08_Online - dub011 - Awin Podcast Mini-series Margate Day 1 - Kevin Edwards - (16-9) - V4.2.txt
English (UK)

00:00:00.240 — 00:00:11.600 · Speaker 1
Um, but in terms of starting a business, I don't know, it's just I suppose it's. Make sure you surround yourself with, with with good people that that can be honest and open with you and tell you when you're making a wrong decision.

00:00:25.280 — 00:01:18.730 · Speaker 1
So my name is John Edwards. I am the founder and director of the Affiliate Marketing Association, which is a not for profit organisation, trade association representing the affiliate and partner marketing industries, the kind of pretty much the whole mouthful. It kind of does what it says. Uh, and how long has the APM been around for?

So we are nearly three years old. Three years old this summer. And it was sort of like a kernel of an idea that came from a feeling that we didn't really have a collective voice as an industry, you know, a large industry, 10% of e-commerce spend. But we didn't really have a collective voice. And it just sort of kind of snowballed from a few conversations.

Started off pretty small, just speaking to a small group of people. That group of people then doubled, secured a bit of funding to go off and set something up. And then we said, right, we'll decide what to do when we've set something up. And it just sort of snowballed from there really. Mhm.

00:01:19.010 — 00:01:34.690 · Speaker 2
Um, I wanted to ask you a little bit about mistakes, setbacks, failures, the general losing vibe. Um, what is the single biggest failure or setback that you've experienced as a, as a founder of an organisation like the APM I guess.

00:01:34.730 — 00:02:55.770 · Speaker 1
Well, I suppose as a not for profit were a bit different. So we don't or our financial exposure is less uh, so you know, basically is a not for profit, you don't pay corporation tax, but you basically spend the money that you get. So we don't have investors. We don't have to worry about sort of. We don't have like nervous nights worrying about making sure that, um, you know, we're getting them a good return on investment.

And our growth plans are very much around the money that we collect. I guess the the thing that that keeps me awake at night, um, is the fact that because we have a subscription model, we basically are relying on people renewing, um, every year. And so October, I suppose the biggest setback that we had is the after the we we secured, we made made sure people signed up for two years to begin with.

Um, which, uh. Yeah, locked them in for two years. Um, but after that two years, it was seeing the fact that we did have some churn. I think it was inevitable. I think we were relatively lucky in terms of the lack of churn that we had. Yeah. But that's that's got to be the biggest setback because you're, you're you're cutting your cloth according to the money you've got.

Right. So, um, and so you then have to sort of like shrink some of your ambitions based around random revenue that you've got.

00:02:55.810 — 00:03:12.900 · Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. Have you ever had any instances of things that you've planned at the APM, a new initiatives, projects, things that have like maybe not worked to the extent that you would have liked or where you've come up against a challenge that has just been too difficult to overcome. I guess I guess.

00:03:13.300 — 00:04:40.300 · Speaker 1
I'd say there's I suppose there's two things in that we are typically, I think, probably seen as a bit of discretionary spend. So if companies are told to kind of like make a 10% cut to their marketing budgets, then ours is probably the the first one to go. So that that that becomes a challenge because we have to kind of do a lot of objection handling about, um, about around that.

I think the another big challenge that we have is trying to get engagement from people. I think if people are paying you a fee, they obviously expect something in return. But because we don't bring in a huge amount of revenue, we're limited in what what we can do. And a lot of the projects that we want to do are quite complex.

They require a lot of industry collaboration. And so it's sort of that learning curve about making sure that people, um, can, can get involved in projects if they want. But you're then having to be sort of quite disciplined about saying, look, if we don't hear from you, then we're just going to go ahead and do this thing.

And the consequences are for your business X, Y, and Z. And you know, you have an opportunity to shape stuff. But if you don't get involved, um, then you you can't you can't be that voice that's helping to shape stuff. And that's our biggest challenge. Um, it I wasn't I wasn't naive about this going into this because I've done previous work with trade associations and doing a lot of kind of research into what the biggest challenges are for trade associations.

But membership engagement is by far and away the biggest challenge.

00:04:40.420 — 00:04:54.510 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Uh, yeah. Um, was there ever a point when you were, I guess, planning the launch of the APM or in the process of launching it, that you were worried or concerned that it might not actually work out.

00:04:56.550 — 00:04:57.710 · Speaker 2
Is that ongoing right now?

