This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather

than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and

information to anyone affected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast

Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondary breast cancer. Today on

the podcast we are talking to Fran Whitfield, a cancer exercise and rehab specialist with an

extraordinary story. Fran was diagnosed with secondary breast cancer when she was just 25 years

old. She was told she had just two years to live. Nearly four years later, Fran is 29 years old and

has responded incredibly well to her treatment. She's now working to help other people with cancer

to exercise their way to better health and to become stronger both physically and mentally.

Some of you may have heard of Fran before because she featured on the Breast Cancer Now podcast in

2021. I was so struck by her incredible strength which helped me through my own secondary

diagnosis in 2022. Fran and I met at one of the brilliant get-togethers she does for young women

with breast cancer at Future Dreams House, the Breast Cancer Support Centre in London. She

inspired me to take up weightlifting after my own major surgery last year and that has been a real

game changer for me. Fran, thank you so much for joining us on the Breast Cancer Now podcast. Thank

you very much for having me. It's really great to have you here. Thank you. So could you start by

telling the listeners about your diagnosis and the treatment you've had? Yeah, of course. So I

actually originally found my lump, strangely about five years to the day, so like five years to

this month. I found my lump when I was 24 and then I went to the GP as an emergency appointment. She

confirmed that the lump was there and then sent me to the the doctor that I saw said to me that because

of my age it was most likely going to be a hormonal lump that I didn't need a scan and then sent me on my

way with no further information anything like that. So for 18 months I didn't realise that the the

lump itself how large it was growing because it was growing inwards until July 2020 when a dimple

appeared and I knew that that wasn't a good sign because obviously I'd read information before in

my blind panic the night before the GP appointment. So instantly booked in to get

testing done and three days later after having a biopsy done they confirmed that it was breast

cancer and thankfully the doctor that I saw at the time as a kind of precaution just decided to do a

full body head to toe PET scan and it was pretty much my saving grace that he did because then they then

discovered that I had a brain tumor on that PET scan. So that was the kickstart of my treatment

within two weeks of finding that out then they then did the surgery to remove the tumor did all the

testing confirmed that it was the same genetics of the breast so that instantly they made me stage

four. So that was in the August 2020 and then I recovered from the surgery about four weeks and

then I started chemo so I had six months of chemo from the September 2020 through to March 2021 and

then after the chemo then they did the radiotherapy to my skull just to make sure that it

wouldn't come back at a 50 to 50 chance essentially of the tumor coming back if I didn't have it. So I had

the radiotherapy, cyber knife radiotherapy which is a great new technique that they've got now

and had that done and then I've been on medication ever since so I've been on a bemoscyclybe I did have

Zolodex but I've had to stop that now due to some side effects that I was getting and then Tamoxifen

as well. So I've been on that since May 2021 yeah I got my all clear in the September 2021 so actually

since doing the podcast here last time yeah I got the all clear and I've been NED since then. NED is no

evidence of disease. Yeah wow so I've had no evidence of disease since September 2021. That's

amazing. Yeah so I did originally go from the two year, yeah as you mentioned the two year prognosis

but I quickly moved hospitals after I got that diagnosis was not going to have someone tell me

that I had two years to live and put me on palliative care and then I then moved to the Royal Marsden

which is where I am now and then yeah I've got the all clear and then I turned 30 this year so kind of went

from going I'm not gonna see my 30th birthday remember saying that to my mum the day that we found

out the news to yeah fingers crossed that's good I get my 30th birthday this year. And I met you on your

28th birthday. Do you remember you saying then like I was not meant to see this day? No. And you know

now you're turning 30 this year so it's absolutely incredible but just going back to that being told

that you only had two years to live how did that feel and how did you deal with that mentally? I think at

first I was inevitably you know you're numb you're shocked didn't really know how to respond to

someone telling me that I only was going to potentially see my 27th birthday and nothing more

but very quickly I then felt a lot of anger towards that situation and not so much the situation

itself but anger towards someone telling me that that they were deciding that I had that long to live

whereas I wanted to try everything that I could to counteract that and I wanted to be put on treatment

and I wanted to try everything that I could that was out there and that's exactly what we did we moved

and then my new oncologist said to me I'm prepared to put you through everything if you're prepared

to take it and I was like hit me with it let's go and I'll do it which we did and now I'm incredibly

thankful that I did do that and I didn't just kind of succumb to the diagnosis that I had and I was my own

self-advocate and I pushed for it and I believed in myself as well which I think was a huge thing so even

in that moment of complete terror and fear I knew that I had the fire in my gut to try as much as I could I

wanted to see my 30th essentially that's all I wanted to do in that kind of in that moment I was like

everyone you know my friends are celebrated I've held a friends and they're celebrating their 30th

and I want to do that I want to have the party and yeah so it was a it was the anger that kind of got me

through it I would say I sort of internalised that in as fuel yeah fire to actually go through the

fight for it I mean I really hope that that will inspire people given a similarly bleak um

prognosis to fight against that and and obviously that's not always possible and sometimes it is

realistic but to be told that in the first instance by a doctor and to be not offered any hope yeah yeah

at any age is horrendous but at 25 years old like you know that's the beginning of your life and yeah um

yeah hopefully your story will give a lot of people a lot of hope yeah I hope so and I think a kind of you

