We said, we're going to pray about this.

And he said, why would we pray about things that Jesus already asked us to do?

And so I remember just, you know, learning to submit to Jesus.

It really was through, let me try all of my ways

and then see how discouraged and sad and broken I am.

And then I'll be like, okay, Lord, I guess you were right.

And it just, it took a lot of, a lot of that, you know,

a lot of just choosing my way over his until I realized like,

your ways are actually better.

This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best future.

Well, hey everybody, welcome to Made to Advance.

It is so good to be with you.

We have a great conversation coming up

on one of the best sermons

I've probably heard in a long time.

But before we get to that, I wanna ask you a favor

and that is to like, comment, or subscribe

on whatever platform you listen to us or watch us on.

That helps let us know that this pod has been helpful to you

and it helps us get the word out to more and more people

about Made to Advance.

Today I have with me the esteemed Josh Haltom,

who is Ngeti's pastor over Community Life.

I also have with me Bree Wieringa,

the one, the only pastor of Ngeti Grand Rapids.

And so welcome to you guys, good to be with you.

Thank you. - Good to be here.

It's great to be here, great to be here.

Well, we are hit and fall here

and I feel like it feels like,

You guys feel like this is the beginning of fall vibes?

It is the beginning of the best season.

Come on. That's the way we like to start.

The fall. It's the ball.

I start like talking football, but then I do weird things.

I could go to the grocery store and buy like all the scented candles.

We just dropped $46 on pumpkins.

We budget that in.

Oh, yeah. It's the best.

The best season. Yeah.

Forty six. How many pumpkins you get for 46?

Well, a lot because we got a bunch of the small ones.

Post family farm. Shout out the porch under the TV.

Cars are gourds gourds

No, not squash. - Oh, just kidding.

Just pumpkins, big, small, white, green, orange, pumpkins.

Fairytale.

Pumpkins and squashes are kissing cousins.

Somebody, who said that?

Somebody used that phrase on staff once.

I'm sweating lightly right now.

And that was a, and I, every time,

and once she said it, like kissing cousins,

I'm like, it's the weirdest, most Kentucky phrase I've ever.

That's not fall.

No, that's something else.

What's your favorite season, Bree?

Oh, that's hard.

I like 'em all for different reasons,

but I love fall 'cause we don't really get fall

in California, so the leaves just die there.

And then it gets to like 75 degrees

and everyone's like, ooh, let's get a scarf out.

So I love having fall here 'cause it feels real

and it's like this just reminder of,

it's like my favorite season, but it's the shortest season.

Where's California land on fall decor?

Does it even happen?

Yeah, 'cause people overcompensate.

Same with Christmas.

So we go big on Christmas 'cause there's no snow.

So it's like every inflatable on the lawn you can have.

So one question about the whole leaf thing.

I've always wondered this when I'm in California.

Do the leaves just come right back then?

They don't wait for like summer, do they?

Let me phone a friend.

No, I-- - Bored?

(both laughing)

Okay, well, I think, now all my friends from California

that are listening are probably yelling at this.

But if I remember correctly, the leaves like die,

they just turn brown and they fall.

But I feel like they never really lose

all their leaves altogether.

Like the leaves always just still,

the trees always still have leaves hanging on.

That's what I feel like.

I remember being in California once

and there were dead leaves all over the floor

or ground as it were.

But then like the trees looked normal

and it doesn't feel like you ever see pictures

of California or Florida with like up here

where it's just-

No, they just like shed a little bit.

Yeah. - I think that's the word

I just made up. - Is the same true

in Northern California?

I have no idea.

Honestly, in Northern California and California

are like different states in my head.

Yeah, totally different. - So, yeah.

Just to cycle back one real quick.

So you've not heard of gourds?

(both laughing)

I've heard of gourds.

So did you buy gourds?

Gourds are the little things,

the little hard little things,

not a pumpkin's a big orange thing.

So small, orange. - Small, colored things.

They sometimes have little bumps on them.

They're kinda ugly. - No bumps.

They are uglier generally.

I mean, there's-

They look like warts.

They look like warts.

Yeah.

So big orange pumpkins, got those.

Medium ones, also.

Small orange ones, small white ones,

but they all look like pumpkins.

They're not gourds.

What's the ruling on this, Bre?

Do you think we're gonna give them,

those are all pumpkins, or are we gonna say

the small white ones are gourds?

I think we're gonna ask your wife for a photo

and we'll decide later.

Okay, that's fine.

All right, good, I can relax now.

Okay, we can get into something that's more significant,

but that's gonna, that was just gonna mess with me.

Gourds?

Every time I see it at the store,

I am gonna say it in my

I'm gonna take that real, fixate dorks,

and I am gonna put that on social

the moment I can get my hands on it.

Nice, nice work.

Well, we were all in church, be September 20.

Now, Pastor Lungs was here from Sozo City Church in Chicago,

and he was doing a message called Followers Not Fans.

And it was strong, it was strong.

And so I thought what would be fun to do

is just like be able to unpack it a little bit.

Sometimes you're hearing a message on Sunday,

and there are a lot of ideas coming at you.

And it's funny, even re-listening to that,

I'm like, man, he said a lot in 45 minutes or whatever.

So I thought it might be cool just to kind of

pull out some of the ideas and just ask,

what did these look like on the ground a little bit more,

talk about what impacted us.

But before we do any of that,

let me read the passage that was really

Pastor Lungs' jumping off point.

He was coming from Luke chapter nine,

beginning at verse 22.

And Jesus is speaking, it says,

and he said, "The son of man must suffer many things

"and be rejected by the elders.

the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third

day be raised to life."

And then this was the part that really Lungs focused in on, verse 23, "Then he said to

them all, 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross

daily and follow me.

For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for

me will save it.

What good is it for someone to gain their whole world and yet lose or forfeit their

very self?'"

