We don't know our need for Him unless we're put in a situation where we need Him.

And so the greater stress we're under if we're turning towards the Lord, you know, He's going

to be deeper still than whatever depth of need we have.

And so if we turn to Him in times of stress, in times of pruning, I think He's just that

well that doesn't run dry and He gives more and more and more.

But we don't know that unless we have to turn towards Him.

And we have a choice in those moments.

We can put our energy towards the Lord or we can turn away from Him.

I have to turn towards the Lord to say, "Holy Spirit, you've got to help me.

I can't do this on my own."

This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best future.

Well, hey, welcome everybody.

It is so good to be with you.

And before we get to an incredible conversation

that we've got coming up,

I wanna ask if you would comment, subscribe,

like the pod, wherever you listen to it,

that lets us know and lets our team know

that the pod is helpful, it's been encouraging to you,

and it also helps us get the word out

about Made to Advance to more and more people.

Well, today I have with me the very Reverend Josh Haltom,

who is Engedi's pastor over Community Life.

I also have with me Pastor Christina Aulik,

who leads Engedi's Global Missions efforts.

And so welcome to the studio guys.

It's good to be back.

Yeah, good to be here.

So we've got a little bit of a,

kind of an issue that we need to address.

I think it's important.

We just, we just had it.

We don't need to hide from it.

Just need to address it straight on.

We just need to bring it out.

When Bree was last in that chair, Christina,

we had a really, I'd say heated debate.

Yeah.

Over weather, Haltem here bought gourds

or small pumpkins.

(laughing)

I spent $46 on what I thought were pumpkins.

And I was challenged if they were gourds.

Yes.

And I'm here to let you guys know that I've been duped.

Oh no.

Okay, so let's do a quick quiz.

Okay, 'cause I know there was a little conversation

on text, but I suspect you're gonna have even more

than what I know.

Yeah. - Okay, let's hear it.

So what I found out one,

is that pumpkins and gourds are from the cucumber family.

Okay.

I didn't think cucumbers should be the head of any family.

They feel kind of discarded a little bit,

but I brought a selection of my pumpkins and other things.

And other things.

So if anybody is listening,

they need to really jump on YouTube and watch.

At least the first five minutes.

Yeah, this is gonna be a thing.

This is gonna take five minutes to establish

what is a gourd and what is a pumpkin.

So I'm gonna pull something out of this box

You guys immediately tell me what you think it is.

Okay, no peeking.

All right.

This is a real test, oh yeah.

Oh, I'm gonna say gourd.

I'm gonna say gourd too.

Yeah, this is a gourd.

Okay.

Because the bumps?

The bumps make it a gourd.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right, one for one.

Well, that makes me nervous

about the previous debate though.

If he's talking about-

What we got here?

That is a pumpkin.

I'm gonna say gourd, that is a gourd.

This is a gourd.

Oh no.

Boom, two to one.

(laughing)

It's a cute mini pumpkin.

Pumpkin, come on.

That to me.

It's a cucumber.

(laughing)

That to me looks like a what's Cinderella riding on?

A pumpkin carriage.

A carriage, it's a carriage.

I see a carriage there.

I say cucumber.

Okay, so it's close.

(laughing)

It is a pumpkin.

Oh, shh.

But it is close to what is called a Cinderella pumpkin.

That's a real thing.

Bro, I get another half point at least for that.

I call out Cinderella without having any idea.

That's prophetic.

Yeah, it's a gift you have, Brian.

I'm going back to gourd.

It looks like the first one.

This is a gourd.

But this would be kind of some of the proper shape

of a Cinderella pumpkin.

Okay, this next one.

Yeah, this is what I'm nervous about.

I know what's coming.

Tina.

I'm saying gourd.

Or acorn pumpkin.

Oh, I like what you did there.

I'm going pumpkin.

Acorn squash.

Oh, I've always seen those as green.

Yep.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes, they are typically green,

but they do have orange acorn squash.

Okay, well I get half a point.

This is literally a quarter of what I bought.

I'm really impressed with your selection.

I would like to stop by your house and see the display.

Absolutely, you can.

What are the little white ones then

that look like mini pumpkins?

Squash.

Oh, that's a squash.

Sorry, gourd, gourd.

Oh, it's still a gourd?

That's still a gourd, yes.

Wow, well, first off, I am very glad I brought this up

because many are gonna appreciate this lesson

in gourdery right now.

And this is good.

Oh my goodness, we need to keep this going all fall.

I don't know what else we can say.

That's super helpful, we've settled the debate

and I think probably that's gonna be

one of the most valuable things people take away

from this particular pod, so.

I hope not.

Second.

(both laughing)

Well, it is a great segue because on September 27,

we had a message in a Getty that dealt with

the very famous vine and the branches text

in John chapter 15.

And so we're gonna unpack that a little bit more

and just maybe dig in in some ways

that we didn't have time to on that Sunday morning.

But I thought it would be cool if I read it first,

just so those who are listening can be all up to speed

with what we're talking about today.

So this is Jesus speaking, John 15, verse one.

Jesus says, "I'm the true vine,

and my father is the gardener.

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

while every branch that does bear fruit,

he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

You are already clean because of the word

I have spoken to you.

Remain in me as I also remain in you.

No branch can bear fruit by itself,

it must remain in the vine.

Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

I am the vine, you're the branches.

If you remain in me and I in you,

you will bear much fruit.

Apart from me, you can do nada."

That's my own translation.

"If you do not remain in me,

you're like a branch that is thrown away and withers.

Such branches are picked up,

thrown into the fire and burned.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you,

ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you.

This is to my father's glory, that you bear much fruit,

showing yourselves to be my disciples."

So that is the text.

I am expecting extremely vibrant conversation today

because I am at the table with two gardeners.

And when you guys, when we scheduled this group here,

I didn't realize that I was with two proper gardeners.

I don't know if you can put me in the same category

as Haltem on the gardening.

I love plants.

Yeah, you're gonna be the guy on this.

But Christina has water measuring tools for her things

and other special things.

Okay, so anyway, so we got two gardeners,

that'll be fun.

