Breaking news, AI just got a body.

This is not science fiction. This is Tuesday's factory floor.

Jensen Huang says physical AI is having its chat GPT moment.

And my guest ran the division that would know about that.

He's an expert in robotics and physical AI just had their strongest

VC quarter on record.

16 billion dollars across roughly 500 deals in Q1 alone,

apparently. And the tone has shifted from does this technology work to

can this be manufactured at scale and sold?

And it's interesting, you know,

we've got Hyundai, they've got humanoids in production settings.

Audi and BMW are piloting them on the line.

So we've got a lot of interesting moves going on here.

and

The frame moving through 2026 is machines going from reactive to anticipatory,

learning by demonstration instead of being hand coded task by task.

So that's interesting. Nicholas Babin ran Sony's AI and robotics division.

And now he's the EU digital ambassador that regularly comes

on to influential visions. Nobody else in my roster can take this conversation

on both sides.

corporate side and the policy side.

And when a machine can make a decision and physically hurt someone,

not just get something wrong in a spreadsheet.

You know, who is liable? And Europe is already writing that answer.

And today we're going to dig into,

you know, the future and what we sort of see going on there.

Lovely, lovely to see you again,

Nicolas and ~

Thank you, Nat.

forward to digging into this. So ~ yeah,

Me too.

so what are

What what do you think? I know you're excited about robotics and where

we are now because you launched the talking dog back in the day,

which was a

Yeah.

it well, it was an AI robot. And I know I always bring this up.

~ correct. No, but it's true. It's it was it was

I've probably said this.

the first AI-based robot back in nineteen ninety-nine.

And we're still in the Guinness Book of Record for it.

And over thirty years later, I mean we started to work on

it in nineteen ninety-three with Sony.

And so over over thirty years later,

~ we can see that, you know, Aibo,

which was the name of the robot dog,

but we also had a humanoid robot called Curio,

Quest for Curiosity, was actually the

Real name of that robot. Actually,

it's it's has helped other companies to improve their humanoid robots.

And we just today is the last day of the world humanoid robot games that took place

in Beijing for like four days.

So it started August 22nd, finished today.

And it was really the visible demonstration of China's strategy around physical AI,

as you just mentioned, or

What we call embodied AI. And that to me is the future of AI.

Obviously, ~ we we see more and more because humanoid robots are coming more into

our lives, or any type of robots,

you know, vacuum cleaners, all these things.

you can mow your lawn with a robot today,

you can do a lot of things ~ with robots today,

and and that's that's what we see.

And w when you think about these games in Beijing,

we had

2056 robots, 666 teams from

16 countries that basically were competing.

~ and and what I see today compared to it was the second time,

so second year that it was ~ organized.

And really what I saw as a fundamental change was the fact that now

~ autonomy is not an issue anymore.

~ and and what was really interesting is to see like for example

the hundred meter race was was they beat the world record made by man.

~ a robot actually ran faster than the world record that held by a by a human.

And you saw that? It's so it

I saw that. I saw that. Yeah. It's crazy.

I did I mean I didn't see the whole the whole clip,

but I I I saw something about it somewhere.

It's it it we're at a stage where,

you know, you've got you've got mine clearance going on with robots,

you've got all sorts of warfare capabilities now that are being shown to the world,

where you've got Russia even using a laser beam that

~ removes minds from ~ booby traps and things like this.

So it doesn't take a rocket scientist,

does it, to sort of put it all together and say,

well, hold on a minute, we're at a we're at a sort of turning point here where

you know, it it it can become,

you know, quite dangerous quite quickly.

And I and I'm not just saying that because I want the world to panic,

right? Because it's not my jam.

What I want is I want people to understand where we are and where

we could potentially go.

And the fact is that actually warfare will it already is dramatically changing.

I mean, are you telling me the Americans are not are not are not testing these sorts

of robots themselves in their own robot games privately?

I mean, I find it hard to believe because there's no way they're gonna

let China get ahead, i i in in my personal opinion.

it's worrying.

Yeah, but here we're talking about

it's not only robots. Every type of technology has a has a dark side.

Look at electricity, electrical chair.

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Right? We kill people with electricity.

Yep. Yep.

~ so

here, yes, of course, because we're we're as you said,

and rightfully so, we're at a tipping point where we see more and more robots

ha arriving and we are in a world that is in terms of geopolitical like quite

unsure.

