Simon Brown (00:02.072)
Hello and a warm welcome to this episode of the Curious Advantage podcast. My name is Simon Brown and today I am here with Garrick Jones, my co-author. No pool today, unfortunately, but we're thrilled to be joined by Larry Robertson. Larry is an innovation advisor and he works, writes and guides at the nexus of creativity, entrepreneurship, leadership and great questions, which we like talking about a lot on here.

Garrick Jones (00:12.071)
Blue.

Simon Brown (00:30.99)
He's an award-winning author of four books. We've got A Deliberate Pause, The Language of Man, Rebel Leadership, and his latest book is Great Questions, The Art of the Ask and Getting More of What You Really Want. He's founder and president of Lighthouse Consulting. He spent more than three decades guiding organizations and their leaders through uncertainty, change, and growth to achieve lasting success. He's a popular columnist and a regular speaker.

and has the unique ability to bring audiences into the story and more importantly help them craft and realize their own stories. Among his honours in 2021, he was named a US Fulbright Scholar, a distinction rarely awarded to non-academic professionals. So a warm welcome, Larry, to the Curious Advantage podcast.

Larry Robertson (01:20.263)
Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.

Simon Brown (01:22.731)
Great to have you with us. Let's start where we always do. Let's start with curiosity. How do you personally define curiosity and how has that played a role in your life and over the work that you've done?

Larry Robertson (01:27.839)
Mm-hmm.

Larry Robertson (01:37.603)
You know, it for me it's one of those, excuse me, things that I call simple but not automatically easy. and and to me, curiosity is a pursuit of the unknown, but also of the possible. And I feel like that is central to who we are as as human beings. It's also something that I have found over all my work and not just my recent work.

Is spurred and directed and shaped by the questions we ask. So when we pursue it in that way, when we're we're pursuing curiosity in an open way, and we're also doing it by allowing ourselves to continue to act ask questions, not just stop at an answer, that's when we create real value that that lasts and has impact. So for me, that's how all that you know simple definition of curiosity being the pursuit of the unknown but the possible.

goes from, hey, that's pretty simple to okay, great, but it it's not automatically easy either.

Garrick Jones (02:41.991)
You're preaching to the choir, of course, on this occasion, because as you know, we're all about questionings and to question is the answer. That's what we say in Curious Advantage. But it'd be great to unpack more of that with you from your experience. you know, across the work you you've done on creativity and entrepreneurship and leadership and innovation. what is it about questioning that makes it such a powerful human capability to you, Larry? Yeah, so it's

Larry Robertson (03:09.218)
So it's really interesting since you referenced those areas that that my work touches and and that I've I've dug deeply into, Garrick. I'll start with that, which was, you know, I've written three previous books before this newest one, and and they focused one each on entrepreneurship, on creativity and and leadership, but specifically leadership in uncertainty.

And what was interesting in the research and the writing for both those and in the sharing with others was how vital good questioning was to successful entrepreneurship, to creativity that actually materializes as something valuable and to leadership ongoing, especially in uncertainty. So I had seen the power of questions there in each of those three, but also wondered, you know, I wondered what what more is there beyond that? And also,

Am I only seeing questions in a limited way by looking through individual lenses like entrepreneurship or like leadership? So, what I've discovered over time, and especially in the research for this new book, that really pulls questions out as important, is that we're in fact born questioning. This is one of the most critical things to realize that even before we acquire language, we are asking.

We're asking in a variety of ways, and we're asking for things that begin with survival, like where can I get what I need to eat? Where where do I feel comfortable sleeping? Who can I count on? But then expanding beyond that to, hey, what's that? You know, can I be curious about that? So this idea that we're not only born questioning, but as much of the research s suggests, we'd be dead without it puts a whole new twist on why questions are important.

And I wanna I wanna move off that that emphasis of, you know, questions are there as part of our survival. That is true and that's important, but there's another element to it and and that I think makes questions supremely powerful. Questions are how we take a future orientation. And more importantly, it's how we start to consider futures yet to be and futures that can be made from things that don't even exist yet.

Larry Robertson (05:26.618)
So when you look at those two in balance, when you realize that, as I like to say, we'd be dead without our questions, but also we build our futures from them, I think that's really what describes why questions are so powerful and so pivotal, no matter where they're applied. So it can be an entrepreneurship or creativity or leadership, but really it's everywhere.

Simon Brown (05:47.596)
So I'd love in a minute to dive into that sort of questions, helping us shape the future. But maybe first, so your latest book around the great question. in there, I think you sort of identify that people have misunderstanding around sort of questions and sort of where they come from. So tell us, what are people not getting around how they use questions or not seeing about the power of questions?

