Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

Andy: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Ice Studio with Helen

Lewis Sabre Salman and Adam McQueen.

We're here to talk about all the hottest matters that have occurred

since the weather got a bit cooler.

Nice little weather joke for you there.

So sbi,

your story this week is about a Green party politician called Moin Alley.

And

it says something very interesting about not only local politics, but also

where the Greens

are nationally, which we'll get into

in a bit.

But for

starters, can you just tell us about Mr. Rally and

Helen: how

he's

Adam: ended

up

in

Andy: pages

Saba: of Private

Eye

this

Adam: fort mode?

Saba: moan Ali is the co depu leader of the Green Party nationally, and he is also

a local counsellor in Leeds what happened was, that moan was given a counsellor

allowance, a special responsibility allowance of about 6,000 pounds.

it emerged that he had no special responsibility, but it seemed that

he was given this, as we reported, for his national role as an

opposition party, you are entitled to not only your basic allowance.

So in Leeds, all counsellors get about 18 grand And over and above that, if

you have, what's known as a special responsibility, you get an extra bit

of cash and then leads, foot for that particular group, it's about 5,800 pounds.

Adam: And would those be

like chairing committees

or, yes.

Yeah.

Saba: Yeah.

So it, absolutely has to be an additional kind of extra responsibility on top of

what you do normally, which is, meet your ward constituents, , speak at the council,

Helen: the fact

Saba: is that Moin Ali had no such special responsibility within the

framework of not only Leeds, Councils sort of rules, but more widely the

government sort of regulations.

Andy: So has this decision been made because he's the, as you said,

Coty leader or the deputy co-leader?

Saba: Yeah, so

the lead deputy

Adam: co

Saba: works either way, a man of many jobs, What happened was there seemed

to be some sort of secret discussions within the green, group in Leeds that,

perhaps the national leadership, money he got for that role wasn't enough.

and so in recognition of his national role, he should get an extra bit of cash.

Now the problem with that is that counsellor allowances

are funded by local taxpayers.

So if I'm a local taxpayer in Leeds, I want my money to be, I may not want

my money going to the council at all, if I'm, remunerating counsellors, it

should be for the work they do within the, the council within the city.

So effectively what you have is a extra bit of cash going to a local counsellor

for a national political, role.

Okay.

Andy: How did the Greens react when you ask

them about this?

Saba: the timeline here is interesting, Andy, because, they seem to have

retrofitted counsellor MO with a special role, which is, group

spokesman, which was not on the website.

And indeed last time I checked this morning is still not on

the website to justify this.

and also, spokesman for youth violence initiatives, which

he's done some good work on.

and mentoring other counsellors, which again, I'm told that he's, that is what

he does, which is great, but it doesn't a justify the extra money and neither

is it that it's retrospectively added on to justify this extra bit of money.

Andy: But we understand that the Greens are denying that this

spokesperson role was retrofitted.

They say it's a role counsellor Ali has always undertaken and that they

just took steps to formalise it after the I ask questions, they also say

there are no specific rules about which roles can receive an SRA and

that the spokesperson role qualifies.

sometimes

when we record these, I look forward as in, I anticipate the comment section,

any American, viewers or listeners to this will be laughing at the

5,800

pounds.

What is this?

so

I suppose I'm interested in why we're covering this

and what, makes it a significant story

in the context

of the Green Party, and why are you having

a go at the

Greens when they're, they're not even in government.

Saba: Yeah,

Take the last point.

We have a go at everybody, it's not just the greens, but yes.

So it is a relatively small amount.

Absolutely.

5,800 pounds is, nothing in the great scheme of things if, council

controls some sort of hundred 40 billion pounds worth of services.

So it's a tiny amount.

It's the principle of it.

So government, guidance and, legislation on this means that the

special responsibility allowances SRAs are meant to be for additional

work aligned to the council.

So something you do within the council role.

Helen: The

Saba: fact that you retrospectively fit it is iffy.

Beyond that, this is not just a, a local story in terms of the local green group.

it is that because it's led to a

bit of infighting.

'cause some of the greens believe this, possibly wasn't quite right.

The procedure was wrong and what's going on here and we need it documented.

We need it properly, to be transparent.

So that's the local green group for the council, it's an issue because,

Helen: The council

Saba: is not a political entity, but obviously that is the council

constitution within which these allowances are handed out.

So what's happened there?

so that's the second point, is the council is now reviewing this

decision, which is quite unusual.

So effectively how this has happened, why it happened, when it

happened, who made the decision, and how much money has already

exchanged hands, should it be repaid?

so that review is ongoing.

and then the third thing is what it means nationally, because obviously

Council Lee is Coty leader of the Greens.

and if you think that, something you we've talked about in the

podcast before is Zach Polanski's.

Political identity is very much to do with transparency,

accountability, public institutions, working for the ordinary person.

This kind of flies in the face of that.

given that the greens, have had this surge in membership and way more

councillors over the last two local elections, some 1500 councillors

nationally now, if you're having more people coming in like this, and these

are some of the things that are going on.

Helen: for councillors

Saba: within local councils, how are funds being used?

Helen: Is there an anti Moin Ali faction in the Green Party?

Is this also representative of the fact there are some

people who aren't?

'cause

there's lots of discussion about the greens, about, the difference

between the,

the mangoes who are like, hang a minute, I'm gonna get this

terribly wrong in the water.

the ones who read on the inside, the ones who are most

interested in maybe g, the ones

who are

most interested in

anti austerity, the

ones who are interested in the environment, I believe

they believe exists as well.

he is a socially conservative Muslim, in

a party that is very big on LGBT rights, very big on social and liberalism.

That has always seemed

to me to be

a kind of really interesting, how those two things

sit in tension with each other.

So do you think this is reflective of a wider, pe are there people who are

unhappy with his role in the Greens for whatever reason that this is,

this scrutiny is reflective of that?

Saba: I think what I'm hearing with this particular story is genuinely

the principle of how did this happen?

And it is not, we think he is dodgy Persie.

It's a personality thing.

yes.

Within, the greens generally.

and, I think in, this part, with this particular group, there is

a new contingent that's come in.

So there's about 11, counsellors now.

And it is a broad, church, in, in the general sense, the word.

so what I would say is that the moan has done some great community work.

he's also been, controversially, he's hit the headlines for making comments

after the, October 7th, Hamus attack.

which for which he subsequently apologised.

So he did get in trouble for that.

But he's also done some work, environmentally he's very

pro inclusive gardening.

so

Helen: tell

me more about

Saba: that.