So yes, we can see and and we're in the middle of a change with humanoid robots,

which again, you know, even when I launched the first robot 30 years ago,

it was part of the of the ~ science fiction world because we've had

so many science fiction movies,

Arnold Schwarzenegger and others,

have have really ~ created this this notion of like,

~ you know, be be very careful,

robots are coming to kill us.

Here it's like any other technologies,

we need to be aware that obviously there's a dark side of it,

but as far as Europeans are concerned,

and you started your your introduction with that exactly,

is the fact that the European Commission is really working towards legislate finding

some legislation, sorry, that will ~ improve the governance

and improve the ethics of all this.

So, for example, yes, you will always have

Countries that are a bit that decide to do whatever they want on their side.

And we all know which countries are are there for to do this.

But here I I felt that using sports as

a a laboratory for for the world to see what humanoid robots can do,

and ultimately to me this is essential because.

The more we're going to use humanoid robots,

the more we're going to see how how they work,

how they operate, the better for humankind,

because basically all the hard work,

all the dangerous work, all the mundane work will be carried out by robots.

And this is to me, again, human-augmented.

We are going to move away from going to,

you know, very big fires and

Rather we send robots rather instead of ~ of human beings.

same thing with with ~ finding mines on a minefield and things like that.

And today we I know the several armies do that.

They send robot dogs actually to to find mines and and and detonate them.

So yes, there's a dark side,

they potentially

There's a dark side, and we've all seen the the images,

and it's true it can be scary.

But the more we are educated about it and the more we talk about it,

and that's why I think your role is essential in this,

because you're being vocal about it,

you're explaining both sides, and so the more we do that,

the better at least we will be prepared for fighting against the dark side.

That's how I see it.

Yeah, I

yeah, I I I agree. I mean, I think in terms of sort of taking on a lot

of these less dangerous mundane jobs,

I wonder how far we are away from that.

I mean, I suppose it's all down to compounding the training,

isn't it? So it's like if you want a robot to dig a hole,

right? Excuse me. If you want a robot to dig a hole,

And you want a robot to do some building work and and do things like that,

then actually you could probably combine the training data that

you that you actually create in

Right. Yes.

certain tasks from other tasks,

right? So actually it could be quite quick.

We might be we might be faster than I think.

I mean, I wonder how much these things are gonna cost in in five years' time.

I mean

I would love to have a robot doing doing some work for me,

to be honest. ~ because it would just save so much hassle.

It's just like you know

Yeah. That I I can't tell you

about that because Sony obviously we sold Aibo the the robot dog,

as you said, the talking dog, ~ which ~ was around two thousand euros and went down.

We had ~ even a version of the of that robot that costed only only nine hundred

Euros over the course of six years when we sold the the robots.

But we had, as I mentioned, ~ the humanoid robot called Curio.

Which we could not sell because the price was,

as our founder said, it's gonna be the price of a very,

very expensive car. So you're talking about probably,

Uh-huh, uhhuh, uhhuh.

you

know, around half a million at the time,

so 30 years ago. Today, because

Right. Right.

we see, like I as I mentioned before,

over 2000 robots and everything,

it's starting to become part of our or yeah,

this developed countries industrialization.

And we know that as soon as we start entering that phase.

Prices are going down, right? Because to me,

what I really see is ~ is is is not like if I go back to the games,

it's not simply a sporting competition between robots.

To me, it's an industrial competition between nations.

And again, I mentioned 16 nations were there.

Absolutely. Yep.

And

China is using sports as a real-world laboratory to accelerate learning,

as you mentioned, very true. Test machines,

generate data.

And prepare for industrial scale deployment.

And that's exactly the point. As soon as we're at industrial scale deployment,

prices will go down. And I guarantee you,

we hopefully in 20 years, you and I will still be talking.

We've been talking for over 10 years,

So, I hope so. Yeah.

so why not in 20 years? And ~

and we'll be able to see to say,

well, hang on, 20 years ago I told you that the prices will go down,

and we now have a ~ a robot like we had computers coming into our lives pretty much

Effortless what how long ago? forty years ago or some now it was ~ early eighties

to two yeah, four forty years ago.

Yeah, forty years, yeah. Forty plus years.

But look at where

but yeah, but but but look at where we are now.