Larry Robertson (06:12.08)
Yeah, so so this is I I think this is a expansive and an interesting way to answer that. The I interviewed over 140 people for this book. That was just part of the research, but the interviews were critical. Almost without exception, they were people I didn't know. So they were and in fact they were really cold calls in in virtually every case. the very first thing that I would ask any of them, so so I I tell you that that setup because they didn't know me, they didn't know

what exactly I was going for in the research, and they certainly didn't know what I was going to ask them yet. The very first question I asked all of them is, What is a question? And it elicited the most interesting responses. And I'll I'll answer your question two ways. The first thing that really stood out is that to the person, so this is it it really was over 140 people, but I count the 140 official interviews, they all went big. So they didn't say

a question is what we use to get an answer. A question is what we use to solve a problem and then we have that solution. They looked at this greater power in a question. So we're surrounded by what I call functional questions every day. They could have gone there, like, you know, what am I gonna have for lunch? What's the best route home? What what do I have to do on my to-do list today? Those are more functional questions. Very important, but they're not the only kind of questions, and yet every single person without them knowing anything about me or me.

Knowing much about them went big. And then when they answered what a question is, these patterns emerged that showed a richer texture to questions. And there were really four things that stood out. So a question is, number one, an invitation, but importantly, an invitation to understanding. So you're inviting someone in in theory with a question.

And you're inviting not only their understanding but yours. The second thing that a question is, this is again this the pattern across the answers, is a frame. Because whatever you ask is setting up directionally where you're going to go next. Now that may change with the question that follows it, but the point is every question is shaping that frame for how you're going to search, discover, ideate, plan, do, even succeed ultimately. So that's the second thing.

Larry Robertson (08:36.028)
The third pattern across the the answer to the question, what is a question, is that it's a behavior. And this really goes back to that fundamental start for all of us that we're born asking. So it is a behavior that's there in all of us. It's just that some tap it and practice it more than others. So it might look as though there's a distinction that only person X knows how to hands ask or answer great questions.

When really it's all of us who have that. And that leads to that fourth pattern, which is it's core to what makes us human. including helping us to understand why any of it matters. And it and it turns out that's a very important function of questions and it it's an insight to questions that keep going.

Garrick Jones (09:25.785)
I'm you really make me think especially about four different types and what is a question. you know an invitation to understanding a frame, a behavior, and and it makes what makes us human. I mean I'd really like to unpack that. And also, one thing that really resonated with me with with me one thing that really resonated with me is when you said that it's the difference between what we think we want and what we really want.

How can these questions help us uncover the difference between what we think we want and what we really want?

Larry Robertson (10:02.108)
So I'll answer that with with a couple of things. I I think one thing that's that's really critical to point out in our conversation early on, because there's this tendency in all of our brains to think about this differently, is that the power in the questions isn't in the specific words. It's not even in the sentence with the right punctuation at the end. It's in the asking itself. It's in the asking as a way of doing things.

And so what that really leads you to understand are the five what I call elements. So so in the book, part of the subtitle is The Art of the Ask. And the rest of it is the art of the ask and and getting more of what you really want, which is the part you pointed to. But let me go back to this art of the ask.

There are these five elements around questions that drive any questions, no matter what words you come up with, no matter even if you're asking without a question mark at the end, you're just asking by saying something like, Tell me more about that. That's that's a form of asking too. These five elements, and and we can talk about them, but I'll I'll give them to you simply. They are core, meaning recognizing that questions are core to us, but not just recognizing, investing in what that means.

What it does for our brain, what it does for our health, in addition to what it does outwardly. The second element is context. Questions don't matter if you don't understand the context in which you're asking them, even if it's just the context in your own head, but it certainly goes far beyond that. The third element is concession, which is really wrapped around this idea not only of listening, but of the intellectual humility to truly listen.

The fourth element is connection, meaning what are our questions connecting us to? What are they trying to connect together? How do questions connect to one another? And the fifth and final one is continuation. And so what's the reason I lay those out for you is that as you think about those core, context, concession, connection, and continuation, what you realize is that they have elements that are both individual and collective. So core, you could, I'm gonna make an extreme.

Larry Robertson (12:17.468)
Kind of statement or argument here. Core is really what's core to us individually, and yet we all share it, right? We're all born asking. Context suddenly becomes about things bigger than you and how it connects to others. Concession really starts as a very individual thing because I have to concede that I may not know in order to truly listen. But then we're right back to connection and it's about a collaborative thing. So what I'm trying to point out is that these five elements.

