The BMT: Will this time be different?
By Steve Kastenbaum

Transcript:

:00:00 (Sound of Atlantic Avenue)

Patti Hagan [:00:02]
This is a sweet neighborhood. It was.

Steve Kastenbaum [:00:06]
Patti Hagan is standing on Atlantic Avenue near Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn. She's in the shadow of the Barclay Center arena and the high rise apartment buildings that's surrounded. This neighborhood has changed a lot in the last 20 plus years.

Patti Hagan [:00:23]
Well, it was little houses, little structures that people lived in. Further down that way, there was a, um, there used to be a gardening place. Guardel's had a nursery outlet down the street. There was a clam place where you could get clam chowder.

Steve Kastenbaum [:00:46]
Patti is 81 years old. Her memory is sharp. She can recall every detail about the homes and buildings that used to be here.

Patti Hagan [:00:53]
There was a sort of a brothel over there.

Steve Kastenbaum [:00:57]
Really?

Patti Hagan [:00:58]
Oh sure. It then became a cult Christian ministry of some sort.

Steve Kastenbaum [01:04]
More than two decades ago, she tried to warn anyone who would listen about what was coming. Developer Bruce Ratner had his sights. Set on the Long Island Railroad yard along Atlantic Avenue and several blocks surrounding it for a mega project.

Patti Hagan [01:19]
I thought there goes the neighborhood.

Steve Kastenbaum [01:22]
I'm Steve Kastenbaum. When the Atlantic Yards Project was first unveiled in 2003, Bruce Ratner promised to transform the area between Prospect Heights and Fort Green into a new city center. He convinced the state that they could build a costly platform over the tracks on Atlantic Avenue and use it as a base for apartment buildings. But Ratner said to make it financially viable, they needed to seize several blocks next to the rail yard so they could put up even more housing; over 6,400 apartments in total. His company was obligated to make 2200 of them affordable. There would be new schools and parks, an entire new neighborhood.

Patty co-founded a grassroots organization to fight that project: Develop, Don't Destroy Brooklyn. Their battle centered on the project's use of eminent domain, a law that allowed the state to seize the homes on the blocks next to the rail yard, not to build a highway or schools or other public amenities, but to hand the land over to a private real estate developer.

Patti Hagan [:02:29]
It was David against Goliath. I mean, we, we just, we were little and we were feisty, but it was a lot of work.

(Sound of protest music and singing) :02:43

Daniel Goldstein [:02:50]
Development does not need to destroy to be a success.

Protester: [:02:55]
We will start building the Atlantic yards. And putting the next (cheers)

Protester: [:03:00]
It's a question of whether or not the project is going to actually deliver the long awaited public benefits or whether or not those benefits are gonna be delayed indefinitely.

Protester: [:03:09]
And this project offers tremendous opportunity for the borough of Brooklyn.

Protesters: [:03:13]
Hey Ratner, can’t you hear? We don’t want your buildings here.

(Protest music) [03:18]

Steve Kastenbaum [:03:26]
They clashed with the government in court for years. The state argued that the project was in the public's interest because a lot more housing could be built and it would generate additional tax revenue for the city and state. Ultimately, Develop, Don't Destroy Brooklyn lost the fight when the Supreme Court declined to hear their case,

(Protest music) [:03:47]

Steve Kastenbaum [03:52]
More than two decades later, towering apartment buildings stand where the streets were once filled with small homes and mom and pop businesses. Thousands of newcomers moved into the glass and steel, high-rise buildings changing the character of the neighborhood. It's the realization of Patty's worst nightmare. But more than 20 years later, the entire mega project still hasn't been completed.

Bruce Ratner [:04:15]
We are finally here to celebrate the grand opening of the Barclays Center Arena. Yeah, that's how to say it. Okay. And you know what? Here it is.

Steve Kastenbaum [04:28]
That's Bruce Ratner speaking at the ribbon cutting.

Bruce Ratner [04:30]
Whoa. We got there.

Steve Kastenbaum [04:33]
The 18,000 seat Barclays Center Arena was built and some high-rise apartment buildings went up. But during the process, the economy was hit by the Great Recession and Forest City Ratner went bankrupt. Years later, the company that took over the project defaulted on a $349 million loan.

