Andy Williams
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Allan Andrews: [00:00:00] Thanks for your time, Andy. Welcome to another episode of the Kanda Consulting podcast called Better Places. I'm Allan Andrews. I'm a director at Kanda Consulting with responsibility with my colleague, Luke Tatton, for establishing our presence and growing our presence here in the Midlands. I'm in the council house today of Birmingham City Council, joined by Andy Williams, their director of economy.

And Andy, you're not too far into the role for me not to offer my congratulations. Thank you. So congratulations on the role. How have you settled in so far?

Andy Williams: Yeah, it's been fantastic. I've really enjoyed coming to Birmingham. It's really a city of opportunity. Um, and I've been bowled over and amazed by the amount of things there are to do in the city, the opportunity to see growth in the city and really make a difference for decades to come really.

I don't think I'll ever grow tired of the opportunity [00:01:00] that exists here.

Allan Andrews: So you must be genuinely excited about the- Yeah ... the sheer scale of the opportunity facing Birmingham now.

Andy Williams:

I've worked in regeneration for years. I've worked in the region. And in particular, I think we've talked a lot about if you bring investment and if you see investment coming, the communities and neighborhoods benefit. Well, actually, where we are now in twenty twenty-six, we have to work a little bit harder around that and really think about inclusive growth and how if you bring investors into the creative quarter in Digbeth or the Knowledge Quarter or Curzon or Central Heart or Paradise, how do the people of Birmingham benefit from that?

And how do we link up those opportunities going into those neighborhoods and into those communities and showing them that, one, they can get there, they can access those opportunities. Two, that there's a range of jobs. So great to have all the high-level jobs, but you need entry-level jobs, and we have people that want [00:02:00] entry-level jobs as well.

So for us as a city, our people, in my view, can exist across all those different types of jobs and opportunities and present a real, uh, real offer to employers that are coming in or even existing employers for that matter as well.

Allan Andrews: Yeah. No, absolutely right. So you've been in post for what, three months-ish then or thereabout?

Yeah. Just over, yeah. So, um-

What does Birmingham need to get better at, do you think, in your early sort of phase here? Gosh.

Andy Williams: Um, so, well, at its highest level, I think its reputation as a city of opportunity. I think there's lots of myths about Birmingham, um, particularly with the challenges of the city council perhaps, but also, just not being London, being a different place, probably underselling itself.

Um, so there's things about reputation and building on our strong reputation and those opportunities that I've sort of highlighted [00:03:00] some of them of. I think it needs to get better at promoting the regeneration program and what's there and what that means for the city, not just for, for the jobs of today, but the jobs of tomorrow as well.

You know, take HS2, for example. the, the HS2 redevelopment on the east side of Birmingham will be the most significant thing the city has seen for decades. It will, it will connect us quicker and closer, not just to London, but to other parts of the world. So obviously beyond Curzon Street, going to Birmingham Airport, but then into London itself, being able to connect educational institutions, investors institutions and actually make business happen in a quicker, more paceful environment, if you like, as well.

So there, there's lots of opportunities at the back of it. And then when you step out of the station, you know, what's there in terms of jobs, opportunity, retail, hospitality, leisure, [00:04:00] creating spaces that people see as a destination as well, making Birmingham that, that destination, that experience place for people

Allan Andrews: That's fascinating.

Sort of-- I mean, there's no, there, there, there's no shortage of regeneration opportunities in- Yeah ... in Birmingham and indeed the wider West Midlands. But just get your take very briefly on what separates projects that happen and become a reality to those that remain lovely looking projects in a brochure or on a, or on a page.

What, what's the, what's the fundamental difference?

Andy Williams: So I think at, I think at the highest level, it's one about credibility and investors believing a city can deliver and support a pace with investment. So whether that's in planning terms, infrastructure terms, seeing delivery happening in the city will make a difference.

So talking to an investor, and asking them to come into Birmingham, they want to know, "Well, does-- Is Birmingham gonna partner with us? Is it going to provide the skills and [00:05:00] talents? Is it gonna make it easier for people to come to the workplace inside of that? Is it going to match some of the expenditure that we're gonna be making in the investment in the city?"

