This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather

than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and

information to anyone affected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast

Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondary breast cancer. Today we

are speaking to Sonia Gale, a trustee for Breast Cancer Now with personal experience of a breast

cancer diagnosis in the workplace. Sonia worked in financial services for more than 30 years at

HSBC, Barclays and Ernst & Young. She's a commissioner for the Sheffield Race Equality

Commission and she's also involved with Women on Boards UK as a mentor and presenter supporting

diverse talent on boards. And she's here to tell us about when she was diagnosed with breast cancer

and how companies can better support an employee with cancer. Sonia, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me. It's great to have you here. Could you start by telling us when and how you

were diagnosed with breast cancer, please? Oh my goodness. So we're probably going back to 2004,

which was when I was officially diagnosed, but obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing. And I

now, well, I recognised during my treatment that I'd had the cancer for probably several years, but

didn't realise. I was in Sweden actually with a friend who was filming and I tanked along. We were

in Stockholm and we hadn't gone very far from the hotel when I suddenly realised my legs were no

longer working. I was wonderful, I say can I take another step without falling over? I've never had

a sensation like it. And I remember standing there feeling a bit of my friend looking at me saying,

what are you doing? And I said, I felt rather embarrassed. I said, I can't feel my legs. She

said, don't be silly. I said, no, seriously, I cannot feel my legs. And the concierge came,

helped me back to the hotel and they took me to the hospital, took some bloods and didn't say

anything. They just, as they said, it may have been cramp, a trap nerve. And the doctor said, when you

get back to the UK, you need to see your GP. And oddly enough, I had been trying to see the GP, but my job

was so demanding. It was finding time. I was working 60, 70 hours a week. Financial services is

very demanding. I was a senior director. And you put it down to overwork, I need to slow down. But

every now and again, I would get bouts of extreme tiredness. You just punch through it. And in fact,

I had managed to see the doctor about a year before. We just prescribed iron tablets, which I took

diligently. But on that day, there have no use to me. And when I did return, I managed to see my GP, who

was a wonderful lady, Dr. Jean Parke, who's now retired. And I can honestly say she saved my life.

She listened. I didn't know I had breast cancer. I wasn't sure what was wrong. I just felt odd. I

didn't have my usual energy levels. And I felt tired at the most odd times. And she noticed me

scratching my breast and said, Oh, what's that? And because I sometimes used to get eczema, I just

said, Oh, it's just a little rash. And I'd never known anybody in the family who'd had breast

cancer. So I had no prior experience or knowledge. And she said, Oh, let me have a look. And she said,

I'd like you to see someone. So I saw her on the Wednesday. I then had a letter, which was hand

delivers, which arrived on the Saturday from an appointment at Lewisham Hospital in London on the

Monday. When I arrived, I didn't realize I thought, why am I in the breast clinic? I normally

go and see a dermatologist. So even then, I had no idea it was cancer was the last thing on my mind. And

I popped in and saw him. And I was chatting away and showing him my breast. And there was an African

nurse who was there in the room. And she was smiling, not saying anything. And I, you know,

obviously, now I realized she's thinking, Oh, wait for it. The penny will drop. She's clearly an

intelligent woman. Just give it time. And he was talking when he said, Hmm, I don't like the look of

this, I'm going to do a needle biopsy. And then we'll get you booked in. And I said, what for a skin

rush? And he stared at me and he said, miscalculated. He said, I really do believe that

this is breast cancer. And I said to him, don't be silly. I said, no one in my family gets breast

cancer. I said, then black women don't get breast. I actually said that. Anyway, Wednesday, within

48 hours, I was at Guy's and St Thomas' Hospital, running around getting various scans. And it was

stage, it was quite advanced. It was in my lymph nodes. They could see hotspots on the back of my

lung, and at various other places. And they said, there's no time to waste. We need to operate. So you

can imagine this is less than a week. And it was all a whirlwind. I remember speaking to my partner

thinking, I wonder if they've made a mistake. I said, how can I have cancer? Now I'm walking

around. I haven't lost any weight. And I felt okay other than this tiredness. And they did operate

and it was cancer. And then of course, it's not just removing your lump, but that's when your

treatment really starts. So what treatment did you have? So they did a local wider excision. So

they were able to preserve all my bits. They were just a little bit smaller, which aesthetically

was quite nice. So there's all, you know, so there was a bonus. And then I had to take Tamoxifen. And of

course, because my background was policy, I did a lot of research. I sat down with the oncologists.