(music) [:04:53]

Steve Kastenbaum [:04:58]
The promised deck over the train tracks was never built. More than two decades later, Brooklynites are still waiting for a remaining 876 affordable apartments. A third developer is now responsible for meeting those and other obligations. In November of 2025, they held their first public forum asking community members what they thought should be done on the site.
So more than 20 years later, it was like they were starting from scratch.

To understand how Atlantic yards happened the way it did, you need to know about the process that made it possible. It's called a general project plan or GPP. It's a kind of shortcut to get around local land use reviews. Atlantic Yards was developed with almost zero local input. The GPP process was recently used for other big projects like Moynihan Train Hall at Penn Station, Hudson Yards and the expansion of the Javits Convention Center. Now, a new GPP for a mega project on Brooklyn's waterfront is drawing a lot of attention for its size and scope, and some people think the problems that plagued Atlantic Yards are a foreshadowing of things to come with the Brooklyn Marine Terminal Project.

(Sound of street) [:06:24]

Steve Kastenbaum [:06:28]
Victoria Alexander has a storefront on Van Brunt Street in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn. It's part art gallery, part independent local real estate office. Lately she's been thinking a lot about the people who fought against Atlantic Yards.

Victoria Alexander [:06:44]
You know, they had an eminent domain issue that they were actually kicking, you know, lower
income community members out of the community, out of their homes.

Steve Kastenbaum [:06:52]
When Victoria learned that the Brooklyn Marine Terminal Project was developed through a general project plan, she realized that it was the same process used to steamroll over Patty Hagan and the folks with Developed, Don't Destroy Brooklyn.

Victoria Alexander [:07:09]
So like they, there is some understanding of like, oh, these are our comrades and arms like that, that have gone through this other experience and we can learn from them.

Steve Kastenbaum [:07:14]
The GPP she's worried about governs a massive 122 acres stretch of waterfront in Red Hook and along Columbia Street, an area that was once a bustling port.

Victoria Alexander [:07:25]
The BMT, the Brooklyn Marine Terminal, nobody lives there, right? We live adjacent to it, but we don't have a huge community of people that are being displaced.

Steve Kastenbaum [:07:33]
The $3.5 billion plan would transform the long, neglected section of waterfront just a few blocks away from Victoria's business and home.

Victoria Alexander [:07:42]
We started hearing that this would possibly happen, so I wasn't surprised, but when they announced it, it was really heartbreaking and you know, it was like, oh shit, they're gonna get us.

Steve Kastenbaum [:07:54]
The plan calls for a modern port, it would be a centerpiece in a system for shipping food around the city on the water. City officials hope this so-called Blue Highway will reduce truck trips and pollution in the five boroughs. The plan also includes a renovated cruise ship terminal with a new hotel, elevated public park space that would act as a storm surge barrier, and 6,000 new units of housing around a third would be designated affordable.

Victoria Alexander [:08:24]
They're gonna destroy one of like the most special places left in New York City.

Steve Kastenbaum [:08:30]
It's the housing that worries Victoria, especially after what happened at Atlantic Yards.

Victoria Alexander [:08:35]
For me, I was like, oh, their fight is really about, you know, okay, what we're gonna be up against, 'cause we're gonna have another 10-20 year process ahead of us. This is just the beginning of that. And we'll go down the same road they are. And probably what is happening to them now happens to us where they changed the plan and they want it higher and bigger and more, and they can do that and they're just gonna railroad you. You just get railroaded through this process. Like they're just gonna colonize your community, um, and do what they want to you.

Steve Kastenbaum [:09:00]
Her concerns are rooted in the community that she helped to grow in Red Hook over the last 20 years, and her love for the waterfront.

Victoria Alexander [:09:08]
Well, I grew up in New Jersey on the shore, right in Monmouth County, and so we always had access to the water. I worked at an amusement park, like my whole life is sort of being by the beach and being, having that sort of carnie life and Red Hook was sort of like that, but for like the like dirty, gritty carnies that like made different sorts of art.

(music) [:09:24]

Steve Kastenbaum [:09:26]
Red Hook is an out of the way neighborhood. It's kind of a geographic sideshow. The subway doesn't go there. It's cut off from the rest of Brooklyn by the Brooklyn Queens Expressway on one side and Upper New York Bay, the harbor on the other for Victoria, that was part of Red Hook's appeal, along with the dilapidated, neglected piers.