So that was our jumping off point in the message, and I would just love to hear what stood out

to you guys.

What would you walk away with afterwards?

Well, I will say that I saw a side of my wife in this teaching that I've never seen before.

My wife is pretty chill all the time, and at one point I realized she is standing up,

the only one in the room, applauding mid-sermon.

But it deserved it.

So what I absolutely loved about it was when we talk about dying to self, that can have

such a negative connotation, and I think especially early on when you start walking with Christ,

you can think, "Oh, you know, deny yourself, die to yourself," and it's just this, "Am

I ever gonna get it right?"

It feels like a list of things that you have to sacrifice, and to some extent it is.

What I really appreciate about Lungs is he highlighted on the other side of dying to

to yourself is finding that like resurrected life

and finding that life to the full.

I thought he just did a brilliant job

of encompassing the joy and the reward

that comes after the denial.

I think a lot of times pastors or churches miss that,

but he tied that together really great.

And that just, that jumped out to me.

Yeah.

When you guys think of examples of in your life

where you've died to something and you really feel

like you saw the life part, 'cause I think sometimes,

I mean, it was interesting.

I think Lungs when he was getting at it,

he emphasized it wasn't just,

sometimes we think deny yourself now

and all the reward is in heaven,

but it's also life right now.

I'd be curious, did anything come to your mind

on examples where either for you or for someone else,

you died to something or saw somebody else die to something

and then you really did see life come up in its place?

Yeah, I think on a practical level,

it's like you could see it real quick and even just,

I mean, real practical, like eating, right?

You can eat the things that literally are desirable,

and then you get the results of that.

But when you discipline yourself with what you eat,

you also get the results of that.

And so it's like that little death of,

I don't get to eat that thing that I want,

but there's really like life on the other side of that.

Your body feels better, you sleep better,

you make better choices.

So on a practical level, there's that.

As far as like, I mean, as a mom and a wife,

I feel like I just live dying all the time.

You know to see the life part yet or is that like yeah when they're 18

No, I mean you you see the joys all the time in your kids and even just in your marriage and stuff

But you know, it's every day. I don't want to do these dishes. I don't know sixth grade math like that really kills me, you know

but also you just see the joy in your in your own home of

What it looks like to just make those little sacrifices. And so I mean I'm trying to think of just like small examples of

Just like with my own kids or with my husband and I gotta kind of think on that bit a bit

But I just know that in my own life. I just feel like when it's like, what does it look like to die every day?

I'm like, well

I feel like I do a little bit of that on some level when it comes to like if I was doing what I wanted

To do I'd be watching my shows and you know, like probably from the 90s. Come on, right?

Yeah, I love a good 90s, you know TV show and Boy Meets World or something

But you know, you just you don't have that luxury I guess every day

I remember financially when Christina and I were, I mean Lungs got after this,

it was really good how he approached, I thought, just money and finances. But I

remember when we were first wrestling with are we willing to trust God with

our finances, and we were so, so broke. I remember being in Chicago, Christina was

really the primary breadwinner, I was getting my master's degree at that point,

and I remember we just had to kind of wrestle with, okay, do we trust God? And is

Is he gonna be, I mean, this whole passage is about lordship, and ultimately, is he Lord,

and am I willing to die?

Am I gonna obey him when it challenges my flesh or what I would want?

And so what died definitely was that sense of, well, what died partially was the dollars

we had in our bank account, 'cause in a sense, we released those as we were being faithful

with tithing and generosity.

But I think what came to life is that really began a season for us of just having peace

over our finances, where it just felt like even when things were tight, we just had a

spirit of rest.

And I would say that began a season of seeing God show up in miraculous ways in our finances

that we'd never seen in our whole life up to that point.

So it really was like we died to our control of the finances, we died to, in a sense, releasing

some of that money that died to us, came alive to God, you might say.

But then it was like our peace came alive

and I would say miracles, honestly,

came alive during that season, which was awesome.

I can relate to that so much

because talk about being broke.

On our first anniversary, Pat and I went to Ikea

because there was like $2 hot dogs

and that's what was like the treat for us.

That's broke broke.

We were so broke.

But we were also part of a church

and we wanted to be a part of what was called

Kingdom Builders at the time, different than what it is here

but there was this big initiative, this big offering

and we were also engaged.

And so we were saving up for our honeymoon,

and we were in this kind of breakfast,

and I just felt like the Holy Spirit say,

"Sow your honeymoon savings."

And I kind of talked to Pat about it,

now granted, it didn't seem like much at the time,

but still it was a lot for us.

Oh, for sure, yeah.

And I said, "What do you think about this?"

He's like, "Let's do it."

So we gave in this offering,

and we didn't really have a plan.

We're like, "I don't know what we're gonna do

"for our honeymoon."

But the next day I got a phone call

from somebody in our church that I didn't know very well,

but they had a daughter in our youth ministry.

And they said, "Hey, I don't know if you've done anything

"for your honeymoon yet, but we have a place in Hawaii

"and we have airfare and we would love

"to pay for your airfare, pay for your stay.

"What do you think about that?"

And I'm like, "Oh my gosh."

That's amazing.

So we have so many stories like that

where we just trust it in God.

And then, I mean, some of it,

you get that immediate like, wow factor.

And some of it, it just, you reap that later on,

but we've always been reaping in any time that we've sowed.

Yeah, that's good.

That's good.

I would say for me, dying to self,

especially with an eight, six and four year old,

I echo what you said, Bree,

is it's just like a war of sanctification all the time.

My wife and I, we talk all the time about,

especially 'cause she stays home full time,

homeschooling the kids, and it's just like-

St. Julie.

Oh my goodness. - Yeah, no kidding.

I don't know how she does it, she's incredible,

but it really is just like having an eight, six

and four year old who are constantly

wanting your attention and that they deserve,

while also balancing that as parents,

We are the visible representation of an invisible God

and not taking that lightly

and knowing these years are precious.