I would love to hear anything that you guys wanna like,

you know, dig in on a little bit further

from when we heard this message.

Well, I first think we need to establish

something very important,

and that is whether or not Haltom talks to his plants.

Because it did come up in the message on Sunday

that some gardeners have partnered with scientists

to figure out about talking to plants.

So what say you, Josh?

So I don't talk to my plants to get them to grow.

I didn't realize how this is gonna sound until I said it.

I talk to them just because like-

They're your only friends.

Like we're friends.

(laughing)

So we have like a teardrop like vine plant

that I set on our bookshelf.

And so I could just, the vine comes down,

but I'll move it some mornings to get it some morning sun.

And I'll say things like, "Oh, there you go.

"That's not nice."

Or like, I'll put it back up and kind of like take the vines

and I'll be like, "Ah, there you go, bud."

Like, it's just a-

Can we talk back?

Not yet, not yet, not yet, but it is a real thing.

So I have a friend who grows a lot of tomatoes

and he will put a battery operated radio out in the garden

and play worship music over his plants.

Okay, that's a next level I had not considered.

I don't know.

You know the translation of the great commission

that I think is in the gospel of Mark

with the shortened ending that doesn't actually,

they say probably wasn't in the gospel.

This is full nerd out right now.

But that is where it says,

"Preach the gospel to all creation."

And which saint was it?

Oh, I'm blanking out right now.

I'll have to find it as we get going in the conversation.

But he had a really high view of God's creation

and stewardship of the environment.

And he based it on that verse,

preach the gospel to all creation.

So in some ways, your buddy is in line with the saints.

Yeah, no, I think so, I think so.

I'm gonna figure out the answer to that,

but what else you guys got?

So one thing that jumped out to me

anytime we cover this section

or from what was discussed on Sunday

is all the context for this flows from understanding

what does abiding mean.

And it's such a powerful image

that I think kind of loses its drive and its oomph

for people who don't truly know what abiding is.

And so what does abiding look like for each of you

in your life?

you know when you are abiding?

Like what are those practices, those disciplines,

the mindset, what does that look like for you guys?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And I think some practices definitely lead to that,

but I first think it's about a heart posture

and an attitude of mind.

And so for me, when I feel like I'm abiding the best,

like I'm most healthily abiding, if you can say it that way,

is when I feel at rest on the inside,

no matter what is happening in my context,

but when I feel connected to the Lord, I have peace.

And when I'm abiding, I think I have purpose,

I think I have more patience with people.

And so I think there are natural things

that flow out of abiding.

And then kind of backing it up,

like, okay, so how do we do that?

I think which is kind of your question.

You know, to me, that looks like getting still with the Lord,

turning off distractions from my phone,

like being in the Word and really reading my Bible,

thinking about what it says, asking the Lord,

like, what do you want me to take from this?

How do I move forward out of this place?

And then not leaving it just like in those minutes

of my day, but continuing to come back to the Lord,

like, Holy Spirit, what would you say to me right now?

I'm listening, how should I approach this situation?

So I think there's like a connectedness

that starts with a good foundation in my day,

but also for me, I think it just looks like

a lot of time in worship.

Like getting my perspective right,

my eyes focused on the Lord,

and it kind of just trickles out

to shaping the rest of the way I view life and my day.

What about you, Brian?

Well, I'd be interested to hear

what you guys think about this,

but with the way Jesus talks about abiding

or remaining in the NIV,

you know, he goes into that verse 10 of,

"If you keep my commands, you'll remain in my love."

And so then it kind of becomes this question to me

of what does it mean to keep his commands?

What's that really look like?

So I do think it means being a person who knows God's word

and then keeping them, I mean, I don't know,

it's like, you know, every moment of every day,

I'm not sitting there going,

"Okay, am I keeping the commands?"

So I was thinking about this after the message,

like what does that look like in normal day life?

And I'd have to do more digging on this,

I'd be curious to hear what you guys think,

but I feel like it's like operating in the stream

or in the flow with a kind of kingdom of God life

that the word points to.

Where it's not like I sit here and go every moment,

like okay, what's the word say?

am I obeying right now?

But just having a life that flows

with the kind of life the word describes.

Yeah, and so it's not, you know,

when I think of like you go in a restaurant

and you're talking to your server,

it's not like I'm thinking, oh my gosh,

what's the Bible say right now?

You know, I need to love the neighbor,

you know, so I'm gonna love my neighbor right now.

But it is like, what does it mean to operate

in a way that feels like I'm living like Jesus would

towards this person.

And so I don't know, that's what comes to my mind.

How about you?

Yeah, it's been different in different seasons of life.

And I feel like the Lord just, that's what he does.

You know, there used to be seasons

where it was a lot of like reading and journaling.

And that is just when I felt just,

as you mentioned, Christine, just so connected

and just so present with the Lord.

But I noticed if I try to just make that kind of

almost an idol of like, yep, this is what it's like to abide.

All of a sudden it's like, oh no, no,

Now it's silence. I'm sitting in silence. And I do, what's been so interesting to me is the way

that abiding can be so common for everyone, but also so different for everybody. I think about

early on when we first had kids, specifically actually when we had our youngest Judah,

my wife was staying home with him and abiding for me, I was with a group of guys and we were

reading the New Testament together in 30 days. And it was just like, we're spending a lot of time.

And that was like my abiding.

But for my wife, she was like,

"Am I abiding right now with like some postpartum stuff

and being at home with the kids?

Like I may get like two minutes of scripture in

and just have worship playing in the background.

And that's what my abiding is."

And so it's changed for me throughout the seasons,

but I love that our Lord is so gracious

in knowing our hearts and our minds and our circumstances

that abiding can look different for all of us.

I just think it shows the beauty of how he sees us

and wants to know us.

I think that's really true,

especially because in certain seasons,

like even in the pruning seasons,

we may have less capacity to spend hours

digging into the Bible.

We might only have the mental, emotional capacity

to receive 10 words and think about that.

So I think there's a seasonal component to what you said.

The other thing that's interesting to me

is in other places in the Bible,

when it talks about, like what you were saying, Brian,

about verse 10 saying, keeping the commands

is like remaining in his love.