Victoria Alexander [:09;50]
Being able to go and have access to nature in the city was wild. I still, to this day, I run something called Sunset Club, where every Wednesday I meet my friends when the weather is nice at Valentino Pier and we have a picnic and we watch the sun go down next to the Statue of Liberty. I don't think everybody has that access to nature in this concrete jungle. You know, like it's, it's really magical to me.

Steve Kastenbaum [:10:11]
Warehouses and industrial sites fill one side of Red Hook. On the other, there's the old waterfront. Sandwiched between are the Red hook houses, public housing that's home to over 6,000 low income New Yorkers. And then there's the old brick townhouses around Van Brunt Street.

Victoria Alexander [:10:28]
A place that felt, um, edgy and felt like things were possible, but the water was part of that.

Steve Kastenbaum [:10:37]
Years ago, the area was home to dock workers when it was a busy port.

Victoria Alexander [:10:41]
And I was like, God, I would love to buy a house down there.

Steve Kastenbaum [:10:45]
Victoria emptied her savings, sold an engagement ring, and got some help from her parents to make her dream come true. Now Victoria wants to preserve what she loves about the neighborhood, the identity that she was a part of creating.

(Sound of the waterfront) [11:01]

Steve Kastenbaum [:11:05]
Karen Blondel met up with me on the Red Hook dock. It's behind the Food Bazaar Supermarket.

Karen Blondel [:11:11]
You would've never got me to come out today if the offer wasn't let's go sit near the water. I would've said, no, come to my office then, you know what I'm sayin’?

Steve Kastenbaum [:11:22]
The area overlooks the harbor, and it has a great view of the Statue of Liberty. It's just a few blocks away from Victoria's storefront.

Karen Blondel [:11:30]
I come back to this water at least once or twice a week because those few minutes away, sometimes it's my only sabbatical from the project noise, from sitting there looking at concrete and no trees and you know, just hearing all of the urban sounds of a big city.

Steve Kastenbaum [:11:50]
Karen is a long time community activist. She's 62 years old.

Karen Blondel [:11:54]
I'm a Brooklyn, um, born person. I was born in Coney Island.

Steve Kastenbaum [:11:59]
She's president of the Red Hook Houses West Tenants Association.

Karen Blondel [:12:03 ]
So I applied for public housing 'cause I was home well homeless with a, a child. And, um, they picked me for the Red Hook houses Um, I got an apartment here in October of 1982.

Steve Kastenbaum [:12:18]
How old were you then?

Karen Blondel [:12:19]
Um, I was 19, 19 with a child.

Steve Kastenbaum [:12:22]
And you show up here in Red Hook. Had you ever been here before?

Karen Blondel [:12:26]
I had not. I literally had to look on the map for, um, where Red Hook was. So I was like, Red Hook, where is Red Hook at? And that's when I looked on the map and I said, oh wow.

(music) [:12:38]
I was happy to have the apartment, but I was also scared out of my wits. Just walking from Smith and 9th Street to Red Hook, at the time, it was very blighted. A very, um, isolating and it always felt very desolate.

I came to Red Hook and I saw hopelessness at the time, but I also saw community and I saw people who really just needed someone to, um, stand up for them.

Within a month, we had the beginning of one of the worst crack epidemics that you've ever seen. Yeah.

Steve Kastenbaum [:13:30]
For the past two decades, Karen and Victoria lived just a few blocks apart while real estate developers transformed other neighborhoods. Red Hook, for the most part, was left alone.

Victoria Alexander [:13:42]
God, it's barely changed in comparison to every other neighborhood in New York, in that, in that timeline. Um, the change has been really dramatic in some parts of New York and Red Hook, um, you know, things have changed, right? But like neighborhoods like Gowanus and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, huge amounts of change, right? They're, downtown Brooklyn unidentifiable compared to something that was 10 years ago.

Steve Kastenbaum [:14:00]
The first big change came in 2006 when a huge supermarket opened in an old warehouse on the waterfront. Expensive lofts were on the upper floors in the back. They created a public space with seating and a walkway along the water. It's where Karen and I met up.

