Why Does America Still Think Working 9 to 5 Is the Way to Make a Living?

Subtitle: And, How Can We Be More Like Dolly and Less Like Donald?

In this episode of All American Why, Michael asks why America still organizes so much of working life around systems designed generations ago. From the 40-hour workweek and the decline of organized labor to remote work, employee ownership, burnout, healthcare, workplace flexibility, and the rise of artificial intelligence, Michael explores who benefits when workers become more productive and whether work should demand quite so much of our lives.

Michael then talks with Marina Martinez-Bateman about human-centered management, workers' rights, organizational power, anti-racism, restorative justice, capitalism, and what it might look like to build workplaces differently. Together, they explore how employers can balance accountability with autonomy, profitability with humanity, and the needs of organizations with the dignity and lives of the people who make them work.

"Don’t get so busy making a living that you forget to make a life.” -Dolly Parton

Guest Information

Marina Martinez-Bateman, Founder & CEO of New Coyote Consulting

Marina's work focuses on human-centered management, workers' rights, anti-racism, restorative justice, organizational power, equity, and building institutions differently. Marina also teaches Decolonizing Management, a program examining hierarchy, capitalism, anti-Blackness, budgeting, hiring, firing, accountability, and power inside organizations. Check out all of their workshops! 

Recording and Production

Recorded at: Michael’s Office in SE Portland, Oregon
Original Music: Rainezra (@rainezra) and Vews (@pointofvews)
Audio Editing by: Kye Gilmer (@residual_audio)

Learn More / Sources

The following materials were referenced or informed this episode. Links are provided for transparency and further reading.

State of the Global Workplace: United States Country-Level Data | Gallup
Research on employee engagement and the experience of workers in the United States.
https://www.gallup.com/workplace/704063/state-global-workplace-united-states-country-level-data.aspx

U.S. Workers Adjust to the Changing Nature of Employment: Highlights from the 2024 Work in America Survey | American Psychological Association
Research on burnout, working hours, workplace mental health, workplace flexibility, and the experiences of American workers.
https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/work-in-america/2024

The New York Factory Investigating Commission | U.S. Department of Labor
History of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire and the workplace safety reforms that followed.
https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/mono-regsafepart07

The Department in the New Deal and World War II, 1933 to 1945 | U.S. Department of Labor
Historical background on federal labor protections, organized labor, and workplace reform during the New Deal era.
https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/dolchp03

National Labor Relations Act | National Labor Relations Board
The federal law establishing important protections for collective organizing and bargaining.
https://www.nlrb.gov/guidance/key-reference-materials/national-labor-relations-act

Union Members, 2025 | U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Federal data on union membership, including long-term changes in the percentage of American workers represented by unions.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.htm

Growing Inequalities, Reflecting Growing Employer Power, Have Generated a Productivity-Pay Gap Since 1979 | Economic Policy Institute
Research examining the relationship between increases in worker productivity and compensation.
https://www.epi.org/blog/growing-inequalities-reflecting-growing-employer-power-have-generated-a-productivity-pay-gap-since-1979-productivity-has-grown-3-5-times-as-much-as-pay-for-the-typical-worker/

CEO Pay Jumped Nearly 6% in 2024: CEOs Made 281 Times as Much as the Typical Worker | Economic Policy Institute
Research documenting long-term changes in CEO compensation relative to typical worker compensation.
https://www.epi.org/press/ceo-pay-jumped-nearly-6-in-2024-ceos-made-281-times-as-much-as-the-typical-worker/

History of Federal Minimum Wage Rates Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1938 to 2009 | U.S. Department of Labor
Historical data on the federal minimum wage, which has remained $7.25 per hour since July 24, 2009.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/history/chart

U.S. Department of Labor Report to Congress Shows Continued Growth of Employee Ownership | U.S. Department of Labor
Research and federal reporting on ESOPs, worker cooperatives, and other employee ownership models.
https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ebsa/ebsa20260223