And Psalm 119 says, I run in the path of your commands.

And then that's the NIV and the NASB says,

I shall run in the way of your commands.

And both of those come with a promise

of like enlarging your heart and growing your understanding.

And I think there's an active component to it.

And it's urgent, you're running.

Like that's a really good image for me

because sometimes I think in my past,

I thought of remaining as kind of like passive.

Like I'm just kind of sitting here,

you know, I'm remaining with Jesus.

And it's like, no, it's actually active and moving.

It's doing something.

I don't mean like doing a task,

but it's got a life to it.

Yeah, right.

It's not just like sitting there

in this pleasant spiritual place,

disconnected from things with having ambient music on

and candles and whatever.

there's a progress of sorts.

Right.

Yeah, that's good.

That's good.

What's stuck out to you, Teen?

Man, I'm gonna say,

I think probably the most challenging aspect

of this set of verses is something

that was talked about on Sunday,

but it's the whole idea of pruning

and how we push back against pruning.

And I've spent a lot of time just thinking about,

like, why is that?

Like, why do we push back against it?

And I was thinking a little bit about this jade plant

we have in our house and I never pruned it like one time

over, I don't know, six years or something.

And eventually it was like literally bent sideways

like a hurricane had come through our house

and it eventually actually fell over.

And I think that as the person caring for the plant,

I was afraid to prune it because I didn't really know

what I was doing.

I didn't wanna like cut something off

that seemed like it was actually growing.

But the truth is like when we prune,

what we're doing is we're really helping to make it healthy

and we're cutting off things that might have disease

or it's not giving life and it's giving opportunity

for that branch to actually receive all the nutrients

so that it can produce a bloom or grow more

and not just like more leaves, more leaves

or petals or whatever.

So I think that was a good like equivalent example for me

And it's a good encouragement to say,

like we don't need to resist pruning

because we're like bent over growing in the wrong direction.

Like pruning puts us on the right track.

It puts us moving in the right direction

so that we can devote our energy

to the things that are life-giving

and the things that are gonna suck life

and maybe they're actually diseased,

they can come off and we can still feel good

about like I'm connected, I'm growing.

And yeah, that whole idea of pruning,

How do you guys feel about like just your natural reaction

to the idea of pruning?

Well, before, just one quick clarification question.

Where is the plant that you're speaking of now?

(laughing)

I remember the bent over on your desk looking all sad.

It's currently in the sunroom.

On that table, that's the same plant?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

That's power of pruning.

Yes.

The power of pruning is real.

Bro, we needed a before and after on that thing.

I do have it on my phone.

Literally, there was a pot and the literally,

the thing went like this right off the edge

and it looked like almost like a vine of sorts,

like the way it was hanging down.

Now it's like a plant that goes upright.

It's growing in the proper direction

and you also cut off the leaves

so that the ones that remain can get more light

and more air, so.

You know, one of the things that writers

sometimes talk about is the phrase,

literally, being bent by sin.

It's like spiritual formation writers

will talk about being bent by sin

or the bending power of sin,

where it's like bending you off the direction

you were created.

That's a great word picture that you just,

I mean, I don't think intentionally knew about that language

but it's a perfect language for like,

he takes what gets bent by sin and straightens it out

so it's growing upright, that's good.

And we can run on the path of the commands

we're in the right direction.

Right on, right on.

Then you see this plant.

(laughing)

We'll show you after.

Yeah, what do you think about discipline?

Training, it's discipline and-

It's pruning. - Pruning, pruning.

I think it comes down to trust,

is such a huge thing just because I feel like

we can so easily look at God's pruning as God's absence.

Like it's just really, really easy.

But if I trust the Lord, like fully trusting the Lord,

that any circumstance you find yourself in,

you can be like, all right, Lord,

like I guess this is pruning.

And that's kind of, you know, that leaning in factor.

I'm still gonna talk to you 'cause I think you're still here.

I don't think that you're punishing me

'cause pruning is different than punishing, right?

And sometimes you don't know the difference.

Like it may feel the same until you get

on the other side of it and you realize what he did

in your life was helpful because you're looking

at how you are fruitful.

But for me, when I think about pruning,

so much of that is just coming down to trust.

And what I've learned to do in really difficult moments

is I'll just say this quick little prayer,

Lord, can you show me what you're doing here?

Yeah, that's good.

And I just try to have the eyes to see

and the ears to hear and the heart to receive

what that answer is.

just that short little prayer of like, "Lord, I'm not gonna feign trust here." And like, "Oh yeah,

I see it, Lord. I see what you're doing." Just like, "Lord, I don't know what you're doing here,

but I love you and I trust you." And so I think pruning just comes down to trust, because if

he's pruning your life and there's not that trust, it is just a different image of the Lord.

I think that's really good because I feel like when we're in seasons of pruning, whether they are

things that are happening to us, things that we've done by our own making, like we've deviated,

we're broken. I mean, there are all different kinds of reasons, I think, that the Lord prunes us.

It's so important that we remember the character of God, because our circumstances and the world

wants to tell us, and our flesh wants to tell us, you know, one message. But when we go back and we

see, like, over the course of history, over the course of the Bible, what do we know about the

the character of God.

Well, he's forgiving, he's loving, he's a creator,

he's a sustainer, you know, he's generous.

Like, all the things of his character,

we ground ourself in the truth so that we can trust him

when our circumstances feel like a mess, yeah.

After you've been through a few seasons of pruning too

and you've seen what has come out the other side,

I feel like a lot of things in spiritual life,

early experiences of, let's say, pruning,

may feel super disheartening, super dark,

super when's this gonna be over,

but when you have a few of those under your belt

and you have chosen to invite the Holy Spirit into those,

and that's a key passage on this whole topic

is Hebrews chapter 12, and that section ends

that God produces this harvest of righteousness

through the discipline or training or the pruning,

you might say, for those who have been trained by it.

And I think when you've allowed God to train you,

like we're talking about, you've invited it,

you've prayed that prayer,

then you come out the other side and you go,

wow, that was really hard, but I like who I am better now.