Karen Blondel [:14:19]
When I moved to Red Hook, this used to be Dog City, dog packs of dogs used to run through here, but by them bringing in, uh, Fairway, which is now Food Bizarre,
Steve Kastenbaum:
This big supermarket over here,
Karen Blondel:
Right, and having to add the public space… Same thing with Ikea.

Steve Kastenbaum [:14:36}
The Ikea came in two years later and opened up more of the waterfront with a public esplanade and a ferry pier.

Karen Blondel [:14:42]
And it was a big fight to let them in, but they also came with open space for the public, and so it was those spaces, they also, uh, attracted me and the people from public housing to the waterfront. That added additional space for us to come back here and feel good about it.

Steve Kastenbaum [:16:02]
The Big Box store also brought in hundreds of jobs to Red Hook, but the biggest change to hit the area didn't come from real estate developers or new businesses. In 2012, Red Hook was devastated by the storm surge from Superstorm Sandy. The streets were turned into canals.

Victoria Alexander [:15:21]
And there was no lights on and all of Red Hook 'cause the street lights were out and there was piles of garbage of like pulled out sheet rock that were his, you know, as tall as my house,

Steve Kastenbaum [:15:31]
Victoria's life was turned upside down.

Victoria Alexander [:15:34]
My house flooded really bad and I couldn't live there for six months.

Steve Kastenbaum [:15:38]
The flooding left thousands of people stranded in the dark in their public housing apartments in Red Hook as well. Most were left without electricity for at least two weeks. Many had no heat or hot water.

After Sandy Victoria became more active in the community, she co-founded the Red Hook Business Alliance and became a member of her community board. She's the acting chair of a local advocacy group called Resilient Red Hook. At the same time, Karen advocated for her neighbors in the Red Hook houses. It took many years for the area to recover.

Victoria Alexander [:16:13]
And the neighborhood didn't look much different than it does today.

Steve Kastenbaum [:16:17]
Victoria first started hearing about plans to redevelop the waterfront in Red Hook in 2024.

Victoria Alexander [:16:23]
So before they made any official announcements, we started feeling like there was signaling that was happening. Um, like leases not getting renewed and people getting kicked out at the port. People in the community that were signaling to us that something was gonna happen.

Steve Kastenbaum [:16:38]
Some details about the project sounded appealing

Victoria Alexander [:16:42]
When they used words like Port of the future, I was hopeful.

Steve Kastenbaum [:16:47]
The plan also called for building 6,000 new apartments. Revenue from those units would fund other parts of the project. It's a model that made nearby Brooklyn Bridge Park a reality. But it was a red flag for Victoria.

Victoria Alexander [:17:00]
‘cause that's what rich people want is views of the water and the city and those kind of things.

Steve Kastenbaum:17:05]
She's worried about the impact all that new housing and the new residents will have on the community.

Victoria Alexander [:17:11]
We're not in a housing crisis. We're in an affordable housing crisis. Yeah, we're in affordable housing crisis, but we keep relying on the private sector to fix a problem that they don't wanna address because they're greedy motherfuckers. You know, like they're always just gonna be, make an excuse for, for more. And that's just how the private sector works.

Steve Kastenbaum [:17:27]
Victoria dug into plans for the BMT Mega Project and learned that they were evolving through the state's general project plan process. It meant that the city's typical review process called a U LRP would be sidelined. A GPP can step over some local regulations and zoning,

Victoria Alexander [:17:46]
And I learned that they tried to do it for Amazon when the Amazon headquarters was gonna come to New York. They tried to do a GPP for that, and that got shut down, thankfully. And then I also saw that they had done this in, uh, Atlantic Avenue, um, in the Atlantic Yards.

Steve Kastenbaum [:18:01]
Using the GPP process also avoids some of the opportunities people normally have to weigh in on a large project like this. Victoria looks at other recent developments like the rezoning of the Gowanus Canal neighborhood and sees how the promised community benefits don't always pan out.

Victoria Alexander [:18:20]
Because that's what happens in most deals like this. Like even in Gowanus, they're still trying to get the, some of the affordable housing and the workforce development promises like you have to… This community and the people that support them, like their local elective have to really hold the agencies accountable to do what they're committed to be doing.