know you can I'm trying to prove that you can be your own self-advocate I think a lot of people are quite

fearful of standing up and saying actually no I don't want to do that and I do want a second opinion

or a lot of people don't actually know that second opinions exist so I know that I've spoken to a lot of

women that have read my story that now have gone got second opinions or have said actually no I don't

want that or I you know I've heard of this other treatment plan can we investigate this and

they're actually have an input in terms of what their treatment is and you're well within your

right to do that and as you say yeah sometimes it's not possible but if you feel like it is possible or

you just want to explore it then 100% do that and have those discussions with your oncologist or

get those second opinions if you're not finding that you're gelling with the team that you have

because it's incredibly important that you have the backing of your oncology team behind you all

the way and that you feel comfortable when you trust them as well absolutely yeah and and all of

this was during the COVID pandemic and lockdowns of 2020 how was that did you have to go through it all

alone uh yeah yeah so my brain surgery was probably the worst one I literally just had to get dropped

off outside the hospital and then go in by myself wasn't allowed anyone to come in with me so it was

literally say you got buys at the door and then walk in I wasn't I didn't know if I was going to see my

family again then waking up on the other side obviously relief that I'm you know still alive but

then having to recover from that alone that was pretty dark I would say there was you know some dark

moments in that but that actually gave me kind of the the instigation to get out I wanted to leave I

wanted to get out of the hospital as soon as I could so I could see my family I knew that my mum would be

pacing up and down and beside herself she was so I knew that I needed to get out to see her and to see the

rest of my family and it did help I was supposed to be in hospital for about a week and then I left less

than 48 hours after my surgery don't recommend that to you know I'm not saying that everyone will

do that and I obviously I got the clear to go I didn't self discharge but it was just I wanted to be able to

prove to the physio that I could get up and I could stand and that you know he wanted me to walk up and

down the stairs so I was like well I walk up and down the stairs as soon as I can walk up the stairs and it

was because of the fact that I knew that my family was at home and that I wasn't able to see them that

kept me going with that and you know proving to them that I could shower myself and do laps around the

ward and then I knew that I had more treatment coming up as well and in my mindset I was kind of like

right get me home get me rehabbed I need to rehab because I've got chemo coming up soon so but yeah it

was it was tough I know that there's lots of people that were going through treatment during COVID as

well and experienced all the the funds of shielding and not being able to go and get yourself

a pint of milk if you want to and those sorts of things and relying on everyone else around you as

well and for me it was very frustrating I'm very independent person so having to rely on everyone

around me was very difficult I didn't really have a choice I don't know anything different you know I

only know being on my own I only know having chemo by myself I don't know what it's like to have a chemo

friend and you know as they have in the leaflets and things like that so kind of now I'm very much now

that I can have people come in with me I find it quite strange if my mom wants to come into the hospital

with me I'm like no it's fine stay at home I don't mind and has there been no ongoing effects after

your brain surgery and your brain tumor on your you know cognitively? Cognitively is kind of a

different if it's a difficult one I think like my memory is shocking but they don't know whether

that's because of the radiotherapy that I had or the fact of being in a medically induced menopause

and there's so many different things that it could be that make my memory as horrendous as it is so I do

have to write notes for everything if someone asks me to do something I have to write it down otherwise

it will literally go out my mind or if I open an email and I don't reply to it then it's like it's never

existed which is why I know that it was quite hard to get hold of me for this because I will read an email

and then if I don't reply to it then I will forget that it's even in my inbox I have had long-standing

effects of like nerve damage so I've got nerve damage on the right side of my face not visually

thankfully but by touch so if I like scratch the temple on the right side of my face it feels like

someone's putting needles in my eye and things like that so and it's lessened over time but it's at

the point now that it is how it will always be at the beginning it was unbearable to you know put

moisturizer on my face or to wash my face and things like that because as soon as I would touch the right

side of my face then I would then get these really sharp pains in my eye and I had a lot of numbness

around my mouth on the right side and I wasn't able to eat because I wasn't able to open my mouth

because they have to cut through all of the chewing muscles essentially so that has recovered but I

still can't like I still you know if I go to take a large mouth for I'm like oh my jaw so it's you know I

still can't fully open my mouth like I used to be able to or and yeah I do have long-standing nerve

damage but in terms of the cognitive thankfully actually my surgeon did an incredible job and in

terms of the radiotherapy because it was cyberknife they managed to miss the optic nerve

which is what they said that if I had the other type the generalized radiotherapy I would have gone

blind in my right eye because of the location of where the tumor was and where they would have had to

cover but thankfully due to these new technologies they're able to pinpoint exactly

where it is and so I've kept my sight in my right eye so that was a huge win well yeah and that's all

thanks to research and all the advancements we've had in the last you know a few years yeah wow thanks

thanks to that yeah and just tell us a little bit about your your background before your diagnosis

in terms of exercise you talked about training and racing but what were you racing I know you

mentioned Ironman yeah so um originally my kind of sporting background I suppose started off

weightlifting um so when I went to university I was just studying psychology nothing sport related

at all and um kind of funnily actually I hated PE as a child um I was very self-conscious I was kind of a

bit of the dumpy one in school and even though I was quite good at sport I hated being in PE I hated being

exposed and being in front of kids and shorts and a t-shirt and made to do sports so I used to forge