I like what I see in the mirror

as far as the character of who I am

and other kinds of learnings you can have as well.

And I think you do that a few times

and all of a sudden, the pruning times,

I don't think they're ever easy,

But I do think when you've seen fruit multiple times,

you're like, this is really hard,

but I know it's gonna come out really good.

And it's harder for somebody who's earlier in their journey

because I don't know if they've got as many stacked up

points of evidence where they've seen that work out.

Yeah, pruning took on, honestly, just kind of a,

I had a little bit of a revelation about it recently,

'cause I've always thought about,

you're cutting this branch back for its health,

so that way it can flourish a little bit more.

But I think you guys are both at a teaching I did recently

where I spent the first like 10 minutes

just talking about plants.

Yeah, that was great.

So that kind of spread within our church

kind of this thought of like,

send Josh pictures of your diseased plants

and ask what's going on.

And so one lady-

We should change your job title.

We should, yeah.

Like community life slash,

but what's a person, a plant person called?

Horticulturist.

Horticulturalist.

I don't know.

Horticulturalist.

Horticulturalist.

Horticulturist.

H

You're getting the pictures.

I received a video of this like huge tomato garden

and just like, what's going on?

Like they're just not growing.

You know, I paused it and was zooming in.

I'm like, oh, I see exactly what the problem is.

And it wasn't evident to them at all.

And so you guys ever grown tomatoes?

No.

Okay, so-

I've eaten them, but yeah.

Figured that.

So tomato plants have main vines and branches

but they also have these things called suckers on them.

And it's, you know, if there's a vine right here,

suckers will grow up in the V of the vine and they flower

and they look like they're going to produce fruit.

But all they're doing, they never will.

All they are doing is pulling energy from the areas

that if it had that energy, it would produce fruit.

And so you need to go and like, you know, trim the suckers.

And it just hit me that like pruning isn't always sin.

It's not always just like bad characteristics.

It is the Lord looking at your life and saying,

I see you're giving all of the energy to this thing

and I'm going to lovingly pull that, take that away

because that's not gonna produce the fruit in you

that I desire.

And so it may look like, why are you taking this thing

from me or why did you deny me that job or whatever it is?

But in reality, like he's looking at it and saying,

just wait because the way you were running

was not gonna take you to the place

and experience like abundance.

And so, yeah, so suckers taught me

a whole new thing about it.

And like even the name that they're called suckers,

just like you just think of something

sucking the life out of, you know, whatever.

So, all right, I'm gonna piggyback on that

because right after we had this message about John 15,

somebody who's doing some research right now

on vineyard stuff sent me some interesting thoughts.

So when we were in Italy, I think you call them the venter,

is that's the person who like runs a vineyard,

yes, the venter.

They were saying at this vineyard we were at,

how important it is to prune the vines

and to stress the plants.

And I kind of followed it, but I didn't entirely,

all I thought was this sounds really biblical and cool,

but I gotta learn more,

and I haven't since I got this email.

So I'll just kind of read a couple of things here.

They say that for a vine to produce

good or exceptional fruit,

the vine needs to be pruned

and specifically placed under stress.

So failure prune creates an overextended,

just got done saying cut now, come on somebody,

overextended and exhausted vine

that only creates unhealthy or underdeveloped fruit.

And it says when a vine is stressed,

it will concentrate its energy into its fruit set

as a way of turning its attention to reproduction

and creating a richer and better quality grape.

It says later on here,

some of this is a little hard to apply totally spiritually

'cause stress is often created by the venter

by limiting the abundance of water and nutrients,

which feels a little counterintuitive

because we wanna stay close

to the water and nutrients of Jesus,

but be that as it may,

It goes on, "By limiting these necessities,

"the vine will concentrate on developing better fruit

"by remaining dependent on the venter.

"The stress the venter creates

"doesn't isolate the vine from him,

"but forces the roots to dig deeper into his presence."

So I thought that was cool.

That is cool.

(laughing)

Well, that is cool.

Yeah.

Situations that force it to dig deeper.

Yeah, intentional stress.

And even as we're talking about,

the word itself pruning, I mean,

in its most obvious application of the metaphor,

it does feel like a cutting away, a removing,

but of course, metaphorically, it can be really,

I mean, just a creating of a stress, let's say.

Not just I'm taking this away, and I think about that

because what they're saying here, stressing the vine.

So can pruning sometimes be God asks you

to step up to something that is bigger,

I'm just thinking out loud right now,

maybe that is bigger than what you're used to

or takes you beyond what your natural capacities

have been up to that point.

And is it possible that a pruning could be

somehow God is introducing stress in a way

that causes you to depend on him in a new way?

What say you?

>> I totally think that is what the Lord does

because we don't know our need for him

put in a situation where we need him.

And so the greater stress we're under,

if we're turning towards the Lord,

he's gonna be deeper still

than whatever depth of need we have.

And so if we turn to him in times of stress,

in times of pruning,

I think he's just that well that doesn't run dry

and he gives more and more and more,

but we don't know that unless we have to turn towards him.

We have a choice in those moments.

We can put our energy towards the Lord

or we can turn away from him.

And it's not a one and done, it's every time.

We have to make that decision over and over again.

And I can think about really challenging times in my life

that were very hard, going through cancer,

I had a choice, what was I gonna do?

Turn towards the Lord and I found his care for me

to be deeper than I could have ever imagined

because my need was so great.

My stress was so great.

And then I think about stepping into ministry leadership.

That was a different kind of stress

than like a quote unquote good stress,

but totally felt beyond me.

Like I have no idea what I'm doing.

I don't know how to be a global missions pastor.

Like nobody told me how to do this, you know?

But I have to turn towards the Lord to say like,

Holy Spirit, you've got to help me.

I can't do this on my own.

So I really think that's a great, a great picture.

How's that played out for you?

Well, go ahead, you go ahead.

Well, just like the verse that comes to mind

how his powers made like great in our weakness and not his powers made great when we're powerful

and when we're ready and when we're...

And I'm reminded when you were talking, Christina, of a conversation I had with somebody this

summer.

