, you know, kind of depressing to think about that. But…

David Deane Haskell: In the end, around age 47,

David Deane Haskell: I… things started to get wor… even worse. I took a trip to America.

David Deane Haskell: Back where drugs were available, so I could add drugs to the alcohol and all that kind of stuff. I really was spinning out, in a more physically dangerous way. I was already 100 pounds heavier.

David Deane Haskell: And in really, really terrible physical health. But things just got really scary bad, to the point where I started realizing, I'm gonna die, this is gonna kill me.

David Deane Haskell: And then, I was, yeah, I had a psychiatrist tell me that I was psychotic, so I was confirmed psychotic, right? It was like, I was wandering around Tokyo trying to find the hospital, like, calling her and over and over, because I was so confused. And I know the city.

David Deane Haskell: And I, you know, I just… at the time, I had finally had enough, and I guess I knew where to go, and I, you know, I sought help.

David Deane Haskell: professional help, and recovery community help, and I started addressing the problem. It wasn't my last drink, I did have one more relapse, and it was a nasty one a year later.

David Deane Haskell: And then, in 2018, that was my last drink, and then…

David Deane Haskell: starting the recovery process, but again, like, the codependency still had its hold on me, and I was still, like, making gods out of people. And, like, you know, this is just as much a drug as alcohol, honestly, and it was another 3 years before I could really address that and start doing inner child work, so…

David Deane Haskell: It was a long road, to say the least.

Alcohol Uncensored: Can you talk a little bit about the codependency plead, please, David? Could you share a little bit about that?

David Deane Haskell: Absolutely. A lot of people don't know, or aren't as familiar with it. The thing, you can get addicted to anything, you guys know that, and you can do addiction hopping, too. People can go from, you know, whatever, from alcohol to drugs to gambling, to food to whatever. And people addiction is one of those things, and for me.

David Deane Haskell: I had no self-esteem. Not low self-esteem.

David Deane Haskell: no self-esteem, or negative self-esteem. He's a… he's a… Bad guy. He's no good.

David Deane Haskell: So, I would attach myself to somebody who could control my life. I would be compliant, and I would be with a controller, and that would be my hero, I'd be their buddy, and I'd be like, well, tell me what to do.

David Deane Haskell: You know, and like, if… if I followed what they said, and they were pleased with me, then I felt like I was okay. But if they weren't happy with me, then I wasn't happy with myself. I didn't have any personal integrity, I didn't have any sense of, like, my own…

David Deane Haskell: spiritual nature, my own emotional nature, I was just sort of…

David Deane Haskell: addicted to that, you know, relationship, addicted to people, and so that really, retarded my recovery for a few years, because I was getting better, but still, I was, like.

David Deane Haskell: struggling so much with that. And, again, that's… that goes to the trauma, too. That goes to inner child stuff, because, I know that

David Deane Haskell: If you read the Codependence Anonymous book.

David Deane Haskell: They talk about inner child in that book. It's quite different than the AA book and a lot of the other recovery books that Codependence Anonymous addresses

David Deane Haskell: inner child, it addresses, being the loving, re-parenting yourself, loving inner parent, and all that kind of stuff. And so, I hadn't even really heard about that stuff, and I never really… and the first time somebody mentioned codependency to me, I was like, oh, that's a stupid, made-up word.

David Deane Haskell: You know, I never… because, of course, you know, my resistance, right? It's like, no way, I'm not gonna be that. It's bad enough I had to quit drinking. You want me to quit, you know, the addiction to people, too? I can't.

Alcohol Uncensored: It's so interesting, and I think a lot of our listeners will be intrigued with it, because I think a lot of the time when you remove alcohol from your life, even if you haven't got to the point of addiction, where you've started to lose things and, lose yourself, I think

Alcohol Uncensored: regardless of that, you start to do a bit of work on yourself, you start to be open-minded to all these things, and start looking back at your lives, so I think it'll be… I think our listeners will be really intrigued, and wham.

Ian: Yeah. I'm just… it's the first time I've come across the term, to be honest with you, David.

David Deane Haskell: Really?

Ian: to me.

David Deane Haskell: Interesting.

Ian: as being something that is kind of given a title, I can understand how every relationship's got a kind of balance, hasn't it, if you know what I mean? And I suppose that… and I'm probably going… I'm no specialist, Dave, as you're quickly going to realize, but I imagine a balanced relationship relies on two people being relatively equal in terms of.

David Deane Haskell: It does, it does, yes, absolutely. And that's what codependency is. And, you know, just like there's different degrees of, of, unhealthy relationships with alcohol, you've got some people that maybe drink a little too much on a Friday.

David Deane Haskell: Right? And they're… they're gonna be okay.

David Deane Haskell: Right? Then you've got some people who start to really have a problem, and it's affecting their lives. Then you've got some people who ended up in the gutter, like me. You know, and if you end up in the gutter, then you kind of have no choice but to address it. But there's different degrees of codependency, too. There's like, you know, you could just call it, like.

David Deane Haskell: toxic behaviors in relationship. Manipulative things, controlling things, but also walking on eggshells, being compliant, these kinds of things are also part of it. It's, kind of a dance that we do, but the thing is, I don't believe there's any sort of,

David Deane Haskell: one-way codependent relationship. I think it takes two to tango, you know? And it's, it's very much like a water seeks its own level kind of thing. You always hear about…

David Deane Haskell: people, an alcoholic and their enabler, and they'll go down, down, down, down, down, and then suddenly, when the alcoholic quits, that's when the marriage breaks up. That's when the friendship ends. That's… it seems so weird, right? It doesn't seem to make much sense, but the thing is, you're growing unhealthier together, in a way, and it's very… it's comfortable.

David Deane Haskell: as familiar. And that kept me in a marriage for far too long, because it was very codependent. My marriage, I finally only divorced in 2024, which is the first chapter of my follow-up book, which is coming. So, you know, I mean, it's a lifelong process, right? But the thing is, when you do start

David Deane Haskell: addressing relationship addiction, or what, you know, whatever you want to call it, unhealthiness in relationships.