We talked through the different treatment options. And they offered me, they knew what they

said was an innovative form of chemotherapy, but I decided to go with a tried and tested chemo. Even

today, the smell of my hair makes me feel slightly odd. So I tried to avoid going back to guys anywhere

near where they're doing the treatment because the smell is very triggering. But he did save my

life. I lost all my hair. But my hairdresser, we had a shaving session. So, you know, it was all about

getting prepared. And my partner, he shaved his head as well, not that you had much to begin with,

but we had a head shaving session with a little sip of champagne and just tried to stay positive. And

oddly enough, I think, although it was a shock, I realized when I was in the hospital that actually I

was one of the lucky ones, one that they'd found it, that my GP had taken the time to listen and just look

at my body holistically. No one goes into the doctor and says, Doctor, I think I have cancer. I

mean, maybe they do today, but back then I didn't know what was wrong. And she was skilled at

listening, looking at all the hidden cues. You say one thing, but your body says something else. And

because she acted so promptly, she picked up the phone she didn't draft a letter, she knew the

doctor, Lewis said, I really need you to see my lady. And remember, this was on the NHS. So, you

know, I will always be a fan and an advocate for the NHS because on that occasion, although I'd never

had cause to use it, when I needed it the most, it came to my rescue. I think also I benefited from my

postcode because where I lived, we came within the guise and said Thomas's hospital catchment area.

And that's one of the best oncology centres in Europe. So I had fantastic care. But I think also

because I was able to read technical data, I understood my treatment, and I could make an

informed decision. So I wasn't, I wasn't passive. Yeah, I did ask them and and I think once they

realise that you've done your homework, there is a different relationship between yourself and

your oncologist, you can actually, I'm not an equal and I'm not a specialist. But I think he was

impressed that I took the time to read about the different forms of treatment. So I was happy to

take my pink bullet to Moxifen, which I took diligently for just over five years. And I also had

to have Zolodex injections, which was my suggestion because my I had estrogen receptor

positive. So I said, well, that's good, but it's not the other one, because if it's my hormones

raging out of control, then that's what's treating the cancer. So let's shut them down. So I

had to have tummy injections, which were quite uncomfortable with the Zolodex, but it did shut

down my ovaries. And then of course, there's the other stuff like hot flushers. And actually the

wonderful thing that I find in 2023 now is people are taking the menopause very seriously. 2024

even. Yeah, and 24. Yes. And with us back then, it was something you just had to put up with. But of

course, when you're having chemical treatments and breast cancer, they don't tell you about the

fact that it shows you into an early menopause. And the hot flushers were just ferocious. Yeah, well,

there's so many things I want to pick up on from what you've just said, and so many of it, so much of it

that I relate to, including the Zolodex injections and the Tamaxophen and the wide local

excision and so much more. But you mentioned that you were one of the lucky ones, and we are now 20

years on from that diagnosis. So I just want to ask how you're doing now health wise. I'm healthy. I

feel I, you know, I walk, I mean, I moved as born in Yorkshire and I returned. You know, one things

with COVID, and we lost some wonderful people and loved ones. But it did reconnect me to my place of

birth. And where I live in Sheffield is one of the greenest cities. And you're right on the doorstep

of the Peak District. So I do a lot of walking. And I can still travel to London and do things remotely.