So there, there's a real strong credibility trap inside of that because at this moment in time, you know, things like viability are challenging. Yeah. Costs are going up for investors. Costs are going up, and investment is mobile. It doesn't have to come to Birmingham, so we need to be selling Birmingham as a strong, credible proposition.

It's, no good saying to an investor market, "Come in ten years' time." You know, they're wanting to invest now. So how we put our front foot forward, and we may come onto things like the Mayoral Development Corporation as an example of, of those things. Us basically saying to the world and saying to the investment community, we are, one, open for business, and two, we're here to partner with you in making that journey simple, easy, at the [00:06:00] pace that you want, to do it.

Allan Andrews: And do you think that model, that sort of development partnership is the way to go in terms of the, the combined authority's role and the plan-- the planning powers it comes with and the sort of friction it might generate with local authorities or, or what's your sort of stance

Andy Williams: on that one? Yeah. It, uh, I think devolution is really important for growth and development, and there are countless examples Uh, particularly across Europe of stronger municipalities- Yeah

where we've seen development, regeneration and, and growth, and there've been positive stories. So I think devolution is, is really important because who knows the local areas better than the local leaders, better than local business leaders, as well as political leaders, educational leaders in what's needed inside of place.

So I think, I think devolution is, is really important in that. The partnership's important as well. So knowing that you've got that overarching [00:07:00] framework and place and connectivity. So Birmingham probably services, you know, in excess of half a million jobs, maybe five hundred and fifty thousand jobs. But the working population is probably about four million inside that, and that's where combined authorities and local authorities can work together- Yeah

around that. That supports that investment. The other thing around the two of those things working together and creating entities like mayoral development corporations, of which there are many up and down the country, is it unifies that focus and puts it in a particular place. You know, where, where investment becomes difficult is if there's not a prioritization and you're trying to sell everything, every part of the city, or you're not focused where you want some of that investment.

So the, the MDC, as we call it, or the Birmingham, the East Birmingham MDC-

Allan Andrews: Mm-hmm ...

Andy Williams: becomes a focal point for investment and activity. Says to the market, "We've organized ourselves, we've brought our planning, we've brought our political leadership, our [00:08:00] non-exec leadership together to deliver with a sense of pace, to deliver with a sense of confidence, to focus it in those areas."

And the private sector, we're already seeing the private sector responding to it. Early days in some places-

Allan Andrews: Of course. Yeah ...

Andy Williams: um, but strong interest i-in that.

Allan Andrews: So if you've got a developer or an investor who... So reasonably comfortable with Birmingham's fundamentals but are still a bit dubious about complexity and planning and delivery, you think this model might reduce complexity and make things slightly easier for investors to spend their cash here?

Andy Williams: this is about a single front door. I mean, that's a very common term, right? Mm-hmm. I've heard it before many times. But this genuinely is an investor saying, If we... If you want to invest in within the mayoral development, corporation area, then you, you have one point of access into that. And through that you can get some support with your pre-planning advice, [00:09:00] the infrastructure support, skills and employment, work, energy, all the rest of it."

And we can do that in a simple, simpler and quicker timeframe inside of that

Allan Andrews: Fascinating. Let's touch a little bit more on devolution, 'cause you sort of got there and then straight back into the world of- Sure ... um, complexity and planning and so on. Um, so how much difference do you think greater devolution can actually make to Birmingham's ambitions to grow?

Andy Williams: I think I always struggle with a one size fits all mentality and us bending to something that's decided in Whitehall that isn't cognizant of the place and people. But I also understand that it's difficult for a, uh, a government down in Whitehall to kind of proliferate that across however many councils there are in the country.

That's, that's a difficult and a costly interface. So devolution in and of itself, grouping it together around sensible place economic geography means that [00:10:00] those areas aren't neither too small, but they're of a size where you can actually deal with those areas. Devolution for us means that, you know, if we do have opportunities, whether they're in the creative quarter in Digbeth or whether they're in the knowledge quarter, and we know the skill requirement or what employers want or what investment-- investors want, so we could use devolution to respond to those things.