So I had the chance to speak at a couple of conferences and they were at the university

I graduated from.

And so I had the chance to catch up with...

He was my preaching professor when I was there, but he's now become the president of the university.

And so when I was sitting down with Dr. Overdorf, President Overdorf, I suppose, at Johnson

University and we were just having this kind of natural conversation.

We're right there in the foothills of the Smokies.

And I just asked him, I said, "Hey, how has all this added responsibility changed your

prayer life?"

And he thought for a moment, he said, "You know what?

In all this transition, no one has actually asked me that."

And he gave it some thought and he said, "You know, I wake up every morning and realize

that what is ahead of me and what I'm responsible for is so great that every day I say, 'Lord,

I have to depend on you.

I cannot do this on my own.

And it just led to such a great conversation

about knowing the difference between not abiding

and jumping into something that is way too deep,

way too quick, or being positioned to say,

Lord, I can't do this without you,

and showing up with a willing heart, hands, head,

for him, his power to be working through your weakness.

And so, I just want you to mention,

remind me of that conversation.

So I think a good takeaway from this whole thing,

and this is fresh even for me thinking about it

just with you guys, is just thinking that pruning,

even though the most direct application

is like what's God cutting away,

just thinking those experiences of him refining us

and training us can be, you know,

it can be taking things away,

it can be adding, taking us to new places,

adding responsibilities, a variety of things

that will take us into greater fruitfulness.

You mentioned something earlier, Josh,

I think it would be cool to explore a little bit.

the idea of what's pruning, what's punishment,

how are they related?

Do you have any thoughts on that already or not really?

I think that's a really practical question people wonder

is how do these things relate to one another?

And I do think there can sometimes be some overlap,

but I'm curious if you had any developed thoughts on that.

>> Yeah, I never jump in much into the word punishment

just because the text just so overtly talk about

Christ took our punishment.

But I do think that there is a big difference

between consequences and pruning.

It's when you're not running in the ways of the Lord,

that he still loves you,

but there's gonna be consequences to that.

And it doesn't necessarily mean it's a situation

where he's leaning in and pruning,

it's just, you gotta know better.

And we've all been there.

But I think the pruning,

I just think we have to understand the character

and the heart of God.

that whole text section, the verse right after it ends, it says, it talks about remaining in his

love. And when you are remaining in his love, I think just the Holy Spirit helps you discern that,

"No, this is just a consequence from your anger or from your sin, whatever it is." Or like, "No,

like the Lord is at work here, pruning your life." And pruning happens, I think, when we least expect

it, right? When we're just kind of going about our days and all of a sudden it's

like, "What's going on here?" And that's when you got to lean to the Lord. So I've kind

of entertained it in consequences and pruning as opposed to, I try to leave

out punishment, because I think that paints a different picture of God. I think that's good. I

wonder though, can you say that if pruning, I wonder if a pruning is a

broad enough category that you could say, "There could be times I'm entirely

abiding and I, you know, I'm walking in the ways of Jesus and God prunes me. But

if God brings some kind of consequence, teaching consequence, for when I have

gotten off the way of Jesus, I mean, I think that could be pruning too. I wonder

if there's one big category of pruning potentially, and sometimes it's a pruning

that's, I'm in a good fruitful place and he wants to prune me to become even more

fruitful. I guess the outcome no matter what is like pruning is difficult. It,

that's the way it is and it results in more fruit and I feel like consequences

do the same thing. So I guess I don't know if I would,

do you see a real differentiation between the two?

It's hard to tell cause it's such like depends on the situation,

but when we stick with the analogy,

the plant doesn't know the difference between punishing and pruning until

there's fruit. And I think there's times when we're in the middle of something,

maybe we are sorry, consequences and pruning.

And when we're in the middle of something, we may not know if it's consequences, punishment

or pruning until we get on the other side of it.

And I think one of the most powerful things we can do is when the dust settles on something

hard in our life is to look back, even though it can be hard, and look back and say, "Lord,

can you show me what you did there?"

And I think too many times we pray to get so quickly on the other side of hard times,

we don't ever consider if it's consequence, punishment, pruning, that we just never look

back.

there's so much value in looking back and what the Lord taught you in hard

times. And I think that when we do that enough, it gives us the ability in the

midst of hard times and trials to, you know, not be thankful for all

circumstances, but to remain thankful in them because he's at work there.

I think that's really true. I do think that we have a choice if we do

see like, "Hey, I've had a sinful...it's an overt sin," you know, anyone would say, "This

is a consequence of the sinful choice that I made." Let's just say there's some

very objective thing out there. I think it can still be, our response to that can

allow it to be more of a cultivation moment or a pruning for fruit moment or

it can be one that we turn away from the Lord and it doesn't really get

cultivated because we didn't respond to the initiative of the Lord to say I want

to cultivate you even in the brokenness. So it's like everything could be pruning

but if we don't allow the gardener in,

like that's where the plant analogy

kind of breaks down a little bit,

but if we don't allow him access and we just say,

nope, I'm not going to repent,

I'm not going to be teachable in this area,

then it's not gonna produce fruit,

even though maybe the Lord's intent is to take all things

and turn them for our good and his glory.

Yeah, I wonder, there can be,

and I don't know if this exactly applies,

but there may be a bit of a paradoxical thing going on here,

and I'm thinking of another place

paradox, which is where the text says that Jesus is led by the Holy Spirit

into the desert to be tempted by the devil. And you're like, "Uh, hold on. You

know, how does this work? The Holy Spirit led him to be tempted, and so

different scholars have wrestled with how does that work? How can we say the

Holy Spirit, who, you know, God does not tempt us, but is being led to be tempted?

It feels a little bit weird." And the interpretation of that that I'm most

favor is this idea that what God wants to do to train us is one side of

the coin, and the other side of the coin is what the devil wants to do to tempt

us. And so in any given situation, God is trying to train us, the devil's trying to

tempt us, and it's one in the same. And so to me, that

helps make sense of this idea of that particular text, "The Holy Spirit led

Jesus to be tempted." And similarly, and I'm not sure I'm gonna draw

this as cleanly as I'd like, but I just feel like there's a connection here somewhere of

where it's like God is pruning, there may be something that is not good in my life,

and I'm just going to mess up explaining this, but I'm certain there's a parallel there if

I thought about it.

