Money matters. I wish that I've been taught when I was at school. I'm an investor, a business owner, and a money educator

understand it better. Compound

international budget investment to recover from debt. No one explained to me, put your money to your work is about normalising the conversation you Hey everybody, welcome back to the Money Mechanics Podcast. I'm super excited today because we're joined by Paul Lamphere, and Paul is someone I followed online for a very long time, and we met an event in Leeds. I feel like it was Leeds, but maybe not Leeds, it was Leeds. Yeah, a little while back, and it was lovely to meet him after seeing him online for many, many years. Paul is a speaker, entrepreneur, investor, developer. Started life as a barrister, worked in that in the legal space within commercial, financial law, this sort of stuff, and has moved on to become an award winning property developer. He hosts a podcast, property and investor podcast. He hosts a networking event in Leeds as well, which I'm sure to tell us a little bit more about. Paul. Thank you so much for being here and giving your time today. Really excited. I'm genuinely thrilled to be here because we met in Leeds at my friend Mo's at networking, because I had literally just finished your book. And I read, you know, I crank through the books as best as best I can. And I particularly like finance books. I'm a bit obsessed.

I've probably read most of the most finance books in the UK that are available in one form or another. And I read yours, and if it was a cracking book. So I'll get that out of the way. First of all, for you, Sarah,

genuinely good book.

It's really interesting. It's a very empowering book as well. So kudos to you for writing it. Thank you very much. Would say that everybody should read it. What's interesting is you do it in your own voice, and that's interesting. Little bit of swearing in there. I noticed little bit of swearing. So would you don't normally get in finance books. So people will either find that, as I did, refreshing because it's someone's authentic voice, or they won't. But like, that's up to them. Well, this definitely happens. I I have people message me to say, You can't be like this and be successful in the finance world. And they're like, Well, I'm already successful in the finance world, so thanks for your feedback, but also it helped me to

I can be myself and talk about things in the way that I understand them. And I think one of the things a lot of people say to me is, because I I present it and I talk about and I write it, how I speak actually, just normal people from a normal background seem to connect with it quite well, rather than feeling like they need a finance degree to understand it. So appreciate that very lovely feedback. Thank you very much. So Paul, tell us a little bit about you.

So I was born in the West Country. My parents are teachers. I'm very, very fortunate that they're both still alive. Currently,

they are like very working class. So my dad was

brought up in a place in the Northeast, and he It's that place right now is unbelievable. It's really transformed when he was brought up there. He describes it, and these are his words, not mine. He said it was basically a slum. You know, he had rats running through his house, just chronic, chronic poverty.

And my mum was brought up in Sheffield, and her dad worked in the steel industry. Died the day he retired. I suspect he desired died of an industrial disease because he complained of having a headache for most of his adult life. I never met him, obviously, before I was born. So,

so I said that that, I think that sets a little bit of context where I came from and without, like, getting into therapy and over sharing. Like, there were periods

of, like, what I describe as volatility in our household as I grew up, and I think that probably led to a few behaviours on my part. So I was not a great student at school. I am dyslexic, but I'm also taking responsibility as well for my own educational outcomes in that I was very easily distracted, you know, drug sex and rock and roll. I wanted to be a rock star. That was the plan. I wanted to be the guitarist in

Metallica, right? You do play the guitar, but absolutely no freaking talent whatsoever. That was never gonna happen. But I gave it a good go for a few years, and then,

because my parents were teachers, their orientation is, understandably and rightly towards education. So they, they, God bless them, did the best they could keep me in the educational system. So they were, you know, like Paul, we love the band. I.

Idea, great idea. But why don't you just try and squeak out a few A levels, like just the trial, you know, see how you go. By this point, I hadn't passed my English, exact English language exam. I couldn't pass it. I was told to give up on it, which I did. I still don't have it now, you know, almost 50 and all the rest of it,

but I had a few friends, not bad, bad people, but they they managed to get themselves in a little bit of trouble. They were just bad lads, but they were just stupid and immature. But they would find themselves, you know, other people's garages and then all kinds of things like that, and they'd get themselves in trouble, yeah. And occasionally, like I, would be around them or with them, when a police car would rock up to them and put down the window and just have the chat, you know. And it was the way that perhaps things used to happen back then as well. Put the window down, they'd have the chat, and it would always go a little bit of pear shaped. And I'd be walking home with them later, I'd say, Do you realise the way you talk to that police officer is the reason that that escalated, and they could never get it, and I noticed there was a big difference with the way that I was able to communicate with the police officers, and they were that dictated very different outcomes for the entire group. I could just dial it down for everybody, and we could just all get on with our lives. So that inspired me to become a lawyer. So I then actually started doing some work, worked really hard and got, eventually, got a first class honours degree in law, got the highest award in my year, won all the prizes.

Totally transformed the trajectory of my life, slightly inspired by a mate called Eddie who

told me to give up. He here. He was from Brian. He was really cool. I met him on the first day of uni, and he said, Paul, your parents are teachers. They're from the north of England. You have no money, you are broke. You want to give up now, mate, because you're wasting your time. And I was so irritated by by this, are we allowed to swear on the podcast? Swear on the podcast? Yeah, fuck Eddie.

Who do you think you are? And he's a mate of mine, so I'm not, I don't not hating on him. But I was so irritated by someone telling me what I couldn't do that, you know, I became a bit obsessed, and that has stuck with me. And I noticed that a lot about people in all kinds of different walks of life, you can very often get back to a point where, you know, there was that one conversation, you know, and they just, whether it's a man or woman, they're just it. That was the thing that was just too much. It's often why people Jack. My French teacher is my version of that. My Mrs. Oakley was her name. I don't know if she's even still alive now, but

she told me I would never amount to anything.

Okay, a very short interruption of the episodes. I want you to get back to listening. I just wanted to remind you that the Money Mechanics weekly newsletter is completely free and we'll send this out to you every week. All you've got to do is find the link in the show notes and get signed up when we send this out to you, this weekly newsletter is going to include things that will help you to become a better money mechanic. It could be things like what's happening in the markets, things like budgets, how that's going to impact you. And I'm also going to share a lot of insight into what I'm doing in my own portfolio and in the portfolios of the guests we've got on the podcast, to really just help you understand what you could do differently to make your money work as best as it can for you, make sure you go and find that link and get signed up.

Never, never amount to anything, because I was too loud and I was highly distractible, and I didn't sit still and pay attention like the good, good kids did. So I would never amount to anything. So, yeah, that's

interesting. We could turn this to film therapy session. So now, internally, how do you feel about that? Are you kind of all Zen and at one with that, or is that still, I'm very grateful to actually, because I think it gave me quite a lot of fire to do stuff. And there's been other people in my life. That's the one I can come back to, like in my teenage years, but she was my French teacher, and I got my highest GCSE grade. I got a B in French, and she marked, she predicted me a you. So she predicted I was getting a grade, and I got a B. And I think from that point onwards, everything she'd said up to that point I was dismissed it because I was like, Well, you were wrong, so I'm actually going to be fine. And I think that helped me. So yeah, I think everybody, most successful people that I know have got some sort of point in time that they can pin the drive or the fire or, you know, something back to, and it's often a conversation like that that was just flippantly commented that has created something, I think, as well. If you look at, if we looked at, just spend a second like looking at.