notes from my mum and um so they didn't have to take part in PE and I used to go in with like tape to tape up

my fingers and pretend that I'd sprained a finger or these kind of things I never had to actually do PE

and then it all kind of then changed when I went to university um because actually during my first

year of university I became anorexic so I had an eating disorder and um I had to leave university to

then recover from that um and I picked up weightlifting and that really helped with my

recovery because you know it's kind of cliche as it sounds I did go from the mindset of wanting to be

skinny to then wanting to be strong and it yeah and it was a complete game changer for me so I was kind of

and in those days as well it was which doesn't it's not really that long ago but um you wouldn't see

girls in the weightlifting kind of area in the gym I was still very new at that time so um a lot of my

friends used to ask to come along with me and then see what I was doing and they knew that I was lifting

weights and they wanted to kind of get involved like female friends and so I then started to train

them and then that's when I then found the love for training other people and seeing them grow and you

know flourish in terms of their self-esteem and confidence um and that's how I then got into the

fitness industry ironically I then decided to do this challenge for cancer research um in memory of

my grandparents um where I would do an event every month for a year and then finish with the Ironman

for anyone who is not aware what is an Ironman yeah so um it's a triathlon essentially um but it's an

insane triathlon extreme um yeah it's an extreme triathlon yeah um and you've got so after your swim

um which is a 4k swim I want to say 3.9 um you then do 180 kilometers on the bike and then you finish with

the marathon casual yeah yeah so that was the aim um and it was going very well but thank you COVID and

then obviously all of my diagnosis I actually haven't finished it um but you know never say never

but I was doing all of my challenges so I then started to race um and then so it just kind of

started off with doing some 10ks and kind of at the beginning like the first like month and then I was

like oh you know what I'll push myself a little bit more so then I did the Richmond duathlon and I never

I hadn't ridden a bike since I was about 12 years old in in Centre Park so that was an interesting one

getting like you know my first kind of road bike and then I was like yeah I can do a duathlon that's fine

take out Richmond Hill multiple times yeah and then it just kind of grew from there really so every

month I was doing either a running or a duathlon or a triathlon and then endurance kind of endurance

sport I suppose became my thing in that time that obviously with the end goal of being um being

Ironman but weightlifting still always been my passion and that's what I then got back into now but

with a combination so now I'm a crossfitter so I kind of have combined the endurance and the

cardiovascular stuff with the weightlifting and with other crazy things thrown in the mix as anyone

that sees crossfitters do yeah well understand I've got so many questions to ask you relating to

that um but first I just wanted to ask is I didn't know about your eating disorder oh yeah did you I

mean you had anorexia when you're at university has has all of this allowed you to have a sustained

recovery from that or is it something that it still affects you oh yeah um so I would say that before I

was diagnosed with cancer things were probably good um they always say that you know having an

eating disorder it will never go away it'll always live with you it's whether you can manage it and my

dietician at the time she was incredible and she described it as having like the gremlin in your

shoulder and it's whether you listen to the gremlin and I learned very well to not listen to the

gremlin kind of in my early 20s and going forward but I would say that since diagnosis and going

through treatment it becomes very difficult because you know when you're pumped with steroids

and different medications you put on um hormonal medication that then puts you into a medical

menopause and then I am 15 kilos heavier than before I started my cancer treatment now

admittedly quite a lot of that is because I also then changed my training so I went into CrossFit

and I have gained a lot more muscle mass however there is my body shape is completely different my

hips are so much bigger than they used to be um I'm like three dress sizes bigger than I used to be all

those things are massive triggers for me um and I had a lot of low moments going through treatment

and um where I really struggled seeing the weight go on I got back into the habit of weighing myself

which wasn't helped by the fact that when you obviously go in for treatment they weigh you at

there so that started to trigger me I then started to weigh myself at home so I did do things to help so I

said to my team if you weigh me you cannot read out the number I don't want to see the number on the

scale but also the nurse can't kind of say it while she's writing it down I don't want to know I can't

know which I imagine is very hard given that you you usually get a different member of staff every time

you go to the hospital and you get passed between so many different people yeah so if it was if it was

someone new or someone that I hadn't had before I would then just say oh by the way can you not say the

number I'm not going to look and they they know they kind of I think they get it quite a lot so I never had

anyone kind of go oh why is that or anything you know it was oh yeah yeah that's fine but I also found that

my way of if I lose control in other aspects of my life and this is very common with people with

eating disorders when you find that you are losing control the only thing that you feel like you can

control is your weight and your diet and your exercise and so that's where the gremlin I suppose

as it was was a lot harder to not listen to because I was I had no control over my cancer or my treatment

plan and what it was doing to my body so in my mind the only thing that I could control was what's on my

plate and what I eat and what I don't eat essentially and then trying to control my weight

which I then discovered actually I have zero control over when you're going through treatment

as well because there's so many other factors that come into it but it was yeah it was very hard to kind

of know in my mind I really need to eat well and eat enough food to keep my body healthy to withstand

the treatment that's going on but then also with having that background not relapse and not kind of

think oh well I'm another kilo heavier another kilo or I shouldn't eat that then okay let's slash

my calories down and you know I'd be lying if I said it didn't happen yes it did there were times where I

ate significantly less than what I should do but I got help for it and I think that's a big thing like I

as soon as started to see that happen I reached out I told my team about it I told my nurse about it they

know my history they know you know everything to do with my anorexia and the disorder that I had I was

very open with them about that from the beginning so I worked with a dietician and then kind of

gradually got you know a little less panicked about the whole weight aspect of it I still

fluctuate now in terms of my mental health with it I still struggle you know I'd be lying if I said that

