Cllr Paul Swaddle - 15/10/26
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Simon Gartshore: ... [00:00:00] Thank you, for joining us today, and welcome to the latest in our series of Kanda's Better Places podcasts, with leaders of, of local authorities.

Um, we're absolutely delighted to be joined today by Councillor Swaddle, the leader of Westminster City Council, with Westminster obviously having returned to Conservative control in May after Labour's surprise victory in twenty twenty-two. And so, so Paul, if it's not too late, uh, congratulations once again on the election results.

And I think the election campaign was run on what many would see as sort of very traditional Conservative and local government values around clean streets, efficiencies, making clear your separation from decisions taken by the, the Labour mayor, and obviously also some quite ambitious enforcement targets for the authority.

I appreciate leading is, is more of a race rather than a sprint, but reflecting on those first five-- on the first five months, how do you see the administration having progressed against these targets, and [00:01:00] what do you see as your biggest achievement so far?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, look, we set out with a very clear vision: safe streets, a clean city, value for money, and thriving growth.

Those were the four key tenets of the campaign, um, and that's what we promised residents, and that's what we have been delivering and focused on in our first hundred days. Here we are at a hundred and sixty-one days, um, and very much delivering on the enforcement, regime. We've appointed Caroline Serjen as our first ever cabinet member for enforcement.

We've seen our start to tackle the dockless bikes issues. We haven't solved them. I'm not pretending we have. But they have paid over three hundred thousand pounds in fines, and we've already seized over a thousand bikes and impounded them for being badly parked. Now we're gonna work with the operators to make sure that a scheme is delivered that works, and we hope that that might be a, a precursor to the enforcement that eventually TfL might get round to doing.

Um, despite the [00:02:00] mayor saying it needs to be sorted, it's actually his responsibility to sort it, so perhaps he should pull his finger out and get TfL on the case. I'm very willing to work with them to help deliver a scheme. Westminster is the heart of London, and we know the problems. and we're n-we're not s-we're not stopping there.

Um, we've doubled our enforcement teams on the streets with city inspectors out in every ward, and residents are able to now report bikes on the online Report It system, both for individual operators, but also just for overflowing bays. Um, we've also been starting to tackle the issue of short-term lets.

Um, I have held a summit with the operators to talk about how we can work together. There are issues. The delays in the licensing scheme from government is not helping, and it's also the scheme that they're implementing doesn't tackle the core issues, which is the number of nights. Now, we know that the government actually has this data 'cause it's reported via HMRC, but that data isn't [00:03:00] being shared inside government.

So I'm gonna keep rattling their cage until I can get some sense and making sure that they are actually implementing that. Um, and then beyond enforcement, we've been running our largest ever budget engagement exercise with nearly twelve and a half thousand people engaged to tackle the very serious, financial issues that we're facing at Westminster

Simon Gartshore: Thank you.

And the budget engagement exercise obviously very, very timely. And, um, clearly funding is, you know, always gonna be key to delivering ambitions at a local authority level. So with a hundred million funding gap coming as a result of the government's fair funding review, um, firstly, what are you doing to challenge this?

and secondly, if that doesn't work, where do you see your authority going to fill that gap? And how will that impact on those priorities you've set out?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, let's be very clear about the scale of the problem. We have a grant on variable spending of two hundred and [00:04:00] nineteen million from government.

They are cutting that to a hundred and nineteen million, near, near fifty percent cut. Now, that's alongside other budget pressures. Uh, demands in adult social care and children's services are increasing, and that means that overall, over a three-and-a-half, four-year period, the gap in the budget is a hundred and sixty million pounds.

Now, government, in its plans for Westminster, planned for us to increase the council tax by seventy-five to a hundred percent. We're looking at everything we can do to control the budget, to prioritize where people want money spent, which is why we've done this massive consultation exercise, and to ensure that we get to the lowest possible council tax rise that we'll have.

But we've been very clear, there will be cuts, and there will be a significant council tax rise. This is [00:05:00] explicitly the fault of the government and the previous Labour administration for not tackling this issue. We went into this year with nineteen million pounds of reserves being spent on this year's budget.