That behaviour like, what an S, what an obscene thing to say to a child. Yeah. So then my question, my question, the kind of conversation I would have with myself is, then, What must a person's life be like if, if that's how they express themselves in the universe, if that's how they feel about the universe? I mean, I've had people say, do and say ridiculous things to me over the years, like in business, to this day, I don't understand why people behave sometimes the way they do, particularly around money. I processed it is, you know, it

is about them and the experience they're having and the beliefs that they have, and no, no, like enlightened, positive, healthy, happy human being behaves no in a negative way to another human being. It is always a human being who is suffering in some way. This is really interesting, like the and I think when I so sort of 2018 19, when I started to speak a lot more on stages. And you may have well been through this. In fact, I'm sure you will have been, and I started to get quite a lot of heat from the internet keyboard warriors telling me, you know, there's no money in property. It's a scam, all the things that we hear. And there's been experiences during that time where people

have disagreed with me, like an economic level, like what I think we vote differently, politically with different, etc, but the way people behave around that, especially where the conversation is around money, it very often ends up being A very personal attack, and I'm often curious like that, what is happening in your world, that you're at a point of unhappiness or dissatisfaction in your world, that the only way you can handle this conversation is to

call me fat or say I've got shit teeth. I think I've got great teeth. So I'm not sure what that was it, but those sorts of things, you know,

the level of dissatisfaction in someone's life to behave like that as a standard is mad to me. I don't know how human beings end up in that place. It's so alien to me because it's just not something I would ever do.

But you're right, when you kind of really think about it, is so much more about other people. I think this, one of the conversations I've been having recently is around why the people around us, generally, when you're trying to do something different, like start a business or invest buy bitcoin, like these sorts of things, why the people around us often uneducatedly Say, don't do that. That's a big risk. And it's often, I say to people, it's always more about them than it is about you, because people will only be able to react to a situation in a way that they know how to react, that physically able to react. They can only give you what they've got. And actually, we we still have to kind of strive to step away from it and not let it impact us as much. But it's hard, and we all have very different frameworks, don't we? I mean, I, I try and attempt to

be compassionate in my view of all things, and sometimes that's difficult. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm as limited as everybody else on this, Ryan approach things like, what is the most compassionate view I can have of this, and a little mantra I have, particularly with like close friends who see the world very differently to me. You know, over the last 20 years, we've grown in very different directions, which is cool, and we're still friends, and we can still enjoy music together. And you know, is that I my kind of mantra, is that this is a human being who is doing the best they possibly can with the information they have, and and we just have a different view, and what is it that I can learn from them? And,

you know, on a personal level, avoid being antagonistic, you know, because I have strong opinions about all kinds of things, as my daughter tells me, the

world doesn't need to know them every day of the week. No, exactly that. One of my best friends in the world, Claire, her and I, are completely different politically. We vote opposite. We agree on very different things. I very much sit in a capitalist world. She sits very much in the socialist world. And what's really interesting about that is that we can sit and have a bottle of wine, and we can talk and debate and discuss and like learn from each other, and even though we don't agree, it's never conflict, ever. And I think that comes out of the mutual respect that we have for each other and the friendship of, you know, decades long friendship, but also is that we're both happy to learn from each other, and I think that's a really important especially like when you're starting to surround yourself with people that are slightly different to who you are or what you're growing into, being able to maintain those relationships without having to.

Conflict all the time, quite important. It's really valuable. I find it really valuable. Actually, I would say, I would say it's it's more than valuable. It is essential. So I think that this ability to communicate with people that you, on one level, disagree with is like a very high order function. I think it's also, I suppose to pay you and your friend a compliment on this, is that it's a sign of people who've done the inner work. Because I think people who've done the inner work, they don't need to agree with people on every everything, and they also don't need people to agree with them anymore, like they just don't. They get, people get to a point when they've done enough work on themselves. It's like, if you don't agree with me, that that's okay.

And also, if you look at like, where we are in the world now, we live in a really, really polarised world. We do. You know,

I find it shocking how polarised we are, dangerously polarised. Actually, I think polarised. But the answer, and this has been articulated by a much wiser person than me, the great Ray Dalio.

In his, you know, books and his teachings and his talk talks, it just doesn't matter of common sense, he says, Look, we just have to reclaim the middle ground. What we need is, is the people to move to who can, who are able to it, can move towards each other and reclaim this middle ground so that we can solve the problems. Because the truth is, the most polarised people on either side, we can't ever bring them back now, but like the smart people can kind of meet in the middle and say, Well, look, let's try and find a solution to this. So for example, and I say this is somebody who you know has a long history in real estate and has, you know, a lot of financial interest on that side, as a matter of common sense. Do I think it would make sense for us, over a period of time, to demonetize UK real estate so that young people can buy houses, you know, if they want to have a family, they can afford to buy a family home. Do I think that that is a good and beneficial thing? I believe it with every fibre of my body, you know, I think people should be able to, if they wish to choose to buy properties, it should be accessible to them. There should be a great supply of them. Does that mean that, therefore, you know, parts of the property industry will have to evolve and change, yes, but, you know, we've got to find a way of working together to make this work. You know, yeah, because at the minute, everyone just seems to be fighting about, like the, you know, I think as well with one

of the with AI coming, like, very much, onto the scene. Let's say, Yeah, we're starting to see, or, I think again, opinion, but I think we're going to start to see the groups of people potentially pushing further apart, where we've got kind of the top 1% and we've got poverty, and at the moment, we've got a very big middle class. I think the introduction of AI and the way that people are investing, and what's able to happen at Pace now is going to push these two spaces separately. I think we're going to see a reduction in the middle class. And actually you are going to sit very much in one side or the other. And that is a bit scary, actually, I think for most

people, I think we've seen the beginning of that

as we were coming out of covid, you know, it was really fascinating, like the Great, the Great, the great, you know, some of the greatest investors on Facebook planet, like Stanley drummilla, you know, who stand to make billions From the way that, you know, the recovery was structured. You know, they were coming straight out of the gate and saying, This is great for me, you know, I I'm going to win all day long. But this is so bad for society. Society about what's going to happen next, in a case shape recovery, asset owners will be fine, those on fixed incomes and have no assets like it. Very, very bad, and all of that played out, and it was and,

you know, we see in the press think the word unprecedented or unexpected,

like, I'm sorry, but it's just not true, not true. There are voices you can listen to that are telling you from day one, this is what normally happens in this situation, like not not other things repeat, but there are echoes of the past. So if you do this, you're likely to get inflation. Assets will go up. It will cripple these people. These people be really rich, then everybody will get very unhappy about it, quite rightly so because of inequality. In terms of the AI piece, I agree with you. I think there are real benefits of it that are going to are going to be so incredible. So for example,

I mean, I'm permanently optimistic, so apologies in advance, Sarah, but I think the world is a beautiful place, and I think it's going to wonderful things. And if someone needs convincing of that,

there's a guy called Professor Steve.

And Pinker, who wrote a book called enlightenment now, and he went through data through the whole of history, and he makes this really compelling case as to, I know things look a bit bleak, but if you look at the data, the data tells you that it's the best time in living history ever to be alive like it's never, ever been better. For example, infant mortality, the number of people actually killed in wars like the actual data is remarkable, but I appreciate right now feels pretty terrible. But in terms of the AI piece, you look at health, the way that healthcare is developing now, I mean, it is unbelievable. You can an article recently about how

AI integration with, like, reading of blood tests can now diagnose cancer at stage one from a blood test. Like, wow, yeah. And

you could, like, add doctors, like, like, everybody is going to become what I call enhanced humans. You know, we're going to be human plus, because they will be able to put results through AI and AI will see things.