There is a parallel to this that I am ready to tell you about.

Boom.

Okay, here we go.

So this is so funny you brought that up because we didn't talk about this beforehand, but

it was on my mind.

So my family, we always would start from seedlings inside with grow lights.

Some people go and buy plants and then just transplant them.

But we like to be in control of our soil and know what we're growing and everything.

So you put seeds in and then over time, they start to grow.

And so two months in, you look and these plants, let's say they're tomato plants, look like

they are ready to go outside.

In fact, their growth is starting to stunt a little bit inside and you would feel the

need to rush them out into a different environment.

But there's this, and usually first time gardeners, that's the mistake they make

is it looks ready.

So you rush it out where you think into an environment where it's going to thrive,

but that's actually the worst thing you can do for it.

So there's this term in, in planting and gardening called hardening off.

And the whole thing is like you take the plants outside in the environment that

is harsh to them because they've not,

they've been in our perfect conditions inside. So you take them out,

you put them in the sun for just a small window of time

to expose them slowly to what could damage them,

and then you bring them back inside for the night.

The next day, you take them out for even longer

and harden them off.

So basically, you're putting them out in short spurts

in what feels like damaging conditions

that's actually gonna set them up to thrive.

And so when the Holy Spirit sent Jesus into the wilderness,

he was hardening them off.

Nice. - Right there.

Suckers and hardening off.

I feel like I need to get a tomato plant now.

You do, we do.

That would be great too.

Let's do it.

We'd save a ton of money

'cause I go through enormous amounts of cherry tomatoes.

It's really remarkable.

Hey, there's something I wanted to kind of just

do a little bit of a riff on with you guys.

So one of the things that I really appreciated

about this message was thinking about,

okay, the text says that God wants to produce

this fruit in our lives and the emphasis is like

even more fruit, abundant fruit,

which is all really awesome.

But I got thinking, okay, so what exactly is the fruit?

And I think that there's one passage,

and we'll get to this in a second,

that comes to everybody's mind

when they think of this is the fruit.

But looking at the text, there are five areas

the Bible talks, five different aspects of life

where the Bible talks about spiritual fruit

or identifies something as spiritual fruit.

And so here's what I wanna do

is kind of like rapid fire with you guys.

I wanna say a kind of fruit,

and then I wanna ask,

Why does remaining or abiding in Jesus,

why should it lead to that fruit being produced

in a Christian's life, even in increasing measure over time?

So I don't think in the message we didn't do this,

we just listed the fruits, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

I'm asking what's the connection between

why does staying close to Jesus

end up resulting in this fruit?

So first fruit we looked at

was out of the book of Hebrews 13 to 15,

where it talks about offering God a sacrifice of praise,

Fruit of Lips that openly professes name, and it was this idea of having

growing passion for worship. What is it about staying close to Jesus that might

lead us to have growing passion for worship over time? I think it's the

longer you're walking with him, the better you know him, and he's so

incredible, the more you want to worship him. You know, it's similar in marriage,

the longer you're married in a healthy marriage, the more you love the

person, and worship is an expression of our love for the Lord. That's good, that's

good. All right, let me go to the next one. So the next one was actually the

classic fruit text, which is Galatians 5, "Fruit of the Spirit, Love, Joy, Peace,

Patience, Kindness." So we talked about just this is the fruit of Christlike

character, and I did batch this is actually probably fruit that comes up

the most in the New Testament in different ways. Sometimes it talks about

even in Hebrews 12 text about the harvest of righteousness, but generally the

language of righteousness, holiness, I called it Christlike character here.

Josh, why do you think a growing relationship with Jesus or proximity to

Jesus produces growing Christlike character? I just think that the more

that we're in proximity with Jesus, like the more I learn about myself, the more I

learn like my need and desire for Him, even just like when it comes to the

through the Spirit, the more that I choose

to do those things, even if I don't wanna be kind,

I'm gonna be kind, I don't wanna be patient,

I don't wanna be patient, the more that I do that,

even at times when I don't want to,

I just see the reward of it, and it just makes me

just even wanna just forfeit my ways,

once again realizing, all right, Lord, once again,

you're right, I was not.

I thought about this one with the Christlike

character piece, I think we all tend to mirror

the people that were around and you learn from them

and you watch how they respond and also partially

like just even what seems normal and natural,

you develop that sense for those things

based on contextual clues.

And I thought to myself, so the point being like attitudes

and even heart postures are at some level I think contagious

and I thought, you know, the more time I spend with Jesus

and watch him handle certain things

and it's really an intimate connection,

the more I just started going, oh yeah,

I like how he did it, you know,

and it just becomes like more of a natural way

of thinking and behaving.

Let me move on.

So another one we talked about was

out of Colossians 1, 9, and 10,

the idea of bearing fruit in every good work,

this idea of growing service to people.

Galatians 6, 10, let us do good to all people,

especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Why would staying close to Jesus lead to increasing,

not just desire, but the increasing practice

of serving people over time?

Go ahead.

I think it relates honestly to what you were just saying

about becoming, what you were both just saying

about becoming more like Jesus,

because as we were remaining with him,

we start to see people the way he does.

And we start to see someone who's struggling with a family

and think that family's just like my family,

and they need Jesus as much as I need Jesus.

It's not us versus them, or I've got it figured out

and they don't, I've got to see that person

the way the Lord does and his heart breaks

for those children and therefore mine does too.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, tag on.

Yeah, just with like the abiding,

like it's understandably so,

he put so much emphasis on like remaining in him,

but my goodness, like the way he remains like with us,

even through like some of our darkest moments,

our hardest times, and when I really reflect on

what he has hung in there with me through,

Like, how can I not hang in there with other people?

And when we believe that we carry his spirit,

like Christ's spirit inside of us,

then when we know that, like, man, the power

and the things that can happen when we run towards people,

no matter what's going on in our life,

when we, like the Bible talks about,

rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn.