So, you know, so that was one of the things I think we COVID, it did make people think about work, life,

violence. Oh, that's wonderful. I'm from Huddersfield, and I grew up 15 minutes from the

Peak District as well. So more, more, more parallels. Yeah, I'm glad you're in the

countryside now. But no sign of breast cancer. And you know, as far as you, you're aware you've put

that behind you. Yes, I mean, it took a few years. I would say, I mean, it's 20 years now. If you told me

then, you and I would be here today, I would never have believed it. Yeah, in my head, I kind of

reconciled that I might have 10 years, if unfortunate. But actually, I was one of that small

percentage, 15%, who really responded well to the treatment. I think also maybe changing my

lifestyle as well. So, drinking less, eating healthily, doing a little bit more exercise,

trying to stay positive. And so I get my, my regular checkups. And they are very robust. And touch

wood, it's always been very good. No signs of any return. And you spend probably the first couple of

years waiting every, you know, you're listening to your body at night. And every little rumble and

gurgle and twitch and pain you think, has it come back? But then there comes a point at which you

think I can't keep waiting, you just have to get on and live your life. And I think it's that

acceptance that actually the end, if you want to call it the end, is something that happens to all of

us. And the only thing you can try and influence is the manner of how you go and you make sure that

you've done all the things that you want to do and have no regrets. Or you're living in fear. And

somebody made the thing that actually cancer can give you time to put your affairs in order. It's one

of the, I wouldn't say that there's an upside to that, but actually my father died from a heart

attack. And it was very sudden. One day was with us. And then the next day, he'd gone. And I remember

the, you know, the devastation and how it affected my mother, because they'd been together for such a

long time. And she'd noticed something wasn't right, being no men and men and, oh, it's nothing.

And at least with my cancer, I was able to talk to friends. I was able to reconcile with with with

other friends and family members who I hadn't seen for many years. And you kind of put your affairs in

order. And it did enable me to change my mindset. And maybe I'm a better person for it, but it

shouldn't have taken cancer. To reach that epiphany. But but I didn't reach it. And I'm

delighted to still be here. Well, I'm delighted you're still here as well. And it's so good,

especially on this podcast to hear these positive stories, you know, someone who has survived and

thrived for 20 years. It's just it's just fantastic to hear. There was something that you

said just before, which was 20 years ago, you thought black women don't get breast cancer. I

wanted to ask, why do you think that you didn't think that you could get breast cancer? I think it

was because when you saw all of the images, when they talked about breast cancer, it was always

somebody who looked like she was from the home counties or the Women's Institute. So not even

from color, but almost seemed like a very middle class type of disease. And that's because all the

other women who were getting it were just not visible. So of course, I never saw anybody who

looked like me who had cancer. And of course, within the community, even those who did have it

kept it very quiet, even from close family. And it was only after I had been diagnosed and gone

through my treatment. And then I started talking to other family members that I then realized that

in fact, there had been incidents of breast cancer in our extended family, but it was just never

discussed. I'm really interested to ask how much you think that has changed in the last 20 years. Do

you see more visibility now for people of color in terms of cancer diagnosis and treatment? Oh,

absolutely. It's changed and improved so much more. And I think obviously, the work of breast

cancer now, but certainly, I think we've moved beyond that image that breast cancer is the

something that somehow blights the white middle classes. And actually, it's a scourge can be

impacted. And if you look at the fact that so many people are being diagnosed, you would always say

that it's an epidemic. And actually, what's changed is that more people like me are living and

moving beyond breast cancer, whereas previously, you get it and then you would die. And

that would probably because of late diagnosis. But what's changed is that people are being

diagnosed a lot earlier. And also, I think because people are seeing it on the internet, you have

various advocates, there are a lot of younger women who are getting breast cancer and being very

vocal about their experience and really encouraging people to check their breasts to be an

advocate for their own well-being, to be pushing in demand to see their doctor and to request a

referral, which is their right. And just making sure that people are empowered and removing that

stigma. Breast cancer isn't something, it's not calmer, it's not payback for something you did in a

previous life. It's not something that you've eaten. It's not a sign of demonic possession or

that you're somehow not worthy in the eyes of the Almighty. It could be down to just genes. It could

be because of your lifestyle. It could be, as I said, genes or family history. There are so many

things, but what I try and do is to say to people, it's not something to be ashamed of. Anybody can

get breast cancer, even men. And it's no respect of age or colour or your sexuality. And the thing is,