David Deane Haskell: Then…

David Deane Haskell: the new relationships you form start out healthier, and the relationships that you're repairing can get healthy if both people are working and growing together. But if one person is kind of staying in one place, then it generally tends to…

David Deane Haskell: go away. And, yeah.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: Yeah, that's interesting. I guess the secret of a good relationship is that you bring the best out in each other, where what you're talking about there is you're almost bringing the worst out in each other, kind of thing.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah.

Ian: really balanced, yeah.

David Deane Haskell: Right, and that's, bringing the best out with each other, right, is that's, a support… it's not codependent. We're not depending and pushing each other down and leaning on each other so much that we're weighing each other down. Instead, we're supporting and lifting.

David Deane Haskell: Right? But not controlling either. Right? Because it's not bringing out the best in me if you tell me what to do. It's bringing out the best in me if you encourage me, and then, you know, maybe I ask you for help and you give me some feedback.

David Deane Haskell: But I'm free to disagree, you know, because I'm my own person. These kinds of things, are the hallmark of healthy relationships, and yeah, that's what I aim for these days. Hopefully.

Alcohol Uncensored: It sounds like your recovery really kind of started to take off when you addressed this.

David Deane Haskell: Yes.

Alcohol Uncensored: you uncovered of poor dependency. How did you… how did you find that awareness? How did you uncover that?

David Deane Haskell: People told me. People were like, David, you're codependent as hell. And I was like, no, I'm not. You know, same thing, same thing as with the alcohol. Everybody else was telling me that I had an alcohol problem, but I was like, no, it's the only good thing in my life.

David Deane Haskell: you know.

David Deane Haskell: typical delusion, right? This is the only thing that I can count on. It's the only thing that's keeping me afloat. But actually, it's the thing that's dragging us under the water. It was the same thing, and it was just another level of, needing to peel the onion.

David Deane Haskell: And, you know, get somewhere else, yeah.

David Deane Haskell: And I've heard a lot of people in recovery that have similar issues. It's not something that's that easy to address right off the bat, because if you're just getting sober, or if you're just coming off drugs.

David Deane Haskell: you gotta just deal with that for a while. You gotta make sure that you don't relapse, you gotta make sure that you're, you know, doing the right things to get off the substances, because as we all know, that's what's gonna kill you the fastest.

David Deane Haskell: Or the, you know, same thing with, compulsive overeating or something like that. Those kinds of things can really kill you fast.

David Deane Haskell: And these other… codependency can kill you, too. I certainly felt despondent enough and almost, you know, really ready to end it, because I was just so…

David Deane Haskell: So unwell and unhealthy, even after quitting.

David Deane Haskell: drinking, and I was, like, sober for years, but I still, like, felt miserable every day, because that was still dragging me down. So, I mean, it can kill you, but certainly, these kinds of things you can address over time.

David Deane Haskell: But not right away, and it took me… so I'm coming up on… so, 8 years next month, I will have no drinks in me. And the codependency I've been at, and the inner child thing I've been at for maybe 5 years or so?

David Deane Haskell: And, you know, it takes time, which nobody wants to hear. And it takes a lot… it's not easy, it's painful, which nobody wants to hear, but that's what it is.

Alcohol Uncensored: This is a thing we talk about quite often as well, because obviously, through addiction, you, like you said, you hurt people, you make mistakes, and you bring so much more guilt into your life, and the whole point of us having Alcohol Uncensored as a community is to try and help people that are questioning the relationship with alcohol to remove it now, before they start, kind of.

Alcohol Uncensored: losing themselves, making mistakes, having all that guilt and kind of shame that comes with addiction. And quite often in the community as well, as much as people

Alcohol Uncensored: Are in, alcoholics or addicts?

Alcohol Uncensored: M.

Alcohol Uncensored: It's still difficult for them, and it's still difficult to deal with those emotions when they remove alcohol from their life, and we quite often see that, as much as it's a long journey when someone's been deep in alcoholism, but it's really difficult even removing alcohol from your life in a world where alcohol is just…

Alcohol Uncensored: Engrossed in everything that we do.

Alcohol Uncensored: And it's, like, sitting with those emotions and being able to

Alcohol Uncensored: To talk about them is so important, even… even at that stage.

David Deane Haskell: Absolutely. Oh, definitely, yeah, no doubt. And I think, you know, the recovery process allows for that. The thing is, I would only caution people to be very…

David Deane Haskell: Aware of the people that you're relying on.

David Deane Haskell: And, you know, trust people who are trustworthy, but you… the thing is, another thing with codependents and addicts and the rest is that…

David Deane Haskell: or for me, anyway, I can only speak for myself, really. I would really quickly latch onto you if I thought you were a nice person, Kelly, and I trusted you, and you seemed okay. I would spill out my whole story, I would tell you, you know, I really need your help, and then I would, like, do anything to sort of, like.

David Deane Haskell: try to get an alliance or some kind of friendship going on, because I had so much trouble, you know, forming bonds and forming friendships. So I would overshare, and I would over, you know, overextend and sort of… and burden people. And I've, I've felt that the other way, too. It's, you know, because we're so desperate. When we quit.

David Deane Haskell: you know, good God, like, so many people are at the bottom. If you're not at the bottom, you're heading that way, so, you know, you're looking for a solution.

David Deane Haskell: But the thing is, if you, if you start getting tangled up with people that might not be as healthy as you might think themselves, and they're, you know, they're not really focusing on their own lives, then you can get into these kind of codependent things, which can be toxic.

Ian: What I also find quite interesting is… am I right in thinking you were writing the fiction books when all this was kind of going on as well, David? Have I got that right?

David Deane Haskell: I wrote… I was writing… I was writing them…

David Deane Haskell: when I was still actively drinking and doing drugs.

Ian: Yeah.

David Deane Haskell: And then I had that long rider's block, so I didn't really write anything until about 2024. So I really had to address the alcohol and the codependency head-on

David Deane Haskell: And I wasn't really doing much creatively.

David Deane Haskell: And then I started writing again in 2024, so it was kind of, when I was a bit on the other side of things, I think.

David Deane Haskell: I'd say the biggest, the biggest, recovery years for me were probably 2020 and 2021.

