It's knowing the shepherd's voice and testing that voice as well and knowing what delights the Lord,

what is his characteristics. Is this thing that he's asking me to do, is it in line with the

scriptures? Is it in line with his character? The way I've just seen the Holy Spirit work in my

life is just that trust that you're going to put me in front of the people I need to be in front of,

you're going to take me to places I need to go, and none of that is by accident. It's holy guidance

Lord, like, let me not quench your spirit.

Like, let me not like tolerate the sin that's inside of me.

And so like, I think for me,

it's been really a challenge, like just the everyday,

like what is the Holy Spirit leading me to?

What is he wanting me to do?

This is the Made to Advance Podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you

for your best future.

Well, welcome everybody.

It's so good to be with you after my summer break

and it's good to be back in the studio

and we do have an incredible conversation coming up.

But I need to say before we get to that great conversation

that if you wanna help us out and encourage us,

please like, comment and subscribe to the podcast.

That really lets our team know

that what we're doing here at Made to Advance

is an encouragement to you.

And it also helps us get the word out

to more people about the pod.

So I'm excited though.

We got a good conversation coming

because today I have the esteemed guests,

Josh Haltom, who is Getty's pastor over Community Life

and Tiana Armijo, formerly Reynolds, now Armijo,

who works on our kids team

and is also one of our lead worship leaders

and songwriters with the Getty Music.

So welcome to you all.

It's good to have you here.

Thank you.

It's good to be here.

And you're in the newly refurbished Made to Advance studio.

Come on.

Wow.

Come on.

It's beautiful.

It's clean.

(laughing)

Does it, if you were in here before,

it was like super white and light,

and now it's super dark.

I like it.

Yeah, it's a whole different mood.

You think it's gonna be okay?

I like it. I think it looks good.

Yeah?

Yeah, coming back from sabbatical,

new man, new studio.

(laughing)

Brand new man.

I think it's great.

(laughing)

I can't wait to watch the video

and see what these little LED strips look like.

I know, 'cause these LED strips are a nice touch.

I like them.

Yeah, so we'll see,

but we get to break it in today.

And I've been looking forward to hanging out with you guys

because we're in this whole conversation on Sundays

about the Holy Spirit.

And so I was like, who are two people I know

who really love, appreciate, and walk with the Holy Spirit?

And so you guys are who came to mind.

So here we are, and that's gonna be great.

What we're gonna do today is just like talk about questions

that maybe we've heard people ask us

or we've asked ourselves.

and we're just gonna kind of throw those on the table.

It's really, in some ways, a continuation

of the conversation that we're having on the weekend.

And then we're just gonna jump in

and share our own experiences and background

and perspective in the hopes that this conversation

can help others who are like us saying,

I want more of the Holy Spirit.

So that's the agenda.

So who wants to get us going on a question

or something we can wrestle with today?

I'd say, anytime I talk about the Holy Spirit,

I just think it's worth taking this step back

and realizing that in this world of faith,

like we're living at the most exciting times.

You know, we don't have to enter into a temple

to be close to the Lord.

We don't have to follow fire, a cloud.

We're not even waiting for the Savior.

Like literally Jesus said,

"Because I'm leaving, something even greater is coming."

And I just think anytime we talk about the Holy Spirit,

just that awareness that everyone in biblical history before us wished they could have the

Lord within us.

And just stepping back and just saying, "I cannot believe how fortunate we are to live

when we do."

But it also breaks my heart because I think a lot of people look at the Trinity as Father,

Son, and Holy Bible instead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and they're just not tapping

into that power that the Lord says is available.

So I just think anytime we talk about the Holy Spirit,

it's just worth saying, Lord, thank you

that we get to live at a time with such high expectation.

It's just unbelievably blessed to be living where we are.

That's good.

I'm curious to hear you guys' perspective.

I had this phrase when I was talking about it recently

of like, hey, our life isn't supposed to be a copy and paste

day after day, but it's like this holy adventure

with the Holy Spirit.

When you guys think about what it looks like

for you to interact with the Holy Spirit

on just day-to-day basis, what's that look like?

and you could talk about in general,

but also if there's like a story or an example,

we'd love to hear it.

Got something for us?

Man, oh man, I think, I just,

well, I think back of the first time

I ever experienced the Holy Spirit.

And I grew up in the church,

and I went to super small Christian school growing up,

and so it was very spirit-led.

And I think about just the first time

that I experienced the Holy Spirit,

which was when I was 10 years old,

and we were playing Shekinah Glory,

which is a really deep cut.

I don't know what happened,

but it felt like a holy wind came in.

And as a 10 year old, I was like, "Whoa, this is crazy.

I can't believe what I'm experiencing."

And even at that time,

I couldn't comprehend what it was really.

And I think just for me,

experiencing the Holy Spirit is something

that's daily surrender and daily waking up in the morning

and just asking the Lord, "What do you want me to do?

What do you want me to do?"

It's a surrender.

And I think the Holy Spirit to me,

The Holy Spirit has always been a friend to me.

I feel like that's the relationship I've felt

with the Holy Spirit.

And I love what you said, Josh, of it's such a majesty,

it's such a crazy thing to concept

that not only is the Holy Spirit a friend,

an advocate, a helper, but it's actually the Spirit of God

that gets to dwell in us.

And we get to act in power of the Holy Spirit.

And so I think practically for me,

I think it's been interesting to allow the Holy Spirit

to move me and allow, and I think for me,

in the context of worship, I think a lot of times,

we take it a lot upon ourselves.

And I think I've had to learn what the Holy Spirit

and allowing the Holy Spirit to move in me

is literally just letting go of myself,

letting go of myself.

And something that I loved that you were talking about was,

I think in First Thessalonians,

you talked about this in your teaching,

it was about quenching the Holy Spirit

because you're tolerating sin.

And I think about just on the everyday, I can struggle with pride and that's a sin.

And I'm literally waking up in the morning and I'm saying, "Lord, let me not quench

your spirit.

Let me not tolerate the sin that's inside of me."

And so I think for me, it's been really a challenge just the everyday, what is the Holy

Spirit leading me to?

What is he wanting me to do?

And even recently, the Holy Spirit told me a word.

He was like, "I want you to take risks."

And he was even coming on this podcast, I was very nervous.