00:04:59.750 — 00:05:15.270 · Speaker 1
Like, October is our big crunch time because that's when all the. That's when we sent out all the initial invoices. So that is that the bulk of our renewals happen in October. So ask me in a few months time. Um, we yeah, I mean, we.

00:05:17.350 — 00:06:25.720 · Speaker 1
I think that there was we were just sort of, I suppose in a lot of these conversations that you can have with other founders, you kind of at some degree, you're making it up as you go along and some of it sticks, some of it doesn't. The ability, the the, the beauty of running a small business is that you can just be very agile.

If something doesn't work, you just scrap it. Or if you don't have the time to do it, you just move on to something else. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that's that's that's ongoing. You know, we the challenge we have is making sure that we feel as though members are getting value from us, and sometimes that isn't very tangible.

Um, you know, if you're talking to a publisher and they're and they're having to grow their revenue. That's very measurable. But we don't really have those, um, those measurables. We, you know, we're not really judged, I don't think, by things like. Obviously on things like return on investment. But one of the big challenges we have is, um, for certain companies.

They are very happy to invest because they think it's the right thing to do. But when you kind of hit the plateau of those companies, you then have to go out to other companies who are looking for what do I get for my money? And the commoditization of what we do is quite tricky sometimes to explain.

00:06:26.160 — 00:06:40.320 · Speaker 2
I wanted to ask you quickly just about whether or not something like the membership churn challenge, is that something that you've taken any kind of lessons from at all? Um, and is there anything it's taught you that you take into the business today?

00:06:40.360 — 00:08:37.210 · Speaker 1
So, but when we started off, we only had a very small number of, of, of companies that were members. We didn't we were also building our subscriber base at the same time. So, um, by that I mean email subscribers. So people that weren't necessarily paying membership, but we could kind of market to or educate in the with a view to potentially them coming on board at a later stage.

Also, we offer free membership to brands as well. So we wanted to build out a database of brands that we could go and speak to and try and engage with as well. I think one of the things that I was very conscious of want needing to do or wanting to do, but sort of didn't really it felt like a very, very big project.

But but like a lot of things, when you're just sort of learning as you're making up as you go along, and it's an iterative process. But one of the things that we were really conscious of needing was kind of like a way of being able to gauge engagement, engage engagement. Um, so and that was that meant that we needed to have a really good CRM.

Um, and so we invested a lot of time. And Jenna in my team kind of took us on a specific project, uh, and we worked with intently. In particular, we're very, very helpful in helping us implement a CRM, and within the CRM, we use HubSpot and within HubSpot. What we can do is start to build out engagement metrics so we can see, for example.

Then obviously we know how many people from a win who is a member have. Have signed up to receive our newsletters. But obviously we can then track open rates. We can see if they've downloaded our. Everything. All of our reports are downloadable where we track that information so we can start to put together.

I could turn around to if, for example, um, you would say, well, actually we're up questioning or whether we want to be members anymore, I could turn around, say, well, actually, 300 people from A1 have downloaded content in the last year. We've had 50 of them have come to our meetings. Uh, 60 of them have registered for our webinars.

So we can start to I can literally say, you know, that is the content engagement that we're able to provide because you're paying for membership.

00:08:37.250 — 00:08:59.450 · Speaker 2
I'm going to change gears a little bit and ask you a bit about other business ideas that you might have had, either within the context of the APM or even prior to that. Um, and specifically, what's the worst business idea that you've ever had or come up with one that you genuinely thought might work but just couldn't get off the ground for whatever reason?

00:09:00.290 — 00:11:01.620 · Speaker 1
One thing that we really want to do and we still want, we still want to try and try and do it. But it's just we just haven't been able to get it off the ground. Um, I wouldn't say it's like a it's a good idea. It's just that we just haven't we don't have the capacity, um, to, to sort of do it properly is I really want to do stuff around, um, accreditation and training.

If you look at like a lot of trade associations will offer formalised and then that becomes like the de facto standard for that industry formalised training. And we do want to do that. We just and but it's like we started trying to work on it two years ago, and we just haven't got anything out of the door. And it was one of our it was one of the things that we sold in initially.

As part of your membership, we will do training and at some point we will. Yeah, we just haven't got to that point. So I wouldn't say it's like a bad idea. It's just been something that has just been it. We just haven't been able to. It's that whole kind of like I'm very conscious of if we've got 12 months to keep someone, the outputs need to be we need they need to be.