That's a nineteen million pound hole in next year's budget that Labour just didn't tackle

Simon Gartshore: Uh, and obviously linked to some of that funding challenges, you know, turning to growth, um, and, securing and supporting economic growth obviously was a key part of the election commitments, and I appreciate that direction of travel's been set out in subsequent growth statement, which was launched by Councillor Barnes last month at LREF.

Um, how are you sort of going about looking to embed that growth strategy within the city council? Because I appreciate there's not always full financial upside, um, but how are you going about embedding that and sort of are there any key milestones we could be, should be looking for going forward?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, as you said, uh, Councillor Barnes, who's [00:06:00] our cabinet member for growth and planning, um, launched his growth statement or our growth statement.

Um, and I think the first thing is we see growth and planning as intrinsically linked. Planning is not something that's done elsewhere. Planning is an enabler, not a disabler, and that's where I think it's a very different start in terms of our thinking. we've identified five priority sectors with retail, hospitality and visitor experience, creative industries, health and life sciences, AI and digital technologies, and the built environment.

And what we see is important for those is not only are they areas for growth for the nation, because at the end of the day, Westminster powers four percent of the entire UK GDP. We also see it as a growth area for our residents. These are good quality, high quality jobs, and these are ones that will survive the current changes.

And we will hopefully see, if we get it right, that investment coming into [00:07:00] Westminster, that employment coming into Westminster, and then that growth reaching our residents through that, those employment routes. But alongside that, we're also calling for fiscal devolution. What we want is an economy in Westminster where, we grow the economy, we benefit from it here in Westminster.

At the moment, we don't. And therefore, what we do on growth is we do it because it's right, not because it works well for the council. It doesn't deliver anything for our residents, and in fact, sometimes it's a cost to the council. But we do it because it's right, and we want to see thriving growth. Now, we've embedded that in our four key tenets, and what that has turned into is a new corporate strategy, which we'll be launching soon, that will see everything we do judged against those criteria to make sure that we are delivering on those promises, not just for the last hundred and sixty-one days, but right up to twenty thirty.

Simon Gartshore: and fiscal devolution, as you said, is a, a hot topic. [00:08:00] Uh, how are you going about sort of making that, that case for greater fiscal devolution?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, it's part of the conversation that we're having now about funding. Uh, we're pushing our MPs. Um, unfortunately, they, in two of the cases, voted for, and one was absent when the vote happened for the cuts to Westminster, which I don't think is standing up for Westminster.

But what they can do now is step up and add to the argument for fiscal devolution. If we were to get ten percent of the business rates raised in Westminster, then we would be able to fund services that we provide for all the people who aren't residents. Because Westminster is unique.

We have two hundred thousand residents and eight hundred thousand visitors a day. They drop rubbish. They cause antisocial behavior. They need things servicing. We do that. Every protest in London comes through Westminster, typically ten every weekend. We're cleaning up after this. We don't get any extra funding for these things.[00:09:00]

But if we saw some of the benefits of growth in Westminster in terms of the business rates or income tax, then we would be able to make a better Westminster for everybody, residents and visitors.

Simon Gartshore: So that's sort of the challenge of being at the heart of a, a global city, and that, that, by its very nature, brings, you know, really significant pressure and costs ultimately, doesn't it?

So, uh, on the sort of growth statement, I think it obviously for the first time, it also recognized that importance of working with businesses, business representatives, and, and the property sector. So just really interested to know how sort of you're going about resetting relations or building those relationships with those groups and finding a, a shared way forward.

And I guess, um, secondly, do you see there sort of more opportunities for public-private partnerships and shared communications around impact going forward?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, look, eighteen months ago, two years ago, when I took leadership of the Conservative group in Westminster, [00:10:00] um, I took an active decision to engage business right from the start.

The council can do lots of things But doing the right things that will help growth, we need to know what will help, what will hinder. You know, we've got levers, we could pull the wrong ones. And I think government is often pulling the wrong ones, and the reason it's doing it is because it's not talking to businesses about the impact.

So I've been out and about talking to people, doing podcasts with companies, um, as an example, um, to really learn and understand what the priorities are of diff-- lots of different sectors, whether that be developers, retailers, whether that be hotels. I've been speaking to them all, and then also speaking to the organizations that represent those bodies, uh, those companies.

So for example, working with the business improvement districts. Um, BIDs I think are a vital part of Westminster, and that's why I've been very happy to do, um, lots of work [00:11:00] with them over the past few years on important campaigns like tax-free shopping, uh, changing to the business rates to make it more equitable But also working with them to ensure that the money they're spending, and they raise a lot of money from businesses who are relatively happy to pay it.

Because if you look at their, uh, ballots, you know, ninety-six percent, uh, approval, uh, for some recently, my gosh, I would die for those numbers. Any

Simon Gartshore: politician would,

Cllr Paul Swaddle : yeah. Indeed. We'd be very happy. Um, but that means that businesses are backing that scheme, and it's a great way of having a strong voice for business, a way of investing in the area from business that pays for things that we would not able to pay for as a council.

And that's why it's vital we collaborate. But beyond that, we're also very clear that Westminster's open for business and that we want businesses to come here. Uh, and that's why we've done things, uh, around planning and redefining our retrofit first [00:12:00] policy to be much clearer. And in fact, you've seen, I think, probably the first example of that this week with a planning application going through three to two, uh, at planning, uh, which was a, uh- A vote

Simon Gartshore: on party lines, actually.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Yes. Well, uh, I can't comment. Planning is not a- Indeed ... party political football. Um, but what we are doing is making sure that we have the right people on planning who understand the challenges for businesses and don't just see business as a cash cow, and that can do everything and spend all of their money making everything the way other people want it.

There has to be some commercial reality.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. And, and you don't, I guess, philosophically ever see any, any risks. Historically, there's always been a, a risk or a concern that, you know, relying too much on the private sector to deliver services, you know, could deli-- dilute some of that local accountability.

You don't see that as a

Cllr Paul Swaddle : risk? No. I mean, we, we deliver an awful lot of our services ourselves, but we also need to partner where it's right because councils aren't the expert in doing everything. And if we [00:13:00] think we are, then we're kidding ourselves. Um, and that's why we work with all sorts of partners, whether it be Veolia to help collect the rubbish, whether it be FM Conway to mend the streets.

But also we need to work in partnership in other ways. So for example, I think there's a massive disconnect between the money that developments deliver in the form of Section 106 and CIL and other payments that residents don't understand where it's come from because it's handed out by the council in a way that is not entirely transparent.

So we want to improve that so that people see that when something has happened in their area, they also can visibly see and connect the benefits with that development, and therefore be proud of the fact that actually that's been helpful for their community, and they've got something from it.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah, and that clear sort of transparency between that funding that's been raised and, I, I appreciate planning is-- isn't, you know, completely within your remit, but obviously you've- Well,

Cllr Paul Swaddle : as I've s- As I've said at many an event- ... uh, I've [00:14:00] been a counselor for twenty-four years, and I've never sat on planning, and I'm not intending to start now.

Um, but, but planning is an important part of what the council does.

Simon Gartshore: In-indeed, and obviously you've no doubt heard how hard the development sector is finding it to make investments stack up, um, in the face of, some really significant economic headwinds. So again, I, I guess it comes to that transparency point.

You know, has the administration given any thought as to what more it can do to, to make it easier, to make those happen? Because I think obviously the last thing you'd want is sites stalled and not coming forward.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, look, there are things that we can do. Um, some of it takes a long time. Mm-hmm. So city plans and things like that are not things you can turn out quickly.

Uh, but we've started that journey, but that's thirty months of journey. But there are things that we can do and are doing today that are changing outcomes. Um, our approach and our political leadership on this, from myself and from Tim Barnes and from Jim Glenn, have shown the industry that [00:15:00] we will want to change, and we want to see things brought forward.

And I think that's an important message because I think people were very shy of bringing things forward in the past four years because there was so much uncertainty that was compounded by the planning, process at Westminster. We want to offer more certainty and to be having early conversations, and that's why we've introduced new communication tools within the planning function to allow much earlier conversations.

Really outline really early before things potentially even are owned, you know, to say, "Well, actually, is this even feasible?"

Simon Gartshore: Pre-out in principle.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Yeah. Um, and this means that people can get this early steer.

Simon Gartshore: Mm-hmm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Um, and that I think is valuable because there's so much time wasted, and time wasted is money.

the other thing that we're doing is working with, um, looking at the policies and how they're interpreted because the same policies apply in lots of places in London, but they're applied differently. There's different emphasis, and we want to be [00:16:00] more pragmatic about our understanding of them. Retrofit First as a good example.

Um, but there are more things that we can do in that area, and that's where we need to continue to work with- The industry to work out how to best do that. and that's why working with people like Grosvenor, Crown Estate, WPA, all help us understand what will get things moving.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah, great. And some-- perhaps the sector which is hardest hit at the moment I appreciate is, is housing with obviously registered providers who've historically taken on affordable homes being largely absent from the market.

Higher interest rates, skyrocketing construction, you know, reduced returns and declining land values. Obviously quite a bleak picture, particularly for the housing sector. And I think even, um, this week it was announced Taylor Wimpey are effectively withdrawing from the London market. And now obviously the mayor has set a, an ambitious target of, uh, in the draft London plan of about twelve thousand new homes over the next ten years in [00:17:00] Westminster alone.

Um, what are your views on the target, and how are you going to go about delivering the new homes-

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, I think- New residents. I think the mayor needs to tell us how he thinks we're gonna be able to do

Simon Gartshore: that

Cllr Paul Swaddle : because he has got funding. Yeah. And he needs to release that funding to us to then be able to get on with the job.

Now, we're waiting to hear final numbers But at the moment, I'm not hearing good things.

Simon Gartshore: Mm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : That will make it very challenging. However, I will point out that Westminster is building homes, and we're one of the very few in Central London who is doing so. So working with Mount Anvil at Church Street- Yeah ... a project initiated under the previous Conservative administration, we're building hundreds of new homes.

Now, the numbers on those projects are very challenging, and we are working that through at the moment. But we will hopefully come to a solution. And there are some things about flexibility, about location, about how things are looked at that will allow us to perhaps make sure that things do come forward that should come forward.[00:18:00]

Um, but it is very challenging. And some of those things we can't change. So it's all well and good giving us a target, but if we've got no tools to deliver, you know, they're taking away our money- Yeah ... giving us a target, um, and the, uh, economic climate in the country because of the government is declining.

Simon Gartshore: Mm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, that's great. Thank you very much for the target, but what am I supposed to do with it? so the challenge at the moment is the, the mayor and the government haven't said how, how we can achieve that. And of all the places in London, Westminster's the hardest of the hard.

Simon Gartshore: Mm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Um, but we are doing delivery on our regeneration sites at Church Street and at Ebury.

Um, and we'll continue with those and make sure that they're the very best they can possibly be and deliver as many units as possible.

Simon Gartshore: Indeed. And so obviously that brings us sort of talking about the, the mayor, to some of those more strategic relations, which obviously are hugely important as a leader of, of Westminster and, you know, Westminster having a profile like few others.

And, appreciate there's been some quite clear flashpoints with the [00:19:00] mayor over OSDC and licensing. So I guess firstly, how do you see that relo- relationship evolving over the next 18 months? And obviously I appreciate it, the mayor has a big decision to take by next spring as to whether he chooses to try and run for a fourth term.

so how do you see that relationship evolving? And secondly, uh, were there any lessons over the very public disagreement over licensing and vertical drinking in the summer?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, let's be very, very, very clear at the start. There was never any attempt to ban standing up drinking by Westminster.

Simon Gartshore: Okay.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : This is a fabrication of the facts from the report. What the report actually did was relax licensing rules- Mm ... in Westminster. The last Labour administration in Westminster didn't tackle this issue. They always knew that there had to be new licensing laws in place, uh, new licensing regulations in place by the 1st of October.

They hadn't started the [00:20:00] process. That gave us a very short window to put it through the process. We did it. We've, uh, decreased the, uh, zone in the middle where there are more restrictions, opening up parts of Mayfair and Covent Garden. We are now pledged to look at that again in twelve to eighteen months and keep evolving that policy.

But we had to do it quickly, so we did it. We've got it out the door because otherwise there would have been no rules at all, and that would benefit nobody Now, the other thing is that I do not think that the mayor's office and the government really understand the challenges in the hospitality sector in Central London.

Up to a third of businesses in Soho are trading at a loss, and that's because of all of the things that government has piled on them. Not because of the council. It's business rates, it's national insurance, it's minimum wage that are having [00:21:00] massive impacts on that sector, and they're all piled on top, on top of each other.

And then alongside that, we have the Met who are saying to pretty much every application, "We're gonna oppose this on the basis that people will become victims of crime." Well, how ridiculous is that? That you shouldn't allow a restaurant to open because the people who come will have their bag stolen.

Simon Gartshore: Or bring more people to the area- Yeah

potentially.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well,

Simon Gartshore: but- Who could be victims, yeah.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : But it's, but it's- Yeah ... it's not that those people will cause crime.

Simon Gartshore: No.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : It's that other people will cause crime. So, I think it's the Met's job to deal with that. Now, we are working with the Met. Mm. One of the first things I did was met with them at senior level.

and we are seeing live facial recognition being brought in, in the West End, and it's having an impact. Mm. That is going to make, hopefully, the West End a place that criminals don't want to be. That solves the problem for Westminster, and that's my job.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : So, we wanna work with [00:22:00] them to ensure that it is safe.

There are other challenges. The lack of a late-night tube on Thursday nights. Everybody knows, except the mayor- Mm ... that Thursday is the new Friday.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : So we need that to enable people to get in and out of the city, both visitors and workers. Because at the end of the day, the people who arrive and clear up things at 5:00 AM also need to get to work.

Mm. So we need that support in there. and alongside that, we also need a better access at Oxford Circus Tube. If the pedestrianization goes ahead as planned, which it is, then it's vital that access is improved because so many people relied on the buses to get along a very long street.

Simon Gartshore: Mm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Without that, there needs to be other ways for people to get around.

Oxford Circus is not an accessible station at the moment. Lifts will be difficult, but more escalators so that it's easier to get out. Every day as I come in and out of Oxford Circus Tube, almost every day I have [00:23:00] to help someone up and down the stairs with a buggy because it's really difficult. so yeah, we need to tackle those issues.

Um, and it's a national and mayoral issue alongside a Westminster issue. Now, that said, I am not spoiling for a fight with the mayor, right? I will work cross-party. I have offered to- Mm ... work, but time and time again, he comes out punching- And that's got to stop. That's not good for Westminster. And if Wes-Westminster is four percent of the country's, GDP, then we are a massive part of London and a huge contributor to the UK, and we don't fix the rest of the country by breaking Westminster.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. And some i-in that sort of conversation with the Mayor, I appreciate one of the, one of the areas you've been looking at and calling for is about obviously the distribution of funding from what is likely to be a forthcoming overnight levy on hotels. Um, certainly pushing more for local [00:24:00] retention.

how's that conversation progressing at the moment?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, London Councils has been leading this. So going back to the cross-party working, this is a campaign backed by leaders across Westminster from all parties, asking for a minimum fifty percent of the overnight levy to be passed down to the boroughs, to then prioritize the needs in that borough.

That means that if we got it, we could do the things that we've been talking to the visitor economy about in terms of ensuring, uh, safer streets, clean city, and making sure that the, uh, hotel and hospitality industry thrive. And that means putting money into, um, marketing, et cetera. Now, some of that is best done by the Mayor.

Simon Gartshore: Mm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Absolutely. But those local micro decisions about how things are done in the city are vitally d-- to be done by the city council. We know how to deliver it. We have that attention to detail. We've seen on other projects that the [00:25:00] Mayor may have a macro view, but detail is not best done by the GLA. So we wanna make sure that, that happens, and that will see a massive impact for Westminster, because if the levy is raised at the rates that are suggested, which I think are way too high-

Simon Gartshore: Yeah ...

Cllr Paul Swaddle : it's gonna raise somewhere in the region of eighty million pounds a year from Westminster alone Because we have most of the hotels-

Simon Gartshore: Yeah

Cllr Paul Swaddle : um, and most of the visitors. Um, and I think then we would see, some contribution from the visitor economy to Westminster Council.

Simon Gartshore: Uh, and obviously, similarly, as I touched on before around the importance of conversations with, with national government and both the so-called fairer funding review and the high value council tax surcharge, or to give it its more snappy name, mansion tax, expected to realize about two-- two hundred and seventy million, I think it is, primarily from four London boroughs.

[00:26:00] How's that dialogue progressing with national government and MHCLG?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Well, let, let's be very clear. These are not mansions.

Simon Gartshore: Mm-hmm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : The level that they're now talking about at one point five million, in this area across Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea, parts of Wandsworth, we're talking about two-bedroom flats.

These are not mansions. But also, this is more and more being piled on to Central London and the south to benefit the rest of the country as if this is an unlimited cash cow. Well, There's only so much that can be taken, um, before people up and move, and we've seen that at the top end, where people have left the country to avoid taxation.

Well, what are we trying to do? Drive everybody out of Central London? Because literally you can go and sell up that place in Central London and buy a mansion somewhere else, you know? Yeah. Um, and avoid the mansion tax by having a mansion, but end up being taxed on it in a flat in London. Um, [00:27:00] so- Again, first of all, they've got to stop calling it a council tax, 'cause the only people who don't see any of that money are the council.

We will have to collect it, um, and that will... But then the government will take it away. You're

Simon Gartshore: just the administrator.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : We're just the administrator. Um, there are better ways to alleviate this problem. And I think they need to look at them again, and we're r- we are writing to government at the moment around that, making suggestions.

And in fact, it's Scotland that has a model that is- Mm ... in place and would be much easier and cheaper to implement. So the r- the... It's not like we're not coming forward with ideas. but we are campaigning with other Central London, uh, boroughs because it does disproportionately hit us. And it's not just conservative boroughs.

You know, y- look at Richmond, uh, we're working with them as well. That's a Lib Dem administration. And so we will work cross-party, to make sure that the voice for residents is heard. Because just because somebody owns that property does not mean they can afford to pay many [00:28:00] thousands of pounds extra a year in tax, on top of what the government's already doing to Westminster, which is forcing council tax up.

Yeah. So I, I think it's a very short-sighted view, um, perhaps a Manchester view, um, that's coming.

Simon Gartshore: Indeed. And, um, thank you obviously for your time. But sort of lastly, a, a slight... if I may, a sort of slightly more personal question. Obviously, being a leader of a local authority, particularly one like Westminster, can be all-consuming.

Um, but equally, being an elected member of the local authority isn't supposed to be a full-time job. So how are you managing it all?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : So, um, look, I am basically full-time at the council. I also, run a software development company. Yeah. Uh, I'm full on there as well, but part-time. Um, and I balance that by doing a lot of things at the evening and at weekends.

Um, that's always been the way for councillors. Uh, a lot of your meetings are in the evening. Um, so that's one of the ways that you can [00:29:00] squeeze in more than a full, a, more than a hundred percent into a week. Um, but also you have to manage, for your own sanity, what you do. Um, and so my big escape is cooking.

Simon Gartshore: Mm-hmm.

Cllr Paul Swaddle : So I, love, cooking, uh, and love cooking shows. Uh, my wife is, Well, she's Australian, half It- she's half Australian, half Italian. and she benefits greatly from that because I literally do all of the cooking at home. and that's my escape because when you're worrying about timings and ingredients, et cetera, you're not thinking about everything else.

Mm-hmm. So it's a moment to get out of it and just focus on what you're doing for a second.

Simon Gartshore: Any specialty dishes?

Cllr Paul Swaddle : Um, I, a wide range. I love Indian food- Yeah ... and I can... I've cooked Indian food. In fact, during COVID, we did a thing where, uh, every week we draw, drew a country out of the hat, and I had to cook that country's dishes the following Saturday.

Um, and so I did that for a number of weeks through COVID. I had an Italian night, Spanish, Indian, Georgian, [00:30:00] Peruvian, Japanese, and a number of others. So it was starting to test my, uh- ... uh, capabilities But it also meant I went and found things out that I didn't know before. And again, it was a great way in COVID to, uh, motivate yourself to get up and do stuff and, yeah, stay engaged- Yeah

and thinking about more fun stuff.

Simon Gartshore: Indeed. And so fun stuff indeed, and obviously hugely exciting times ahead. So thank you, Paul, for your time, your openness, and, best of luck, uh, for the future of Westminster and the, and the coming months and years ahead. Thank you.