07_Online - dub011 - Awin Podcast Mini-series Margate Day 2 - Mike Tomkins - (16-9) - V3.4.txt
English (UK)

00:00:00.360 — 00:00:18.880 · Speaker 1
I think the main thing is to just do things that are right and honest and legal and and all of those things. It's not just about having that success, it's being it's doing something good with that. Yeah. And again, not only can you sleep at night, you can sleep at night with a smile on your face, knowing you've done something good with it.

00:00:18.920 — 00:00:19.200 · Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:00:33.280 — 00:00:58.880 · Speaker 1
So I'm Mike Tompkins, founder of what I think is a British success story. Yeah. Um, so, uh, myself and my business partner, Ollie, uh, founded Top Cashback. Co.Uk, um, in 2005. Yeah. Um, and for 21 years, it's quite a milestone. Yeah. This year. So, uh, yeah, we offer, uh, cash back, uh, to our member base.

We've got, uh, millions of members these days.

00:01:00.480 — 00:01:01.200 · Speaker 1
Show all the numbers.

00:01:01.320 — 00:01:02.040 · Speaker 3
Not counting anymore.

00:01:02.040 — 00:01:12.800 · Speaker 1
Maybe we're like 25 million or something like that. Yeah. Um, we're operating, uh, in the UK, but also internationally now. Yeah. Um, and we've got quite a great team behind us. Behind us?

00:01:12.840 — 00:01:28.600 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. I wanted to ask if you'd, um, just be able to give us a bit of background on what prompted you to first set up the website. The background behind that, the impulse, like where you recognised there was a bit of an opportunity in the market and, you know, just the general context of how things got started there.

00:01:28.640 — 00:01:40.520 · Speaker 1
Yeah, sure. So, um, I've always been quite money savvy, as have my parents. My mother used to take off the labels off baked beans and, uh, collect the labels. These have coupons.

00:01:40.560 — 00:01:41.360 · Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, I remember.

00:01:41.400 — 00:02:23.910 · Speaker 1
And it was. It was like teatime was Russian roulette when it came to, uh, to what you were going to get for tea. Uh, you'd think you'd be getting, you know, spaghetti hoops and you'd be opening a tin of lychees and, uh, uh, yeah, it was quite interesting at tea time at our house. Um, I don't know, actually, a Sharpie fans were around, but she never levelled him up herself, but she did get discounted food.

Yeah. Uh, so yeah. So, you know, that was kind of ingrained in me from, from when I was quite young and I think similar with Ollie, he, his upbringing was, uh, quite a savvy, uh, money conscious family. Yeah. Um, so we always kind of wanted to do something in that space. Uh, we both worked full time for other companies, uh, as computer programmers.

00:02:23.950 — 00:02:25.950 · Speaker 3
Okay. Who you working for back then?

00:02:26.110 — 00:03:10.590 · Speaker 1
So I worked for a large, uh, American company, um, called editors. Um, you know, I worked in the UK. I ended up moving, um, to Germany, uh, with them. And then I ended up working at a travel company. Um, and that is where I started looking at, um, various technologies where you could gather data. So, actually, we didn't start doing cash back.

We did, um, comparison websites. Right. So we were in the travel industry. Um, and we created comparison websites for hotels and flights and various travel related things. and then we expanded it in more into shopping and retail. Um, as computer programmers, we worked out, um, the technology to be able to scrape all the websites, and not many people were doing it at the time.

Okay.

00:03:10.630 — 00:03:15.670 · Speaker 3
Um, you can't take for granted now. That's just how things are run a lot of the time in terms of getting that information. But yeah.

00:03:15.710 — 00:03:49.550 · Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with APIs and all that, they didn't really exist. Um, and, uh, yeah, we worked out some great technology to, to get listed by Google. Um, other people, uh, with deeper pockets, worked out how we were doing it, and they'd implement that. And it got very, uh, very tricky in that regard.

Um, so we're like, what can we do? So, um, we decided to rather than relying on Google and, you know, some months we were we were up there in Google and we were earning, um, enough to buy our food, buy some tins of baked beans with the labels on

00:03:50.790 — 00:04:35.630 · Speaker 1
and, um, and, and yeah, we decided it wasn't reliable. We wanted to get something that was a bit more robust and not reliant on Google and other people like, say, with deep pockets that were able to outrank us in Google. So we decided we wanted a member base. So we thought, well, we've got this commission.

We wanted to do good things. We thought, what can we do? You know, we knew all the tracking and how that worked. Um, so we decided to give some of our commission back. Yeah. So then we contemplated how much. Yeah. Um, should we keep 20%? I think we settled around on 80%. We keep 20. Yeah. And then we thought, you know what?

20% of nothing from day one is nothing, right? So let's give it a whole pack.

00:04:35.670 — 00:04:36.430 · Speaker 3
Right.

00:04:36.550 — 00:05:05.430 · Speaker 1
Uh, a plan was, you know, as we grow, the monetisation would come from eating into that. Yeah. Um, but we never did that. We persevered at 100% because we were getting such good mentions on forums, which were quite big back in the day. And, um, yeah, we continue with that. And then we got brands approaching us wanting to be in our newsletter.

So we thought, well, we can make some money doing that instead. So that's what sustained our business, right? And we maintained it at 100% cash back. Yeah, yeah.

00:05:05.630 — 00:05:20.590 · Speaker 3
Back to the moment though. There was an early stage there where I guess there wasn't any actual kind of like profit coming in. Like if you didn't have the actual advertising placements, it was all about kind of passing it all back to the members. And so did you have like a buffer in that respect to sort of get you going?

00:05:20.630 — 00:05:21.270 · Speaker 1
Not really.

00:05:21.270 — 00:05:21.790 · Speaker 3
No.

00:05:22.150 — 00:06:35.540 · Speaker 1
Um, I mean, we're in the fortunate position that we were both computer programmers, so we didn't have to pay someone right to do it. AI didn't exist where you could just tell it to go to your website or throw it up for you. Yeah. Um, so it was just our time. That was our cost. Um, so we took the plunge. We left our day jobs.

Um, yes. With a little bit of money just to sustain us a while. We did have, you know, some things trickling in from from the, um, comparison websites. Right? Not really enough. Yeah. Um, but we put the time in and commissions started trickling in, but we weren't marketers. We were computer programmers, and we tried various things, but, you know, agencies, they wanted £10,000 through on a campaign.

Well, we'll do it for a thousand. And they didn't really want to do it. We eventually convinced them because it was either that or nothing. Yeah. And then they didn't work. And we found out there was no silver bullet in terms of marketing. Sure, there's marketing that works and doesn't work, but you've got to try lots of different things and optimise it for your your business.

Yeah yeah yeah. So yeah it was tricky. Yeah. It took a long time to. I mean people say, you know, you're an overnight success business. It's, you know, years and years. What seems overnight. Yeah. No. It wasn't.

00:06:35.580 — 00:06:55.020 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, I wanted to kind of pick you up on a, on a few of those hurdles that you had to overcome. And obviously where there were maybe some mistakes on the way and missteps, etc., because that is the theme of this particular mini series. But what would you say is among the kind of single biggest, like failures or setbacks you encountered and experience in those early days?

00:06:55.100 — 00:07:30.740 · Speaker 1
Something we probably didn't adapt to quick enough was our India website, so we are top Cashback India. We launched that. I think it must have been about 2012 and we continued that until 2020 as loss making. Really um, a mistake. In hindsight, we should have called it a bit sooner. Yeah, and it's quite hard as an entrepreneur to make that call and drop something that you've put a lot of effort into.

Yeah. Um, and it's one of the things you think maybe one more year, maybe one more year. Yeah. And just making that call so that as an entrepreneur. Yeah. That was I tell you, that was a big setback.

00:07:30.820 — 00:07:45.940 · Speaker 3
At what point did you recognise, like you say, you know, one more year and we'll crack it, you know, we'll make a few changes and we'll see if that makes a difference. How do you get to that point where, like, you have to make that executive decision? What is the final kind of like nail in the coffin there.

00:07:45.980 — 00:09:08.890 · Speaker 1
Yeah. Well with that one we had with our code base, it was a shared code base. So in our code we'd have things like if this is India, do it this way. Otherwise, do it this way. So it was a, um, a debt in a way to our UK website. It was constantly, every time I wanted to develop a feature for the UK, we had to consider India.

So it was a bit of a thorn in our side as well. Um, so clearly financially we knew it was costing us, uh, we wanted to go into other countries, um, where there might be more potential. Yeah. And it was about analysing the markets. Um, and actually India, uh, we got in there early, primarily because, uh, we thought as people get smartphones in India and become more internet enabled, we will be there.

Yeah. Uh, but as it happened, not only did they suddenly jump to smartphones from, you know, kind of people have laptops with PCs predominantly throughout the country. Uh, they also jumped from small retail to people using large sites, uh, large e-commerce sites. so there weren't very many. It was like a few big ones.

And then a long tail of small ones. Um, so the market wasn't great in that regard. So there was a few things combined. I mean, it was gradual and yeah, we just we just had to make the call.

00:09:08.890 — 00:09:13.370 · Speaker 3
It was cash back. Much of, uh, kind of phenomena out in India. Was it already established or.

00:09:13.690 — 00:09:16.490 · Speaker 1
Um, it wasn't particularly. No.

00:09:16.490 — 00:09:19.170 · Speaker 3
When we launched education with the actual audience out there.

00:09:19.210 — 00:09:20.170 · Speaker 1
So, I mean,

00:09:21.850 — 00:09:48.330 · Speaker 1
we weren't based in India. I think that was a big problem as well. Yeah. Um, there was another cashback site that established around the same time, and they were based there. So we had that as kind of competing. And when we were heavily competing in the UK, um, having enough time and focus for India, we just didn't we were too busy on the UK.

Yeah, yeah. And to be fair, that worked by not putting too much focus on in our India sites.

00:09:48.330 — 00:10:00.570 · Speaker 3
If you were to go back in time to 20, 2012, was it I think you so you launched it. Would you reconsider doing that, or were there kind of lessons learned from having gone through that, that you think I actually do? You know what, in the long run, that was kind of useful to know.

00:10:00.810 — 00:10:20.290 · Speaker 1
You know what? That is a good question. Um, yeah. There will have been lessons learned. So it was a very expensive lesson. It's probably the best way to put that. Um, in hindsight, we wouldn't have done it. Yeah, but would we have learned those lessons? I don't know, yeah, we've definitely learned through the years on what to not tackle.

00:10:20.330 — 00:10:54.610 · Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There must be a few of those from over the years like that. You thought like, you know, it was it was a bumpy ride. But I'm glad we kind of did it in some ways. Yeah. Um, was there like, you know, in the early days of top cash back, I mean, you know, within the industry, we kind of consider it, you know, the biggest, you know, most successful publisher in the UK at least.

And, um, hugely kind of like huge brand equity here as well and massive like shopper base. Um, but in those early days where it wasn't so well established, was there ever a point at which you thought, you know, this might not actually work out as a business.

00:10:54.850 — 00:12:51.520 · Speaker 1
Yeah. So certainly in the early days of of of of top cash back, um, it was hard. Like I say, we didn't have the marketing budget. Um, other cashback sites, uh, did you know, and had all the platforms that they could, could use. Um, so there's a lot of lot of word of mouth. Over the years, there's been lots of small things.

There's there's always something around the corner, um, and things that take your time. You know, whether it's GDPR or all of the things that you've got to kind of implement within your business. Um, but, you know, certainly things like, uh, ITP so, uh, intelligent tracking prevention, I mean, we're all about tracking a sale to our, our member.

Yeah. Um, an Apple Safari were, you know, purposely trying to stop that tracking from happening. Yeah. Um, for the benefit of general web browsers and privacy. Yeah. Um, so there was challenges like that, and they were like, is this kind of an elimination, like an event? Yeah. Um, and then those are the cookie consents.

Um, of course, if you go through top cashback, um, onto a retailer site and then someone declines all of the cookies, well, it's the cookies that are primarily used to track that sale. Right. Um, so so that was an issue. Um, fortunately, we've got, you know, some great people in our team. Um, James Little, um, spearheaded this, uh, with the ICO.

Um, and now the ICO of officially only very recently, um, declared that cash back cookies are strictly necessary. Yeah. So even if you decline, uh, cookies on the cookie banner, our tracking cookies, fortunately, can now stay. Yeah. Um, so that was quite a worrying time. Yeah. Um, but, yeah, fortunately.

And it's. I think it's just that, you know, hanging on and doing what you can. Don't just let things happen. Yeah. Um, you know, do what you can before it's too late.

00:12:51.560 — 00:13:28.440 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a there's a common theme across a lot of the interviews that have been happening with founders around this notion of like resilience, adaptability, and also just being quite stoical about the fact that, you know, you can't control everything and there are going to be these circumstances change, events happen.

Bigger players are going to make some sort of change, like Apple, like Google, for instance. That could have quite a, you know, negative effect on your business model. And it's kind of rolling with the punches a little bit. Do you think that that's something that you've grown more accustomed to over the years?

00:13:28.680 — 00:13:56.040 · Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from from the start when we did the comparison and just had to pivot and go, what do we do now? Yeah. And do it in the right time. At the right time. And like say not before it's too late. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah. Absolutely. But you've got to do it kind of calmly and, you know, don't just do knee jerk reactions, you know, maybe see what's happening a little bit, analyse things and make good decisions.

Yeah. Or try to make good decisions that might not turn out to be, but.

00:13:56.080 — 00:14:11.880 · Speaker 3
Well, yeah. What does that decision process look like? Um, and how has that changed over time? You've got your co-founder, obviously, and that's somebody that you have obviously had to come to a sort of working relationship around how you figure those things out, you know. Can you describe a little bit about how that's evolved?

00:14:11.920 — 00:15:12.080 · Speaker 1
Yeah, sure. So certainly when it was myself and Oli. Yeah, we would um, you know, decide to do something, but we would decide very quickly and implement it very quickly. Yeah. The there weren't all these processes and, you know, any bureaucracy, it was just get it done. So in the early days it was very good and very quick at doing those things.

What we've learned over time, though, is, you know, I might come up with a decision and it might seem really good in my head. Yeah. And then I'll, I'll present it to, to our, our team, our board. Um, and you know, we might not necessarily vote about it, but we'll discuss it and debate it. And you get a good feel for how everyone else sees that decision.

So it's about not making soul decisions. It's about involving the team getting their opinions. It may be that we take it away and do a bit more work on it. Um, but, you know, doing things as a team. Yeah. Um, and I think that's really helped over the years. Make good decisions, like having a good team that.

00:15:12.120 — 00:15:27.800 · Speaker 3
Are there parts of your personality that miss those days where it was just you and Oli, and you could just quickly make a decision and kind of roll out a change as opposed to where you are now. And obviously everything has to be thought through. Have a plan, roll that out, test it, see if it works. It's it.

00:15:27.840 — 00:16:14.710 · Speaker 1
Yeah, it is it it is. It's frustrating that things take a lot longer to do. Yeah. What you've got to remember is that they're taking longer for a good reason. Um, it is worth analysing and seeing whether that can be improved and more efficient. Don't get me wrong. But, um, you know, we need to make sure that we've got the data protections in place.

Um, that things are testing. We know we've got thousands of members on our website at any one time. If we launch some code that breaks. Yeah. Um, you know, particularly peak periods, Black Friday. Yeah. Uh, it can be disastrous for us. I mean, it's not just our our members that get impacted by this, but but the brands that, you know, that we're advertising on their behalf on our website.

Yeah. Um, that have paid to have more presence on there.

00:16:14.750 — 00:16:34.390 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about, um, this is a question I've put to a lot of the founders is about those moments where you're coming up against, like, a big challenge. You know, whether it's, you know, to do with, like, some regulatory thing that's come in and, um, is suddenly a bit of a, you know, existential threat to the business itself.

Like, how

00:16:35.510 — 00:16:36.469 · Speaker 3
do you

00:16:37.510 — 00:16:40.550 · Speaker 3
go about responding to that? And particularly like,

00:16:41.630 — 00:16:50.110 · Speaker 3
is it quite lonely at times in terms of being a founder and a business leader and people are looking to you for guidance, direction. What do we do now?

00:16:51.150 — 00:16:54.070 · Speaker 3
What's that sort of, you know, experience? Like.

00:16:54.550 — 00:17:50.310 · Speaker 1
Um, in the early days, it would have been scary. Yeah. Uh, when we were smaller. Um, but we do have a brilliant team. Yeah, I think that's. That is key to success. Yeah. It's not about having all the answers yourself. It's about having a team from which the answers can evolve. So we will meet regularly, uh, as a senior leadership team.

Um, and if any issues come up, we'll just we'll, we'll discuss them sensibly, throw some ideas in, you know, try things out. Uh, have someone potentially heading up that issue. Yeah. Um, and kind of, uh. Yeah. Getting the team on it. I mean, the, the, the main thing I think is a leader is that you've got a good team that are able to do that.

So everything isn't on your shoulders and you can spread that problem amongst this great team of people that can work out the solution.

00:17:50.350 — 00:18:15.910 · Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. Um, now you talking about earlier about like the the price comparison websites as a, as a first kind of venture. Um, as a, as a business and then evolving that into, into top cashback eventually. Have there been any other sort of business ideas that you've had over the years that you look back on anything like, oh, that was pretty, pretty out there, pretty unorthodox.

And you wonder now, like, you know, what was I thinking at the time?

00:18:16.710 — 00:19:22.540 · Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, you see your competitors doing things and think, oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. But rather than jumping on it and copying it, sit and watch it. Yeah. And see whether it works. They've put the time in to test whether it works. If they're still running that in six months time. A year's time. Yeah.

Then maybe it's a good idea. Yeah. Um, so, yeah, I mean, there's some things that we've seen our competitors do that, and then they've dropped. dropped it. Right. And that saved us a whole lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and yeah, you know, we we we we try things, um, I mean, probably one of our biggest things that we tried was, was actually acquiring one of our big UK competitors.

Um, yeah. In hindsight, not a good move. Yeah. Um, but we didn't know it could have gone either way. It was actually the CMA prevented us from continuing that deal. Yeah. Um, so it wasn't that the deal fell through through anything else? It was. It was because we were in such a good position. Yeah. That they they wouldn't allow it.

And that was a lot of time and cost. Yeah, yeah.

00:19:22.540 — 00:19:29.100 · Speaker 3
Yeah yeah, yeah. What, did you take anything away from that like. Yeah. Yeah. That whole experience.

00:19:32.180 — 00:19:36.460 · Speaker 1
Well we did then go and acquire another cashback site.

00:19:37.580 — 00:20:12.099 · Speaker 1
Arguably it wasn't a direct competitor because it was in another country. It was refunded in Sweden. Yeah. Um, and that that all went through. Yeah. Um, and it's a great team there. Uh, they work really well. They have very similar ethics to us. Um, and we didn't have the, the, the CMA issue. It went through a lot smoother.

So in one way, we didn't get burnt and not go down that route ever again. I think there's sometimes there's some circumstances that it will work. Yeah. Um, it's just about taking the right balance of of

00:20:13.380 — 00:20:24.340 · Speaker 1
of of the situation. I would say not just flat out going. Right. We're not doing any more acquisitions because that one didn't work. That one didn't work for those reasons. And those reasons didn't exist in the other scenario.

00:20:24.380 — 00:20:46.460 · Speaker 3
So let's say it's a bad decision, but it's just maybe not the right set of circumstances to make it in. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you could go back in a time machine, back to, I don't know, 2005, I guess, and, and speak to your younger self at that point with the knowledge that you've got now, the experience that you've got, the battle scars that you've got now, is there any like one thing that you would say to them is like important to keep in mind.

00:20:47.300 — 00:20:49.060 · Speaker 1
Yeah, I'd probably

00:20:50.620 — 00:22:42.970 · Speaker 1
I'd probably say from the start. Do things the right way. And ethically, it's not that we didn't, but we evolved that all the time. Yeah. We internally within the business, we've got what we call our fair play policy, uh, that we apply to all of our staff. Um, but also externally, we'll apply it as well. And what does that mean?

So in the start we had issues that we had to deal with. Um, and rather than just going off your personal opinion, you kind of put yourself in their shoes and go, would this be fair? Um, so, you know, it might be, um, a member of staff, actually, you know, asking for some exceptional circumstances for some leave or other things.

Um, and it's would it be fair to, to offer that so rather than just to have a black and white policy on, you know, whether it's holidays or time off or finishing early? Um, it was, it was just applying, uh, so fair play. Principles and going. Is that fair? Yeah. Um and we'll do that on an individual basis. So it won't necessarily be, you know, one person will extend something, you know, to give it a bit more flexibility.

Uh, but for someone else they might want something different. Uh, so it's looking at an individual basis and just treating, uh, our staff, uh, the way that you would like to be treated yourself. Myself and Ollie worked for various companies. The big American company that I mentioned. Very numbers based.

Yeah. You felt like a number within that company. Uh, not a name. Um, and it was all policies. And if you hadn't had your holiday in in time, it was a no. Yeah. Um, times have evolved and changed, you know, and a lot more companies, um, extend a lot more flexibility. But we try to push that a little bit further and just just do what's what's right.

Will I extend that to any members with their inquiries? Um, but also the brands that we work with as well and just trying to make it a really good, healthy relationship. I think the main thing is to

00:22:44.130 — 00:23:13.970 · Speaker 1
just do things that are right and honest and legal and and all of those things. Back in 2005. The affiliate industry wasn't where it is now. Um, there were there were some people it was a bit Wild West in terms of, um, kind of, uh, pop ups that were dropping cookies to get the sales when there shouldn't be. And there was a lot of kind of rule breaking it.

And it was guidance really, that the affiliate networks were providing. But it, it

00:23:15.050 — 00:23:29.610 · Speaker 1
it was a lot worse back then in terms of people doing things to earn money. Uh, we wanted to do things right, um, for for ourselves and our members. Yeah. And what the great thing about doing things right is you can sleep at night. Yeah. Uh, and you can be proud.

00:23:29.650 — 00:23:30.050 · Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:23:30.090 — 00:23:54.090 · Speaker 1
Yeah. So that that is something that I think is very important to me. To me and Ollie. Yeah. And the wider team. So as a culture within our business that those ethics start at the top. And if we can filter that down as you grow and get your team down, um, on board with that and get them to get their team down, and that ripples through through the company.

And you can do things right.

00:23:54.130 — 00:24:13.850 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Um, I wanted to just kind of round things off, I guess we've spoken about, like, some of the kind of lessons from these, and I guess, and, you know, those, those challenges that you've had in the past. But rounding things off by talking a bit about what winning actually means to you, what does it mean?

What does success look like for you today?

00:24:14.250 — 00:25:08.410 · Speaker 1
Okay. Well, I mean, the early days it was about growing the business and it became about scale, um, what it is today. We're in a really good position. And so we've done all of that. You know, we've got the scale it. Don't get me wrong, it's not about not growing it. We still want to grow the business, but we're now in a position where we can do some really good things.

So, um, I'm not sure whether, you know, but we we actually have set up a joint venture company and we run sustainable energy projects. So we got a wind farm. Yeah. Um, so it's just being built in Scotland at the moment. 14 wind turbines, 65MW, will power 45,000 homes. Wow. So it's not just about having that success.

It's it's doing something good with that. Yeah. And again, not only can you sleep at night, you can sleep at night with a smile on your face, knowing you've done something good with it.

00:25:08.450 — 00:25:18.730 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and would you say that, like, your definition of what that success looks like? Has that changed over time from since when you were first starting the business? Yeah, yeah.

00:25:18.770 — 00:25:39.890 · Speaker 1
I mean, success at the start. I mean, we were doing comparison sites. Yeah. Success at the start was having a server running. Yeah. That would give us an income. Yeah. It was as simple as that. Not employing any staff. Yeah, yeah. Um, but it evolves. As you know, you've got to adapt and change and evolve, and actually working with all these great people makes life interesting as well.

And and I love it. And I love it as well.

00:25:39.960 — 00:25:47.800 · Speaker 3
Fantastic. And I'm looking forward more to the future. You know, three years from now, what would you say that like success looks like? What does winning look like then?

00:25:47.840 — 00:26:00.080 · Speaker 1
It's more of what I've just said. Yeah it is, it is, it is growing it and doing more good stuff with it. Um, and having a team that we're proud of. Yeah. Um, and having a team that are proud of us.

00:26:00.120 — 00:26:00.600 · Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:26:01.200 — 00:26:33.280 · Speaker 3
That's all for this episode of lessons from losing. Next time, I'll be joined by Kevin Edwards, founder of the Affiliate and Partner Marketing Association, as we explore what it takes to build something that's bigger than a business, and why he believed the affiliate industry needed a voice of its own.

If you've enjoyed listening, make sure your subscribe so you don't miss the rest of the series. And if you'd like to watch the full video interviews, just head over to A Win's YouTube channel. Until next time, thanks for listening and join me again for another lesson from losing.