Go back and forth between what's individual and what's collaborative. And the five elements together are what make your asking so great. So here's the answer to your question, Garri, that we all have a sense of what we really want. And we use questions to try to get after that and and to get hold of it. But if we're using these elements to ask great questions, really what we realize is that it takes more than us.

To get what we really want, which is to get the things we want, but to get them in a lasting and impactful way. And so that's where that distinction comes out. That really is to say it's not just what you want now in the moment, it's what you want that's lasting and ongoing. And it's also to say it's not just you that helps you get there, it's a collective exercise.

Simon Brown (13:37.326)
So I'm curious if we understand the coil context, concession, connection, and continuation. So we sort of comprehend those five elements. How do we use that to craft those great questions? So what does that understanding of those five elements give us in order to get more of what we really want and ask those great questions? Can you bring it to life with an example maybe or understand better how those?

Larry Robertson (13:43.772)
Okay.

Simon Brown (14:06.519)
five pieces really work together.

Larry Robertson (14:09.042)
Sure, sure. So let's let's take connection because that's really where that's where everybody wants to end up. Like how how do I connect where I am now to what I want or want to be in the future, right? How do I connect one small idea to other small ideas to really create something great? And what you realize is that there are all sorts of connections out there in the world. How you get there is to be aware of the fact that connection drives your questions, it drives good or poor answers.

It drives temporary or lasting value. It drives everything. So where do I begin? And and one place that I suggest that readers begin is by recognizing some of the key connection relationships. So for example, the person-to-person relationship. Anytime I ask a question or seek an answer, I am it my default is to only think of it through my perspective. But they're always at least

Two perspectives in any exchange between two people or more, right? Mine and yours are going to be different even if they're overlapping. So understanding that person-to-person connection, why we're both there, where we both come from, why we're in it, shapes your questions in a direction that actually raises the odds that you'll recognize value, period, but also probably better value because it's coming from more than one perspective.

Another type of that's so that's one connection relationship person to person. Another form of relationship is story to story. So I when I am individually or as a member of a team, part of a company, trying to shape my individual story, two things are happening at the same time. The first one is any story right now is connected to stories that came before.

And if you're using story and questioning wisely, you're trying to connect them or create a new story in the future. So there's this what I call a narrative arc that is linking our stories to stories together in a different kind of connection. But the second thing is happening is that's happening for me and it's happening for both of you at the same time too. So there are these very three-dimensional connections of story. And this isn't about getting everyone right.

Larry Robertson (16:24.828)
This isn't about fully understanding every form of connection. It's about awareness. Because when you're simply aware of this person-to-person connection, the story-to-story connection, even the question-to-question connection, you're going to raise the effectiveness of your questions. So that's what I would give you as a particular tool, because part of what you asked me, Simon, was you know, how do you how do you make this happen, right?

And the second part you asked was you to give you an example. Let me give you a more specific example. I talked to several teams of researchers who research in particular startups. And what they found was that our orientation is to look at a successful startup and say, it's all about the idea, right? Or it was all about the one individual who birthed that one idea. And as

I know the two of you know, that's never the case. Any kind of breakthrough idea is always an accumulation of ideas. It's more than that though. It's about continuing to test and pursue that idea, even when it's proven successful. So there you're not only connecting the story of an idea in one moment, like at its inception or when it was first implemented and and created something powerful, but

what it is ongoing, right? So that's the story to story to story connection. When you think about individual ideas, you pretty quickly can unearth that they come from multiple sources. Even if there's one person who generates the initial idea and then all these other people add to it or tweak it or whatever, there's a person-to-person connection that's happening there that also impacts the idea to idea connection. So what these researchers found was that the founders who realized that, the founders who realized

you you shouldn't be tied to just one idea. The founders who realized that they alone individually could not manifest the idea into something that had lasting value, those were the ones that that continued forward. And more when they instilled that in their cultures and they empowered everybody on a team to think and interact in the same way, in fact expected them to do that, they again raised their likelihood of success and longevity

Larry Robertson (18:41.487)
exponentially over the others.

Garrick Jones (18:46.337)
I I'm thinking about how this is about connecting with other people and connecting with other humans. but I also think about AI, as everybody else is at the moment. what much of today's conversation is around technology no, I'm sorry, I'm gonna restart that. You've spoken about sitting in the space between makes us human and the rise of AI.

And you've spoken about the questioning, that is really about connection and making stories together. How does that play into the world of I AI that we now inhabit and us moving into a world where we have agentic colleagues who are working alongside us on our behalf in some ways? w what's your view on that, Larry?