So this is,

he has a very well regarded, locally, project called Dig It Out.

make gardening and horticulture more inclusive, get the

racism out of, horticulture,

Helen: there was a whole thing about whether or not you should

name plants after people.

'cause a lot of them are named after quite terrible cleanliness,

but it's not that, right?

It's the idea of minorities

not feeling, but to

Saba: no, to my knowledge, he's not, renaming the, the English

rose into some ham Gandhi, kind

of

thing.

Adam: There

is a really important principle, and it's quite a difficult,

it's

one

that sort of everyone

can agree

on

in

principle,

but it's quite hard in the practise of it, which is that

politicians have

two roles,

don't they?

is the role in their political party and

their role as, as, as

public servants, if

you like.

And

there's always a sort of, what

this

Saba: reminded

me of is

Adam: if you

can cast your mind back to, many, Farage fallouts ago, do you

remember when Douglas Carswell

was, was, MP for, for Tonne in fact for

Yeah, yeah, Same constituency.

But for Kip Nigel old party at that point, and he was, came

under a lot of, pressure from,

from, pp management to accept all of the opposition money,

as the sole

UK mp at that point.

They're

Helen: short

what did In

Westminster,

right?

Adam: You

mean?

Yes.

yeah, the short money, which I think is

named after,

Ted Short.

I think is, it's one

of those weird ones.

like Felicia Beacons, isn't it?

Leslie Belisha everyone, and no, no one remembers

him, but there you go.

he was the transport minister brought

those in.

But, yeah, short

money, which is effectively a big allowance for

opposition parties.

And

as the sole UCO mp,

he was entitled on principle

to claim all of that and was

encouraged.

It would've involved him taking on sort of 15

assistants or something who

evidently were not gonna be working for, a single

mp.

No one has 15 assistance.

it was

effectively just to use

that that, that public money, for party purposes.

for you purposes.

And he disagreed with that on principle and found out

horribly with,

with,

Nigel Farra over

that.

Oh

Helen: Good.

Good For a rare thing for me.

Good for Douglas Calwell.

Adam: well, yeah, unfortunately unfortunately

things have gone

a

bit

awry since,

' cause he's

moved to, Southern

Saba: America

and

got

very,

race

conscious,

Adam: shall

we

say,

euphemistically.

Saba: you are entitled to this public

money, Whether or not you take it is up to you.

And there are examples, big up the counsellors who've said, actually, no,

Andy: that.

What these special responsibility

Saba: sometimes special responsibility, right?

sometimes basic allowance, but on the other hand, we've covered so many stories

in rotten boroughs of counsellors who, take the money and don't do a lot for it.

we recently reported, in Lambeth, which is now under Green Minority Control.

when the Greens were in opposition, they said, this is terrible.

Labor's claiming all this money for council allowances, they must stop.

Lo and behold, fast forward a little bit, they're now in RE control, and they

are suggesting, or they had suggested, that actually let's have some more cash.

And they were proposing taking more account allowances, than the labour.

and actually that, that was overruled in there, and it's backed down to

a more kind of manageable level.

But there are

examples.

Andy: it

sounds like growing

pains whenever a party's growing, the, the sort of

tensions become apparent between the

different bits.

It can't, it doesn't stay just on one

thing.

It doesn't

stay just on

environmentalism, like how Greenpeace has always been, half green and half piece.

those are the two

different bits of it.

Helen: the Greens have, I think done a really good job of so far of building

Saba: out

their

infrastructure.

Absolutely.

I mean they had a big surge and they a hundred thousand members.

Yeah.

Helen: I mean they, I covered

in many podcast

past, they had a bit of an, an issue with GATE keeping, some of the counsellor

candidates, but they nonetheless got a lot of bums on seats before that May

election, very quickly tooled up in it.

And that was a big expansion

Saba: of Yes, absolutely.

And a lot of ex

labour counsellors

as

well.

Again, we've covered it.

Adam: very unusual position, aren't they?

Because They are now a political party with several, mps

Saba: in

Adam: Westminster.

None of whom are the leader or deputy leader.

No.

The

leader himself

hasn't,

has he ever

stood to Parliament,

Zach Lansky?

He

Saba: certainly

Helen: hasn't.

He tried to.

when he was

a

lib

dem

he

Adam: Oh, okay.

For a

different party.

But he, pointedly hasn't,

Helen: he

hasn't been

a candidate.

I wonder if he'll go for London Mayor, 'cause he is a

London Assembly member.

But that, I think that's shaping up to be a very

interesting contest.

So James Cleverly is just a clever, a very serious,

candidate from the conservative.

So I, you,

I personally quite like Mrs. I dunno if he's turning into Helen's right

wing

politicians.

I like our, but yeah, I, so I think that would be an interesting

test case for Zap Pansky.

I slightly think

he'll

bottle it,

Saba: We've only had Cleverly and Layla Cunningham

Helen: we?

who said reform

For reform And I think Dawn

Butler is very much angling from

it from the labour

side.

Although Sadik, I

dunno if he has, he even

said yet.

No, I

don't want the glorious

19th

term.

Saba: I think everyone's assuming that he won't,

Helen: he

Saba: will

Adam: Yeah.

Saba: carry on.

Do you think

cleverly

planned to do

Adam: this or do

Saba: you think he found out he was on

his

Adam: out from the front bench?

' cause there's been a reshuffle over

Saba: the

bank

Adam: haven't they?

Saba: Just a bit.

Poor Mel

Helen: Stride.

Saba: Oh, a hero nearly before

anyone actually worked out who

he was

is

no longer shadow Chancer

Adam: is

he?

Saba: And now he, five minutes.

Andrew

Griffiths

Adam: another

bald

Saba: man

of a certain

Andy: age.

may, maybe

cleverly found out that accidentally

he'd said something

nice about net zero

three years

ago and as a result was going to be cast into the outer

Helen: darkness.

I think he's been planning it for quite

a, a while

because he's from a sea

and outer London.

So I

think

you know, that, that sort of Well, it has been

baffling

to me that the Conservatives haven't

since Boris Johnson put up better candidates.

Like there is a,

there are a lot of,

but there are, there they should be fishing

in a pool of lots

of people who, would've once been Tory voters of 20

Andy: years

ago.

who do we have?

Adam: we had Zach Goldsmith

Saba: who could bring him

Adam: back

who could have Zach, Zack, v Zack Battle.

Helen: be good, wouldn't

that

Adam: there?

Zack off,

or

Susan Hall.

for the, gaity of the Nation.

Saba: it's a really interesting one though, isn't it?

Because given, the last time was talking to all of you about what's happened

in, in London with, the may elections.

It's up for grabs, isn't it?

there's a reform coming that's come in,

Adam: within

Saba: London.