Chronotype and Synchrony Effects in Human Cognitive Performance: A Systematic Review | Chronobiology International
A systematic review examining chronotypes and whether cognitive performance can vary based on an individual's preferred time of day.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40293205/

Right to Disconnect | Australian Fair Work Ombudsman
Information about Australia's legal right for employees to refuse certain work-related contact outside working hours.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/right-to-disconnect

Predictive Scheduling | Oregon Bureau of Labor & Industries
Information about Oregon's scheduling protections for employees of certain large retail, hospitality, and food-service employers.
https://www.oregon.gov/boli/workers/pages/predictive-scheduling.aspx

How COVID-19 Changed U.S. Workplaces | Pew Research Center
Research on remote work, work-life balance, productivity, and how American workplaces changed following the COVID-19 pandemic.
https://www.pewresearch.org/2025/02/12/how-covid-19-changed-u-s-workplaces/

Durée du travail d'un salarié à temps plein | Service-Public.fr, French Government
Information on France's 35-hour statutory reference period for full-time work.
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1911

Directive 2003/88/EC Concerning Certain Aspects of the Organisation of Working Time | European Union
European Union rules addressing working time, daily rest, and minimum paid annual leave.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2003/88/oj/eng

Holiday Pay | U.S. Department of Labor
Federal guidance explaining that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not require employers to provide paid vacation.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/holidays

United States: Foundations for Growth and Competitiveness 2026 | Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
International economic and policy comparisons, including the United States' approach to paid maternity leave.
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/foundations-for-growth-and-competitiveness-2026_40a7532f-en/full-report/united-states_2015aea7.html

Society at a Glance 2024: OECD Social Indicators | Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
International comparisons involving family policy, parental leave, social conditions, and well-being.
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/society-at-a-glance-2024_918d8db3-en.html

Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance 101 | KFF
Research and data on employer-sponsored health insurance and the role employment plays in healthcare coverage in the United States.
https://www.kff.org/health-costs/health-policy-101-employer-sponsored-health-insurance/

Contingent and Alternative Employment Arrangements, July 2023 | U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Federal data on independent contractors and other alternative employment arrangements.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/conemp.htm

Women in the Workplace 2025 | McKinsey & Company and LeanIn.Org
Research examining women's representation, advancement, promotion, and leadership in corporate America.
https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/women-in-the-workplace

Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009 | U.S. Congress
Federal legislation addressing when discriminatory compensation claims accrue under federal employment discrimination laws.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/senate-bill/181

Sexual Harassment in Our Nation's Workplaces | U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
Federal data and research concerning workplace sexual harassment, reporting, and enforcement.
https://www.eeoc.gov/data/sexual-harassment-our-nations-workplaces

Generative AI at Work | Erik Brynjolfsson, Danielle Li, and Lindsey R. Raymond, National Bureau of Economic Research
Research involving more than 5,000 customer-support agents examining the effects of generative AI assistance on worker productivity.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w31161

Generative AI at Work | The Quarterly Journal of Economics
The peer-reviewed published version of the research on generative AI and customer-support worker productivity.
https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/140/2/889/7990658

Changes in Work Time and Well-Being: A Large-Scale Global Study | Nature Human Behaviour
A 2025 peer-reviewed study of 2,896 employees across 141 organizations examining reduced working time without reduced pay and its relationship to burnout, job satisfaction, mental health, and physical health.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-025-02259-6

Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938: Maximum Struggle for a Minimum Wage | U.S. Department of Labor
History of the Fair Labor Standards Act and the development of federal minimum wage, overtime, and working-hour protections.
https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/flsa1938

Fair Labor Standards Act | U.S. Department of Labor, Wage and Hour Division
Federal information about minimum wage, overtime, recordkeeping, and child labor protections under the FLSA.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/flsa

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire | Library of Congress
Historical materials about the 1911 Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire and its significance in American labor and workplace safety history.
https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-triangle-shirtwaist-factory-fire