I'm absolutely fine with it no I'm not but there are ways that you can deal with it and I think

particularly now in the sport that I'm in that really helps because we eat a lot and I'm you know

I'm in the gym with other girls who are eating a lot and so I see them eating that and knowing that

that's fueling them for what we're about to do when we train and also it helps me in my job now to educate

people that are going through cancer treatment that you know you you do still need to eat because I

see it but then you know I kind of need to practice what I preach right because I tell my clients you

need to eat to be able to maintain your muscle mass and these kind of things it sort of helps in some

ways because I then need to be like oh actually well I'm telling her that's why am I not doing it myself

you know thank you for being honest about the fact that you still struggle with it because I'm sure

that will resonate with people and also I'm really pleased to know that your team have been

supportive around that because you know from what I remember from having chemo my advice from my

oncologist was eat as much food as you can because your body needs it and I can imagine that if you have

an eating disorder that's really hard to hear and really hard to do yeah yeah especially when some of

the advice is like eat whatever you want just you know whatever you fancy eat cake and you're like I

don't want to eat the cake yeah I got it through when I had the surgery as well because when your body is

recovering from surgery if you don't eat and you don't you know feel yourself then actually your

recovery is going to be significantly slower than what it would be if you maintain that healthy diet

yeah you know and also trust that things will change because I know with me I put on weight when I

want to have my secondary diagnosis and started a load of drugs that basically did things to my

hormones and my you know put me into even more of a menopause than I was before but that regulated

over time and I kept eating lots and kept eating well so yeah um yeah but also just you talked to your

team about these things as well yeah I'm gareth the editor of vita magazine vita is breast cancer

nerves magazine for anyone affected by breast cancer it's full of inspiring real-life stories

expert tips on coping with the effects of breast cancer and articles on health and well-being in

our new spring issue you can read about a mother and daughter who were both diagnosed with breast

cancer 12 years apart find out the latest in breast cancer research get tips on coping with fatigue

read about the benefits of getting outdoors and much more subscribe to vita now at

breastcancenow.org forward slash vita so back to exercise you're a personal trainer you were a

personal trainer before you got your diagnosis but you incredibly kept on exercising and

training throughout your chemo and your treatment tell us about that yeah um yeah I kind of

got a bit of a reputation I think for being slightly nuts um but actually all I did was it was sensible

and it wasn't nuts I think just to the outside world it probably looked it um but um yeah so I yeah been a

coach for number of years now god maybe eight years when I went started to go through chemo I knew in

myself just from the kind of the the background that I had um in terms of my like my job that I uh the

importance that it would have for me to be able to keep exercising one for fatigue I knew that was a

big thing anyway um but then also I knew that one of the side effects from chemo as I said was muscle

wastage um because for various different reasons one the drug itself but then also two because you

become more sedentary so the more sedentary we are the more prone we become to then losing the muscle

that we've got because obviously we're not working them those two things pretty much

terrified me I would say like I didn't want to be fatigued I wanted to still be able to coach my

clients as much as I could do you know I was self-employed as well so from a financial

perspective it was tough and obviously we had COVID anyway but I still had clients online that I

could still try and coach and um be there on the other side of the laptop but then also before I went

into treatment I was the fittest I'd ever been you know I was obviously training for the Iron Man and

everything and I loved my body for the first time in a long time and I loved what it was doing and I loved

the you know the strength that it had and the fitness that it had and I didn't want to lose all of

that and I knew that I was going to lose that inevitably some of it but I wanted to try and keep as

much of that as I could and in my head I was like well there must be some sort of correlation between if I

try and keep up my strength and my fitness to getting through this treatment and to try and get

it through it in uh you know a safe but healthy way as you can probably tell I am a geek and I do my research

and I knew what these drugs were kind of they were going into me and everything and I knew what it

would do to my body and I knew the sort of the side effects it can have on your heart and things like

that so it helped me mentally to write myself a bit of a training program and to think okay I'm going to

try and stick to this and do this a couple times a week that was around kind of the the three to four

day window when I might feel a little bit rubbish um and I very much learned quickly and the hard way um

of how you need to kind of reserve your energy when you're going through chemo so my first chemo

session I came out thinking that I was superwoman think the amount of steroids that I had I came home

and I was like I actually feel great like this is fine I don't know what this like chat about EC is I

don't know what they've had and I haven't what's EC? EC are so yeah yeah EC yeah sorry yeah and so when

I came home from my first one of that I felt absolutely fine the following day my mom came down

to visit and we went on a 8k walk came home I did a workout I did one of my sessions I was you know doing

some push-ups a bit on the bike some lunges various different things she thought I'd lost the plot um

and then the following day I went to Sainsbury's and I had to get an Uber home And that shocked me

because I've never had to use public transport to kind of, you know, get home from the shops, right?