You've got the Greens, who've made great inroads and you've got the green Mayor.

So Yeah,

Helen: not

oh, it could easily be like a

sort of five-way genuine, five-way contest that Merrill race.

Adam: I'm

kind And

Saba: they've

changed

Adam: the voting

system now,

Saba: haven't

it?

Is this first

Adam: post

now, which it

was always,

Saba: Oh really a secondary vote in

London, wasn't

it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Adam: I remember

when

I

lived

in London

many, years

ago.

Great

long

list

of

candidates

and you had to take

Saba: First

choice,

second

choice.

Helen: Alright,

Andy: We've gotta move on shortly.

But I've got

one last question

for you all.

the day after this podcast goes out is gonna be the start

of

party conference season.

I think reform are

kicking off

Saba: Woohoo.

Andy: You've each got the chance to be a fly on the wall at any one of

the party conferences.

Which one would you like

to

attend

and

why?

Saba: I'm gonna say reform.

Because apparently they have got, and I know this 'cause I got lost down the

rabbit hole of the reform, website.

They've got apparently a double decker bespoke, exclusive VIP box.

Okay.

In

the middle.

Okay.

Adam: was beos though, that went down,

didn't it?

It started well

with the

adjectives.

Saba: It was

deliberate.

Now can I just say know it's glass, it's transparent glass box.

Okay.

Do any of you remember the, slightly off key, severance?

The TV show?

Yes.

Okay.

They did a PR stunt in

Helen: the

middle of, was

it grand?

Central Penn State?

Yeah, I think it was one of the New York

Saba: Okay.

They were all in a transparent box.

And so I saw that and thought it is

Helen: exactly

like that.

Or David

Blaine.

over

Adam: Blaine Yeah.

By Tower Bridge.

Saba: yes.

Bridge.

Three grand ticket VIP platinum ticket.

I'm in that box and I'm at the heart of the action.

I'm

Adam: having a

Saba: dinner

with

Adam: Farage.

Saba: I

it's, we're

Adam: genuinely offering to lock someone in

a box

with

lighter

Saba: Barrage.

Yep.

And they have to

pay

for

it.

I'll

do it.

I'll

do

it

for the

I

Andy: Okay.

that,

can you, can

either of you cap that?

So reformer

Helen: off

the

table now.

I think I

am going to conservative conference, which will

be

Andy: because you

would just want to be

nice

Helen: about

more Right.

wing politicians,

Do you,

know what?

Sometimes I think

Andy: haven't got hit

my

quota

Helen: for

this week.

Andy: Come

Helen: on

Tom Tuan.

I'm

sure

Adam: must

be

Saba: I could

say that Tommy

Helen: Tugs,

he got

promoted.

Yeah,

Adam: Yeah,

I

know.

No,

sorry.

Saba: Tommy Tugs goes

national

Helen: It's very true.

I think labour will be

interesting because I

would like to

see

whether or not any first

cracks are appearing in the kind of,

we're so happy.

It's amazing that Andy Burnham has come to save us all

because the state of the Labour party does

not stay happy

for long.

I would say in

the course

of 15 years covering them, I would say.

But again, from your point of view, I think greens would be a great one to go

to because

again, it's a party that's in flux.

It's trying to work out where it sits, like who it's the main

challenger

to what it's prepared to tolerate

within the tent.

Those conversations always end up spilling out in fringe meetings

and pub conversations around

it.

So I think that will be, yeah, I think all of them

will

be

interesting.

You've

gotta

pick, I'm

afraid.

Saba: Okay.

If

I can

only

get

Helen: a

one.

I'm gonna stay

with

going.

I

would go to

the

Greens.

Saba: Nice.

Andy: Adam.

Saba: I

was

gonna go live

de just for the

karaoke night so I could

cringe

myself

inside

out.

But I

Helen: Club you mean

Adam: that's the

one?

Yeah.

No,

I

Saba: think

I'd

have to go to your

party.

Helen: Wherever

Adam: they're

holding

theirs, which

Saba: Imagine obviously

Helen: is,

the shed

Adam: on,

on,

Saba: Jess's.

Elman or

something

and

Andy: tomorrow won't

be

Helen: there.

Helen.

Hello.

Andy: Another

Helen: quiet

fortnight

in

America, I

imagine.

How's that all going?

It's the opening question

Andy: The opening in America.

No.

this is,

someone

Helen: called

John

Andy: Ossoff, Which

is a

name

I

Helen: cannot

take

seriously.

you and President

Trump both.

So President Trump has been

work shopping some, nicknames for him.

Really?

Of course he has.

He's currently settled on Oz brackets, jerk

Adam: off,

which

I think

the trouble

is that they don't

say toss off in, in

America, do they?

it's

not

they have, like

Trump has got away, I, everyone in Northern England, in the

band is named Ra fart,

Helen: but

they're

completely

oblivious

to

this.

No, he's

also tried Peewee Herman, which is

a, a, reference of as

Adam: children's to speak, but he got that wrong, didn't he?

He said

Pinky

Herman

Helen: pink like

pinky in the

brain.

Hem

Andy: Pinky

Herman

Bang.

Up

to the minute

reference

Helen: there.

Yeah.

Okay.

Who is John

Ossoff?

So John Ossoff is, senator from Georgia.

He is

too young, in my opinion.

He's younger than me, which I like.

Isn't my cutoff now for people being probably, actually might,

Andy: even, no,

he's

Helen: younger than

Adam: you.

He's my

age.

Yeah.

Hey, you

haven't reached an point with

the doctor who start being

younger

than you.

That's a

really

Helen: That's a really depressing moment.

Anyway,

so he,

can't, we can't

go

into statins

yet.

Andy: Now,

Come on.

Helen: who is John

oer?

Can I get a compare?

Very focals.

That's my

question.

he is the senator

of Georgia.

He's facing reelection

in the

midterms and

it's one of the, gonna be one of the tightest races.

He, in 2020, it was, both of the ca in the Republican both got under 50%.

They had a runoff, as did the other Georgia seat that those, both those

came in January, 2021 and gave the Democrats control of the Senate.

So like the, this was one of the race that's been seen incredibly closely.

The other reason it is, because he's seen as

a potential 2028 presidential

candidate.

So he is a young white guy in a state, Georgia, which is

demographically very mixed, has a very big black population as well.

So the feeling is that if he

can unite

that kind of coalition, if

he can appeal

to both white and black voters in a southern state, that's

something that's really exciting.

'cause you might

be able to

put back together that kind of Barack Obama coalition

that spreads across like a,

a

Andy: good

chunk

of

America.