Larry Robertson (19:39.347)
So I'll tell you an interesting story behind that. When I first began this research and when I first ventured into the you know like the early drafts of this book, I I thought AI was gonna take up a lot of word count in the book. And part of it was what we're all feeling, this external pressure to

Think about AI, to try to understand what it means, to try to get to an immediate answer of what it means. And so I went out and talked to a lot of the developers, both in for-profit organizations as well as at universities and research labs. So they're on the front lines of doing this. And what's interesting about the way you asked the question, Garrick, is you you you talked about these AI agents as as

Being colleagues. And in order for that to happen, we as humans have to retain certain things. So we're doing a lot of offloading to AI or suggesting we could do a lot of offloading to AI. It might be a particular task, it might be a particular line of thinking, whatever it is. But as we do that, we have to protect other things about ourselves if we want to have that collaborative relationship with the AI. But there are things we don't typically think about, like

The retention of our agency, or the ability to sort contexts that are yet to be, to think into the future. The power of collaboration is uniquely human in that sense. So we have to work with the AI and teach the AI to be collaborative with us. And then there's another enormous element of how we advance into the future, and that's

Intellectual humility and intellectual humility, just as a quick side note, is is not just the ability to acknowledge that you might not know. It by its formal definition, it's also the willingness to understand that you might be wrong and that you might have to change. So it doesn't always happen, but it's a level of openness that is distinctly human. AI is programmed to get to a point.

Larry Robertson (21:59.077)
intellectual humility is about opening up to to multiple points. So I think as we think about AI and human interaction, we should think about what is the human side. What does it mean to be human in that relationship, in that collaborate collaboration with the artificial intelligence, that we need to not only retain, but be good at. So the d the distinction there is we not only need to retain our agency, we need to practice that.

We not only need to retain our ability to look into the future, we need to practice that too, which means not just coming up with great ideas, but coming up with ideas, trying them and screwing them up in a very human way in order to advance to the next level of understanding. So we can not only inform ourselves and each other, but the technology itself. So I think those are things that we're we're de-emphasizing right now. We'll come around to it, but we're de-emphasizing it right now.

And this is a time a and we're talking about a technology that moves at a speed that we probably should pick up the pace on what what is important about being human and how does that fit into that collaboration.

Simon Brown (23:07.885)
Lots of questions that that invokes. So sort of, yeah, what does it mean to be human? How do we predict the future, the role of humans and agents? Maybe starting on the one we referenced earlier of how through your work on exploring questions, can that help us to...

question where things are going in the context of AI. So this is an area I'm spending a lot of time at the moment trying to predict is perhaps a strong word, but trying to figure out where things are going, what impact AI will have, lots and lots of questions that that invokes. How has your work on, I guess, refining those questions, how does that help us to see into the future of what may be coming? Or how can we ask?

better questions that will help us to get some insight into where we're going.

Larry Robertson (24:04.29)
You know, it's interesting we talked about the what I call the five elements of of the art of the ask, which l is is is the idea of leading yourself into the practice. That's the art, right? Because art art takes ongoing practice. So to lead yourself into the practice so that your questioning gets better. And those five elements, core, context, concession, connection, continuation, it turns out that each of those

are great points for for checking in with your questioning, right? So I can talk about what's core to me, but I can also point it towards a particular project that I'm working on, a particular business I'm trying to help, whatever help means, to help them to recover, to grow, to anticipate the future and say, what is it that's core to us as a business that we're trying to achieve? And this is pointing back to what Garek was asking about.

How does AI help us to do that? It's rare, which seems weird. It's rare that we talk about how AI can help us to do the larger things and not just the smaller assignments that we're giving it. So we can ask ourselves, what is it that's core to what we're trying to accomplish and how does AI fit into that? We can look at context that same way. We can concede not only what we know and what we don't know, or what we can do and what we can't do.

But the same thing about the AI. What can it do or can't it do? You know, speed and efficiency is great, but what what might be the shortcomings of it? And you can work yourself all the way through those elements thinking about, well, what questions would you ask around that? And suddenly I think you're shining a bright light on your path ahead. Maybe not a totally clear one, but you're seeing it in a new way. And it's interesting because you're really, in some ways, pointing yourself back.

to what your assumptions were that led you to this place. And then acknowledging we live in a very uncertain world. So we should be checking those regularly. That should be part of our exercise. And when you check those things, questions are naturally a part of it.