And I was like, but then the Lord...

The Holy Spirit was teeing me up for this moment right here.

Yes, exactly.

And he was like, "No, Tianna, take risks."

And I was like, "Okay."

I was like, "I'll do that for you, Lord."

And I don't know what that looks like right now, but it's a surrender.

I'm surrendering what I think it looks like, what I think that means.

And I'm like, "Okay, Lord, here's my life, and I don't wanna quench anything.

I don't wanna quench your spirit in my life."

And so no matter what I think it looks like, no matter what move of God I think is stuck

in my head or I see on social media, I want to see the things that he sees break.

Just allow my heart to break for what breaks his.

It's like, what does that look like every day?

And so I think that's very much a broad thing, but it's like...

Yeah, no, that's good.

I think that when you start with that posture of surrender, it really puts you in a place

where the Holy Spirit can speak to you.

is if you're like, this is something Christina

has been sharing a little bit is she's so locked down

with like, I got a plan, this is what I want it to go

and it's gonna be efficient.

And the Holy Spirit is not always efficient.

And so, you know, she's really been having to say,

I'm surrendering the sense of this is exactly

how my day is gonna go.

We were going to buy, well, actually,

we're just walking downtown the other day.

And she's like, hey, you needed shoes.

And I did not feel like doing shopping shopping.

Sometimes you just wanna walk

I wanna get all up in it, you know?

And then she's like,

oh, and we're gonna try some new running shoes.

And 'cause I've been running with the same shoes

for like a zillion years.

I just keep switching out new pairs.

And so we go into the store and she's been praying like,

God, would you give us just cool opportunities

to have conversations with people

who are far from you in particular?

And I'm already like grumpy that we're in this store.

And so all of a sudden though,

the dude starts talking to us

and asking about our background

and we start connecting about spiritual things

all this. And like in the flesh, I have no interest in having a conversation right then

whatsoever. But it was like, I could just tell through, I mean, I felt like the Spirit

was saying, "Hey, this is what you've been praying for, and I'm putting it right on your

doorstep. And now you've got to ask yourself the question of this wasn't your timing or

your plan. You didn't say, "Hey, at like 3 p.m. at the certain store, I wanna have a time

It's like, but I'm doing it right now. And I had to say, "Am I gonna surrender or

not?" Which I did, but it took me a few minutes. Christina was much faster in that moment.

How about you, Josh? Any ways that when you think of like how those

you experience the Holy Spirit just on the day-to-day, what's that look like?

Yeah, so I'd say that the Holy Spirit has really done two things. One, it is like

stretching, because like growing your faith is stretching, and obedience at

time is very difficult. But also just in the day-to-day relation to the Holy

Spirit, it just like takes this pressure off to just, you know, in the morning,

just like, "Lord, like, I trust you." Just like, Spirit guide me. Like, even when I

get up in the morning and run, like, I don't know what route I'm gonna take. And

it's just fun with the Holy Spirit. Like, my wife will watch me run down a road

and I'll just hang a right. And I'm like, "I don't know. Like, the Lord told me to go down here

and pray for these houses as I'm running." And I just don't know where I'm gonna end up. But

recently I had the opportunity to sit with some young adults who were

wondering, you know, where does the Holy Spirit kind of interact with, like, your

day-to-day life and I gave him this analogy

which is gonna make me say something I thought

I'd never say but like, back in my day,

I understand we've got like multiple generations

represented here, like if I wanted to,

like when I was dating my wife, Julie, at the time,

she lived in Maryland, I lived in Indiana,

12 hour drive, 632 miles, so if I wanted to go visit her,

like I didn't have Waze or Google Maps,

I'd have to go to this place called MapQuest.com

and it would print off like a scroll.

Do you even know MapQuest, Keanu?

I do, you guys.

You're nodding like you've got

I do, I remember printing out all the, yeah, absolutely.

I was like five.

Oh, thank you for that.

She just had to like

She's on her lily pad.

Put it in right there, yeah.

I know how my lily pad is, thank you.

But to get to like

You were saying, old man, what was that?

Yes, old man.

To get from like where I was to where I needed to be,

like you would have this like scroll of like,

but if I missed one turn, right?

If I made a mistake halfway through the journey,

let's say I'm in Ohio, like I'm in trouble

'cause it's just me

and like no geographical confidence whatsoever.

A mistake would just throw me off the rails.

And so many people think the way the Holy Spirit

and God's plan in your life, that's how it works.

Like you make one mistake, one wrong turn.

And I explained to this group of young adults that,

no, like when you think of like Google Maps,

Apple Maps, Waze, whatever it is,

like the Holy Spirit's more like that, right?

So if I was going from Indiana to like Maryland

see my wife today. Like, I can make wrong mistakes, like wrong turns, make mistakes,

and what's my phone gonna do, like, immediately? It's like, oh, like rerouting.

Like we're still gonna--you keep trusting me, you can make mistakes, I'm still gonna

get you where you want me to be. And I feel like people need to hear the Holy

Spirit's more like that. It's not--like the Lord's not this, like, you know,

cross-arms Sky Daddy who's just waiting for you to get it wrong. Like, the Holy

Spirit is a reflection of the Father, and it's just kind and guiding. And I've

learned just in my life, especially over the past couple years, it's just like, man,

just lean in every day. Just like be open to the Spirit, and like the

conversations will happen. You'll get where you need to go. Is life always

gonna be easy? No. But is it sanctification? Absolutely. And so the way

I've just seen the Holy Spirit work in my life is just that trust that like,

you're gonna put me in front of the people I need to be in front of, you're

You're gonna take me to places I need to go.

And none of that is by accident.

It's holy guidance and direction.

And honestly, like it makes every day so much just fun.

I'm just like, I don't know what you're gonna get me into.

And I've got some stories of stuff that's happened recently

where it's like, I'm like, Holy Spirit,

if I were you, like, I'd help me now.

'Cause I have no idea what to say.

And you just listen to that small voice

and it just, it sends you a direction.

it sends you, you just see the power come through in a way that you're like, "Lord,

that was not me."

But I'd be curious for you guys, you know, when it comes to like hearing from the Holy

Spirit, because so many people do wrestle with, like you mentioned, your flesh, and

like, "Okay, like the Holy Spirit speaks to me, I believe.