It's like 15 minutes around the corner from my house. So I very quickly learned that's not what

you do. You don't have chemo and then exercise to that level. So then the second time I then had it,

felt a little bit worse as you do with these, obviously, that cumulative, that's the one. But I

still moved. I would say I would moved rather than put myself through that level of intensity that I

did before. So I still kept up with kind of walking, but to a lesser of degree, I didn't go for the kind of

eight, nine K. I use my resistance bands at home to try and still preserve, as but it was kind of an

experiment for me. I was changing the program as I was going through it, and I was writing different

things and trying different ways of still exercising, but always keeping some energy in the

tank. And that's why I always say to everyone is you still want to move and you still want to do some

activity and exercise, but you always want to do it knowing that you've got energy reserves in the

tank. If you don't, then that's what's then going to cause you to then get the uber home from

Sainsbury's the next day. From there, once I'd kind of got through the EC and then I went on to

Paxiltaxal, it became a little bit better in terms of my nausea and things like that. And I was

recovering a little bit quicker than I was from the EC before. So that's when I then started to do more

kind of like intensity stuff that I was used to, still very much to a less degree than what I had done

before. But I never fatigued in chemo. That was the number one thing that I never experienced. And so

from that is that there must be some sort of correlation between the fact that I've kept up my

exercise and I'm moving a lot. And what they say is actually true. The fact that, you know, they do say

if you try and move, then movement helps with fatigue, not just in cancer, but in general kind

of, you know, other health conditions that cause fatigue movement can help whether that be a 10

minute walk, you know, just something to try and kickstart because you can go on a downward spiral

if you feel fatigue. So you sit down, you don't move, then you feel even more tired. So you sit

down, you don't move. And you're kind of always on this downward spiral unless you break it. And when

I then went through the six months of chemo and I came out the other side not having experienced

fatigue, but knowing that I had kept up with my exercise all the way through, it was like, there

must be something to do with that. Also in terms of like my strength when I actually was allowed to go

back into the gym and gyms reopened after COVID. And I went back into weightlifting. Yeah, I was

weaker than what I was before, but that was always going to happen. But I could still lift. I knew that

I had a long way to go to where I was, you know, before, but I was actually quite surprised and

pleasantly surprised at the amount of muscle mass that I'd managed to just maintain. And that was my

aim the whole time going through chemo. I knew that I wasn't going to get stronger. And that's what I

try and say to, you know, all of my clients as well, like you won't get stronger going through chemo.

We can never think of it as a linear progression. Your aim now is to maintain and that or and to not

drop off as much as you would do if you weren't to move. I proved to myself that I had done that. So

kind of the experiment, I guess, that I put myself through in those six months proved to myself that

actually exercise works. And then the fact that I had such a fantastic outcome of my treatment as

well. And I said to my oncologist when I got my clear results, because he actually had said himself,

you know, you've, you've constantly moved, you've always, and he was always very pro that he

never wanted me to stop that. And he said, you know, listen to your body. And that's what I did the

entire time. And then when I went when we got the clear results, and I said to him, do you think there

is anything involved in this, the fact that I've kept moving and I've responded so well to

treatment. And he said yes. And so from there, that's when I was like, right, that's why I've then

gone into the job that I do now. I will never ever say that exercise is a treatment. It's not a treatment

on its own. You should never view exercise as a cure for cancer. That's not what we're saying. But it

complements the treatments that you will have in the hospital. And it actually, because of the fact

that it helps you to get through it, and you can stay strong, you can keep your heart healthy when

you're going through chemo. Because of that, it should be seen and they are starting to actually

view it now as a treatment for cancer, but alongside medical treatment. And the two work

hand in hand, I was determined to not become what you see on the films and the TV, which is completely

not what happens anyway. They always get thinner, whereas actually, when you're on chemo, you

always get bloated. And you don't go gray, you go red instead. Yeah. But yeah, I was determined to

not go down that route. But then as it then progressed in the six months, I then started to see

the huge benefits that I was having from it. And then that's what then led me into qualifying for

what I do now and moving forward with that. It's absolutely incredible. I hadn't realized quite

the extent of the amount and the intensity of the exercise you were doing throughout your chemo

treatment. And then to have that result afterwards and to still be able to lift, you know,

not too different is incredible. So tell us about what you do now with cancer patients. Yeah. So I

think I was sat in the chemo chair at the time and I was like, right, there has got to be some sort of

qualification that I can get because more people need to know about the benefits of exercise when

you are going through cancer treatment. And I can't just sit here and sort of say like, hello, you

know, I'm an advocate for this, I need to have actual grounding for it. And then sure enough,

there actually was. So I came across can rehab, which is the qualification that I've got. And it

meant that I could then work with cancer patients using exercise. And it's not physio, but it's a

exercise specialist. So in the hour sessions that I have with them, we exercise as you would do with a

personal trainer. But it's working with someone that is qualified to be able to exercise knowing

what drugs you're on, what no knowing what surgery you've had. And, you know, if you're going through

chemo and you've got a pick line or a port, it's knowing about what what movements you can and

can't do with those particular things. When I then started to research into this qualification, I

was like, right, that's what I'm going to do. So I started studying just before I finished chemo. So