Simon Brown (26:12.981)
And you touched on maybe the biggest question of what does it mean to be human? What's the role of humans in the future? That's a big hard question to ask. To answer that, do you unpack it into smaller questions? how do you come up with starting to answer a question of what it means to be human and what that will mean in the future?

Larry Robertson (26:39.484)
You don't stop asking. That is the simple answer to that because what I feel it it might mean to be human not only may differ from what the two of you feel, but I I may have a different opinion on that ten years down the road. And so part of this journey is continuing to ask that question of what does it mean to be human? And I think I think what makes it a valuable question is when you tie it back.

To who you are right now, what you're doing, what what you hope to do in the future, like making it real rather than just this abstract, what does it collectively mean, you know, an answer for everybody to to what does it mean to be human? It's it's a pursuit. And what what's fascinating is there's research growing in the last 10 years in this area called mattering. So instead of just talking about what does it mean to be human, a large philosophical question.

Or something a little closer and saying, well, what's the meaning in that particular thing, which tends to make us narrow? Like, what's the meaning in our story right now in this moment? So the the idea of the research behind mattering is to say mattering is something bigger than all of that. Mattering is the thing that occurs over our narrative arc, that term I used earlier, how how our stories interconnect with one another, past, present, future, and and with other individuals. And all of that really

I think brings texture to this mosaic of that question of what does it mean to be human? So, you know, d this the simplification is where I started. You keep asking. You leave the questions open. It's now and this is really important. This is not about not getting to answers and excusing yourself from having to get to answers. We need answers to function. But we can hold two thoughts in our head at the same time. One is I need to get to an answer to function right now. And the other is I can ask that question again.

And those two things allow us to continue to tap this very powerful capacity.

Garrick Jones (28:44.611)
And a fascinating y you one of the primal things when I think about being human is that we experience joy, but we also experience anxiety and sadness. And in that continuum, you know, there's so all of humanity sometimes. And you you argue in your book that that questions aren't simple simply useful tools. There is survival capability, which you've been talking about so far. But

Larry Robertson (29:02.812)
Yes.

Garrick Jones (29:15.141)
We we live in an incredibly uncertain world and un uncertainty has become the new norm. You know, the sort of neoclassical world has fallen apart really f quickly, and we now live in a world where it's all all about being in touch and connected and processing information on a continual basis just to survive. what can you tell us a little bit more about why questioning and how we can use questioning

to deal with things like our anxiety or how we deal with the sad the sadness or the joy in that relates to living in an uncertain world. how how do we question in a way that enables us to survive? So I

Larry Robertson (29:58.663)
So I again I'm kind of there there are two thoughts you've you've generated in my head here and let me start with this one. The the first is really to embrace this reality that this is a very uncertain world. Now I'll back up and say it always has been, but the the rate of change the

extremes of change and the continuing of that is what I call the new abnormal. So rather than we we we have tended at least prior to you know the year 2000 call it the last 50 years of the last century to think that we got to move between one status quo and another with a lot of time in between. And the trick was you know to first recognize that there was change, a threat, an opportunity, whatever it is, but ultimately it was to settle into a new status quo.

And all of that has been compacted. And I think of it as the new abnormal, that you don't really return to some kind of status quo. You're you're in constant motion. So that brings us forward to this question of how how do human beings deal with uncertainty, including those extremes of joy and sadness and and so on and so forth. And the the the funny thing is is that we've convinced ourselves that the way to deal with uncertainty is to eliminate it.

And the fact of the matter is, is not only is that not possible, I mean certain forms of it, of course, but it uncertainty in total, and and let me stretch into another term, ambiguity, that isn't gonna go away. AI is not gonna fix that, the next innovation's not gonna fix that, none of our individual answers are gonna fix that. But here's the really positive point on that, and the data is not only clear, it's abundant. That we need uncertainty. That's how our human brains are built.

It and it results in everything from novelty to how to work our way out of tragedy. So there's a range there, and and the the longer we go on saying, I just need to get rid of uncertainty or ambiguity, the harder we make it on ourselves to strike those balances that that you're talking about at those extremes. They're part of the process. And the uncertainty is part of what helps us get there because our brains are looking for that. That's what makes them hungry.

Larry Robertson (32:23.942)
That's brains want to grow. And that's what allows a brain to go bar none. That is the most important thing to a brain. And one of the simplest things we can do to trigger that, which we know, we all know the power of it. We all know probably that we should do it, and then we choose not to do it is reflection. So to reflect on a a particular experience, here's a really important distinction. to reflect both backwards and forwards.

Simon Brown (32:42.765)
Hmm.