Yeah. You know, in terms of creating the skills pathways with them, putting funding programs in with them, working with the private sector, responding to the skills need, not just a gen-generic skills route or academic route inside of that. And I think that's, that's one of the key things for us, is to be able to be, agile and flexible in what the needs are of the city and respond to that.

So, we know, for example, we have high youth unemployment in the city. We have great outcomes from schools, but high youth unemployment. So devolution should enable us as Birmingham and as the [00:11:00] West Midlands to be able to, to focus and deal with that issue specifically and not feel like we're having to, to, to put them into a national program that perhaps doesn't work or doesn't deal with the issues around that.

So, you know, we should be able to respond quicker. That would be the long-term aim. It'd be great to see what happens under the new government rewiring of the state and those things. But I think devolution is, is right, and that's where we need to be heading. We need to grow the powers, the opportunities inside of that.

Allan Andrews: And what... If I can just, just pressure a little bit on what powers or freedoms or suite of powers and freedoms would you want to see Birmingham given that would allow you to deliver change that little bit quicker and as you say, in a, in a more peaceful manner that you haven't currently got?

Andy Williams: Yeah. I can give you an example of something we've got in one area that we think we've proven, if you like, it's worth, and we think it's worth expanding this and doing that in partnership [00:12:00] with government, the combined authority, to make that work in other places.

And that is some of the tax incentives and the enterprise zone work. So just a stone's throw from the council house here is Paradise. Yeah. And the development there. That's all within something called the enterprise zone. And has been, funded and delivered, kickstarted as a result of us being able to retain business rates, for example, inside that and reinvest, uh, with pace- Yeah

that we talked about a little bit earlier with the local decision-making. And what we need is to look at schemes like that to bring forward some of the more trickier, newer developments. Because we know viability is a challenge going forward, how can we use some of those fiscal instruments to make those things work?

More flexibility around some of our education system as well, particularly pre sixteen, fourteen to sixteen-year-olds as well as sixteen to nineteen-year-olds. Yeah. To get those [00:13:00] pathways and to get the funding mechanisms from, from national government in the hands of CA and devolved so that we can actually take those powers and take those funding mechanisms to actually respond to what's required inside them.

There are, there are other asks inside of what we're, we're hoping to do with inside of that. But I think those things are examples of where I think- ... we could drive forward some- Yeah ... of the regeneration agenda.

Allan Andrews: And, and not a question, but more of an observation. The opportunity for Birmingham and the wider West Midlands right now, given Andy Burnham- Yeah

his previous role, his relationship with the current mayor here, I mean, it's gotta be one of excitement, and I can sorta- Yeah ... sense that from a relatively outsider point of view.

Andy Williams: Yeah. it's definitely one of excitement, and obviously we've got a lot of senior leadership that have worked in Manchester that are now working in Birmingham.

And the news last week and the appointment of a chief officer from Stockport's MDC and Stockport Council coming to Birmingham as [00:14:00] well- Yeah ... who has worked inside of some of the stuff that Andy has done in Manchester that we hope we can not, not replicate, we wanna learn from here and do it quicker.

I think the West Midlands Combined Authority Alongside the greater Manchester are the ones that have gone first. So we see it as an opportunity to go first again- Yeah ... and drive some of that, some of those developments through as well.

Allan Andrews: Yeah. No, brilliant. And it sort of leads neatly on to the next sort of topic of discussion really, which is, obviously Birmingham is the center of the economy here in the West Midlands.

It's the powerhouse. If Birmingham does well, the theory is that other places do well. But how do you think Birmingham's relationship with the wider West Midlands should evolve? Where, where do you see the, not pitfalls, where do you see it not working quite so well, and how can that, how can that get better in the age of the sort of devolution that we briefly discussed?

Andy Williams: Yeah, I think for the West Midlands to succeed, Birmingham needs to succeed. It's got by [00:15:00] far the biggest, population, it's got by far the biggest workforce inside of that, and it's an attractive place for investment. But on the other hand, it's got a huge amount of deprivation and unemployment to deal with.