And also, you know, they can't read every paper that's ever been published on the face of the planet,

you know. So we're kind of there now, in a way, if you think about how great healthcare is like, my dad was rushed to hospital the other day. He's got various conditions that are wrong with him, so my mum phoned me and was like, middle of the night, I think, like, this, is it, you know, cool. I'll drive down. Drive down. He was in hospital for 24 hours, and he went from being a really critical condition to standing up and walking out of the hospital. And it was like, 20 years ago he would have been dead, like, wouldn't have made it to the hospital, but in 24 hours, the cocktail of medication they gave him

just got him up and running. And like, he's in his 80s. And the other thing on the AI piece is,

I think that, and I know

this sounds a bit cliche, but it's about embracing, embracing it. So I was, I am part of a business angels investing group, and I was there with them yesterday. And it's so fascinating, because about two thirds of the room at use AI every single day. And then there's like a third of the room who are refusing to engage with it. And the reason they're refusing to engage with it, like being completely blunt, is they just don't need to, because they've told multiple businesses that they they are in a chapter of their lives where they're just going to enjoy the good, good times. They don't need to do it. But I think the rest of us will. I think also the antidote, AI,

is things that you do and I do, which is, for example, we host retreats, says that human contact, human connection in that like if, if I, if I had to say, what will be the single human back? Single most powerful feature of human being, if you imagine a human being as a piece of technology, is the ability to connect with human beings on a meaningful level, an emotional level, 100%

and that's why retreats are so fabulous, because they take people out their day to day lives. And my retreats, we can't ban phones,

and it allows people to

reconnect on that level and take their relationships that bit deeper. Yeah, so that's my retreats. I always

Why should I come on a retreat? And I say it's really hard to articulate what happens on a retreat until you've been on a retreat, and because you can't really, there's not really the words for the level of transformation that happens on a retreat, the level of connection that happens, the deep work that's happening without even realising that it's happening. And like, we've just got back from Ibiza recently, and honestly, the people around that table just incredible. The work that was done, like the business plans that have been written, like all of it was just insanely good. And I think that human connection is such an important thing, so relation

to retreat. So if anybody is ever thinking about going to retreats, whether it's Sarah's, mine, anyone else's, I'll give you the absolute top tip. And this will sound a bit Woo, woo, okay.

Is have an intention. So pre programme, what it is you want to get? I once had somebody reach out to me who'd never been to retreat, and they said, Paul, I'm really nervous about coming to your retreat. Kind of don't want to come.

Well.

What do you think? And I said, look,

think about two things. One, think about who you want to be when you show up. Who do you want to be, who do you want to present to this group? Two, because you want to be present your best self, basically. And then two, think about if there was any outcome you could possibly get, what would it be? And it and you just go to town like, just make it up. And I think that of most things, I know that's a bit woo, woo. But I think if you go in with an entire secret here people, there's crystals on my desk and everything, so don't worry about that.

And I've gone to retreats. And I went to retreat, I lost forced down in the following year, I've gone to retreat and completely transformed the way I feel about things anyway, enough for a retreat. Everyone should go on a retreat, mostly mine, and pause because they're the best. So let's talk a little bit more about like money and investing and wealth and things like that. So do you think everybody should want to be wealthy? Yeah, I think it is absolutely fundamental.

I um,

pillar of life. So

the framework that I have for this and this, this, this came out of covid, really, because when covid happened, it looked like it was the worst thing that was ever going to happen to humanity. And really smart voices were actually saying, Do you know what this actually could be? The thing you know, really smart, level headed voices, not like ridiculous Facebook influencers, but really smart people saying, Actually, let's pay attention, because this could be quite serious. And I did loads of research when we had a bit of time in our hands

about what actually happens when there is a crisis, a genuine crisis. And one of the interesting things I learned is that different societies behave very, very differently. Some societies, when exactly the same crisis, can happen to two communities. One will band around, gather together, look after the tribe. All is well, and they actually flourish, and they actually come out a bit stronger. Other tribes turn against themselves, ends in violence. And that process is normally quite quick as well. And there's lots of reasons for that,

cultural reasons, the store, the stories and the way that culture communities communicate within themselves, all kinds of

things. So then it's like, well, what is the

what is the key? We all want to be prosperous. So wealth, I think, is a bit loaded for some people. So if we just say, everybody wants to prosper, they want to do well. They want to see their friends do well. They want to see their community work do well. They want to see everybody in truth. They want to see everybody to do well. And the key to prosperity turns out, I think, to be this concept of resilience that we've harnessed the key human needs. Let's say there's eight of them. We've harnessed them in such a way that we've built in redundancy, so if one thing begins to fail in our lives, another part will kind of pick up the strength. And you see that in the animal kingdom, you know, like a grizzly bear would love to be eating salmon every day, but in the winter months, you know, there is always a season for that. So maybe they'll have to eat roots, which doesn't sound very exciting, but, you know, it's an alternative. So that's an example of redundancy, one of I think the key human needs is the financial need. And I think that it is absolutely fundamental, because what is the truth wealth?

Financial assets, finance gives you wealth. Wealth is a much bigger concept, as you well know, to other than just money, it's a big, big concept. We can dive into that,

but one that the key thing that wealth gives you is security. And security is an absolutely fundamental need. And I look back now to why I became a lawyer.

I, you know, this is a reflection that, you know, was a long time in the making, is

it wasn't the reason was not what I thought it would be. Like, a very trivial kind of thing is, like, I wanted the suit, and I wanted money, and I wanted all of the rest of it, and maybe wanted the bit the status and that kind of thing. I think as I've grown older, I realised what I was really craving at that stage in my life, as I wanted security, I'd come off like quite a challenging period in my my youth, where I felt, you know, because of what was going on, I felt pretty insecure and didn't feel like had the stability that maybe I needed at that point in my life. So when I,

you know, I had that realisation that I think a lot of young adults have, which is, you know, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable even now, to articulate, to be honest with you, is you are kind of on your own.

You're in charge. You.

You're gonna have to do this, mate, like you're gonna have to do this on your own,

and there's no one coming to the rescue, so don't worry about that.

And I was craving that security. So one way, the primary way, to get security is to have money. Because if you don't have money, you can never have security. And I don't want to burst anybody's bubble or, like, ruin any fairy tales, but you have to have a strong financial base, because whilst it's not the most important of the eight human needs, it's the only one that you can basically exchange for all the others you know. Whereas, if you have all of the others, life is major. It's particularly challenging. It's so interesting, because obviously, people, I didn't grow up with a lot of money, you know, I fairly standard growing up. And I remember being like, around people growing up into my teenage years. I mean, I left home at 17, so like, from like, 17 to into my 20s, I was around a lot of, like, friends. I wasn't really around. Was not living at home, so I had a job, and all the things I started, like, a whole new version, new chapter. And I remember then people saying, you know,

money's not everything. And I've always been very driven, right? I've always had, like, entrepreneurial drive in me. I've always wanted to earn money and find ways of doing it. And even at school, I was like, buying and selling stuff. And like, I've always had that, and people around me have always said, Yeah, but money's not everything. Like, like, just make sure you enjoy life a little bit, because money's not everything. But I think that you know, should everybody want to be wealthy? What you've just said there is, I 100% agree with, without a financial base that can support you in any eventuality, you can't feel secure, you can feel happy, you can feel confident, you can feel all of those things, but through security, like if the shit hits the fan, am I going to be all right without money? Actually, it? The answer is no. Because without being able to pay your mortgage or your rent or your bills, you lose your house without being able to put petrol in the car, you lose your job because you can't get to work like then actually, there's this really basic need. And whilst money, you know, money, doesn't buy happiness, there's lots of I know lots of people have got a lot more money than I've got, maybe you've got who are also very unhappy people. But the security, and that fundamental basis of security in life, I think, is such an important one if you want to be able to make space for happiness and confidence and enjoyment and fulfilment and satisfaction and those things, having that security ticked off allows the space for those other things. I would go even further than that and say, You cannot be free unless you have handled the financial aspect of your life. Everybody's financial expectations is different, like, what people need to be secure in their world be different, like, for some people, it's 100 grand a month. For other people, it's three grand a month. But you know, ultimately, if we've got the if we know we've got enough,