Larry Robertson (32:53.818)
So when they do research on teams and how they come through a project or how they come through a crisis, how they come through a big win, they find the following things steadily. One is they don't reflect by choice, which I find just fascinating when you know the power of it. But when asked to reflect, they immediately see the power in reflection. The limitation is that when asked to reflect, they tend to look backwards and try to explain what happened and to

To conclude the story at this point. This is this is what happened. This is what I learned. This is what the outcomes were. And they forget to reflect forward. In doing that, they are squandering the lessons of just what they just went through. They're squandering the beginning stages of ideation that are that are the you know the flower bed of what they just went through. And they're choosing instead to stumble along the way in the future.

And whatever else comes up next, rather than reflecting forward and saying, What can I pull from what I've done into the future? Not just a repeat of of, you know, a different version of this thing that I've just done, but anything that I do. What can I pull from that by reflecting forward? So, you know, it's a very long answer to your question, but this lack of embrace of uncertainty in general, that it it's not going away. This greater and more important embrace that we need this uncertainty, that it actually makes us better.

Garrick Jones (34:04.739)
Forward.

Garrick Jones (34:16.175)
Yeah.

Larry Robertson (34:17.85)
And then this third and final thing that we really have control over this. Reflection's not hard. Sometimes what you come back with, you're not sure what to do with, and that may seem hard, but it's easy to reflect both backwards and forwards. And when it's your habit, you tend to get very good at fine-tuning it to actually sharpen it into a tool.

Garrick Jones (34:35.975)
It's really interesting to me and you're talking about the need to embrace uncertainty and how our brains need, you know, that difference, they sort of the difference that makes a difference, the thing that drives us forward and looks at the the differences and the gaps that that keep us engaged and and questioning, as you say. How does that relate to certainty and you know no, let me ask the a different question.

How does that relate to commitment, for example, when I need to commit to something to move forward and be certain about that commitment in order to achieve a goal or to have an outcome or get a product to market, for example?

Larry Robertson (35:16.498)
Sure. So I mean it's it's interesting the words that that you just chose because the answer is really it it it differs along a a a spectrum of time, right? So let l let me just borrow the words l the borrow the word goal and add the word objective to it. Okay. And I'm gonna just say that in my definition and and and objective

might be something grander, a little closer to a mission, a little closer to something that that takes takes a long time or takes an accumulation of of successfully meeting goals to get to. Again, I mean we could define the words differently, but what we're really talking about is is is a short term and a long term. And so I think that there's an importance in in distinguishing that, that for things that are short term.

you you have to you have to have a plan that's more precise. You have to employ very specific tactics. You you have to engage, right? You're trying to accomplish it. You're trying to take that hill if if you like. But but most often, or at least this is the way it should be, that that goal is adding up with other goals to a much larger objective or a much larger

mission or a much larger vision of what you're trying to do. And this is really just another version of that. We've got to have that commitment to get anything done. Here's where we need to make a tweak. If our commitment is to say we have to go through this process to get that exact answer that we forecast we will get, we're kind of screwed.

Because it you you've all of a sudden closed yourself off to the openness that there might be more than one answer. Even if it's a variation on the theme of what you're after in your goal, or something brand new, you've closed yourself off to it. And and yet if you keep your longer-term objectives in mind and you keep pulling them back to test your goals and even how you're pursuing them, you raise the odds that you're traveling in this very committed way in the short term.

Larry Robertson (37:25.062)
But that you're gonna have impact in the long term. That's that's at least how I think about it. And this this very uncertain environment we're in only really says two new things about that. One is it's gonna happen more often, that you're gonna have this distinction between the goal you're pursuing right now and what number of goals will will have to add up to that larger objective. And the second thing it says, and this is the most important, is nobody can do this alone.

So it we really have to figure out how to work in a collaborative way, not just to execute, but to solve.

Simon Brown (37:59.79)
One of the other themes that runs through your work and you touched on it in the context of concession earlier is around intellectual humility and I guess it comes down to that if we're if we're trying to make an uncertain world certain we're probably wrong in trying to do that. how do we deal with that or create maybe even that intellectual humility that that sort of willingness to learn to adapt?

to challenge our own beliefs, our own thinking, to admit when we got it wrong, which given how hard to answer some of the questions are, we inevitably will get things wrong more regularly. Why is that becoming such an important capability today?

Larry Robertson (38:43.44)
Yeah, so

Larry Robertson (38:48.036)
Intellectual humility is very tightly woven together with with listening. And I think I I I could just say that and and not even answer that part of the question, like why is listening important? Well, if you've ever not listened, you've probably paid the price enough to know at least partially why it's important or important. So the the

Simon Brown (39:04.415)
Yes.