How do I discern, is this what I want to do?

My thoughts, my feelings, my flesh?"

Or even when we seek like godly counsel, like older, wiser people in our life, and they

speak to us. Like, the Holy Spirit still needs opportunity to trump that, and so how do you

even weigh your own thoughts, your own feelings, other people's input with what you think you're

hearing from the Holy Spirit? So like, how do you guys discern?

I think only a mind as fine as Tiana's should start with that.

I don't take risks, Tiana.

And should lead off on that.

I'll take risks. Man, like, I love this topic. I think like, when I was just praying about

I think the Lord brought me to like John 10.

It talks about us knowing like him being the shepherd

and us knowing his voice, a sheep knowing his voice.

And we literally were just in small group last night.

And a person in our small group asked like,

"How do I stay like attuned to the Holy Spirit?"

And I was like, "Ooh, that's a good question."

And the way that I look at it a lot of times

is knowing the Lord's voice.

And a lot of times when I think about my relationship

with God, I think of it as a relationship

with another person.

And I think about when you're staying attuned to someone,

you're checking in with them, you're knowing their voice,

you're familiar with them.

And the way that we can be familiar with God's voice

is knowing his word and knowing his voice.

And so with following the Holy Spirit,

I think it's so interesting because I think

we do tend to think that it's our own voice.

And I think sometimes I really do think that's the enemy

trying to sway us and be like, "No, doubt yourself,

doubt yourself, doubt yourself.

And it's like, I feel like for me,

I've had such a burden on my heart that like,

man, we are living in the end times,

we are in such a dire time in our lives

where it's like, we don't even have time

to even just think about, oh, what if it's just me

or it's something selfish,

but it's knowing the shepherd's voice

and testing that voice as well

and knowing what delights the Lord,

what is his characteristics?

Is this thing that he's asking me to do,

is it in line with the scriptures?

Is it in line with his character?

Is it, will it produce fruit?

Like, you know, like the fruit of the spirit,

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness.

Like, is this something that he's calling me to?

To like, like it talks about in Matthew 28,

I think of like, baptize those in the nation

or baptize all in the nations, baptizing them

in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,

going to all the nations.

But it's like, I think like for me,

like those are the things that help me

to just get out of my own head and be like, is this like,

I think about like this time where me and my husband

in Chicago and we were eating at a breakfast place and I saw a man who was clearly didn't

have a home and I was like, "Oh, I feel like a pressing on the Lord that I need to go.

We need to leave and we need to go bring him food."

We were just sitting in the restaurant just having a great time and I remember doubting

that and being like, "Huh, maybe it's just my own mercy.

Maybe I just see him and I'm like, you know, like it's not necessarily a prompting from

God.

But I remember like regretting not doing it and being like, that was the Lord's voice.

Like I'm sure of it.

And because it would produce the fruit of the Spirit of like doing something like that.

That's what he's calling us to.

And so it's really interesting to just think about like that the Lord does want to speak

to you and he is speaking to you and being attuned to his voice and knowing who he is

and being his sheep, and then being like, "Okay, I know that this is something that

the Lord's calling me to because this is what it says in the scriptures. This is what I've seen

him do in the past." And so that's how I think of it and just kind of discern, "Is it just me?

Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it God?" Yeah, I'd say similar things. I mean, I think that when you're

rooted in the word, then you already have a foundation for... It's like you've heard him

talk a lot, so obviously that makes it so much easier to recognize his voice. And not just like,

on the one hand, yes, the actual kinds of things he says, for sure, but also almost,

and this is gonna sound a little bit, I don't even know how to say it exactly, but like,

I don't know the feeling of hearing his voice. That's a whole different side of it, not just the

words he says, like if I feel a prompting that's in agreement with something I've read in the Bible,

I'm like, "Oh, that jives with what God has said." But there's also something about just the

subjective experience of, I've been in His presence in the Word, and when I'm hearing this, it feels

like that, that's helpful to me. I think that on the one hand, I wanna be like, when people are

feeling these tensions, man, there's always an element of faith, and I think we wanna like,

we want to get the faith part out of it, so we can just go, "No, I'm absolutely 100% sure."

And I think that I don't... Maybe there's times where 100%, but I think that there's always,

and it's a good thing, there's always an element of, "I actually do have to still trust here. I

have to step out on the water." And so that's a thing for me. I think, like you're saying,

knowing his voice doesn't align with it. But I do think, like a prompting, I do think that

there are times where like, let's say it's going into the store or whatever, that it's not,

this isn't about, does he teach me to go walk into that store or not? And I think those times,

you just over time get used to, that feels like something from the Lord, partially because

that would not be something I would do right now.

It's a thought I would not have had.

It's an act of kindness that I would not give on my own.

Where did that come from?

Because that just doesn't feel like how I flow normally.

And anytime that feels like a little bit of a,

oh, I'm gonna walk out and hang with somebody

that is homeless or whatever, it's like,

yeah, that's not just what I do day to day.

So I don't know, what do you think, Josh?

What do you have, stuff you'd add?

Yeah, I think one thing that I've learned is especially, you know, when it comes to

feeling like, "Holy Spirit, is this you?" is just giving adequate space to affirm that.

Prayer, fasting, just for me, it's like going on a long walk and just like, "Lord, I'm listening.

Like, can you confirm this?" You know, I think about some of the people that I sought wisdom for,

my grandfather who's passed away, any time that I felt like I had to make a decision,

out of respect for His wisdom, I would seek out time and space to hear from Him. And I just think,

how much more should I with the Holy Spirit? And that helps me to really discern between my flesh.

Because like you're saying, I'll usually walk away with thoughts that are not my thoughts,

or feelings are not my feelings. And I love what both of you said about diving into the Word too,

because just like getting to know the Father's voice and like, is this something that He would

say. As you guys know, my wife homeschools our children, which, fruit of

the spirit, patience beyond all measure. She gets asked 47,000 questions a day.

And recently we had two fun experiences where my wife was like, "Yeah, our kids

were like off in the room, like quiet together." Which like, on one hand as like

a parent, you're like, "What's going on?" And you're like, "I don't

care. It's silent for just a little bit." And like they came out and they're like,

"Mom, we want pets."

And she's like, "Okay."

Ezra's like, "I want a Komodo dragon."