it feels life feels very different than when, I mean, I remember not having enough to be able to function even, and it felt very stressful. Always, there was always in the back of my mind questions about money, can I afford it? Should I do this? Like, can I choose it? It's just not a nice headspace, definitely. And that, you know, we've all, you know, everybody rolls rides. Most of us ride the roller coaster, you know, because, you know, assuming you know, you've not been bestowed a trust fund

of life. You know whether it's and obviously it's very transparent in entrepreneurship, but like having a job is really tough as well. You know, you know policies get dictated to you, which you may or may not agree with. You know you have to follow trivial and often pointless rules. Very, very stressful having a job, you know, it's not fun a lot of the time. And so, you know, often it's glamorised that, you know, entrepreneurs, they ride the roller coaster. I think every human being is riding the roller coaster, you know.

And,

you know, that's why I think, I mean, I'm orientated towards freedom for a lot of reasons, but I think you can't be free unless you have your finances handled, and then you tend to pass, as well as attendance to other parts of your life. And just to, like, drill down on that really important point that you made. You know, I know people living in paradise who are effectively living in hell. You know, it doesn't make a difference. A difference once that part of your life is attended to, which can be a very modest amount of money,

if you then engineer, you know, use your money mechanics

understanding to engineer your life.

In such a way you can have a life of freedom, peace and love, and, you know, on a much smaller amount of money than, you know, Facebook would have you believe, fire movement, for example. And there's lots of things I don't, you know, financially independent, which are already, yeah, you know, in theory of tired in my early 40s, my late 30s. Remember what it was. There's much I could criticise the fire movement for,

because I do think you need to live a life. But I also think if you want to be a free human being, the first step, and I mean you talk about this is if you can just control your spending, first step, you can earn a reasonably modest amount of money, and you can be a spiritually free human being, particularly then where, you know, again, thinking about your book, get rid of that expensive debt, get get some to get a cash buffer in place. Begin to, like, edge into the marketplace, but you know, not kind of getting over the front of your skis. You like life. You talked about the feeling that there is a very difficult feeling. I would say the economic stress is the one of the worst experiences that a human being can ever experience. And I can,

I have various points in my life I've felt that economic stress, and there is literally nothing worse,

because it is just, you know, there'll be people listening to this, like whilst I sit here now, financially Okay, and pause this in now, financially okay. You know, actually, it's a decade this week since I started my business. So 10 years ago this week, I was still in 60,000 pounds of debt, really struggling to make it all make sense. And I started my business out of a desperate need to want to fix it, because I couldn't see my life continuing like that anymore. I was like, You know what? Fuck it. I can't do it anymore. We've got to do something different. And, you know, but that emotion, that memory, that feeling of not knowing which Bill to open because I knew I couldn't pay them all, so I had to just pick the one that I could afford. It's still very present. And to be honest, if I'm very transparent about it, it's probably still and I probably need to do some work on this, but it's probably still one of my greatest fears, like I will not ever go back there and, you know, so then I am so intentional with my money now, because

if I'm not, the risk to me is too great, the feeling of that, I just don't ever want that back in my life, and once you've come away from it. So then the fear of going back to it is actually quite awful. It's quite it can be a positive driver, and it drives me to carry on doing things when things are really tough. But, you know, it wasn't that long ago, and things can change very quickly as well, if you just tackle your money in very simple ways, 100% and it's, it's fascinating, you know, I used to hang around a couple of guys who used to, he used to say things like, you know, they were really in that space of, you know, if I lose all my money, you know, it'd be great, and I would just start again, and, you know,

and I, you know, I had, like, a two word response for that. It'd be like, jog on, because I don't feel like that. You know, I don't feel like that. I think you know, especially when you've got responsibilities, there's obligation to others as well. But I would say, Sarah, that

is this wise or not, I would not lose that feeling that you have. So I, a few years ago now, had a mentor

who it became apparent that he had lost complete touch with the realities of what average human beings go through.

And to me, to me, I found a very difficult mentor to work with, because he had no understanding of what it's like for humans to walk the planet in this day and age, because he'd been so rich for so long,

and this is definitely not true of all wealthy people, but it had chipped away at His humanity,

and it came out in like, trivial ways, but one, he spoke very unkindly about people

poor, like people without money, which just jarred with me, like, from day one and then, like,

it's their fault, and that everyone's got the same opportunity, and they should work hard,

being mocking.

And when, like, the covid, the sort of thing he would say in the kind of, you know, when the covid thing happened was, you know, they just need to buy less coffee. And it's like, mate, like, there isn't, that isn't what they need to do. Like, no, this is not about their Starbucks habit. These people don't. Probably.

Both Starbucks. So I think the fact that you feel that

makes you a good mentor, and I feel very connected to it. I'm also the father of daughter, so that focuses my mind in a very different way than perhaps before. So I have opinions about

women being financially independent from from day one, and never losing their financial independence. And obviously,

and you talk about that in the book, that women are effectively behind the curve for historical reasons, and you explain that really well in the book. So I suppose that's a long way of saying I wouldn't, like, probably a wiser person would say, Yeah, you should probably get some therapy on that, Sarah, and get that all streamed out. I'm like, hang on to the pain, keep the normal stuff.

So Paul, let me ask you if you were somebody who is where I was 10 years ago, or is currently in the market who is just about keeping their head above water. They've got them carrying debt. They're paying their bills, but it's fucking hard right now.

What

other than budgeting and being sensible with the way you use your money, not sticking your head in the sand, and like addressing it, being intentional? What do you think are the opportunities that present at the moment to people who are like, just getting started with investment, not people that have got 10 grand, 20 grand, 50 grand, but people who want to, you know, are starting with a tiny bit, but just want to start moving in that direction. What opportunities are out there right now. Do you think, can I just, like, I suppose, step back and give like, a bigger picture on that, and then get so I think, like, if I look at like, where I said, the way that I progressed is that

I wanted to go and do my like, bar training, but I was completely broke, and I did research into how a broke person can get money to do to do this next part of the training. So I thought it'd be what you know. I believed it was a worthy investment in my future. And turns out, there was free money available. There was a charity that I qualified for that would give me an interest free loan in order to do my training. So that's an interesting starting point. Is like, what resources are out there for someone like you? So in my case, because, you know, didn't have anything, anything, this wonderful charity lent me the money to my bar exams, and then

I rightly screwed it up. Screwed it up because on my first day at work, I was paid more than my dad had ever been paid in his life, and it just didn't make any fucking sense. It was like my dad's worked hard all of his life. How is it I can get a job in the city of London, and I was making more my first day, when I knew frickin nothing than he did the day he retired. Makes no sense. The world doesn't make sense. So there's a lesson in there and in there as well, isn't there? The world is deeply unfair. It is about where you position yourself. There are things that are more creative in value, that make you more money than others, and if you are, if you wish to prioritise financial aspects of things, you need to think about what paths reward you more. And yes, it's unfair, and it shouldn't be like that.