And I think it draws the conclusion in the text

that also means everything in between.

So for me, it's just, yeah, it is remaining in him,

went, "Man, he's remained with me. How can I isolate myself from other people?"

Yeah, that's good. That's a great transition to the next fruit. This came out of Philippians

4 where Paul is talking about the church helping him in his places of need and his ministry

need and sending financial resources. They did that a couple of times, he says. And it's

interesting, he says, "Not that I seek a gift from you," but he goes, "I seek the fruit

that increases your credit.

He's literally talking about financial resources

when he identifies that as fruit.

So we talked about this idea that abiding with Jesus

results in over time growing kingdom generosity.

And I really like this point a lot

because I think it's super easy

because there is this concept of the tithe in the Bible

of taking our first 10% of our resources

which belong to God and specifically in a unique way

the first 10%, God says those are mine.

But sometimes people get stuck there.

They're like, boom, checked off the box.

I'm a tither now, done.

And I think it's cool that generosity is listed as a fruit.

And to me, and you guys may have more to add to this,

this really comes back to something you were just saying,

Josh, is I feel like over time,

the more you're in touch with the grace of God in your life,

first, obviously, the grace of salvation,

that he would give up his life for me on a cross

and sacrifice everything, not tithe,

but give his very best.

That is the fundamental and foundational act

of just incredible generosity and comprehensible generosity.

But then, even after I put my trust in Jesus,

even after all he's done, when I fall short,

when I sin, when I do something stupid,

that as I confess it, he continues to say,

"My grace is sufficient for you.

You're still my son, you still walk in love."

Well, the more you're used to experiencing that generosity

time after time again,

I think it starts to change your heart

and just helps you become a more generous person

and not just with regard to finances, but in general.

But I do think it's reflected in finances.

I think that you experience his generosity

and it makes you go, yeah, I wanna free up resources.

Any other thoughts on that, growing kingdom generosity?

Yeah, I just think the more that we abide in him,

the more we become about his business

and it's like kingdom business.

And just the 41 years I've lived in this world

and tithing for me, like when I first started going

to church, like it was difficult.

I grew up with parents who were, or grandparents who,

you know, came from the dust bowl

and then my parents weren't very well off.

And so it was wild to me at first to like, we give so much.

I mean, there's taxes that come out

and then we gotta give even more off the top.

And just the longer I've lived though,

when I consider the return of investment

of earthly things versus kingdom things,

it's like, man, kingdom things are just so eternal.

And I just wanna be about that business.

Yeah, that's good.

And I don't get there unless I'm abiding.

Yeah, that's good.

The final fruit that we talked about

that the scriptures identify as a fruit

was when Paul in Romans one is talking about

the fruit of evangelism,

the fruit of sharing the gospel with people

and seeing new life spiritually result.

And so we talked about this idea that one of the fruits

of abiding in Christ, of staying close to Jesus,

ought to be in our lives,

that we have a growing evangelistic impact.

I said impact, and we talked about as impact,

because I felt like it's easy to say burden

or things that are super feelings-oriented.

And I'm like, man, that's important.

The feelings, the heart has to be there,

but it also has to transition or translate into action.

But help me guys, if you had to suppose

why staying close to Jesus results

in growing evangelistic impact, any thoughts?

Man, I just think that when you've encountered

a good father and a savior, you want everybody to have that.

And so it's stepping into opportunities,

it's asking to be stretched, it's being intentional,

and casting the seed and praying that people will receive it.

You know, I think it's just a natural, again, it's a natural outflow. And what I love about all of this,

it's the Lord and His goodness that's flowing into the branches. And so the more we're remaining,

the more we just become who we're meant to be, and we reflect His image. We're made in His image.

Yeah, and people love to share, right? We share stories, we share favorite recipes, we share our

favorite moments of experiences and games, and all that pales in comparison to like what Jesus

has done for us. And when I daily commune with God and I just realize my brokenness,

but that he was willing to come and not just save me, but put me on a path of life that

I never could have gotten myself to, when we truly understand what we have in Christ,

how can we keep that to ourselves? And I don't think you can reflect on that long enough

unless you're abiding. And when you're daily connected and even just praying without ceasing

throughout the day, just knowing you have a good God who's listening, who's speaking.

How can you keep that to yourself?

It doesn't make sense.

It almost makes you...

You're saying that just...

You're right, when something really good happens, we want to share it.

And examples all the time are you go to a great restaurant or see a great movie and

you cannot wait to tell whomever about it.

You're like, "Oh my gosh, this place is gonna blow your mind."

And so it's almost like if we can keep the gospel to ourselves, it really begs a bigger

question on how much the gospel is currently real and relevant to our hearts.

Because it just feels like it's almost impossible to keep the good stuff in.

Oh my gosh, my life is being changed by a relationship with Jesus, but I'm not gonna

tell anybody about it.

That just feels so contrary to human nature on any other place.

So maybe that's where for anybody who might be feeling, "I'm not seeing the fruit.

man, we gotta get rerouted in the gospel.

Yeah, and even for people who feel like,

well, I just don't know what I would say,

just tell people what he's done for you.

Like we all know what he's done for us

and we don't have to with evangelism feel like

it's our responsibility to convict that person.

It's our responsibility to know like our impact is made

by just being willing vessels and just saying like,

can I just tell you what the Lord has done for me?

And some of the most profound evangelistic conversations

I've had had nothing to do with how I was trying to tell

a person the Lord can work in their life.

It's just me sharing how the Lord has worked in mine.

And that's what they needed to hear.

Because these people usually know us and trust us.

We've earned the right to say what we're gonna say.

And just, I don't know.

It's the whole story of the blind man who was healed

and he was questioned and he said,

"Look, all I know is I was blind and now I can see."

So we can just tell our story.

Yeah, and it would be funny though if you were that guy

and you're like, "I was blind and now I can see,

but I'm not gonna tell anybody."

I mean, that's just like incomprehensible

that you would ever do that.

>> Well, see, even go back to the whole idea

of the vine and the branches and to produce much fruit,

the fruit isn't there for the purpose of the branch.