And if we don't deal with those issues, the rest of the region will suffer. And if we do deal with those things, the rest of the region will benefit. But the reason I think it, it's also important to the West Midlands is a lot of people wanna work in Birmingham, but they may want to live in the wider suburbs as well.

So if we get Birmingham as a city center, as an engine right inside of that, make those transport connectivity challenges work as well. Because we know from history that if you connect places up, if you put infrastructure in, then growth will come as part of that. Yeah. We know that growth won't be limited to Birmingham alone.

I mean, one of the reasons I've taken this job is I can commute from Coventry down the road because the West [00:16:00] Midlands Coast rail line is a very good connection.

Allan Andrews: Yeah.

Andy Williams: Um, but for others, we need other connections. So we need the tram to be going out beyond just the new sports quarter and into the wider East Birmingham and probably into Solihull, and I think you'll see the growth and opportunity.

But I think you've got to start somewhere, and investors wanna start somewhere and, and I think Birmingham City Centre provides that opportunity. But we wanna see the growth not just into the Birmingham suburbs, but beyond that into other places. So connecting up the opportunities or the, sectors inside of Coventry or inside of Wolverhampton or in Walsall, Sandwell, Dudley, and creating an economy that can flow as well.

So it's... One of the other key things for me around inclusive growth is not just talking about jobs but talking about careers. Because if you are a young person, it's not just about the job you're in today, it's about the career you're trying to forge. So if you can create career opportunities across the [00:17:00] whole of the West Midlands, you're more likely to retain that talent as well inside that, instead of people exiting Birmingham or the conurbations and going elsewhere.

So there's- Yeah ... you know, there is a city and a regional role that is symbiotic to each other.

Allan Andrews: and that feeds into what we touched on earlier, graduate retention, keeping those high-earning taxpayers here. Yeah. You have HSBC just around the corner. I'm guessing a lot of those people still commuting from London and the commuter belt.

Andy Williams: Yeah.

Allan Andrews: Um, and that feeds in again to the bigger question of aspirational housing and housing delivery and, and so on. Yeah. So in your conversations with investors, Are they seeing Birmingham as an individual opportunity as it's a city on its own, which clearly it is, or are they seeing it increasingly as a wider proposition with the West Midlands geography?

Andy Williams: Well, it's definitely a wider, definitely a wider proposition, but I wouldn't limit it to the West Midlands geography. I would say HS2 is a game changer in that. [00:18:00] Right. So, international investors we're talking to will see HS2 as a game changer in that connectivity piece. Don't forget, international investors operate in a range of countries where the geography is very different, connectivity is different inside that, and a train that takes just over forty minutes between the capital city and the second biggest city is a game changer inside of that.

So investors are... Yes, they're looking at Birmingham, but the infrastructure piece is really important. The airport would be another significant factor in that. You know, bringing business and leisure tourism quickly into the, into the Midlands is pretty critical for investors that are coming inside of that.

Allan Andrews: Mm. That's, a fascinating answer. Um, there's, there's a couple of things on my mind, and I'm conscious of time because I don't want it to run- Sure ... into too long a sort of episode, if you like. But does Birmingham and the West Midlands more generally need to get [00:19:00] more comfortable talking about growth and wealth creation?

Andy Williams: That's a good, good question. I think the answer is yes. I think the language is couched in inclusive growth, and that's the way that we deal with that. Mm. So I think... I do, I do think you're right. I think i-it's often uncomfortable for decision makers to talk purely about growth and wealth when you've got a cost of living crisis and challenge inside of it.

It's much simpler to talk about inclusive growth, but that doesn't make the problem any simpler at all. Um, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of work to do there in terms of our, our language and in terms of how we prioritize those things. Inclusive growth, I think also, you, you, you sort of touched on this a little bit is it's no good just bringing people into Birmingham and into the city for nine till five.

You've got to create the culture, the [00:20:00] arts, the leisure, the destination, the experience. That means that generations that are not my generation, but those coming behind me want to be inside of that city center. Remember, like, the, the culture at the moment is you can do your job from, from anywhere in the UK, possibly beyond that.