And there are, you know,

things will have to change, won't they, but so Also think about, think about that, and then it's interesting. You mentioned the budgeting and stuff, but I don't want you to dismiss that. That's a really important skill. So I I couldn't make my repayments on this loan, right? So I had to go back to the guy who

gave me the loan, and he, the last time I saw him, he'd interviewed me, and obviously he'd seen a lot of promise in me, and I was kind of going about back with my kind of tail between my legs, you know, qualified. I got my first I'd got a job, you know, really good job, but I was just not able to make this first payment, which is ridiculous, because I was earning a fortune. Well, I was, wasn't, you know, asking to defer these payments. And he said, Paul, how do we find ourselves here? And he came this, he was like a Jewish guy. He was this law firm, mahogany desk, and all the rest of us, why? How have we found ourselves here? He said, I earn all these this money, but I'm just not. It's just not making sense, like I'm not have nothing left. And he was like, Well, come back next week with with your budget, and we'll go through a budget. And I was like, What's a budget? What's a budget? And I had no idea, because no one ever talked to me about that. The money came in on payday and it'd gone the next day. You know? It was wild, which is what happens to so many people.

I'm like, you know, I was like, credit carding it. So my credit card was even though all this money was coming in, my credit card balance every month was actually getting bigger. I was only hitting the minimum payment, and sometimes I'm not sure I was hitting the minimum payment. And he sat me down. He's the first person who ever I'd ever met who could talk to me about money. And it's wild, like he was the first human being I was 21 and it was the first adult who had ever sat me down and said, Okay, Paul, you don't get this. I'm going to do this with you. And he wasn't a parent, he wasn't a friend, he wasn't a relative. He was like some nice person who had kind of taken pity on me, and he sorted me out.

And, you know, I learned a lot about money. I also had a personal back in those days, personal bank manager, which is interesting. Don't have them nowadays, call me in and tell me off. He would call me in and he'd say, look, Paul, your salary is amazing. You want to be doing great, my friend, but you know, you're spending it every month, you know. And I've seen this before, Paul, you need to steady the ship and you know. And it was great, you know. And I'm blessed to have those mentors and those people to start getting them on the street. And then I did, I, like a lot of people,

racked up a lot of debt through education, all the rest of it, the equivalent now would be probably like 100 grand if in inflation adjusted terms. And I didn't do this by intention, I have to say, because it was awful. But I was quite fortunate in a way, in that I got very seriously injured in a motorbike crash. I had a guy do a hit and run. He knocked me off my motorbike. I was in, like, absolutely smash to pieces. But that paid off a lot of the debt. We paid off all of the debt that I was in. I gave my parents some money. I gave my brother some money,

and so not wishing people that upon people just being candid about, yeah, that's the part. So bring us to the area now. Where would I start now? I would,

don't buy a house, don't buy a flat, rent. It's a bad investment.

There's not financial advice. But I think if you're, if you're young and you haven't, you know, you're not yet thinking about family or stuff like that. Renting gives you a lot of optionality, and money wise, it's probably the smart decision. When I first did my podcast, I interviewed, you know, some really Uber, Uber wealthy guys, and they all told me that they they rented even to this day, you know. And these guys are worth multiple, multiple six figures, seven figures.

Because, if you're smart, you could use what would have been investment capital for a flat, and you can, if you've given it, give it a decade, you can

hundreds of percent worth of return if you handle it carefully. So one is, I wouldn't buy the narrative of of of putting every penny that you've ever got into something where you say British narrative. That isn't it. Because when I speak to friends in other parts of the world, the buying a house as soon as you can isn't what they're kind of geared towards. But I know for me, growing up, it was like, get a good job, buy a house, settle down, get married, have a career, retire like that. Was all the things we've done.

I was given is get a job, get flat, you know, get someone to live and look, let's not knock it. It's not been a bad a bad part. I've made money from property. It's been great. But right now is a different market to them. I think the world's a very different place now, you know, I think about the kind of the conversations that I have, you know, here at home and, you know, with friends and their kids, it's like, don't rush, rush to buy real estate. You don't need to

be of service. You know, just find

when you're cash flow negative or you're break even, that is not the time to swing for the fences with this brilliant idea that you've got.

The key is to be of service. Find somebody who is in flow, who is economically productive, who's making a profit, and then see if there's anything you can do to assist them get better better. So, you know, there was at one point where my legal career was just hurtling along at such a big, good rate, and you know, it was just amazing, like, and I didn't understand what was going on. So I thought I plucked up the courage and I went to see my boss, and I said, like, can I just ask you a question? He's like, Yeah, of course you can, Paul, just, can I just check? Like, this looks like it's going really well. He goes, Yeah, this is going really well. I said, Do you mind me asking why it's going really why you think? And he goes, it's because, Paul, you're a safe pair of hands.

Us. We can give you stuff. You get it done on time. You're you know, you're on time. You look good. Do what you say you're gonna do. You're on the mission. You know, you do what you say you're gonna do. We can trust you like you don't ever let us down. You turn up. This is what we need, that he's basically saying. The truth is, that's what we need. We need people who are a safe pair of hands, pull that's what you currently are. That's the mission, like that. Just do that so and I that stuck with me ever, ever since. And I, I would say, Be of service, and, and, and be a safe pair of hands. If I look around at you know, the people that I work with, they are all a safe pair of hands. Someone asked me to write them a reference this week, and the key part of the reference was if, if this woman tells you she's going to do something, you can guarantee that she's going to do it. And that's true of all the people that I have the privilege to work with. Is I can close my eyes and I know I I could disappear for a month, let's hadn't say an accident, and they would look after my interests so well. And they might shout at me when I came back and said, Oh, you left. We couldn't find that. But, you know, they would look after my interest in the rules, safe pair of hands, which is why, why I work with them. And I say that in the context of, obviously, in my legal career, you know, the person next door was a rocket scientist. They were the smartest human being on the face of the planet, and that isn't me, but I was a safe pair of hands. So be, find somebody in flow,

find work, try and get an opportunity with that person, and just be of service, and then be that safe pair of hands. Do what you say you're going to do, show up every day, even if you know you're in a difficult place. You look the part, try and sound the part, show up, do the work, and all be well. This is so interesting because we, I talked about this a lot recently with a friend of mine, and we, we

were having conversation, because

I can't quite remember how it has come about, but the conversation has come around. There was a person who had said that they weren't willing to do some work for like five pounds an hour,

even though the work would have given them an opportunity into basically a long term opportunity. Instead of doing the short term it was basically like a fixed price job for something, and they anticipated it would take them X number of hours. And it worked out they'd calculate that it would be five pounds an hour to do this project.

But the long term opportunity off the back of it would have been substantial, but they weren't willing to work for five pounds an hour. And they they kind of got stuck at the five pounds an hour as the measure of the value of it. And we were talking about this, and I was saying, how many times I remember working for free? So many times I would just say, How can I be helpful? And even now, I do it like if we've got events that are near me, or, you know, people, I've got a friend who's speaking at an event in January, and he's got an exhibition stand, and I said to him, Look, I'll just come and be on his stand for you. I'll be a pair of hands. I'll just be helpful. I'll get to talk to people. I'll get to spend some time with you. I'll just work for you for free. And you know, I'm I'm successful. I've got my own businesses. I have an hourly rate, which is high in my business, even still, now I will work for free, because I see the opportunity that sits on the other side of that. And when we were having this conversation, my friend was also saying to me that the number of and it's not only young people, either. I don't want to beat up the young people up here, because actually there's people that are my age and older, who still haven't quite grasped this concept, is that sometimes being of service and doing something without expectation of payment or anything in return opens the best doors.