Larry Robertson (39:15.216)
More challenging answer to intellectual humility, and then I'm going to give you a simpler answer, but the more challenging answer is you're trying to deal with these two thoughts in your head. At some level, we all know we don't know everything. But at another level or another thought in our head, we don't like the idea of being embarrassed by admitting that publicly, embarrassed in front of others. And so

The the researchers in intellectual humility, Mark Leary in in particular, who was one of the the founding researchers in this area, neuroscientist at Duke, is to he what he suggests is that you focus internally and focus on being less embarrassed by that idea of outwardly acknowledging that you don't know and more embarrassed by the fact that you're wasting your time with that while you should be pursuing things that you don't know yet.

Like to focus on the learning rather than the, my gosh, I don't know everything and somebody might find out. So that that's the more and it's it's a complicated thing because people are going to handle that differently. Here's a simple thing. One of the best ways to practice intellectual humility is to let a question follow a question. So when I ask a question of one of you, and you give me an answer, and I actually take your answer and build it into

A next level question. Not it doesn't have to be swinging for the fences, just something bigger than the first question I asked you. And then I shut up and listen. I'm practicing intellectual humility. I'm not jumping to say, that reminds me of, or well, really, there's a better answer than, right? Or to make some kind of statement or to conclude. I'm actually moving deeper into the questions and the learning where undoubtedly I'm going to run into something I don't know yet.

And that is a practice in intellectual humility and a very simple one that you can do without anybody even knowing that you're doing it. So I I I like to think of it that way because when you start to think about the complexities of intellectual humility and you dwell on it too much, it it's i it's crowded headspace.

Garrick Jones (41:29.863)
Well here's my follow-up question on intellectual humility is like what can I do or anybody do in a everyday situation that that allows us to ask questions and go deeper that gets me to a place of intellectual cap I think I've just answered the question myself actually

Simon Brown (41:30.125)
You

Simon Brown (41:55.053)
Hahaha.

Larry Robertson (41:55.121)
You you kinda have any way, but I'll give you a phrase to go with it. And and the phrase is tell me more.

Garrick Jones (42:01.549)
brilliant.

Larry Robertson (42:03.002)
Right. So so whenever someone is asked a question, they're trying to give you their best answer. When they're answering the question, when they're when they're ruminating on the question, they're not just exploring old ground. They're trying to take old ground and tie it together into a coherent story. And as they're saying it out loud to you, they're realizing there's more to the story.

But they're doing their best to give you an answer. So you ask one question and they do their their best to give you an answer. When you say, tell me more, you are doing that first answer to what a question is. You are giving them an added invitation to understanding, to understanding what their own thoughts are, to understanding why you would ask and why you're interested. Even your new question is going to give them a new flavor to why you're asking and what your interest is. So

Garrick Jones (42:35.131)
Yeah.

Larry Robertson (42:57.638)
Right there, you've kicked off this beautiful cycle that if you look around the world today, does not happen very often. We are collectively, globally moving more away from questions than we are moving towards them. And I think if you think about that, you can see that there are far more statements or questions asked to make a statement, or worse, questions asked to bait.

Humiliate or or harden a position on extremes and things like that. And I'm not just talking about politics. You can you can talk about it in the the arguments over whether AI is valuable or not and in what way and anything else for that matter, right? But this is this is different, and yet it's absolutely familiar because this is what we're born doing. So you're giving yourself this simple permission to engage. And frankly, this is a little secret.

When you follow a question with a question, a question that really shows you're you're listening, you're practicing intellectual humility without declaring it. And so suddenly this very hard thing of admitting I don't know everything becomes this very powerful thing of, my gosh, he just asked me a a question that shows me he's listening, that gave me respect, that my my response was important enough that he wants to know more. And so I've emboldened that person on the other side.

And I've started to build a relationship. my God, now we're back in the elements, person-to-person connection, story-to-story connection. That might lead to idea-to-idea connection. And it all happened from question-to-question connection. And I didn't think those through in any any sophisticated way. I just was aware that each of those connections are there in every question I asked, and then I leaned into them.

Garrick Jones (44:30.509)
That's genuinely valuable.

Garrick Jones (44:41.895)
So valuable, thank you. Really great.

Simon Brown (44:45.271)
So I'm going to try and sum up the conversation that we've had so far. maybe once I've done that, I'll come back to you for sort of one takeaway for our listeners.