once you think you have it, get it diagnosed, what you need is a piece of mind. Is it cancer? Is it not

cancer? And if it is cancer, what kind of cancer do you have? And what are the best treatments for that

kind of cancer? And if you don't know, then come to Breast Cancer now, or there are so many wonderful

cancer charities out there who can help give you the facts and insights and support to help you get

through it and move beyond it. And in the first instance, if you're in the UK, go to your GP

because, as we both know, you can have incredible experiences on the NHS and with your GP. It's just a

case of reporting whatever symptoms you've got. And thank you also for saying that it's nobody's

fault that we get cancer because I think that a lot of listeners, including me, have experienced

that thing of, was it something that I did? Is this karma? Or is it something that I've eaten? Or is it

the fact that I've drunk alcohol or I've smoked or I've partied, you know, in my 20s or something? So,

yeah, that's a really great message to have shared with us. Now, I know you have some stories about

your experience with cancer in the workplace. Could you start by telling us where you were

working at the time and how your employer reacted and how, in fact, you broke the news if you did break

the news to them? Well, I was in a very interesting position. I can laugh about it now, but I was

working for a large bank just before my diagnosis. I had resigned from the bank to stay on with a

regulator as a contractor. When I told the regulator, I think there was shock, but I was

fortunate that the person that I reported to, she was very supportive. And the work that I'd done for

them, she understood the financial impact on me. But I did feel not obligated, but, you know, I felt

that I owned them a duty of care to return and get on doing the work. And they did make all of the

reasonable accommodations to make me feel comfortable. I could, we didn't really do so much

remote working back then, but I was allowed to do all my research from home and only come into the

office two days a week. So even during my chemo, I was still working. And it did slow me down

mentally. You know, my brain, which I almost took for granted, which would fire suddenly, it was

taking just, I noticed it. But I think deep down, I thought to do the job that I'm doing, the skill sets

that I was being paid for, I thought, can I continue to work at that level? And so even though I got

through it, I realized that I was not going to be the same and I would need to reevaluate my lifestyle.

And also the type of work that I was doing and move away from that high pressure, high performance,

full on, where you're working all hours, and you're out and about, I was fortunate that I was

working in a very supportive environment. But then I talked to other people who had terrible

problems, they were being made redundant, even though their employer knew that they might be

unwell. And I wouldn't say it's something peculiar to financial services, but I would say in

the private sector, there's almost this unwritten rule, yes, you get paid a lot of money,

but you only get it as long as you're fit and healthy. And the minute there's sign of weakness,

then both parties know that's the end of it. And there's usually a party in other ways. And then

what you try and do is negotiate a nice settlement, which I was able to do. So financially, yes, I had to

make some sacrifices and change my lifestyle. But the impact on me was much less than it would have

been for other people, some of whom were literally on the poverty line, and having to sign on, I never

got to that stage. But it did feel uncomfortable at times. And had I not been working, it would have

been tricky. Did you experience at work any insensitive or discriminatory comments when you

were going through your treatment, or in terms of your diagnosis? There would be, I think the people

who didn't realise that I had it. So it was kept reasonably confidential. I was able to get a wig.

So most people didn't realise that I was even sick. I never lost any weight. Even when I was going

through the chemo, they talk about the chemo glow. So people kept saying to me, have you been on

holiday? And you're having to make excuses. So people would make comments. I guess there's the

stereotype that people think what cancer is, that you're like a walking skeleton and that you can

tell. But actually, people respond differently. And you can see people who look very healthy. And

then a few weeks later, they're gone and you think they had cancer. You said, really? Where did that

come from? So people would make comments incentively not realising that I had cancer and I

was going through treatment. And I wouldn't say anything to not, you know, because it wasn't said

in malice. And I thought maybe I would have said or made those assumptions before I was stricken

myself. So I would almost say I was a silent observer watching people making some of the

comments that probably I made when I was ignorant and didn't know any better. And then you, and I

remember thinking, you know, once I finish, I need to retire early so I can actually give something

back. Because in my darkest days when I really thought the prognosis looks really bleak, I spoke

to a wonderful woman who just provided the sounding board and just explained to me, listen,

