>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today I'm speaking to Grace.

She's speaking about her experience of being born

Catholic and in Ireland and encountering Jesus in

a new way through a non denominational church and

then finding her way back to Catholicism with a

deeper understanding.

Alongside her reconversion story, Grace is sharing

what it's like being a young Black Catholic in the

UK and being part of spaces where she often feels

like she's in the minority. So, Grace, what was it

like growing up in Ireland where Catholicism was

part of the culture?

>> Grace: Yeah, it was, it was really interesting. Like, my

family, my parents weren't practising Catholics,

my dad was raised Catholic, my mum wasn't. Um, and

so I didn't really have Catholicism at home, but I

really interacted with it at school. So, like I

went to Catholic school, you know, did all my

sacraments there. And so Catholicism was just

like, it was just a normal thing. Like, I didn't

really think about it was just like, I don't know,

just, just part of everything. And, um, more so

like a cultural thing, I feel like.

>> Julia: Yeah, you mentioned that your mum was Catholic,

but your dad. No, the other way around. You

mentioned that your dad was Catholic but your mom

wasn't. How did their, like, experience of faith

shape you?

>> Grace: So my dad, he grew up Catholic, but he stopped

believing even before I was born. So he goes to

Mass once a year on Christmas. So, like, that's

it. So I think even just witnessing that, seeing

how he didn't really practise, it just made me

influenced how I saw Catholicism. I was like,

okay, it's not really that serious. And then my

mom, she, you know, was raised Protestant and she

would like go to church on and off and sometimes

she'd take me with her but it wasn't a consistent

thing. So I think that kind of influenced how I

saw a relationship with God. Like it's not a

consistent thing, it's just kind of like whenever

you feel like it, I guess. Yeah.

>> Julia: So then how did you end up going to church more

regularly?

>> Grace: Mhm. Yeah.

So I, When I was 10, my mom and I moved to London.

Um, and essentially I was not going to church at

all for like a number of years. And then I was

just, you know, teenager, like struggling with

certain things, like, you know, mental health,

stuff like that. And my friend invited me to her

non denominational church. So I was like, okay,

let me give like God a try again. Started going to

church with her and just kind of got really sucked

into it. And um, we started going really

regularly. You know, we had a group chat, we were

like praying outside, you know, went to church

multiple times a week. So yeah, I was just like in

that rhythm, like very quickly. Yeah.

>> Julia: Is that because it kind of gave you a sense of

community?

>> Grace: Yeah, I think community was definitely part of it.

Like they had, yeah, we had like groups, you know,

they had like leaders, like youth leaders. So I

had someone, she was checking in on me like all

the time. And I think at this church they really

emphasised like having a relationship with Jesus,

which I hadn't really encountered before in

Catholicism. And so that was very new to me. And I

think, yeah, I was just really enjoying that and

just getting to know God more. So I just kept

coming back. Yeah.

>> Julia: And how did that essays of growing up in London

then differ from your experience of Ireland?

>> Grace: Yeah, uh, well, firstly, London's so much busier.

Uh, just like lots more people. I mean, I didn't

grow up in the city, so I'm a bit of a country

girl, like from Ireland. Um, and I think, yeah,

London, you just have like, lots of, it's really

multicultural, like lots of different people with

lots of different cultures and religions. And

obviously you have a bit of that in Ireland, but

Ireland's more like very white and everyone's like

culturally Catholic and you know, that's kind of

the culture there. So London was like, okay, like

if I want Jesus, if I want God, like I have to

seek him out and I have to actually go out of my

way to like go to church and that kind of thing.

So I think it made me more intentional in my

faith.

>> Julia: Yeah, so it sounds like you really were getting a

lot from the experience of going to the non

denominational church. So then what drew you back

to the Catholic Church?

>> Grace: Honestly, the Testimony is crazy.