But a big thing for me when I walked out on Sunday

was the Lord just convicted me on how I use my time,

just trying to die to how I am planning

and organizing my time.

Like I'm a planner, I'm an organizer,

and I can put together a day, a week, a month,

where I'm like, this honors God.

But then am I noticing the people in between my meetings,

my schedule, you know, when I'm driving by somewhere,

there's somebody on the road in need,

like, is that, can I die to my plan as well?

And so it's just such a work in progress.

But one thing I've been taking joy in

is just the father's heart

for when we are dying to ourself.

I think Sunday was probably one of the first times

I've walked out of a message

and not felt like beat up by,

oh, I need to do this, I need to do this.

But understanding that I have a heavenly father

who's like, man, I want you to,

and I'm proud of you.

And I don't want you to do these things 'cause trust me,

there's such a reward on the other side of these things.

And I think that's sometimes what people can miss

and probably a lot of people who are listening

need to hear or watching need to hear

is just that the Lord is not looking at you saying,

"When are you gonna die to yourself?"

It's more like son, daughter,

if you just die to yourself and take up the cross,

there is going to be so much joy on the other side of that.

And I just feel like sometimes we miss that joy

because we always feel like dying to self

get ourselves right? How are we gonna impress God? Is He keeping score?" And He's not. Like,

He is just cheering us on. My heart breaks for people who miss that.

That's so good. It makes me think of, actually, for this Sunday, a passage, so I'm gonna give a

little bit of a preview, although when this pod releases it may be in the rear view, but

just thinking of dying to self, and even the hard moments, this is Hebrews chapter 12, and it's one

It's in some ways a hard passage,

but also one of my favorite passages,

but it's on God's discipline, where he says,

"My son, don't make light of the Lord's discipline.

"Don't lose heart when he rebukes you,

"because the Lord disciplines the one he loves.

"He chastens everyone he accepts as his son.

"Endure hardship as discipline.

"God's treating us as children."

And then those famous lines,

"God disciplines us for our good,

"in order that we may share in his holiness.

"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.

Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been

trained by it. Again, Hebrews chapter 12, and just this idea that the training times, the

disciplining times, the taking up your cross times, and the Father is present in all of those

saying, "I am doing something here for your good." Now, I do think a key phrase is, "For those who

who have been trained by it.

So we have to receive what God wants to do

and not just like fight him on it.

And sometimes I can fight him on it, honestly,

where it's like, I think he's trying to train me

and I'm like, not in the mood to be trained right now.

So yeah, that's good.

What are other ordinary ways you feel like,

that you feel like the kind of the daily

picking up your cross thing?

I think anybody with kids is like, yeah,

but what other kinds of things come to mind

as far as what that looks like for somebody?

I know for me, and I was sharing this with a couple people in our department yesterday,

of just trying to make time throughout the day, throughout the week, for the Lord to

like reveal to me ways in which I need to take up my cross.

Like it's one thing to have the Rolodex in my mind of what that looks like, and you know,

some of the things of dying to yourself are pretty obvious, right?

But what are those like small hidden things?

And so one thing that I've been doing for probably about 10 to 12 months now, about

a year, and I just did it yesterday over here in our prayer room at our campus, is just

sitting quietly in the Lord's presence.

And the conversation is so relational.

I would just say, "Jesus, I'm here as your son, wanting to hang out with you.

Help me die to myself.

Give me a thought that's not my thought, like an image that I know just comes from you.

And if I get nothing, I just want you to know I'm happy to hang out here, just at your feet."

And there's been times where it's like, "Well, I guess I just hung out at your feet."

And there's also been times where I'll just randomly think of a person that maybe I need

to go and apologize to.

And dying to yourself isn't always present and forward.

It's also kind of looking back and just saying, "Where didn't I?"

And someone needs to hear an apology or, "Hey, I'm sorry I didn't make time for you."

And so something for me is just sitting in silence and just giving the Father a chance

to speak.

Because I just feel like there was so many times in my Christian faith when, boy, I did

a lot of talking and not a lot of listening. And just, you know, if one of my children,

my boys or my daughter, if I got home today and they're like, "Daddy, can I just like

crawl up in your lap and just be with you?" Yeah, just, "Oh Christ," and you're thinking

about it, right? Because it's just, it's the best. And just, I think really making time

for that with the Father has just been so important to my walk with Christ.

I think that sounds so simple and it's why it's so hard for so many people to do. Especially

I know that sounds cliche, but there really is.

And it's so hard to actually just sit

with your own thoughts sometimes.

I think, especially with how much anxiety people experience

and depression and that they don't want silence

because then they have to face their own thoughts

or they have to, you know.

And so it's hard to go in and be like,

I'm gonna just sit quietly

'cause there's so many other things you can do.

Pick up your phone and distract yourself.

And then you can do it in the name of the Lord

because you can listen to a sermon

or put on worship music to avoid having to sit in silence with Jesus. And I think that

what you're saying sounds so simple, and it's probably why so many people have a hard time

doing it. Like, "I'm just gonna go sit at the feet of Jesus and just listen." And if

we probably did that, I think most of our opportunities for growth, whatever you wanna

call it, problems, issues, they'd probably be solved, but I think that's really hard

for people. It's hard for me. I love noise.

Now, what would you guys say in your spiritual journeys, when did dying to self or taking

up your cross go from like behavior modification?

These are the things you don't do to, no, these are the things that I'm asking you to

step forward and do.

For me, it was very obvious because I didn't grow up in the church.

So when I walked into a church for the first time at the age of 18, there's a long list

of things if I was going to die to myself, I can no longer do.

But there's, I think this pivot point in maturity

and none of us have arrived, right?

We're always gonna be a work in progress

on this side of eternity.