Helen: So

everybody's looking at him and he's got a really interesting media strategy, which

is that he doesn't do those like quirky

social media clips or

like the great, a OC talking to camera about her pizza or egg freezing, whatever.

He does a quite an old fashioned, actually a bomber style.

He will go and do rallies and then they'll clip

them up, put them out, and then they'll, they, the clips from he'll try and

make the clips and rallies go viral.

Anyway, he'd had a rally a couple of weeks ago in which he said, the

president sleeps through his meetings.

He

golfs and trade stocks.

See, he doesn't wanna do the job.

I think he

Adam: gave it more charisma

Helen: this.

I should

clarify.

He didn't

just, shall I read it

for Pete?

He

wants to build his

ballroom and

travel with Natalie on their apparently defenceless flying palace

gifted by the Amir of Qatar.

Now you're having

question, aren't

you?

Yes.

Who

is the emir of Qatar?

That's a great question.

who is Natalie?

the

thing, the reason you can tell this was a great line is that the crowd went wild.

The crowd erupted.

They know

exactly who Natalie is.

Natalie is

Natalie Harp, who is known as Donald

Trump's human printer, which is not

something I would personally put

Andy: on

business

cards.

Helen: She doesn't

work.

Andy: She

Helen: She requires a huge

Saba: of,

she's offline

Helen: for

some

Saba: reason.

Andy: I

do

Adam: like that we

go

into

a bit

of observational

Saba: stuff.

Andy: I

I

do

like

it.

Helen: Look out

Michael

Andy: McIntyre.

Helen: why is she a human printer?

So she carries around

a portable printer so she can print off dank memes and things she's

seen on the internet

to

Saba: them to

Helen: Donald Trust.

That's

so

relatable.

Do you

Saba: you That I'm loving I every by

Adam: essential item.

Someone who

just hands

you flattering things, but handing 'em on paper

as

Saba: well.

I love

Helen: It's old school.

Yeah.

So she,

the closest thing in a way is that like there's often been a role for presidents

is like the body man, which is the person who kind like their personal age.

She's kind of that role.

Like she's the one who's

Adam: always

constantly

with

him.

Saba: her spec, her

Adam: actual

title is

special assistant

Saba: and

executive

Helen: assistant,

isn't

it?

Special executive

Adam: assistant to

the

Helen: Yes.

Saba: a

lot

Andy: the parts

in this.

Does she

get

a special

responsibility

Helen: allowance

or, I think she

probably does, but the thing that's very interesting about that is, so

obviously the crowd hiss, about this.

So they know the rumours

about her, which are exactly the

rumours you'd expect

if an 80-year-old man with

multiple wives and mistresses spent a lot of time on an

attractive 30 something blonde.

However, the more interesting way to talk about their relationship

is the fact that she's essentially

like a sort of

more like a kind of care home

assistant in a way.

Which is that she's just keeping, like she, she feeds him stuff.

She's

supposedly the one food, or

not that we know of food, but

she's supposedly

the one

who gave him

the picture of the

Obamas as apes and which I mean that he later

repost on his, his true,

so she showed that to him.

So she's responsible for

his information

diet,

which on the basis

Saba: of his information output

Helen: is poor

drunken

junk out.

Yes.

Is

absolutely poor.

The other thing that's really interesting

about

this is that

the response from the White House

Saba: was

Helen: way over

the top.

Way

over the top.

Steven Miller, if you remember the one slightly sort of ATU looking

fellow, he said that, John Osos comments are among the most vile things

I've seen

Saba: in American

Helen: politics.

Adam: I know right?

Andy: The

Helen: in a

Saba: bond.

Keep looking hard,

Andy: Yes.

Helen: Real.

Give your head a

wobble

territory.

The, phrase,

Have

you

met

Saba: your boss?

Helen: Travel

with Natalie is one of the worst things he's ever heard.

Yeah, I know,

right?

And that's euphemism now,

isn't

it, it's very Ugandan

discussions, I have to say.

Now, Stephen Chung White has press every called O of John jerk off and

the biggest cocal lose in politics.

real Algonquin, round table debating stuff here.

white House

spokesman referred to him as a cringe-worthy feminine theatre kid

and a liked weight loser.

So there was this massive immediate ga like type.

They really,

any

communications advisor would've said, let this one go lads.

And instead there

was just this

warmth of anger about how very dare he say

this.

At the same time though, the other interesting thing is I, she'd been

on my radar from regime change, which we discussed on this podcast.

Yeah.

which is the book about the White House by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Huberman, the New

York Times supporters, which had said that

she, Natalie Harp

had got this job

by sending Trump these

letters saying, you are everything

to me.

she's got this slightly fishy

story about how she had a cancer that

was incurable,

or that they were gonna give her palliative care.

And instead,

thanks to Trump's amazing act

that will let people try unapproved medicines, she got

an experimental treatment.

That story really does not wash up.

But basically

she turned up on stage next to Trump going, I'm only alive

because of you God, emperor.

Andy: And

Helen: went,

I

like

you,

I want to spend more time with you.

Person

who uncritically adores me.

And he's been known to say things like, the rest of you will all go

and work in the private sector,

but Natalie will

never leave me.

And

so

there is, at the same time this, there was this huge defence

of her.

There are people

within

that White House, like Susie Wales, Trump's chief of staff, who were said

to be a little bit, concerned about

this

slightly codependent

bond that

they have.

And in the wake of

that

Ossoff report, someone actually leaked one of Natalie harp's letters to Trump's,

So the, the criticism's

come back

from the White House.

This is all very

sexist.

You're having a go

at a woman, you're diminishing her, you're calling

her a

Barbie, but she's not really

helped

herself

by

writing these

Adam: that

are,

and you're

a

bunch of ultra

Saba: feminine

theatre

kids

and

cuts.

Yes.

I'm still

stuck on

that

insult

Helen: feminine

theatre

kids feminine.

Oh, but that's the same thing that they've been giving to James Tall Rico in

Texas.

That's Democratics.

It is all

basically you are fem, you are gay,

you are trans, like

it's

all

Saba: you're

not a

real

man.

It's so

pathetically

schoolyard,

Adam: isn't

it?

It is

from a

Saba: group

of

people

who,

do well, it's not, it's also

Helen: schoolyard

in the

1980s

as

Saba: well,

isn't

it?

It's just, yeah.

course.

I feel there's a lot going on in American politics that you write

about that might be more worthy

of

their

Helen: attention

than

trading.

they don't wanna talk about the war

'cause that's going

badly.

They don't wanna

talk about the economy

' cause that's going badly.