there are women who've had similar diagnosis to you and they've got cheroid. And she was very

matter of fact, a lovely Geordie lady. And she just gave me the kick up the bum that I needed to stop

wallowing self pity. And as bad as you think you've got it, there are others who are suffering far

worse. She said, you've got money in the bank. She said, you don't have to worry about paying your

mortgage. You have your family around you. And your employer is supporting you. And you seem to

have really good treatment on the NHS. And I thought, actually, for, you know, and yes, I am a

black woman. But I think because I was in London, I had the right support network. I was able to take

advantage and benefit from the best of the NHS. It seems you were fortunate on many counts. Is that

that early retirement that you took, is that what led you to become a trustee for Breast Cancer Now?

Yes, yes, it was, I'd made the decision that if I got to 55 then I would quit and take advantage of my the

retirement benefits and I applied to Breast Cancer Care thinking that I'd be a volunteer. And

actually talk to women who look like me, and other women, particularly those who may be in associate

demographics where they don't have access to all the amenities, and to give that voice of hope and

inspiration and share my experiences. And when I spoke to Breast Cancer Care, because my

background in policy, risk and governance, they said, well, actually, could you join us as a

trustee? And I remember thinking, oh, am I jumping out of the frying pan into the fire having just

resigned from financial services? But I've loved it. And I continue to enjoy it. And being part of the

board, being engaged in the strategy and the direction. And one of the things we talked about at

Breast Cancer Care, and I said, it's wonderful that we focus on helping women and men to think of

life after cancer, and about living, but living well. I said, but wouldn't it be great if we could

also tackle the research and find a cure, or some form of early diagnosis that can give people that

reassurance and make sure people are getting the right treatment that's tailored for them, rather

than the sort of cheek dip approach that I went through. And so, you know, within two years, we

were having, you know, the merger discussions with now, and we are now Breast Cancer now. And

we're having a real positive impact and influence on how Breast Cancer is being tackled here in the

UK. I know you do some work separately for diversity on boards around the UK. Do you also do

diversity work within Breast Cancer now, or do you help support the strategy in terms of, you know,

making Breast Cancer more visible for people of colour? Yes. So, of course, after the George Floyd

incident where I think there was this light bulb moment for most of the world, for somebody like me,

I'd always been aware that actually what the George Floyd incident meant was actually it

brought our white allies felt that they could stand up and make their voices heard as well. And

it's been wonderful to see that shift in understanding and the recognition of

inequalities. And when we talk about inequalities, it's interesting when I think

about my own experience with cancer, and also what we saw more recently with COVID and people, sort of

when COVID hit looking and thinking, why so many black and brown NHS people getting hit by COVID?

But of course, you know, COVID isn't racist, and neither is Breast Cancer. These are things of

opportunity, and the more opportunities they get to access you, the greater your chances of

actually either getting COVID or indeed being impacted by cancer. And so of course, things like

lifestyle, accessing a GP, assuming that there is a GP practice within your immediate locality. The

type of work that you do if you're gig economy or shift worker, again, that will all limit your

ability to get that GP appointment. The experience I had with my GP, I don't think those

with the way the NHS has gone now and the increasing demand on its services. It does worry me that

people may have breast cancer, but it's not being diagnosed because they cannot get into to see

their GP because you have to be referred. I think as well, one of the things that I was never aware of as a

white skinned patient is that people of colour also experience difficulties in terms of access

to wigs that are suitable for them, lymphoedema sleeves, all sorts of things that, you know, I just

would never have realised was lacking for people of colour. Is that something that you experienced

as well? Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, I remember laughing when I had my chemo and they showed me the

wigs they had available and the women looked at me and we looked at the wigs. There were sort of

different shades of blonde, ash blonde. I think there's a red one and one that was sort of jet black,

which would have been fine had I been sort of Asian, but not really suitable for me. But again, I'd

already realised that. And so my hairdresser actually did a tailored custom wig for me, which

matched my hairstyle. And she cut my hair had a pixie cut. And so we did the wig in the same cut. And

then we shaved all my hair off. So most people didn't even realise that I had lost my hair,