But for you guys, when was that pivot point

and what did that look like when it wasn't dying to self

as in don't do these things,

but I'm asking you to die to yourself

by starting to do these things, whatever they are.

That's a great question and really a true,

I mean, that is a really true pivot point

where it's not just what am I saying no to,

but what am I saying yes to in a sense?

I have something that comes to mind,

but you wanna go first? - You go ahead, yeah.

I think for me, I've never thought about that before,

and it's fun to think about something

you haven't thought about before.

I think it would probably be when I got to college

and I started serving at the ministry

we're part of at Indiana University.

That's right.

The one and only. - The one and only.

Go Hoosiers. - Okay, yes, we got it.

So, but it should be a game of how many times we can

weave Hoosier references into Made to Advance.

So fun.

But I remember like I was leading

with fellowship of Christian athletes at IU

and it was like now it wasn't just about going

and having a good time and seeing everybody and all that.

It was about taking time to plan,

meeting with the leadership team,

which was another meeting on top of normal meetings.

It was when problems came up,

like eventually I became the leader, the president of FCA.

And so when problems came up,

it was like the buck stopped with me as the student leader.

And so, you know, nobody wakes up and goes,

"Hey, it would be really awesome

"to deal with some ministry problems today."

But that was what the role involved.

And so it was like choosing to step into those places

of ministry and leadership.

And I would say, and this is back to the original point,

the original idea of dying

and then something comes to life out of it,

because even as I think about that,

I have some of the best memories of what it meant

to kind of depend on Jesus in those times

and have to step up.

And at the time, I was like, oh my goodness,

or even I'm a little scared.

I've not dealt with anything like this before.

And now I look back and I'm like,

man, I grew so much through that.

I became more of a man.

I developed more confidence, more faith,

and it was all through these opportunities

to say yes to some things that required saying no to myself.

So that's what comes to my mind.

Yeah, I don't know, I'm still doing that every day.

I could go back, I have so many stories

and so much of my context is ministry

'cause that's been where I've spent most of my adult life,

like volunteering in like some level of full-time capacity,

whether it was students team or worship team,

I just have so many memories and experiences

where I ate the humble pie, but was so grateful for it.

And sometimes I'm like, man, Holy Spirit,

it'd be nicer to be corrected by you than a person.

But sometimes we don't listen to him,

and so he chooses people to correct us,

and that's still a kindness.

But there's been a lot of times where I feel like

I've had to die to myself or to my ego

or my pride or whatever.

And I think a big reason why I'm still running the race

today is because the Holy Spirit and His kindness has helped me see that it was a kindness,

I think.

Whether it was just little stories, like I'll never forget Pat and I, I'm totally throwing

him under the bus here, by the way, 'cause I'm telling him this little story, but we

were just kind of grumbling about some things, about how we didn't like some of the things,

the ways we're going in the student ministry.

And I remember our, they're some of our best friends, they were like in our wedding and

But they were the executive pastors of the time and they called us to their house. We're like, oh, that's so cool

They're having us over for dinner, you know, and you could probably see where this is going

And I think I literally brought a pie which is just funny because it was like talk about eating a humble pie

And he we had a great dinner and stuff and at the end they're like hey actually and it was hard cuz there were our peers

too, but they weren't cuz they were in leadership and stuff, but um

We want to just talk to you guys about your attitude

and I just remember like my head hanging so low in like

Embarrassment and shame of just like this sucks for them because I'm sure they don't want to have this conversation

Like but it needed to happen and I just remember walking out the car both of us just being like this can never happen again

But it was so such a turning point

It's such a simple thing to just invite somebody over and take the time to be like, hey

I'm noticing some things in like your heart posture and that's not how

how we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to live and walk out our faith. And I remember being

so annoyed and mad, but it was also just such a kindness. And it's just so many stories like that,

that I'm thankful for, where people just, they were willing to have the hard conversation,

you know, and you died a little yourself. So. - Did you, Josh, knowing that you had like,

you know, you come to Christ and you've got this list of things that are the,

no, these things need to die right now. But do you remember when it was like a shift for you on

on not just dying to those kind of so-called bad things?

Yeah, so my story is I went from literally

like the baptistry to Bible college,

which is a tough road that I would not like suggest.

It was very traditional Bible college.

Like you take your earrings out,

your hair can't touch your shoulder.

I mean, it felt like I was stepping back in time

and that's where I tried to establish

kind of like the rhythm of faith.

And it was just really difficult there.

But definitely I would say, year two out of college,

like marriage, like I didn't grow up in the church,

my wife grew up in the church.

That is when I think both of us experienced this level

of like dying to self isn't just like acting

this cookie cutter Christian way.

It's like trusting who God designed you to be

and his plan for your life and dying to self for you

may take on a totally different form

than it is other people.

And so I think that definitely like for my wife and I,

year two of our marriage, like growing up in just vastly different homes, like we were able to

understand the unique way that God has wired us to die to ourselves that's gonna lead us to the

plan He has for our life. Because I think coming out of Bible college, I was like, "Oh, it's this

cookie cutter approach. Just tell me exactly what it is." But we're all so different that dying to

self is so different for each of us. And we can encourage others how to, but I do think the way

God has wired us is so unique, and how we got to die to ourselves is also pretty unique. But that

second year out of college, married,

like that was huge for my wife and I.

Yeah, makes sense.

When Lungs was preaching, I mean,

I don't know if he has had a message

where he's had more quotables in a single message.

When I was really listening to it,

I'm like, there's like 15 things you could put on a,

like as-

Like how you say gourds all the time.

Gourds.

Yeah, totally.

He had like 15 gourds in this message.

I'm gonna read a couple of them.

I'll see if I can string them together

and then lead to something to chat on a little bit here.

Partially I just wanna read these 'cause they were so good

and I wanna re-preach them to myself.