Simon Brown (44:58.017)
We went through your thoughts on what curiosity is, so that it's simple but it's not easy. It's around the pursuit of the unknown and that our lives and work are shaped by the questions that we ask. We need to continue to ask questions but not stop at the answer. Around how your work has covered questions coming out through creativity, entrepreneurship, leadership, particularly leadership in uncertainty and innovation and how that great questioning has been a sort of red thread throughout all of those.

how we're born questioning, that it rules our survival, how we eat sleep, who we trust, we'd be dead without it. And then through your 140 interviews, that there were some themes coming out, encouragement, that people were asking big questions, not the functional questions, but how we had the four elements of questions being around an invitation to understand, a frame, and it sort of sets up the frame for the conversation, behavior, and then being core to what makes us human.

which we came onto as being sort of the ultimate question, makes us think what we really want and how the power of questions can help us to achieve that. You took us through the five elements in the art of the ask. So the core, the context, the concession, the connection, and the continuation. And how from that we just need to continue on to ask great questions. And we dive then into sort of people to people, story to story, question to question, et cetera.

We then moved into AI and how AI can help us to, or in the context of AI, how we need to sort look at our own agency. We need to look at the importance of intellectual humility, recognize we might be wrong and look at those AI human interactions. And we got into there, again, what does it mean to be human? What do we need to retain? What do we need to practice, et cetera.

And then from there we went into, don't stop asking questions, keep pursuing an uncertain world and maybe we need to recognise that we're probably not right to try to change that, we need to settle into a new status quo, that new abnormal that you described, we can't eliminate that uncertainty.

Simon Brown (47:13.181)
But we went into then the power of reflection, reflection being backwards and forwards and what can I pull forward from my experiences and then looked at short-term goals and objectives, long-term mission and vision and finishing then onto intellectual humility and how a useful tip for us is let a question follow a question and tell me more being a very practical way that we can do that.

creates that invitation to engage. So great, great lessons to come away with. What would be your sort of one takeaway from all of that, Larry?

Larry Robertson (47:49.167)
It's like a book worth of lessons, isn't it? Well, you know, the the one takeaway that I I would put out there, because that was that there's a lot in that, right? Is that and and I and I make a very conscious point of this up front in the book and then along the way, is that everybody has this capacity already. And for whatever the reasons are.

Simon Brown (47:51.381)
Absolutely.

Larry Robertson (48:16.39)
That we're not leaning into our power of asking. What we should realize is that doing it is, as I call in the book, kid simple. It's not hard. It is our most valuable and I would say defining capacity as human beings. And so the thought I take away from that, knowing that it's not as hard as you know, all this, all this, these thoughts and insights we've talked about might sound, is why would you squander that?

Why would you take this most valuable tool that's factory issued when you're born and not lean into it in some way, in your own way, individually, if not collectively? And I think if you're a leader, you you suddenly realize you should be leaning in into it collectively, but it's there. And all you need is a little bit of instruction on how to tap it. It's unfortunately something we don't stop and teach people if we do anything. We we kind of teach them away from the larger idea of questionings.

We'll teach them sometimes how to do it in a particular application, but the bigger idea of questioning, we don't do that. And yet it takes very little to break it free. And we all have it inside us.

Simon Brown (49:25.997)
So the question for our listeners to ponder is how are you going to lean into that power of asking, a good one to reflect forward onto. Thank you, Larry, for a great conversation.

Garrick Jones (49:37.319)
Yeah, thank you.

Larry Robertson (49:38.41)
you I it it at the risk of sounding like I'm I'm pitching the title of the book, you all ask great questions. And so it makes the conversation a lot easier. Thank you for having me. There you go.

Garrick Jones (49:45.467)
Yeah.

Simon Brown (49:45.517)
You

Garrick Jones (49:49.393)
Tell me more.

Simon Brown (49:50.765)
I love it. So you've been listening to a Curious Advantage podcast. As always, we are curious to hear from you. If you found something useful or valuable in the conversation today, please do leave us a review. Click on that five star rating on whatever your favourite podcast platform is. It really helps us in getting people to hear about the podcast. We always appreciate hearing your thoughts. So do use hashtag curious advantage or message us through whichever platform you're using.

Curious Advantage book is available on Amazon worldwide and get ready for our new book. So the Curious Imperative, topical for today, Why Questions Beat Answers in the Age of AI. It's launching this September. Discover why curiosity is emerging, not just as an advantage, but as one of the most powerful capabilities for thriving and leading in a rapidly changing world. Subscribe today and keep exploring curiously. See you next time.