because I had a tailored wig. And then with the lymphoedema, I was able to get private lymphatic

drainage, which I had paid for privately through my private medical insurance. So I never had the

dreaded lymphoedema. And I didn't have to wear the sleeves. But again, not everybody has access to

that. And yeah, and you see that in so many walks of life, where you can't get things that are tailored

to match the colour of your skin, and nobody wants to walk around advertising the fact that, oh, look

at me, I have cancer. But then again, you see some of the younger girls, and they're getting wonderful

tattoos done on their head. And they're happy to be proud and show their shaved heads. And that's

wonderful. If there's anyone, any people of colour listening to this podcast today who are

struggling with access to wigs or to lymphoedema sleeves, which we should explain lymphoedema is a

very painful arm condition that some people experience after breast cancer surgery. Is there

any direction you could point those women in to help find the services that they need? Yeah, come

to breast cancer now. We have a wealth of information. And we also have our app, Becca, as

well, which provides some useful hints and tints. And in fact, there's probably more information

available now than there would have been back in 2004 or 2005. The internet is a washed YouTube.

I've seen some wonderful adverts where people are making their own lymphoedema sleeves and just

ordering material from a very large online retailer, who I won't name. But there's so many, in

fact, there's so much that you can get. And there's some wonderful groups which you can join, which

are focused very much on different groups, whether that's LGBTQ plus, or whether that's by

your ethnicity or by your religion, because it's not just black women, but also South Asian women,

whether you're Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist. There are all kinds of different support networks out

there. And you can find some that are UK wide or specific to your town or city. But certainly

there's a lot of information on the breast cancer now website, where we can signpost people to where

they can get support. And that support is free. You don't need to pay for it. And also, as part of your

diagnosis and treatment, if you are going through treatment, the breast cancer care nurses have a

wealth of information and are very supportive. But of course, you need to get referred in the first

place. So for me, the real challenge is around early diagnosis, because if you don't know that

you're sick, every day that ticks by, that malignant growth is sitting inside you. It's like

a ticking time bomb. The quicker they can get to it, the better the outcome. And even if they don't get

to it soon, well, hopefully I'm an example that there is still hope. And even if it gets into your

lymph nodes, if it's treated, and if you respond well, and the treatments that we have now, every

year, there's something new coming out. And of course, with the growth of AI, where we're seeing

breast cancer treatment, which is tailored to your physiology, which is which is fantastic.

Then again, that's just increasing your chances of a successful outcome. Yeah, well, we'll put a

bunch of those links that you mentioned in the show notes of this episode for anyone who wants to look

for resources and advice. I'd just like to ask you about AI, artificial intelligence, because I

don't know much about what's being done with AI and breast cancer treatments. And I don't know if it's

relevant in diagnosis as well. Is that something you can tell us more about? Well, I think the one

area where AI is being tested is obviously radiography and doing the scans, because

obviously when you have your scan, then you're reliant on a skilled radiographer to review that

scan, and being able to look at the scans and say, is that cancer? And and now you've got AI systems that

can just race through ultra fast and getting to a percentage, which is approaching that of a

skilled radiographer. So the challenge you have in all cancer diagnosis, not just breast cancer,

is that early diagnosis. And of course, it takes many years to train a radiographer. And a lot of the

great radiographers that we had have either retired or reaching retirement, and we just can't

replace all of them. So AI, this is an area where AI can be a real benefit, because it can go through

more scans more quickly. And the quicker it can do that, and with great accuracy, the better you as a

patient can then get that reassurance. So rather than waiting, maybe a week or two weeks or maybe

longer, you might get confirmation within 48 hours. Brilliant. It sounds fantastic. And it

sounds like something that could ease the strain on the NHS as well. Although of course, we still do

need all of those oncologists and nurses and radiographers to deliver the results and to talk

to the patients. And I very much hope AI never replaces our doctors and nurses entirely, but

it's great that it's becoming a support in some ways to the services that we need. Just moving back

to breast cancer and diagnosis in the workplace. You were fortunate that you had a good experience

in the workplace when you were diagnosed with breast cancer. Obviously, lots of people don't

have such a great experience. Is there anything you would say to, first of all, to employees who

have a cancer diagnosis and want to approach their workplace about what things that they might need?

I think I would say it's about be, you know, prepare yourself and be ready to be your own advocate.

Although my experience with my employer wasn't as bad, that was more through my own efforts rather

than my employer. And I would say to any employee, try not to, and it's not always easy, but you never

want to be wholly reliant on your employer. It's your health, it's your life. You are the best

person to manage that. And so it's about making sure you have the right resources around you. And

some of those will be the employer. So look at the benefits package. What support do you get? Is

there a well-being health check? A lot of organisations offer it. It might be free. So make

use of it. And also, you know, find out from other employees, you know, whether it's a new job that

you're going for. A lot of people just look at the salary, but I always say, look at the overall

benefits package. You know, it's not just about what they're paying you, but actually if you get

sick, how many weeks sick leave do you get full pay on? And you'll be amazed. Some employees are very

generous, others less so. So it's about being informed. And looking beyond just the numbers.

And also looking at, you know, if people do get cancer, have a look at the board members, have a

look at their website, read their annual report. You know, what do they say about supporting cancer

charities? Or, you know, do they have employee well-being? What provisions do they make if you

get sick? You know, can you work from home? Can you get additional support? And when will that

support be provided? And again, I think good employers are becoming, you know, very focused on

well-being. And some employers do it very, very well. They may not always advertise it. And some of

this stuff is there. And I talk to staff and say, well, you do realise your firm offers this, they

say, do they? And they haven't looked and you go, so it's there on the employee benefits website. You

have to, you know, take advantage of it. You mentioned at the beginning, when you were talking

about your diagnosis, you were working 60 to 70 hour weeks in financial services, very high

stress, very long hours type of industry. I had a fairly similar experience where in my 20s,

throughout my 20s, I was also working in a sort of financial services role, similar working

incredibly long hours, incredibly high stress. And my cancer diagnosis came at the end of that six

year period of stress where I just moved to a new job. But I remember in the years leading up to my

cancer diagnosis, which was when I was 29, I had had other kind of stress related illnesses like

shingles and acne and just, you know, things that were much more minor. But where I would go to the GP

and they would say, are you in a high, you know, the job that you have, is it very, very demanding and

intense? And can you take some time off? And they would always say things like, can you improve your

work-life balance? And can you take some time off? And of course, when you're in one of those jobs, or,

you know, you're in a similarly demanding situation where perhaps you've got young

children, and you're also working two jobs and you're working shifts or yourself employed, it's

always incredibly difficult to take that time off that the GP recommends, because you can't

financially, you can't lifestyle wise, you just can't. So is there anything that you would

recommend to someone who is perhaps in a similar position and hasn't got a breast cancer

diagnosis, but is feeling like if they carry on at the pace that they're at, then they will be, you

know, diagnosed with some kind of serious illness at some point down the line? You know, that's a

great question. And one of the things I say when I'm talking to potential board candidates, I always

say to them, no one ever got to retirement wishing, or if only I'd worked harder. And it usually gets a

laugh. But the point I'm making is, the things that are really important is your health, friends, and

family, and well-being. And so when we talk about making adjustments to our lifestyle, and I use my

own example, I was working so many hours, I was on a good salary, but I didn't even have time to go

shopping. So I had a very healthy bank balance. But actually, could I have managed on half of that

money? Probably. And I understand it's a bit like being on that treadmill. And it's very difficult

to step off. So actually working full pelt can mask a lot of underlying issues. And I would always say

to people, you cannot function well if you don't have your health, if you're not at your maximum

stage of well-being. And so it's about giving yourself a chance. And it's about looking at your

lifestyle and saying, okay, do I need to work harder? Or actually, do I need to work smarter? And

if your employer can't support you in that, then find another employer. If you're skilled, if you

have a special talent, one employer may not treat you or may not give you the flexibility, whether a

competitor might. And you may have to take maybe a 5% cut, or you may even get a pay rise. And it's a win