They don't wanna talk about Trump and

what he's doing.

'cause all

he cares

about is his ballroom.

He's basically

Adam: checked

out

and he's

just,

renamed

also,

I'm

sorry,

these people

are not

the

Saba: jocks.

you

look

at

Trump and

Adam: Stephen Miller and

you think,

sorry, you are

not

the

Saba: popular

kids

at

Helen: school.

Yeah,

I know.

I

know,

but I,

thought, I thought that you'd like this In one of her letters to him, She wrote,

basically, I could not have parted with

you

Andy: anyone less

worthy.

Oh,

Helen: Oh,

is

it

a Jane

Austen

quote,

which is Pride and Prejudice,

which is what

Mr. Bennett says.

When Lizzie Bennett goes and asks

if

she

can

marry Mr. Darcy.

Who's

Darcy

in

this

Donald Trump.

Saba: Oh,

I

don't

wanna

Adam: him in

coming

Saba: out

late.

Really nice.

we've

all

gone

there.

Thank you for that.

Really

Helen: really

not,

Oh yeah.

That's so

unsavoury.

There

we go.

That's the word.

She

also wrote in a letter to him,

I want things to always be right between us.

I also know I've been distracted all week

for getting to

eat throughout the

days, even forgetting to sleep and only catching a couple

of hours at

a time.

She also wrote,

Andy: you are

all

that matters

to me.

Oh

my God.

It's

getting

Helen: about

50

shades of

orange,

isn't

it?

Adam: know

where

I'm

gonna

go with

this, Tanya.

I'm

gonna

go

to

my favourite

place,

my

Helen: happy

place.

There's 1970s.

It's

Adam: reminiscent

of the

relationship between

Harold

Wilson

and, Marcia

Williams,

lady

Voler in

the

second

Wilson

administration.

But

that both

in, in

the

rumours

that were

going at

around

it, I

think

it's pretty

much

established

that

they

did have

an

affair,

not

at least.

' cause

Marcia

went

and

told

Mrs.

Wilson

that

she slept, I

slept

with

your

husband

on

five

occasions in

1956 and

it

was

unsatisfactory,

which is

one

of the greatest

Helen: quotes

ever.

Great.

performance.

review.

I'll

bring it up in his annual

appraisal.

Thank you.

for the

Adam: you.

Just

The idea

that his

wife

Helen: was gonna go,

I'm

sorry,

He's got better

Adam: at

it.

I

have

another

go.

Very,

odd.

but,

but also

the

kind

of

over

the top

reaction to it.

famously they

sued

the

move.

Do you remember

the

pop

group?

You

won't remember?

the pop groups long before you

were born

Flowers

in the Rain?

You

might know

it was

the

very

first

record

ever

played

on,

radio

One

Fact fans, Tony

Blackburn

Blackfoot show.

but

they

released

with that

a

sort of satirical post culture in a cartoon

I

think of,

Harold

and Master in

Bed together

and

sued.

To

the

point

where,

Harold Wilson and his estate still receive,

or I think

all

royalties to

that record,

which is quite a big record in the sixties, and donate them

instead to, great Ormond

Street Hospital.

and, constantly there were these rumours going around.

Marcia,

Williams sued,

of this parish.

our

previous colleague, Francis, we,

for a drama

that he wrote

about

her, towards

the end

of

our life,

I

think about 2006,

which

suggested all sorts of

things,

which

were pretty

much

established as fact.

Like she wrote

the Lavender List, which was, Harold Wilson's, resignation honours list.

and

she pulled

in our favourite, legal company,

Carter

Fuck.

got an agreement from the BBC that

would

never be

broadcast again.

So this

sort

of over the top

reaction to things that just fueled stories,

it's, very

much that

go.

But

it

may be,

it's also a

similar

sort of relationship,

I think,

because

laterally,

Harold Wilson

has

been

established, had Alzheimer's, and was not in control at all of what was

going on within his own government.

And this,

as

you

Andy: said,

the

Helen: home

thing

does

sound slightly

I

think that's the thing is that she the reason that people get upset about it

isn't is because of the feeling that she

is a gatekeeper and controls access to him in the same way.

Exactly.

That Lady Falken was

Right.

That you have to go through her.

That the

power that gives to an

unelected 30 5-year-old with no, real background, that who exists there purely

because of kind of personal patronage isn't irritating

to everybody

Andy: around her.

there a broader

sense of what this means for the Republican

Party

in

particular

as they

Helen: barrel towards

2028?

I

think the thing that's really

interesting is this is part of a broader discussion

about the, the

tactics

that the Democrats should go use

going into the next election.

So the big thing that Michelle Obama said was,

Andy: when

Adam: they go low, we

Helen: go

high.

And

yet you

have

seen, so ABD Saed

in Michigan,

who's the Democratic candidate Senate, there

made a joke

about Donald Trump shitting his

pants in the Oval Office.

even Obama slightly edged a bit

towards that in a call and response with somebody

in a rally in 2024.

So there is a

kind of

Adam: do we

Helen: get

outta the kind of Trump's insult comic

style politics?

Or

does everybody just embrace that now?

Is everybody just,

and, I think the, the gloves are off.

I went to the Democratic National Convention 2024, where

Elizabeth Warren, who is like

75, looks like a school mom, like Massachusetts

Senator,

couldn't

look more uptight, made a joke

about JD Vance and the couch.

Adam: And

Helen: was like, oh, okay.

This is where we are now.

Like there

will be this substrate of rumours and memes on the internet

that are things that no newspaper would ever publish because, they're not true in

many cases.

But

it's like the story about,

the goat

and the, make him deny it.

the story

about that there's a apocryphal story about, I'm gonna say my

opponent has sex with goats.

I just wanna make him deny it.

There's gonna be, a lot of that

stuff is gonna

come up in the next election where it's

just gonna be like

these unbearably,

vicious, mean rumours.

And then the cling is

like, am I gonna make them

deny

it?

And there'll be

a kind of knowing, not a wink

between people and their audiences and John Ossoff's whole vibe

is very much white

Obama.

So

it's interesting

to

me that

he's also doing this material.

It shows that the appetite for kind of prissy, let's get politics back outta

the gutter

is

Adam: relatively

Andy: limited

in

Helen: America.

That's

my,

yeah.

It's a very

decorous way of

Andy: of it.

that's

my way

of

putting it.

Let's come

now to a media organisation which wouldn't print

any of these disgraceful

things that

you've been saying.

Helen, the British Broadcasting Corporation.

So there's a

charter

of

renewal

Adam: coming,

which

always

sounds

incredibly

mediaeval,

renew

the charter.