It was purely God. Like, I was like in the non

denominational church for like six months, really

loving it, like, really getting active and all

that. Um, and then I remember, like, after, like

after a certain point, I would be like, in Sunday

service and I would just start to, like, really

miss mass. I just felt this feeling inside of me,

like, I'm not meant to be here. And that was

really weird because, like, growing up, like, when

I did go to mass, I found it boring. It was a bit

of a drag. I didn't really know what was going on,

you know. So now all of a sudden, like, I'm really

missing it and being feeling pulled back to it.

And I was like, that's kind of strange. Like, I

didn't even like masks growing up, you know. And

also, like, at this church, they were a bit anti

Catholic, so they would say things about the

Catholic Church, like, oh, you know, Catholics

worship Mary, Catholics do that. And so when I

initially started having this, like, pullback to

the church, I was a bit wary of that. And I was a

bit like, oh, like, maybe this is like from the

enemy. Like, um. And so I started doing my

research into what does the Catholic Church

actually teach. Um, my mind was blown, right. And

my mom was blown. Like, I learned about the

Eucharist and all this kind of stuff and. And I

was like, just, you know, with prayer as well, of

course. Um, that feeling just grew stronger and

stronger and I just felt like, okay, I've got to

go back.

>> Julia: So. So how old were you roughly when this was all

happening?

>> Grace: It's like 16. Wow.

>> Julia: Yeah, that's such a strong feeling to have at that

age as well.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: So was there a particular moment for you where,

like, Catholicism just clicked?

>> Grace: Yeah. So I think, like, you know, I almost didn't

want to go back to Catholicism because, like you

said, like, I had this great community at this

church. And also they were a bit anti Catholic. So

I was a bit worried about what they would think of

me, like, if I went back to Catholicism. I was

like, oh, maybe they would, like, cut me off or

that kind of thing. So I almost didn't want it to

be true. And I almost was like, fighting it this

feeling for a while. And I remember, um, it was

December of 2021, so I went back to Ireland

because my dad still lives in Ireland, so went

back to visit my dad for Christmas and I read

Trent Horn's book, why We're Catholic. And then I

remember I was reading that and I finished it on,

like, Christmas morning and Then my dad and I went

to mass on Christmas morning because when I goes

to mass on Christmas, I think that Christmas Mass,

especially after having finished that book, I was

just like, something clicked. And I was like,

okay, I can't fight this anymore. I've got to uh,

you know, who, like, who cares what they say? Like

this is for me, I've got to make that decision. So

yeah.

>> Julia: So what do you think you've discovered now that

when you were a child, when you, because you

described mass as being something boring and so

you were a bit surprised when you wanted to go

back there that it was gonna be something relevant

to you. What, what have you discovered now that

you appreciate more than when you were younger?

>> Grace: Yeah, so I think when I was younger and even when

I started going to the non denominational church,

my mind was very much like, okay, Catholicism,

like you don't have a relationship with Jesus in

Catholicism, it's more so like, you know, you just

go to Mass, like whatever, you get the sacraments.

And so now I very much appreciated how the

sacraments and the Mass, like all of that is for

that relationship. And so like there's a phrase

that like people used to say in my old church,

they would say like relationship over religion.

And I really don't like that that phrase. I

actually think like relationship through religion

makes more sense. And so all the things that we

have in, you know, Catholicism, the sacraments,

like confession and the Mass and all these things,

like I'm now starting to appreciate how they're

all for like communion with Jesus and how they all

serve that purpose. And so actually it's literally

the opposite of like what I thought right when I

was in that nondomychild church. So. Yeah. Mm.

>> Julia: So for some people, I know that they struggle with

the Catholic Church or the idea of that you go to

mass weekly and masking kind of seem the same

thing, a bit boring. And I think that's from a not

understanding what happens in mass.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: What would you say to somebody in, in that

situation?

>> Grace: Mhm. Yeah, been there. I think definitely it's

what you just said about understanding what

happens in Mass. If you don't understand what

happens in mass, it's just like, why are we doing

the same thing? What's even happening? But when I

learned about Mass, about like the fact the

sacrifice of Jesus being made present, like you

could never get bored of that. And I'm now I'm a

daily mass goer so I go to mass every day and it

doesn't get tiring because it's like, how could I

get bored of this? And, yeah, I think just the

beauty of it. And honestly, the more I go to

Massa, the more like, little things. I'm like, oh,

I didn't notice that. Or like, oh, I'm reading my

Bible. I'm like, oh, yeah, we say that at Mass. Or

like, this is kind of like. And you just realise

how everything is so intentional. And so it's

like. It's honestly like a treasure. It's like you

just. Every day you go and you just. Or every

week, you know, however, you know, you savour it

and something. It's something to be enjoyed. So

that's what I would say, like, do more research,

like, learn, maybe talk to your priest or

whatever, and read a book or watch YouTube videos,

tonnes of stuff online to learn more about the

Mass. Yeah.

>> Julia: So while you were having this change of heart, I

think you said your mum was going through

something similar.

>> Grace: Yeah, so while I was coming back to church, my mom

actually joined rtia and she actually was learning

to become Catholic.

Um, and so, I don't know, maybe part of that was

my witness of, like, going to church. I think also

she had, um, made a friend. Made a friend with

someone who was, like, very Catholic and he was

kind of encouraging her, um, to join the church.

And so she did. And there was. I mean, she

doesn't. She started working on Sundays and she

stopped going to Mass. But there was a period of

time where we were going to Mass together. And

that was so special to me because, yeah, growing

up, we never went to Mass or anything like that.

Um, and so even now, like, even though she doesn't

go anymore, like, when I go or when I can talk

about Catholic things, I'm going to adoration, I'm

going to this. I'm like, she knows and she

encourages because she's gone through RCA and she

knows what the church teaches and she still has a

great love and appreciation for it. So.

>> Julia: Yeah, Effy, so why do you describe yourself as a

revert rather than a convert?

>> Grace: Yeah, I describe myself as a revert because I was

born into the church. You know, sometimes people

ask me, like, oh, you're a cradle Catholic? And I

guess the answer is yes, but I'm like, I'm not

really a cradle Catholic in the sense that, like,

I didn't really grow up with the faith, but. But I

don't think it's right to just because I didn't

grow up going to Mass kind of diminish the

sacraments that I did have as a kid. Because I

think now when I look back and I think about my

reversion, I think about, like, the grace that was

given to me at, uh, my baptism when I was a baby,

at my first Holy Communion, that I think it's

almost that. That led me back to the Church.

Right. So that was like. Those sacraments were

like, they. I don't know, like they had power,

essentially. And so even though, yeah, I grew up,

you know, a large part of my childhood, not really

practising as a Catholic, I still was a Catholic

by virtue of my baptism and first Holy Communion.

And so essentially, this is me coming back, isn't

it?

>> Julia: So when you came back, did you have. Because if

you do rcia, as you'll know, with your mum, you

normally have, like, uh, a particular Mass where

there's. You have your. Either your baptism if

you're not being baptised, or you'll have your

confirmation. But imagine, had you. If you've

already had those accrements, did you just go back

to a normal Sunday Mass and just carried on?

>> Grace: Yeah. So it was really interesting. There was no,

like, grand moment or, like, grand welcome or,

like, you know, so I just kind of. I just slipped

in, you know, the back of the chair. I used to,

like, sit at the back. Now I'm like, front pew

kind of girl. But, you know, at the beginning I

was like, back pew and just kind of like your

Mass. And no one around me knows that, like, this

is my first Mass in, like, how many years? Right.

But it was nice, though, because I did have. I did

go to confession after, like, you know, so many

years. And, you know, I told the priest, of

course, oh, this is my, you know, bless me,

Father, for I've sinned. I haven't been to

confession, like, eight years. And he's like,

what? And so he was very much like, welcome home.

So I did have that. That moment. That was really

nice. But then after that, it was just like, yeah,

I just continued to go to Sunday Mass and. But it

was completely different. Right. It almost felt

like this is not how I remembered Mass, because

obviously now I've got this new knowledge and

awareness of what's actually happening. I was

like, well, this is crazy

>> Julia: because I think I'm thinking about with that

experience where nobody welcomed you back home

until the priesthood and confession.

I think that's one of the criticisms that you

often find in the Catholic Church is that, um,

we're not very welcoming to new people or even. I

mean, I've been going to the parish, I go to now

for nearly a year. And I think about one person

sees me every week and says hello. And apart from

that, I recognise people, but I don't have the

same relationship. Like as you talked about, you

were going to the non denominational church for

six months, but you had that sense of community in

that.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: Uh, is there something that parishes can do to be

more welcoming?

>> Grace: Yeah, definitely, definitely. This was a big

struggle of mine, um, you know, going back to

Catholicism because, yeah, my community at, uh, my

non denominational church, they didn't cut me off.

Like, I was scared, but. Oh. But obviously it was

different. I wasn't going to church anymore. So,

you know, we kind of. Eventually that friendship,

those friendships faded away and Mass was just,

you know, it felt very cold in comparison. Um, and

I was so used to having people like, walk with me

in my faith and kind of like pray together and do

Bible studies together and all this kind of stuff

to not having that at all. Um, and so I definitely

think parishes need to improve on that. And you

know, because I think what if someone is learning

about Catholicism and, you know, they stumble into

a Catholic church and I'm just curious about it

and no, like, nobody's there to like, essentially

like, catch those people. Right, and actually show

them. And of course you can do research and you

can learn about the faith, but it's so different

to actually have someone share their personal. Oh,

this is how, you know, I view Mass or this kind of

stuff with these little nuggets or these little

things that you might not find on Google, you

know, so I definitely think that faith is meant to

be communal and it's. And yeah, like, especially

like Catholicism, like we're having the Eucharist

that's meant to unite us right, as one body. And

so. But actually in reality you can feel not very

united. And so I honestly think that's a problem

that we have in the church at the moment.

Yeah.

>> Julia: So then what was it like specifically being a

young Black Catholic in a UK church or even in

Ireland?

>> Grace: Yeah, I think I can't say too much about an island

because I just wasn't really, you know, very in my

Catholic identity then. But, you know, when I had

my reversion back to church, that was in 2022. And

so later that year I, um, went to uni and, you

know, my Catholic chaplaincy, like, my uni, you

know, very white. I remember, like going to

Catholic chaplaincies, trying to find community,

like young people. I was really excited. Um, and

it just didn't really click for me. I'm not saying

that's because they were white. Right. But I think

there was something about going there and like,

being the only Black person and not really finding

anyone that looked like me or, you know, had a

similar background to me. Because obviously that

does influence, like, how well you can relate to

people and that kind of thing. Um, and so that,

you know, was hard and kind of like, in. In

contrast, like, the. The young Black people, young

Black Christians I was seeing were very like, um,

Pentecostal, you know, Protestant. And so I

started going to a bit of those groups. I mean,

obviously in my heart, like, I knew. I really. I

really done that. So I knew, okay, I'm Catholic,

I'm not going to go back there again.

But just for the community aspect, it did kind of

grieve my heart a bit that, like, obviously we

shared Christianity, which is really beautiful,

and we did Bible studies and all that, and that

was lovely. But I did wish that, like, I had those

kind of friendships, like in the Catholic Church.

And so definitely, like, it's a lot better now.

And definitely I'm meeting more Black Catholics.

And especially now that I'm, you know, able to go

to London and stuff, it's a lot more diverse.

But it's definitely something that I've been

wrestling with for a bit.

>> Julia: I think there's often a conversation about how do

we get younger people into the Catholic Church?

How do we make them feel involved? Because there

is that stereotype thing. A lot of Catholic

churches, particularly in England and Wales, that

we're. It's an older generation who are at church.

And so you can turn up and be like, the only young

person there.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: I guess for you, there's the other thing of if

you're the only person who's Black at the church,

that adds, uh, that barrier. How. What's it like

in the church you're. Right now?

>> Grace: Yeah, so now I'm living in Kent. Um, so the parish

in my town in Kent, pretty small parish, honestly.

Um, mainly older generation and kind of like young

families. And it's actually. There's actually a

good number of, like, Black people. So it's not

that same situation, uni, where I'm like the only

Black person. But it's still. I still don't really

feel connected to the community. Like, you know,

they kind of not just the Black people, like,

honestly, the people in general, but obviously the

Black people are included in this. Just kind of go

to mass on Sunday and then disappear very quickly

afterwards. And so that's it. And so I'm still

Kind of struggling with this community. And I'm

essentially going into London a lot to try and go

to young adults events and that kind of thing. So

that's where I'm at currently.

>> Julia: Yeah, I mean, that is a frustration, I think, in

every parish in, in the country of having people

actually getting involved and not just turning up

for Mass. And I mean that of every, like every

person. Not just specifically Black people.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: But just having people actually coming along to a

rosary group or a church event, etc. Like, there's

a lack of involvement.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: From Catholics. It's generally just, uh, like

happening on a. You come on a Sunday, you come to

your Mass and then that's your involvement with

the parish for the week, which is go very

different again to going back to your experience

of when you're involved in a non denominational.

But I guess there's also the, the challenge of if

you don't feel represented in that church, why

would you then put your time and effort in that

church? Because I know for you, you are involved

in your church, so what makes you do that?

>> Grace: Yeah, for me it's the love of Catholicism. Right.

And because I see that need, I see that, you know,

I want the community to be better and so I want to

be involved. Um, you know, I'm talking to my

priest. How can we do more things? And so for me

it's like a love for the church and like, this is

something I pray about a lot, honestly, like this

feeling of like, coldness in the church. And so,

yeah, I love the faith and it's my dream to see us

more like, united just, you know, in generally as

a community.

And so I'm gonna get involved, I'm gonna try to do

what I can, essentially. Yeah.

>> Julia: Uh, so you talk about your love of church. Is

there any particular element of the church that

you love? Like, because obviously we've been

talking about your experience in the uk, but when

you go more wider, more global, that's a very

different experience of, um, even what we've just

been talking about, about people's involvement.

When I've travelled around the world, there's

definitely been a more involved nature in the

church as well.

>> Grace: Yeah, I really love that you said that because my

final year of uni, I did a year abroad and I was

in LA um, for a year and that was great. Honestly,

American Catholicism is so different, but also

like, so similar. I think that's what I love.

Like, I love the fact that I was able to like,

rock off to mass on that first Sunday that was

there. And, like, I'm not confused, I know

everything. It's like, obviously it's the same

Mass, right?

>> Julia: I just.

>> Grace: Yeah, the universality, of course, I love that

about the faith. Um. But, yeah, I went to the

University of Southern California, so, you know,

we kind of had a campus ministry there. Very, very

active, very involved. They have more, like,

Catholic organisations like this focus that have,

like, missionaries. There's more, like, mission

culture in the us so definitely they were very

active. I got active, like, involved with them.

And so that was. And honestly, that really, like,

I think, honestly me coming back and like, trying

to be involved in my parish was kind of. Was born

of, like, what I experienced there, Right. And

wanting to bring that back, essentially. Right.

And so that really. That really formed me a lot

like that experience in L. A. Um. But I just love

how it's the same church, it's the same faith and

they were asking, oh, what's Catholicism like in

the uk? And just, you know, being able to talk

about similarity and differences. So that was

really lovely.

>> Julia: So what can churches in the UK learn from your

experience?

>> Grace: Yeah, I think. I think in, um. I've noticed that,

like, in the uk, I don't know, I was thinking

about this. I don't know if it's because of, like,

our history, right? There was a time where

Catholics were heavily persecuted, right, in the

UK and essentially, like, you have to keep it

quiet, you know, and so I don't know if it's. It's

from that. That we still have that mindset of,

like, Catholicism is only for me. I shouldn't, you

know, let me not go out and tell other people

about it. Like, it's just for me. Let me just, you

know, where I feel like in America it's very much

more, I don't know, free for all, like, oh, I'm

Catholic and I love it. I'm going to tell you

about it. And I don't think that should be an

American thing because, you know, firstly in

Scripture, like, we're called to go out and share

our faith. Right. But, yeah, I don't know if it's

even just like, more British culture, Like, we're

a bit more like. I don't know, we're more like

quiet or. I know Americans are more outgo. A more

extra in general, Right. There's obviously a

generalisation, of course, but I don't know, I

think the culture does influence and I think we

just. I think the church just needs to be more.

Just more bold. I think it's just a lack of

boldness, right? More bold and going out and

opening the doors and. Okay, when we think about

people coming in, how are we like welcoming them?

How are we like catching them? Like people going

through rcia, okay, when they finish and they

become Catholic, are they just left by themselves?

You know, like what happens after that? And so I

think we just to think about this more.

>> Julia: Have you got experience of the church elsewhere?

>> Grace: Yeah. So, um, I actually went to. So I'm Nigerian

and I went to Nigeria for the first time a couple

years ago and it was really important to me that I

went to Mass. I got my dad to drive me and he

didn't go with me, but I went. And that was

insane. That was really. So, um, I'm emailed. I

like my tribe. And so the mass was. I missed the

English Mass. I went to Mass in Igbo. So that was

even its whole thing. And it was so special. It

was so, so special. The hymns were in Igbo, you

know, seeing everyone dress in the cultural attire

and that, I just, honestly, I can't describe the

feeling, like in my spirit of just feeling that

like, obviously unity of like my culture, which is

so precious to me and my faith, which is also so

precious to me. And seeing that, I think that was

quite transformative for me because before I felt

that kind of culture and faith had to be separate.

Right. And honestly, even now, like, you know, I

love like Latin in the Mass. I'm not saying that

like, you know, all the mass has to be all the

cultural instruments, all that kind of stuff, but

I kind of just. My culture was just something

different with my non Catholic friends. And then,

okay, Catholic churches, like I go and it's just

like very like white and like everything's in

Latin and like that's it. Right. And so having

that bridge was just like, oh, like actually these

two things can connect. And that was really

transformative for me.

>> Julia: So is there a way that that can happen in the uk?

>> Grace: Yeah, yeah, I, uh, think so. I think it's

personally for me, I wouldn't even say it's about

like changing the mass or like that, that kind of

thing. But even just having, you know, something

that I love about, you know, in my non

denominational church stuff on like all throughout

the week, like, okay, worship night here, this

games night, this thing. Right. So there's other

things that can happen in a parish throughout the

week where we can come, you know, people of a

certain culture can come together and kind of, you

know, express themselves like in the way that they

normally Would like culturally. And of course they

have that shared faith as well. So obviously

Catholicism has been mixed up in that as well. Um,

I think. Yeah, I think that would be really

beautiful.

>> Julia: And I think there are places where that does

happen. Yeah, I think, of course, my old parish in

Brixton, like, they're um, like 11 o' clock mass

or sometime around that time of day, they would

have different choirs who would like, have

singing, different music. And so you would get

this different representation of different

cultures. Um, because it would be a different. It

wouldn't be a different. It would be like the

first one choir one month at one week and then the

next.

>> Grace: Okay.

>> Julia: Like the first week of the month would be one

choir. The second week of the month would be a

different choir. And so you'd get this different

representation of the different cultures inside

the church.

And I, I guess that's a lot easier to do in

London, where you do get a diverse range of

people. Where you might not get that out in Kent,

which is somewhere you're living now as well. So

why is finding your people important when you're

growing in your faith?

>> Grace: Yeah, I think it's important because like I said

earlier, I think faith is meant to be done

communally. Right. Like, that's just scriptural,

you know, like you look at Acts of the Apostles,

like they were meeting in homes, you know,

fellowship. They devoted themselves to breaking

the bread, that kind of stuff. And as many verses

in Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, it talks about needing

a brother. Iron sharpens iron, you know, this kind

of stuff, whatever. So. And obviously, as people

like our culture and like, who we are is very, uh,

uh, you know, it's a part of who we are. And, and

so I'm gonna. And with faith, like, I want to be.

I need to be very deep friends with someone so,

you know, I can share these kind of things. We can

pray together, that kind of stuff. And so that's

not going to happen if I haven't found my people.

Right. And so, yeah, I don't know. Obviously I

know that like, with friendships, you know, you

don't have to find everything in one specific

friend, but I think it's also important for

different aspects of yourself to overlap, like in

a friendship. Right. And so honestly, it's like a

prayer point of mine now. I want a strong Nigerian

Catholic girl like that, a friend, you know,

because then those parts of me can unite in that.

And I think the friendship would be just so deep

and special that way

>> Julia: I, I can understand that, like, desire to want

Somebody who's a friend that kind of matches you.

I.

Thinking back to, like, when I was, like, my

friends when I started university. And, um,

particularly, like, I made good friends for me, I

made good friends when I was in the chaplaincy.

And one of my. My best friends is that the person

I met then, but she lives, like, further away from

me, so I don't see her every day. And I've been

having, like, conversations with my husband about

how I want to find some good, like, Catholic

friends who are of my, like, similar age, closer

to where I'm living so that I can kind of have

those deeper conversations about faith with them

and update. Because it won't surprise you that I

don't tell everything on this podcast, right,

like, so I can have those deeper conversations

with that friend and they be consistently, like,

there and there is that real, like, needing to.

The real need inside of people to feel like you

belong and you have a group of friends. And it

doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be in

that area of. With everybody in your parish. You

need to be best friends, but there is the need to

have, like, that one particular person.

>> Grace: Yeah, you reminded me of. Yeah, I also made a

lovely friend, um, during my time at university

that I met through the. Through the chaplaincy.

Um, and, you know, she's white, so I'm not. I

don't want to sound like I'm saying, oh, my gosh,

I need you. You know, you only have to be friends

with Black people if you're Black and that kind of

thing. You know, she's white. We, you know, we

pray for each other. We very much, like God is at

the centre of our friendship and I'm so, so

grateful for her. Shout out to you, Susanna, I

love you.

Um, but also I think there's still just that

obviously, like, as like a Nigerian girl. And, you

know, my Nigerian identity is so close to me.

Obviously there's certain aspects of that that I

can't share with. With that friend. And just that

need of. Not necessarily to say that she's not

enough or anything like that, like she fully is,

but just that because my culture, my, um, identity

is so, you know, integral to who I am and my

faith, there has to be somewhere that I can

essentially let that out or somewhere where that

can come out essentially. And so that's why it's

important. Well, I think it's important, yeah.

>> Julia: And I think there is something about your. Your

friend has her own life and things going on for

her that she. She can't always be there for you

24, seven as well.

>> Grace: Right.

>> Julia: So it's good to have a group of friends who, yeah,

ah, have different experiences that you can relate

to and they can relate to what you're going

through as well.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: So what would you say to someone who is curious

about returning to the church but not sure if it's

the right thing for them right now?

>> Grace: M. Well, I would definitely encourage them. Right.

Of course. Um, to. For me, when I was like, in

that stage of like, you know, should I, like, you

know, discerning essentially whether or not I

should go, I was. I was going to Mass, I was going

to like, weekday Masses, so not Sunday Masses,

just, you know, and it wasn't. It didn't have to

be this big thing of like, okay, I'm definitely

going to return to Catholicism, but just going

back, back and just like experiencing that, um, as

well as prayer. I think prayer is very, very

important. Like, I just think God was so faithful

that he led me back. Right. It's not because I did

all the research and. Oh, yes. You know, but he.

His hand was over that process. Right. So if

you're curious about the faith and returning back

or, you know, you're a bit unsure, like, give it

to God. And I'm sure that, like, God will take

care of that, but also take the steps that you can

do. So maybe God can work through that. So maybe

it's going to a weekday Mass or evening Mass, and

then God's gonna really touch your heart at that

Mass. Right.

But if you don't go, or, you know, doing your

research, learning a bit more and then actually

being, you know, enchanted by, you know, the

beauty and the theology and all that kind of

stuff. So definitely do the practical things and

just let God work through that, you know, in his

own timing, I would say. Yeah.

>> Julia: And I found it interesting because earlier you

mentioned that you sometimes go or have been to

like, a Latin Mass. And for some people that might

be where they feel comfortable jumping straight

into, but for other people that might not be where

they're at. And it is always, I would say, like,

it's also about remembering that there's such a

variety in the Catholic Church, which you can go

to any Mass and you'll know what's going on.

>> Grace: Yeah.

>> Julia: But there's a variety of experiences of people who

are there and it's good to work out what. What you

want. Where you want to go and what you want to be

part of as well.

>> Grace: Yeah, of course.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you'd known earlier about

being young, Black and Catholic?

>> Grace: Yeah, I wish I knew that I belong and like I don't

have to hide my blackness or anything like that in

both spaces, like in, in Catholic spaces. But also

if I'm in like a predominantly like Black

Pentecostal space, I don't have to have my

Catholicism. M. Actually so these things aren't

like in conflict with, with each other. Right. And

there is a space for me and it's not incoherent

and it's not weird and I don't have to choose

between, you know that. So yeah, I wish I just

knew that. It's totally fine. It's totally okay.

Um, and yeah, there's a space for me.

>> Julia: I love that. Earlier you mentioned when you first

were considering coming back to the church, your,

one of your concerns was whether you'd get

rejected or disowned or whatever word you want to

use from your non ah denominational community. But

actually you said since that um, they didn't. And

so you as yourself and I think several things

we've talked about today, you, you talked about

bridges but I think you're a bridge in yourself in

terms of like that non denominational community

and Catholicism or just your different cultures

and your different experiences that you're

bridging people together.

>> Grace: So yeah, uh, because that's something that God's

been revealing to me that I'm like wow. Because

even like during university like I got really

involved with a Christian fellowship community

that was you know, majority like you know,

Protestants, like low church Protestants and some

people like had preconceptions about Catholicism

and when me, to me like for example they were oh

grace, wow. Like you read your Bible or oh grace,

wow. You. I didn't know Catholics did that, you

know and so I started to realise that okay, God's

kind of have me, you know, kind of be. Act as a

bridge and I really love that. I just honestly

love that um, that you know, kind of walls are

falling down, barriers are falling down people.

I'm not saying I'm like the bridge between you

know, Protestantism and Cathol, but I think this,

you know, kind of not kind of even speaks to just

like more broader like Christian unity and like

you know, ecumenism like in the wider Christian

church. Which is also something that's really

important to me. So.

>> Julia: So what are you grateful for?

>> Grace: Oh, what am I grateful for? I, you know, the first

thing that comes to my mind when you say that is

my mom. Like I just love my family. I was having a

great time with my mom yesterday, just chit

chatting and I was like this woman is my bestie. I

love her. So really grateful for the family that

God has blessed me with.

>> Julia: Thank you for joining us.

>> Grace: Um thank you so much for having me.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

of the way Grace shared about her love for

Catholicism, her different experiences of it and

how she's involved with it despite sometimes not

having that feeling of belonging. How about you?

We'd love to hear how Grace's story resonated with

you and why not also tell us if you're facing an

experience you wish you knew how to look at

differently. It might just be something you can

help with. You can find out more about this and

other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again

for listening. I hope you'll join me again next

time on Things I Wish I Knew.