Judah's like, "I want a snake."

Evelyn's like, "I want a dog."

And my wife is like, "What would your father say?"

Without talking to me, they walked away going, "Ugh."

(laughing)

But then there's another situation where they come out

and it's like two in the afternoon,

they're all dressed in their beach clothes.

And I think our kids still think we're on vacation

'cause they wanna go, they don't know,

I don't think they realize that we live here.

They wanna go all the time.

And they walk out, "Mom, we got an idea.

"Can we go to the beach when daddy gets off work

"and then go to Captain Sunday and get some ice cream?"

And she's like, "What do you think your father would say?"

And they were like, "Yeah," and went nuts, right?

Because they know my character

through spending time with me,

so they know what I would say yes to, what I'd say no to.

And when I think about the Holy Spirit

and diving into God's word, it's like,

you can clearly know when you're spending time

in God's word, that feels like something.

something he would say, and that has helped me just immensely.

Let me flip this.

I think this is all super helpful for hearing the Holy Spirit.

We would all say, I think, that learning His voice is a journey, and you just get better

with it over time.

So here's the question I wanna ask.

Do you have a time that comes to mind where you thought you heard the Holy Spirit, and

afterwards, you were like, "Yeah, I'm not so sure that that was actually the Holy Spirit

that I heard. You know, anything come to mind, any good story?

I have one where I clearly heard the Holy Spirit, saw that's exactly what would happen

if the Holy Spirit gave me a word, and I don't know what happened, and then like, I was delayed

in hearing it, or I fumbled the ball real bad and was like, "Holy Spirit, it's the same

person. Like, what? What happened there?" We had a situation here in Getty just a couple

weeks ago, I don't know if both of you know this story, but I was in a meeting out in

the lobby and next thing I know there's a guy who comes through the doors and

he's holding a piece of paper and I mean he is like hot red mad and starts, I

mean, in one of our employees faces yelling at him and so I get up and like

ministry here we go, you know, and so I go over there and next thing you know

like, you know, Ngeti sits in kind of a plaza so we're walking like down there

and this this guy's like, I mean, violently angry looking at us, like

threatening us, and so we get down to a neighboring store and this dude is

just angry, and I'd realized that like he was homeless, and somebody not connected

to our church had told him he can't be around here, and he was just trying to

figure out who it was, and he's angry, angry, angry. And I had read Mark, I believe, 10

that morning when Jesus goes up to a blind man and says like, "What do you need

the Lord to do for you?" And so as this dude is just like lunging at us, angry,

mad, I'm like, "Holy Spirit, like if I were you, I would probably help me now."

And so Holy Spirit just clearly thought

that's not my thought was like,

was straight in my ear was,

ask him what he wants the Lord to do.

And so I'm like, here we go.

So I'm like, hey, first thing I've said to him,

hey, what do you need the Lord to do for you?

Kind of looks at me, he's like, what?

Goes back to yelling, I was like, say it again.

What do you need the Lord to do for you?

Kind of softens a little bit.

And then I'm like, hey, can we step outside?

'cause I wanna talk to you about what the Lord,

what you need the Lord to do for you."

And he's like, "Yeah."

So he's outside, I'm like,

and the Holy Spirit's like, "Put your hands on him."

And I'm like, "This is not a good idea."

And I was like, "Can I put my hands on you?"

He's like, "Yeah."

I was like, "Can I pray over you?"

He's like, "Yeah."

And in the prayer, he breaks.

And this man who I thought could harm me

literally three minutes ago, grown man sobbing in my arms.

And we've been able to stay in contact,

but then that same situation,

I had felt like the Lord was nudging me

to do something for him.

Told a Holy Spirit thing,

he had, he's trying to get his head above water financially,

get back on his feet for his three girls,

and he needed a piece of equipment for his business fixed.

And I felt like the Holy Spirit was maybe like nudging me

like that direction.

And I just kept like delaying, delaying, delaying.

And finally, after our staff prayer on Monday,

where I just sat with your son, I was just like,

I need to repent of like my inaction.

I reached out to this guy and I was just like,

hey, how's it going?

And what's the situation with your air compressor?

Like, I feel like the Lord's calling me and he's like,

hey, I really appreciate it, but like,

I couldn't get it fixed, and so I sold everything,

like, I'm giving up, I'm done.

And I was just like,

so it wasn't like maybe like a misfire of the Holy Spirit,

it was a, the Holy Spirit set me up for success,

and my flesh completely like delayed the impact.

And I know the Lord's gonna use that like in my future

to be like, all right, like, what'd you,

You know, it's like a good father.

What'd you learn from this boy?

You know? - Yeah, totally.

But yeah, it was this moment where it was like

the Holy Spirit did a wild, wonderful thing

in just giving me one sentence that broke this man's fury.

And then he set me up with another that I completely missed.

And I'm just like, ah, man.

It's good to talk about those

because for people who are listening and they're like,

man, I really am intrigued by this whole conversation

about what's it look like to interact with

and depend on the Holy Spirit more.

It's just good for people to hear,

hey, we miss it sometimes.

And that's okay, that's part of the journey.

When you were thinking about today, Tiana,

was there anything particular that you were like,

oh, I wanna put this on the table

to talk about or to share?

It was funny, it was just a question that you posed

of just talking about whether you know it's your voice

or it's the Holy Spirit's voice.

So it really, when I was thinking about this topic,

I was thinking about, 'cause the spirit of God,

like the Holy Spirit is such,

honestly if we think about it, it's such a wide thing.

You could talk about so many things.

I was like, oh my gosh, where do I even start?

I was like, that's so wild.

But I think for my generation,

a lot of what has shaped us is what we think

a move of the Spirit looks like,

or what the Holy Spirit moving looks like.

And I was just talking with my friend Rebecca about this,

And like a lot of times we have a misunderstanding

and an expectation of what the Holy Spirit

is supposed to look like.

We see things on social media and we're like,

oh, that's a move of God.

Oh, this is a move of God.

This is when the Holy Spirit is moving.

And we can completely miss like

what the Holy Spirit is doing in us

and like what the Holy Spirit is doing

on this smaller scale, you know?

And like, I just think about, I really wanted,

I actually had a prompting to read Romans 8

because I think it just really, just basically,

it's literally called life through the spirit.