Sounds

like

they're

Helen: gonna

have to

go

un

Andy: doesn't it?

Yeah.

But

in

2020, what?

The end of 2027?

Yeah.

Unless

a

new

charter

Adam: is

agreed.

The

BBC

just

vanishes

Ceases

to

exists, just vanishes

off your

Andy: screens and broadcasting

house

just

melts.

Exactly.

So

this

is a thing that happens

every 10 years and there's a lot of discussion about

it

at the moment.

Not at least because there's

an enormous

gap

in the BBC's

budget.

They're having

to make big

cuts of about,

I think

a 10th

of

the workforce

and the

proportion of

people who pay the licence fee is dropping.

I think

it dropped

by something like half a million

people last year, which

is

roughly

2% of the existing

household

base who pay

for it.

So you've got this funny situation where the be is still doing the

same stuff, but the resources

available to it

are

dropping.

People are going elsewhere.

Everyone's on

their bloody phones all the time.

How does

the BBC

react?

Adam: And

this is

something

that

you've been

looking

at in

particular,

Adam.

It is.

Yeah,

yeah.

the,

licence fee, as you say, people paying have gone down

massively the licence fee

you have to pay for broadcast television, which the audience is declining

but not declining

that much.

There's

still

an awful lot

of

people out there

who

still watch linear television.

There's a whole argument about, that signal being switched off at some point

and,

when will be

the

right

time

to

do

that.

but also you're

supposed to pay it

if you watch

the iPlayer

and

the

iPlayer

Helen: has

been

up

and

Adam: for

over

a

decade now.

And

in

this

charter

renewal thing, one of the questions that was put up for consultation

by

the government

was,

would

it be an idea for people logging into the iPlayer?

when

you

Helen: log

into

Adam: online, you have to

put

in

your password

to put in their licence fee

number

before

they

can

watch

it,

rather

than

just have

a

box

that

says

you paid your licence fee that you can just click.

Yeah.

I always wonder if anyone ever presses

no

on

that.

it's

genuinely,

this is what they're thinking

about

now

because

there's

been

this huge, drop off in people paying it.

there's also

all sorts of odd ideas.

Did you see, last week there

was

the

big

shindig up

in

Edinburgh, the Edinburgh

TV festival, because all festivals

by law have to

happen

in

Edinburgh

in

August

just

to ensure

there's

no hotel

rooms or anything

for anyone

anywhere.

but, Matt Britten, the, new BBC Director General

who came from Google,

announced that

he

thought,

the

eye player ought

to

be more

like YouTube owned by

Google.

they, he

have this absolute obsession with YouTube.

This is one of the other things is, that's in this charter renewal, is how

much of their programming

should be made available on YouTube,

which is where

younger people, 16 to 34

year

olds,

that

key

audience

who

aren't

watching

BBC output,

on their tallies anymore, are going over to YouTube and watching all of this.

But the idea that

he

Andy: came

Helen: up

with

Adam: that,

He made

it

more

an open platform for creativity.

Matt, Bre

Britain said, say to people, you can create

content about where

you live, about the sports team you follow about the skills and businesses in

the area, and do that in line

with

our

guidelines.

So the idea that you're

opening

up

to YouTube is already

to

people creating their own stuff and

somehow

having

going

out

under

Andy: the

B,

BC

Helen: in

premature.

Yeah, I'm against that.

That reminds me of that time when you remember like where Forbes and

HuffPost and people like that were like, anybody can blog for us.

And so

there's

Adam: just

like

random

stuff

on

there

from the

2010. it reminded

me

as well of endless

stories

I've done for, for

Street

of

Shame

in,

Private

Eye, which

are about,

effectively a

lot of

media

organisations have

already tried this particularly, the Big B Moss behind local papers.

So Reach PLC.

we reported

recently

allowed a PR company, affiliated to a news agency to provide content

written in a page ready format,

which effectively,

you

know, no journalism involved

at all, right?

Just

companies

punting their

stuff directly onto

newspaper websites.

Newsquest, we were at about recently the

Bourmouth Echo

launched

a

new alliance, they

called it, with a local vigilante group who'd been, criticised,

in fact

denounced

by the local police and

the police and

crime

commissioner

and

the

local

council.

punted up a bit of money and now have this sort

of sponsored page

within

it So

effectively

what

you end

up

with,

this is what you've got on

a

lot

of

YouTube anyway.

It's

probably not getting

much of an audience

on YouTube,

but random people just doing

self-promotional

stuff.

It

Andy: sounds

like

a

terrible

idea

to

me.

I,

think Britain said in the

speech,

he was just flying a kite.

It's not,

it's not formal

policy

yet

or

anything

to

go

with

this,

but

I

think

he was

trying to say that since the last charter was agreed in 2017

when TikTok didn't exist in the UK when most households didn't

even subscribe

to

one

streaming

service.

The,

the

media landscape great

phrase has changed so

enormously.

How on

Helen: earth

does

Andy: BBC respond to it?

And

you're in a weird situation where the BBC has

to

produce high quality

stuff,

stuff on the beep goes through a lot more checks, it goes

through a

lot more lawyers.

it is

held to a much higher standard than everyone else.

And it's having to do that with fewer

Helen: resources.

And even when it

has produced

that

Andy: stuff, a lot of it is then

Helen: nicked

or

scraped

by

Andy: models.

Like Google's Gemini, which Matt Britain will know all

about,

I'm sure.

Which, then

is just being used for

free even

though

the,

the beeper's asked AI model not to just put out its stuff for their own good.

And they've,

Adam: some

of

Helen: them

do

and

some

Adam: of

them don't.

There

is

absolutely

no

question that, as you say, the

landscape

Helen: has

changed

massively.

Adam: Things

have gotta

change

the

licence

fee.

I

think

days have got

to be numbered for that.

There is, there's got to, it's something from 1927, there has to

be

a

better

Helen: way

of,

Adam: it.

And

some

of the

ideas

they're talking

about

as I was putting a sort

of graduated

tax

on your council tax and everyone pays for it, I think are fairly

bonkers as

well.

I

would

say

my suggestion's a

mad suggestion this, but

the solution

for the BBC is not

to try

and be more like everyone

else.

Not to

try

and be YouTube,

not to try and be Netflix.

What about

being the

B, BC and actually

doing

those core

things that the BBC is

really, good

at

because it's

still, I think, the most trusted news

brand in

the country

and

globally

as

well.

the World

Service is

enormous sort of soft power all over

the

place, but they seem to be cutting resources from that and, and,

the stuff

Helen: that

I

think

people

Adam: that justifies the licence

fee to people

and, radio

and, the stuff that no one else is doing,

they cut

back

enormously on local radio, which

is a thing

that

no one

else goes.