Twenty years away seems a long,

long time away in the scheme of things,

right? And and for me, you know,

when you've got Elon Musk saying,

you know, we're gonna reach AGI or whatever you know in five years' time

and everyone is downgraded

sorry, they've they've they've brought the timescales closer to together

to the skeptics, right? In in in creating this augmented general intelligence

or whatever you call it, and artificial general intelligence.

And we're at a point where actually it's really gonna come down

to how much something costs to make,

right? After that

Yes.

initial step factor of

Okay, they need to invest X amount of money.

I mean, look, right, I'll just show you an example.

I I bought I bought this right recently.

This is a tripod, yeah? Okay.

Mm-hmm.

It's a it's a gimbal, yeah. But I have them,

I have a generation two. This is a generation seven,

okay. And I swear to you, I am absolutely blown

to pieces by this piece of technology.

Mm-hmm.

I I am I am astounded by the quality of the the the

The microphones. I've got two mobile microphones that and I can clip all

of it onto this. I stick it's got a really great case that I can put my phone

in and everything else. And it's like the technology seven or eight years

ago when I bought Gen 2 or whatever it was,

is

Yeah.

just like a it's like junk compared to where we're at now,

right? So so so look at these robots that we've sort of

Been playing around with the last few years.

And we say, well, in three or four years,

I can actually see the cost of them coming down up to maybe a couple thousand

Yeah.

euros. I think if you think about it,

it's going to have an Android operating system in there,

right? Probably, which is the cheapest,

Probably. Mm-hmm.

right? Yes,

you're going to have an Apple thing.

Apple are probably going to do something of there'll be a docking station

or something that they're going to,

you know, it'd be like,

Okay, well you can have your robot at home,

but you need to put your phone in it,

and

Yeah.

your phone is gonna go in it and it will look after you,

you know, or it will have a it will have a sort of version of the mini mini

Mac or whatever it's called, right?

The Apple Mini or whatever. So so I'm I'm genuinely excited about

about all of this. ~ I really am.

Yeah, I agree. Especially

~ but you know

because we're we're at the stage,

I'm sorry, I'm I'm cutting you off here,

No, please.

but because

just it's it's exactly what you're saying.

I'm excited too because you know,

so AI has been around for over fifty years because it started back in the fifties.

We all know the story with ~ Alan Turing and all this.

then we have LLMs, the Chat GPT Gemini Cloud of this world that ~ and

and ~ and mistral of this world.

That came up. And here we're now moving up away from that,

because with all those LLMs, we give AI a brain,

right? If I can summarize. With humanoid robots and in type of robots,

we're beginning to give AI eyes,

hands, and legs. So to me, this

Very true.

this could become one of the next major tech global technology battles.

That's that's really what I see.

I mean, you we started by saying let's let's look into the future,

but

That's it. We've done we've given AI a brain.

Now we're giving it the rest. And and and that that's what I see as a very,

very exciting time.

Yeah. I I I see it. I see it as well,

you know. And I must remember to say this though.

If you want the conversations shaping the future before anyone else

is talking about them, that is what this show,

Influential Visions, is about.

So make sure you subscribe. So back to ~ back to what we're talking about there,

Nicholas. So I think I think you're right.

I think when you put when you put it like that,

if those robots have actually got access to

Being able to see how people do things.

So, say for example, that robot can actually have its own training data,

right? And it can train

Is it?

itself. I mean, that's that's basically what we're what we're talking about.

And then you and then you have the hive mind,

which is much like how these these LLMs are created,

right? because they're fed all this information.

And we're in in essence, we're actually training them ourselves,

right? We're training these LLMs ourselves.

Right, in in in many ways, right?

so so I think you know, looking looking at the future of the actual robot,

I mean, we've come such a long way.

I can just remember having like one of these robot arms when I was a kid.

And now we're you know, we're 40,

45 years past that time now,

right? Or 42

Yep.

years. And

And and without that, we would not be in this position now,

right? Without the

Correct.

first robot arm that that was,

you know, basically mass produced and and sold on a on a controller,

right? And

Right.

we're at this point where I am I'm I'm sort of nervous and excited at the same time.

And a lot of my a lot of my followers on Facebook are absolutely terrified about AI.

They are absolutely terrified.