Yeah. You don't have to be in its locality. So we have to create reasons for people to want to come, live, work, and play. We've talked about live, work, and play for decades in terms of regeneration, but I think it's more important now. So a lot of what I'm doing in, in this space as well is about... is with a cultural lens as well, which was a big learning point from COVID and the pandemic and mental health and wellbeing.

How do you... If we're gonna build an office space- Mm ... and encourage a whole workforce to come in, well, why are they gonna come in? Why are they gonna come to the city-

Allan Andrews: Yeah ...

Andy Williams: center? Why are they gonna come to the districts and stuff? It's not just for a [00:21:00] desk in an office space. It's got to be for what else they can access, for how they feel or how, how they can enjoy life at the same time as-

Allan Andrews: Yeah

Andy Williams: as working.

Allan Andrews: Yeah. No, that's all very, that's all very true.

So we talk about growth and we need to get better at telling the story of growth and, and wealth creation. Yeah. You've given a very honest answer to that, so thank you. Uh, do you think there are still parts of the city of Birmingham that the market still undervalues? And we've had this conversation in my previous role a number of times

Andy Williams: Yeah, I think, I think we're seeing that.

How are we seeing that? We're seeing that in viability gaps. Mm. So we're not short of things coming through in planning permission terms, and we're, we're in a room here where you can see CGIs of things that are in the planning- Mm ... uh, process, either approved or in approval.

But, but you look out the window, they're not all coming forward right now. Yeah. So there, there is a viability piece where, there's definitely an [00:22:00] undervaluing of some of those areas. It takes, it takes a little bit of... There needs to be a tipping point in that, and two or three investors to come together to make things-

Allan Andrews: Yeah

Andy Williams: happen, to make that worthwhile. I think the population growth will shift that though. So if there's a bit... Seeing that demand to be living and working in those areas will probably increase the value for some of those investors, and therefore reduce some of the viability- Yeah ... gaps outside it.

Allan Andrews: And talking of investors, let's just touch briefly on institutional investors.

What, does Birmingham need from them?

Andy Williams: But we need to, we need to think differently about how investment stacks are made up really. Moving away from-- We've already moved away from, you know, public sector grants being, a predominant kickstart position for investors inside that to stacking up the financial investments in a different way and thinking about return in a different way, and that long-term [00:23:00] propos-proposition really for an investor, which is, you know, goes back to some of the things we said earlier about, you know, what's the offer into the marketplace, that credibility, that trust, the leadership that encourages an investor to make a long-term play.

I mean, I was with an investor last week in London wanting to do something within the MDC area, and the program that they're putting in front, you know, has, has big viability challenges. Mm. But they're not afraid of those viability challenges, not afraid to do that, but want the partnership from the city council inside of that.

Want the confidence that city council wants and is gonna be on the journey with them. And their pathway and their journey is well in excess of a decade, you know. So this is not one or two years in. No, this relationship point I think is really key. Yeah. Because there's so much volatility, whether it's a, whether it's a war in the Middle East, whether it's a cost of living crisis, whatever that is, you know, you've still got...

Investors still want to invest, but they wanna, do that in a credible way. [00:24:00]

Allan Andrews: Absolutely. So if you had an investor sat here, and you haven't, by the way- With five hundred million to deploy-

Andy Williams: Yeah ...

Allan Andrews: um, over the next decade in Birmingham, where would you suggest they look? Is it the

Andy Williams: MDC or- I would, I would look in the MDC area as the starting point.

Allan Andrews: Right.

Andy Williams: Um, because there's a whole range of focus around it. There's a whole range of partnership around it to make that work. And in certain parts of the MDC, there are some, instruments and tools to support that investment. For example, we have the investment zone at the Birmingham Knowledge Quarter.

So it should mean that it's more attractive to investors inside of it. And all this is about the investor's risk, right? Yeah. And how you, how you-- how an investor manages their risk profile as well as their return profile. Yeah. So I'd start there. Having said that, we also have something called the Mayoral Development Zone, which stretches Beyond the MDC to the east, to Arden Cross and to the [00:25:00] airport as well.