One of the things that Lungs said

is maybe the most dangerous thing

is not that you don't get the life you want,

but that you do get it and realize

that somewhere in the process of getting everything,

it costs you your life.

That was a great takeaway.

Another one was you can build the life you wanted

and miss the life you were made for.

And then that will take me

to the third Lungs quote of the day,

which if I can find it here,

leads to something I thought it'd be cool

to wrap on a little bit.

He made this statement,

and I don't know how much he even spent time on it,

but he said something to the effect of,

"Mature believers praise God for the delay."

And then that led into this whole idea

of we tend to like lament any kind of setback,

obstacle, closed door, whatever.

And he's like, "Hey, mature believers,

I mean, recognize that sometimes God is stopping you

from stepping into the life you want,

but is not actually the life you were made for.

And it just got me thinking, I guess,

about what kinds of things do we tend to get

like frustrated by or lament that we maybe

ought to be looking at in a different way and say,

oh, maybe like God is,

maybe we ought to be praising God for this.

I'd be curious, I know this is like kind of catching us

out of nowhere, but when you think of everyday things

that you or that people within our church would deal with

on the kind of thing that it might be like,

oh, I'm so frustrated, but we should be going,

thank God you did this,

'cause maybe this is actually a good thing.

Anything come to mind like that?

>> I immediately thought of capacity.

I don't know, I think sometimes I'll speak for myself,

but I can imagine that people in our church too,

with the conversations that I have,

they're desiring more of something,

whether it be a promotion at work, more children,

more money, more of something.

And I just think when I've had those thoughts

and I look back after I might have gotten that more,

I'm like, man, I'm so thankful it came when it did

'cause I did not have the capacity or the wisdom

to steward that thing well during that time.

So that's just the first thing that came to thought.

Yeah, that's a great example.

Yeah, I was going through our prayer list,

you know, as people submit prayer requests

and going through that Monday,

and I just come in through them

and there's just like an overwhelming amount

of people right now who are just trying to figure out

God is in their employment journey. I've never seen so many people just, "Please pray for me to

find a job." And just to encourage people that all of these delays are such an opportunity to see God

come through in a way that you just would never believe. I think of our friends John and Katie,

who are on a journey. And John messaged me, and I know he won't mind sharing this for the glory of

God when the diagnosis was a little bit worse than what they thought it was going to be.

And in his text he said...

For Katie's...

For Katie, his wife's cancer.

It spread a little bit more than what they thought and were praying and hoping for.

But his text said something to the effect of, "Yeah, this is not the news we wanted,

but we're still just trusting God."

And the maturity of that posture is also going to be what allows them to see God do something

that's absolutely incredible.

So I think in all these situations

and scenarios and circumstances,

if you just trust him and what could be,

I think about the summer, my kids and I,

we went to a pool before we moved here to Michigan

and my youngest Judah, he's four,

he is the craziest independently,

but if it's trusting me, he's just like,

"So you're not gonna put me underwater, are you?

You're not gonna do it.

He's got a million questions.

So like he is just standing on like the ledge of this pool

and like, I'm just like begging him to like jump.

And he's just like so nervous.

I'm like, come on, just jump.

And he's like, are you gonna catch me?

I'm like, just jump.

And this is something he's never experienced before.

And when I finally convinced him to jump

and he saw that I caught him, all the risk, all the fear,

guess what he did like for the next hour?

Jump nonstop.

Nonstop.

I think where that comes in with just kind of the delay

or the things we're going through is,

if we can just trust that God is in control

and that he's not forgotten about his son and daughter,

the joy on the other side of this season

is gonna be just so worth it,

but it's just so hard to slow down.

And maybe it's why those moments of silence

are so important to just trust that he is good.

This didn't catch him off guard, that he is in control.

And something you mentioned earlier

that I'm just curious for you guys,

When you think about how you would have authored your life,

we can go back to, I don't care if it's 10 years old, 15,

looking for, how would you have authored it?

And how's that different from how it turned out now?

I think Bree should answer that question first.

Well, first off, I probably would have been

like performing somewhere on a stage and like,

no, I wanted to do like show choir stuff and be,

what's funny 'cause I-

So great. I could totally see that. Like you're gonna be professional. Shulk wire. Oh sure. I don't think that's a thing

But I you know

It would have been but also when I was little I had like inflatable furniture in my bedroom

And I would put all my stuffed animals on it and I would host

And be like the talk show host and record it and I don't little Ricky Lake over here. Oh, yeah

I can't believe we watched that

That was the 90s when the parents went to you know work and you stayed home and watched stuff that you shouldn't watch

but um

something like that, but what good is that?

Because you gain all this and then what?

Then you die.

When you're living for something

that's bigger than yourself,

it just makes everything better, right?

So I don't know.

I think, I am very aware though too,

that I have, by the goodness of God

and a lot of things that a lot of people pray for.

I've been married for 15 years.

I have three kids, like two kids and a baby,

because the third was an absolute miracle, bonus baby.

But so a lot of it, I mean, a lot of it is,

I'm like, thank you, Lord, for authoring my life

the way that you have.

I wanna acknowledge that.

But at the same time,

I'm sure I would have sped through some things.

Let's just make that season one page long

and not a chapter, right?

But I know enough now where I look back and go,

man, I'm just so thankful for the pace

of which God brought me through things.

And so I don't know if that's the fun answer.

I don't wanna hear your answer,

but the reason I bring that up is because denying yourself,

carrying up your cross, it is a moment of trust.

And I think when people pause and look back

on God's faithfulness and where he has brought them

versus how we would have wanted to write our own story,

we will give him permission from where we are now

to move us to where we need to be.

Yeah. - Yeah, that's good.

So now I toured your alma mater,

which is Indiana University.

Well, that is right.

Yeah, as you say it.

Last weekend, how would you answer that question?

Well, it's nice.