And I feel like even just preparing for this,

I felt such a prompting of telling,

not even just my generation, but our entire generation,

that a move of God is a move of God

and it doesn't have to look like this certain thing.

And it's like, 'cause I think we,

I just saw a video on Instagram,

'cause social media has completely overtaken

all of our generation.

And I saw this video of a country in Africa

who they are getting persecuted and killed.

And this woman, she's just on the ground,

crying out to God, quoting scripture.

And that's what a move of God is looking like there.

It's so interesting to me.

And I was thinking, I didn't know how to add this in,

but I just really wanted to read Romans 8,

which is life through the spirit.

And I'm gonna start at verse five.

And it's really just like, it's like this kind of answers more just goes on of the question

of like, how do we determine like, what is something that we think, you know, like our

minds can get so much in the way of like, well, doesn't look like this.

So must not be like significant to the Lord or like, so I wanted to read Romans 8, 5.

It says, "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh

desires, but those who live in accordance with the spirit have their minds set on what

the spirit desires.

The mind governed by the flesh is death,

but the mind governed by the spirit is life and peace.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God.

It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

And I think when we set our minds on what the mind of Christ,

when we give ourselves a mind of Christ,

it feels like it welcomes a whole host of things

that the Lord can do through you,

'cause we don't just have the Holy Spirit

as just this separate thing that,

it is a gift that the Lord gave us,

but it's also something that's working in us,

like I said earlier,

and it just, it opens up a plethora of things

that you can do, and a plethora of what we think

that a move of God looks like, you know?

And like-- - Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, it just, it feels like it's,

we often limit ourselves on what God can do,

what the Holy Spirit can do through us,

when, and even I think about what you just said,

of like, that was a move of God,

that you going to that man and talking to him

and allowing the Holy Spirit to move through you,

but some people can count that as insignificant.

And it's like, that's not insignificant.

It may not be shown, but yeah.

That's such a good point, 'cause you're right.

I mean, I think when we think of,

like we'll see stuff come on social

of 4,000 people were baptized,

or this many whatever happened at some college campus,

and it's like, man, the Spirit is moving.

But I remember when we were talking once about Pentecost,

and what happens there is the Holy Spirit descends,

and then the people are speaking in these languages

that they did not previously know.

And rather than sit there and focus on the

speaking these languages part,

I said, what I want us to really take away from this moment

is the people are doing something

they could not previously do,

but now they are doing because of the Holy Spirit.

And so back to your example of this lady

who's experiencing persecution,

but you said she was reciting scripture at the time?

So that would be a great example to me of,

there's gonna be probably no big necessarily

social media post or news story or whatever.

But to do that, the Holy Spirit is working in her

a powerful way.

I think of times when we were parenting

and like any parent knows that when you're raising

younger kids, sometimes it's a joy

and sometimes you find yourself reverting to being a child

when you're a kid. - Completely.

You're just like I am, they're literally pulling me

into my absolute worst self right now.

But there'd be times, and I have plenty of memories

of like, oh man, I said the wrong thing,

I responded the wrong way, whatever.

But there'd be times where the kids would,

one kid or the group of them for that matter,

would be operating in the most frustrating,

like infuriating way, and I would respond

with patience and godliness and kindness,

and I would just be like,

God, you're really doing something in me.

I know I am not capable of this response

to these people right now.

And again, to your point,

that will never be on anybody's reel that says like,

oh my gosh, like Holy Spirit outpouring scene

at you know, Alec's household.

Dad didn't scream at his kids

when they were driving him crazy.

That will never be posted.

And yeah, I'm 100% certain

that like I was just fully dwelling

in the Holy Spirit in that moment,

doing something I could not do on my own.

Completely.

I think, oh, I'm so sorry.

No, you go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

No, it was just, I love the example that you gave of Peter

and at the Pentecost, just the majesty of the Pentecost,

like that moment.

And I thought about, even as you were talking of Peter

preaching to the 3,000, right?

He didn't, obviously it's not shown in the scriptures,

but I doubt that he, before he preached,

they had this encounter with the Holy Spirit,

they're filled with the Holy Spirit.

I doubt that Peter went and was like,

"Is this a move of the Holy Spirit?"

He's like, "Should I preach this or not?"

He moved, he preached,

and 3,000 were added that day, it says in Acts.

And it's like, not to say hesitation is always doubt,

like it's, and it's not necessarily

that you shouldn't test things and ask the Lord

and be in contact with him,

but it just encouraged me that it's like,

he just did it, he just did it.

Like he preached, and it was out of an obedience.

And it wasn't necessarily like,

and he obviously didn't do it to be like,

"All right, y'all."

There was no Instagram back then.

It was like he did it

because he wanted to further the kingdom of God.

And I think it's like, it's always,

we even talk about it on staff too.

It's not necessarily a negative thing

to show the move of God.

Like what a wonder, what an amazing thing that we have.

For example, social media,

that we can show what God is doing

and that encourages other believers.

But I think it can be really hindering

to specifically my generation of seeing that

and be like, "Man, God, why are you not doing that for me?"

But it's like, you're not heeding.

You're not heeding to what the Lord wants you to do

in this smaller scale, you know?

And that's a move of God.

That's what He wants you to be used for.

And we can become so obsessed with this,

like, "Oh man, this is what it's gotta look like."

And I'm not being seen, but you are.

You're being seen by the Lord in that obedience.

And it's just like, that's what I felt so burdened

on my heart, but Joshua, what were you gonna say?

No, I was just gonna piggyback off what you talked about,

which is obedience even when you don't want to

is still like obedience.

And I think about like my kids, I'm like,

hey, you need to go put your clothes away.

If he hangs his head and goes and does it,

like I'm proud of him.

And one day he's gonna be willing to do that.

And I think, if I'm listening to this podcast

and I want like the Holy Spirit to be more active

in my life, how do I start that?

Like how do I actively begin that journey?

And I had a lady who was so encouraging,

much older than me, a couple weeks ago in church was like,

"Hey, you talk about the Holy Spirit a lot.

"I wanna grow in that knee-jerk obedience

"to the Holy Spirit.

"What advice would you give to someone like me?"

Which one, I'm like, amen, that you're not retired

from following the Holy Spirit or retired from faith.

You're still just like, "I want more of it.

"I want more of it."