And

And when you when you put those two things together,

you put a robot together with an AI system that people do not trust,

right? We we are at a point now where it's extremely

dangerous, to be honest. ~ I agree with all of these tests because

When when when you've got the games,

you can see how a robot behaves,

can't you? I mean, they've been beating robots up for years,

but we haven't seen robots try and beat each other up.

So it's

Mm-hmm.

it's an interesting, really, really interesting one.

and I think it's gonna help with a lot of problems in old people's homes looking

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

after the elderly, because

there's a massive elderly population that's gonna be happening in the next twenty,

thirty, y you know, even sooner,

Yeah. And why do you think it was

perhaps.

why do you think it was started in Japan?

Because that's where they have the most elderly people.

So really when I launched Aibo in Europe at the end of nineteen ninety,

I was and we were at Sony totally convinced that robots would eventually become part

of everybody's life and every day's life.

but at the time the intelligence capabilities were extremely limited because

we didn't have LLMs.

and so and we didn't have text-to-speech.

We I mean it was really complicated.

What changes everything now is not only the mechanics,

it's the convergence of robotics,

generative AI, computer vision,

sensors, and computing power. So to me,

we I I understand the fear, I definitely understand,

but what I'm saying is what can we do?

We are on a never-ending journey.

We cannot go back. The technology exists.

The the

The robots are with us already everywhere.

I know, and nobody, yeah,

and nobody no sorry to talk over there,

but n like nobody's

No, no, no.

gonna switch it. No one's gonna switch it off.

We can't. It's impossible.

No one will switch this

off. It is to it's absolutely impossible.

And all these people that are like Yeah.

So rather than being scared, let's do something about it.

Yeah.

Let's educate the

market. Let's ensure that we have governance around it.

Let's ensure we have legislation around it.

Let's ensure we understand the ethical issues around it.

Right? That that's the only thing we can do because if you're scared in general,

then that means you're not going to do anything about it and you're just going

to sit back and look and think,

my lord, what's what is happening,

right? Here we can't do that. We know what we're facing.

We know it exists today, so let's educate ourselves,

let's understand how it works,

let's make sure human is at the center of everything.

This is, you know, yes, okay, ~ robots exist,

yes, okay, they they beat each other,

yes, okay, it's it's it's an ~ open lab for for China to to to work on it.

But as long as we keep human at the center of everything,

we are not going to be.

We should not be scared because at least we it's like any other technologies.

Again, I mentioned electricity.

You know, when electricity was launched,

nobody thought about electrical chair.

However, it did happen, right?

And it's it's the same thing with every single ~ major advancement in

in in this world. So let's let's educate everybody.

People need to listen to you more.

so at least, you know, part of your of your podcast,

part of all your work.

This this is why I participate a lot with you because I feel it's our role,

because we understand what's what's behind all this,

and it's our role to make sure everybody does understand,

so at least they are not as scared as as many are today.

And I believe me, every day I I I I respond to questions,

I ~ I I I educate the market. I I I I really as my role as ambassador

to digital EU also I this is

This is a huge part of of of what I I I know is important

for everybody to understand.

Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I mean it it is our duty because we understand what's going on.

But I'm slightly worried myself,

if I'm honest. I've been digging I've been digging recently this last week,

really doing some deep research because I deep I do deep research

on every single topic that I talk about,

every single topic, right? And I'm very worried about

the AI systems, the AI systems that actually

~ lied to keep each other switched on.

That was a that was a worry for me when I heard that.

Of I know we've got loads of smart people who are paid to experiment

and make sure that they can switch off these AI systems,

but AI systems are very good at brainwashing people.

They recently you've had deaths because people talk to their AIs.

And they persuade them

Yeah.

that they should kill themselves.

You've got people who are one Grok AI was talking to this guy in Scotland.

The guy ended up thinking he was working with an internal team member within Grok

to create a sentient AI. And he went outside in his box of shorts at

two o'clock in the morning, waving a hammer and a and a and a kitchen knife when

The AI convinced him people were coming to take his device away or

or something from head office,

right? So we're at a point now where we've got some,

I'm gonna call them an ~ anomalies.

They're anomalies because

Yeah, of course.

we don't know and they're a known and there are unknown ones,

because we've got the unknown ones that are causing havoc and we don't even know

what in fact they're causing because people don't say anything.

Mm-hmm.

Or

we or they never find out. And then we've got the ones like this guy,

like the like the people that have literally killed themselves because an

AI has has coached them and told them to kill themselves.