I started, yeah, studying while I was going through treatment. Then when I finished

treatment, then I then ramped up, did all of my exams. And then I qualified kind of around the same

time that I found out that I had the all clear, actually. And that's what I've done ever since. So

since around kind of September 2021, I have been a cancer exercise rehabilitation specialist is

actually my formal title. And I love it. The work that I do, it's rewarding doesn't even do it

justice, I think that, you know, but it's, it is incredible to see the benefits, not just physical

but mental that it exercise has on people when they're going through treatment. And a lot of

actually what I do is prehab stuff as well. It's not just rehabilitation after treatment, but it's

actually prehabbing people before they go into treatment or before they go into surgery. So I'll

be working with someone that's, for example, going through chemo at the moment. And so our goal

at the moment is, as I've said before, is to maintain so to try and prevent muscle atrophy, try

and prevent fatigue. But also from a mental health perspective, it just helps them to feel normal

because they're doing something that is outside of the hospital and it's outside of the world of

cancer. And it's something that maybe they did before or maybe they didn't do before, they might

not have exercised before and this is a new thing to them. They can feel the benefit of it, they can feel

the benefit of particularly strength training and using weights because it makes you feel

powerful. But they do, you know, so I'll be working with someone through chemo doing that, but then

knowing that we've got surgery coming up, whatever surgery that might be. So I've got people

at the moment that I'm leading them into having a hysterectomy or and mastectomy. And there's

various different things that we'll be doing. So if it's mastectomy, we're working a lot on upper

body strength and mobility because your mobility can suffer once you've gone through mastectomy

surgery. And there's a massive correlation at the moment, the NHS are now starting to see it, that the

more we prehab patients going into surgery, actually it's more cost effective for them

because their recovery times are quicker, which means they don't have to be an inpatient for as

long. They don't have to be on medications for as long. So it means that they don't have to get

prescriptions for as long. And so I kind of when I first started my job, it was really hard. It was

really hard to get people to listen and to see the importance of exercise and to take it seriously.

Whereas now with more research that's coming out, they're actually they're seeing that this is

legit, because it's a win win. And the patient wins, but also the NHS wins because they're not

having to spend as much money in terms of their aftercare. But then also obviously from the rehab

perspective, I get people that have come to me post treatment. And it might even be like a year post

treatment, but as you know, like you still have side effects afterwards. And I still get side

effects of kind of the chemo side of things, like even though it was, it was like ages ago. And from

that kind of development, it's that is where you can then start to rebuild. So I call it the rebuild

because when we're rehabbing, yeah, we can start to build strength again. And then seeing people

start to lift heavier. And when they come back to me week on week, and then they start to be able to lift

like the heavier dumbbell the next week, they might be able to do like a couple more reps than they

were able to do the week before. And then just seeing the kind of the little like glint in their

eye, like you can always see it and you know that they're starting to believe in themselves again.

And I think that's a huge thing as well is that when we go through these kind of terrible diagnosis,

really, you lose your self belief, because you kind of whether you consciously or

subconsciously think it, you kind of think why has my body done this to me. And it's very easy to kind of

blame your body for it. And it was something that I talked to my therapist a lot about was the fact that

I kind of blame my body for doing this to me. And that was something that I battled with for quite a long

time. And my clients are very open with me, which I'm really grateful for. And I try and create like

an open space for them to talk about it in the session. And it's a common theme that I get with a

lot of people that I see is that they don't like their bodies anymore, because their body did this

to them. Whereas when you're then going through the kind of the training programs that they go

through with me, they can start to accept their body again and like their body again, because

their body is actually helping them so much. It wasn't your body that did this to you. Your body is

actually trying to help you now. We're putting it through hell, essentially in terms of these

treatments, but it's still there for you. As you can tell, I love what I do. I can imagine that the

reward for your mental health as well for improving someone else's mental health has a

knock on effect to you. So yeah, great job. And also it's kind of, we have chats, you know, like they'll

chat to me, they ask me questions. I'm very open with them and honest with them about my treatment

and what's going on with me. And I think that's also what they love about it as well is the fact that I'm

not just trying to help them with their exercise and things like that, but I understand it. I've

been through it myself. So it's kind of, I would say like 75% exercise, 25% therapy sometimes. Or

sometimes it might be like half and half. They've got that safe hour where they can talk to me about

anything. And if they've got worries or their bloods might not have been so good, or maybe

they've got like scam results coming up, like I get that. I understand the scan ziety as we call it.

It's not just the physical side of things, but it's the mental health side of things that I think is so

important. And that's quite a large bit that's missed, I think, in terms of when you're going

through treatment, like not having that exercise specialist to go through that with you. But ever

since I qualified, it was always my goal that when you're sat in that room and you get that diagnosis,

that you will have an exercise specialist that will go through this with you. So I'm just hoping

that I can build up an army. Got it. Well, you're tempting me, but I think I've got too many jobs at

the moment. But I would definitely train with you. So how does someone sign up to be your client? Yeah,

so I've got a website. It's called One Step Training. The reason behind the name is because I,

when I was going through treatment and people said, and even now people say to me, how did you get

through it? How do you get through all of this? You know, you've from the brain surgery and then the

chemo and like stage four and you're young and da, da, da, like how are you dealing with all of this

mentally? And I was like, to be honest, I've always had the same motto going through treatment and

that's literally taking one step at a time. And I never thought about the bigger picture or coming

out of it or, you know, what's going to happen in a year's time or even what's going to happen in a

week's time. I would literally just think, well, what's the next step that I have to do? And whether

that was just go and have a scan, not think about the result, but have the scan. So at the beginning, I

was like, okay, right, so I've got to go and have an MRI. I'm not going to think about the result of the