and win. And although it's said that it took COVID to lift the scales, we do at least now have a

recognition around hybrid working. And I think that gives people more opportunities to pace

themselves. You don't need to be running full pelt 24 hours a day. The majority of companies and

leaders that I speak to, a common thread across all of that is they refer to their staff, their people,

their employees, whatever term they use, as their most valued asset. And I saw, well, that's

interesting. Because if you value that asset so much, why would you treat it in this manner? If you

have something that you love and which is precious, then you protect it. And that means not

just saying the words, but actually providing that infrastructure. So things like well-being,

how do you respect that? Treat your staff well, because by and large, you will see that payback in

terms of productivity. But when you look at an organization where there's incidences of sick

leave, all they're being taken to tribunals, all there's lots of complaints. These are all the

warning signs that notwithstanding, we value our staff that you have a problem and you can't ignore

it. And the solutions are quite simple and don't necessarily require money. And it's about having

people like you in those companies who are actually standing up and saying these things,

because everything that you've just said really resonates with me. I've heard time and time again

companies talking about well-being, just as a buzzword, but they don't necessarily mean it and

they don't show that they value those employees as much as they say that they're going to value them.

So yeah, I mean, actually respecting people's holidays, actually respecting people's

weekends, respecting people's downtime, people's lunch hour, not many people even take a

proper lunch hour, because we're just so on. So I would say I recommend sitting down, turning your

phone off, reading a book, reading some pamphlets. Breast Cancer Now has so many

wonderful resources that are on paper that you don't have to read online, even though there's

everything you could possibly want online as well. And you have to be on your some kind of device

to be listening to this podcast. So I know how hard it is myself to switch off. But you've raised some

absolutely wonderful points. So thank you for that. I would like to ask you the question that we

ask all our guests on the Breast Cancer Now podcast, which is if you could see one change in

diagnosis and treatment of breast cancer in the coming years, what would it be? Oh, we've seen so

many advances. And you obviously want that to continue. I think AI, it can be a wonderful tool.

It's not a replacement for a doctor. But it can be a great tool for early diagnosis. I think the Holy

Grail is a simple blood test that can detect cancer in a meaningful way. And then aligning that to a

tailored treatment, which is suitable for you and you alone. And that treatment is designed to

maximise the best outcomes for you. And I think if we can get to that, then I would say we've probably

achieved as a as a charity, what we set out to achieve. Which is for everyone to be diagnosed

early. And when they are diagnosed to live and live well. Yeah, that would be absolutely fantastic.

And it's something that we're seeing across different areas as well. I know that there are also

ways that you can tailor your diet now according to your own particular physiology and everything

else. So really exciting and interesting things coming out with AI and with personalised kind of

health services. Tonja, is there anything else that you would like to share with us today with

regards to your own breast cancer experience, your work with diversity, your work on boards and

your work with cancer in the workplace? Try not to despair. There is always hope. There are some

wonderful people out there who can help you, who can listen. And this is just not, this is not you.

This is something that affects all of us. And you may not have cancer yourself. You may be

supporting someone who has cancer. You know, the early stage when I was diagnosed, I think there's

something almost quite selfish, it's your cancer. But I didn't realise at the time the impact

that it had on my siblings and on my friends who didn't know what was happening. They felt they

couldn't help. And I was very self sufficient and kind of kept it to myself. And actually what it made

me do was, was it made me more open and not be afraid to ask for help, not be too proud. Now I always was

very proud of my, the fact that I was self sufficient and very self reliant. But actually

this was a time when I could ask for help and people wanted me to ask because they were desperate to

give me the help. So it did make me more respectful, more grateful and unable to show that gratitude.

You know, the best way to get through it is to get through it with friends and family. And if you've

got that network, it really does help. You know, don't do it on your own. Yeah, I think that's the

best advice, Sonja. And it's so wonderful to see you here thriving, 20 years on. So Sonja, thank you

so much. Yes, touch wood. Thank you so much for joining us on the Breast Cancer Now podcast. My

pleasure. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed this episode of the Breast Cancer Now podcast, make

sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get podcasts. Please also leave us a

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