And so I'd be curious what you guys are.

I think my tip would be, and I shared with her, I said,

when I read in Galatians 5, the fruit of the Spirit,

the way I grew in the Holy Spirit is to memorize that

and love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,

gentleness, self-control, all of that.

The way I grew in dependence on the Holy Spirit,

walking with the Holy Spirit,

is when my flesh would come up against something

I don't want to do.

All right, Holy Spirit, I should do this,

I don't want to do this.

I think it would bring that person joy.

Absolutely.

I'm gonna do it.

Yep.

And then, hey, Holy Spirit,

like I don't wanna be patient right now.

I'm frustrated, I'm angry, I don't wanna be where I'm at.

I wanna be patient.

Yeah.

And through obedience to the Holy Spirit,

even when I don't want to,

has shown me the joy of that return,

a better way of living.

And so, you know, I would encourage anybody

who is wanting to live life more directed by the Holy Spirit,

like just look at the fruit of the Spirit,

make decisions based on that.

Like option A, B, and C,

what's gonna bring me the most joy?

A, B, and C, what's gonna bring me,

what's gonna grow patience in me?

And just saying yes to the things that will instill that

in you or in other people, like even when it's difficult.

But I'd be curious like for you guys,

you know, if we ran into somebody, you know, today,

or someone who's watching right now or listening,

if they're like, how do I get started

that's more dependent on the Holy Spirit.

Like what advice would you guys give them?

I love that you gave that,

the scripture that talks about the fruits of the Spirit.

Because ever since someone told me this,

of like the fruits of the Spirit.

And I love the way,

the multiple analogies that are given in the Bible

about like a plant, you know, it's a lot of garden.

Like, you know, stay connected to the vine.

Like, you know, like we are the branches.

And like, it talks about the fruit of the Spirit.

And someone, I remember someone told me,

I heard from something where it was talking about

these fruit have to grow

and you have to cultivate the fruit.

It's like a tree.

And so I love what you said of

these are things that'll help it grow.

You grow in the love, you grow in the patience,

and what do you do to cultivate that?

And I think for just being more attuned to the Holy Spirit

and if I were to tell someone how to do that,

it's just abiding in him, abiding in him,

staying in the word, praying.

It's all very, I was talking to someone before this,

This is all very pretty basic things,

but it's like, sometimes we have to come back to that.

Like, it's like, come back to the basics.

Like, we always want a fast track to something,

especially my generation.

Like, we want a fast track.

It's like, oh yeah, like, how do I hear

from the Lord right now?

And it's like, actually, it's a growing thing.

It's a growing relationship,

and you have to continue at it.

And we don't need this new age formula

to become more connected to the Lord.

we have everything that we need right here. We wanna stay in the word, learn about Him,

and just pray to Him, commune with Him. And that's what I think, it's just like,

it's really the basics, praying, abiding in Him, learning His voice. That's what I would say to

someone. - Yeah, I couldn't agree. I'm gonna say two different things, but my first one is basically

what you said, but I'm gonna still add something. So I think it's one, a great question somebody's

asking, like, "Hey, how do I start growing and hearing from? Where would I start?" On the one

hand, I'm 100% where you're at on, we want this secret formula or technique, and I do think that

abiding in Christ and just doing all the classic spiritual disciplines, being in community with

people, praying together. I mean, this sounds maybe like predictable from a pastor, but there's

something powerful about gathering with the people of God for worship. And we don't just

do Sundays 'cause like, "Oh, it's gonna be cool." That is a true spiritual discipline. So all these

things, being in scripture, all these things create a heart atmosphere that is receptive

to the Holy Spirit. And for years, I would look through up all these passages of...

passage in the Bible on the Holy Spirit. And I'm like, "Where is the chapter that says,

the answer to that question, 'Here are the five tips.'" And then I was literally praying about

this. And the Holy Spirit really spoke to me. The whole point is there aren't five tips. The whole

point is you are walking with the Lord closely, and that's the kind of person I speak to.

Because when you look at a lot of the examples of, "Then the Holy Spirit told this person to

take a, going to that town or this, there's not this... Sometimes you get, "Oh, they were

worshiping and praying and then the Holy Spirit spoke." But a lot of times it's like, they're just

going along and the Holy Spirit speaks. And I thought, "You know why he's speaking? 'Cause

they're already abiding in Christ." So on the one hand, it's a very long way of just putting...

What'd you always say, put it not exclamation point on it, you used to say this.

Oh, period.

Put a period on it. Is that, yeah. I don't know, it's like a point of emphasis, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, you haven't brought that out lately.

I haven't.

Where's it been?

I don't know.

That's like, you know, last year.

Yeah, period.

What would you say?

You see somebody say something and you go,

like if you were, it was an emphasis thing, right?

Like if I said.

I would just say period.

Just period. - Period.

Okay, well then it's period.

Like period, that's it.

Okay, well we'll bring it back right now.

So on the one hand, I'd like, I just,

I don't even know, I'm not gonna try that.

So I'm just gonna say,

the only other thing I'd say though is this.

If somebody was like, I really wanna grow in this,

I would say, one, just to make sure you've prayed

into a conviction that yes, the Holy Spirit is present,

is speaking, is right here.

And then I would say create many more moments

of quietness throughout your day

where you're slowing down saying, Holy Spirit,

do you have anything to say to me right now?

That for me is the number one thing

that gets in the way of me not hearing the Holy Spirit

is continuing to fill my life with noise.

I'm gonna share this Sunday,

and it's gonna be so interesting to see how people respond,

'cause it's so weird.

But I've had many times where the Holy Spirit

has prompted me to stop reading my Bible.

That sounds so weird, but this is the reason why,

because for me, the reward of reading

is much harder than the labor of listening.

I would rather like, oh, I'm reading this,

and then I'm cross-checking that,

and then I'm chat GPT in this and checking that,

"Oh, chat says this," and da-da-da-da-da,

and it's information, and it's all coming in,

and it's like, "Oh, that's so cool."

And that's great.

Learning is great, but listening is different.

And I would just say to that person,

you gotta make space to just be quiet.

You gotta abide, and if you're not abiding,

Holy Spirit's not gonna probably speak to you anyway.