And I've definitely lived that in my life. Is that something that you would agree with, I would agree with it, and go even further and say that it's kind of the purpose of life, and it's part and I think people, we are all striving to be happy. I think happiness is a very complex subject actually. You know, people don't allow themselves to be happy. So a word that I replace because it's easier for people to feel fulfilled. Because people are less charged with that word, people are more receptive to it. So I think fulfilment comes from being of service. And obviously, in the world that we work, we do it for exchange of value, that we create a lot of value. The value exceeds what people think their money is worth, and they transfer the money to us because they're getting really good value. And, you know, that's a big,

long standing client, friend, and now a very close friend, you know, he says to me, Paul, what you're, what you're really good at, is, you know, you under price. You know.

Whenever I do stuff with you, I always know that I'm going to get so much value that it's like, I kind of feel a bit naughty paying you what you've asked for, because I know I'm going to rock up and going to do this amazing thing, and I'm going to get so much value. And it's like, that mate, like, that's not an accident, that that is the pot that's built into the engineering is that you walk away, and it's like, wow, that like, does Paul know that he probably should have doubled the price for that thing so well, I do know, but that's not the role that I'm playing. That's not the ecosystem that I'm running. I think

so. I agree with you. And I think there's even like, the stage further, which is, like it is that's the road to fulfilment, is to be of service. Like, when I'm, you know, I occasionally do get nervous before, before stuff, you know, whether it's like speaking a big conference in front 100 1000s of people. Like, I'm not completely immune to that. I feel good about it. Feel excited, but I can really feel that my central nervous system is like kicking in, and it knows that it's got to do something. And so a little mantra I just have to myself is just like, Be of service to these people. Like, Be of service these people, and just kind of lock it, lock it in. I think, you know, I'm always trying to be the kind, the kindest version of myself, I would say, the people that you're describing who

find it difficult to process taking a risk of doing something for free or investing with some somebody, in some sense, whether it's a mentor or whatever it is, but that giving away the hard earned money for something, the reason that there Is that inertia is they have probably had a negative experience in the past, and so they're just bringing that into the into the into the present day. And all we could ever do is like, help that person see that this is a different version of the world, and the people are different. It's like, you know, if you get, like, really badly dumped by your girlfriend, and you'd like, Oh, my God, you know, women are all awful. Women are awful, yeah, but then, like, the next week, you like, meet this amazing like, I met my my wife in the key of a nightclub, and like, I've been in love ever since the day I met her, and it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. So it's like, well, you know, the past is not the reflected the future. So that I think the people describing, if I'm putting my kind I'm putting my kindest version forward, is that that person's probably had a negative experience, and that that's all that's going on, like somebody's taking advantage of them, and God, you know, we've all been there.

Totally, yeah, totally, totally. So for somebody who is

starting to want to understand money and investment a little bit more. So we've obviously talked about from a budgeting perspective, and starting to get your feet under control in terms of money. Don't buy a house budget like be sensible

if you were right now in today's market. So 2025, 2026

Yeah, if you were someone who had 50 to 100,000

pounds,

yeah, and you were thinking about buy to let serviced accommodation, stocks and shares, crypto, what would you your would your advice be to somebody who's in that kind of conundrum of trying to figure out what to do next. Okay? So from like, a purely mechanical point of view, I would

look at, you know, look, what am I like, domestic arrangements, like, what my survival needs look like. So the world is a very interesting place right now. So the first thing I would address is like, Am I in a resilient place. So if you know you live on a street where people set fire to cars and buses, which happens in Leeds, I'm really sorry to say, but it happens. It happens in more places than just leads. This is not us speaking on leads. We love you and and I think over the next few years we're going to see more of it, because we've got we're I think there's this book called The fourth turning. We might touch on it later, but we're going through a fourth turning. We're going through a crisis. We're going to come out of it, I think in the by the 2030s and the future looks absolutely amazing. It looks like absolutely fantastic, but we're going to have a difficult period. So step one is like, attend to your immediate resilience. Do you live on the street? Where they set far to the buses? If they do, you got to move, and you've got to fight whatever it takes. You've got to get to a place, because your postcode makes a difference. There's lots of research into this. Your postcode, unfortunately, makes a difference. Of course it shouldn't, but it does. Then it would be looking at the mechanics of like financial engineering is, you know, which you, obviously, you deal with very ably in your book, is, well, look at

what's your anticipated return in whatever you're investing in, and then stage one is like, well, what debt do I have, and what is the carrying cost of that debt,

if you, if you're if you can't create a return.

Which is higher than the carrying cost of your debt. You need to address the debt. So let's say you've got a horrendous credit card. It's 36%

you know, which many of them are, which is wild, yeah. I mean, you know it should be a crime. And, I mean, it should also be a crime about, well, why do they give them to people? But we all know that system is broken. We know our system, system of money, is broken,

and you know, why is it? For example, I've got a 999, credit score, but somebody who has never, ever been in debt will have effectively a 00, because the system penalises people who don't play by the rules of the system, which includes taking on debt. So

I, I would 100% get rid of all the bad debt first of all. And I would, you know, if I could transport myself back to being 21 I

didn't need any of that furniture in my flat. You know, I would buy

John Lewis furniture. You could have totally I didn't need any furniture. I needed a bed to sleep in. And I would say, get the best bed that you maybe a coffee cup, coffee cup and a kettle

and but I would get the best bed that I could afford. I wouldn't even get a base for it. I would just get the best mattress that I could afford, I would get nothing else, and I would just get rid of that bad debt as quickly as I could. I would, you know, make packed lunches for work. I wouldn't go out on the beers too much, and I wouldn't buy a single coffee. You know, I'd live quite an austere life until I cleared that debt, because clearing that debt equals freedom. And then I would then immediately think about creating more financial resilience, which is, am I prepared for an unexpected shock? The truth is, there is no unexpected shock, if you think about it, because life is highly unpredictable, so

we have to anticipate that we're going to need, we have an urgent need for cash at some point, all of us. So I would then start as a stage one is to have, like, a buffer of some, some kind. And I think,

you know, would it be great to have a year of cash in the bank? Yeah, of course it would, but that's completely unrealistic for most people. So I would say somewhere between one month to three months of availability of cash. I would also think about what available credit you can have, and I think we have to be careful with credit, but if you didn't currently have a naught percent credit card, I would look at what the best available ones you qualify for, and I would get one just in case something goes really pear shaped. And you know, you've got it there. Because what unfortunately happens in a crisis, liquidity dries up. So what you will notice in covid is the day off that so the day before covid, I stopped lending, like all of these amazing credit cards the day of covid, all the websites went blank because everybody panicked. It's that's interesting. That's what happened. So you need it before a crisis. And you know it's like if a person, for example, was not in a redundancy process, but it was something on their mind. There's lots of things you can do when you're an employee that you can get while you've got a salary that you can't get, and you're not you have, so just prepare a little bit for the future. Yeah, I think if you are, if you know that you're you're highly you

the that word that I'm looking for where impulsive, if you know you're highly impulsive, and

I've got someone I really love who is open, very happy to admit that they've got ADHD, and this person has a high impulsivity drive, so they cannot restrain impulses with great ease. So if that is sounds familiar to you, then think about how that money that you've got you may be able to not get access to. So like, this might sound a bit ridiculous, but like rather than keeping it in pounds, maybe they could buy gold coins, get a safety deposit box in a different city, put it in the safety deposit box in a different city. And so that way, when they feel like they want to book that last minute trip to Ibiza, they they have a barrier, physical barrier, yeah, like anything that, like, puts a bit of inertia in, you know, similarly, if

you know, they could put, let's say they put some savings into crypto or something like that, but it store it in such a way that there is a barrier. You know, there are barriers that.