Steve Kastenbaum [:18:38]
While over 2000 of the BMTs 6,000 housing units will be designated affordable. Most will still be out of reach for many people in the neighborhood. 200 apartments are supposed to be set aside for residents in the Red Hook houses, Karen's community, and $200 million is supposed to go to those public housing developments for renovations.

Karen Blondel [:19:00]
I'm excited about the project. What I feel very surprised at was how many nonprofits we have who feel it's their right to speak for public housing residents.

Steve Kastenbaum [:19:13]
Karen includes Victoria's organizations among those nonprofits.

(music) [:19:17]

Steve Kastenbaum [:19:19]
The people who developed the plan for the BMT were well aware of the delays, problems and pushback that plagued the Atlantic Yards Project for years. It prompted them to create the Brooklyn Marine Terminal Task Force in September of 2024. 28 people had a seat at the table. Karen was among them.

Karen Blondel [:19:41]
So I'm excited about the opportunity to, um, be at the table. This is a collective.

Steve Kastenbaum [:19:50]
She joined federal, state, and local elected officials, people from the shipping industry and labor unions, environmental justice organizations, and other community representatives. It was their job to collaborate on developing an equitable vision plan.

Karen Blondel [:20:05]
Red Hook still has no amenities. We have a lot of things that we need in this community.

Also, the waterfront. The waterfront is amazing. You know that it's the Statue of Liberty and we wanna liberate this community, especially our young people, to, uh, get acquainted with the water, get acquainted with what it is to be resilient.

Steve Kastenbaum [:20:30]
Like Atlantic Yards, the Brooklyn Marine Terminal is designed to transform an area and turn it into a new destination. It may also vastly alter the community economically and culturally. But a project of this size can be derailed. Anything can happen between now and 2038, the target year for completion. The New York City Economic Development Corporation is overseeing the BMT. Andrew Kimble is president and CEO. I asked him what would happen if the economy went south, like we saw with Atlantic Yards.

Andrew Kimball [:21:05]
Well, look there, there can always be things that come up. Um, it's just the reality. And I think what's a little bit different, um, here is that enormous amount of rigor went into the financial analysis on the front end with, you know, in-depth grilling from these task force members and really them understanding all the inputs, all the assumptions. So look, things can happen, but I'd say another way that this project is unique is the really significant governance measures that we put in place. So the community has a real, um, seat at the table and skin in the game throughout the process.

Steve Kastenbaum [:21:48]
The plan for Atlantic Yards came about in a top down process. This time, Kimball says it was a collaborative effort that took into account the views of many stakeholders.

Andrew Kimball [:21:58]
So it was a year and a half of this task force meeting, you know, many, many, many times for hours on end, getting presentations on various different aspects of the plan, asking hard questions, debating amongst themselves. And that process went on in parallel to an enormous, uh, external public engagement process. Over 4,000 people, um, consulted over that period of time, numerous public meetings, community visioning sessions that informed the views, uh, of the members on the task force.

Steve Kastenbaum [:22:33]
Karen Knows that people who live closer to the piers are concerned about the impact the new apartment buildings and those who will live in them will have on their community.

Karen Blonde [:22:44]
But I always notice that when it comes to people living in public housing versus those who are surrounding the public housing campus. We're usually at odds. We are not in agreement because what's good for them is bad for us, and usually what's bad for us is good for them. You know.

Steve Kastenbaum [:23:02]
One Example: The Ikea. While many of the jobs went to people in the Red Hook houses, other folks in the neighborhood complained about more traffic and the trucks that keep IKEA stocked.

(Sound of street) [23:15]

Steve Kastenbaum [:23;18]
Back on Van Brunt Street.

Victoria Alexander [:23:20]
It's very frustrating.

Steve Kastenbaum [:23:22]
Victoria isn't banking on any of the promises made to Red Hook through the BMT vision plan.

Victoria Alexander [:23:27]
It makes me really angry at the people that voted yes because they knowingly got in bed with people that cannot be trusted.

Steve Kastenbaum [:23:37]
She's talking about the community representatives who were on the BMT task force and voted to approve the plan.

Victoria Alexander [:23:43]
Oh, it'll be different this time. And the people that say, oh, we know better than you. Um, and that's how they're justifying their vote. Oh, this is for the good of Brooklyn. We have to have progress in the name of progress. Right? Um, it's really, really frustrating.