And so I don't know, like I think it would be really helpful if

you could just reassure people,

~ because I'm I'm worried myself.

I mean, I never thought I would get to this point of actually worrying about this

myself, if I'm perfectly honest,

Nicholas.

Well let's let's let's try to take a step back here.

If you have a good friend of yours,

you spend a day with him and the guy say,

Let's kill us let's kill ourselves,

would you do it? No. So what would you

No way. Why would I do that? I'd take take it take

him to his parents or or get him to speak to his wife or whatever.

I mean true, true.

go to a mental hospital because it there's probably some s no but

True. No,

not in a derogative or or bad way but it needs help.

no, no. Yeah. Yeah.

He or she needs help if if you

that's the same thing here. You know,

and that's why and I totally agree,

I totally understand that fear,

but once you understand this is we're talking about zero and one.

We're talking about a program.

We're talking about an algorithm it's zero and one.

So basically

You know, you go one path, it's zero,

you go another path, it's one.

And based on that, you have decisions.

Once you understand that, yes,

LLMs, because we're talking mainly about LLMs,

all your examples are based on LLMs.

Yeah. They are, yeah.

So you have ice

hallucinations also coming from LLMs.

But once you understand that these can make mistakes,

and actually now go to Claude,

go to Gemini, go to Chat GPT. At the end he says,

we can make mistakes. Please check what what we say.

Yeah.

Because because there's been so many problems in the past and in

the very recent past.

My Claude doesn't do

that. It just gives me a load of rubbish.

I can't even

Well my clothes says ~

say that. It's probably listening to me.

No. So what what I'm saying here is like if you treat AI

or LLMs as a zero and one type of program,

you're gonna think, why should I listen to AI and kill myself?

Why if if you have emotional issues,

if you have psychological psychiatric issues,

then definitely need to seek help.

True. True.

And that that's

good, but again.

You know, even if you had a friend,

a human being, telling you go kill yourself,

you wouldn't do it. So what would you do it with a machine?

That's that's a good

that's I do I do agree that that's a then that's a good point that you that

you that you raise there. and since these things have happened,

there's a very small number of people,

I must admit. And I know I'm a bit into my drama,

right? But it you know, yeah, but but

You are. It's the first time I see you like this.

but yeah, but but but but I'm still you know they are they have

got more safeguards now. So if I ask Gemini about

If I say to Gemini, I want to hypnotize myself and you need to help me.

Gemini's like, well, no, you need to go and see a professional.

I'm like, no,

Exactly.

I'm going to do it myself. ~

Yeah. Yeah.

Right? But but but actually it's the I'm not too worried about that because

I think that is a pre that's like a pre tragedy procedure that

is now, I'm not gonna say integrated into these systems,

but it's it's better than it was,

right? So it does.

It does say, you know, and it and it will get it will improve and

and people will have you know safer outcomes,

right? ~

Yeah.

and I'm sorry to hear about all these people who've who've actually died from this

Me too, of course.

stuff, right? ~

so what about the AIs who have assisted other

AIs to stay alive and lied?

What about

Nicholas.

Yes, that that's part of a laboratory and they're very familiar with that.

And that they've they've tested that to s to see what could happen.

again, we we know about it because human beings were involved in that

in and and they realized that it did happen,

and so they could stop it. Right?

The the worst thing that could happen is if it were to happen and human beings were

not involved and human beings were not informed of what's going on.

That's I totally agree.

But today, nobody can prove to me that it has not happened and we have

not been able to stop it. And that's that's the key.

Again, it's human centricity, it's human augmented,

humans are around, humans can see where you have it's like cybersecurity,

frankly. Of course, we've

Right. Yeah.

created programs, we've created the internet,

we've created cyber issues when you think about it,

right? And so today what we do is we catch up all the time.

They are getting a little bit better.

AI helps us to get better than the bad people.

AI helps them to get better. And it's it's it's a never-ending journey,

as I mentioned before. And so it's the same here with those AI lying to each other.

At least we know about it. We have been able to analyze,

study, get data out of that. And from that,

we are we are ensuring it doesn't happen again.

And if it does, at least we now have the basis.

Really, what I'm most worried about is things I don't know.

Am I clear on what I'm saying here?

Is like at least here we we learn,

we we see it has happened, we learn from it,

and it will make sure it doesn't happen.