But after that, I gotta just turn off the podcast,

and sometimes, I mean, again, forgive me, Lord,

but close the Bible and say,

"Holy Spirit, what are you saying right now?"

Well, I think that what

You're not gonna strike me down

as a heretic right now, guys?

No. - No, no, no.

Not till you say it Sunday.

(laughing)

Boo!

Well, I think what you both kinda nudged up against

is worth saying out loud, but just this myth,

well, I guess this part isn't a myth,

but like, yes, it is true that when we profess Jesus

as our Lord and Savior, we are filled with his spirit.

But when you read in Ephesians, I think it's 518,

of like, you know, don't be drunk,

but be filled with the Holy Spirit,

Like when you get into the nuts and the bolts

and the dirtiness of the original language,

that is meant to be a continual present tense filling.

And I think that's where a lot of people miss it

is they're just like not cultivating that relationship,

they're not abiding, they're like,

well, but when I was 16, I gave my life to Jesus

and I was filled with the Holy Spirit,

why am I not feeling like I am living life

by the power of the Spirit?

And it's like, well, but are you continually

positioning yourself to be filled more and more.

And Sue, for anyone listening who just wants that life,

like the Lord is so good and so kind.

Yeah, we need to cultivate areas of our life

to leave room for the Holy Spirit.

But one of the most powerful things you can do

is just say, "Father, I just want more of the Spirit."

Like, more please.

If we feel like we're struggling in any areas

of like the fruit of the Spirit, just like,

"Lord, I need more patience. Can you fill me with more patience?" And so I think sometimes we just

underestimate how good the Father is in granting our requests in ways that bring Him glory. But I

do think just like a lot of people within the church miss the fact that it's like, it's yes,

like you receive the Holy Spirit for the first time once, but then you need to be continually

positioning yourself to be filled and just be praying like, "More, Lord, more, Lord." And

that's when you start seeing life in the Spirit and what that really looks like.

Period.

Period.

Period. Period.

It's true.

That's it though.

Oh, that's so good. I thought about just this thing I shared the other day and it reminded me

kind of just like of this continual filling. And the Lord brought me, it was me and my husband had

and had a conviction a couple weeks ago

of we wanted to spend more time with the Lord

and be hearing more from the Holy Spirit.

And he brought me, this may be in relation,

but I just wanted to share it.

I thought it was kind of in relation.

But the Lord brought me to Matthew 25,

which is the parable,

the first part is the parable of the 10 virgins.

And I was reading through it.

I've read it multiple times.

And I was like, okay,

it's talking about the kingdom of heaven

will be like the 10 virgins.

And so basically the story,

if listeners have not read it before,

Yeah, 'cause the ones we're not on.

The story of the 10 virgins.

Right, it's like, I'll give you some context.

It sounds kind of scary, but

We'll link to the passage in the show notes, everybody.

Exactly, I promise, guys, it's good.

So I was just sharing this with some of my volunteers

of, it talks about these 10 virgins, five of them,

they're waiting for the bridegroom.

And there's a lot of context with that,

that you can look into the history of that,

but the brief context is, they're waiting for the bridegroom

to bring them to their wedding and be wed.

And so there's 10 virgins,

five of them basically didn't buy enough oil,

they don't have enough oil.

The other five are ready with their oil.

The five virgins who do not have enough oil for their lamps,

they're like, "Oh, can we borrow yours?"

But then the other five virgins are like,

"There may not be enough for me and you.

"You have to go buy your oil."

By the time that those five virgins go to buy their oil,

they miss the bridegroom.

And so when I was thinking about it, I was like,

"Okay, Lord, there's so many, oil and anointing,"

that word, it's like often like bridge to the Holy Spirit,

you know, and I was like, okay, Lord, like,

what are you like, what's the context of the oil

in this situation?

Like, I was like, what are they talking about in the oil?

Like, you know, they're running out of oil,

they don't have enough oil.

And I thought about how a lot of times,

like when we're wanting a experience of the Holy Spirit

or like, want a word from the Holy Spirit

or like him to move through the Holy Spirit,

we can often like not have enough.

I thought about the oil being like,

represented as like the evidence of God,

like the evidence of God in your life.

So it's like, we can try to go

and borrow someone else's oil,

this evidence of God in their life.

Like, it's like, oh, like, you know,

when we listen to a preacher, like, you know,

like we have so much media that's coming at us

and we're like, oh, that's so good.

Wow, what an incredible revelation.

And like, that's all good.

Like, that's all amazing.

But like, I think a lot of times we try to borrow

from someone else's oil and their time with the Holy Spirit,

their time that they've had these revelations,

when in reality, like we need to be ready with our oil.

We can have that experience for ourself.

We can have that experience with the Holy Spirit.

And we can't borrow from someone else's oil

because we're just gonna miss what he's doing.

We're gonna miss it.

And so it's so interesting because in this context,

it's obviously talking about the kingdom of God

and the oil could be looked at as so many different things.

But that was kind of the way that I thought about it.

I almost kind of thought about the oil

kind of being the Holy Spirit.

Of like, I can't just borrow from someone else's experience.

Like I can't just borrow from that.

The Lord wants to speak to me

and the Holy Spirit wants to fill me.

and he can give me revelation, he can give me guidance.

And so, but

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

Yeah, 'cause I think when we can fall into this trap

of when we want the Spirit's guidance

more than we want the Spirit's presence,

then we are like, why am I experiencing the Spirit's silence?

Right.

And it's because it's like, no, like this relationship,

like with you, like I don't want you

to experience the relationship just through your pastor

or just through your podcast, just through books.

And that has to be, I mean, what an amazing testimony

that the spirit is like, I want to live my life through you.

I want to be with you.

And if anyone ever needs a confidence boost,

the spirit of Jesus wants to be living in and through you.

That's like insane. - Insane, period.

That's like actually insane when you think about it.

Like that's just insane to think about.

I love watching, I'm not a big sci-fi guy,

but then this summer, I don't know, our kids

Sabbatical does weird things.

You know, they're like, you gotta watch,

and a couple of them really love the movie Interstellar.

Have you seen this movie?

I just started watching that the other day.

Okay, yeah, so we watched Interstellar,

and I have to say, it was really good.

I'm not a sci-fi guy, but they're doing all this stuff

out in the cosmos, and you just sit there and go,

oh my goodness, God made all this too.