It

would

make

no

financial sense for any other broadcaster to try and launch anything

like that

from scratch.

To be fair to

them,

they have

relocated some of

the

resources into

kind

of

Saba: online

local

news

Adam: the

BBC

news website,

which I dunno

about

Helen: you

Saba: guys,

but that's

Adam: one

of the things I, consult regularly through, through the

day

Saba: is

very,

is

has got much, much

better

on

kind

of like

targeted local news

and

stuff

like

that

Now through LDRS, haven't

they?

Adam: Yes.

The local

democracy

Saba: reporting service,

which is

one

Adam: those really unsung things the BBC actually funds Yes.

And puts out

Saba: there,

Adam: reporters who are paid for outta the

licence fee for local

Saba: all

over

the country as well.

Yes,

Adam: Who do a lot of reporting

Saba: of, of,

local

council

stuff

as well.

But if you're a young person and you know all about the creator economy and

you're into TikTok and creating content.

Are

you gonna be thinking, this sounds great, this idea, because if I produce something

and then it goes out on YouTube under the BBC banner, I might be get picked up.

I'll be the next chicken shop date, or I'll be the next people just do nothing.

Or

Adam: is

there an element of that?

I think aren't they just hoping

to get picked

up on YouTube

anyway?

And people become enormous on YouTube

anyway?

I mean the,

the, what

they, what everyone's

saying about young people

in the BBC is they're completely unaware of its sort of existence.

So whether that would even count as a kind of imper that the BBC have picked you up.

I don't

know.

I mean what's happened in the past is when streamers

have picked up

on YouTube stars, it's

tended not to work.

Mr.

Beast

who

is

enormous

on YouTube and, huge

with

young

people,

did

a big

Netflix

series,

which

they

paid.

Helen: it

was Amazon I think.

Yeah.

It was Amazon, it was

one of,

one was a big wasn't

beast.

Yeah.

And, it just, it didn't have

the

Yeah, Because

Adam: Because not

a success.

Andy annoyed YouTube

as well.

So his kind

of

place

on

their

Helen: algorithm

I

think

has suffered as well.

But

that's because

he's designed essentially

something

that is perfectly thrives in It, it's like, like a kind of animal

that's evolved on an island.

And

then as soon, 'cause he like the thumbnail and he does the YouTube

face and it's like, and he would try it in the first six seconds of it

have to be this and the grammar of

Adam: TV is completely

different.

Yeah.

Helen: I

dunno

Adam: why

you

think

those

Helen: were pulled over.

It's a different

thing,

isn't

it?

Yeah, yeah.

The bit that annoys me is that no one will make the, unethical argument for the BPC.

which is essentially, there's a reason that rt, former Russia today exists

and Vladimir Putin is happy to fund it.

And it's not because he's got a great belief of the freedom of journalism,

it's because he wants to put his point of view and Russia's point of view across.

I happen to think that the BBC's point of view, it goes wrong in many

ways, but like it is generally one that is liberal in the best sense.

It is factually grounded.

It cares about accuracy.

I think that is the kind of thing that democratically is really important to us.

Yeah.

We should be putting out propaganda for the truth

essentially.

Like that's the best way

of describing

it.

but they lost

that

argument

with the

World

service,

which is wild to me.

Do you want people in developing countries where it's really hard, often living

under very corrupt regimes to be getting their news from a Chinese news service

or, co content creators on TikTok?

Or do you want

' em

to be listening to the

World Service

like

it, it is obviously

helps our place in the world if it's

Andy: world

service

and

they

just lost

that argument.

Helen: There

is

a

Andy: weird

element

to the.

The way

the BBC is discussed in the uk,

which is that it's totally

parochial to the UK and doesn't

consider the

massive

global

footprint

and the, I think BB

is one of the most trusted news

organisations around

the

entire

world.

Yeah.

And

Helen: we're

Andy: fixated

on

celebrity traders or whatever,

or

a

problem with strictly or

whatever it

might be.

Helen: But there is a version where that could work with the YouTube thing in a

sense of putting more of their content online because already there is now,

there are now adverts, and pay gates on

the BBC

website abroad, for example.

So there is

an assumption that actually you and Britain get a better level of service

in the BBC than everybody else.

So you could have a similar thing

where it

Adam: was

geo locked

Saba: you

put

some

of the

content

on

YouTube.

actually,

Adam: everything

is

up for grounds

in this charter renewal thing.

the, consultation, which is now closed, but one of

the things

we proposing

that is should there

just be

Saba: advertising on

the bbc,

Adam: which would be a way of funding it.

advertising the market has pretty much dropped out because everyone would just

fast forward through the adverts now.

But, so

Saba: there there are problems with

that model

as

well,

Helen: before we go, can we talk about somebody

who has made exactly that

decision that the YouTube is the

future versus

the bbc, which

is

Amal

Raja.

He

spoke in Edinburgh, didn't he?

And

said Yeah.

he's launched, what's

his new venture

Andy: called?

Is

it called

Amal

Rajan

Connect

Adam: Connection?

Saba: Yes.

The

Ammo

Rajan connection.

Helen: Like

the

Adam: Connection

Saba: in

the

Muppets

the

French

Adam: connection.

True.

the Rotary

Helen: connection.

He's

The,

musical.

He's musical.

okay.

Adam: What he said in Edinburgh was, I've always been a bit behind the curve.

I've always been basically

Saba: in areas of rapid

Adam: and

accelerating decline.

'cause he started off

in newspapers.

Famously,

Saba: the

Independent, which went

Helen: hang on.

Saba: Online only I tell

you something?

So it's common

denominator.

That's

Helen: funny.

Adam: We battle I

fought

in,

Saba: we be lost.

Helen: Army, we lost,

Andy: There was something a bit strange about, ' cause his, he was saying, he

said some very nice words about the

BBC in

his speech, but the

ones which were picked up on were the ones where he said

the

BBC is screwed

unless

it completely

changes and it's in fact destined to decline at an accelerating rate.

His words.

and I did think it was strange seeing him interviewed by George

Osborne on the political currency podcast talking about the decline in

print

newspapers.

' cause

I thought,

hang on,

you draw off on, edited

the

Adam: evening

Andy: at a time when it was

Adam: on

Andy: slide doing

Saba: disastrously.

And

I think, made a

hell of a

lot

worse.

But he

made reference that didn't, he said something like, I

came

Andy: at

Adam: tail

end

of

Saba: it when it

was on

the

turn.

No,

Helen: on.

The words that effect.

stop.