You need to go through so you can't liquidate and you can't send it to booking.com you know. So cash buffer, if you lower an impulse control, think about creating barriers to access. So storing, you know, in gold as just an example, in a safety box well away from where you live, or lock it up in some way.

And then I think you're then into the next kind of tier at that point, which is to think about

where else to sort of deploy capital. So I think the best single investment on the face of the planet is yourself. There is nothing that's ever going to go come close to it. So whether that's having a really good job that you love or having your own enterprise, I would say that is stage one, because no asset you can ever invest in will ever perform that you know, if you can be cash flow positive for the rest of your life. Never want to retire, whatever that might mean

that that and ideally, will have unlimited growth potential, and you can choose where you hit commercial balance and stop,

that's really cool, and then build up the layers from there, in terms of, I mean, and again, like, this is all in your books. I'm not

teaching this as anything. I don't know. But, like, think about whole of market. So owning indexes, owning the whole the market, you're not taking, you're not taking individual stock risk. You're not actually having to do any research. You have to choose anything. Don't choose anything. Don't think about it if you don't want to. Don't look at charts. I love looking at charts, but it's like, you know, just looking at charts. But I'm,

I'm not really, like, a nerd about it. I'd rather just know it's doing its thing. It's the first thing I do when I wake up after I've, like, you know, kind of, you know, done all the other stuff. But, like, I look at the charts, like, two, three times a day, and they they tell me what's going on in the world. And I love it. I'm interested in it, but, but I think I wouldn't recommend that to my daughter. I would just say cash flow positive buffer. Lock that buffer away. Whole of market ladder into index, index funds, whatever you believe in, have a view on the world. So what do you think the world will look like? If you think that America is going to be a burning inferno and it's all over, then express your view in a particular way. So just you know, you know, avoid American index fund. What you believe. So start, if you imagine it as a pyramid. Start at the base. Build, foundational assets. Build then, like, into the whole of market assets, index funds, don't try and time the market just pound cost average in have a view about where you think the world is going. So if you think that, you know there are a lot of smart people who want to move to America and set up businesses because it's the most liquid market on the face of the planet, then you might invest in states, and you might invest in technology. For example, if you, if you think it's over for the states, for whatever reason, then you can obviously head in a different direction, I think, have your own world view. And then you can, once you've built that layer of the base, you can think, Well, are there individual things that I have a niche or edge in. So it was of no surprise to discover that a lot of the advisors during covid disclosed that they all owned the pharmaceutical companies. And there's no criticism of that. It's like that's what they know. So they owned all the companies that were making vaccines because they knew that that was the future, and they invested in and you and I, we might have little niches where we know about a particular thing, so we can take individual company risk with a small part of our portfolio and and enjoy that ride with that company. You know, I once had a guy come to my breakfast meeting who, I mean, he was really an extreme example of this, but he had put his whole put his whole net worth into Tesla, like, everything, because he just got it for him. It clicked. He was like, This is not a car company. This is a technology company. This is the future. And this was eight years ago. So he is mega this, you know, like, he's got millions and millions, millions, and it's really funny, like I see him at networking do, and he gives none of it, like he gives nothing away. So he hasn't bought the watch, he, you know, he hasn't he, but he's just like on his phone, entirely people underestimate. I have a funny story about this. So I had

a client that used to help build portfolios for him, and she came to an event of mine, and the first time I ever met her, she had shoes on. No joke, there was holes in her shoes, and she looked quite scruffy, I suppose, is the word that you would use. And

I ended up being like in the car park at the same time, and the car that she drove was like an absolute banger.

Like rusty patches, like seller taped on seals. Like, you assume she has absolutely nothing. And most people, I think around me, was like, Who's this lady? Like, what is she doing at a property event? I ended up having

dinner with this lady once. She just invited me for dinner once, and I was like, Yeah, okay, cool, let's go have dinner, because I like to connect people. Anyway, we had dinner, and she then proceeded to take me to her block of apartments in central London, and there was like 40 apartments in this building, and then she took me out and showed me across the road. She owned the 40 in the block across the road as well, all unencumbered, no mortgages, just like an actual gazillionaire and

boy shoes on. So I was like, I'm so curious about that choice when you've got that sort of money, you know, the rents on them will have been cash flow from a, you know, would have been wild every single month.

What? What

the mindset of some people who choose to buy the watch when they can't really afford the watch they're getting on finance, versus people that don't choose to buy the watch when they absolutely could afford every watch? There is, I think that's a really interesting mindset thing. I think also there's a lesson in there in how to approach people. I once worked with a lady who was very liquid, and she would go to property events, and her complaint to me, and it was, you know, she wasn't like complaining, complaining, but she said, You know, it's so interesting is that people often find that, like people are talking at me, and nobody ever asks me what I'm here for or what I might be interested in. And she was very, very liquid at the time. She said, No one ever asked me. No one ever ever asked me,

oh, what are you here for? How can I help you? Because she might have said, I'm actually quite liquid right now.

Yeah, exactly. So that's that's kind of fascinating. Back to the portfolio. So then above, like, individual company risk, if you've got an edge, you believe you know something that the rest of the market doesn't, or you anticipate the future in particular way, then you're into, like, speculation at the top, I know you might do a bit of forex. I don't do Forex because I have done and I and I would and will probably again, but I'm not at the moment. So I did a whole Forex course with, like, one of the leading Forex trainers, and I just got to the end of it, and I was like, I am not interested in forex.

I just couldn't I was sitting charts, just going, I'm so bored, like I'm not feeling this at all. Whereas I have historically traded the gold and silver market, you know, and I am obsessed by it, you know. And have not now, I have to say, but historically, I've made, like, life changing amounts of money in that market.

But is that that at the top tier, you've got your spec speculation, and it's, it's about, you know, you can create really oversized returns if you're able to think independently, to have your own conviction, not rented conviction, and, you know, just form your own view. And I would also say, have a long enough holding period, you know, if you could hold something for a decade, because you believe in it, it's probably going to work.

I think if you're gonna that's just my perspective, because I'm not, we talk about this, the Money Mechanics live events, like, if, if you need it within the next five years, it's not the money to be put in, into speculative stuff, like, between five and 10 years. If you can hold for like 10 or more years, then, you know, it will probably work. It will probably pay off. But if you need it like now or in a minute, it it's probably not the right place to put. Like speculative stuff is not the right place to go. I would, I would say that about about all assets as well, is, you know, we we are live. We live in a very, very volatile time. So you look at the swings just on the index funds, as the funds, you know, 20% isn't particularly unusual. Now that can happen on a Tuesday afternoon, when something happens. So I think to stomach that kind of thing from a practical perspective, you know, if you're in trading view is to scroll out the chart as far as it will go, and to think about all of the inverted commas, Black Swans, all of the crises that have happened during that period. The chart is open, and there will be about 20 of them, and each one was the end of the world.

And look like you can't remember what that was and that it looks tiny on the chart. I think that that definitely helps scroll out. And that's my view. But that's because I don't think the world is coming to end. I think where the things will March onwards, human progress would be made 100%

and, you know, I think.