It's just, space is insane.

And then you're like, and the God who made all of this

is dwelling in me.

Right, yeah.

Just mind boggling.

What other affirmation do you need?

Yeah.

Like in this life.

When you feel insecure, when you feel,

it's like no, the Lord wants to dwell in me.

And I have access to that power.

Crazy, it's so crazy.

Any other final thoughts you guys have for us today?

That you're sitting on?

They're burning your soul and you're like,

I gotta get this out before we call it a day.

I've got one, hold on. Go for it. So if you guys end up having something, that's cool.

Awesome.

I just... This just came back to me from a moment ago, and I'm actually gonna bring it up this

Sunday, but it came... It was flowing off the point you just said about the idea of not just

trying to get stuff from the Holy Spirit, I'll just paraphrase it badly. So recently at a staff

thing, I taught on Simeon, actually at a staff thing, you also Josh taught on Simeon, but out

out of Luke 2, and there's these different traits

of his life, and you can see why he was like

such a fitting vessel for the Holy Spirit.

But the thing that I was really reflecting on,

actually, after I did the teaching and prior to the one

that we're gonna have this Sunday, is I was like,

man, you know, Simeon wasn't doing any of those things.

He wasn't righteous and devout and waiting

for the consolation of Israel and all the things

that you could say about Simeon.

just so he could hear from the Holy Spirit.

He was doing those things

because he wanted to know and honor God.

And I think it's just really important that when,

what happens I think sometimes

is like these spiritual disciplines,

such as fasting or other things like that,

we have a thing we need or want from God.

And so we go into the, I'm gonna fast

and I'm gonna do these things and all that.

And I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing

to enter into a season of some special spiritual disciplines

'cause I wanna hear from God,

but we just have to be very careful

because it's easy to wanna turn the spiritual disciplines

into levers we're trying to pull to get something from God.

And where we want our hearts to be

is actually to want to get God himself.

And when that's our goal, I want more of God,

I want more of the presence of Jesus.

I do these spiritual disciplines, I'm holy,

I confess my sin, I live righteously

with my brothers and sisters

and try to honor relationships, all this.

I do those things because, man, I don't want a hindrance.

I just want to know God more.

And then I think out of that, the Holy Spirit comes.

And so I just think it's a really good point,

as you were saying, we don't want to make

spiritual disciplines or even the Holy Spirit himself

basically just a means to our ends,

or a pathway to our goals.

My goal needs to be, and it's not always,

my goal first needs to be,

I just wanna know and worship God,

and then everything else kinda flows out of that place.

Absolutely.

So we're gonna put a period there,

I'll let you guys, again, I'll give you one more chance,

and then otherwise we'll close it.

No, I'll piggyback off of just kind of a word of caution,

as you mentioned before, pulling the levers and stuff.

It's just the reality that,

as we talk about life in the spirit,

there are people who have, I'll just say,

been hurt by people in,

people who maybe from a charismatic movement

who have said like, "Oh, the Spirit is telling me to do that."

And people have been hurt in the Spirit's name.

And just wanting to encourage people out there

that if you've been hurt by people

who claim the Spirit's name,

don't take that out on the Spirit.

The Lord's close to the brokenhearted,

and He hurts where you hurt,

and don't miss out on this incredible indwelling

of Jesus living in and through you

because people who misuse Jesus hurt you.

Because man, like, He's close to your broken heart,

but give the Spirit a chance by the Spirit's terms

and you'll never regret it.

But I just felt like anytime we talk about that,

it's worth acknowledging that people have been hurt

by movements of God or people who are,

Well, the Lord told me to tell you,

and I just don't want people to miss out

on the life that Jesus offers

because of how they've been hurt

by people who bear Jesus' name.

That's good.

Yeah, that's good.

That applies to Holy Spirit promptings

and a whole lot of other things too.

That's good, thanks for sharing that.

I think about just the story of Mary

washing Jesus' feet, and he says,

"You chose the right thing."

Like, you chose the thing.

Like, and that's the Lord's heart for us,

is like, he wants to know us.

I think a lot of people, they miss that.

they miss that and it's so heartbreaking

'cause they're working so, so hard to delight the Lord.

And it's like, he just wants to know us.

He loves us.

He came down to save us.

He's given us freedom.

Like it's such a beautiful thing to even think about

because like I think about people who have been hurt

and it's like, you don't even know like the immense lengths

that the Lord has gone for you just to know you,

just to love you.

And it's beautiful to think about even just with allowing

the Holy Spirit to work through you

and the way that he speaks to you,

the way he gives you confidence, the way,

and it's all these things that he gives, gives, gives,

gives, gives, but also we can just abide in him.

It's not like an action, it's not like a thing

that we have to keep constantly chasing.

It's like the Lord just loves us, loves us.

That's good.

You guys, this has been such a great conversation.

It's fun hanging out with you, and it's fun too,

there have been things that you guys have shared

at different times that I haven't called out

as a special thing, but partially why I haven't called out

'cause it's like part of the message for this Sunday,

which again, speaking of the Holy Spirit and how He works,

it's just such an encouragement to me

whenever in some bizarre context,

somehow something you feel like the Lord's called you

to say, He kind of says, "Hey, you're on the right track

"here, and you guys have said, both said a couple of things

"that are part of the message for this Sunday."

Then I'm like, "You know what, just again,

"thank you, Holy Spirit.

"You're using this conversation,

"He's using, the Holy Spirit's using this conversation

about him to reaffirm what he's told me...

That's how people on Sunday...

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

That's the goodness of God. And back to the point of that you have both made,

he's a generous father, he loves sharing, we don't always have to get all the spiritual

disciplines just right to perfectly line up with... It does help, those are legitimate God-given.

Completely.

But also, he's just good and really gives. And you ask him, "Good father, I'd love more of the

He loves saying yes to that prayer 10 times out of 10.

Absolutely.

So thanks you guys.

Absolutely.

Well, that was such a great conversation.

I hope you enjoyed it.

Man, I love hanging out with friends,

talking about important things

and then being able to invite all of like

our Made to Advance friends into the conversation.

So hope you're encouraged.

If you were, please do rate and review us.

This has been a production of Engedi Church

and we've got some great conversations on the way.

So again, make sure you keep tuning in,

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We'll talk to you next time.