MRI. I just know that I've got to go and have an MRI. You have the MRI. What's the next step? Go and see

the oncologist. Obviously, yes, for the results, but I wouldn't think about that. I would just

think, what's the next step? Hospital. That's it. That's all I need to think about. I know that on

Monday morning, I've got to go to the hospital and breaking it down into really small steps like that

really helped me. And when I started to kind of tell other people about that, then it started to then

help them. And I saw that actually, as simple as it sounds, just a one step at a time, if you actually

properly break it down, it does significantly help. And that's kind of I suppose what inspired

the name for this now is because I try and get my clients to see that as well and patients to see that

that, don't look at the bigger picture in the sense of, okay, you can't do one push-up now. So how are

you going to do 10? Don't think about it like that. Just think the aim is one. The one step, the way that

they're going to get to, is actually doing an incline push-up on a wall. That's your step one.

That's all I want you to do. And they can do that. So it's like, okay, you can do that. So then we then

build it into stages. So everything always has a one step in front. And you never have to think about

two, three, four, because that's way too overwhelming for anyone to cope with. And so

that's what inspired the name for this. So I do one-to-ones in London, house visits, and I've got

a space inbox or gym space there that I use. But I also see clients all over the world, which is

really pretty cool. Whether you've got bits of kit at home or not doesn't matter. I kind of always

start off my online clients with one piece of kit, and that's just a resistance band. And that's all

they need. So it means that I can access everyone from anywhere. Yes, you can find me on

onesteptraining.com. Perfect. And we'll put those links in the show notes as well. We know there

are benefits to exercise, not just in terms of building strength after or during cancer, but

also in terms of helping keep cancer away. How does that work? Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah. So

there's has been longstanding research anyway into the kind of the preventions of cancer. So

there's lots of different things that people say that you can do to prevent your chance of getting

cancer. And that's a combination of not smoking, drinking, diet, and exercise. There's always

been a big one. Kind of reasons for that, weight. So there is a correlation between obesity and

cancer. So obviously, exercising helps with keeping weight down and the prevention of

obesity, which can then help with the prevention of cancer. Hormonal profiling as well. So

actually, for females that have a higher body fat percentage, that can then increase the kind of the

estrogen levels, which can then cause cancers. Again, breast cancer is a big one for that. So when

you're then talking about people that have already been diagnosed with cancer, but then have

come out the other side of it, and we're talking about the recurrence rates, kind of have to view it

in the same way. That, you know, if you do exercise and you can keep your body like the hormonal

profiling regular, and you can keep your weight down as much as possible after treatment as well,

then that all contributes to recurrence rates and mortality rates too, as a result of that. So yeah,

even when you have had cancer and you've come out the other side of it, still view the knowledge and

the research that we have that exercise prevents cancer, even if you already have it, you know,

because like, for me, I exercised as a vegetarian, no family history and didn't drink, smoke,

whatever. I still got cancer. So if I was to then view that and then go, well, I did all of these

things and I still got cancer, so screw it, I'm just going to do all of those things. I'll just be

shooting myself in the foot, whether that's because of the fact that I've already had it, and

it's a it's a recurrence that would have happened, or I've accelerated the chance of it happening

again, because of the fact that I then did all of these things that then increase the castings and

you know. So for that reason, I would always say to people, don't view it as a kind of give up case of,

oh, well, it's happened now, so, you know, I'm just not even going to bother, actually, no, still see

it as a way to try and prevent recurrence from happening by doing exercise, then you're helping

with that as well as trying to keep your weight down, which obviously, you know, we discussed at

the beginning, like, it can happen and it happens to all of us with these treatments. So if we can try

and keep it down as much as possible, then it then all then contributes to helping prevent the

cancers from coming back. Yeah, where if someone has is going through cancer treatment or has just

had a surgery and has never lifted weights before, and they have no idea where to start, where would

what would you recommend they do to get started? So first of all, always seek professional. If you

haven't done anything before, don't start trying to do like YouTube videos. And, you know, things

kind of and hit training and things like that, because it's too intense. And hit training and

stuff, especially like on YouTube videos, they include a lot of plyometric stuff, which is not

what you want to be doing right at the beginning. What's the time it took time at so jumping. Oh,

right. So things like squat, jump, star jumps, tuck jumps, those kind of things, you know, a lot of

hit training videos on YouTube include that and I'm not naming names of people, but there are

particular people out there that have YouTube videos that use a lot of jumping in as part of their

workout videos. And it's very easy to jump on those and to follow those because you probably think

like, oh, I'm a beginner. So I'm going to follow along with these videos. But actually, they're

not designed for people that have, you know, egg on through these various different treatments or

have had these surgeries. But also, if you've never done anything near that, you'll find that

you'll be incredibly sore and it'll probably put you off and you'll never want to do it again. So the

first and foremost, it would be to seek someone that is a professional. To help guide you through

that. But then also just starting off with body weight. If you think what you weigh is what you're

then going to be working with when you do certain body weighted movements, right? So body weighted