There needs to be a cadence of outputs. And if the training if we if you build out like an initial training module, then you have to keep building up additional modules. There's also the thing around, if you're selling a product so that training would be available, we'd probably give it to free or certainly discounted to members.

But if you're then going out and selling it more broadly to non-members, you then have to put all of the customer service element in about selling a product. Um, and so as soon as you start thinking like the idea of doing training, you think, oh yeah, of course do training. And as soon as you start to plan out what that looks like, it actually becomes, you would need somebody dedicated at least part time to running that, that as a customer service, the customer service element of that product.

Yeah. And so it's sort of like there's tons of things we could do and that we want to do, but it's sort of just, as I say, making sure that we're not overstretching ourselves beyond the because we don't have a lot of resource. You know, I work full time on it, and I have two people at work part time, and that's it.

That's the that's the only resource we have for the entire industry to do everything that we want to do.

00:11:01.660 — 00:11:18.780 · Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. What would you say that you I mean, I know you're only, what, 2 or 3 years in now. Um, what would you say? You know, now, as a, as a founder and as a leader, um, that you really wish you'd understood not just at the start of the APM, but maybe even earlier in your career.

00:11:19.500 — 00:12:14.310 · Speaker 1
I think I mean, it probably. I never thought of myself. I mean, I'm quite old now, so I came quite late to this because I only ever worked for companies. I think the fact it's not, it's not easy saying something up, but I think that I think it can feel very, very daunting for people because you think if you kind of think you need to get you want to get from A, a, A to Z effective, you know, this, the kernel of an idea to actually the the rolling out and running a successful business.

But you there's obviously tons of iterative steps and they're all like learning experiences as you go along. And so it's not really necessarily about that. That can feel very daunting. And I think it's sort of like recognising that actually every, every, every day is like a school day. You do just learn stuff and you just become very adept at, at, um, just being able to spot when something's working and stop, stop, stop working on things when they're not.

Yeah. Um, that doesn't really answer the question, does it?

00:12:14.350 — 00:12:26.710 · Speaker 2
No, it kind of does. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, if you were to go back and actually speak to your younger self, though, 25 year old Kev, what would be the thing that you'd, you'd kind of relay to yourself?

00:12:27.310 — 00:12:27.950 · Speaker 1
I think

00:12:29.270 — 00:13:03.480 · Speaker 1
as you get older you just become a lot more confident, don't you? You it becomes easier to say no or becomes any easier to spot when, uh, you just become a more kind of emotionally, um, educated about when people when you're working well with people and what people's motivations are. I've always been sort of like quite on the level in the ice, just to always assume good intent that people are working towards collective goals.

And what you generally learn as you get older is actually a lot of people around you are kind of working with different motivations. That sounds quite sinister.

00:13:07.000 — 00:13:18.080 · Speaker 2
And was there any advice that you were given? Um, I guess particularly in the early days of the APA or just pre founding that that you but you didn't necessarily believe until it came back and, and bit you to some degree.

00:13:18.200 — 00:13:19.840 · Speaker 1
I mean the advisory board of.

00:13:20.200 — 00:13:22.880 · Speaker 2
Oh yeah. You did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, having that in itself.

00:13:23.480 — 00:14:14.400 · Speaker 1
When I put the advisory board together, it I wanted to draw lots of different voices. There's we only have six people on it, but I've got Mark Walters who's obviously run a successful, successful affiliate network. Clare O'Brien coming in from a trade association point of view of Julia Stent, who's worked publisher side.

Lots of different businesses advises them. I've got brand voice on that. I've got a tan from a legal and Regs point of view as well. Um, so I think getting those a broad range of opinions and views from across industry and outside of industry as well, has been has been really useful. And it's just sort of like a bit of self-belief as well, because there was a lot of self-doubt and inevitably it can be quite lonely as well.

It sort of just sat there thinking, I don't know how to do this, or I don't know whether this is the right thing to do. And so having them, I think, as a sounding board is, is really useful.

00:14:14.440 — 00:14:15.920 · Speaker 2
Would you say that like

00:14:16.960 — 00:14:32.520 · Speaker 2
one of the benefits of experience, and particularly having a network of people that you can trust, um, and surrounding yourself with those voices has been particularly beneficial in terms of setting up your own trade body.