It's got something that it's trying to provide,

like nourishment and maybe it's beauty,

but it has a purpose, it's for others.

>> Yeah, that's good.

I wanna end on just one theme in the text

that is pretty difficult.

And I'll just say a few things and then invite you guys

to add if you want to add anything on top.

But Jesus does talk about the branches

that do not produce fruit being cut off and burned.

And I think we really need to feel

the gravity of that statement.

He is talking about eternity here.

This is not, you know, these aren't all just

funny little gardening pictures.

And I really, I just spent a lot of time

when I was thinking about John 15,

thinking about how do you end up being one of those branches

and what should you do if you may be one of those branches?

It seems to me, like in Matthew 23,

where Jesus, he's got religious people coming to him

at Judgment Day, and as Jesus tells it,

as a parable of sorts and says, they're like,

we're ready to get into heaven,

and he's like, I never knew you.

Or John 5, where it says the Pharisees in particular

know their Bibles back and front.

Read them, study them, take them very seriously.

And it's clear they're not coming to Jesus for life.

And I think that if anybody,

and this actually happened with the Pharisees and Jesus,

if anybody would have said, hey,

I think you've got some big questions to ask.

They'd be like, no, we're on the inside, we're good.

No, like the Jews would say, no, our father's Abraham.

That's straight out of scripture.

You know, that we've got the membership card.

Let me show you my card, we're good.

And it really puts fear and trepidation in me

for Christians in general, for American believers,

or at least Americans who think they're believers.

because I feel like there would be a whole lot of people

who would say to Jesus, "Oh no, yeah,

"I'm one of the branches, I'm good."

And like, they're gonna miss the fact that they're fruitless

and I guess I just, man, it's really important,

I feel like, to go, if you don't see fruit,

that's a really, really important thing

to pay attention to.

And God is, He's a good, loving gardener

and He wants you connected to Jesus.

And all we have to do is say, "God, I'm sorry,

"but there's just not fruit here,"

and really turn from whatever path we're on

and say, "I'm turning towards Jesus,

"and I just know he receives us back in grace."

That's the testimony of what the cross accomplished.

And so I really, I feel like it's important for people,

A, to be super sober about,

"Okay, are these fruits present and growing in my life?

"And if not, do I need to ask some

"maybe scary, uncomfortable questions?"

But even if that's the case,

not getting stuck in a place of judgment

or feeling, I don't know, self-pity even

about lack of fruit, but rather just turning to the gardener

and saying, "Oh, can I be the vine?

"I wanna produce fruit."

Turning to Jesus for life.

And that's the action step we need to take

if we're not seeing fruitfulness.

Anything you guys wanna add on that subject?

Something that's coming to my mind,

I think it's 2 Timothy talks about

pretty significant warning and caution

for people who have the appearance of a godliness,

but they're not actually godly.

And I think, to your point, this is really serious

to think about, and I find myself in this caution here

because I remember as a teenager sitting in church

and that verse that you talked about,

and the pastor said, "I never knew you,"

and I thought, that's a little bit uncomfortable right now

because I feel like I'm identifying with not being known,

but I've been raised in the church,

I have a strong Christian family,

I was part of the youth group,

I was doing all the things

that I thought I was supposed to do,

and this is where it ultimately comes back to,

like, yes, we're made to produce much fruit,

we have to look for the fruit,

but we are not the manufacturers of it.

It comes from the vine, it comes from the Lord,

it comes from connectedness with him.

And I just would wanna say to anyone

has a little bit of a catch, like, "Is that me?" Don't brush that aside. Ask God and just say,

"Is this me?" And don't be afraid to say, "I think I've missed it, and I've been doing all

this religious activity, but I actually don't have a personal relationship with the Savior."

And it's okay to admit that. It doesn't matter if you've been in church all your life,

if you've been doing all the things, I think especially just, I'm going to call it out in

West Michigan, we have a lot of people who look pretty good and that doesn't mean that you know

Jesus. And so don't be afraid to just say like, "Lord, I don't think I know you." And tell him,

and he's so good to say like, "I want to know you. I'm pursuing you." And he'll find you in it.

That's good.

Yeah. For me, just repentance comes to mind. Like I've been on this kind of blazing a path

with anyone I can of just how repentance is a beautiful word, because on the other side of

repentance is grace that we couldn't earn, we don't deserve. But for anybody, I agree with

everything you said, but the only thing I would add is for anybody who is sitting there feeling

like, "I'm not producing fruit. I don't know what to do." If you just, like you said, ask,

but I'd also encourage you to sit with this thought that the Lord of lords and the King of

of Kings, the creator of all who knows everything about you, knows every thought you have,

wants to be with you.

And if you just sit and think about that long enough, it's going to solve a lot of your

problems.

Yeah, that's good.

It's a good word to end on.

I think that also your point about the idea of seeing repentance as a good word, even

the word pruning, which we typically look at as such a negative word.

We really, we need to take all these words that sometimes feel like they cause us to

go "ugh," and just remember who the one speaking them is.

He's so kind.

He's so kind, and everything he has for us is good.

And it really is, it's like in Hebrews 12 where it says, "No discipline is pleasant

at the time, but painful, yet later it produces a harvest of righteousness."

And we just gotta tell ourselves on these difficult places, confession, repentance,

discipline, all of these things. What Jesus, the end of that

sentence on every one of those words is life, life, life, life, and fruit. So great

talking with you guys today about John 15. This is an incredible

conversation. I feel humbled by the, I was gonna say planetary knowledge,

but now I'm in the solar system. Humble yourself some more. The planet, the

The plan, plant, there we go,

I gotta get the word sooner or later.

The information and knowledge you guys have,

it's been awesome hanging,

and I know this is gonna be encouraging to many,

so thanks.

Yep.

Thanks for having us.

I hope you enjoyed that great conversation

about gourds, plants, fruit bearing, and Jesus.

And if you did enjoy it, please rate and review us.

That, again, is such a massive encouragement to our team.

This has been a production of Engedi Church.

We have more incredible conversations on the way.

And so, until we meet next time,

God made you to advance.