And that's about us bringing a regeneration story, powers and people together to try and see the benefits of investment by the MDC into the wider area. So we have the Tyseley Energy Park and the Innovation Campus that will do loads of stuff around health and sciences and further research and create jobs and opportunity, again, that we hope will bleed into the neighborhood with new housing.

Hopefully get the tram there as well at some point, the metro there at some point- Yeah ... um, as well as wider connectivity. So I definitely, uh, I would start in the MDC. I think we will always have that challenge, particularly with a whole bunch of new councilors here, um, sixty-three out of a hundred, where obviously a lot of them will want to see benefits inside their neighborhoods.

And we do too, so I'm not forsaking that. But if as a starting point, we, we would probably say, "Come and look at some of those MDC areas," but not limit ourselves to that.

Allan Andrews: Yeah. And I, I wasn't gonna touch too much on the, the [00:26:00] politics in this, particular conversation, maybe a follow-up one. But you've mentioned the change in political composition.

Andy Williams: Yeah.

Allan Andrews: Significant change. Um, as a senior officer here leading on regeneration, I'm assuming you've got incredible political will behind you because of that new member enthusiasm, new leadership and, and so on. I'm guessing that comes with, again, a bit of excitement, but also real opportunity for Birmingham as well.

Andy Williams: Yeah, it does. It, it comes with both inside that. I think, you know, the first point you've got to recognize that These new councillors are democratically elected across Birmingham. So there's a message inside of that, and we have to listen to that as officers and the politicians are listening to that.

You know, the people of Birmingham want to see things happening in their neighborhoods and in their communities. and a lot of that might be some of the simple things and the basic things, in whether it's roads, whether it's waste, whether it's a range of things inside- Yeah ...of that. [00:27:00] So there is that, there is that there.

But I think also you've got a whole new set of councillors that want to see jobs, want to see growth, want to see community wealth building, want to see the people of Birmingham benefit. So I think you'll see a harder push into some of that inclusive growth area that we talked about earlier. Obviously, with the makeup, you'll see, you'll see a broad range of priorities as well of what the administration wants to see here.

But there is an excitement- Mm ...around that. And, uh, it's also here in Birmingham, it's obviously a four-year term. So what we have as officers is stability.

Allan Andrews: Yeah.

Andy Williams: And obviously, within that four-year term, we will see both the mayoral and a general election inside that, and we will have some stability to drive some things through.

So the opportunity is to work with the new members, understand their priorities, implement their priorities, and then have a good three and a [00:28:00] half, nearly four years' worth go at them, really, which, you know, as an officer that's worked in the public sector for twenty-plus years or so, you can't ask for anything more than stability- Yeah ...in decision-making.

So plenty of challenges, but those are big opportunities.

Allan Andrews: No, absolutely. And that is the one-- Well, there's many benefits of all outs, but I take, I take the point. There is this not this sort of whole there could be change again next May and what do you do and how do you explain that to investors and so on.

So we'll start to wrap it up, Andy. I'm conscious of time. But let's say we were meeting again in ten years' time, and Birmingham has enjoyed a genuinely successful decade What would have changed here?

Andy Williams: Well, I think, for me, we will be seeing, a greater number of our young people within jobs and opportunities.

We'll be seeing more, people and places across the city that's connected.retaining more young people who are not choosing to move away from elsewhere. [00:29:00] We'd see less deprivation, less unemployment inside of that. Strong universities that are meeting the needs of the local community and residents inside of that.

And we'll see investments that have been-- that where we've moved from plan to delivery. So a decade is a, is a very good timeline actually 'cause- Mm ... that's twenty thirty-six, and that really is the big sign for HS2. We're expecting to see trains- Yeah ... in twenty thirty-six. And when you get off that train at Curzon Street, want you to be able to see and enjoy Birmingham because it's not on a page.

It's there physically, for people to come, visit, work, enjoy, and be part of.

Allan Andrews: I think that's a very, nice tone to end the conversation on, Andy. So thank you very much for your time.

Andy Williams: Pleasure.