00:14:32.520 — 00:15:22.090 · Speaker 1
I mean, I can't speak for other other people, but I'm sure other founders will say having finding good people who've been there, done that or can bring a perspective is as it comes back to the point I'm making about sometimes it can feel quite lonely. Mhm. Um, you need to have people that you can trust that can help you.

Um, and I think that advisory board fulfils that function. Yeah. Um, you know, you can literally sit there and just be very honest and open, and a lot of the time it's me sort of bringing. Typically those meetings are about this has gone wrong or these these are the challenges we have. How do we do this better or how do we do this at all?

Yeah. And it might be that they turn around, say it's a bad idea. Don't do it in which in which case that's great. That's fine. Right. You just ditch it and move on to something else. But having that group of

00:15:23.130 — 00:15:32.450 · Speaker 1
different voices. Mhm. Um, is a sounding board kind of like help validate your views or your, your thoughts is, is really invaluable.

00:15:32.490 — 00:15:37.570 · Speaker 2
Yeah. What would be your advice to give to someone that's thinking about starting a business today?

00:15:38.490 — 00:15:39.170 · Speaker 1
Don't bother.

00:15:42.290 — 00:16:03.810 · Speaker 1
Um, it's I it's interesting. Actually. I think there's a lot, a lot more. It feels as though there are a lot more people that are kind of striving out on their own in kind of like consultancy roles and freelancing roles. I think sort of making sure that you value your if you're going down that route, making sure you value your worth.

I think sometimes people can feel as though

00:16:05.210 — 00:16:33.260 · Speaker 1
they price them. They have to price themselves at a lower rate. So I think if you if you, if you're looking at it from that angle, making sure that you know, you know your worth and your price accordingly. Um, but in terms of starting a business, I don't know, it's just I suppose it's make sure you surround yourself with, with, with good people that that can be honest and open with you and tell you when you're making a wrong decision or encourage you or support you.

As I say, that having that advisory board around me.

00:16:34.300 — 00:16:59.980 · Speaker 1
Um, I'd probably, I would probably say slightly less reliant on them now than I was in the early days when everything was just sort of new and we were just iterating out, but having a good group of people around you, making sure you've got people that are working for you, that that you, that you trust implicitly, um, that are good or, you know, just yeah, I think surround yourself with just make sure you surround yourself with people.

00:17:00.020 — 00:17:06.660 · Speaker 2
Yeah. What what does winning actually mean to you? What does it mean to win? Oh, God.

00:17:07.180 — 00:17:08.339 · Speaker 1
I hate these questions.

00:17:09.100 — 00:17:15.500 · Speaker 2
Describe a scenario where you felt like you've you've had a success or you've had a win of some kind.

00:17:15.540 — 00:18:14.550 · Speaker 1
So I think so when. So trade association can do lots of different things. And I think people think about trade associations in different ways. Some people want things like training. Some people want guides, reports, um, representation when you're speaking to regulators. Um, we just literally heard today that the the CMA are, um, compelling Google to make certain changes around how publishers are represented, um, um, within AI and within their search search services.

And I can't claim credit for that. But we did do a we did a submission. And basically in our submission as a trade association representing publishers, we said we want X, Y and Z. And they've pretty much all of the things that they said that they were going to do, if they've pretty much done so that that I think is, is a is a success.

You know, we can we can maybe we we what we asked for, we effectively got. Now, as I say, I'm not saying that it's direct correlation there.

00:18:14.710 — 00:18:16.310 · Speaker 2
Um, it's an attribution problem.

00:18:16.310 — 00:20:49.000 · Speaker 1
Again it's the attribution hidden. Um, but but one of the things that on a separate note, one of the things that I really wanted to do was set that sets up, that set something up was we didn't know how big the industry was properly the IAB had kind of ceased to sort of contextualise the affiliate channel properly anymore.

And really, you know, we're we're a growth channel, a big marketing channel, 10% of e-commerce. Yet we didn't know how big the industry was. It's like, how can you go and advocate for an industry? How can CMOs take affiliate marketing seriously? If they were to ask somebody that pitching to them? Well, how big is the industry?

And they would go, well, I don't don't actually know. So I think that was that that was sort of like a key piece of work that we wanted to do, and I didn't I wasn't certain that networks would share that data with me, because they're effectively sharing all of their very sensitive commercial data. They're sharing their basically, um, all of their numbers around their performance, how well they're doing across different sectors, across different publishers.

And I didn't know whether networks would be up for doing that, especially because if we had got PwC to do it, they probably would have easily shared it with them. But in order to get PWP to do that piece of work probably would have cost about 150 grand. We had 12 grand. Um, that we went out and asked people to, to provide like additional money to us.

So we went out to networks and said, look, can you give us some cash? This is. This is useful data for you. Probably, but we need some cash to do it. In addition to their fees. And I hired an independent consultant to do it again. Like, are they going to share this data with this sort of random guy that does it, you know, does his own research.

And we were able to get all the networks by the data. We know about 12 affiliate networks supplying that data and he was able to aggregate it. We were then able to contextualise it and push that data out. And now we just released the third year data. We've just done it for a third time. So now that has become, I think, um, the standard that now people just can refer to every year and they can refer to our data and they can see that, as I say, 10% of BigCommerce, one in pound, 1 in 7 pounds, that is spent across Black Friday weekend comes through an affiliate link.

They can see that, um, Air travel is growing by 12% year on year. As a brand spend, that was I think it was 14% last year. So it travels, putting on really impressive double digit growth. And now we have all of that data. So so for me, the fact that that we are able to do it in the first place, and now it's just become like an accepted part of the the affiliate landscape, that that was a big success, I think.

00:20:49.040 — 00:21:01.400 · Speaker 2
Nice. Um, and finally, if you had to put a number on it or, um, be kind of like specific about a tangible success in the future, what does what does success for the Apple look like in three years?

00:21:02.400 — 00:23:14.210 · Speaker 1
I want where I would love to get to. So we're working on a project at the moment, which is about advocacy and representation for the industry. I've just come from a session where, you know, the the, the subjects around the industry's reputation came up. I think sometimes we beat ourselves up about that a bit too much, but clearly it remains a bit of the becomes a bit of an issue.

So one of the projects we're working on at the moment within the advocacy group is to try and create a whole repository of, of, of um content for brands to deal with any kind of internal objections they have for, for affiliate managers. So we've actually got a couple of brand representatives that are leading that.

So they're bringing their own personal perspectives. These are the things that block us when we're talking to our CMO or people internally outside of the affiliate channel. These are the things that stop us unlocking additional budget or, um, ensuring the channel is seen as a more reputable channel.

So we'll build some success for me specifically around that would be if we have that whole library of content, which you can say, oh, I'm being challenged on attribution, I'm being challenged on incremental, I'm being challenged on reputation. And you go, right, well, here's all the content you need in order to go and either give it to them or build your self-confidence to be able to go and argue back.

So success would be having all of that in place. We do want to get to the accreditation stage. Um, but I think it is just if every year we are asking a question, when we in our we do a survey, a qualitative survey, which is how how do you to brands, how do you rate the channel in terms of how um integrated and integral it is to your marketing plans?

And we ask brands to score it out of ten. Um, and we got a score last year of 6.7 out of ten, which I don't really know what 6.7 out of ten looks like. Is that good or is it bad? It's not bad. But is it? How good is it? Yeah. Um, and if we can get so. So that's our sort of mark in the sand, you know, if we can get up to seven this year, we can get to 7.5 next year.

Mm. So kind of having, having those yardsticks as well to be able to but but yeah. But I mean the point of a trade association obviously advocate for represent and then improve the standing of the channels. So that's our kind of I suppose our North Star.

00:23:14.250 — 00:23:20.850 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the question was like, if you go back and tell your younger self one thing, what is it not working?

00:23:20.850 — 00:23:21.570 · Speaker 1
I feel it marks.

00:23:25.620 — 00:23:26.860 · Speaker 2
Then you wouldn't be here.

00:23:27.340 — 00:23:28.180 · Speaker 1
At that point.

00:23:30.660 — 00:23:32.860 · Speaker 1
Um, I would have done differently.

00:23:33.860 — 00:23:37.620 · Speaker 2
You were. You were trained journalists originally, right? Mhm.

00:23:37.660 — 00:23:39.780 · Speaker 1
So I wouldn't have done that.

00:23:39.820 — 00:23:40.220 · Speaker 2
No.

00:23:40.260 — 00:23:43.380 · Speaker 1
Well, no, I probably would have done actually. Yeah. I mean what.

00:23:43.380 — 00:23:49.020 · Speaker 2
Would you, what would you trained us today if you were starting your career all over again.

00:23:49.900 — 00:23:52.420 · Speaker 1
I don't know what I'd have done. I want to be a teacher.

00:23:52.460 — 00:23:53.180 · Speaker 2
Oh, really?

00:23:53.540 — 00:23:54.900 · Speaker 1
Yeah, it's a teacher.

00:23:55.020 — 00:24:01.540 · Speaker 2
Tell us if you've had a loss that's ended up turning into a win unintentionally.

00:24:01.580 — 00:24:15.860 · Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'd mentioned that churns obviously always a risk for us and something that we're worried about. And we did get some churn. October is our main renewal window. And

00:24:17.780 — 00:25:42.590 · Speaker 1
obviously that's revenue that's being removed from us. We have to then try and go and go out and get additional revenue. And one thing that we're able to do off the back of that is say, right, actually, how do we bake in some additional revenue that is guaranteed? And so we set ourselves a target of saying, well, at the moment we're pretty much we're like 90% reliant on membership fees.

And then we're going out randomly asking for pots of cash to do additional bits and pieces, like the research. Yeah. And what we did is actually we went out and built sponsorship packages that we sold in, and we initially we priced them at a level that we got very little interest. We got one key sponsor off the back of that, but we were trying to sell six of them.

So we then cut the packages down half the price and got another six on board. And that revenue meant that we were able to kind of diversify to about six. About two thirds of revenues coming from fees. A third was coming from sponsorship, but that was guaranteed revenue. Instead of us just randomly going out and asking for a pot of cash if we want to do this in June.

Yeah, it's going to cost ten grand. Let's go and find ten grand from companies. We're able to actually bake that in and that. And so that revenue became a reliable source of income alongside the membership fees. And it just was allowed us to do more this year without having to worry about where that money was going to come from if we wanted to do ad hoc projects.

So I guess off the back of churn being an issue, we had to think more creatively about how we bring additional revenue.

00:25:42.630 — 00:25:54.510 · Speaker 2
Yeah. And what about the inverse of that? Has there been anything that you thought that's definitely going to be something that's going to that's going to fly. It's going to take off. It's definitely gonna be a success. And it's just turned out to be just too arduous to pursue.

00:25:54.510 — 00:27:22.320 · Speaker 1
I would say. I mean, there there have been some things that we have mothballed or kind of shunted down the list of priorities just because they are big projects. They are. We just don't have the capacity to do them. I think sometimes the thing that just the thing that I'm always thinking about is when we produce something we want people to see and engage with.

What's the best format of doing that? And I'm a bit old school, and I think that if you've got like a 50 page written report, that's great. You've got 50 pages. But lots of people don't process information the same way. Some people are visual. Some people can take in text. Other people are very tiny. They can't be bothered to read long reports.

So for me, that is a challenge that I have about how do we get that engagement. And sometimes we'll launch stuff and I'm like, that's a really, really good piece of report, a really good quality piece of work. And then we get very, very low interest in it. And it frustrates me when I see people on panels at conferences talking about, wouldn't it be great if we had this?

It's like, well, it exists. It's just that you don't know. It does because, um, for some reason we just haven't been able to to get in there. And, and it is frustrating when I hear companies saying that who I know have got money to, to sign up as members. It's like if you want to be part of that conversation, if you want to get engaged, if if that's a challenge for you, then come on board.

And so that I think is something that is is frustrating for us when we see people that could be involved that that they might be there.

00:27:22.760 — 00:28:07.600 · Speaker 2
That's all for this episode of Lessons From Losing. Next time, we'll be taking lessons from losing to a live audience for A Win's Think Tank UK conference in London. We'll be joined on stage by Matt Wood, founder of leading industry news site Hello Partner and the man behind some of the affiliate industry's biggest events and award ceremonies.

We'll be looking back at the risks, setbacks and lessons that have shaped his entrepreneurial journey and what he's learned from more than two decades of building businesses and bringing an industry together. If you've enjoyed listening, make sure your subscribe so you don't miss the rest of the series.

And if you'd like to watch the full video interviews, just head over to A Win's YouTube channel. Until next time, thanks for listening and join me again for another lesson from losing.