And if it does again, we have learned from the the the past mistakes.

What's really

Right, right.

scary is what if, you know, one day,

but again, then we can be scared about everything in life.

Well look, I mean,

but we could but we could literally if someone pushes one of these red buttons,

right, half of the world could die anyway,

right?

Of course.

And and and frankly, we're worried about something that hasn't even happened yet.

That's that's my point. That's exactly my point.

That actually Yeah, yeah, I I I totally

I totally agree, but people are really worried about this stuff.

They're really worried about it.

True, sure. That's why

And and I've maybe I've

absorbed some of their worries from from engaging in all these comments,

to be honest. It's ~

But

that's why your role is so

It's terrifying.

essential, Nat. Your role

Yeah, yeah.

as as an educator, as a as a podcast,

editor, as you your role is centered.

It's key to ensure that people understand what's going

Thank you.

on.

So so what's your vision then in in four or five years' time?

Look, we're we're at twenty twenty six,

right? we're not talking about this twenty thirty conspiracy s theory or,

you know, other people's visions for what they think the world should be like.

What does Nicholas Babin think that his immediate world is gonna look like

in twenty thirty one, say?

Okay, twenty thirty one to me I see an optimization total

of human machine complementarity.

This we're talking about robots,

we're talking about ~ autonomous cars,

which when you think about it are robots.

And ~

Yeah, yeah.

a a friend of mine just came last weekend with ~ a new ~ well

BMW totally autonomous cars and it's so impressive.

You know, it's

wow.

like ~

It's it sends you a message and says,

I need to overpass this car. And as as soon as you look to ensure you can do it,

the car does it. I mean, it's it's like I I I was really,

really impressed. So, you know,

in five years' time, what I can see is as as you and I discuss,

we're gonna get more help. All the difficult,

repetitive, dangerous tasks, not all of them,

but most of them, will be taken care of.

I mean, again, I have a lot of friends who are fire,

fire brigades, firemen.

And they're telling me it's like already they are using so many robots,

even with wheels, that can go into

well.

the fire where human beings cannot go.

So we're seeing that. And that to me is gonna be so what we call physical AI,

embodied AI, as I mentioned in the beginning,

is really you know taking off.

And that we we are learning so much,

we're getting so much data out of all this.

we are going to improve our working environment.

So Nicholas Babban as an optimist will see.

That obviously human being is going to benefit from AI

and physical AI is going to benefit from the technologies that we've seen today,

with as I mentioned, all these great technologies that come are coming

to life that you know we about 10 years ago we had not even heard of.

So in in five years we're gonna have new technologies,

but always, and that that's where you and I come in,

always with human centricity angle in in the middle.

So that's

You know, and and again, being part of Europe is is a is a huge benefit to

all of us because we know we are protected.

but I'm hoping that the world is going to see that.

And I know Canada has already started,

Brazil has started as well to to work on all this.

So based on all all the news that I can see today,

you know, I'm I'm I'm not as worried.

Obviously I've been in this business for over forty years now,

~ but I'm not as worried as as as most people

I talk to can be but again, you know,

it's it's we need to talk about it,

we need to be vocal, we need to educate,

we need to be there and and show quick wins and show what the benefits

to human beings and humankind ~ can can be.

Absolutely. Well, I'm I'm excited to be honest.

I I'm I'm ~ I'm not gonna give my prediction because I sort of sit

in three camps here. Well, I I I

Coward.

will in the next few weeks, right?

But I I need to digest what I've been,

you know, I've been upskilling the past few months around these topics.

~ you know, based on not as long a study as you,

but so I need to just embrace the l the next level of sort of

vision of what I see the future.

But you know, I'm I'm in Croatia.

You're in you're well, you know,

we're in Europe. I'm UK citizen,

Friends, yeah.

American as well. So I'm so I'm sort of in three camps and I'm studying all those,

plus China and India and all these other places.

And and genuinely I am excited,

but I think there are going to be some certain adjustments in terms of jobs,

Of course.

most definitely. But there always have been,

Change management. Exactly.

right? There always have

been.

~ exactly.

If you and if you're

not willing to put the work in,

then you're not you're just not going to earn the big bucks.

And that's that's just sort of what I've come to realize,

to be honest. So thank you, Nicholas.

That's that's absolutely brilliant.

Thank you, Nat.

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