squat, you're working with your body weight. Body weighted lunges, you're working with your body

weight. Push ups, planks, you know, all these different things. There's so much that you can do

with your body that you are using the load of yourself without having to even lift anything up

additionally. So you don't even have to lift a weight at the beginning. You don't you don't have

to fear lifting weight to get resistance training. And I think that's a big thing when you

talk about resistance training, people automatically think lifting heavy weight and

that's scary. And I can't do that. But that's not what we mean when we talk about resistance

training. It's about moving your body with additional load, but using your body and doing

lunges and squats, that's still resistance training because you're still working your

muscle, you know, you're not going for a run, you're not doing cardiovascular stuff. You're

not doing star jumps, right? But you're actually doing controlled movement. It's all about

training your body to move in a safe and effective way, building strength back up in whatever way

that might be, whether that's using your body at the start, or starting to introduce some

resistance weights in. People get scared at the beginning. And that's completely normal. It's

completely normal to feel scared and intimidated by exercise. But it's about viewing exercises

different to what you probably think it is right now. And it's not the kind of hard, sweaty,

grunting type of training that you probably see and think that that's what exercise is. It's not.

It should be fun. And but you should come out of it, think feeling better than when you walked in.

Yeah. And I think one of the fantastic points you've made is the one about prehabbing before

treatment and before surgery, because I think a lot of people will think about getting better

after cancer treatment after surgery, but actually you can do it before, during and after.

And yeah, that's really. And actually, the sooner you start, the better. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a

huge thing. A lot of people, I have had people come to me and say, oh, I've got, you know, chemo start,

I'm in the middle of chemo, I finish in three months time, can I contact you in three months and start

then? And I say, well, you can. But actually, it's better if you start now. And sometimes that can be

because people are feeling so fatigued and pretty rubbish. And their self confidence has taken a

massive dip. So they mentally, they think, oh, in three months time, I'll be out of this phase of my

treatment. So I won't be fatigued. And I'll feel a bit strong and I'll just feel more myself. But

actually, it's the opposite. But you might as well try now before you actually get to that point. So

then you can kind of nip it in the bud, as they say. Just to go back to the cancer diagnosis. So you were

obviously given this incredibly bleak diagnosis a few years ago. If someone is listening to this

podcast and has just had a similarly awful diagnosis or prognosis, what would you say to

them? I would say, at the moment, it feels terrifying. And the unknown is the worst. Not know

if you don't know what your treatment is that's coming up. And what that's going to look like,

that's often the worst part of it. Once you get your treatment plan, and you know the direction that

you're heading in, it'll feel a lot clearer. And it'll feel better. But I would then say that all

through it all, just don't give up hope. That's the number one thing that I kept throughout the entire

time. I didn't know if I was going to come out the other side. I knew that I was going to go through all

these treatments, but I didn't know if it was going to be a wasted effort. But I just never saw it as a

wasted effort. I always tried to keep holding on to the hope that I had. That, you know, if we're going

to try everything, and the greatest outcome that we can have is that I'll still be here on the other

side of it. That's, you know, that's the best result that we can have. Times can feel bleak, and

there can be times where you do want to give up on hope. But if you hold on to that, and then you keep

believing in yourself and believing in the work that is going into these treatments and the

research that's going into it, and more things are coming out, and just hold on to that, you'll get

through it. Yeah. On that note, we ask everyone the same question at the end of this podcast, which is,

if one thing could change in terms of breast cancer diagnosis, treatment, and beyond in the next few

years, what would you like to happen? When you have that diagnosis, and you receive that as part of

your information that you get, whether that be from the team or the leaflets that you get and

things like that, you have access to an exercise specialist. You know, you have access to your

nursing team, you're on a oncologist, you have access to the dieticians in the hospital,

physiotherapists, but we don't have enough access to a cancer exercise and rehabilitation

specialist. And that's the number one thing that I really want everyone to be able to have access to,

or pointed in the right direction, because people don't know that we exist, and people don't know

that actually exercise is so important for your treatment, and you can still trust your body when

you're going through treatment to be able to be able to do these things and not feel weak and not

feel scared to move in certain ways. And in the meantime, until we have that access to everyone,

how can people find you online on social media? So on my Instagram, my Instagram is at

Framwickfield, and then in my bio there is the link to my website as well. And happy to receive DMs, or

there's a form submission on my website that you can write a form out, and then it'll go straight to

my email, and then I then contact people from there to then get them started. And we'll obviously put

all those links in the show notes as well. Final question, how are you going to celebrate your 30th

birthday this year? Oh, that's a big party, obviously. And then I really want to do kind of my

dream trip to go to Africa. I've wanted to do it ever since I was a little kid, and it was kind of one of the

things that I was so fearful of, I'm never going to see an elephant. And so I really want this year to be

the year that I see an elephant, and not in a zoo. An actual elephant in the wild. That's yeah, that's

how I want to celebrate. That sounds like a great plan. Well, I wish you all the best in your year of

work and exercise and travels and elephant spotting. And yeah, congratulations. And Fram,

thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Thank you for having me. It's been great. And you

can follow Breast Cancer Now on social media at Breast Cancer Now. All the links mentioned in this

episode are listed in the show notes in your podcast app. Thank you for listening to the Breast

Cancer Now podcast.