Investing with a long term plan is

such an important detail for people to remember is that I hear a lot of okay, but what do I buy and sell like this week, I'm not giving you stock tips to buy. That's trading. It's not investing. It's a slightly different thing. If investment is what you want, long term financial, structured security that is open to volatility because the markets are but so is everything. Then investing with a long term plan has got to be the detail that you remember, like that, five to 10 years, 10 years, ideally, because also then Compound Interest can kick in and do a lot of the heavy lifting for you, which it doesn't do in the first two years or three years or five years, but it starts to be quite sexy after 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, like that's where you know, the money's doing the work for us in a much better way.

I think, as well, there are different asset classes that open up to us as we progress, either from a portfolio construction point of view, or without getting too from a spiritual point of view as well. So from a portfolio construction point of view, somebody was asking me about options trading this week, and I love options trading. I just I find it so stimulating. I really enjoy it. But I think

what I said to this person is, unless you've got

six figures, and ideally multiples of six figures that you could you could have put down there, it doesn't make any sense, because you might buy an options trading course for 20,000 pounds. It's going to take a long time. If you've got trading account, it's gonna take you a long time to pay back that you might ever do it like you might be doing it for a decade, and you might not happen. So there are times where in in our investing cycle, where things don't make sense to do and but later they will. You know, as as the portfolio grows and you have more time to think about things, so I think things come at a different time as well. So for me, the

most recent thing that's coming up for me is, is I've joined this business investment group, but, you know, I'm

that's a long view that's like a 10 year plan. And it may be that for the first couple of years, I'm just there to learn. Because what I'm immediately learning is that these are very illiquid investments. You know that people are locked in for 10 years. There aren't the exit, there aren't all the exits that everybody thinks there are. Like how many IPOs are happening in the UK right now, not very many. So you say you're looking for another business to rock up to buy an existing business. How much are they going to want to pay for the business? They're going to want a great deal because they're in the business of being in business. So that's an example of something that I'm curious and interested in. But deploying capital in it is going to have, is going to be a 10 year plan, and it will need some thought, because it will be the most illiquid investment in my portfolio, like a property can be sold with relatively the right price, because price is the factor, isn't it? So yeah, things come at the right time as well. Interesting, Paul, I could talk to you for hours, but actually we are. We should probably wrap things up. So one of the things we do at the end of every episode is we ask you a question that was given to us by our last guest, and then we asked you to give us a question for our next guest. Okay, so the question that we was left by our last guest for you is, what would you do with your time if money was no object?

What I do right now so so and to add a bit of detail so it doesn't sound too like cliche, so what? How do I spend my time? I spend my time my beautiful family, who I love very much. As I said, I have the blessing that both my parents are still alive, so I visit them as regularly as I can, particularly in this stage of their life, because I'm aware of what happens next.

I work with a very small number of people, because I do not want to be famous. I do not want to be a guru. I love my life, and I work very small number of people, and I'm the right fit for them, they're also the right fit for me, and and, and so that's that's a blessing. I love hosting my podcast because I this. I love these conversations. I do these all day. You know, I'm quite introverted, actually, so I like conversation rather than bigger rooms.

I love Hasting my breakfast because we don't have speakers. We don't have pitching in the sense of me, but it's just like people getting together and sharing their experience and really connecting with each other. I love my little business group. I have 10 people a year that I work with. That's it, and I don't.

Like, get involved in any other madness, and I love that. It's the most rewarding thing I do. I host my retreats,

and I just, they're just this ever evolving thing that I get a lot of

reward from on a number of different levels. And I'd love being outside, like I surf a lot. I love being in nature. This year has been difficult for me year because I had quite a major operation a few weeks ago to remove the metal work that was put in when I came off my motorbike. So, yeah, I got really fit, got really healthy, lost four stone, and the consequence of that was the metal work became exposed to various moving parts of the knee joint, which he previously wasn't exposed to. So they said, Look, I'm afraid, mate, we need to have it all out. So again, surfing mountain. We've got a camper van

just out in nature, travelling that. That is my life, and that is what I love, that. And then to wrap up, leave us a question for our next guest, anything you like. Can be anything you want?

I would say,

if somebody finds themselves in a crisis,

what are the first the three things you would recommend that in your experience, has helped you move through crisis, through to flourishing. Great question. Thank you so much, Paul, it's been an absolute pleasure hanging out with you. If people want to get in touch with you, or connect with you in some way, or come to one of your breakfast meetings. Like, how can they connect with you? How can they talk to you? So the easiest thing to do is just to find me on the social So, Facebook, LinkedIn, Insta, are the main main ones. Probably Facebook are very easy to find. So you know, you see, my name is Paul lanfield, reasonably rare. If you find a piano teacher, that's not me piano

teacher, so I'm the guy with the beard. He likes going surfing. So if you connect with me on social media, that'd be fantastic. If you check out the podcasts. Of having almost most of the year off doing the podcast, because rightly or wrongly, we've been going through our portfolio making it fully EPC compliant. We might regret that, because they might change everything, but you know, we're in this for the next decade at least, so that's what we do. So I'm going back to the podcast. Check out the podcast, and then through the socials, you'll see me talk about my breakfast. That would be amazing, depending on when you hear this podcast, the most important

breakfast I organise is what's called the discovery day, and I do it every January. And basically anyone in the world can rock up to it, and you will leave with a one page business plan, because I know in my heart of hearts that the key is to have a plan. The plan doesn't need to be very good, but if you have a plan, you will make progress. So I just wish that everybody on the planet would have a one page business plan. I try and help them achieve that every January and 100%

of the proceeds of that event every year goes to a charity that we work for in Leeds called flourishing families. And they

are really amazing. So they they look after

the most disadvantaged families in Leeds, and they really take really good care of them. And in particular, they look after kids who are in, you know, challenging households. They do the most amazing work. And I just every year, I love to start the year with, like, supporting them, because, particularly because it's in January. You know, it's not a great month for charity, let's be honest. So it's something I really believe in. And if you don't, if you don't leave, like with a 10 out of 10 experience, I'll give you your money back, and I'll still give the money to charity as well. So yeah, if you ever, if you get opportunities come from those, please do. No worries. I will get the links and everything into the show notes with this episode. So anyone wants to contact you or talk to you or come to that event, they'll have access to the links and stuff. So thank you very much, Paul, it's been absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. You so much for getting to the end of the podcast episode. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I just wanted to take this opportunity to remind you that the weekly Money Mechanics newsletter is available to you completely free. This is the newsletter I'm going to send out every week to just give you some ideas around what's happening in the markets, what's happening at a global level, what's happening at a lot more local level, so that you can better understand what you can do with your money to make it work for you for the future. I'm also going to share in the newsletter what I'm doing in my own portfolio, just to give you some insights into what my ideas are, why I'm making the decisions that I'm making, in the hope that it will help you to make those decisions in your own portfolios as well. All you've got to do is find the link that's with this episode, hit the link and subscribe, and that newsletter will start to come out to you every single week. I'd also really love to take this opportunity to invite you to drop me a.

Review. I love the opportunity of getting to share these podcast episodes with you. It really helps me to better understand how we can do the best job that we can here at Money Mechanics, if you tell us your feedback. So drop us a review. Tell us the sort of guests that you want. Talk to me and connect with me on Instagram, you know, talk to us on YouTube, wherever you are hanging out. Tell us how you're finding it, and we can make this the very best podcast it can be. Thank you again for being such a valued listener. I appreciate you all, and I'll speak to you soon. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai