(00:00:00.715):
I have never felt more alone or less human, and I still carry that shame 10 years later.

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Hi, I'm Zawn Villines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:32.176):
Today, we're going to be talking about bioethics,

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reproductive justice,

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and our moral and ethical duties in healthcare systems and beyond.

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In the United States, healthcare is in crisis.

(00:00:42.719):
Racism is rampant,

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with roughly half of medical trainees believing racist myths about Black people.

(00:00:48.201):
The maternal mortality rate is out of control for all women,

(00:00:51.022):
with deaths now higher than they were a generation ago.

(00:00:54.302):
Trauma is everywhere and injuries are common.

(00:00:56.886):
But for Black women, the picture is especially grim.

(00:01:00.027):
Nationwide, Black women die at roughly four times the rate of white women while giving birth.

(00:01:04.689):
People entering the healthcare system often feel more abused than healed.

(00:01:08.531):
And even when the outcome is positive,

(00:01:10.312):
the lingering effects of a system that offers judgment and stigma,

(00:01:13.954):
at least as often as it offers compassion,

(00:01:16.615):
can have far-reaching and lasting impacts.

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We're going to be exploring these issues and others with the incredible Weiland Wilson.

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Before we get started,

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as always,

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I'd like to ask you to leave a positive review on your favorite podcast platform and

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or to heart react if you are listening on Substack.

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This work is entirely free and a quick review helps make it worthwhile to continue doing.

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Paid subscribers get a bonus episode each month,

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You can find all of the books I mentioned on the podcast at

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the Liberating Motherhood bookshop page Which also hosts tons

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of book recommendations and reading lists.

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Visit the page at bookshop.org slash shop slash Liberating Motherhood.

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If you want to support feminist scholarship,

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the very most helpful thing you can do is to order feminist books.

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So I hope you'll consider investing in Weiland's scholarship,

(00:02:39.170):
including her most recent book,

(00:02:40.891):
Womanist Bioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality, and Black Women's Health.

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Weiland, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

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It's such a pleasure to have you here.

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Thank you.

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I am just so excited to be here.

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It's great to talk with you.

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Well, I'm excited to have you,

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and I'm going to tell listeners a little bit about you before we go any further,

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so let me go ahead and read your bio.

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Wylandy Wilson is Associate Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity School.

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Her work lies at the intersection of religion, gender, and bioethics.

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Her academic interests also include rural bioethics and Black church studies.

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Prior to joining Duke Divinity School in 2020,

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she was a teaching faculty member at the Harvard Medical School Center for Bioethics

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and a senior fellow at the Center for the Study of World Religions

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at Harvard Divinity School.

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Professor Wilson is the former Associate Director of Education

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the Tuskegee University National Center for Bioethics in Research and Healthcare

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and former faculty member in the College of Agriculture,

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Environment, and Nutrition Science at Tuskegee University, Tuskegee, Alabama.

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She is a member of the American Academy of Religion's Bioethics

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and Religion Programs Unit Steering Committee.

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So I'm so happy to have you here, and I loved your book.

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But before we get into all of that, I wanted to get your perspective on your most recent book.

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Can you tell listeners a little bit about it,

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why you decided to write it, and what you hope it accomplishes?

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Yes, absolutely.

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So...

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I'll start with why I wrote it.

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So, I mean, there are always a whole bunch of reasons why we write these books, right?

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But one of the main reasons for me was that I was born Just about 10 years after

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the desegregation of hospitals in the U.S.

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And I know we always talk about,

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people always hear about the desegregation of our schools,

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desegregation of public facilities, like restaurants and even parks, right?

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Hospitals,

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the segregation of hospitals was something that really wreaked havoc in

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the community,

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Black communities and communities such as poor whites,

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which were also underserved by these public medical facilities.

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But that reality for me,

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being born when I was not too long after the desegregation of hospitals,

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Meant that I grew up hearing a lot of horror stories,

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essentially,

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not just within my family,

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but within my church community and within the broader Black community

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about people's experience with the healthcare system being an experience

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that was often something that made them feel like they were unheard.

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Unseen and uncared for in these institutions that were supposed to be

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where people would go to be cared for, right?

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And so that was a really big reason for me.

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But then also then working in rural America,

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working in the Tuskegee,

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that really,

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my goodness,

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that also solidified for me The significance of writing this book

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because rural health is something that we may not talk about it as much,

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but it is really a serious problem because we have maternal health deserts, right?

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But we have also food deserts.

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I mean, and I know people don't use the term food deserts anymore,

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but food insecurity and poverty and whatnot.

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So those are some reasons why I definitely wrote this book.

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Well, I'm glad you did write it.

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And I'm also really glad that you are speaking to rural health care.

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So I live in Georgia and,

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you know,

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I think we think of Georgia as just Atlanta and maybe Savannah

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for being extra charitable.

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But a lot of Georgia is really, really rural.

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And right now we have 97 counties where there is not a hospital and not

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an obstetrician for people who are giving birth.

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And it's been really interesting to me to watch what's unfolded here over

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the last couple of years because there's a group of Black women

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who are community midwives and often their midwifery experience dates back to days

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of enslavement.

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You know,

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it's a family history of supporting their communities and I've watched them try

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to get official recognition.

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And I've watched them be shut down by systems of authority over and over again.

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And to the point of criminalization,

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where now we have these counties where there's not healthcare.

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It's not use a midwife or go to the hospital.

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It's use a midwife or get nothing at all.

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And, you know,

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I think I see a lot of rhetoric surrounding this of,

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you know, we have to make healthcare safe.

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But then there is this practical effect of what happens to these poor women living

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in rural communities.

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And so I wonder if you might speak a little bit to how rhetoric

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that seems inclusive,

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policies that seem inclusive,

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but that actually just center white people

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and especially white men can have these really disastrous consequences like these

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midwives who can't practice their craft and whose patients are dying as a result.

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Yeah, I'll tell you, man,

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I did deal with the issue of kind of that,

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I guess we would call it kind of a long,

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contentious relationship between midwifery and doulas and the healthcare system.

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I did deal with that when I lived in Alabama.

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Yeah.

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So this was years ago because, I mean, my kids now in high school.

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But at that time when I was pregnant,

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I was so excited because

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would move there to Alabama for work.

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And I was excited because I thought that I was going to be able to get a doula,

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a birthing doula.

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And come to find out, nope,

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that was not possible just because of,

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you know, like the issue that you have raised here.

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And so it really,

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that was kind of a,

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I threw a little wrench in my plan and I was a bit sad about that.

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But thank goodness,

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you know,

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for these kind of informal networks of care, right,

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in our communities,

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I was able to To find this really wonderful woman at my church who,

(00:10:05.775):
she was a lactation consultant.

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So she really helped walk me through what was really tough when I was trying

(00:10:12.179):
to breastfeed and whatnot.

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But yeah, this is a serious issue because the reality is...

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When we have in rural areas where there is such,

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oh my gosh,

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there are so many problems with lack of access to healthcare,

(00:10:34.023):
forget about quality healthcare, but just healthcare in general, um,

(00:10:39.514):
Midwives,

(00:10:40.535):
doulas play such a significant role in the care of women and children

(00:10:47.240):
in these communities.

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I am really serious about trying to advocate for the kinds of changes that we need

(00:10:59.130):
to see so that women can get the care that they need.

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I was having a conversation With my father,

(00:11:08.349):
because,

(00:11:08.669):
you know, I mean,

(00:11:10.091):
my grandmother,

(00:11:11.152):
his mother,

(00:11:13.014):
she worked as a domestic and she could not afford,

(00:11:17.438):
I mean, she did not have health insurance.

(00:11:20.681):
And I was asking my dad about,

(00:11:22.724):
you know,

(00:11:22.984):
I was like, well, dad,

(00:11:23.965):
tell me about,

(00:11:24.786):
you know, women during this time and, you know, Especially with respect to birth.

(00:11:33.606):
I like to ask my parents about their birthing stories,

(00:11:36.547):
because these stories,

(00:11:39.828):
they live in our families and they're part of our family and communal memory.

(00:11:43.469):
So my dad was saying, hey, look, we were delivered by midwives.

(00:11:48.471):
He said, and if it weren't for midwives, a lot of us would not be here.

(00:11:53.052):
So I think it's just so important for us not to forget that really important part

(00:12:00.355):
of our history.

(00:12:02.010):
We really can't forget that.

(00:12:06.131):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:12:07.992):
So while you were talking about this, I was thinking about my own births.

(00:12:12.153):
My children are little, so it's kind of in recent memory.

(00:12:15.394):
And the thing that I was really struck by giving birth is that it's really

(00:12:21.756):
a spiritual experience in addition to being a medical experience.

(00:12:25.777):
And when I say a spiritual experience...

(00:12:28.408):
I don't mean a religious experience.

(00:12:30.009):
I mean, you can be a diehard atheist and still experience this as

(00:12:34.471):
a really intensely transformative moment that connects you to something deeper.

(00:12:42.096):
But we've also done a lot to strip the meaning from it.

(00:12:46.796):
And what I find among Pretty much everyone I know is that we can expand that

(00:12:54.538):
beyond birth where a lot of our medical experiences,

(00:12:59.503):
our spiritual experiences,

(00:13:01.705):
being born,

(00:13:02.806):
dying, having surgery, almost dying, getting treatment for serious medical issues.

(00:13:09.432):
These all really deeply affect us and our systems of care often fail to Acknowledge

(00:13:17.549):
that or manage the humanity of the medical side.

(00:13:23.994):
And that to me feels like a big piece of the puzzle in what's going wrong with health care.

(00:13:30.659):
And I wonder if you have any thoughts on that.

(00:13:33.901):
Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head with that.

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I remember when working in Massachusetts, we

(00:13:47.346):
Having many conversations with colleagues,

(00:13:51.428):
I served on an ethics committee at a local hospital in Cambridge, right?

(00:13:57.310):
And there was a chaplain who was heading that ethics committee, right?

(00:14:03.892):
And she would often tell me, she's like, oh my goodness.

(00:14:06.893):
She said, you know, it's really hard for folks to...

(00:14:14.113):
Physicians and even some of the nurses and social workers and whatnot

(00:14:19.736):
who were serving with us on the ethics committee.

(00:14:21.717):
She said, you know, it's really hard for folks to engage these issues of spirituality.

(00:14:28.180):
Like you were saying, not any particular religion, but spirituality.

(00:14:34.503):
And she said, you know, that's just a place for some people where they're really uncomfortable.

(00:14:39.425):
And she said, but if As a chaplain, she knew how important it was in serving patients, right?

(00:14:47.882):
And in caring for patients.