Steve Kastenbaum [:23:57]
While the particulars differ from project to project, opposing views in a community are pretty common. Change always comes at a cost to someone in New York, and most people have an opinion about mega projects like this. It's familiar territory for one guy in Brooklyn.

Marty Markowitz [:24:14]
I think that the results of, um, Atlantic Yards and Barkley Center has been a great success, but it has not been fully realized. I know that.

Steve Kastenbaum [:24:24]
Marty Markowitz was Brooklyn Borough President when the Atlantic Yards Project was unveiled more than 20 years ago. He was at the forefront of the push to make it a reality and was among the speakers at the ribbon cutting Ceremony.

Marty Markowitz [:24:37]
The Barclay Center signals the beginning of a glorious new chapter in Brooklyn's history. In the past, Brooklynites had to leave our burrow for world class entertainment and sports. Ha. Hello? Not anymore. Now with the opening of Barkley Center in our own backyard, we'll be hosting visitors. From all across New York region, America and beyond.

Obviously, uh, it, it's a mixed bag of achievements, so to speak. Uh, uh, dreams not fully realized, but realized in significant ways.

Steve Kastenbaum [:25:14]
It was Marty's idea to draw the nets to Brooklyn by building a basketball arena at Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues. Bruce Ratner then expanded on that dream and came up with the master plan for Atlantic Yards.

Marty Markowitz [:25:28]
It's an amazing, after all those years of litigation, and Developed, Don't Destroy to their credit organized effectively. Uh, they did speak for loads of residents in the, in the, in the area. I'm not questioning that at all, and fought in every possible way. Every possible way. They were heard. They made some, some valid points, uh, and I think the project, uh, turned out better for some of their concerns.

Steve Kastenbaum [:26:01]
As for the fight that's brewing on Brooklyn's waterfront:

Marty Markowitz [:26:04]
You have to involve the public in this. And the earlier the better. The earlier the better. I, I really do believe that there's going to be, and there will be sizable opposition against it. There will be. But eventually you have to move ahead. You have to move ahead. You can't stay in yesterday. You have to, uh, make what are sensible, positive contributions to keep the borough moving. We need the housing, as you know. We need the jobs, we need the development, and eventually you have to try to resolve that.

Steve Kastenbaum [:26:41]
13 years after Marty was at the arena's ribbon cutting ceremony. The rail yard behind it is still an open pit. The promised platform has yet to be built. The current developer has to make good on the remaining affordable apartments.

(sound of street) [:26:56]

Steve Kastenbaum [:26:59]
Patty Hagan looks at it all and thinks about what was lost.

Patti Hagan [:27:04}
This was a really wonderful, neighborly community and these people here and in these tall buildings now, I know maybe one person who has moved in there; They have not become part of the neighborhood and don't become part of the community. They just, they don't. I run the community garden up on, um, St. Mark's Avenue and they don't join the community garden. I don't know, it's just enormously,

Steve Kastenbaum [:27:46]
A few miles away, the Brooklyn Marine Terminal Project has a very long way to go before construction begins. The BMT authority has to be formed to run the project. Surrounding communities will have an opportunity to weigh in during an environmental review. Opponents may take a page out of the Develop, Don't Destroy playbook and file lawsuits and economic forces could impact the vision plan.

(music) [:28:10]

Steve Kastenbaum [:28:02]
Addressing the affordable housing crisis is a priority for the new mayor. Zohran Mamdani has yet to weigh in on this proposal that he'll inherit, but he did vow to speed up housing construction across this city, and it seems like the stars are aligning to make that happen. The city of Yes Rezoning, which Mayor Adams signed into law in 2024, set the stage for up to 80,000 new housing units to be built across New York.

The tension playing out in Red Hook will likely pop up in neighborhoods across the city relatively soon as city planners, real estate developers and Mamdani join forces to meet the demand and build more housing wherever possible. I am Steve Kastenbaum.

This episode was produced at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism. Meg Kramer is our editor, Chad Bernhardt and Amber Watson are our audio engineers. Music was provided by Mega Tracks. Special thanks to Director of Audio journalism, Kalli Anderson. Make sure to follow this podcast series as we continue to explore the issues around housing, zoning, affordability, and economic development in New York. Thanks for listening.

(music ends) [30:00]