I

put

the last

Adam: final

Andy: stake

through the

heart.

Adam: can I just also point

out, George Osmond was also the man who

took away funding for

the

b BBC

World Service.

Saba: It was used

to

be

funded

by the

foreign

Adam: office.

Oh.

and

Saba: country with the

Helen: with the

Andy: main, big, so there's this thing of doing it solo, clearly the

idea that you'll be the next Gary Lineker and you'll, make millions

of pounds with your brilliant show ideas is incredibly appealing.

And it can sometimes work.

it did feel,

the

goal hanger shows it doesn't always work.

the

Harry and

Meghan

Empire, I

know they're not,

Helen: brilliant media

brains maybe, but

Andy: clearly

hasn't worked.

Helen: Yeah, there is

a thing I think where

people, sometimes they

say, I think of them as cashing out, like they, they, use the b BBC

platform to build themselves up, right?

And just being on

Radio four first thing in the morning, or BBC

Adam: one

on

primetime

Helen: an incredible gift.

And I wonder sometimes

people sometimes overestimate the, amount that the audience is built

to them versus people are just interested in what's on at the time.

a counterpoint would be someone like Adrian Charles, whose version of the

one show was incredible and very well loved, and then went to ITV and the

alchemy just wasn't there anymore.

You can't just necessarily pluck someone out of one format and tar

channel an audience into something else.

And, they're the only bit of it that

makes

it

Adam: work.

It's

all

those

Helen: around them.. it's not

Adam: offer the cautionary

tale of Andrew Neil,

who

walked

away

from

a very

high profile

gig at the

b

bbc where

he

did all

the

kind

of big

election interviews and,

political

programmes

to GB

News

where he lasted two

weeks,

discovered

that

there was

no

money

behind

it, no

production team

behind

it.

And

actually people

didn't want to go on GB

news, particularly

this,

this

kind

of

new,

as it

was then

kind of upstart

channel with

very

Andy: few

viewers.

and, and

it

all ended

horribly.

Is there

a

predictor of

when

these things will

or

won't

Adam: work?

I'm

trying to

draw

a

common

thread

out.

I

think

it's a bit like the

movie

Andy: industry,

isn't

it?

where famously

Helen: no

one knows

Adam: anything,

Helen: I'd be really interested to see what Amal does because I

think that interview

podcast circuit is quite saturated

now.

everybody's

doing one.

that was what Meghan tried to do.

It was Meghan talks to Serena Williams, like you, and, therefore the, the,

counter generates it and that's cheap

compared with

highly produced,

radio four documentary style stuff.

Yeah.

So it'll be, it's, I think he's gonna give it a good go though because I,

if, I dunno

if you ever follow his Instagram account, but he has leaned

into being an influencer in

a way that somebody of pretty much the same age, I can't quite bring myself to

do.

I dunno.

if I feel it's belief, my dignity

I don't

Saba: much what you need, Helen.

You

Helen: need an avatar.

You

Saba: a retro

funk and

soul

Helen: avatar

of

yourself.

which I can't

Saba: me working though.

Helen: of me working out though, which I just,

some of me

revolts

against it.

Andy: one element I do think is fun is that if you have just slagged off

the B

Adam: in

quite

Andy: a

big

way,

the

week

Helen: before

you

leave

Adam: your

leaving drinks are

gonna

Helen: terrific.

Adam: Yeah.

But the Can

I

just make

two points about the

charter renewal

Saba: thing.

One

Adam: the presence of James Pernille now in number 10 as one of, Andy Burnham's

right hand man.

Now, James Pernille

famously was cabinet minister

long ago

at

the

same

time

as

Andy

Burnham,

Then

went to

the BBC and was

a

very

senior

executive

there

was

in

the

running

to

be

director

general.

I think

the

time

that

Tim

Davy got the job,

Andy: Mm-hmm.

Adam: and then

left

the B

BBC

and

has

been

doing various

other things.

there,

there's a man with

some

interest

and

experience

at

the

B bbc.

he talked

back

then when

he was at the

BBC

about

a

public

service algorithm,

which

is one of

those things there's a

load

of words that sort

of

sound impressive together,

but

I'm not,

no

one's

quite

sure

what

any

of

them mean.

But

apparently

that's one

of

the,

one

of

the

things that's

now

being

punted round

in

the

thinking

about

this.

And

the other

thing is the

kind of pr battle

the the

Beaver doing

at the

moment, which

is

where they

announce every

so often

that they're cutting something

sort

of

high profile.

And it really struck me that first

of all, they came for

the

broad sheet readers and they said, no, sorry, the World

Tonight is going from Radio

four and everyone howled.

And then they came back a couple of weeks later and said, yeah, no, blankety

blank and Celebrity Mastermind and live at the Apollo, they're going as well.

Now none of these are

desperately expensive things.

the Wall Tonight

was

produced out

of

a,

a

joint

newsroom with various

other Radio

four

programmes,

celebrity Mastermind.

you

got

the chair

already.

So there's a sort of chipping away at high profile things, I think, but

so that people will feel the hurt along the way and hopefully come

Andy: back in say the

Helen: BBC should have more

money and more

funding.

But Lively probably was an interesting test case 'cause there was a bit

backlash that from comedians, but the comedy scene has changed so much that

actually people have managed to build really big, you won't know anything

about this, Andy people have managed to build really big followings online or

either through doing their own podcasts, something like, like a Shane Gilli

or a Vitori Angel, people like that.

Or through crowd work clips, which do incredibly well on, on social media.

And I think there was

a feeling with that one that was just that

I think

sometimes BBC has to go,

do we need

to

help comedians at the start of their careers anymore actually,

that ecosystem looks relative.

People want to go and see live comedy.

That ecosystem is actually working quite well.

But you are right.

They do just go,

Adam: oh, nice

Helen: night.

You've got there.

Shame, if anything were to

Andy: happen to

it

Helen: just to

Andy: okay, that's it

for this episode of page 94.

Thank you so much for listening or watching.

Thank you to Adam Sabot and Helen, if you would like to get hold of

a copy

of Private Eye, they're on sale,

they're

actually

just

sold

in shops,

but

if you want one delivered to your home,

you

can get a subscription@privatehighforna.co.uk.

It's less

than any

streaming service

I can

think of.

Substantially

less

actually,

and contains more good stuff.

Saba: And

it's

all

Andy: lawyered

very heavily.

it

really has absolutely

everything you might want.

So

that's

private.co uk for subscriptions.

We'll be back in a fortnight with another episode of this show.

It only remains to thank Matt Hill

Saba: of Rethink

Andy: for producing this one.

Bye

for now.