I don't even actually have to answer entirely

'cause there's been a TV show actually created

about what would have been my journey.

It's called "Family Ties."

I don't know if you're familiar with it from the,

was that, that might've been '80s.

That's '80s. - Oh, that's '80s.

So Michael P. Keaton, played by Michael J. Fox,

was an aspiring business executive.

He carried a briefcase to high school.

Very cool.

Did you carry a briefcase to high school?

In my heart I wanted to.

I'm not going to lie.

There's still time.

You can bring one to work.

Oh man.

I wanted to when my father-in-law had a briefcase and I always thought maybe I'll work a job

someday where I'll get to like walk in with the briefcase.

Never too late.

Never too late unfortunately, although it might be.

I don't know if maybe there's a few people out there left, but even in the most formal

jobs it feels like everybody's moved to kind of like, you know, backpacks and things.

Like a man bag.

So exactly.

So anyway, I from being a little kid

wanted to be in the marketplace and I would sit,

I still remember very clearly like vivid memories

of being in class and like drafting with pencil and paper,

like what my mansion's gonna look like,

where the helipad will be.

I mean, yeah, I was-

Dream big.

I had thoughts.

And so I'm certain that where I would have ended

would have been, at least for most of my growing up,

would have been like marketplace success,

driven, money, achievement, et cetera, hands down.

And I would have woken up at some point and thought,

man, this is a great house and I drive a nice car,

and maybe I have a boat and I have all these things,

and I don't have any reason

for really getting up in the morning.

That's what I think would have happened.

Fortunately, in God's grace, I mean,

speaking of just God's grace and speaking to you,

I was starting to wake up in college to this idea of like,

man, I don't know if the things that I would need to do

to go after this life

seemed like they'd really be that satisfying.

So I feel like the Lord kind of started weaning me off

of that idea and then called me to ministry.

And I still say all the time, I'm so glad I was,

you know, I think it's great when people do marketplace jobs before ministry,

because they've been out there, you know, in the so-called real world,

but I'm glad I wasn't, because if I would have gotten used to like marketplace wages,

and then, you know, God said, and now it's time to, and I had guys in seminary that walked away

from like major big time up in the six-figure jobs, I mean, and not low six figures, to go for

for ministry and I'm like, I hope Lord,

I would have been responsive to that.

I don't know, but he's painted a much better story

while using, I think some of the gifting

that was leading me that way.

What about you?

So growing up, I wanted to be just like a basketball player.

I knew you were gonna say that.

(laughing)

We've got a basketball player

and a professional show choir person.

I'll run the operation. - TB personality.

Keep you guys employed.

Yeah, just get us a helipad.

There is still time.

Yeah, that's what I wanted.

And I remember even, you know, early on, you know, in life,

I just, I was obsessed with basketball.

I mean, my grandpa paved the driveway

so like he could bounce a ball

and like he put up a new goal.

And I was just, I'd be out there all the time.

I mean, but then when I started like, you know,

going to church, like I was like,

oh, this kid in the youth group

who's really good at basketball.

And slowly, like over time,

like it just felt like it was an idol.

And the more that like, I started falling in love

with like just like Bible studies,

like the joy I would get out of a good Bible study

was way more of a mountaintop like experience

than like hitting a game, a game winner.

And even though I played basketball in college,

like I remember when I knew that like it was done,

it was my junior year,

we just lost the conference championship

and I'm in the locker room and I can hear the other team

just like losing their mind cheering.

And I was sitting there going, I don't care.

Like I just, I don't care, but absolutely.

You know what Lung said with that first quote

you mentioned that like, when I think about my life,

like if I had my way, oh my goodness,

just be so disappointed, just so disappointed.

Even I think about the trickle down effect of like my kids.

Like my kids love that their dad like is a pastor

that he works for a church.

And I don't know if they would even have faith in Christ

if I would have taken the route I had for my life.

You know what strikes me here is,

you know Josh Schottke, pastor of Motor City?

From Haltom City, Texas?

Yes, yeah, the good point.

And he's also a major baller.

Really?

I think, Bree-

Motor City versus N'Getty basketball game?

Now you're taking it to the next level.

I was just going Josh v. Josh.

Oh, oh, okay.

But I mean, I like the idea of the church against church.

I think that's even more fun.

Yeah, I'll give it.

A little one-on-one.

You're a guard, I'm guessing.

Shooting guard, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I think he was too.

I'm terrible at basketball.

But if you need somebody, the show choir, you can put on a halftime.

But if you need someone to fill the stands, I will get people there.

Yeah, the promoter right here.

That is my new predictive index.

It is.

Promoter.

Blum's gonna be so happy that got dropped on this.

Predictive index.

Predictive index.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

When you guys, when Lungs was talking at one point and he said, this I thought was sobering,

He's like, you can do basically spiritual things

or Christian different behaviors

that look like you're denying yourself,

that look like Jesus is the Lord of your life,

and actually you're still the Lord of your life.

I feel like there was like a collective gulp in the room

at that point.

I don't know, I mean, more than anything,

I'm just curious to hear you guys' reaction to that.

I mean, how much is that a real issue

in our lives, in our church?

just this idea of, hey, I think that Jesus is Lord of my life,

but if I were to really dig deeper, maybe not so much.

Yeah, it's because I think the gasp in the room,

which was like, you could feel the energy shift

is because everybody collectively thought,

I spent so much time trying to get this action right,

and now you're telling me that motive actually matters too?

And it was just like, that's a whole nother layer of like,

"You know, I serve, okay, but like,

what's the heart in which I serve?"

Or like, "Oh, hey, I got that homeless guy food."

Well, did you want to?

Or are you trying to balance the scales in the sky?

You know, and so I think that that gasp,

and me too, it's just like, yeah, it's not just the actions.

It's like, is your heart really wanting to do this?

Or are you just trying to appease the Father?

Are you doing this 'cause it's what a Christian does?

And that motive, just when you get the actions right,

here comes the right hook of the motive,

just right to the jaw.

I'll jump in on just this whole line.

I guess when I was thinking him talking

about specifically where you do something

and it feels like, oh man, I'm good.

I feel like sometimes we have a certain spiritual practice,

could be any number of things.

Could be, oh, I fast or I tithe

or I read my Bible or whatever it is.

And we kind of like accidentally go into,

okay, I've checked that box off,

which means he is the Lord of my life.

And it may be that that specific behavior

or whatever it was, what God was calling you to

for that moment, but I think then we can kind of get into,

I can get into a mentality where it feels like,

well, I've, oh no, I'm good, I've done that.

I'm gonna go back to the money thing

just 'cause I feel like it's really easy

and I'm just, for anybody listening,

I'm not like trying to hammer the whole money topic

much, but I just feel like it just jives with my mind of like, you know, I feel like, "Oh man,

I'm tithing. I am. Jesus is the Lord over my money." And Jesus never said, "Hey, just because

you tithe, like that means you've officially given me full lordship and you've got, you know,

there's nothing more to listen for with regard to his leadership over finances." He's like,

"That's part of it." But then it almost comes back to the question you raised earlier when you're

you're like in the morning,

do you have anything to say to me?

I'm paraphrasing.

Because Jesus could say,

and this year you're going to double your tithe.

He could say this year you're gonna take the bonus

you got at work and put it towards something special

that's not on yourself.

So I guess it feels to me like that to me is the,

where it's easy to like get into I'm still Lord of my life

is I feel like I did something that at one point

was him being the Lord of my life,

and then I just kind of like check the box

and assume that's the case.

Yeah, I had this situation with my son, Ezra.

So those listening, Ezra's the eight year old,

deep feeler, and we had the opportunity

to this upcoming summer in June to go

within Getty on a trip to Jamaica.

It's a full family trip.

So myself, Julie, all three kids can go and serve together.

And so when we received that invitation,

I went home for lunch and the kids were coming in,

Julie is coming in, so I grabbed the kids

and I explained what this trip's gonna be.

And I said, "But we're gonna pray about it."

And Ezra was like, "Okay,"

and then ran off to Julie in the other room.

And he says, "Mom, we're going on a trip to Jamaica

"to work with a deaf community.

"I'm so excited about it."

And I said, "Well, get back here."

I said, "We said we're gonna pray about this."

And he said, "Why would we pray about things

"that Jesus already asked us to do?"

And I was like-

Mic drop.

Oh, I guess we're going to Jamaica.

But it is that lordship, you know? And Sue, when I think of dying to

self, like, as it's connected to me abiding in Christ, because outside of Him

we can do nothing, as John 15 says, when I'm abiding in Christ, like dying to self,

it's never easy, but those certain actions that you're talking about, whether

it's tithing, serving, you know, whatever it is, when I abide, it

it shifts the have to to a get to.

It just changes the way I'm thinking about these things.

But when I have a season

where I'm just not really abiding that well,

like dying to self feels like that,

checking the box and checking the box.

And just slowly you're just dragging yourself

into the desert it feels like over time.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that's good.

I think that sometimes,

I guess you know that John Piper had an old phrase

of like duty took me there,

but delight brought me home.

And so I think that a lot of times when I'm abiding,

I start to be in my heart inclined

to do like the right thing.

But I still think there are times,

like fasting is a good example for me.

When I'm really abiding, it's like, man, Jesus,

I want to know you so deeply and so well

that I can't wait to fast so that we can go deeper together,

so to speak.

But I think a fair number of times when I fast,

it's like, all right, I'm fasting today.

God, I really want to meet you here.

I don't love fasting.

And by the end of the day, I'm like,

oh, I'm really glad I did that.

That was sweet.

I met, you know, Jesus met me in this place.

So I may just not be as spiritual as you,

but I would say sometimes abiding makes it a get to,

And other times abiding makes it a,

I really know this is the right thing

and I'll say yes to it and I'm glad at the end.

Yeah, it takes a while to get there.

Yeah, I don't know.

Anytime we have a conversation about,

taking up your cross or dying to yourself,

I think it's worth mentioning that Christ

is asking us to do something that he didn't do himself.

I think about like the garden Gethsemane

and he's literally sitting there on his own,

just praying, "Lord, I don't want to do this, but if this is what you want of me,

then I want your will to be done." And oddly enough, him denying himself and literally

taking up his cross is what has given us life. And with that example, I think we can better

trust that the Lord who is willing to do that for us, in the small ways that we deny ourself,

we're going to be overwhelmed with life on the other side of those things. But He's not

asking us to do something He wasn't willing to do Himself.

good. One, that He's willing to do it Himself, but two, back to the whole, it

becomes a get-to, not a have-to. That's a good example where for Him, I would say

it did start out more of a have-to than it was a get-to. I think He was glad

to obey His Father. I think He was not excited about what that meant as far as

going to the cross, and so it just goes...it's funny you'd bring that

good example up, because it is, because Jesus did it for us, we can have

comfort and confidence that there's life on the other side, but we can also, I

feel like, be comforted in our humanity that sometimes that dying to self, no

matter how close we are to Jesus, it's just gonna be hard. There was a phrase I

heard, and I shared this with staff, you guys might remember this a while back, I

was debating if it's true. I think it's true most of the time, okay? But whether

we, why don't we call it obedience, dying to self, or in this case the word I used

was submission. It's not submission until you don't want to do it. That was

the phrase that I shared, and I heard it from somebody else, and it really

struck me when I first heard it because I think we all like the idea of

submitting to Jesus, or I think, you know, in the Bible it talks to submit to your

leadership and stuff, and everybody goes, "Yeah, that's great," and I think it is great as

as long as we like what God is calling us to do

or like what the pastor is inviting us into or whatever.