Ian: Right, because it sounds like almost the stopping drinking and the recovery from that almost then allowed all this sort of… all this to come out, if you like, and it sounds like suddenly you've had this flood of… and I'm sorry, again, I'm going to describe this badly, I apologize, but you have this sort of flood of sort of a self-awareness, and suddenly.

Ian: almost like it's so cathartic, I imagine, that you can then get it down in writing, and you can actually get it all out of you, and it sounds like that's then going to be for the benefit of readers who have similar… similar sort of situations and issues. Have I got that right? Is that how it's kind of… has it worked like that?

David Deane Haskell: Well, yes and no. I did do a lot of writing.

David Deane Haskell: recovery writing, this isn't published. And that kind of thing, when I was in 2020, 2021, I was writing, you know, I was doing, like, you know, inventories and doing that kind of thing, and doing, self-awareness exercises and gratitude lists and all these kinds of things to try to build myself up a little bit, with the help of some people, some really good people that I trusted.

David Deane Haskell: And, were helping me. But I wasn't writing anything for publication.

David Deane Haskell: And it was all probably so…

David Deane Haskell: I mean, it was such a maelstrom of stuff and shit, you know, it's like, it wouldn't be anything anybody could decipher, even. But it was all coming out, it was all coming out, it was starting to address all these things that had been there for decades. And, so when I finally started writing something that was something to be published.

David Deane Haskell: I was on the other side of…

David Deane Haskell: I wasn't on the other side of everything, but I was… I was in the process at that point of doing regular inner child work. So that… that has to do with, like, if you get triggered, in a regular… the example that I use is…

David Deane Haskell: you know, if Kelly and Ian, went off to dinner and didn't invite me, right, I might feel, like, hurt and disappointed. That's an adult reaction. But if I…

David Deane Haskell: stamp my… if I just go, I can't believe… again, nobody ever invites me, people… I'm… of course, because they hate me, because I suck, no, no, no. If you really just explode with, with this,

David Deane Haskell: Kind of seems like an overreaction.

David Deane Haskell: I have found that goes to, like, root traumas of abandonment, rejection, the kinds of things that I couldn't contend with when I was 9, 10, 11 years old, and my peers were rejecting me, and I was just, you know, just really lost and broken. And so, when that happens.

David Deane Haskell: I have these techniques and, very simple techniques, and I just connect…

David Deane Haskell: With the inner child, and find that, that, you know, the person who was rejected, the kid that was rejected, and start, sort of, bonding with my own self.

David Deane Haskell: And so, I was doing that work for years. I was doing that work from about 2020… late 2021, 2022, 2023, on almost a daily basis, probably? And then, as I say, it started writing itself.

David Deane Haskell: In 2024, so it was already pretty solidified.

David Deane Haskell: But also, I think some… it was also starting to make sense in a linear way. So that's why the book kind of makes a lot of sense, because it goes from…

David Deane Haskell: that 9-year-old, all the way through, like, all these different, things that had happened to me, and how I was addressing them in real time. So I think it's just sort of a chronicle of the work, but it wasn't… it wasn't the really messy beginning stuff, it's more like the ongoing stuff.

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: How do you sort of, obviously, you've almost used yourself as a case study in terms of dealing with that, you know, looking into the inner child, dealing with the trauma, dealing with what you went through when you were younger, but how did you learn the, sort of, the science, for want of a better word, behind all of that, so that you could then…

Ian: Apply it to yourself, if that makes sense.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah, I really… I really didn't. I did it in a very primitive fashion. I was like… it's kind of started… it kind of… well, as I say, that… that… okay, so that 9-year-old boy.

David Deane Haskell: The one… when my father told me that my mother had taken her own life.

David Deane Haskell: It was the next day in school that I remember. I was sitting there in school, and I was feeling floods of shame, and fear, and dread. What are the kids gonna think of me? What's gonna happen to me now? What's wrong with me? What will I do? That moment was so…

David Deane Haskell: traumatizing. That I never forgot it. You know, it was always really clear. So, when I started doing inner child work, it was kind of easy to tap into that one, because it was a memory that just got burned into my soul, you know, a very defining…

David Deane Haskell: part of me. So, some people struggle with the inner child work, they don't really, you know, it seems kind of weird or whatever, and they don't really… they don't…

David Deane Haskell: know what they're looking for, and they think, oh, I'm just supposed to imagine myself as a child, or whatever. But there is a technique to it, which I did learn, and I'm not… I'll send you the name of the person whose technique it is, because it's not my technique, but it's really a simple technique, which is,

David Deane Haskell: you start out, and you… in that triggered situation, where you guys went off to dinner, and you told me, David, we don't want to have dinner with you, you know, you're no fun at all, or whatever, and you guys were so mean to me, and I got triggered. And then, so, in that moment, if I want to try to do the inner child work, what I would do is start to express in the third person

David Deane Haskell: everything that I'm feeling and thinking. So, like, he can't believe that they went to dinner without him. He's so upset. He's, his stomach hurts now. He's just… he wants to punch a wall. He's, you know, he… he always gets rejected like this. He feels like nobody likes him. Right? And you do all that stuff and sort of almost build up the energy.

David Deane Haskell: Like, what are you feeling? And then you switch it to the second person, and you say, who are you?

David Deane Haskell: Right? And then, generally, I get some kind of an image or a memory will sort of form.

David Deane Haskell: For me, and it'll show me… and it's not always a child, either. Sometimes it's adult. Like, there's,

David Deane Haskell: that when I was…

David Deane Haskell: in a hermit, basically, for those 11 years, you know, 100 pounds heavier, and just really… that guy comes out a lot in my inner child work whenever I feel like an imposter.

David Deane Haskell: Whenever I feel like, you know, I shouldn't be… I don't have any business writing, I don't have any business telling people about Inner Child, I shouldn't be doing this at all, you know, that guy comes out, because he's like, you know, we're just a failure, we're just, you know, there's no reason to do this stuff. So, you know.

David Deane Haskell: I mean, depending on the trigger, depending on the situation, and last year, I traveled all year. I went all through Southeast Asia, right?

David Deane Haskell: if you're looking for new triggers and to find more about yourself, go travel. Like, you get… have a run-in with the immigration guys, or, like, you lose your credit card and all this stuff. The child just kept flying up, you know, and I… I love it when that happens. I…

David Deane Haskell: I avoid terms like childish or immature, and I just think the term childlike. When I'm feeling childlike, that's an opportunity for me to really tap into the core of

David Deane Haskell: what made me. And also, you know.

David Deane Haskell: the part that was not me. You know, the stuff that we learn from others when we're kids, or that, you know, don't do this, or you should do that, and these kinds of,

Alcohol Uncensored: We've lost you.

Alcohol Uncensored: We've lost you, David, your sound's gone.

Alcohol Uncensored: Is it union, yeah?

Ian: Acne.

David Deane Haskell: Can you hear me now?

Ian: Yeah.

Ian: Back now. Cut out? Yes.

David Deane Haskell: That's good, because I was talking too much anyway.

Ian: Sorry, go back to where you were, if you can remember roughly where you were. We can edit that and…

David Deane Haskell: Which part did you lose me on?

Ian: About 10 seconds ago.

David Deane Haskell: Oh, just the traveling? Oh, yeah, just…

Ian: Go back to.

David Deane Haskell: So, yeah, I mean, just…

David Deane Haskell: Yeah, I guess, yeah, what I was saying is, like, we learn so much, from our caregivers and other people about how we're supposed to be, and that's what I was trying to drive at. I wasn't really finding the right words for it. But, and when your caregivers are unhealthy, which mine were, and a lot of people's are, and, you know, then we get these

David Deane Haskell: these unhealthy senses of what's right and wrong. And when we do the, you know, when we do the inner work and the spiritual work, then we start to find our own integrity, and that's what happened with me. I started to realize…

David Deane Haskell: what I really believe in and what I really care about, and so that really made me healthier than I ever thought I could be.

Ian: Yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: How did you… it sounds like you, found it really difficult in recovery in the beginning, and obviously you'd kind of worked through all the codependency stuff. What made you start looking at the inner child work? What got you to that point?

David Deane Haskell: the codependency, you mean the inner child stuff related to codependency?

Alcohol Uncensored: led you to that? Because that sounds like that's the part where you started to then heal, if I'm right in saying that.

David Deane Haskell: I think I was… I was starting to heal before that, because I was doing… like, I was doing a lot of work to… to, address the dependency, the alcohol, the drugs, and all that. And I was getting better, but I was… I was getting kind of stunted.

David Deane Haskell: by the codependency that was kind of eating at me. But I was doing a lot of emotional and spiritual work, even at that time.

David Deane Haskell: But just specifically Inner Child, I think I got from, reading the Codependence Anonymous book.

David Deane Haskell: And then I was curious about it, and then I started… I have a really, dear friend who actually wrote the,

David Deane Haskell: The… not the dedication. I dedicated the book to her. Yeah, and she wrote the, the foreword. And, so we did outreach, and she's also a big inner child person. Actually, she introduced… she mentioned it to me first, I think she was doing it before I was doing it. And,

David Deane Haskell: And some other people, too. And a lot of my friends, in Tokyo, too, I was kind of like the original gangster. I was like, what's David doing? I was like, codependency stuff? What's his inner child stuff? And so, other people were kind of trying it out, and, because they saw results in me.

David Deane Haskell: You know, and I mean, I saw results in me, and they saw results in me, and it can be sort of another level of wellness if you…

David Deane Haskell: are able to start peeling the onion that much more. Some people don't want to do it, some people can't. And some people are just, they're just like, okay. They're like, you know, I don't want to do all that. You know, I'm pretty okay. My relationships are not great, but they're not…

David Deane Haskell: terrible either, or whatever, you know, and, you know, not every… it's not for everybody. But if you're struggling, and your relationships keep blowing up, and that's the thing, like, for me, it was like, I would have somebody I'd really care about, and then one thing would lead to another, and I'd have a big blow-up, or a big,

David Deane Haskell: yeah, like, some sort of a passive-aggressive thing. I would put up with stuff for a long time because I thought I didn't have a right to have boundaries, and I had to put up with it because I'm not that great anyway, so I'm lucky that they're my friend. These kinds of skewed thinkings, would lead to relationships blowing up.

David Deane Haskell: And losing people. And when I'm trying to, like, connect, and I'm trying to… especially when you're trying to recover, and you're struggling with drugs and alcohol, it's hard enough to connect anyway. And then when you feel like you're, you know, not even able to…

David Deane Haskell: maintain those kind of connections, it's a killer, and that's why I had to address it.

Ian: I'm listening to you, David, and I'm thinking to myself, I don't know that everybody needs to, sort of.

Ian: Have a sort of, particularly sort of…

Ian: Big backstory to actually benefit from doing this.

David Deane Haskell: Oh, no.

Ian: work that you're talking about.

David Deane Haskell: No.

Ian: hearing you, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, I could probably do with doing a bit of this, because… and I, you know, my, you know, my dad… my dad sadly passed away when I was in my early 20s, and we… Oh, I'm sorry. So I was kind of, you know, relatively young, but I was a lot older, obviously, than you were in terms of being able to deal with that, but…

Ian: Definitely think that…

Ian: And then before that, sort of, in terms of how we were raised, it wasn't… it was great, it was a loving relationship. I mean, my mum and dad were very, sort of, good people, but it wasn't without its quirks, if you know what I mean. And I guess what I'm trying to drive at is I could probably do with, sort of, understanding a bit about

Ian: how I was as a child, how certain events shaped me.

Ian: And how it made me think, and how it now affects me as a 50… coming up 55-year-old guy. Because it definitely does, and it kind of… and, you know, we're all… I think when you stop drinking, you start to strive to be the best person that you possibly can be.

Ian: within your own body, if that makes sense. And yet, we're always kind of hamstrung a little bit by

Ian: events of the past, or our… our inner workings, and I think sometimes it's… it's quite healthy to unpick some of that, or at least understand it. Would you… would you agree it's… it is something for everybody, and you don't necessarily need to have a sort of a… anything particularly, sort of.

Ian: Badding your past to actually be able to benefit from it.

David Deane Haskell: Definitely. I absolutely think that's true, and it can just be…

David Deane Haskell: a refresher. Like, I mean, you don't have to have a miserable life to do this kind of work. I mean, it's… I think it's really just a self-awareness exercise, when you come right down to it. And it's like, and you know, I don't spend my life in the past either. I mean, the point is really to embrace it

David Deane Haskell: integrate it, and then I really like living in the now, so I like riding my bike down to the beach and smelling flowers, and hanging with my friends, and doing all that kind of stuff. It's not a matter of dwelling.

David Deane Haskell: Which some people worry, that say, I don't want to think about the past so much, it's not a good… it's not healthy. For me, I had to resolve a lot of things.

David Deane Haskell: And come to like and love myself, so for me, it was pretty involved.

David Deane Haskell: But at the same time, I think it is self-awareness, and it's, it's a healthy thing.

David Deane Haskell: That we can do in order to sort of, enrich what's going on now. Because the other thing is, when you do get those, like, you know, everybody gets childlike sometimes, right? You have this, like, you know, petulant, whatever, you snap at your significant other, or you have a little, you know, argument with your friends, and you walk away and you say, oh, geez, why'd I do that?

David Deane Haskell: you know, I shouldn't have done that. And then… but then you end up repeating it.

David Deane Haskell: And it's like, well, because it's a stuck pattern, right? Because we repeat these things that we don't… so if you are able to sort of look into it and be like, oh, that's why.

David Deane Haskell: you know, then those things tend to resolve, and for me, then they… I don't end up doing that quite the same way the next time. And so I'm a better person to be around.

Alcohol Uncensored: I think what you said, Dadian, it is… I think it's useful for anybody to do. When I'm doing coaching, we look at limiting beliefs quite a lot, and that's part of…

Alcohol Uncensored: the things that you believe about yourself from when you were younger, and when I did group therapy as well,

Alcohol Uncensored: I found out, and I thought it was really interesting, that often it's your perception of the situation. So, for instance, me, my brother, and my sister all grew up in the same house, but my perception of what was happening was different from

Alcohol Uncensored: what my sister and my brother kind of felt about it. So it's about personality and your feelings, and I think, like David said, you've had to do a lot of work, a lot of deep work, and unpick a lot of stuff, but it doesn't always have to be like that. It could just be, as you say, unpicking little bits about yourself so that you can become the best version of yourself.

David Deane Haskell: Definitely. I definitely agree with that. And, and yeah, it's, I think… I would love… I don't know, I think wellness is something they should teach in schools. Like, honest to God, I think, you know, you know, I mean, you think about that, it's about,

David Deane Haskell: That's how to get along, it's all these kinds of things. Like, if a teacher…

David Deane Haskell: you know, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole too much, but if teachers back when I was a kid had been a little bit more aware, and a little less condemning, a little more… like, I had one teacher, I remember one teacher, he used to say that I was abrasive.

David Deane Haskell: And I was like, I was in junior high school. I was like, what do you mean? Like, thinking back, I'm like, what do we, you know, why didn't… why not, like, you know, say, oh, you know, you seem to be really struggling, let me… let's have a conversation with… let's… let's… whatever, I don't know, but like, you know, and I internalized that, like, David, you're abrasive.

David Deane Haskell: That's another reason why you're not likable. I believed that for a long time, until I realized that that guy was probably…

David Deane Haskell: You know, probably, mirroring or doing some other thing, because he wasn't the nicest guy. You know, so what he…

Alcohol Uncensored: Isn't it? Yeah, this is the thing, like, the teacher… a lot of the teachers actually don't know, a lot of the teachers have not done stuff, and to have that conversation with you about why you feel… why are you acting like this, why do you feel like this, would be such an easier

Alcohol Uncensored: piece of work to do than have to deal with a child then hitting out through the years because they've been told they act or play a certain way.

David Deane Haskell: Definitely.

Ian: Yeah, yeah, there's certain things from my childhood that stick with me, certain comments that, particularly, and I'm not having to go to him, but my dad would say certain things, and he was quite, you know, yeah, he had a temper on him, and he would lash out, and he had his own frustrations and anger, and…

Ian: you know, sort of… and I can remember certain things he said, and then you become that person, don't you? Because it's your father telling you that. It's somebody, and you're young, and you're there to learn, and you're being told certain things that stick with you, and that forms your character.

Ian: And then those… clearly, your experiences, David, of you turn them into something positive and powerful and use them for good, but they can also take it the other way as well, and there's this internal sort of battle going on inside your head, isn't there?

Ian: It's fascinating, this story, and it's kind of going in a direction that I'm really grateful for, because it's making me think about my own sort of,

David Deane Haskell: I'm glad. No, and I agree, and the thing is, it's not intentional. It's hurt people hurt people, that's one thing you hear a lot, right? And generational trauma, you hear that as well. I talk a lot about my grandmother in the book, who I loved very much, but she implanted

David Deane Haskell: A desperate financial insecurity in me.

David Deane Haskell: Because she grew up in the Depression.

David Deane Haskell: And she convinced me that I was gonna go without my meal, and I was gonna, you know, things were gonna fall apart, and this and that, and like, I've had such angst and stress about money, and Kelly talking about limiting beliefs. I mean, God, I'm still working on that stuff, believe me, you know? And so, I mean…

David Deane Haskell: I've worked really hard, I'm not resentful, I don't believe…

David Deane Haskell: that I have hard feelings towards anyone. My dad passed away last year, and I feel like I grieved in a pretty healthy way, considering how complex it was.

David Deane Haskell: But… he still…

David Deane Haskell: did harm, and the same… and I have a daughter, and I did harm to her. She's 22 now, and thankfully, we have a beautiful relationship. That's not always how it goes. But man, you know, she grew up with a drinking dad, you know, a drunk dad,

David Deane Haskell: And I did lots of harm. And, you know, in some ways, more than my dad did. And so, you know, and that's…

David Deane Haskell: I didn't do it on purpose, but I still did harm. Same as my dad, maybe your dad, you know, maybe he was having a bad day, or the stress that he was inappropriately putting onto a kid. I mean, everybody…

David Deane Haskell: does it? Everybody does it, from time to time. Well, you can be a… we're not saints, but at the same time, the awareness helps a lot, because then you can kind of go back and go, oh, whoa, you know, that wasn't really right for me to direct my anger at you.

David Deane Haskell: Because actually, I need to deal with my own anger, you know, and I shouldn't… and to be able to apologize to a kid…

David Deane Haskell: is a big thing, I think, and it's never the kid's fault.

Alcohol Uncensored: Do you know what I'm just sitting here thinking about? The… the damage that alcohol causes, and yet it's so…

Alcohol Uncensored: push that is at every… every angle, because you look at, obviously, yourself, David, me, in recovery, and obviously it got to a stage which was really traumatic. Ian.

Alcohol Uncensored: jumped off the train before it got to that stage, or it maybe wouldn't have got to that stage, but what I mean is, if you look at Ian sitting here thinking, oh god, this is really interesting, I'd kind of maybe like to do a bit of work.

Alcohol Uncensored: nobody sits and thinks things like that when they're drinking, and it's just, like, you just do not have the clear head, the clarity of mind to sit and think, like, okay, how can I be a better person? I think if we didn't have alcohol in the world, there'd be so many better people, because you would have that…

Alcohol Uncensored: clean mind to be able to work on yourself and have these conversations. It's… it really… it's frustrating, isn't it? It is?

Ian: Good point. Yeah, you're right.

Ian: I was just coming onto that, because I was just thinking, well, David, obviously, you know, you're 8 years alcohol-free, as we call it, or sober.

Ian: what's kind of… can you pick up on some of the things that have kind of elevated in your life in those 8 years? Because you did say before we came, we started recording, you said that you found the first years quite tough, and I'd like to get into that, if you don't mind.

Ian: But before we do that, can you just talk about some of the positives that you can clearly see now that have happened because you've done all this deep dive into yourself, but also because you've fundamentally stopped drinking?

David Deane Haskell: My life… In every measurable way, is better.

David Deane Haskell: So, I mean, I can't even list it, because it's everything. It's literally everything.

David Deane Haskell: first and foremost, my relationship with my daughter. She and I, we went to see fireworks a few nights ago. She lives with her mom, but very close by. We see each other about once a week, and she's a 22-year-old woman, right? You would, you know, a lot of people in their 20s don't want to see their parents, ever, so I feel lucky that she actually wants to spend time with me.

David Deane Haskell: That relationship could never have been repaired.

David Deane Haskell: If not for recovery, if not for all the… all… everything that went into that, and starting with quitting drinking. And, I'm not…

David Deane Haskell: I'm not one that advocates that alcohol, you know, that everybody should quit alcohol or whatever, but I had to. There's no doubt. And I don't do anything risky, like, whatever, you know, casually smoke pot or do any other kind of thing that might lead me back.

David Deane Haskell: that way. But then, okay, besides that…

David Deane Haskell: really healthy, loving, deep friendships. I have a bunch of them. And some of this is more codependence-related than alcohol. First, I had to get off the substances, and then I had to learn how to

David Deane Haskell: You know, love myself enough to be lovable to others, and respect myself enough to have boundaries and not put up with

David Deane Haskell: what we shouldn't put up with. But yeah, I have healthy friendships in my life. I know that I can make more if I need to, or want to. You know, I feel like I've got two new friends here today. I'm sure we'll be chatting again. And, right? And it's easy for me, now.

David Deane Haskell: That doesn't mean everybody has to like me, and not everybody likes me, but it's easy for me now to make friends. I couldn't make a friend to save my life for 50 years.

David Deane Haskell: You know, and that was so disheartening, and, you know, and made me angry, you know? I was like, what's… why didn't I get the instruction manual to life? Everybody else has friends, why can't I? You know, so, I mean, that… that in itself. My health.

David Deane Haskell: I'm just, you know, my physical health, my spiritual, mental, emotional health is all much, much better. It's not perfect.

David Deane Haskell: It's a rollercoaster, I still have ups and downs, you know? But man, it's better than it was, and

David Deane Haskell: I have so much hope for the future, too. And, you know, things are going… I mean, and I'm writing books now, I'm doing… I'm furthering my career, I'm living where I want to live. What else? I traveled the world last year, all year.

David Deane Haskell: I went to Indonesia and played drums with a bunch of kids, and then I went to Thailand and played more drums, and, Vietnam, and just… how much more could I say? Like, yeah, there you go.

Alcohol Uncensored: Man.

David Deane Haskell: But it just…

Alcohol Uncensored: No, it…

David Deane Haskell: It didn't come around in one day. It took time, and I did struggle for a long time. So that's… if people are struggling, there's no timeline.

David Deane Haskell: You know, I… I really… Yeah, it took… took a long time.

Alcohol Uncensored: I think if there's one thing that comes for this episode, it is… it'll be hope for people, because when you think of what you've been through, and the amount of work you've had to do in those years, isolating must have been… to come back from that is just nothing short of a miracle. So I think the fact that you've got to where you are just now, it'll encourage people to… to trust the process.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah, absolutely. If I… if I could do it, anybody could. I really do believe that. It's funny, because I meet people now who are struggling.

David Deane Haskell: And they don't believe me.

David Deane Haskell: They're like, no, you were always… you weren't that bad. You couldn't have been that bad. You know, I was like, no, trust me. You know, I introduced them to people who knew me 8, 10 years ago. I was like, you tell them. Tell them what a train wreck I was, because I really was. I was… I… 8 years ago, I had a psychiatrist tell me that I was psychotic.

David Deane Haskell: This is not my opinion, that's a doctor's opinion, right? And that's… okay, there you go, I was literally psychotic and, and near-death in several different ways. Near-death in a suicidal sense, but I also feel like my physical health was pretty close to done.

David Deane Haskell: And, yeah, it was… it was… and not everybody makes it. Sad to say, but not everybody makes it. I'm lucky.

David Deane Haskell: But yeah, it's… I… I always had a little bit of hope.

David Deane Haskell: Even in the dark times. For some reason, I don't know why.

David Deane Haskell: But I did, I always did. And so that's the… when I connect with those inner child, they always had some kind of hope. And that's what I kind of say to them, too. It's like, hey, look, you know?

David Deane Haskell: You did it. Here we are.

David Deane Haskell: You know, you got through all that. You're awesome. You know?

Ian: You said before that it was tough when you first stopped drinking and started to get sober, it was really tough. You found it was years, really, that you actually, you know, things were hard for a while. Do you mind just talking a little bit about that, and just sort of how you compounded that, how you dealt with it in the time?

David Deane Haskell: Every… yeah, every day. A lot of my recovery is a spiritual thing.

David Deane Haskell: So, there was that. I had to come around to an idea. So I really hated…

David Deane Haskell: the idea of God, because why would God take my mom away and screw me like that when I was so little?

David Deane Haskell: Right? And it took me a long time to make some kind of…

David Deane Haskell: peace with these ideas, right? Because, like, you look at the world, and you look at the, you know, suffering children, and you think, whatever, you know, how could there be? So, I had to do a lot of,

David Deane Haskell: Yeah, spiritual and emotional work on that, including, like, addressing my mom's suicide, and what that meant, and

David Deane Haskell: what she must have gone through, all that kind of stuff. So, I was not able to have any kind of a spiritual element

David Deane Haskell: Right off the bat, so even that was a big struggle, because I was just, like, wanted to drink every day, miserable every day. I was having panic attacks. I don't think I've had a… I want to knock on wood somewhere, because I don't want to have one today. I haven't had a panic attack in…

David Deane Haskell: probably 6 or 7 years, but I used to have wicked panic attacks, like, really bad. Like, I would have, you know, fight or flight. I'd have to get out of that situation.

David Deane Haskell: shame attacks, too, which people are less familiar with, but there's also shame attacks, and I had those as well. Which those I can still get… just like we can still get panicky, I can still get shame, but as far as, like, full-on crippling emotional

David Deane Haskell: like, attacks like that. Haven't had that in a long time, but I did. In early… in early, you say I said early sobriety, but you said,

Ian: Yes, that's right, yes.

David Deane Haskell: non-drinking.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah.

David Deane Haskell: So that was going on. You know, one month, 3 months in, and I was trying to go to work, and I was having a panic attack, and I, you know, if I lost my job, I would have been even more screwed. And, it was pretty nightmarish, it really was, for a couple of years.

David Deane Haskell: Really, and then the, you know, addressing nuclear dependence was another, like, couple of years of more…

David Deane Haskell: less visceral, less physical, but more emotionally devastating. So it was kind of a, you know, one-two punch. It was not easy. And I think my situation's a bit extreme, so I don't want people to think, to, oh god, what, I have to wait 5 years, and then maybe I'll be okay? It's, you know, I mean, there was certainly good times

David Deane Haskell: along the way. But I had a lot to recover from, I think.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: I think that there's definitely a message there, though, for our listeners that aren't. Like you say, it's taking you years, because there's a lot happened in your life, but for me, there's a message there to our listeners who are thinking about stopping drinking just now, because they've got things happening in their life that are… that's negatively impacting their life due to alcohol.

Alcohol Uncensored: Get off the bus now. Get off the bus and remove alcohol from your life, and it may not take…

Alcohol Uncensored: as long to recover. It may, but you've got a better chance of… of getting through it if you… if you jump off the bus before it gets really, really bad.

David Deane Haskell: Oh, yeah. I think once you know you have a problem, that's what I think. That's what I advise people if they're asking me. I'm like, do you think you have a problem? Like, somebody in their 20s or whatever?

David Deane Haskell: once you know you have a problem, it's never gonna get better. Like, at least in my experience, it didn't. And, like, I can talk as a person who was in his first rehab in his 20s, and then finally quit at age 48,

David Deane Haskell: you know, I had ups and downs, but it was… it's just like the, it's just like a crashing stock market, right? It kind of goes up and down, but the trajectory…

David Deane Haskell: It was just down. And then at a certain point, it was just completely, like, game over.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yep.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: You spoke there about, obviously your recovery was really hard, and you had a lot of people around you helping you with that. That must have been difficult, kind of asking for that help and being around people when you'd isolated yourself for so long.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah. Oh my god, yeah. Yeah, no, I was… I was really, really,

David Deane Haskell: Oh, what's the word I'm looking for? De-Socialized, maybe? It was weird for me to sit in a room with people.

David Deane Haskell: I felt like I was at a zoo. Like, somebody would, like, blow their nose or, like, comb their hair or something. I'm like, this is weird, because, like, I was so isolated. I really… I was the weird one, because I was just… I think, yeah, desocialized. And I think that's not atypical. 11 years is a long time, but I've heard a lot of stories when you get really low-bottom cases.

David Deane Haskell: Where you're just… you're just out of society.

David Deane Haskell: And, you know, it's really, it's really tragic, sad. But yeah, it was weird. It was like, yeah, but now I hang out. But I'm still, for the record, I'm an introvert.

David Deane Haskell: I don't do well with crowds. I… I love people, I really do, but it takes my energy away, and so, like, even Monday night, I went out with friends, and, like, there was more friends than I expected, and I was just kind of like, oh, okay, I was in the corner, you know, I was like, where's the one that I trust the most? I'll hang out with him.

David Deane Haskell: You know, so, I mean, that's… you don't have to… you just can be yourself, and that's another… more self-acceptance right there, like, I know my limitations, I know, when I have to step away, like, these kinds of things used to make me irritable, and I would kind of lash out, because I didn't know anything about what was going on inside me.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah.

Ian: I'm just going back to what we were talking about when you were saying about how tough it was in the first few years when you… when you did get sober and you stopped drinking. It's kind of… I was 50… oh, sorry, I was 49 when I stopped drinking 6 years ago, so… Yep. 55 this month. And,

Ian: I think that it comes back to this, again, it's the inner child thing. There's so many things you've bottled up, and sort of masked, and just covered, and tried to forget for so long.

Ian: inevitably, when you then do stop in later life, if you know what I mean, for me, it was when I was 49, I suppose it's kind of…

Ian: It stands to reason, doesn't it, that suddenly when you stop

Ian: sort of masking everything, and you actually let things breathe and come out. There's going to be a lot that's going to come out, and it's going to take a lot to deal with, and it will take years, because it took years to get to that point that you were, so it's kind of inevitable, I guess, to a degree, but you don't anticipate that, really, do you?

Ian: You've got to be patient, and it's a bit of a rollercoaster, isn't it, David?

David Deane Haskell: Absolutely, it is. And I still have inner child facets come out, even now, that, like, really shocked me. There's a couple…

David Deane Haskell: I ended up back in Japan under fairly strange circumstances, and I felt very safe here. Like, I lived here for a long time, and I was finally able to sort of be off the road and feeling safe, and suddenly, these two…

David Deane Haskell: these are actual events that happened to me, two runaways. I ran away from home at age, like, 10?

David Deane Haskell: And then again, like, age, like, 13. And, it was really… I mean, like, I was… there was… I was taking the train, like, going to my grandparents' house, trying to get to my grandparents' house by train through Boston, Massachusetts. And, like, people were like, what are you doing, little boy? Like, you… you're supposed to be on this train? I'm like, oh yeah, no, I'm cool. You know, and actually.

David Deane Haskell: I forgot all about it. And the thing is, because, like, bigger things happened when I was a kid, so, like, I forgot about that. And, like, but that little 10-year-old, he felt in danger.

David Deane Haskell: He knew, like, you know, riding around on a Boston subway train, it's getting dark, you know, and actually I did, I got lost.

David Deane Haskell: And, and that inner child only came out, like, a month ago.

Ian: Yeah.

David Deane Haskell: due to the circumstances and realizing, like, that I had been feeling insecure, and when I was traveling around Southeast Asia, like, what if I get lost? What if I die? What if I get killed? You know, these kinds of things. That happened, and it just got sort of swept up, you know, and that inner child, like, waited patiently.

David Deane Haskell: Because it was, like, not high on the priority list, which is sad to say, but I mean, yeah, I mean, unpacking this stuff takes a lifetime, maybe.

David Deane Haskell: I, you know, I assume it will, but, it's kinda…

David Deane Haskell: It's a lot easier now, and it's not an everyday thing, it's as circumstances… you know, it's funny, when a funny, strange new circumstance comes up.

David Deane Haskell: That's when… that's when something'll come out for me.

Ian: Yes.

David Deane Haskell: Yeah.

Ian: Kelly, I've loved this chat today, this morning. I didn't anticipate this. Thank you so much, David. It's been so enlightening and thought-provoking, and I hope we've done you justice, if you know what I mean, because

Ian: your story and where you've come from and where you are now. From this side of the water, sometimes sort of distance helps a story, if you know what I mean, and I think us being in a very different sort of part of the world, I think it's almost helped amplify your story, if you know what I mean, so thank you very much for,

Ian: For reaching out and speaking to us today.

Alcohol Uncensored: And I downloaded your book on Kindle this morning, so I'm absolutely… I mean, I downloaded it and read the kind of first part, but I'm really looking forward to getting into it now. You've gave me a lot of food for thought.

David Deane Haskell: I hope you, I hope you enjoy it.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, you're good.

David Deane Haskell: Oh, well, you can… you can, just go to the website, daviddeanhaskell.com.

David Deane Haskell: And, that's where you can get all my books. But I'm also… I'm in the process of… this is my cool podcasting mic here, and I'm in the process of doing the, audiobook.

David Deane Haskell: with my own voice. That'll be out pretty soon, like, within a month or so, and you should be able to get that attached to the,

David Deane Haskell: To the e-book, for very cheap, so that'll be… you'll get to hear my awesome voice doing it, so…

Alcohol Uncensored: I'll probably, by the time it's released, I probably won't have finished the book, because it takes me forever to read books. I'm already an audiobook person, so I'll probably…

David Deane Haskell: Okay.

Alcohol Uncensored: A bit of it, and then jump onto the audio, so…

David Deane Haskell: Okay, well, I'll send you a message about that, yeah.

Alcohol Uncensored: Excellent, thank you.

Ian: Yeah, I've really enjoyed today, David. Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to reach out to us and talking so openly about your story as well. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

David Deane Haskell: Thank you, thank you, thank you, you guys are great.

Alcohol Uncensored: It's been really great.

Ian: We always wrap our, our podcasts, David, by, doing a bit of self-provo, don't we, Kelly? So, how… if people have been, sort of, have really enjoyed the openness and honesty of today's chat, there's loads of this goes on within the Alcohol Uncensored community, isn't there, Kelly?

Ian: I just tell the people who are listening, maybe, for the first time, a bit about us, and a bit about how they can get in touch with us.

Alcohol Uncensored: Yeah, I think, well, today's conversation is kind of a little insight in what goes on in the community in terms of it doesn't matter your drinking story, it doesn't matter how much you drink, how often you drink, it's about how it makes you feel. And within our community, there's people from all walks of life, from all points of the scale, on their, kind of their drinking habits, and

Alcohol Uncensored: Within there, it's just encouragement and connection.

Alcohol Uncensored: David talks about being isolated for all those years, and then coming out and sitting in a room full of people, and that's when you start to grow and learn about yourself, and make friends, make proper friends.

Alcohol Uncensored: So if you'd like to give it a go, we've got Zooms every single day of the week at different times. We've got a mobile app with a forum in there where you can chat to people, and I'm so keen to get people to try it, just to give it a go and see what it's like, because I know a lot of people are apprehensive.

Alcohol Uncensored: So if you want to try it, and you can pop in there for 2 weeks, free of charge, no obligation to join us, just send me a message, and I'll set you up with access so that you can jump on a Zoom and chat to people, or have a little nosy about the forum and see, kind of, the support and the friendships that go on in there.

Alcohol Uncensored: And if you want to get in touch, it's team at Alcohol Uncensored.co.uk.

Ian: And if you do want to join, it's £20 a month, and you can cancel when you want, so it's… it's small beer, as they say. That'll be a phrase lost on you, David. It means it's very little.

Ian: And the irony is, we're referring to… we're referring to BF, but there you go, yeah, yeah.

Ian: Okay.

Ian: David, enjoy the rest of your day in Japan. Great to meet you, and hopefully we'll… our paths will cross again soon with a bit of luck.

David Deane Haskell: Yes, thank you, let's do it again. Thank you so much.

Alcohol Uncensored: Thanks, everyone.

Ian: Good day, everybody. Take care.