(00:14:50.983):
And so we really did have conversations about the significance of that.

(00:14:55.624):
And particularly when it comes to things like death and birth and suffering in general.

(00:15:02.946):
I mean, when people begin suffering or when they see their loved ones suffering,

(00:15:09.772):
There are so many questions that come up about the meaning of life, right?

(00:15:17.116):
About the meaning of suffering itself, the causes of suffering, all of that.

(00:15:24.741):
So yeah, I think it is something that we definitely need to attend to.

(00:15:32.325):
And what is really important though is As our medical providers and

(00:15:40.601):
the practitioners are being trained,

(00:15:43.443):
there needs to be some training in that area in how to attend to spirituality.

(00:15:52.508):
Because I think that that's one of the ways of serving patients,

(00:15:57.150):
of really and truly caring if you can help to To care for them fully,

(00:16:05.367):
then you will be able to or try to meet them in the fullness of who they are.

(00:16:10.992):
Yeah.

(00:16:13.313):
So I want to talk about our medical providers a little bit.

(00:16:17.196):
And I want to start by first acknowledging the sort of impossible realities

(00:16:22.541):
that doctors and nurses and many other people in medicine are really encountering

(00:16:26.604):
where they can't provide the kind of care that they want to provide.

(00:16:31.102):
And they're often bullied by administrators.

(00:16:33.283):
They have way too many patients.

(00:16:35.744):
You know,

(00:16:36.024):
they have patients who are dealing with shit life syndrome rather

(00:16:39.485):
than real medical issues.

(00:16:41.785):
And I think that they're in a lot of impossible binds.

(00:16:46.147):
And I think that there's a real spiritual injury there.

(00:16:49.328):
At the same time,

(00:16:51.768):
I've been really disappointed by the defensiveness I often see

(00:16:54.969):
among especially doctors who When we talk about issues of systemic injustice,

(00:17:01.093):
there's a lot of opposition to acknowledging these issues.

(00:17:05.614):
And every time I write or do a podcast about them, I get a lot of pushback.

(00:17:09.695):
And it really does seem to come mostly from doctors.

(00:17:13.135):
I think because we've historically imbued doctors with so much authority

(00:17:16.876):
that any pushing on that can feel threatening.

(00:17:21.197):
So again, I understand they have really hard, difficult, often impossible jobs.

(00:17:27.267):
And I think sometimes being a good doctor

(00:17:29.929):
who fights systemic injustice may make your experience of being a doctor

(00:17:33.892):
a lot worse.

(00:17:36.354):
But we still have a moral duty to fix whatever we can.

(00:17:39.877):
So I guess I wonder if you might speak to the doctors and other medical providers

(00:17:46.862):
who might be hearing this and sort of getting their hackles up

(00:17:49.404):
and getting defensive.

(00:17:51.786):
What should they know?

(00:17:52.686):
Yeah.

(00:17:53.774):
What can they do to do better in such a broken system?

(00:17:59.357):
Yeah, that is something that my colleagues and I, we actually, we struggle with this, right?

(00:18:11.283):
So I teach in the Theology, Medicine, and Culture Initiative.

(00:18:18.787):
And so we often will get Some are medical students who come in that program,

(00:18:27.664):
but also we'll have practitioners,

(00:18:31.707):
medical professionals, some who've been in medicine for 10 or 20 years.

(00:18:38.932):
And then we have some who come in their gap year, like it all depends, right?

(00:18:42.975):
So we get a lot of folk in the healthcare system who will come through that program

(00:18:48.519):
because they really are,

(00:18:52.062):
Trying, they want to be able to address these issues, right?

(00:18:59.205):
They want to be able to meet patients where they are,

(00:19:02.226):
meet the families where they are and address them as full persons,

(00:19:06.968):
as a whole, you know, in their fullness of who they are.

(00:19:11.210):
And so I think it is really important.

(00:19:18.292):
It's important to...

(00:19:20.855):
To always look at how are we seeing others, right?

(00:19:24.297):
For medical professionals,

(00:19:25.578):
because a lot of times the way they are trained,

(00:19:28.720):
like you already alluded to, they don't have much time.

(00:19:33.963):
And sometimes folks are trained, they're trained to see, they see a disease, right?

(00:19:38.085):
Instead of this whole person sitting there in front of them.

(00:19:41.948):
And so it really is,

(00:19:47.751):
medical professionals have to,

(00:19:49.866):
Like practice literally like every day, just like we get up.

(00:19:54.569):
Like for me, I know for me, I have to get up every morning.

(00:19:57.351):
I get up and this thing called love, right?

(00:20:02.255):
I have to practice that.

(00:20:04.877):
I know some people may think, oh no, love comes naturally.

(00:20:08.599):
But actually attending to what love truly is and trying to treat people in a way

(00:20:13.723):
that is loving and caring is That is a practice.

(00:20:17.589):
This is something I have to practice, right?

(00:20:20.390):
So I get up and I have to meditate on what does it mean to love, right?

(00:20:25.893):
Love is patient.

(00:20:26.594):
Love is kind, right?

(00:20:27.694):
Love is not rude.

(00:20:29.555):
It doesn't dishonor others, you know, all of that.

(00:20:31.416):
So I'm trying to meditate on this.

(00:20:32.917):
I'm trying to see,

(00:20:33.878):
and I'm meditating on,

(00:20:34.458):
okay, what does it mean to really live this out and practice this?

(00:20:37.179):
And so I think healthcare providers have to do the same thing in terms

(00:20:40.401):
of how they view patients, right?

(00:20:42.963):
You literally every day have to sit in front of someone and say, And this is my equal.

(00:20:48.666):
I'm not just treating a disease,

(00:20:50.907):
but I have a whole person sitting in front of me,

(00:20:54.689):
a whole person that I can love, right?

(00:20:58.531):
And I can treat lovingly.

(00:21:01.972):
And I think that,

(00:21:03.453):
and I know people are like,

(00:21:04.273):
well, that may take a lot of time, but actually it doesn't.

(00:21:07.154):
Our brains are phenomenal.

(00:21:09.856):
And in split seconds,

(00:21:11.797):
there are so many Thoughts that go through our minds in split seconds, right?

(00:21:16.825):
And so these are things that I think just intentionality,

(00:21:20.727):
we can really, really,

(00:21:22.667):
we really can do better, but we have to be so intentional with how we see people.

(00:21:28.810):
I think first and foremost,

(00:21:29.811):
how we see folks makes a big difference because I know that People don't want

(00:21:38.471):
to say, well, no, I'm not biased.

(00:21:41.312):
We all are biased.

(00:21:42.972):
We all have internalized racism.

(00:21:46.133):
Myself as an African-American woman, I have internalized racism, right?

(00:21:50.835):
And so

(00:21:54.436):
being vulnerable enough to admit what our issues are

(00:22:01.279):
as human beings These issues are very common to all of us.

(00:22:05.542):
And so if we can admit to, look, yes,

(00:22:08.784):
I'm vulnerable to bias,

(00:22:11.205):
we can then really and truly deal with that and think

(00:22:14.747):
through every time someone's sitting in front of us, okay, this person is my equal.

(00:22:20.791):
This person,

(00:22:21.531):
I need to really listen to this person and take seriously What they say

(00:22:28.694):
when they say they're in pain and how they're in pain and all that.

(00:22:31.375):
Like, it's just, it really is a matter of intention and practice, just like spiritual practices.

(00:22:37.779):
It's just, yeah, that's how, I'm not a physician, right?

(00:22:42.021):
I'm not a medical practitioner.

(00:22:43.602):
So that's how I understand like something that could be helpful as I'm one

(00:22:48.705):
who trains medical professionals in this area.

(00:22:51.887):
But that's one of the things that we focus on, yeah.

(00:22:56.041):
I love this idea of love as a practice because it reminds me of something I joke

(00:23:02.003):
to my husband about a lot,

(00:23:03.763):
which is that other people are such a barrier to me being a good person.

(00:23:09.985):
And, you know,

(00:23:11.026):
it's so easy to be a good person when you're sitting at home in your computer

(00:23:15.827):
and only dealing with people you like and people who are easy and

(00:23:19.443):
And it becomes much harder when you have to go out into the world and deal

(00:23:23.145):
with people who are suffering and annoying and messy and rude.

(00:23:28.167):
Yes.

(00:23:28.727):
And all of the things that we all are from time to time.

(00:23:32.668):
Yes.

(00:23:33.689):
And so, yeah,

(00:23:37.290):
we just have to practice it because it's easy to be a good person

(00:23:40.331):
to other easy people.

(00:23:42.912):
It's not so easy to be a good person to the people that we've decided don't deserve it.

(00:23:47.494):
And I think that that's where...

(00:23:50.043):
We really have to work on things because that's when our biases get activated

(00:23:55.907):
and that's when we start justifying cruelty because someone was rude

(00:23:59.549):
or made us feel bad or questioned our own importance.

(00:24:04.592):
So I think that's a really important takeaway that we can work on this skill.

(00:24:09.635):
We can just every day decide to be a little better.

(00:24:12.597):
Yeah.

(00:24:13.177):
Yeah.

(00:24:13.677):
That's real.

(00:24:14.298):
I mean, I kid you not.

(00:24:15.899):
Yeah.

(00:24:16.629):
That is like how I live, right?

(00:24:21.172):
I believe I call it baby steps.

(00:24:22.852):
I always tell,

(00:24:24.754):
especially my daughter,

(00:24:25.734):
you know,

(00:24:25.954):
because she's young and she's still learning,

(00:24:27.635):
you know, and I keep telling her, hey, baby steps.

(00:24:31.597):
You don't have to make a huge change right now,

(00:24:35.419):
but if you can just take a tiny baby step, right?

(00:24:40.442):
Yeah, that's, yeah.

(00:24:42.894):
Well, and, you know, I so I'm a white woman raising white children.

(00:24:47.095):
And one of the things that I tell them all the time

(00:24:49.796):
that I don't think they understand,

(00:24:51.056):
but I hope someday they will, is that you can actually be good or you can feel good.

(00:24:57.978):
And, you know, it

(00:25:00.318):
feels really good to say I'm an anti-racist ally.

(00:25:03.579):
Now give me my prize.

(00:25:06.259):
It feels less good to say.

(00:25:09.003):
And here are all the implicitly racist things I thought while I was saying that.

(00:25:13.906):
And here's how I'm going to fix it.

(00:25:17.789):
So it's hard.

(00:25:20.611):
It sucks to feel bad.

(00:25:21.891):
And it's not fun to think about the ways that systemic oppression manifest in your own mind.

(00:25:28.456):
So I'm using this as a seg to talk about white women.

(00:25:34.039):
Because I work a lot with our local reproductive justice community

(00:25:39.176):
and what I have been so struck by is how segregated activism continues to be.

(00:25:47.304):
And I often find myself in this weird position where I'm running back and forth

(00:25:52.740):
between Black communities and white communities trying to help them communicate.

(00:25:58.648):
And I find that white women who are truly invested in reproductive justice and

(00:26:05.112):
who want to fix racism in healthcare have very good intentions,

(00:26:10.815):
but they don't really know what to do.

(00:26:12.636):
And so a lot of times what ends up happening is they focus on reciting

(00:26:17.818):
the right script and And buying the right judgments rather

(00:26:22.589):
than really building solidarity and community.

(00:26:25.510):
So there's a lot of discourse online, but not so much sisterhood out there in the real world.

(00:26:32.214):
I wonder if you have any thoughts on what white women who are listening to this

(00:26:37.436):
who say, yes, I want to fix these issues.

(00:26:39.778):
Here I am.

(00:26:40.638):
I'm ready to show up.

(00:26:43.580):
What can they do?

(00:26:45.950):
No,

(00:26:46.170):
that is a great question because I find myself struggling with that very same thing,

(00:26:52.634):
like you were saying,

(00:26:53.394):
kind of going between communities,

(00:26:57.196):
white communities and Black communities because our nation really is still

(00:27:01.959):
so segregated.

(00:27:03.620):
It's actually, it's really kind of surprising, right?

(00:27:09.704):
I mean, I really am surprised as it's still how segregated we still are.

(00:27:16.834):
And so what I think is really important to do,

(00:27:20.997):
I always talk about this notion of proximity, right?

(00:27:27.262):
We have to as much as possible try to get proximate to those for whom We want

(00:27:35.205):
to fight for those who we really would love to fight side by side with when it comes

(00:27:42.949):
to these kinds of reproductive justice issues.

(00:27:46.910):
So what I think is really important, baby steps again.

(00:27:52.332):
So first and foremost,

(00:27:53.953):
and that's another reason why I wrote this book is because for me,

(00:27:58.995):
I think that what's really significant about books Is that they allow us

(00:28:05.635):
to enter one another's worlds, right?

(00:28:08.579):
And so a book is a kind of a good first baby step because what you're doing is, okay, fine.

(00:28:16.102):
You're entering this world at a safe distance, right?

(00:28:20.424):
And that's wonderful.

(00:28:22.545):
But then, okay, next baby step is trying to get a little bit more proximate.

(00:28:29.347):
So maybe then the next thing that you can do is,

(00:28:34.830):
you know,

(00:28:35.977):
There are these,

(00:28:37.120):
sometimes there are Kind of these community organizations, community centers.

(00:28:46.316):
If someone is willing to go to a church or a school board meeting,

(00:28:51.798):
you know, like meeting people in the places where they frequent, right?

(00:28:58.180):
So for me, if I,

(00:28:59.841):
you know,

(00:29:00.081):
if I move to a place,

(00:29:01.641):
whenever I move to a place,

(00:29:04.342):
I really like to try to get out in the community and go

(00:29:07.704):
to different things like You know,

(00:29:10.343):
school board meetings or a town hall meeting or rather rather interested

(00:29:15.607):
in what they're talking about or not.

(00:29:17.128):
It doesn't really matter.

(00:29:18.569):
What matters is getting proximate to people because lo and behold,

(00:29:22.693):
whenever I get out in the community and oh,

(00:29:25.054):
and not just those kinds of things, but fun things, too.

(00:29:28.177):
Sometimes there are festivals, sometimes, you know.

(00:29:32.732):
There may be just kind of community events,

(00:29:34.953):
you know,

(00:29:35.253):
go to your local bookstore and they'll have,

(00:29:37.794):
you know, a book talk or whatever, whatever.

(00:29:40.055):
Just get out there,

(00:29:40.975):
getting out there and getting proximate with people

(00:29:44.077):
because I always end up meeting people with whom I have common interests,

(00:29:50.059):
shared interests.

(00:29:52.080):
And to me, that's like such a good start is just making that connection.

(00:29:59.343):
Oh my gosh, so much good comes out of Just us connecting with folks.

(00:30:05.171):
So we don't have to connect over the social justice or reproductive justice

(00:30:09.374):
or anything,

(00:30:09.874):
but just connecting and that connection can build and build and build and build out.

(00:30:18.048):
That's so huge.

(00:30:19.399):
The older I get and the more I observe people and myself and both the good things

(00:30:25.202):
and the bad things we do,

(00:30:26.643):
the more convinced I become that community is just the answer to everything.

(00:30:31.246):
How do we bridge political gaps?

(00:30:32.867):
How do we help other people?

(00:30:34.188):
It's just community all the way down.

(00:30:36.670):
Yes, yes, yes.

(00:30:38.852):
I agree with you 100%.

(00:30:40.053):
I'm a huge believer in community.

(00:30:45.257):
You can't help people you're not in community with.

(00:30:47.939):
You can't get help from people you're not in community with.

(00:30:50.381):
And you certainly can't change someone's mind if you're not in community with them.

(00:30:53.684):
Yeah.

(00:30:56.531):
I want to switch gears a bit and talk about your experiences with grief and working

(00:31:01.214):
with the bereaved.

(00:31:02.855):
You wrote a beautiful piece about your experiences as a death doula at the height of

(00:31:06.838):
the COVID-19 pandemic when you couldn't even touch the people you served.

(00:31:12.181):
Grief has become sort of a special interest of mine.

(00:31:15.663):
I'm very interested in the experience of grief because I lost my daughter and

(00:31:19.746):
then my mother a year apart.

(00:31:22.249):
And I've come to believe that grief is perhaps

(00:31:25.671):
the most important unifying human experience,

(00:31:29.974):
as well as a chance to grow into really meaningful compassion.

(00:31:35.318):
We often don't seize those opportunities, though.

(00:31:38.500):
So I want to hear a little bit about your own experiences working with the bereaved

(00:31:42.702):
and just some of your thoughts on grief.

(00:31:46.425):
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

(00:31:51.275):
Yeah, grief is,

(00:31:53.437):
it's interesting because we're in a,

(00:31:56.816):
I call America, we're a death denying and a grief denying society.

(00:32:02.598):
People do not like to talk about grief.

(00:32:07.599):
And I've often found that it's so interesting whenever you do allow that space

(00:32:15.901):
and give people the space where they can talk about it.

(00:32:20.031):
I have witnessed many occasions where people will often apologize.

(00:32:24.914):
Oh, I'm so sorry for, you know, bringing this up.

(00:32:27.596):
I'm sorry for, you know, and I'm like, wait a minute.

(00:32:31.479):
Excuse me.

(00:32:32.019):
There's absolutely no reason that people should be apologizing, right?

(00:32:39.644):
Or feel that they need to apologize for bringing up really what I consider a sacred gift.

(00:32:47.629):
The ability The fact that someone shares grief,

(00:32:54.238):
shares that,

(00:32:55.819):
that is a sacred gift that we are given from that person that allows us to connect.

(00:33:03.541):
It allows us, it reminds us of our humanity.

(00:33:07.663):
It reminds us of our commonality.

(00:33:10.584):
And it is such a gift that allows us to really and truly even, you know, Walk with that person.

(00:33:21.404):
So to me, I think grief is something that is so powerful and it is communal.

(00:33:30.165):
It is itself communal.

(00:33:31.405):
That is, some people, yes, some people may grieve alone, but I think it is really hard.

(00:33:41.487):
It is so hard to grieve alone.

(00:33:43.667):
And it is truly something that we,

(00:33:46.648):
it is again, Give to community to allow people to walk with us on that journey.

(00:33:52.345):
It truly is.

(00:33:53.245):
That's what I believe about that.

(00:33:55.546):
Yeah, it really is.

(00:33:56.806):
So a few years ago,

(00:33:58.047):
this is about three years ago,

(00:34:00.507):
my oldest child started kindergarten and had this teacher that she just fell in love

(00:34:04.509):
with.

(00:34:04.709):
And we fell in love with her.

(00:34:05.589):
She was delightful and wonderful.

(00:34:07.890):
And early in the school year, the teacher's daughter suddenly died.

(00:34:12.352):
You know, just a devastating loss for her and the community and all of that.

(00:34:17.070):
And, you know,

(00:34:17.811):
I watched as a lot of people sort of separated themselves from her

(00:34:21.973):
because it felt too big and they didn't know what to do.

(00:34:25.675):
And, but I, I said, oh, I know this one.

(00:34:28.737):
I know this one because I've done this one in my own life.

(00:34:32.179):
So like, I know how to be with her.

(00:34:35.421):
And, you know,

(00:34:36.422):
she and I have formed a really close relationship over the last couple of years

(00:34:39.844):
that has been like so meaningful to both of us.

(00:34:44.267):
And You know, you don't get over it.

(00:34:46.482):
It doesn't fix it, but it builds something useful over the scar that at least has some value.

(00:34:54.724):
And so I'm always telling people run towards the bereaved because that's what they need.

(00:35:00.625):
They're not going to chase you and ask for help.

(00:35:02.926):
You've got to offer it to them.

(00:35:06.187):
But, you know, this is something that you have a ton of experience with.

(00:35:10.168):
I mean, you teach about it for one.

(00:35:12.623):
So I,

(00:35:13.603):
I wonder if for those either who have not experienced profound grief directly

(00:35:20.466):
who feel awkward sitting with people in grief, do you have some tips you can offer?

(00:35:27.449):
Well, uh,

(00:35:28.389):
one big tip is,

(00:35:30.370):
you know, to definitely just practice what I call the ministry of presence, right?

(00:35:37.753):
Um, Presence is so important.

(00:35:40.872):
And I know that a lot of times people sometimes will discount how important it is

(00:35:45.874):
to just be present and not say anything.

(00:35:50.035):
Because the biggest thing that really makes people really uncomfortable about grief,

(00:35:56.638):
like you were saying,

(00:35:57.358):
what makes people run is that they don't feel like they have The tools, right?

(00:36:06.789):
Or the talents or the words, right?

(00:36:10.412):
They're like, oh my gosh, I can't deal with this.

(00:36:13.875):
What am I going to say to this person?

(00:36:15.276):
What am I going to do?

(00:36:17.257):
And I think it's the one thing that is so important is we can literally just sit

(00:36:25.584):
and not say anything.

(00:36:28.607):
And I know a lot of times in our culture,

(00:36:31.589):
oh my gosh, people are We're big on doing, what can I do?

(00:36:35.919):
How can I fix this?

(00:36:36.639):
What can I do?

(00:36:38.220):
But especially when it comes to grief,

(00:36:41.822):
often you just being present and not even having to say anything,

(00:36:48.165):
you'd be surprised how that can really,

(00:36:52.627):
really be something that can be helpful to someone.

(00:36:59.033):
And so I do tell people all the time,

(00:37:01.675):
please don't discount the significance of just being present.

(00:37:07.419):
And if folks feel,

(00:37:08.259):
you know,

(00:37:08.499):
really awkward and feel like they need to say something,

(00:37:14.183):
I share with my students in class.

(00:37:17.715):
I love to share these lists.

(00:37:20.097):
And people can search the internet and find these lists of what not to say

(00:37:27.984):
when people are grieving.

(00:37:30.586):
But definitely there are things that can be said.

(00:37:33.969):
I just always prefer silence.

(00:37:37.592):
And I always prefer just letting someone know that, hey,

(00:37:45.138):
I am right here.

(00:37:47.098):
I'm right here.

(00:37:48.839):
I'm not going anywhere.

(00:37:50.120):
I'm not going to abandon you at this moment.

(00:37:53.721):
I'm right here.

(00:37:54.542):
You know, because oftentimes people feel alone.

(00:37:58.584):
And I mean,

(00:37:59.905):
the bottom has literally,

(00:38:01.445):
when someone loses someone close to them or they've had a big life change

(00:38:07.348):
or disruption in their life and they're grieving,

(00:38:11.631):
they feel like the bottom has just fallen out, right, in their lives.

(00:38:17.034):
And so just knowing that there's someone who who literally is like,

(00:38:21.317):
hey, I'm not going anywhere.

(00:38:23.378):
I'm not going to abandon you.

(00:38:25.579):
That can be helpful as well.

(00:38:27.220):
So so not discounting the little things like that.

(00:38:30.441):
You know, we don't always need to say we don't need to always need to have something to say.

(00:38:34.844):
I think that, you know.

(00:38:39.167):
People really want scripts for some reason.

(00:38:41.569):
And I think maybe the reason they want scripts is because they want to fix it.

(00:38:45.452):
They want to make it better.

(00:38:46.793):
And that's when they end up causing harm because there's not really fixing grief.

(00:38:52.517):
And one of my favorite stories about grief is I have this really just wonderfully kind cousin.

(00:39:01.283):
She's very gentle.

(00:39:03.325):
She spends like all of her time doing things for other people.

(00:39:06.307):
She volunteers and She's very religious.

(00:39:09.881):
She's very precise.

(00:39:11.301):
You know, she doesn't curse.

(00:39:12.601):
She follows all the rules.

(00:39:15.396):
You know, we joke among our other cousins that she's like the Virgin Mary on Earth.

(00:39:20.943):
But in a lovely, good way, not a self-righteous way at all.

(00:39:25.645):
But, you know, in our cousin group chat, we'll say, oh, she's in here.

(00:39:29.285):
You can't say fuck.

(00:39:30.646):
Don't say fuck.

(00:39:33.460):
But I remember when my infant daughter died,

(00:39:37.502):
you know, I called her and she said, well, I'm going to come over.

(00:39:41.304):
And she walks into my house and she sits down on the couch and she goes, well, fuck this shit.

(00:39:49.088):
And then just sat there.

(00:39:54.210):
And, you know, fuck this shit is not on any list of what you're supposed to say to the grieved.

(00:40:01.525):
But, you know, it was an earnest expression of how she felt.

(00:40:05.088):
And it was a sign that she was really present and in it because what mattered is

(00:40:09.711):
that she was there.

(00:40:11.072):
That's it.

(00:40:12.113):
Oh, I love that.

(00:40:14.855):
Yeah.

(00:40:15.756):
You know, I threatened her that we're going to put that on her tombstone when she goes.

(00:40:23.662):
Which, you know, would just be

(00:40:25.063):
just be wonderful.

(00:40:26.354):
So, you know, I just,

(00:40:28.515):
I love the idea of just sitting with people and,

(00:40:31.276):
you know, if you say the wrong thing, you can fix it with your presence.

(00:40:35.378):
It's really just not being there that harms people.

(00:40:38.719):
Yes.

(00:40:39.559):
Yes.

(00:40:41.240):
Oh, it does so much.

(00:40:42.700):
My goodness.

(00:40:43.441):
When people, I mean,

(00:40:45.501):
it's just the way I see it is,

(00:40:47.362):
you know,

(00:40:47.802):
kind of putting ourselves in a situation where at your lowest,

(00:40:52.904):
at one of your lowest points in life,

(00:40:56.543):
One of the things you definitely don't want is you don't want to be abandoned,

(00:41:00.065):
right?

(00:41:01.166):
And I always, yeah, I always think about it that way is, wait a minute.

(00:41:04.728):
I don't, I don't.

(00:41:06.249):
And it's, that is such a, that's a hard feeling to feel like you're alone and abandoned.

(00:41:15.134):
My goodness.

(00:41:17.295):
Yeah.

(00:41:18.376):
Well, and I think,

(00:41:19.316):
you know, I think the message there for people is, well, your grief is too much.

(00:41:23.198):
So if your grief is too much for the people around you, Then how are, how are you to bear it?

(00:41:29.574):
Yes.

(00:41:30.675):
Yes.

(00:41:32.235):
Precisely.

(00:41:34.116):
So the last thing I want to ask you about,

(00:41:35.717):
My Lynn,

(00:41:36.317):
is you're the theologian in resonance for the Children's Defense Fund,

(00:41:41.959):
which is really interesting to me because I love the Children's Defense Fund

(00:41:46.401):
because we continue to live in a world that is so incredibly anti-child

(00:41:50.863):
and dismissive of the needs and humanity of children.

(00:41:55.182):
Tell me what this role means.

(00:41:56.904):
I've never heard of this before.

(00:41:59.245):
So tell me.

(00:42:00.606):
Okay.

(00:42:01.067):
So, yeah.

(00:42:01.647):
So actually it's for the, it's called the Hall Proctor Institute, right?

(00:42:09.973):
Okay.

(00:42:10.854):
For child advocacy and child ministry.

(00:42:15.297):
And so it's a yearly institute.

(00:42:18.680):
I mean, that they have, and it's at the Alex Haley Farms.

(00:42:24.245):
In Clinton, Tennessee.

(00:42:25.786):
So it's really hot.

(00:42:28.047):
It's always so hot.

(00:42:29.808):
But we are there and we are committed to child advocacy.

(00:42:34.610):
And so that was last year,

(00:42:38.332):
I was the theologian in residence for that institute,

(00:42:42.074):
for the Hall Proctor Institute that the Children's Defense Fund does every year.

(00:42:48.317):
And at this institute,

(00:42:49.757):
it's all about Training and equipping to do the work of child advocacy

(00:42:56.541):
and child ministry.

(00:43:00.183):
So as the theologian in residence, I had to give a plenary, a keynote plenary address.

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I had to talk about,

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and I talked about,

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of course,

(00:43:10.569):
maternal health and child health and well-being and But also in addition to that,

(00:43:19.057):
I just had to be available to talk with because there are seminarians who come.

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But they're also just regular folk who are out there on the front lines fighting for

(00:43:31.212):
the rights and the health and well-being of our children across this nation.

(00:43:37.235):
And so I love it because you get academics all the way down to

(00:43:44.238):
the little church lady who is running the youth ministry at her church

(00:43:50.442):
and her community.

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And it is wonderful.

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You have people from Mississippi,

(00:43:54.825):
people from Yale Divinity School,

(00:43:57.867):
and folks from,

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and when I say Mississippi,

(00:44:00.088):
the poorest county in Mississippi,

(00:44:02.069):
all the way to Yale Divinity School, all the way to professors like myself.

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And so it's just...

(00:44:09.678):
I guess a word you could use is it's like if you would envision what

(00:44:14.399):
the beloved community looks like, right?

(00:44:17.860):
It's really just this phenomenal motley crew, right?

(00:44:23.542):
We're just all there.

(00:44:25.602):
We are there to be equipped to do the work out there.

(00:44:28.583):
And so that was last year when I was theologian in residence.

(00:44:32.184):
And this past year, I was a father.

(00:44:35.345):
I went as a faculty member for, because they also have like this kind of a seminary there.

(00:44:42.788):
We do like a kind of like a seminary on the spot in the Institute,

(00:44:47.050):
you know,

(00:44:48.330):
where we have a lot of seminarians from all across the U.S.

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and they come and we have classes for them.

(00:44:56.494):
And this past year, the class that I taught or workshop, you can call it a workshop.

(00:45:03.456):
It's more of a workshop.

(00:45:05.635):
But the workshop that I taught this past year was practical strategies

(00:45:10.977):
for mental health,

(00:45:14.199):
addressing mental health, grief, and trauma in family and youth ministry.

(00:45:21.722):
And so it was really, I'm telling you, it's a really powerful institute.

(00:45:28.004):
And what I love is the fact that it's really focused on people Well,

(00:45:33.064):
practical strategies and really equipping people to do the everyday work on behalf

(00:45:39.346):
of child, you know, children's well-being and health and rights.

(00:45:43.787):
Yeah.

(00:45:45.027):
So I love it that you're doing that.

(00:45:47.108):
My mom was a lifelong child advocate who started her career at the Children's Defense Fund.

(00:45:52.429):
Oh!

(00:45:53.875):
Children's advocates are a scrappy bunch.

(00:45:58.258):
They will fight you for children's well-being.

(00:46:01.881):
I love them.

(00:46:02.781):
They're just wonderful.

(00:46:04.542):
Yes, yes.

(00:46:05.603):
It's beautiful.

(00:46:06.424):
It's a beautiful thing.

(00:46:07.824):
And I'm going to tell you, I love going to that institute.

(00:46:11.167):
And just being a part of it, to me, is just a powerful thing.

(00:46:16.290):
And I just consider it such a gift.

(00:46:18.411):
I love it.

(00:46:19.152):
Yeah.

(00:46:20.058):
Well, I'm glad that you're sharing your gifts with them and with all of us.

(00:46:24.620):
Weiland, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

(00:46:26.781):
This has just been wonderful.

(00:46:29.462):
Oh, thank you for having me.

(00:46:32.403):
It's just been, it's been such a pleasure.

(00:46:34.264):
And listeners, you can pick up Weiland's most recent book.

(00:46:38.246):
It's again, Womanist Bioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality, and Black Women's Health.

(00:46:44.008):
Anywhere where books are sold, but I'll also put it in the Liberating Motherhood book shop.

(00:46:48.796):
Thank you so much for listening and I will be back with y'all next week.