But then the moment we're like, that's not my jam,

then that's the submission thing isn't so fun.

But I kind of wonder, I mean, by definition,

do you have to submit if you would have already

liked to do it anyway?

Or is it almost like to submit equals

I'm choosing to do something that's not my first preference.

Do you know what I mean?

I just get the thought of like wives are,

submit to your husband.

And you know, on your wedding day, you're like, yes,

because we're getting married.

I'm so excited to have you be my covering

and you know, the leader of our home.

And then yeah, then when it's time to do it,

it's like, oh, and Pat and I have walked through that

for many seasons where, you know,

he really felt strongly about something,

had discernment on something.

At the end of the day, we disagreed on it.

And I have to just be like, okay,

he's got to make the final call here.

And what's nice about that,

and why I actually like being a woman and a wife

is that I'm like, "Hey, you know what?

"This falls on you.

"I will gladly submit to you

"because it actually is not my responsibility anymore.

"It's yours and I'm gonna pray that

"you're making the right call."

But even in our submission to Jesus,

it's like the same thing.

And even with tithing, it's like I am covered

because I am bringing my offering,

I am being obedient to the word.

And so in my submission, whether I wanna do it,

whether I don't, the end of the day,

what's really nice about this

worry about it anymore, because I'm actually just being obedient, and so I'm covered in all of it.

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Yeah, I think that I've learned submission mostly through, like, stupidity. Honestly,

coming to church at like 18 years old, not from the greatest examples in my family, people who

were broken, didn't go to church, had some struggles. There's just a lot allowed in our

household that I think a lot of people wouldn't allow their children to be doing in their

household. And so I remember just learning to submit to Jesus, it really was through,

"Let me try all of my ways and then see how discouraged and sad and broken I am, and then

I'll be like, 'Okay, Lord, I guess you were right.'" And it took a lot of that, a lot of just

choosing my way over his until I realized, "Yeah, your ways are actually better. I've tested it

Very thorough and your ways are absolutely better.

Yeah, that's good.

The other day I was working on a message.

I don't think I shared this last time we were doing a pod,

but I was working on a message.

I am so, and as they say, flow state, I am going.

I mean, I'm like, I have this room

on the second floor of my house.

It's really great.

I didn't realize how nice it is to have my office

on the second floor because I'm so easily distracted

that if I were on the bottom floor,

anytime like a car, a pedestrian, anything,

I'd be watching, but all I can see is like the sky

and trees and such.

So I'm just like writing this message with Jesus.

I'm just going.

And all of a sudden I hear like loud noises

outside of my house.

And so I stand up so I can get a view of down,

down on the lawn.

And the dude who does our fertilizer is out there.

And

He's going around the helipad.

(all laughing)

Yeah, exactly.

I'm like, be very careful, okay?

'Cause I just put fresh lines down for the helicopter.

Yeah.

But, so anyway, I see him starting to get ramped up

and I've talked to him before,

but I just was like in the flow state.

So I'm like, he's gonna do his thing and he'll go

and that'll be great.

And I felt the Lord like just tugging on me like,

hey, go chat with him, you know?

And so finally I walked out there

and said I'll chat with him.

And it was, and what was cool is,

cool about the whole conversation was,

it was one of those moments where I had to submit

to the Lord, like my inclination and my flesh,

and it's so funny when it's like

you're doing a spiritual thing too, right?

But in my flesh, I wanted to do my thing in that moment.

And I submitted to the Lord and I was like, all right.

And I went out, had a great conversation with him.

This guy's been doing lawn stuff for me

for like a million years,

and we've never had a serious, significant conversation.

and bro is ending up in tears in my front yard

and praying with him and all this.

And I went back up to finish the message

and I thought, you know what, God,

it turns out you really do not know what you're doing here.

But I do think that was a good example

where I had to submit, obey, die to self,

and I didn't want to in the moment.

It was definitely contrary to human nature

and yet life was on the other side.

Well, I think that's important,

like the life on the other side,

as it was Pastor Long's title of his message,

because so many people can hear that dying to self

and just think it's all about achievement,

and I will die myself into the Father's affection,

He'll finally choose me.

And it's like, no, like the Father loves you as you are.

Before you've done anything, He loves you as you are,

but He loves you way too much to keep you there.

One of my favorite passages of scripture here recently is,

you know, Jesus' baptism.

And for all the things Jesus is known for,

He hadn't done any of them yet.

He had not healed anybody,

not fed thousands of people,

and He comes up out of the water and the Father says,

"This is my son with whom I'm well pleased."

And so the Father loves and is pleased with the person

who has yet to start dying to themselves,

but He loves them so much and wants them to know

that there is so much more life on the other side.

Yeah, it reminds me of a really famous phrase,

I'm gonna kind of adapt what you just said

for the sake of the conversation here,

that we deny ourselves from a place of acceptance,

we don't deny ourselves for receiving a place of acceptance.

And just this idea, we are God's children,

He loves us, He is delighted in us,

and any time we're choosing obedience,

submission, dying to self, so that we say yes to God,

It is not to please, to make God love us more.

It is not so that we can be more accepted.

I do think it's fair to say it is so

He can give us more life.

And what a good promise that is.

So, good conversation today.

Thanks for hanging out, you guys.

This has been awesome.

Gourd.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation today.

And again, it was coming off of a September 20 message

at Engedi Church.

Pastor Lungspreach really would encourage you

to check out that message

if you haven't listened to it yet.

If you have, honestly,

go back and listen to it a second time.

It is well worth it.

I've listened to it now a couple times

and man, I picked up things a second time,

I didn't hear the first.

So if you did appreciate this conversation,

if you were encouraged by it,

please do rate and review our show.

That is such a massive gift to the team.

This has been a production of Engedi Church.

We've got more incredible conversations on the way.

And so until next time,

know God made you to advance.